Lignans and Melatonin?

[Lulu1731]

Does anyone have any experience with their fur baby’s giving them Lignans and Melatonin? what I have read is Melatonin and lignans may also decrease other steroids such as cortisol and androstenedione. Would love to hear from anybody about this please and Thank you.
Laurie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Laurie!

Welcome to you and your baby!

Melatonin and lignans combined in certain doses is the treatment for a form of Cushing's called Atypical in which the cortisol is *normal* but two or more of the intermediate, or sex, hormones are elevated. The only way to diagnose this form is by doing a full adrenal panel thru the University of Tennessee in Knoxville (UTK), their vet school. This is the only place that runs the test for this form of Cushing's.

Using these two supplements in conjunction with either Vetoryl or Lysodren is fine since those intermediate hormones are usually elevated in all dogs with Cushings. But using them alone will not do much if anything for elevated cortisol. So the question is - does your baby have elevated cortisol? Has your baby been given an ACTH or LDDS test to diagnose Cushing's?

If you can tell us about your baby and what has brought you to us here that would be great! Have you noticed changes in your baby? Has your baby had some abnormal labs recently? If so do you mind posting those abnormal results here? Does your baby have any other health issues? Anything you can share with us will help us give you more meaningful feedback.

I am glad you found us and look forward to learning more about your baby very soon!

Hugs,
Leslie

[Lulu1731]

Hello Leslie!

Thank you for your great reply!. Yes last December 2019, I thought she was showing signs of a UTI, what do I know, took her in and in the blood work and urine they found she had diabetes and they wanted her to come back in to do a curve and also test for cushings. She did have an ACTH test for cushings as you will see on her latest medical record that i have attached, Which of course came back that she did have it. This last medical record was a retest for cushings and her curve for diabetes. I can send you her original records from December if you would like but I thought since they did the testing for cushings just this last March i thought that would be enough. Just let me know.She was then put on 1 U 2x's per day insulin and 10 mg 1 x/day of Veteroyl. Since then she has been in for several curves and as of the last one she was increased on insulin to 3U 2 x/day and the vet said she is at the high end of stage 1 cushings so to continue with the 10 mg of Veteroyl. I have her on a new diet. I am feeding her Dr Harvey's Paradigm, here is a description for your info... Paradigm is a “green food” pre-mix that is used as a base for a low-carb diet. A low-carb diet may be helpful for dogs with a variety of health issues and can also serve as an excellent maintenance diet. The formula contains powerful ingredients each of which has been chosen to provide vital nutrition for health and healing.
Paradigm is a revolutionary base-mix dog food that eliminates the prep work of making fresh, healthy and safe home cooked meals. Simply mix with meat and oil for a balanced, homemade meal.
* Paradigm is made with 6 Dehydrated Vegetables, Healthy Herbs & A Multi-Vitamin Supplement
* Contains No Grains
* Contains No Starchy Vegetables
* Made with Minimally-Processed, Fresh Whole Foods

I have heard that you want to stay away from beef and some other meats because of the fat content is not good for cushings so the protein I rotate in her meals are boiled chicken, and baby food chicken and turkey. She is a very picky eater and just when I think I got her meals how she likes them she doesn't eat very good for me, UGH... So now i am resorting to food toppers that work for her having both cushings and diabetes. It is a constant challenge balancing it all out. I was doing the home made meals and it was so so much and with her being so so picky that's when I went with Dr Harvey's. Now just trying to get the taste to her liking, LOL.. what a challenge for sure but for the most part I am getting it.

The changes i have seen in her since all this is she has lost weight, which she did need to do and she seems to be holding at around the 10lb mark where she needs to be. Her water increase comes and goes but of late is on the increase again. So i am checking into a new vet near me that i will be consulting with for another opinion since i have only been to this one vet and that is only cause I had to originally take her into the emergency when this all started.

As far as any other health issues the diabetes was the only other health issue which is between the two more than enough for me.
Please find below her latest med record. Hope you can make sense of it.

03/24/20 20

MEDICAL RECORD
ACTH stim: pre 5.9 post 8.6
a: good control
cont vetory 10mg po sid
recheck glucose curve 3-4 weeks recheck acth stim in 6 months
Zoasis - Cortisol Serial 2 ACTH 03/21/2020 09:20 PM
QUANTITY FEE
Accession Result ID DEBC50895964 Cortisol Serial 2 ACTH
Time 1 Pre
Time 2 Post CORTISOL SAMPLE 1 5.6HIGH CORTISOL SAMPLE 2 8.9
1.0-5.0 g/dL 8.0-17.0 g/dL

Weight 10.406 lb
HYPERADRENOCORTICISM (HAC): Post ACTH results greater than 20 ug/dL (dog) and greater than 15 ug/dL (cat) are consistent with HAC.
NOTE: ACTH results should always be interpreted in light of clinical signs. False positive results may occur with stress or non-adrenal illness. In addition, exogenous steroids may be measured by the assay and result in falsely elevated cortisol levels. Because of wide variability, resting (basal) cortisol should not be used to rule-out
or diagnose HAC.
IATROGENIC HYPERADRENOCORTICISM: Resting cortisol is usually between 1-5 ug/dL with little to no increase in the post-ACTH cortisol level.
HYPOADRENOCORTICISM (HOC): Resting cortisol is usually subnormal (less than 1 ug/dL) or low normal with no increase after ACTH.
POST-LYSODREN: Pre & post cortisol levels after Lysodren loading or while on maintenance Lysodren should be between 1-5 ug/dL.
POST-TRILOSTANE: Pre & post cortisol levels between 1.5-9.1 ug/dL indicate optimal control.
289 BG curve acth stim: 10 mg vetoryl sid - 730 am 2U vetsulin bid 730 am
fed at 715 am
845 504 1048 375 12p 379 108 p 404
a: inadequate control reccd inc vetsulin to 3U bid acth stim to antech


Hugs Back,
Laurie

[Squirt's Mom]

ahhhhh I see you post finally showed up! I hope you have been able to find your thread.

I am a little concerned that your baby (Lulu?) was tested for Cushing's AND Diabetes at the same time. Diabetes can cause false positives on the Cushing's tests so it is always better to start treating the diabetes then look at Cushing's much later if the diabetes is proving difficult - difficult to the point of becoming insulin resistant so that higher and higher doses of insulin won't lower the BG. I am not comfortable helping with diabetes much beyond saying this as I have little experience or learnin' in this area. So I am going to give you some links to folk who are experts in this area. First is our sister site, an online forum like this one. Sadly in forums like ours are not as active as they once were due to Facebook. But there are still people manning the website and the information is still available. Here is the link to K9Diabetes - http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/

If you are on FB there is a good group there as well. BUT bear in mind...you get a lot of opinion VS solid fact in FB groups so find out who the Admins and Moderators are for the group and listen to them until you have learned enough to filter out the nonsense. ;) You can find that group here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/CanineDiabetesSupportandInformation/

Now that I know your baby has diabetes I want to be sure you know that melatonin can lead to insulin resistance so it is not recommended for diabetic dogs. Since it is the combination of melatonin and lignans that have an effect on the hormones associated with Cushing's I wouldn't use either one.

The ACTH results are ok. 8.9 is higher than what the goal is which is 5.4 but if all the signs are better then I wouldn't worry too much about that. A little too high is much better than a little too low. ;) At 10 lbs, the 10mg is a good dose so I would continue that for now.

As for diet, other than low fat there is no "best" diet for a dog with Cushing's. Since diabetes is in play that is where the focus for diet needs to be. Any meats are fine for a cush pup as are veggies and fruits that are safe for dogs to eat. No need to avoid beef or any other protein she will eat. Just look for the lowest fat possible. My stores here have beef as low as 93% low fat and that would be fine for a cush pup. As long as she's eating enough to manage the diabetes that is the only thing I would worry about. I disagree about the low carb diet tho. Carbs provide much needed fuel when illness is present so in dogs with Cushing's only carbs should not be avoided. However carbs are different when dealing with diabetes so again I will leave that up to those more experience with diabetes. ;) I've cooked for many of my dogs and currently am again. I always use canine nutritional consultants to work up a diet for them based on their specific health issues, age, breed, environment, etc. Monica Segal out of Canada is who I use and have always been pleased with the results....and my babies LOVE the food! :)

You have my utmost respect for dealing with diabetes....I work with special needs and hospice babies thru rescues and that is the one disease that scares me to pieces! So those who manage that balancing act have all my admiration.

Hugs,
Leslie

[Lulu1731]

Hello Lesie,
I guess I never told you my babys name, her name is Cricket. She is a toy Poodle.I thank you for your reply. I have another appointment with a new vet May 9th. I am compiling a list of questions and will be taking these questions you are asking to that vet. I will let you know how it all goes. I have stopped giving her the melatonin and lignin’s. I will for sure consult with the new vet about them. Thank you for your info regarding diet. As a general rule I do follow the diabetes diet. Yes it is very tough having both and I am hoping this new vet will give better direction for her. is there a web site I can go to for this Monica Segal out of Canada?
I have registered for the k9diabetes forum and will direct my diabetes questions there. Thank you for that as well. As far as the FB page you recommend I am already a member there and have gotten great help there as well.
I have the utmost respect for you with your resting of special needs babies. About 14 years ago i was with a rescue in Calif, where i lived at the time but now i live in CO, I did not rescue special needs but I did rescue a lot of babies, dogs & cats. It was a great fulfilling experience I will treasure always.

Hugs back,
Laurie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Laurie,

You can find Monica here - https://www.monicasegal.com/

I hope the new vet is just what you and Cricket need! Please keep us updated!

Hugs,
Leslie

[Lulu1731]

Hi Leslie,
Well my Cricket had to go to the hospital yesterday morning. She has the runs and would not eat. She is still there, her glucose was up to 480 yesterday morn when they tested her. This morning when they called me for an update at 6:30 am she is still not interested in food but now she has blood in her runny stools. Her glucose is down to 300. She is on it liquids and antibiotics, no vomiting. They will be doing an ultrasound later this morning as X-rays didn’t show anything. They say when they slightly press on her belly there is no problem but when they press deeper she is uncomfortable. So I am hoping the ultrasound will help clear things up. I am praying nothing serious is found with her pancreas. I will update you as I know more.

Hugs,
Laurie

[Squirt's Mom]

Please let us know what you learn when you can! Prayers rising for your sweet Cricket and you too!

[Joan2517]

Hi Laurie,

Just want to say that I hope Cricket recovers and is back home with you soon. I know how stressful it is when they are hospitalized, we feel helpless and just want them back with us. Keeping you and your darling girl in my thoughts...

[Lulu1731]

Thank you Joan! I sure do miss her.