PDA

View Full Version : Sasha Fierce



MGal
02-18-2023, 01:06 PM
Sasha Fierce is an almost 10 Y.O. mixed breed hound who looks like a Holstein cow! She has always been very healthy, happy, inquisitive and a huge escape artist! She has had some allergy issues primarily due to chicken protein (she no longer gets that) and environmental/seasonal. I’ve had her on Apoquel and gotten Cytapoint injections. She's had number of ear infections, but I understand that is more common in hounds. She has had a hairless spot on her tail for at least a year or longer. It’s about the size of 50 cent piece. Last fall she had a “dietary indiscretion” that gave her bloody diarrhea for a week. When I had her at the ER vet for that, they notified me that she has a grade IV heart murmur.

In the last 2 years, I have noticed increased thirst, which of course also increased her going out for potty. I was convinced it was either Diabetes or Cushings, so I have had her repeatedly tested with CBC’s, urinalysis, and with low dose dex Cushings tests at her primary DVM. All have been negative.

In September 2022, she had her “Senior Wellness” exam which included a CBC and urinalysis. Her DVM reported “an elevation of her liver enzyme ALP. This is a non-specific liver finding and is often associated with chronic inflammation in or around the liver. Her elevation is fairly mild and she is not showing any symptoms of liver disease so it is one we recommend monitoring annually for now. Another change is she has a little protein in the urine.”

In the last 4 months, her thirst has just gone crazy. I cannot keep her water bowls full! Of course, the excessive drinking is followed by needing to go out and potty often. Her appetite also increased. I’ve noticed her weight decreased slightly too. She is though, very active and still very much gets the zoomies and LOVES to go on walks!

Mostly because of the thirst, I had her DVM test her for Cushings and Diabetes again in early December. Cushings was via low dose dex test. Both Cushings and Diabetes tests were again negative.

After the last negative tests, her DVM suggested a pooled urine sample. Her urine protein creatinine ratio tested high, indicating she is excreting excess protein in the urine. Her protein creatinine ratio came back as 1.6. I understand dogs should be < 0.5 Her DVM prescribed Benezapril, which I have not started ,as I wanted to wait until my DACVIM appointment that had been scheduled some months prior.

2 weeks ago, I had the DACVIM appointment for Sasha. An ultrasound was performed. Kidneys and adrenals looked normal, however her liver is enlarged, and there was some “stuff” around her gall bladder. DACVIM was not too concerned about any of those! DACVIM was also not concerned by the protein creatinine ratio of 1.6. Her concern is if the ration is 2.0 or higher. DACVIM did recommend though, changing her diet to low fat, lower protein, and to include grains which I have done.

An adrenal panel ACTH stim test was also performed. DACVIM just called me with results and said Sasha has Atypical Cushings. Her Cortisol had just a minimum increase, but her Hydroxy Progesterone was heightened. I don’t have all the details yet as I am awaiting the write up from the DACVIM.

Now in the 2 weeks since the DACVIM appointment, I have had Sasha on the low fat, lower protein diet. I have also added a daily dose of Fish Oil and give her blueberries often. Sasha seems to be less thirsty and less hungry. When I told the DACVIM this, she suggested holding off on starting the Trilostane (Vetrol) and monitor her for the next few weeks.

I don’t know what to path I should take. Should I be concerned about the protein creatinine ratio even though the DACVIM isn’t? Should I be concerned about the enlarged liver? Should I be concerned about the stuff around her gall bladder? I am not thrilled about starting the Vetrol because I read one potential side effect, albeit rare, would be an Addison’s Crisis; which scares the crap out of me! However, I also know just this diet change alone will not relieve the symptoms to the degree that Vetrol will. Should I start her on the Vetrol? Should I seek a second opinion from another DACVIM?

I have also been reading up on Lignans and Melatonin and that they can help with the Cushings symptoms such as decreasing the Cortisol level. Any thoughts on that?

Like every other pet parent, I just want to do the best by my girl. I lost her littermate at age 4 to AP and Sepsis. I had rescued them when they were just 5 weeks old as their momma had died. I just want my girl to have quality of life for as long as possible.

Thank you so much!

M.

Harley PoMMom
02-18-2023, 03:07 PM
Hi and welcome to you and Sasha Fierce!

Such a unique and awesome name for your sweet girl, and she is so lucky to have you as her pet parent as you have been advocating for her so well! I do have some questions about your girl such as her weight, the dose of Vetoryl the vet prescribed, and was her blood pressure checked? The reason I ask about blood pressure is because if it's high than protein can be lost in the urine.

The urine protein creatinine ratio result of 1.6 would be concerning to me, and if this were me, I would want a better explanation on why the Benezapril or other intervention aren't warranted.

What lab was the adrenal panel ACTH stim test sent to? We generally see these kinds of tests from the University of Tennessee in Knoxville (UTK) so we are familiar with them. When you get the full results could you post them? If you had them done at the University of Tennessee, they come with recommendations so could you post those findings too?

If this were me, and I want you to know that I am not a vet or have any veterinary experience, I would hold off on starting the Vetoryl since it is mainly prescribed for lowering cortisol and Sasha Fierce doesn't have elevated cortisol at this time. Vetoryl is a strong drug and it does have some pretty scary side effects, however, adverse effects are usually not seen unless the proper treatment protocols are not followed. We have many members that are treating their cushdog with Vetoryl/Trilostane and are experiencing success. The key to facilitating safe and effective treatment is an experienced vet and an educated pet owner.

Melatonin and lignans are the treatment for "Atypical Cushing's," this is when one or more of the adrenal hormones are elevated but the cortisol is not. The late and great Dr. Jack Oliver at University of Tennessee at Knoxville (UTK) was a premier scientific authority on the subject of Atypical Cushing's and according to a research paper written by Dr. Oliver titled: "STEROID PROFILES IN THE DIAGNOSIS OF CANINE ADRENAL DISORDERS"
Melatonin ~ Results of in vitro cell culture (human H295R adrenocortical carcinoma cells) studies in our lab revealed that both 21-hydroxylase and aromatase enzymes were inhibited by melatonin. Also, in dogs with adrenal disease that are treated with melatonin, and repeat adrenal steroid panels are done, cortisol levels are consistently reduced, and estradiol levels are variably reduced.

The UTK lab does perform adrenal steroid profile testing and the treatment option sheet that is sent out with the test results does list melatonin and lignans as medical therapies (along with Trilostane and Lysodren). From that sheet:
Lignan. Lignan has phytoestrogenic activity, and competes with estradiol for tissue estrogen receptors, with less biological effect. Lignan also inhibits aromatase enzyme (lowers estradiol) and 3-beta HSD enzyme (lowers cortisol). Use either FLAX HULL (SDG) lignan, or HMR lignan.

I do want you to be aware that the recommended treatment for atypical cushing's at UTK is very controversial among the veterinarian field. And I've had quite a few email discussions with Dr Oliver in the past and he did state that it does take at least 4-6 months to see if any improvement will happen.

I'm including a link to our Resourse Forum where you will find the information I quoted above, plus more regarding Atypical Cushing's: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?198-quot-Atypical-Cushing-s-quot-Congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia-like-syndrome-Hyperestrinism

Also included in that thread are links that state what melatonin and lignans are preferred.

You are doing an awesome job!!!

Hugs, Lori

MGal
02-18-2023, 05:34 PM
Hi Lori,

Thank you SO much for the quick and detailed reply!

I believe her BP was checked. There were so many details and information thrown at me, it's hard to remember. I'll look when I get the results.

Her weight has been pretty consistent 40-43 lbs, but then she went down to 38. Now she back up to around 41-42. In her prime, she was 35 lbs.

I do not know where the test was sent to. I do know it took 2 weeks for the results, so maybe it went to UTK via stagecoach and back! LOL
I will definitely share the results when I received them.

I am going to purchase the Lignan and Melatonin and get her started on those right away. I'm sure much of the traditional Veterinary field sees those as "holistic". But heck, I'd rather try those natural remedies as opposed to a harsh drug like Vetoryl!

Thank you for confirming my suspicions on the Vetoryl as being typically prescribed for lowering cortisol which isn't the issue for her since she has Atypical Cushings. As you mentioned, a VERY strong drug, that if I can avoid, I would like to do so.

I may schedule a second opinion with another DACVIM that I have gone to in the past. I didn't go there for this visit as she is 2 hours away from me. Maybe I'll just send her the results and pay for a virtual consultation.

Thank you!

Have a nice weekend!

Maurine

Squirt's Mom
02-19-2023, 09:24 AM
Hi Maurine and welcome to you and Sasha Fierce!

When I saw her name I gasped...the woman who owns the rescue I work with had a Shepard with the same name! :)

I agree with Lori about treatment...I would opt to wait. I did have one other thought when reading about Sasha Fierce's drinking and peeing. Diabetes Insipidus or water diabetes...it is a rare form of diabetes that has nothing to do with blood sugar but rather with how the body processes water. You would want to know her USG (urine specific gravity) if that hasn't been done in the testing so far. It is a very easy test and non-invasive. A urine sample is collected and that's it from the dog's stand point. The test for DI is very dangerous - a water deprivation test - so most vets simply start treatment with Desmopressin...if things improve then there is the diagnosis. I have a dog with DI and at first I thought he had Cushing's or the sugar based diabetes, Diabetes Mellitus. But a day or two on the treatment for DI and he was 100% better. Treatment is either a daily tablet, nose spray, or eye drops. My Bud has an eye disease as well which required daily drops so he gets the tablets. It's worth discussing with the vet. Here are some links on DI so you can see if anything seems to fit with your sweet girl.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/diabetes-insipidus-in-dogs

https://www.dvm360.com/view/practical-matters-desmopressin-safer-water-deprivation-identify-cause-polyuria-and-polydipsia-dogs

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3846170&pid=11147

https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/article/diabetes-insipidus

I am glad you found us and look forward to learning more about you and your precious Sasha Fierce.

Hugs,
Leslie

Harley PoMMom
02-19-2023, 10:09 AM
...There were so many details and information thrown at me, it's hard to remember. I'll look when I get the results....

I know that feeling, when my boy, Harley, was diagnosed I was so scared and it felt like my head was spinning from all the information that was being given by the vets, so I would take a tape recorder with me to the vet visits, I also would write down questions that I wanted to ask.

Please know we are here for you and Sasha Fierce and we will help in any way we can, also do not hesitate to ask all the questions you want.

Hugs, Lori

MGal
02-19-2023, 03:34 PM
Hi Leslie,

Her DACVIM also mentioned Diabetes Insipidus and I have somewhat suspected that possibility due to her littermate. Right before her littermate died at the too young age of 4, he began drinking and peeing heavily. I had his urine tested at primary DVM and it was very diluted. I was set to take him to the DACVIM that had diagnosed his IBD, but unfortunately I lost him the week before. The suppression test sounds horrible, especially when Sasha Fierce already thinks she is thirsty all the time! I am hoping her primary DVM will prescribe Desmopressin right away or even the DACVIM.

I am glad I found you too! Thanks for having this invaluable and incredible forum!

Maurine

MGal
02-19-2023, 03:42 PM
Lori and Leslie,

I have a lot of pine/fir cones that fall in my yard; way too many to keep picked up. Sasha Fierce eats a LOT of those and of course needle trees are very acidic. She also tries to eat mulch/bark when I take her for walks. Do you know of any condition that would come eating something so acidic? I know mulch/bark is often treated so I really try hard to keep it away from her, but she does sometime get it. With mulch/bark I worry more about her upsetting her GI system.

Squirt's Mom
02-19-2023, 04:20 PM
The biggest concern I am aware of with pine needles is the danger of a puncture in the digestive tract. The oils from the needles can irritate the tract and cause discomfort as well we diarrhea and vomiting. As far as I know the same is true of the pine bark mulch.

MGal
02-19-2023, 04:23 PM
Hi Lori,

GREAT idea to record the discussions with the DVM. I do typically write down a list of questions, but invariably in the discussion (or after) I think of more questions and forget to ask them.

Thanks again!

Maurine

MGal
02-20-2023, 07:05 PM
I received the Lignan and Melatonin. Lignan says to give 1 capsule for each 20 lbs, so she is getting 2. Melatonin bottle has no dosing instructions for dogs. Any idea how many I should give her? She weights approx. 42 lbs.

Thanks

Harley PoMMom
02-20-2023, 07:33 PM
The melatonin is 6mg given every 12 hours, and it is recommended that one use the regular kind not the fast acting or slow releasing type. Good luck!

Hugs, Lori