My Annie, 15 1/2 pheochromocytoma - Annie is now an angel running free

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

Been out of pocket today plus having connection problems but wanted you to know you and Annie are on my mind and in my prayers. Hope you have better news to share when you come home today.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

She didn't get sick this afternoon and she had a solid poop outside. Has more of a smile on her face but couldn't make it up the steps and refused her treat.

Both vets said don't worry about the food - let her stomach settle.

I really think it was the probiotics. wow.

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I'm so sorry that Annie wasn't feeling well. I'm glad to hear that she is improving. Sending positive thoughts and prayers that this was just a temporary setback and that she is on the road to a full recovery.

[AlisonandMia]

So relieved to hear that Annie is feeling a bit better!:)

Does sound like it could have been the probiotics but I think the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction is a possibility too - or maybe a combination of the two in some way.:eek:

When I get the chance I will ask my bird vet about the possibility that giving probiotics during antibiotic therapy is potentially harmful (-v- simply fruitless) - she will know as she is very well up on the latest thing and also because this sort of problem would be so serious in a bird (because of their insane metabolic rate birds must eat and absorb food all the time to simply survive).

With regards to giving probiotics during the antibiotic course although you'd think that although giving the probiotics away from the antibiotics would give you the best chance of success, wouldn't the next dose of antibiotic come and wipe out the probiotics anyway? However my father, who always had absolutely awful problems with antibiotics (any antibiotic no matter how narrow spectrum and unlikely to cause problems in 99.99% of people) was greatly helped by eating live-culture yoghurt while on the antibiotics.

Alison

[frijole]

Alison, Maybe I misunderstood the article but I took it to mean that the probiotics made the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction kick in. ??? Here is the whole article http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijnw/vol2n1/probiotics.xml

Going to see if she'll eat a hard boiled egg white in a bit...

[AlisonandMia]

I have always understood the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction to be a result of the existing (presumably the pathogenic but maybe some others too) organisms dying off and releasing their toxins into the system in a sudden wave. Not necessarily a result of the probiotics - but maybe killing off probiotic organisms could cause, or contribute to, something similar?

You can certainly get the same thing with candida infections - treating systemic/GI candida, particularly with drugs, can often result in the symptoms getting worse before they get better for that reason. I've known two people with true systemic candida and it is a bizarre (and nasty) condition - strangely enough in most cases (fundamentally healthy) in humans best treated "gently" via diet (avoiding stuff that makes the candida happy) rather than clobbering it with chemicals, at least at the outset - because of the Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction.

Alison

[frijole]

She is really lethargic. No luck with food - not even close.

She just vomited - clear, sort of thick - like spit. When she went potty right before that she attempted to poop and these two small light yellow turds were the best she could do.

I assume this means she doesn't have anything in her. Vet in Lincoln wasn't concerned about electrolytes when we talked. She vomited twice earlier today - no food just bile. She ate yesterday almost normal quantities - she just hesitated in doing it.

Thoughts? I ask because I really don't want to take her to the old vet here and haven't found a replacement. :(:confused::(

[AlisonandMia]

How's her drinking?

Alison

[frijole]

Yesterday she was up to 11 oz. Today 4 oz. so far

[AlisonandMia]

If she is still drinking a bit then rice water might be the answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_water. Looks like you want to add about 1/2 teaspoon of salt to 2 cups of water. http://rehydrate.org/solutions/homemade.htm

Rice water is particularly recommended to stop diarrhea - which isn't Annie's problem. I suggested rice water because she might find it a lot more palatable than other rehydration solutions.

Alison

[frijole]

Never done this... are you saying add salt to the rice water or as an alternative to ice water? I'm game for anything right now.

[AlisonandMia]

What I'd do is cook some rice - boil it to death with plenty of water (keep an eye on it if you are anything like me!:eek:), then strain it and discard the actual rice but keep the water. Then add salt to the rice water at the rate of 1/2 tsp to two cups. Apparently it shouldn't taste any saltier than tears.

Alison

[frijole]

Got it. How do you know all this stuff? I can't thank you enough.

She kind of scared me. We started the evening with her having a normal poop and smiling and she really didn't do anything but she would get up walk a bit and stop like she didn't know where she was going or she couldn't go further. Then she'd plop down on the ground (hind legs realllll weak tonight)

Both vomits today were not large amounts - yellow bile. Tonight was the clear. Assume that is from water.

Boiling the rice now and yes.... I often forget when I am boiling things but because I normally go to bed right now I won't forget. ;)

[AlisonandMia]

Boiling the rice now and yes.... I often forget when I am boiling things but because I normally go to bed right now I won't forget.

I only get through my life moderately disaster free by setting the alarm on my cell phone very frequently!:p:o

[frijole]

Another question - the vet in Lincoln suggested I give her pepcid ac which I had already done at lunch. I had to pry her mouth open and force it down but I did it. Should I do it again since it's been 10 hrs? I also have one of those cerenium (sp?) anti vomit pills.

????

[AlisonandMia]

Have you still got some Reglan - she seemed to do pretty well on that, didn't she?

BTW, I've just found that things like Pepcid can cause drowsiness (and dizziness too) after my daughter had that reaction to a related med (Zantac).

I've heard that Cerenia can actually cause vomiting sometimes - which is a bit strange. Probably something that happens with some dogs and not others. Has she had Cerenia before?

Alison

[frijole]

I have the equivalent of Reglan and she was taken off that when put on these antibiotics. She seemed ok on it. No she has never taken the vomit pill - Haley did. Interesting on the Pepcid...given her weakness maybe that isn't a good idea? Sigh. I could let her rest and wait til morning... just trying to decide which would give her greater comfort. She is sprawled out in Haley's bed and I have to check for breathing though her eyes are open.

[AlisonandMia]

Can you contact the Lincoln vet and ask if Reglan would be ok with the antibiotics? I'd think it should be but it would be good to check.

Alison

[frijole]

I will try - its an emergency answering service. I forgot to ask when I spoke with her today if its ok to call her home directly. Dang my memory...

[AlisonandMia]

I think Reglan (tried and true) could be the best bet - as long as it is compatible with her other meds.

Alison

[frijole]

Poor new vet...said she was more comfortable sticking w/pepcid for now since she has had that for a couple mos now w/out problems. Think she was afraid of the a/bs and probably didn't know off the top of her head.

I got her to take the pepcid. I sure hope she is better in the am because right now she looks pretty sad. Eyes are glazed. Maybe shes just tired but I am concerned.

I called a friend and got the name of a local vet in case I need to take her in the a.m.

[frijole]

Morning update - she was zonked and slept thru night. I had to wake her up to go outside. Still weak. I carried her up and down the 2 patio steps. She didn't go near the rice water or regular water so I put some on her tongue to get her drinking. She turned her head at the rice water (dang - I was up all night cooking :p) but did start lapping at regular water after a few licks on my finger. Drank about an oz.

Seemed like she was looking for food so I got brave and took out some cut up chicken breast (an oz) and she ate it. Gave her a bit more but she didn't eat it. I did manage to get her to take another pepsid in a pill pocket. So there is improvement.

I'm driving home at lunch to check on her again.

[Casey's Mom]

Good luck today Kim. I know how hard it is to go to work when our pups are sick but on the other hand they probably appreciate the quiet. Good news that she took some chicken and drank some water.

Waiting for updates,

Many hugs being sent your way,

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' Kim,

Good to hear that Annie drank and ate a bit! :cool :cool::)

I can only imagine how stressful it is when they won't eat. :( Squirt has always been such a piggy and the times she's not very interested in food are when I know something is bothering her. If she turns down a meal, I worry; if she turns down the second meal, my twitcher starts up at full tilt! :eek: I am so, so sorry you are having to deal with this day after day. :( And having to leave Annie to go to work?! OMG....what a hard, hard thing to do! I'm a woos and would be calling in sick! :o;) You are a strong mama!

When Squirt was getting ready for this surgery, the doc said to give her Pedialyte to help hydrate her. I was supposed to give 2ccs every four hours with a syringe...HA! That was a joke! :rolleyes::p So I put it in her drinking water...the full amount she was supposed to take by syringe. She drank the bowl each day so I know she got the electrolytes. Annie may not drink the water like that but Squirt adjusted to the slight taste difference quickly. So since she will drink a bit of plain water, you might try starting to add a bit of Pedialyte a little at at time. And, you might have better luck with getting some in her with a syringe than I did Squirt! ;) Use the clear, plain variety, not the flavored ones.

Wish I had some good ideas for you and Annie. But I do have hope and love, as well as faith in you, to offer in abundance.

Sending healing white light for you and Annie, and continuing to hold you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[lulusmom]

Thinking of you and Annie and praying that she turns the corner today. You both need to catch a break and I'm praying that you do.

[marie adams]

Hi Kim,

Yeah!!! She ate and drank something so that is a good sign. Oh how I know the feeling of going to work and coming back to check. I was lucky if I couldn't, my daughter could come home at lunch to check on Maddie. Like Leslie was saying about Squirt, Maddie makes sure she doesn't miss a meal; so if she doesn't want to eat I know something is wrong.

Sending good positive thoughts your way!!!:):)

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I'm glad that Annie is doing a little better. You are both in my thoughts and prayers.

[addy]

Hi Kim,

Hoping and praying Annie eats something today and I am so very sorry you still have to worry so.

I used to give Zoe her probiotic either about 2 hours after her metronidazole or when I was lucky to give her the antibiotic once a day, I gave the probiotic with the opposite meal. It did not bother her. I am so sorry the probiotic made Annie so sick.

I know whenever the doctor put me on Augmenten or Cipro, gosh, after a few days, I was feeling pretty sick myself. :(

Best thoughts for you and Annie,

Addy

[frijole]

Annie says thanks for the kind words. Slow start this a.m. when she ate 1 oz of chicken. At lunch she ate a treat - was still kind of scary to watch but she ate about 1/3 cup of chicken breast finely diced.

Tonight she was standing up when I got home! That was HUGE. She's been laying down in the dreaded "just shoot me and get it over with" position for 2 days. Whew. She ate some more chicken and a bit of canned tripe which just arrived today thank God. Stinks but great for her and something new!

She went down the steps by herself but doesn't even attempt to go up them.

[BestBuddy]

Kim,

Healing is a slow process and you just have to wait.:( You are seeing some good signs so lets hope there are more to come.

Jen

[Squirt's Mom]

So glad to hear that Annie is acting as if she feels better tonite! That has got to be huge relief for you. I hope you both have an uneventful and restful nite, and an even better day tomorrow.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

So glad to hear that Annie is acting as if she feels better tonite! That has got to be huge relief for you. I hope you both have an uneventful and restful nite, and an even better day tomorrow.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Forgot to thank you for reminding me to buy pedialyte. Got some tonight and threw it in her water. She is drinking pretty good today. Thanks so much.

[Squirt's Mom]

:D:D:D:D Cool! :D:D

[Casey's Mom]

Wow that is a relief!! Great news that she is feeling better, my groomer told me about pedialite for Desi after a night of vomiting. Works wonders.

Glad Annie is eating!!:D:D:D:D:D

Love and hugs,

[frijole]

Continued progress. Today she ate 1/2 can dog food in the am and another 1/2 can pm. I just gave her some chicken breast because she needs to gain weight. So she ate MORE than a normal day's food! HURRAH

If she looks up to it in the a.m. I'm going to give her the last 1 1/2 days worth of antibiotics.

I promise - no probiotics for a bit.... too scary for now.

She is going up the steps by herself - still not 100% but much better.

[Carol G]

Such good news! Good thoughts still coming from here for you two.

Carol & Atty Cat

[BestBuddy]

Yay Annie.

I am so glad Kim, I know what a relief it is to have them eat a decent amount of food.

Jen

[Franklin'sMum]

Woo Hoo Annie!! :D:D Way to go, Kim! Very happy to hear Miss Annie seems to be feeling much better,
Lots of love
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[Loladog]

I'm very happy to hear that Annie is feeling better.:D Dealing with Lola's limited appetite lately, I know what a great feeling it is to see them eat!:) I'll keep my fingers crossed that things continue to improve.

[frijole]

Thanks for caring and the support - it means a WHOLE lot to me. I didn't even tell my family about this past weekend... you guys understand more...

I think her problem with food is psychological after the last several episodes. She trusts food that I hand feed her and that has never been an issue so I get her started and then she'll eat ok. I am sure with time this will go away.

[sunimist]

YEA for Annie girl!! Soooo glad she is doing better. :D

(((HUGS))) to you both!

Shelba and Suni~~

[Squirt's Mom]

So glad to hear that Annie is eating more...even if it takes you getting her started! :D

Ya know, Crys developed a psychological thing about eating after she was changed to that awful prescription diet for the crystals in her urine and I added some of her meds to it. It must have been really terrible because she would miss meals and when she did eat, it was only a small amount. After we went to a cooked menu and stopped putting meds in her feed, she got a little better slowly. I changed her bowl, just because I found one I liked, and she started eating much better after that. So Annie may have a trust issue now, too, but hopefully she will be able to put that behind her soon.

Keep up the good work!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Dollydog]

It is great news that she's eating better....hope it just continues to get better from now on....
Jo-Ann

[marie adams]

Hi Kim,

We are so happy to hear Annie is doing so much better eating. I remember there have been some times I had to start Maddie out hand feeding and then she would eat. :)

I bet your stress level has come down a whole lot!!!:D

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
I've been away for a bit. Glad to read that Annie is doing better:D Hope she continues to get better and feel better.

Keeping everything crossed.

[zoesmom]

Yippppppeeeeee! Baby steps . . . if that's what it takes. Hoping for even better news tomorrow. :D:D:D Sue

[frijole]

This has been a real roller coaster ride. She'll have good days then not so good.. Today she ate great but I had to hand feed her again. She also had the whole body shakes this a.m. and is sneezing. After all those antibiotics? ha.

Anyway - I heard from Dr Lomas at K State by email and I updated her. She talked with Dr Harkins who was the head Doc on Annie's treatment. He heads up the Small Animal Internal Med dept. He thinks they should see her again since she has lost some progress (not fully where she was prior to last Saturday). :(

I am heading up an internet platform conversion at work and it was due to launch this week but was delayed... not a good time but I might just have to get in my car again and drive south for peace of mind that the helico is gone.

I haven't responded yet... Tonight she seems fine but like I said, I had to spoon feed her. She turned her nose up to TRIPE. ha. After she ate 1/2 can she wanted more!

My nerves are shot but I am blessed because she is eating and better. Its the yo-yo-ing that is doing me in. Gotta figure out when to go....

[gpgscott]

Wow Kim,

I have been away for a few days and I see that you have been through a lot with Annie.

Good to hear that she has been eating better. Positive thoughts and prayers for you both.

Scott

[addy]

Hi Kim,

Sorry to hear about the roller coaster ride. You must be mentally wiped out.

I'll keep praying for Annie and that she makes a turn around for good.

Hopefully Kansas State will have some answers for you.

Hugs and healing vibes,

Addy and Zoe

[frijole]

Sorry - didn't mean to come across doom and gloom... just tired. I am confident that we know what is wrong with her. Helicobacter

I did a whole lot of reading on the helicobacter last night and I am sure they want to make sure the antibiotics did their job. It doesn't always and sometimes it comes back so I am sure they are doing this to see how far along she is and also remember... the throat sores had never been seen before... that endoscopy guy is just dying to get a next series of photos to see if they went away ;):p And I don't blame him.

Annie needed prodding this a.m. but then consumed her entire meal.

[addy]

Not to worry, you aren't doom and gloom. Last year, they thought Zoe had heliobactor (sorry if I spelled it wrong) and the vet gave me a site to read about it. It did indeed say it can sometimes come back. As it turned out, Zoe did not have it.

The good news is Annie ate again!!!!!!!! Hurrah!!!

Kim, you are amazing. Annie is so very lucky to have you and you are very lucky to have her:)

Addy

[caroleh]

Hi Kim:

I am in the same boat as you are. My Schnauzer Fritz was diagnosed with Cushings and I am about to fall apart. He has been on Lysogen for almost a month now and they don't see a significant change in his levels. I think they are wondering if it is perhaps pituitary as well as adrenal. I hope you have a vet you have faith in. That is the key. The vet I used for 20 plus years never saw Fritz's problem. Fritz is 8 or 9. He was a rescued dog. I have changed vets twice and pray for a solution. I am prayerful for your Annie and I hope the treatment works for you. Did your vet give you prednisone should she have problems from the Lysogen? The second vet that started Fritz on Lysogen didn't discuss any problems that could arise from the treatment. I hope to hear from you and I hope to learn that Annie is responding to the treatment and will be good as new again.

Carole

[MyRudy]

Kim:

I have just read all 54 pages or your and Annie's ordeal and it is mind-boggling that you have had so many left turns along the way.

It seems your local vet is of the opinion 'she's old and she's gonna die anyway' and has no thought whatsoever to her quality of life. I would fire him too!

Sure looks like you are on the right track now with the Vet in Lincoln (what a sweetheart she is!) as well as the knowledgable staff at KState, so I am praying for a quick recovery for Annie and then a no cushings diagnosis:D

Donna

[frijole]

Kim:

I have just read all 54 pages or your and Annie's ordeal and it is mind-boggling that you have had so many left turns along the way.

It seems your local vet is of the opinion 'she's old and she's gonna die anyway' and has no thought whatsoever to her quality of life. I would fire him too!

Sure looks like you are on the right track now with the Vet in Lincoln (what a sweetheart she is!) as well as the knowledgable staff at KState, so I am praying for a quick recovery for Annie and then a no cushings diagnosis:D

Donna
WOW. Not even I could do that! :D Yeah.. ordeal would describe it. Thanks

We head to Lincoln tomorrow after work and I'll drive to K State from there Tuesday early a.m. Long day Tuesday.

[littleone1]

I hope everything goes well on Tuesday, Kim.

[frijole]

Last check in before heading to K State. Annie studied real hard for the tests today so am counting on her to pass them all. :D Hugs to all our furry friends. Kim & Annie

[Casey's Mom]

Good luck honey - keep us posted!!

Love and hugs,

[AlisonandMia]

Good luck and travel safe!:)

Alison

[sunimist]

Good luck Kim and stay safe. Prayers and good thoughts go with you and Annie.

Shelba and Suni~~

[gpgscott]

Tavel safely Kim, you both will be in our thoughts and prayers.

Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Be safe on the road today...you have a carload of folks with you and a caravan following in spirit. Hoping for good news!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

I brought my laptop this time. I dropped her off and they are doing blood work to check triglicerides to see if they are still high. Also want to revisit the tumor that is on her adrenal glands to see if that is causing the back leg issues and some of the cushings symptoms. They don't think it is cushings but that the tumor might be wreaking this havoc. It is small but they want to be sure. I could just vomit.

I went to the student book store and bought a purple scarf that says Kansas State on it so Miss Annie can pay tribute to these fine folks on Saturdays in the fall. For a Husker fan this is a real honor.

Then I found a wonderful bistro where I had a Snickers Latte! HAHA Then a wonderful Panini.... going for comfort today. Got another hour to kill before the call me with any results.

Hugs to you all for those messages... I felt so alone driving down here and now I know you are all sitting right on my shoulder and whispering in my ear. Thanks. Beyond words thanks. xoxox Kim and Annie

[Squirt's Mom]

oooooo...that Snicker's Latte was soooo good! I snuck a sip while you weren't looking! Woo-doggies, that was good! :D

[MyRudy]

A Husker's fan buying a KState scarf.............wow!

So good to hear about your latte and panini, sometimes I think we forget to treat ourselves because we are so worried about our little buddies.

Waiting anxiously to hear your results (so glad you brought the laptop!).

Praying for good news for both of us..............

[frijole]

Funny store as I kill time...

A Meadowlark dive bombed into my car this a.m. about 30 miles outside of Manhattan. I forgot about it and when waiting in the lobby some kid came in and said "Who owns the Nebraska SUV with the bird on the grill" I about died. That bird crashed into the grill of my car and only the LEGS were inside the grill - the entire bird was displayed on the front of my car like a hood ornament. :eek:

Some guy from NE thankfully took a bag and removed the dead bird from my car because I wasn't sure if I could. Pretty funny. I got it on film. :D

[zoesmom]

Waiting for today's report right along with you (sans Snickers latte and panini, darn it.) I can just imagine how that new hood ornament looked (so sad for the poor wittle meadowlark, tho!) :eek: Sue

[Harley PoMMom]

Sorry I am so late with this message....wishing Annie the best of luck today with her tests.

Big hugs to you both,
Lori

[addy]

Hi Kim,

Hoping for an angel on your shoulder and good news for Annie. You deserve another snickers latte!!!!!!!!

We all care,

Addy and Zoe

[labblab]

I'm another member of Miss Annie's Cheering Section!! :p :p :p :p

And now that the Huskers are done (well, after this season, right?) with the Big-12, it won't even be a conflict of interest for Annie to sport her stylish purple scarf...;) :) :D

So anxious to read your updates, along with the rest of the crew.
Marianne

[marie adams]

Hi Kim,

I love your stories--always a good laugh--so nice you still have that sense of humor when you are stressed out about Annie.:D:D

We are hoping for the best news for little Annie--you both deserve it!!!!:)

[frijole]

We left Kansas at 2 and are now home. YEAH.

Let me start the update by saying that the last 2 days Annie ate normally and as a result she was her perky self. I am praying that since we are back to where we were 2 weeks ago that we can just maintain and start to put weight back on.

So the vet was shocked at how great she looked. On to the testing... they were not convinced that my probiotics caused the setback last week. They were concerned that it is a pheochromocytoma tumor. These tumors on the adrenal glands are not the kind that cause adrenal cushings, however, they can cause the hind leg issues, inappetance, and cushings like symptoms! The symptoms can come and go. Details here:

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/pheochromocytoma.aspx

So they wanted to do some bloodwork and another ultrasound to look at that adrenal tumor to make sure it hadn't grown. It has only been 3 weeks since the last ultrasound but good news is it is relatively small and is unchanged from the last time. (they can be invasive) The liver nodules seen on the last 2 ultrasounds are GONE.

They also were concerned that the triglicerides had been high and checked those and she went from over 300 to 84 so that was great. Blood pressure is normal. Heart murmur remains 4/6

They could not dx the tumor as pheochromocytoma because it is the symptoms that give it that label. She has some of the symptoms but since her blood pressure was normal it did not get labelled as such. The thing is that there are times when she does seem to be breathing faster. I was instructed to take her immediately for a blood pressure check if I see that OR the should another eating episode occur.

This means I need to find someone local because by the time I get an appt in Lincoln and drive down there.... too late. I'm going to ask the Lincoln vet if she has any recommendations.

Curious - how do they take a dog's blood pressure?

Oh - forgot - she had actually lost a bit of weight... is 14.3 down from 14.5 last visit 3 weeks ago. I fasted her this a.m. but fed her when I got home and she ate just fine.

So we aren't out of the woods but she said to just keep doing what I'm doing and if she continues to be weird about the food to try switching to Royal Canine for Min. Schnauzers. I laughed at that since my previous local vet scoffed at me when I went in to request that Rx Royal Canine food for easy digestion. He said they didn't find it to be helpful and that Eukenuba and Science Diet (he stocks them) were much more beneficial. I have a 15 lb bag of SD ZX kibble of which Annie ate no more than 2 kibbles. Smart dog. :D

So that is what I did on my vacation day today. The Snickers Latte was great but getting to take her home was the real treat. I had read enough about phenos to know that if she was dx-ed I might have to make an immediate decision to remove it and hang around for another 3-5 days while she recovered. Thank you GOD.

[frijole]

ps.. forgot! They said given her appearance they are convinced the helicobacter is gone and that they had never had a case where it didn't work. The only way to really check is via endoscope and they did NOT want to put her thru that again.


I love this vet. You should have seen their faces when I pulled out the K State scarf and put it on Annie before we left. Priceless.

[MyRudy]

Yay, that is great news on the tumor and the now non-existant nodules and no more helio. So good to hear she is on the road to recovery! And LOL @ their faces when you put on the KState scarf:p

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

This sounds like a positive visit to KS today! I am so glad things turned like they did! I hope Annie's appetite is back for good and her starts to gain some weight back.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[littleone1]

I'm glad things went so well today for you and Annie, Kim. It sounds like Annie is just about back to her old self again. I hope this continues.

[labblab]

Great news under the circumstances, Kim. I know you are not worry-free, but how great to have Annie home with you and EATING!!!!!!

Woo-Hoo!!!!!!!!!!! :D :) :D
Marianne

[Casey's Mom]

Great, great news!! I too would have to go that far to Michigan state 6 1/2 hours just for an ultrasound so I know how you feel about not having a specialist close to you - you have done the best thing for Annie.

Love the scarf image!!:):):)

[sunimist]

Oh Happy Day!! Love the good news, Kim! Annie is such a lucky little girl to have a mom like you!

Mucho (((HUGS)))

Shelba and Suni~~

[Roxee's Dad]

Love the good news :D Keep it coming.

[BestBuddy]

Kim,
I have that good feeling. Lets hope it continues.
Jenny

[Harley PoMMom]

Curious - how do they take a dog's blood pressure?




How Is a Blood Pressure Done?

Your veterinarian may need to clip a small amount of hair on the underside of the paw of either the front or back leg over the site of an arterial pulse. Conductive gel is then placed on the shaved part of the paw, and a sensor is then placed on the paw, with the gel being used to conduct the vibrations of the pulse. The technique for measuring pressure varies somewhat depending upon the instrument used. A blood pressure cuff is placed above the sensor, which is attached to a machine used to amplify the sound of the pulse. Animal legs are too small for a stethoscope, so the amplifier and sensor is used instead.

As when you get your own blood pressure taken, the cuff is inflated until the beating pulse is no longer heard. Then air is slowly allowed to escape the cuff. At the point the beating pulse is heard again, that is the blood pressure. In people, the first sound of the pulse is called the systolic pressure. As more air is let out of the cuff, there is a point when the sound of the pulse suddenly becomes louder. This is the diastolic pressure. However, when using a doppler in animals, it is often difficult to detect this volume change. For this reason, the blood pressure is often expressed as a single value. Other non-doppler blood pressure machines use electronic methods to detect the blood pressure. These machines can determine both systolic and diastolic pressure.

Most normal systolic values range from 110 to160 mmHg and most diastolic values range from 55 to100 mmHg. Hypertension is defined as pressures > 170/110 mmHg. Hypotension is defined as pressures < 90/50 mmHg in the awake animal. Normal MAP pressure is usually calculated as the average of systolic and diastolic pressures. Trends in repeated pressures are more significant than results of single measurements.
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/blood-pressure-in-dogs/page1.aspx

This is how Harley's BP is done, we have found out that he is less stressed if we do the BP reading from his rear leg.

So happy to hear that the helicobacter is gone!! And we will continue to send healing and positive energy your way. Give sweet Annie some gentle hugs from Harley and me.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[frijole]

Yesterday Annie didn't finish her am meal. She didn't want it at all in the pm (though she ate a treat with enthusiasm). I switched flavors and she ate it all.

This am she only ate 1/3 of her 1/2 cup.

Taking her in to a totally new local vet this am for a BP check. Hate to have to involve yet another vet but I can't drive 2 hrs each way for a BP check.. I used all my vacation time on these visits. Now using sick time.

Not sure if I am praying for High BP or not. If high we know its a pheo. If not ???

[littleone1]

I hope everything is good, Kim.

[Squirt's Mom]

Got ya'll in my thoughts and prayers! Looking forward to a good report!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[lulusmom]

Sending positive thoughts your way, girlfriend.

[addy]

Sending the best vibes and positive thoughts I can.

I know what you mean about taking time off from work. Thank goodness I still have a furlough day very other week. If business ever gets better, I won't want to give up my furlough day, it is always used for vet day!!!!!:eek::):(:mad::D

Crossing my fingers and holding my breath for you, Kim.:)

Addy and Zoe

[frijole]

I will tell you the full story tonight... since I missed about 3 hrs of work today over this... I talked to 4 vets and visited 3! :eek: There is only one place that had the eqpt to do the BP testing and they were the ones who were going to put my first dog Haley on lysodren with no acth test and no followup testing. :eek:

Swore I'd never go back but I had no choice. They said she was normal BP 166/88 and PR 123. I emailed my K State vet. Annie seemed very happy and perky throughout the process even though she spent the entire morning in a cat's cage... details tonight. :D

[MyRudy]

Good news on the BP! Can't wait to hear 'the rest of the story', lol!

Poor Annie, I hope she gets back to regular eating ASAP.

[Dollydog]

Will be waiting for the full story.....

[Harley PoMMom]

Good news on the BP! Can't wait to hear 'the rest of the story', lol!

Poor Annie, I hope she gets back to regular eating ASAP.

Ditto!

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Good thing you didn't burn that bridge!!!!!

Addy

[frijole]

Good thing you didn't burn that bridge!!!!!

Addy

Actually good thing the vet that I scared the crap out of by asking hard questions isn't the one I saw today. :D:D:D

[frijole]

First off - I had no CLUE that getting a dog's blood pressure check required equipment that costs like $10,000 and so not every clinic has the ability.

I also want you to know I do not live in "Gooberville". :D The town has 25000 people so while rural it isn't tiny.

To my knowledge there are 5 vet clinics in town. One of them I disqualified because the place is a dump and the guy has a big COW on his sign... heard he is old old old and deals mostly with livestock. ha.

OK so make that 4 options. First one is the biggest in town has 3 vets and the most modern equipment. This is the vet that told me to give Haley three days of lysodren and then go on weekly maintenance and we had never done an acth test and when I asked about it she said she'd have to call her specialist. I asked who that was and she said "the lab". :eek: They had the lysodren waiting for her and I never went back.

The second place is where I went next and treated Haley for 4 yrs with Cushings. Things have gone down hill with Annie's whole debacle and my once compassionate vet one day just gave up on her... or perhaps me. They also have 3 vets

Third place is new building - don't know anything about them.

Fourth place was on my way to work and a friend takes her dog there. So since it was en route I stopped in this a.m. at 7:30. Big sign said Open at 8 Close at 5. Now what kind of vet keeps those hours? No one can drop off before or after work?!

So I was desparate and waited knowing I would be late for work. Gal shows up and I start blubbering.. yes crying.. and she informs me they only have one vet now and that he was at a sow farm (yep) and wouldn't be in until 11 or so. Well knowing I would have to pick her up by 5 and all... I decided to just drive to the town where I work and get her tested.

So I drive the 20 miles to work all the while Annie thinks she is on another wonderful car adventure. :D I find the vet clinic and NOW we are in Gooberville. Town of 4000. Cat on the counter. Gal on the phone for 10 minutes while I waited. No other sign of life.

Finally she came up to the counter, I explained my need for help and she got all concerned and said I need to get a doctor to speak with you. So a very nice young man, Doogie Howserish, who looked like he just left Kansas State Univ Vet School yesterday came up to help.

When I started the L O N G story I was encouraged that he knew what a phenochromocytoma was! That is because he just graduated I just know it. Anyway he said... I'm sorry but we don't have the capability of doing BP tests. I was like :eek: He told me that I could drive to Omaha. Great. Then he mentioned the first vet clinic that I fired. Sigh.

I went to my car and called vet clinic #3 where I know no one. Again, the receptionist got the vet and this guy suggested I go to Omaha to the K State affiliate office (not sure how this office works other than they mark up everything 20%). He also said based on what he heard that he would insist on more antibiotics because the helicobacter can be tough to get rid of... he also then said that there is no way K State would know if that tumor was malignant or not without an aspiration.. and he told me that cancer is very funny as it never does the same thing twice. Anyway... after all that encouragement I learned he doesn't have the equipment...

So I took poor Annie inside the Gooberville vet and asked if they could board her while I went to work and figured out what I was going to do. They were happy to help.

I had no choice but to try the local vet with the capability even if they are clueless about lysodren. They told me to bring her in at noon. So I left work, picked up Annie and the fine folks did not charge me for her stay in the cat cages! Yep.. that's where she spent her morning. ha ha ha

We take off down the road and she is loving life and all smiles. I fill out paperwork at the vet clinic because I don't want them to know I have been there before and fired them. :o

At last a vet comes to help us. There are 3 here. A man who specialises in orthopedics, his wife, and the gal who wanted to consult the lab about what an acth test was. Thank god I got the wife.

I started telling Annie's story and she stopped and asked if I have a medical background. :D:D:D:D I said, no I learned it all from a cushings forum!!! Anyway - she took Annie back for her BP test and told me that she is a certified accupuncturist and has helped dogs with adrenal, inappetance, diabetes etc issues in addition to treating them w/traditional care. She said she would be happy to do whatever K state suggested and said she had attended a course recently and all they talked about what how the adrenals affect the thyroid.

We discussed over medicating relative to thryoid issues and she said Yes, lysodren is not good if you give it to a dog without a good diagnosis. I was like :confused:

Anyway, I got the test results but I have no idea which flavor I wish to select for my local vet. What do you think???

:D:D:D:D

PS She didn't want the food she ate partially this morning - walked away from it but she ate the food she rejected this morning. :confused: And she it all. And I gave her more and she ate that too. There is no rhyme or reason to what she wants to eat.

[Marlene]

WOW!! I got dizzy and out of breath just reading about your day.:eek: I was surprised, as you were, that the blood pressure cuff is made of GOLD. There is a VCA of Northern Colorado here and they had the machine to take Lacey's BP. CSU also has one. At VCA they put a cuff around Lacey's leg and at CSU they used the doppler machine. I am glad that after all you endured today, Annie got a good BP reading! I hope you and Annie have a restful evening and this is the start of lots of good reports.

Marlene

[addy]

Wow Kim,

That was ALOT. Milwaukee has alot of incompetent vets, too and it is not a small city. Sometimes my husband gets frustrated with me because I juggle 3 vets for Zoe, but I use each one for dffferent things. I can't agree with one vet on everything. We don't have the perfect vet that is a good fit for me, so I continue to juggle three, using them how I see fit. I think I have the best 3 and they are far from perfect. I felt it was the only choice I had for Zoe, maybe not ideal but, a girl has to do what a girl has to do!!!:) Which is why I talk about burning bridges, I never know when I might need one of them out of desperation!

I don't know what flavor you should pick, what a tough call. Maybe your old vet doesn't think he gave up on you. Could you talk to him about it? I mean, maybe he does not realize that is how you felt?

We have so few choices for all of this, it is really hard sometimes.

Tomorrow is another day, hopefully, it will be bettter for you and Annie. I'm sorry but Annie in a cat cage? The picture made me smile.

Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Kim
Sorry to hear what you are going through. I know they test the blood pressure to see if it is high which is a cushing thing. I went through the similar experience, the tech came out with this dirty looking machine wrapped it around Apollo's hind leg( muscle weakness etc)could barely keep the wrap on Apollo's little leg, tried for over 20 minutes, then I said why don't you just try the front leg. Walla , I just tried to compose myself-common sense if one leg doesn't work for God sacks try another.
Hang in there.

[Dollydog]

Wow that was some day....not sure who I'd want to talk to again....the woman sounded helpful. I'm sure glad Annie didn't mind her day and you were able to find out what her BP is! And that she ate tonight!
Hope someone is able to help you make a decision....maybe the morning light will bring a good idea.
Jo-Ann

[lulusmom]

Kim, I know that I should be telling you how sorry am that you had such a crappy day but I am still in hysterics reading your post. You seem to have posted a duplicate but with a different P.S. so I read it again and laughed just as hard. OMG, my jaws hurt.

[Sabre's Mum]

Kim ...

I am with Glynda on this one ... I am sorry that you had such an awful day ..... BUT your lil story did make me laugh!

Sorry ... no advice on on which flavour you choose next. It does remind me of what I went through with Flynn - our vet who treated Sabre right through his treatment suggested we euthanise Flynn TWICE - funny thing is though ... we are still with the same vet as I just put my foot down and ... there was no better option.

Take care
Angela and Flynn

[frijole]

Jimmy Buffet said "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane". I am fighting insanity from the stress of this with humor. Plain and simple. So laugh away because I did. I was WORN OUT by the time I got to work. The thought of picking a vet from this lot makes me want to vomit. :D

I reported to K State and they haven't replied with thoughts yet. They got a more clinical write up. :p;)

She ate again this morning but rejected first batch and went with second. I lost track of which flavor is being rejected. :D Was sniffing it and could not tell. :confused:

I think I should rename my thread but I'm not sure what to call it! :D:D:D:D

Annie shnauzer 14, maybe cushings, maybe not, won't eat but sometimes does, helico and possible pheo?

[MyRudy]

OMG, Kim, what a day you and poor little Annie had :mad:

I live in such a big city that it is hard to relate, but I WOULD GO insane having to deal with that nonsense!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

I'm with the others....laughing my butt off! :p:p I can just see all this happening - you stressed to the point of hysteria and Annie have a blast! LOL :p

And the "gooberville" comments...too funny to me as I DO live in "Gooberville" now! Population less than 1500! :D

Finding a vet can be lots of fun! I have talked with most of them in this area and have been so disappointed in what they had to offer. Squirt went to see the vet that treated her as a baby and for years after with her leg...they missed that pin sticking out!!! :eek: AND gave her Rimadyl! :eek: They were happy to see us again and treated us both with respect...but they were anxious to get her in for the Cushing's and start TRILO! OMG! I was so shocked!

So we are sticking with the vet that said he wasn't comfortable treating Cushing's. Why? Because he was honest. Arrogance didn't get in the way of his care for his patients. So Squirt, Dr. Nelson (the traveling vet) and I are gonna drag Dr. Bryant into the Cushing's world. :D There really needs to be a vet in the area who does know about this condition, don't you think? :p

You gotta go with the vet that makes you the most comfortable remembering there is no such thing as the perfect vet...tho some are very close!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Kim,
Glad to hear Annie's BP is normal, and that she's eating too (sometimes). Had to laugh reading about Gooberville, as my town has 5500 people, and 2 vet clinics. The farm vet and Franklin's doc.
When you got Annie home, did she demand a bath to get "cat stink" off her? :p
Keeping fingers and paws crossed that all goes well for you both,
Love from Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[Dollydog]

Just checking in with you two today.....(((HUGS)))

[frijole]

Thanks for checking in. After last weekend's episode she ate fine for a couple days. In fact she ate like a cush dog and her poops were normal and huge - biggest I've seen in years

She ate great Fri a.m. but that night she only ate when I fed her and switched flavors again. She also struggled to get up the stairs 3 times that night. And the sneezing returned.

These episodes come and go. Luckily she hasn't vomited or had diarrhea. They ruled out any gastro intestinal issues.

I am clueless.

I'm taking her for acth test and teeth cleaning in a week and will go to the petfood store to investigate alternatives. All 3 of Solid Gold flavors that she eats and then rejects have chunks of carrot in them. Will try something that doesn't have that in them.

Most go to the potato and duck (Van Patten) if they suspect allergie issues but she rejected that last time I tried it.

I think she has some sort of "signals" that come and go causing this. She wants to eat but she sniffs food and rejects it based on smell. I even tested using plastic, paper, glass serving dishes. So when she rejects a food in the pm that she ate great in the am and the can is just opened and each time there is hind leg "flailing" like they are made of rubber, sneezing and her poops get small and then soft.

Also it happens on weekends. :rolleyes:

[MyRudy]

Frustrating isn't it? I am at a similar place and just wish there was more I could do, but am resigning myself to give it more time. The hind leg issues are the hardest for me to deal with.

[Carol G]

Kim,

I hope you get some answers soon. I know this is tough.

In the meantime, have you tried the Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato? The reason I ask is that my cat Atty is particular and when she was being diagnosed she was put on the Royal Canin limited ingredient duck formula which she wouldn't eat. I tried Natural Balance limited ingredient Duck and Green Pea which she ate a little but mostly won't eat. However, she has consistently eaten their Venison & Green Pea cat food for months and months (knock wood).

Carol

[frijole]

Kim,

I hope you get some answers soon. I know this is tough.

In the meantime, have you tried the Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato? The reason I ask is that my cat Atty is particular and when she was being diagnosed she was put on the Royal Canin limited ingredient duck formula which she wouldn't eat. I tried Natural Balance limited ingredient Duck and Green Pea which she ate a little but mostly won't eat. However, she has consistently eaten their Venison & Green Pea cat food for months and months (knock wood).

Carol

Yes. Tried that twice and both times she did not finish it. I am thinking she has an aversion to anything orange. :D;)

Seriously I should just go to Walmart and buy some Alpo or something and see how she does. I keep trying all these healthy brands. At this point what the heck diff does it make if? My challenge is buying good food from some place that is a 2 hr drive and having her not like it...

I should clarify - she usually eats something so I am luckier than most. Its just that she goes thru a couple of options before taking a bite. I can tell from her face it is real and not her playing a game. She looks at me like "please give me something I can eat"

[frijole]

Frustrating isn't it? I am at a similar place and just wish there was more I could do, but am resigning myself to give it more time. The hind leg issues are the hardest for me to deal with.Understand. A knife goes thru my heart everytime I see her sprawled out over the steps trying to go up two lousy steps. I think your issues will resolve as the trilo takes affect - I truly do. I can't imagine being able to treat this even if it were cushings. I feel like I am letting her down when I run out of answers.

[Dollydog]

She knows you're trying to find her something.....but I can imagine how frustrating it must be...and I don't have any suggestions. It only happened once in Lady's life that I struggled to find her something that she would eat at every meal. I just kept trying because she had to eat enough to match the insulin dose.
Jo-Ann

[frijole]

We head to Lincoln tomorrow. Assuming Annie is well she will at last have another cushing's test. I am only doing this as the K State vet asked me to. :o Because if she does have it - how would I treat it given her eating disorder?

I'm going with the acth because I want to see where her cortisol levels are. Sometimes I wonder if maybe the last test result was wrong and she instead went low... given her appetite issues and back legs.

I plotted her eating episodes on a calendar - it took HOURS and while she had a few prior to starting lysodren they were off the chart during her loading. I am looking for a visual clue.

I don't think it is that she doesn't want to eat - always said that. I think she doesn't want to eat what I am giving her for some reason. Last night after hand feeding her again (what is up with that?) I decided to take some rice that she rejected the day before, heat it up, threw a tad of butter on it and some fresh parmesan cheese. She ate it like a cush dog. Threw a piece of lite turkey bologna at her at another time and she again devoured it.

I will be food shopping in Lincoln as well. The K State vet wants me to try the Royal Canin schnauzer. Lori recommended Dry Wellness Simple Solutions rice and duck. Am open to suggestions. She already rejected Natural Balance varieties.

She is also getting her teeth cleaned while there. Told them to skip the blood work this time. ha. Gotta run and get some things done.

[judymaggie]

Kim -- I went through so many months of Maggie walking away from food. Having a pup who doesn't eat is frustrating on so many levels. I was convinced that Maggie didn't eat because she was nauseous -- there was no other explanation that I could think as to why she would eat something one day and not the next. Someone also mentioned to me that older humans get very picky about their food so maybe that was part of it.

I used to have about 10 different options in the frig and just kept trying something until she would eat a few bites. I stopped investing in bags of food -- it got way too expensive. Most companies/stores have small sample bags which worked out better for me. We had many, many days of cooked lean ground beef. I tried cottage cheese which she didn't like but she would ricotta at times. I went through a lot of Nutrical. Even mixed it with the ground beef sometimes.

I had read that dogs that don't feel well will often eat via hand feeding. I hand fed Maggie for a long time and she would sometimes eat soft things off of a spoon.

I hope your trip to Lincoln is uneventful!

[addy]

Have you tried samples from Honest Ktchen? You can email them and they will send you free samples in the mail. The food is pricey but you can supplement it to help with the cost.

The reason I thought of it is because it is a dehydrated food that you mix with warm water so their food is always made fresh and is warm when you serve it. I mix it with Zoe's raw and Koko's raw. They love it.

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com i think is the web site. Maybe she will be interested in warm food. They have Keen which is lower cost. I use Embark.

I used to make Zoe nervous to go poop because I would hold my breath from being so stressed, one minute fine poops, next bad, no rhymn or reason to it. Then I realized I was holding my breath. She is more relaxed now. I fix a cheerful smile on my face no matter what.

Just thoughts that maybe you can glean something from :)

Addy

[labblab]

Hi Kim,

I'm afraid I don't have any eating tips, but I definitely want to wish you good luck on your trip to Lincoln!! I surely hope that the drive goes well, and that any info that you glean will turn out to be helpful and not a burden in any way...:o

Big hugs to both you and Miss Annie,
Marianne

[frijole]

Thanks Mariane and gang!

It will be doubly fun because I am kidnapping my mom's dog Jessie to have this vet look at her as well. You may recall she has diabetes.

I don't think she's ever been under control. For mos her hind legs are shaky, she is panting heavily. She doesn't want to eat her morning meals. She had a poop/soft accident in the house last week. She is 8 or 9 yrs old. WAY overweight. I always suspected hypothyroidism. Now I also suspect high triglicerides or pancreatitus.

I have permission to let them do whatever tests! Yeah. So me and the two furry ones are headed south in a few. :D

Annie wasn't too well yesterday but this am she ate food unaided for the first time in 3 days so that is great.

For those who offered food ideas - thanks - I too have numerous cans/bowls in the frig. I can't afford to buy big bags of anything! I already have 2 sitting in the pantry.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
Wishing you and your little troop well on this trip. We will be thinking about you and sending hugs, prayers and good vibes your way.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

Wishing you, Annie and Jessie the best of luck on your trip to Lincoln. We are hoping and praying you get the answers you need for both Annie and Jessie.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[k9diabetes]

It sure seems like a new ACTH test is a good step. You never know what might happen with a test.

While it was many years ago, I learned that lesson when I had a vet I didn't usually use do a feline leukemia test on my cat because she had some kind of a mouth infection. Instead of sending the test out to a lab, he did it himself in-house and diagnosed her on the spot with leukemia. Other than this mouth infection, she did not appear to be ill and I happened to see her chart while I was at the front desk and they showed the results as off-the-scale positive. So I took her back to our regular vet (after crying my eyes out as I took her home still woozy from anesthesia and a death sentence...), whose position was that the test was most likely in error. She sent a sample to a lab and sure enough, it came back negative and that cat lived another 14 years.

I have seen a lot of cases where something is lurking in the background that makes them eat the way you describe. They will eat a food for a few days and then reject it but heartily eat something else. We went through periods of this with Chris. We went through Rice-a-roni, Hamburger Helper, beef stew... so I always take that kind of eating behavior as a sign that something is up. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell you anything about what that something is.

In a way, being Addisonian is one of the better choices for why. Have you ever given her any pred to see if she improves on it?

So you get to take Jessie!! :) Yahoo! Didn't think it would happen so I'm very happy to hear this.

Good luck, drive safely, know I'll be thinking of you three.

Natalie

[zoesmom]

Woohoo - a doggy road trip! Hope they are both good travellers. :p And also that the trip brings some answers for both Annie and Jessie. I think the dental is a good idea, too - since you never know what surprises that might turn up that could quite possibly explain the finicky eating. And I'm really curious to see what that ACTH shows at this point.

Hope the trip goes smoothly. Sounds like you are leaving on Sunday? With appointments on Monday, then? Will be anxiously awaiting your reports. Sue

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Kim

Wishing you the best of luck, skill and experience that the Lincoln vet(s) can help out with both Annie and Jessie. Drive safely, especially if one of the girls wakes up with a WOOF, without warning :). Great for the nerves :p
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[frijole]

Yes Sue - the appt is this a.m. Both dogs are looking at me wondering where their food is. :( Will report back when I know something. They were fine on the way down. An adventure to them. :)

[AlisonandMia]

What are you doing re Jessie's insulin if she is fasting?

Good luck today!

Alison

[frijole]

We didn't give it and told the vet when we took her in. The vet has her insulin on hand. Will be anxious to see what she thinks.

I just checked and Annie's blood pressure was down from the last time 122 today. It was 140 at K State and 166 last week. She hasn't been doing great this week. Off and on eating but the hind legs are really becoming a concern. She will be walking and then BAM on the ground.

[MyRudy]

Have a great trip with the furry ones, Kim. Sure hope you get some good news :D

[frijole]

I expect to hear how Annie's ACTH test came out on Wednesday. Her blood pressure was lower - yeah at 122 today. Her weight was the same it was last time she was in Lincoln but up a few ozs. from the last trip to K State. Was hoping for more but will take ozs. Her teeth are clean.

We are waiting on results from acth to discuss her legs. I bought her several new types of dog food. Tried the first one last night and this a.m. It is one that Lori recommended for sensitive tummies. I had to get her started but she ate it all both times.

Jessie was tested alot today. They sent everything out to a lab so no results yet. Tests included: CBC, thyroid, pancreatitus, urine, acth for cushings....

The dogs enjoyed the ride both ways and playing with their cousin Baxter in his backyard. :)

[MyRudy]

Good to hear the furrkids enjoyed their trip! Hoping for good test results :cool:

[Dollydog]

I remember how excited I was by an increase of ozs.....;)...much better than a loss and hopefully those ozs. will add up to lbs. very quickly. :)
Will check back tomorrow for more updates...
Jo-Ann

[frijole]

No results but had a scare. She was out going #2 tonight and her back legs gave. She was flat on the ground and had to pull herself up with her from legs - no strength at all. I was horrified. She got up walked a bit and did her duty. Then she ran and successfully jumped up the two steps. WTH?

After 3 days of finnicky and 3 days of eating normal tonight she refused her new Wellness food, but did eat canned food (most of it) and a helping of white rice I whipped up for her.

God give me strength and wisdom to figure out how to help this little thing. :(

[littleone1]

My thoughts and prayers are with you and Annie, Kim. We're keeping everything crossed that this is just a one time event, and that she shows improvement.

[frijole]

I took out her antibiotic she is taking for the teeth cleaning and it is Clindamycin. She is taking 75 mgs 2 x a day. I had to shove it down her throat tonight (she had her first one this a.m.) so she does not like it. She never did this when she was on the triple antibiotic cocktail for the helicobacter.

It did say inappetance could occur. Great.

Anyone ever use this drug?

[StarDeb55]

Kim, I don't recall using clindamycin on any of my dogs, but I could have. I can tell you why they want to use this specific antibiotic as opposed to others. Clindamycin is better at penetrating bone that most any other antibiotic. If Ms. Annie has any sort of an dental abscess or infection, this is going to be what they use to make sure the drug gets to where it needs to be. I have had a couple of dental abscesses over the years, & the dentist has always started me on clindamycin.

Debbie

[frijole]

Thanks Deb. It seemed from reading that this was the case but great to hear it from you. She is hating it and rejected food again this a.m. until I brought out the canned chicken (hadn't done that in almost a month), boiled egg and a slice of bologna.

[addy]

Hi Kim,

I am so sorry to hear Annie is still feeling poorly at times. A friend of mine recently took her schnauzer/lhasa mix pup for a dental and a cyst removal. He developed an infection and vet gave him cephalexin antibiotic and his back legs went numb and he could't walk. She took him off the drug and he improved after a few days, but they really were not sure what caused it, though my friend suspected the antibiotic. It is so hard to figure things out sometimes.


I am saying a prayer and crossing my fingers for you and Annie.

Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

Hoping you start to see a sustained improvement in Annie soon.

I can only imagine how difficult this must be. Finicky eaters I've dealt with but not wanting to eat for an extended period would freak me out!

Then there was Apple...a cat who wouldn't eat her food unless it was piled up in a peak. She would eat the peak down to a little bowl in the center, then sit and holler for me to come put it back in a peak. This went on the whole time she ate. :rolleyes::p

Keeping you and Annie in my thoughts and prayers.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Kim,

have you ever tried to add rumen to Annie's food? :eek: Very smelly, pretty disgusting but dogs love it :D And it's really good for the intestinal balance. I give Yunah rumen once a week instead of her normal food...because it is so healthy for her and because she goes crazy ;) Never met a dog that could resist (the smell of) rumen...

Sas and Yunah :)

[frijole]

Never even heard of Rumen?!

Thing is - we have ruled out gastro/intestinal. I have been afraid after what happened with the probiotics to give her ANYthing.

If it isn't gastro/intestinal it has to be:

1. That her esophagus still has those sores (blood/pus) and lizard like skin
2. nausea caused by something else
3. Pheochromocytoma sending messages from thyroid

She has had her BP checked 4 times in the last month or so and it has been normal each time so that rules out #3

She almost ALWAYS eats close to a normal helping of food. It is just that about 50% of the time she walks away from the first thing offered. She isn't playing me - this is for real. So this sort of rules out #1

[SasAndYunah]

rumen..oh dear, how do I explain what rumen is :confused: Wait, I will check Wikipedia, they have this convenient possibility to look up a word in another language :D Aha, rumen aka paunch. Does that sound familiar? (and disgusting..???) :p

Dogs don't need to have GI issues to benefit greatly from paunch. A well balanced GI flora is beneficial also in healthy animals/humans. It raises their resistance in general for example, makes them less vulnerable to internal parasites for example. It's just a general healthy thing, for all dogs, healthy or ill, young pups or elderly dogs.

Well anyway, you now know what rumen is ;)

Sas and Yunah :)

[Carol G]

Kim,

I'm so sorry you and Annie are going through this.

Do you think the eating issues could have anything to do with a decreased sense of smell or taste? I not basing that on anything in particular, it was just something that occurred to me.

Anyhow, I hope there's big improvement soon,

Carol

[frijole]

rumen..oh dear, how do I explain what rumen is :confused: Wait, I will check Wikipedia, they have this convenient possibility to look up a word in another language :D Aha, rumen aka paunch. Does that sound familiar? (and disgusting..???) :p

Dogs don't need to have GI issues to benefit greatly from paunch. A well balanced GI flora is beneficial also in healthy animals/humans. It raises their resistance in general for example, makes them less vulnerable to internal parasites for example. It's just a general healthy thing, for all dogs, healthy or ill, young pups or elderly dogs.

Well anyway, you now know what rumen is ;)

Sas and Yunah :)

I googled them both up and it is the stomach of an animal. :) I am wondering... is this intestines? Do people buy them here? For dogs to eat? :eek::confused::eek::D

Sas, the last time I gave Annie the probiotics is when she got real sick while on the antibiotics and it scared the heck out of me. I haven't had the guts to try it again. I understand what you are saying... I am just afraid to do anything that might set something off again.

[frijole]

Kim,

I'm so sorry you and Annie are going through this.

Do you think the eating issues could have anything to do with a decreased sense of smell or taste? I not basing that on anything in particular, it was just something that occurred to me.

Anyhow, I hope there's big improvement soon,

Carol

Great point and I should have put this on the possibility list. Annie had a few bouts of not wanting to eat prior to being diagnosed with cushings and that is why I was concerned about loading. They were so far apart though - as in months that I thought I would be OK. I now know I never should have started lysodren...

The first episode after loading came at day 5. There were 4 instances in the first 3 weeks and by week 4 things got bad. The final acth test results showed her cortisol had INCREASED DESPITE AN INCREASE IN DOSING?!

That is why I have wondered if that test was wrong (I questioned the vet and he said no way (ugh)).... if she didn't go too low - she certainly could be one of those dogs whose stomachs and sense of taste were forever changed by lysodren. We've seen that before.

What is bizarre though is she'll eat all dog foods "on some days" and refuse them "on some days".

[frijole]

I have been wracking what is left of my brain and reading over 4 mos worth of notes - I have filled a steno pad! Looking for clues....

I focused on the eating issue for obvious reasons. We ruled out alot of things via 3 ultrasounds, a brain scan, x rays, blood tests.

What if all along the issue were with a disc or something? Pinched nerve or something skeletal? The first I remember noticing the back legs giving out was right after the ldds test but before the acth so that was before lysodren... I'd guess March.

It has gotten worse. Let me describe what I see & keep in mind she is a tall skinny schnauzer.


She doesn't stand normal any more. Its like her front legs are lower than her back. To put it real bluntly it looks like she has a corn cob up her butt. And she walks that way.

Sometimes when she is eating I notice her front legs are real far apart - not normal distance. Close to doing the 'splits'.

Her biggest issues have been the steps - going up them not down. But recently she will be in the house and all of a sudden her hind legs give. She really strains hard using her front legs to pull herself up and i worry she'll hurt her front legs.

If i had to guess it happens 5 times a week now. And afterwards she'll be running circles and playing in the living room. Strange.

Also I noticed that at night when she is sleeping - she lays on her side and the leg on top will flop - like a spasm. I will her a "thump thump thump" on the blankets. She is in a total sleep at the time.

The only other thing I can think of sharing is that her "pee pee" is enlarged. Like a LOT bigger than it normally it. It looks normal but it is larger and you can see it when she is standing up - its like it is lower/dropped. The vet at K State mentioned it on examination - she might have used the word distended?

Nothing abnormal was seen or mentioned from any of the ultrasounds or urine tests that were done. Never dx-ed with UTI throughout this ordeal.

OK enough rambling... just wondering if any of this might be meaningful... and thanks as always.

[littleone1]

Kim, I just read your post. I wish I could offer some advice, but I have no idea what could be causing this.

I'm keeping you and Annie in my thoughts and prayers, and Corky and I are keeping everying crossed that everything will be resolved with no complications.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
Just wondering if you use a raised food dish? Maybe it hurts to have to bend down and why the front legs split? Just a thought.

[AlisonandMia]

I wonder if myasthenia gravis is a possibility - albeit with a slightly odd presentation:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_myasthenia_gravis.html

http://www.vetinfo.com/dmyasthenia.html

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-canine-myasthenia-gravis.htm

Might be worth running past the vet.

Sure sounds weird with the way it comes and goes so rapidly - you'd think if a nerve was being pinched there would be some pain associated with whatever was going on although not necessarily, I guess.

Alison

[Roxee's Dad]

Just another thought. My wife's (Pattee) cousin had to build a chair to feed his dog. The chair keeps his body vertical so he can eat and swallow. The disease or condition is canine mega esophagus. His vet wanted to euthanize his pup stating he will starve to death. He refused, did some research and built him this chair and hand feeds him 3 times a day.

http://www.caninemegaesophagus.org/

Just throwing things out here :(

[Dollydog]

Going over notes was always a great way for me to see patterns with Lady and was a great help when talking to the vet. ;)

[SasAndYunah]

You're not using hormonecreme by any change do you...?

Sas and YUnah :)

[frijole]

You're not using hormonecreme by any change do you...?

Sas and YUnah :)
Nope. :(:p

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

Something about that "corn cobb up the butt" walk rang a bell....unfortunately that's all that happened. :p:o No memory came with the ring. :( If it pops up later I will let you know. ;)

Has Annie's spine been Xrayed lately? Also, it might be beneficial to the vet if they could see this happen. Is there any way you can video her when she walks that way and when her legs give out? Do you notice anything with the eyes when she collapses...any jiggling, etc? Any possibility she has injured her back without you knowing? Just navel gazing....

....but stopping now.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

Hey Kim,

Something about that "corn cobb up the butt" walk rang a bell....unfortunately that's all that happened. :p:o No memory came with the ring. :( If it pops up later I will let you know. ;)

Has Annie's spine been Xrayed lately? Also, it might be beneficial to the vet if they could see this happen. Is there any way you can video her when she walks that way and when her legs give out? Do you notice anything with the eyes when she collapses...any jiggling, etc? Any possibility she has injured her back without you knowing? Just navel gazing....

....but stopping now.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

My camera battery charger is broken so I either need to buy a new one or borrow one to capture it on film. Hard to catch the fall because it is infrequent and fast. But I agree it would help. NOT ONE VET HAS EVER SEEN ONE SINGLE LEG ISSUE. Yet when I was leaving the vet office on Monday it happened at the front door.. the receptionist saw it.

Local former vet took xrays of the legs/hip joints... said there isn't much padding and wrote me an rx for arthritis drug. It was one you don't give to a cush dog and he just wrote the rx to get me out of his office so I told him it isn't arthritis because it is so random.

No - never noticed the eyes doing anything -

Appreciate everyone's thoughts and ideas... I am writing it down to share with vet but frankly am waiting for the damn ACTH test! It was done on Monday and she said it took 4-5 days but I didn't believe her.. wonder what lab she uses?!! Wow. Awful.

When I get the results I am writing the vet at K State and giving a complete update and looking for some direction. Perhaps they can help my new vet rule things out.

She turned down 4 foods tonight. I mixed some kibble with canned chicken, rice and a boiled egg white - casserole and she ate almost all of it. I lucked out.

[zoesmom]

Kim - Always up for a mystery with clues and your comment about Annie's 'peepee' :eek::o:p caught my eye. Let's just call it like it is (I think we can? Guess we'll find out). So her clitoris is swollen, right? That seemed like a good and very unusual clue......

So I did a quick google search. Now this is news to me, but I came across a 'hit' on a cushings description page which says that hypertrophy (that would be enlargement) or atrophy of the genitalia can be seen in cushings dogs!!!!! Male and female, apparently. First I heard of that.

Here's the link:
http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Hormonal-and-Metabolic-Disorders/Cushings-Disease/Symptoms.aspx

Found a couple other things but they seemed more unlikely. One talked about pseudohermaphrodite female dogs and testosterone levels. But the pseudo......part aside, maybe there's an atypical component with Annie (i.e. testosterone level). Another hit made me wonder if Annie is spayed but then I figured she must be (it was about some condition that begins with an 'm' - shoulda bookmarked it but didn't) as it didn't seem likely. Another talked about testosterone and progesterone levels - like if the mother of the dog was given something hormonal during pregnancy. But that would hardly affect Annie at her age.

The most logical seems like it might be a cushings sign. So do ya' think you'll get the test results tomorrow. As for the eating and the weak legs, I'm stumped. Although if it still is a case of cushings, that might explain her legs. And she may be using the front legs too much to compensate for the weak hind legs (i.e. walking splayed out, etc.) Don't know why it would come and go though. So that's all I got. Sue

[frijole]

Good find Sue. Your dog was big and tall... did her hind legs shake when they were weak? Haley's did. After treatment that went away. Annie's have never shook. They just collapse. Annie also doesn't have heat intolerance. She always lays on the carpet or on a blankie and not on the tile.

I really need to borrow a camera and get this on film for you guys. And for the vets!

[zoesmom]

Actually, I don't recall Zoe's legs shaking, but they did just give out sometimes and down she'd go. Don't know if that was the cushings or just arthritic condition. Also, Zoe always sought out whatever patch of sun she could find - even the tiniest ones coming thru the windows. Only later, well after she went on trilo, did she start looking for cooler spots. AND, as I've said before, she never was a good eater, at least not until she'd been on the trilo for awhile. Remember how I'd always say she was bass-ackwards with the eating. When her cortisol was up (and especially pre-dx), she was a lousy eater, and then the lower the cortisol went, the better her appetite. Now that I think about it, she went against the grain on several of the the usual cushings markers. But she was always spot on with the drinking and peeing.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I hope you find some answers soon. Annie is definitely a puzzler. Wish it weren't so.:( Me and Cooky

[frijole]

DAMN! NO ACTH RESULTS AFTER FIVE DAY!

The vet receptionist just talked w/doc and then the lab. They wanted to send to the 'best lab' and asked K State where to send and they sent it to the Michigan State University lab and not IDEX!

They flipping just 'received the package and entered it into their system'. Promised results by TUESDAY next week.

I told them dogs being treated with cushings need immediate answers and this is ridiculous. Can you imagine if I was withholding lysodren or meds?

Anyone ever hear of using Mich State for ACTH testing?

I'm sure the vet was just taking precautions so I understand but I am about to lose my mind here! OK.. I already did I admit it. :o:eek::confused::D;)

[Squirt's Mom]

Ahhhh....brings back fond memories of when Dr. C lost the UTK sample in the freezer! :eek::p:p After all they had been through to find that sample, it really was funny when they found it in their own freezer! :p:D

But, I know how frustrating this is with Annie. She has too many unanswered puzzles and every day spent waiting is torture. :( I hope Tues arrives with some of those answers.

Meantime, enjoy the holiday...go do something fun Annie might enjoy and try to forget about all this for a little while at least. HEY, HEY! Go stroller shopping for her! Good sales this weekend! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Kim,

I'm so sorry that Annie's problems are continuing :( I know you've tried everything to entice her to eat, but I'll put this out anyway. Garlic powder (just a tiny sprinkle. A half tap of the container. Tiny) I realise garlic may not be good for dogs, depending on what you read, but some manufacturers still use it for treat flavourings.
Keeping fingers and paws crossed for you both (and Jessie)

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[frijole]

Sue - dang... now I am thinking I should have had the acth done by UTK to get those other hormones measured... Is it possible just to do those hormones and not the acth?

I am still trying to figure out why they sent this test to Michigan State. Anyone ever hear of using their lab? I've never heard them mentioned as a place for cushings testing...

The last week Annie's hind legs are rapidly deteriorating... I am freaking a bit. I have to do something. They told me I would have results today.

WTH do I do if it comes back cushings when the dog has refused all forms of dog food for a week? (Even the new stuff - kibble and canned) I have been making rice casseroles all weekend for her. Even that I have to prod her. Once going she will eat most of it.

[labblab]

Hey girl,

I think the diagnostic lab at Michigan State is generally highly thought of, and historically has performed some tests that are not commonly done elsewhere. When we were first trying to figure out what was wrong at Barkis, we discussed sending blood to MSU for thyroid testing because at the time they were the only lab in the region that performed a certain kind of thyroid panel. I hadn't heard that they have any special ACTH expertise, but maybe K-State really wanted a reputable university lab to do the testing because of all of Annie's questionable results in the past.

I'll keep checking in to see if you've got any results yet!!!!!!!!

Marianne

[addy]

We used Michigan State for Zoe's thyroid panels. My first vet wanted to send Zoe's Cushing tests there as well. When I said I would rather they go to UTK because I heard it is better for Cushings testing, she said she did not agree. IMS automatically said she uses UTK for Cushings, Texas for gastro and did not mention MU but then we were not doing thyroid at that point.

Did you check out MU's website? I know I used it to find out about retesting Zoe's thyroid, never looked up Cushings on it though.

Addy

[frijole]

I am at work or I would be bawling my eyes out. Annie is stumping everyone.

The value ranges for Michigan State are different - she is faxing me a copy but I only have ranges for now (not units measured)

Pre is 330 and post is 455

Normal for pre is 15-110
Normal for post is 220-550

So Annie obviously has cortisol in her body PRE but is not showing up as cushinoid.

I told the vet that I had decided I could not treat her if she was cushinoid due to her appetite but now due to the leg issues I have to do something as she will be crippled soon if I don't.

She told me to call Kansas State and talk directly to the vet so my concern is made very clear. She will fax results to her.

Up to $6000 and I don't have a clue what is wrong. But at least her teeth are clean now.

[spiritdog6]

I wanted to say I am so sorry for you and Annie. I know all too well the frustration, and the costs, and yet no firm diagnosis. I really do empathize with you. I hope you get some answers from the IMS very soon.
I know "wits end" and it is really tough, so my heart goes out to you. Watching them change on a daily basis, and none of it for the better is very disheartening, I know.
You are not alone.

[zoesmom]

Oh, Kim. I am sorry. That looks much like nmol/L ranges. And if it is, those results are certainly not cushings results. Nor addison's either. I hope the KSU vets have some NEW ideas. I can certainly sympathize with the $$$ spent (been down that very road, myself). Guess my only other idea, at this point, would be the UTK panel for the intermediates, especially given the swollen 'peepee' and the links mentioning some of those secondary hormones. Hugs to you and Annie. Sue

[frijole]

What is the likelihood that Michigan State could send blood to UTK? Guess probably not likely.. probably a different protocol.

Sue, did Zoe ever take lysodren? On the chart that I did the inappetance was very minor (4 meals in a month) in April and it escalated after the dosage was increased. So even if she didn't "go low" I am thinking it has affected her appetite...

Yep - intermediates are next. Gotta tell you though.. the legs are a huge concern. I want them to test for UTI or something in that area as well.

And it is not about the money... its about the lack of answers. And I should know - I have been here for over 4 yrs. I am not the first to go thru this insanity. I just thought my knowledge would help but it obviously hasn't. :confused:

[Harley PoMMom]

When I had Harley at Univ. of Penn. the first time they tried to send the UTK samples but did the wrong tests! :eek::eek: So I don't see why Michigan State wouldn't do UTK panel, ask them?

[frijole]

When I had Harley at Univ. of Penn. the first time they tried to send the UTK samples but did the wrong tests! :eek::eek: So I don't see why Michigan State wouldn't do UTK panel, ask them?

You think they have the capability? I thought only UTK could to that test and was wondering if the same blood could be used to save me having to take another sick day etc for a blood test.

[lulusmom]

Hey Kim,

Michigan State may even do their own progesterone and 17 oh progesterone tests. If any intermediates are going to be elevated, these two will be. It won't hurt to ask.

Remind me please...have you and your specialist ruled out disc problems as a possible source of Annie's hind end weakness?

[frijole]

:D:o
Hey Kim,

Michigan State may even do their own progesterone and 17 oh progesterone tests. If any intermediates are going to be elevated, these two will be. It won't hurt to ask.

Remind me please...have you and your specialist ruled out disc problems as a possible source of Annie's hind end weakness?

I need tutoring. :D:o tell me exactly what I want to have them do and I will ask. progesterone and 17 oh? what the heck is that? ha ha

No - we haven't addressed the leg issues as they were not the primary issue when visiting either time and they wanted to rule out cushings before trying any drugs I think.

I don't ever remember anyone having a dog with atypical cushings where the legs were like this but maybe I just forgot. ????

[Harley PoMMom]

Sorry, I totally confused you. What I wanted to say was that U of P was supposed to send blood samples to Dr Oliver's lab but U of P checked the wrong boxes and instead Harley had his aldosterone tested at MSU.

But like Glynda mentioned, Michigan State probably can test progesterone and 17 oh progesterone.

[frijole]

Lord. I mastered pituitary and lysodren. Then worried about a pheo I researched adrenal cushings... and now I'm going to have to wrap my pea brain around atypical? Thank god for our reference section.

Going to go to neighbors to borrow a camera if possible. BBL

[frijole]

Primary contact vet at K State if OFF all week. :o The lead on Annie's case is the head of the Small Animal Dept so I didn't leave a message for him to call me tonight.

I am going to ask the vet in Lincoln to contact Michigan State first thing tomorrow to see if we can have the test done.

BTW I did research at lunch and MSU has a huge EQUINE cushing's center.

[lulusmom]

Kim,

Aside from rear end weakness, what symptoms does Annie have that are associated with cushing's? I realize that she has a tumor on her adrenal gland but that doesn't mean it's secreting any hormones. I think I mentioned to you that if it's a pheo, a lot of dogs have them and rarely does it take their lives. If the tumor is functional, the UTK panel will almost certainly come back with elevated intermediates. A lot of dogs with functional adrenal tumors have high blood pressure and as I recall, Annie's was normal, yes? Just throwing stuff out there for you but seriously, I'm thinking that if Annie doesn't have any other symptoms, you may want to consider ruling out spine/disc and hip problems before pursuing more cushing's testing.

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Kim,

If MU hasn't gotten rid of Annie's blood sample (and if it is being held in the right conditions temperature wise) they could possibly forward it to UTK for the hormone panel. Just putting it on the table as a 'maybe'.
Really hoping you get some answers soon.

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[frijole]

Kim,

Aside from rear end weakness, what symptoms does Annie have that are associated with cushing's? I realize that she has a tumor on her adrenal gland but that doesn't mean it's secreting any hormones. I think I mentioned to you that if it's a pheo, a lot of dogs have them and rarely does it take their lives. If the tumor is functional, the UTK panel will almost certainly come back with elevated intermediates. A lot of dogs with functional adrenal tumors have high blood pressure and as I recall, Annie's was normal, yes? Just throwing stuff out there for you but seriously, I'm thinking that if Annie doesn't have any other symptoms, you may want to consider ruling out spine/disc and hip problems before pursuing more cushing's testing.

I understand the logic here - my motivation for doing the atypical cushings testing is that I am trying to save myself another sick day travel to Lincoln for a blood test and Annie having another blood draw. If they can do the test at MSU or forward it then great.

I read an article on atypical cushings in our info section that was very interesting. In addition to symptoms we are all aware of it it mentioned intermittent muscle spasms, leg cramping,(plus the usual muscle wasting) - Annie's entire leg spasses at night. I can hear it thump on the bed. Also it mentioned the swollen urethra.

Back to the original cushings symptoms: excessive appetite - she didn't breathe or chew for 2 years now. Inappetance was once every 6 mos or so for one day. NOW when she does eat, it is still fast and furious. :D

Urination in house - yes. She drinks around 1 cup a day but when first dx-ed she was peeing in the house and no one believed me that she was doing it with no increase in water. This went away after lysodren. But she did it twice last week. Don't know when - during day.

ROUND BELLY - She is a twig but has a huge belly and has for a couple years

No longer jumped on sofa etc. Tried but wouldn't make it just like Haley. Started a year ago

Elevated Alk phos.

hypothyroidism, heart murmur/enlarged heart and liver. ONE enlarged adrenal gland, licking her legs all the time - not raw, walking around house looking for food - she still does this believe it or not



http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215
This is the article that gave me a "aha" moment

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

If MU hasn't gotten rid of Annie's blood sample (and if it is being held in the right conditions temperature wise) they could possibly forward it to UTK for the hormone panel. Just putting it on the table as a 'maybe'.
Really hoping you get some answers soon.

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

Thanks. I am hoping to do this or have MSU do it. Fingers crossed.

[frijole]

MSU cannot do the OH test. There is not enough blood to do both. So if this is the case then I should just do a new draw and get off to UTK.

The vet in Lincoln is not open on Saturdays. Thursday nights they are open til 8pm but it takes me almost 2 hrs to get there.

IS THIS JUST A BLOOD DRAW OR DOES IT TAKE A FEW HOURS?

Vet said I can have someone locally do the draw or they will fit her in. If so I could have her examine her disc.

???

Sorry - I am not thinking clearly.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Bless your heart!

Ok...the UTK panel is a blood draw just like the usual ACTH...ie- it takes a few hours; the pre-test draw then an hour or two later another draw after the stimulant.

I'm afraid that even if UM had enough blood to send on to UTK, the sample would have been compromised due to the length of time it took to reach UTK. The one of Squirt's that got lost in the freezer :p was no good when they found it and sent it on to TN.

Hang in there, darlin'! You are such a good mom and I know Annie appreciates all you are doing for her.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

I have already done 5 acth tests... is there an option just for the hormones? Guess I need to go on their site tonight and look... I'm sure this vet has never worked with them.

[zoesmom]

Kim - I believe it's still a test requiring a baseline draw and then the stim drug and then wait for 2 (?) hours for the post-stim draw. Regardless of whether they are doing the combo tests, or just the intermediate hormones. But I'm pretty sure they can just do the intermediates by themselves. Their price list/instructions etc is probably in the info section? Without the acth and/or LDDS, it shouldn't be too much - other than the charges the local vet would tag on. :rolleyes: I think the full combo panel is like $145 or so), so it ought to be less than that. Sue

[frijole]

Kim - I believe it's still a test requiring a baseline draw and then the stim drug and then wait for 2 (?) hours for the post-stim draw. Regardless of whether they are doing the combo tests, or just the intermediate hormones. But I'm pretty sure they can just do the intermediates by themselves. Their price list/instructions etc is probably in the info section? Without the acth and/or LDDS, it shouldn't be too much - other than the charges the local vet would tag on. :rolleyes: I think the full combo panel is like $145 or so), so it ought to be less than that. Sue

:D Thanks Sue... yeah that and 1/2 tank of gas or more.

[zoesmom]

Kim - Didn't see the price list in our info section but here's the link:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/index.php

It looks different than the one I'd saved a couple years ago, but the prices look similar. Sue

[zoesmom]

Here's the link that gives the details:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/endo_tests_info_07.pdf

It sounds like you'd want the one under #3-g. Just the other hormones, right? Looks like that's going to include cortisol, anyway.

There's also one further down under #4 - for detecting ovarian remnants. Wonder if that could be an issue with progesterone or ???? Know absolutely nothing about that, or if we've ever encountered a female here with that problem. Seems kinda like we have, maybe. But we have had one or two male dogs over the years who I think had incomplete castrations and were having cushings type problems . . . . . operative words "I think". Could be those hormones are included in the atypical panel anyway. Sue

[frijole]

Here's the link that gives the details:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/endo_tests_info_07.pdf

It sounds like you'd want the one under #3-g. Just the other hormones, right?

Not sure! I'd want to make sure I check the right boxes!

Here's another problem... It says you have to ship overnight Monday thru Thursday... the ONLY night the vet is open is tomorrow night and she is staying open late for me.... Will this stuff be ok to ship out on Monday? DANGGGGGGG

[frijole]

On the "price sheet" there is a price for the adrenal panel acth $140 and then there is a line for the 17 OH progesterone $30 and a couple more lines for the aldosterone... are those in ADDITION to the $140?

I want to make sure I complete this thing right.. They won't be open when I am having this done at night.

[zoesmom]

I dunno and probably the best course is to have the local vet (or maybe you, if you don't trust the vet) call the school directly and find out specifically what test and the price (and the handling of the sample if Thursday night is the only option.) They do have pretty exact handling instructions. Sue

[zoesmom]

Well, since it says to centrifuge and freeze both samples at once, then it seems like once it's frozen, it should be ok to hold off on shipping until Monday?? But what do I know. Also, this is the list for the $140 price:
The following hormones will be assayed: Cortisol, Estradiol, Androstenedione, 17-Hydroxyprogesterone, Progesterone and Aldosterone.

Why did I always think there were more hormones on this list (not counting the cortisol)??? Like 6 or 7? Guess testosterone is not ever a problem.:eek: (But don't females also produce some testosterone, just less than males?) I'm obviously not up to speed on the hormone thing. :eek::eek:

[StarDeb55]

Kim, the full panel includes the 17OH & aldosterone. When it comes to shipping, you absolutely do not want to send the samples where they will arrive at UTK on the weekend. There is no one in the lab to accept them is my understanding. As long as the samples remain frozen until shipment, there should not be a problem. You need to make sure of that, & that they are shipped overnight, frozen.

Debbie

PS- The full panel includes cortisol, plus the 5 that Sue has listed in her last post. Testosterone is not included because it is not made in the adrenals as far as I know.

[frijole]

Kim, the full panel includes the 17OH & aldosterone. When it comes to shipping, you absolutely do not want to send the samples where they will arrive at UTK on the weekend. There is no one in the lab to accept them is my understanding. As long as the samples remain frozen until shipment, there should not be a problem. You need to make sure of that, & that they are shipped overnight, frozen.

Debbie

PS- The full panel includes cortisol, plus the 5 that Sue has listed in her last post. Testosterone is not included because it is not made in the adrenals as far as I know.

OK so they need to over night them on Monday then. Thanks

[StarDeb55]

I need to correct what I said about testostorone. It is made in the adrenals, but for males the amount is insignificant compared to what is made outside of the adrenals.

[spiritdog6]

In regards to packing, I hope the staff knows how to pack it economically & safely!I went through a real horror (for me) because the staff at my vets never do this kind of shipping (frozen/overnight) or if they did they are terrible at it.

When I took it to the UPS main hub (cheaper than the drop off places) they asked to look inside, as they could, as I could tell that the box inside was very small compared to the huge box they put it in.

UPS ended up repacking the entire container, more bubble, better tape on the styrofoam box (staff had used masking tape which was already curling up at the ends), and packing paper so the styrofoam box could not flip about in the bigger box.

Because of the giant size of box, and the weight (they used 4lbs. of ice packs) this overnight box cost me $90!

PS. I am glad I took it myself, otherwise the staff would have shipped this poorly packed box to a drop off place which would have charged me even more for the "convenience". When I tried to explain how to pack a box economically and safely to the staff, I received a phone call from the vet "that you called a lot today, we don't want you to be deemed a "difficult client" and to back off of calling them. It cost me $90 to "back off".

I hope the staff knows how to pack, just wanted to warn you of staff that is poor at saving owners $ or practical about how to ship.

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

Sorry to be checking in so late but it seems you have all the straight skinny now.

$140.00 is the total lab charge by UTK for cortisol + five adrenal hormones not including your local charges of ACTH, prep and shipping. Once we determined that Moria's cortisol was normal and the only other elevated hormone was estrdiaol our subsequent tests where for estradiol only without a stim at about $30.00 UTK charge.

Scott

[frijole]

In regards to packing, I hope the staff knows how to pack it economically & safely!I went through a real horror (for me) because the staff at my vets never do this kind of shipping (frozen/overnight) or if they did they are terrible at it.

When I took it to the UPS main hub (cheaper than the drop off places) they asked to look inside, as they could, as I could tell that the box inside was very small compared to the huge box they put it in.

UPS ended up repacking the entire container, more bubble, better tape on the styrofoam box (staff had used masking tape which was already curling up at the ends), and packing paper so the styrofoam box could not flip about in the bigger box.

Because of the giant size of box, and the weight (they used 4lbs. of ice packs) this overnight box cost me $90!

PS. I am glad I took it myself, otherwise the staff would have shipped this poorly packed box to a drop off place which would have charged me even more for the "convenience". When I tried to explain how to pack a box economically and safely to the staff, I received a phone call from the vet "that you called a lot today, we don't want you to be deemed a "difficult client" and to back off of calling them. It cost me $90 to "back off".

I hope the staff knows how to pack, just wanted to warn you of staff that is poor at saving owners $ or practical about how to ship.oh boy.. i live almost 2 hrs away so I can't stand over top of them while they pack it up... nice to know...

[frijole]

Anyone know if I am supposed to fast her for this? She won't be tested til after 6pm so I would really like her to eat in the a.m. if possible... thanks!

[spiritdog6]

Didn't mean to worry you, but wanted you to be aware, so you might ask if they have shipped this way before, ie frozen & overnight. Maybe give them some food for thought? If I could have stood over my staff I would have, but they are rather out of their environment involving just about anything with Cushings.

My inexperienced vet wanted it shipped ASAP, after a few calls from him to me, he finally called UTK and learned that the blood must be frozen solid before it is shipped. And mine sat in their freezer from a Thurs. to a Mon. so you are good to go having them keep it over the weekend frozen.

I don't believe the dog needs to be fasted for this, but I am no expert, don't go by my word. And with my dog, he is so lipemic, that fasting made no difference to his bloodwork. It's all a strawberry milkshake with him :(((

[StarDeb55]

blood must be frozen solid before it is shipped.

Sorry, Jean, but I do need to correct the above statement. The sample that is frozen is the blood serum which is separated from the RBCs after the sample is centrifuged. If one were to freeze whole blood, you would end up with a hemolyzed mess when the sample was thawed that would be totally unsuitable for any lab testing.

Debbie

[Carol G]

Kim,

It has been awhile but I'm almost positive that McGill was not fasted. Hope all goes well.

Carol

[gpgscott]

I agree with Carol concerning the fasting, no need that I have heard of for hormone testing unless you are perhaps doing other labs in conjunction.

Scott

[spiritdog6]

StarDeb, I meant what you said, just didn't use the correct verbage. I knew it was centrifuged ergo our strawberry milkshake .........

[frijole]

In an ongoing effort to have the longest, strangest, and most highjacked thread in the history of the forum there is yet another change in plans. :D

I've been busy all night over this but short version is that the vet must have come in at K State today. She didn't call me, she emailed me at home so I didn't get it til this evening. She spoke with the head of the dept and they do not think I should have the UTK panel done because they do not believe it is atypical nor regular cushings.

They want me to do another low dose dexamethasone suppression test to determine if Annie has an adrenal carcinoma.

I had the LDDS done in April and it showed pituitary cushings but that was before treatment for the helicobacter so we are all assuming the results were false positive on that.

I had 4 false positive acth tests. So let this be a lesson for all of us (me too!!!) that anything going on in the body can cause false positives on these dang tests!!

Since it is an 8 hr test I will go to one of the local vets to have it done.

Thanks to everyone that helped me with the UTK info.

[labblab]

They want me to do another low dose dexamethasone suppression test to determine if Annie has an adrenal carcinoma.

Kim, I was actually going to suggest a repeat LDDS to you, too, but was too slow on the draw to get it posted yesterday because I had first wanted to go back and reread all of Annie's testing and ultrasound history. But since she did have an enlarged adrenal gland on ultrasound -- and since the ACTH does a poor job of identifying ADH -- it does seem as though a repeat LDDS would be a reasonable next step.

But just to throw one more monkeywrench in the machinery :o, I'm thinking you MIGHT want to consider UTK's combined ACTH/LDDS/full adrenal panel? I don't know how much more that would cost than just a plain LDDS (and I know you'd rather avoid paying for yet another ACTH). But you'd finally have the full "array" of adrenal activity on the table for everybody's review. I know that Ken swears that having the UTK interpretion of the combined test results was the last piece in the puzzle that finally resulted in an accurate diagnosis for Shiloh.

This is just a thought, and I surely don't want to stress you with an additional decision. But you've had to deal with so much repeat testing, it just occurs to me that this would be one way to finally get the whole picture completed with only one more day of blood draws.

Marianne

[gpgscott]

Kim,

Sorry to hear about the possibility of carcinoma.

Concerning Marianne's suggestion of the combo panel from UTK, Dr. Oliver mentioned to me once in an email that it is a test fraght with collection issues, as far as cost it is a full panel plus an LDDS but you know how things vary from area to area.

Why the LDDS, would a good U/S not be more revealing?

Scott

[frijole]

Scott, She has had 3 ultrasounds already. We know she has an adrenal tumor and that it hadn't grown last check. They did all kinds of xrays etc on it when they first saw it and did not feel it was cancerous. We know one adrenal is swollen and the other is normal size.

They are trying to determine if it is adrenal cushings or adrenal carcinoma. They came right out and said they don't think its cushings.

Originally they thought the adrenal tumor was a pheochromocytoma but since she has not had high blood pressure they can't label it that.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents worth in here....

Since you are questioning whether the intermediates are in play here or not, since it is your baby and your money therefore your decision, and since Annie is going to have to go thru blood draws anyway, why not go ahead and have the full thing done thru UTK? You would have answers about the intermediates, your IMS would have the LDDS, you would get Dr. O's input, and another ACTH just for fun. haha

Seems to me this would take care of several things rather than putting Annie through more down the road. Like I said...just my 2 cents worth! :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[labblab]

They are trying to determine if it is adrenal cushings or adrenal carcinoma. They came right out and said they don't think its cushings.

Hey again, Kim. I'm guessing there are actually two different sets of questions that the vets are pondering. First, whether the adrenal tumor is benign (adenoma) or malignant (adenocarcinoma). And secondly, whether the tumor is functional or not (meaning whether or not it is causing the adrenal gland to secrete excess hormones). Both benign and malignant tumors CAN cause Cushing's. But from what you've said, it sounds as if the K-State crew do not think that Annie's tumor is functional. The LDDS would be one more "check" for them to make sure about that. And I was just thinking that the full adrenal panel would give a bit more info in that regard, so that is why I was earlier suggesting the combined UTK test.

Aside from the issue of hormone secretion, the remaining question is whether or not the tumor is malignant. And since it seems to be slow-growing, we'll hope the answer to that is a resounding "No!"

Marianne

[frijole]

You are right Marianne. Today I decided to put my head in the sand for a bit. I will come back with the fighting spirit but for today...

Question - even though I am out of vacation time - I am interested in getting in my car with my furry girl and driving away to someplace fun... someplace just for dogs and owners who love them. Anyone know of any fun places I could take her?

Thanks.

[labblab]

Oh Kim, I sure hope I didn't make you feel worse!! I was hoping to make you feel better, cuz it sounded to me as though you were thinking it had to be cancer if the tumor wasn't causing Cushing's. And from what all you've said, it seems unlikely that the tumor is malignant...:o :)

Boy, I sure wish I had a great get-away suggestion for you. I was gonna suggest a weekend at a Drury Inn, because we've discovered that it is a great pet-friendly hotel chain (all dogs welcomed at no charge, and free cocktails/munchies at night and big breakfast in the morning for all humans). But I just checked and there aren't any in Nebraska...DARN! But I'll keep thinkin' for you. You and sweet Annie definitely deserve a break from all this worry, and the chance to just have some special uninterrupted time together!

Marianne

[frijole]

No Marianne.. it wasn't anything you said other than the fact that my brain is just too fried to make any decisions. I am at crunch time at work and going on month four of Annie's journey. I haven't really grieved my sweet Haley and frankly sometimes being "strong" gets old. I know we have all been there.

I don't know what the future holds but I just looked at her sweet face this morning and felt that we should get away and do something fun. It would just be her and I so a camp or place with fun activities would be great. I just want to laugh and forget for a while. And i want her by my side when I do it. She has earned it after all the poking, shots, and tests.

Doesn't have to be in Nebraska... I would just prefer to drive as it'd be easier for us both. Googled it at lunch but nothing in midwest yet...

[labblab]

You know, I'll bet Steph ("corgipallie") might have some suggestions for you -- maybe in Colorado? She and Pallie always travelled so much together and did so much together. And I think they lived in Colorado for a time. Maybe if you PM'd her, she'd have some ideas?

Marianne

[Marlene]

Kim,
I can commiserate with your feelings of wanting to get away from it all. I have been feeling overwhelmed and depressed with all that's going on and all the decsions that so weigh on Lacey's well-being. I spent yesterday crying off and on. I found out today at CSU, that her skin problem is due to a proliferation of mites (normally on animals and people) caused by immune difficiency with Cushing's. That actually was a relief for me, because it is easily treated. I was sure she had an infection. I actually have a boost in my mood because I found out Lacey has a proliferation of mites!!!!:):eek::D

I don't know exactly where you are in Nebraska or how far you would want to come into Colorado. I Colorado but have not been here long enough to have an extensive list of suggestions. Estes Park is a really pretty little resort town. They have cabins you can rent, (and lots of hotels) and a lot of them are within walking distance of the shopping and activity areas of town. Lots of wildlife around the town. Elk and moose are seen downtown!!:) The ride up there via US34 is a beautiful drive along the Big Thompson River. If mountain roads scare you, I can assure you that this one is along the river all the way and not on the edge of any drop-offs. I mention this because I am nervous on roads where there is no bottom when you peer over the edge, and I always appreciate being forewarned!!!:eek: If you are interested or I can help in any way, let me know.
Hugs,
Marlene and Lacey

[corgipallie]

Hi Kim,
Lori sent me an email to visit your post. I haven't been on this site forever. I almost didn't remember my password.

Where in Nebraska are you? And how far do you want to drive? I was in CO for a few years and recently drove through South Dakota. I know of a cool dog place in Idaho that I hope to visit someday if you wanted to drive that far and I know Chicago is pretty dog-friendly. What's your radius and I can see if I can suggest some place good for you guys.

Steph

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I am so sorry that you and Annie are going through so much. It seems that there is always something going on. We're on a continuous roller coaster ride.

I really hope that you will be able to find out what's going on with Annie. I'll be keeping both of you in my thoughts and prayers.

[zoesmom]

Kim -

Here's some links that might help with the 'dog vacation':

http://www.dogfriendly.com/server/travel/guides/park/park.shtml

(Click on a state on the map and then a particular city to see pet-friendly motels, campgrounds, restaurants, dog-parks, etc.)

http://dogfriendly.com/dognews/

(top ten dog friendly resorts – Black Hills, SD #2 - is this fairly close to you?)

http://www.dogfriendly.com/

(Other categories to search for pet-friendly ideas.)

Too bad this one is so far from you. (I found it while looking for agility classes last month). Guess it's strictly for RV's camping, tho. It looks like so much fun, I'd almost buy an RV, just to go there. :)
http://www.4pawskingdom.com/


Sue

[frijole]

Thanks for the links and thoughts!

Estes Park is gorgeous - went there every summer as a kid. Sue that last link is exactly what I had in mind... I don't want to go someplace and just get a hotel because I'll be solo. I want a doggie 'jamboree' kind of place where I can pal with other dog lovers and pet their pooches and Annie can play.

I live NE of Omaha a little over an hour away. I'd drive for hours to the right destination. :D Don't want to fly - too much of a hassle with a dog. SDakota isn't far at all - depending on where in SD, Colorado is doable, Idaho too far unless it has a park like that link Sue gave. ha ha

I will make some phone calls locally. I have time - won't be done with my work obligations for 4 weeks.

[BestBuddy]

Wish you were closer, lots closer.:D We have some great places here and I could meet you for a doggy playdate.;)

Jen

[frijole]

Hi Kim,
Lori sent me an email to visit your post. I haven't been on this site forever. I almost didn't remember my password.

Where in Nebraska are you? And how far do you want to drive? I was in CO for a few years and recently drove through South Dakota. I know of a cool dog place in Idaho that I hope to visit someday if you wanted to drive that far and I know Chicago is pretty dog-friendly. What's your radius and I can see if I can suggest some place good for you guys.

Steph

Steph - great to see you! Already answered your questions but just saying it is good to see you again!!

[frijole]

Hey again, Kim. I'm guessing there are actually two different sets of questions that the vets are pondering. First, whether the adrenal tumor is benign (adenoma) or malignant (adenocarcinoma). And secondly, whether the tumor is functional or not (meaning whether or not it is causing the adrenal gland to secrete excess hormones). Both benign and malignant tumors CAN cause Cushing's. But from what you've said, it sounds as if the K-State crew do not think that Annie's tumor is functional. The LDDS would be one more "check" for them to make sure about that. And I was just thinking that the full adrenal panel would give a bit more info in that regard, so that is why I was earlier suggesting the combined UTK test.

Aside from the issue of hormone secretion, the remaining question is whether or not the tumor is malignant. And since it seems to be slow-growing, we'll hope the answer to that is a resounding "No!"

MarianneYou did a great job of summarizing what they are thinking. They feel pretty strongly it is not cushings and thus the suggestion to not do the UTK adrenal panel and to do the ldds.

Watch the test come back as inconclusive.

[corgipallie]

Too bad this one is so far from you. (I found it while looking for agility classes last month). Guess it's strictly for RV's camping, tho. It looks like so much fun, I'd almost buy an RV, just to go there.
http://www.4pawskingdom.com/

I DID go here!! It was awesome. I went in early May with Gypsy and Apollo and a friend of mine and her dogs from VA. We stayed in one of the cabins. They have a few cabins, plus RVs that are parked that you can rent. Or you can bring your own. We only did a long weekend but it was a blast. There were lots of enclosed places for the dogs to play and we had a campfire with carob smores. If you live anywhere in the South, it's definitely worth going to.

Kim,
I don't know of any specific dog-centered resorts in the midwest. I know wherever you decide to go will be special because it will be the quality time you're looking for.
I drove through the Black Hills of SD in May. It was beautiful and never expected it to be that beautiful. I bet you can find a nice little cabin or hotel in the woods near a lake to stay and make some memories. I don't know of any dog-centered resorts in Colorado either, and I would be a little cautious with the elevation. I'm not sure what a quick elevation gain would do to cushings. It could do nothing but it's something I would double check with your vet about if you decide to go to CO.

Here's the site for the place in ID. It looks like it would be quite a drive for you though. http://www.dogbarkparkinn.com/

Steph
(thanks for the re-welcome!!)

[Buffaloe]

Hi Kim,

I have followed your thread and it goes without saying, you sure are going the extra mile for Annie. I'm sure you will find a beautiful and fun place to take her on vacation. Road trips always bring a smile to my face.

I think it might be worth mentioning the possibility of the combination test at Tennessee to your professionals. It is an excellent diagnostic test and it is how we learned about Shiloh's adrenal tumor. I remember a couple of years later in conversation, my surgeon even mentioned its value as a diagnostic test. I had to follow-up with Dr. Oliver personally to learn everything available from the test results. I think it is fair to say that the lab at Tennessee is, by far, the best diagnostic lab in the country for canine adrenal issues. You could always e-mail Dr. Oliver, explain the material facts and ask him what test he thinks would have the most value at this point. Or, you could just have the LDDS test and take it from there.

I'd bet a fair sum of money that Annie's adrenal tumor is benign. I'd say there's about an equal chance of the Buffs beating your 'Huskers by 40 this year as her having a malignant adrenal tumor. It may or may not be functional but it's not malignant.

Every day you have with Annie is a gigantic blessing. Remember the camera.

Ken

[StarDeb55]

Kim, the thought comes to mind after your comment about the 2 of us switching rejected food offerings on Harley's thread, you might want to check into this one. At one point in time, probably the first of the year, both dogs were eating it & loved it. It's dehydrated, you just soak it up with warm water, & you can get it in several different kinds. I get the Maxim's. The other thing is they even have grainless for allergic dogs, & you can order on-line from them, & have it shipped.

https://www.nrgdogproducts.com/Home_Page.html

Debbie

[frijole]

Annie had the LDDS test today. I was nervous because she was shaking real bad in the car. She knows the groomer there and I asked if they'd ask her to pet Annie and calm her down while there. Well I was still driving to work and the groomer called - they put Annie's kennel in the grooming room with her! ha ha So she got special attn all day. Thank God.

Meanwhile Kansas State asked me to video Annie and send them so they could see any episodes. Dr told me that the entire staff is going to watch them tomorrow a.m.

I haven't been able to capture any incidents indoors because they happen to quickly and I never have my camera on me... but you can see here how her hind legs totally go limp going up the steps. NOTE this happens about 10% of the time - the other times she BOUNCES up them. :confused:

annie and the steps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKH37J6rqbQ


Sometimes she has all body shakes. This happened Friday night and off and on over the weekend.

body shaking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNTmf9AbJ4

Annie's weight loss and body shape

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujBy4kwGbT8

[k9diabetes]

Aw... I hope Kansas State can come up with some answers. What a sweet girl who obviously didn't want her tush filmed!

Natalie

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,

I can't comment on the hind leg weakness or body shape but the tremors or shivering is interesting.

Our Rozee shivers like that, we thought it was her borderline low thyroid but after being treated with Soloxine for 4 months, she still shivers. We did notice she shivers much much less now since we have her wear a sweater or shirt in the house. Thinking the AC is just to cold for her.

She also shivers when she has to go potty really bad. Once she relieves herself, she stops shivering.

[AlisonandMia]

Mia used to shiver just like that when she was a tad too cold. As with Rozee a coat "cured" it instantly.

It can be a lot cooler - and draftier - than we realize down at floor level too.

Mia used to shiver and shake with any sort of excitement (happy excitement or nervousness - it didn't matter she still shook the same). She always did that, it was just part of her. But the cold shivering was different and Annie's shivering looks like sort of shivering that was caused by being a little cool.

With the back legs and going up the steps - it almost makes me wonder if when she tries it and it goes well she bounces up but if something goes wrong (and it often does with small dog/big steps) she sort of loses heart and waits to be carried up. She seemed to go for it and then say "nah uh!, didn't work that time" and just stayed at the bottom.

Alison

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Kim, I watched all 3 video's carefully and there are a few things I like to say. The video of Annie trying to get up the stairs...in this video at least, she seems to have right hindleg weakness, not hindleg weakness in both legs. You can clearly see, her right hindleg giving in on her. With her left hindleg she "cathches" herself when she slides down the stairs and also with her left hindleg, she get's up again. So to me it seems more like a problem more specifically in her right hindleg wich causes me to believe there might be an orthopedic problem? Also I notice she walks with a hunched back, also a sign of orthopedic issues (very often indicating something with the spine, a slipped disc, arthrosis of the spine...but could also be pelvis or hip/knee related)

In the video of Annie eating, you mention her front legs being spread. I think you need to raise Annie's foodbowl to a level where she can stand straight and doesn''t have to bend down to reach her food. Annie is an older dog and by that I don't mean to minimise her problems, putting them off as part of her age, but...being an elderly dog, bending down to reach your food, simply isn't that easy when your an elderly. As with us, humans, they get a bit more stiff, less flexible, some sores and aches here and there, so if it's just for comfort only, I think it would make it a lot easier on Annie when her foodbowl will be raised for her :) And she wouldn't have to spread her frontlegs anymore to reach her food.

And I think the sweater idea is a good one. I used to have a miniature poodle and when he got older, his fur got thinner and he got cold more easily. Also a natural process. He got to wear a sweater too in his last 2 or 3 years. In humans too, older people get colder then younger people. So a nice warm sweater or a blanker over Annie at bedtime, might help :)

Sas and Yunah.

[BestBuddy]

Wow watching those videos made me think of Phoebe. Her coat had gotten thin and she had the shakes, she wore a coat the last 12 months and it really seemed to help.
I agree about raising the food bowl, it will make it a lot easier for Annie to eat without trying to balance with her head down. I raised Phoebe's food and water onto bricks and it was the right height for her, you would need something a little bigger than that.

Jenny

[labblab]

Hey Kim,

Re: the tremoring...if adding a sweator helps, then I think you will have solved the problem (and I sure hope that's the case!).

But if not, I just wanted to mention that Barkis suffered from tremoring episodes that I firmly believe were associated with his Cushing's. They started a few weeks prior to his diagnosis, and dramatically worsened right after we started his trilostane treatment. Although it looked as though he was shivering, I do not believe it was from being cold. He was a big boy with a full coat and during the day he was still seeking out cool hardwood and tile to lie on in a warm house. But I noticed the tremoring episodes most often when he was near us on the warm carpet or rugs.

One thing that especially caught my attention was that he seemed to have the episodes most frequently when he was laying down or even asleep -- not when he was standing up or active. We had also intended to videotape an episode to show the neurologist, but didn't get it done before the episodes started to slack off -- with no more explanation than when they started. But I always did figure that they were somehow related to rapid changes in his cortisol level, either up or down or both. I'll really be interested in hearing what the K-State people think and also how the LDDS results turn out.

Marianne

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

Thanks for the video, what a sweetie.

I bet she has some degree of spine clacification/degeneration. In the broadside shot in the last piece of video you see the exaggerated convex curve of her spine. In the first piece she reminds me for all the world of Moria in her last two years when she would more that half the time start up stairs and then abandon the attempt part way like Annie did. We think in Moria's case this was hip pain as it was less common near the adaquan treatments and more common as we neared the interval for another injection.

As far as the tremoring I wonder if it is a simple as pain from a partially impinged nerve that comes and goes with inflamation. I did notice as Moria aged and experienced loss of muscle mass she did some of the same tremoring but more so upon attempting to get up or some activity rather that just lying still.

Also when I commented the other day about the challenges of the combined LDDS/ACTH panel I was not speaking against it, just pointing out that the Dr. has to time and perform the agents and draws on a precise schedule and sequence.

Hoping your KS people find some good answers.

Scott

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Kim,

Add me to the list of people curious about the shivering. Franklin has started doing that while laying, resting or sleeping over the last 3 weeks. With him, it's a different kind of tremble rather than when he's cold, nervous or needs a toilet break.
I realise it's your summer/fall season, but in the videos her hair is so short we can see Miss Annie's freckles. I can't figure out if Annie is cold, but naked all over, why is part of her body doing more trembling than the rest of her? :confused:
Hoping you get some answers, and that you find a great place to go for your vacation :D

Hugs,
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I really hope that you will be able to get some answers soon as to what is going on with Annie.

When Corky's thyroid level was too low, he was also shaking and trembling. It seems that there is no clear cut answer to help us with our furbabies.

I'm keeping you and Annie in my thoughts and prayers that there is an easy answer and solution to what is happening. You are such a great mom, and you are doing everything you possibly can to help Annie.

Give Annie a big hug from me. (((HUGS))) for you.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Have nothing to offer that might even be worth consideration to help sweet Annie. But I did want to say what a beauty she is! Those eyes just melted my old heart!

I hope that KS can find some answers for her...and you... soon! Let us know what their take on the videos is.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[frijole]

LDDS test results are in. I can't locate the chart I use to interpret and am at work... thoughts?

Pre 8.78 (1-6 is normal)
4 hr 0.53
8 hr 2.86

units = ug/dl

Thanks for the feedback on the videos... I will comment when I have more time. No word from K State yet on it.

Kim

[frijole]

LDDS test results are in. I can't locate the chart I use to interpret and am at work... thoughts?

Pre 8.78 (1-6 is normal)
4 hr 0.53
8 hr 2.86

units = ug/dl

Thanks for the feedback on the videos... I will comment when I have more time. No word from K State yet on it.

Kim

PS I just looked back and her original LDDS in April was:
3.3, 0.8, 3.9

[labblab]

Wow, Kim. Very intereting, cuz the results are consistent with PDH. Here's the interpretation explanation from Dr. Bruyette's article:


When interpreting LDDS test results, first evaluate the eight-hour postdexamethasone administration cortisol concentration. If it is above the reference range, the dog probably has hyperadrenocorticism (false positive results may occur in dogs with nonadrenal illness)...

If the eight-hour postdexamethasone administration cortisol concentration is above the reference range, then evaluate the baseline and four-hour postdexamethasone administration cortisol concentrations to see whether cortisol suppression occurred during the eight hours. If at least 50% cortisol concentration suppression is present at the four- or eight-hour time points, the definitive diagnosis is PDH and additional adrenal function tests are not needed.

Even though you didn't give them, usually the reference range for the 4-hour and 8-hour results is approx. 1.4. So Annie's 8-hour was definitely higher than that. And there was greater than 50% suppression at both the four- and eight-hour marks.

I'll have to look back to see what her earlier LDDS results were (if you posted them here). But how's this for a new slant on things...:o

Marianne

[labblab]

I just saw you added her original LDDS results, and they were consistent with PDH, too (greater than 50% suppression at the 4-hour mark). DANG! So why didn't she come out "positive" on the ACTH?? It's a puzzle...:confused:

Marianne

[frijole]

She had 4 other acth tests that were positive. :D

I gotta tell you this is a wild ride. Both the ldds and the last acth show high cortisol at baseline. To me that means something is going on. :) But I don't think it is cushings anymore...

So does this mean that the adrenal tumor is inactive? This is so complex. I can't keep up.. don't expect you guys to! Whew.

[BestBuddy]

Hi Kim,

Annie is a real mystery. I have tried to find some info on some of the symptoms you have described and found the following link. A lot of it is over my head but you may be able to make some sense of it.

http://www.magicfoundation.org/www/docs/100/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia

May be no use at all but I can't help wondering what is going on.

Jenny

[gpgscott]

Yes, Marianne's assesment of the LDDS matches my understanding of a textbook PDH response.

Very confusing. Waiting with you for more.

Scott

[frijole]

The vet is not back on 'duty' til next week but she does respond by email. She said they'd look over everything and get back to me. She is a grad student and the lead is the head of the dept. She told me the entire staff was going to review the videos. No feedback yet.

Funny thing with the ldds result - i figured' it would be either adrenal cushings or not cushings and it came back pituitary. Here is a summary of the tests so far:

blood panel with alkphos at 450 (up from 250)
4/5 ldds 3.3, 0.8, 3.9 dx = pituitary
4/28 acth 17.2, 30.9, confirms cushings

commenced using lysodren at 250 mg
acth tests:
5/8 9.6, 24.4
5/21 13, 19
increased lysodren to 325 mg
6/1 11.5, 20.6 (it went up?)

appetite issues got real bad around 5/30 and have been intermittent since

6/7 ultrasound done showed enlarged left adrenal - only could see one

6/18 did another panel along with spec cPL, B12 Folates. Ruled out pancreatitus, B12 and Folate both HIGH dx-ed with bacterial overgrowth and started on Tylan

7/19-20 tested at Kansas State Univ: CBC (alk pho at 225), ultrasound showed tumor on left adrenal (enlarged) and right adrenal was normal. CT ruled out macro tumor. Endoscopy discovered helicobacter bacteria (lesions over entire esophagus, bleeding ulcers in the stomach) Vets do not believe it is cushings and also took her off of thyroxine for hypothyroidism (after 2 yrs)

Put on triple antibiotic for 14 days

Ate great til 8/1 then it started again

8/10 Back to K State - BP normal, triglicerides normal. They suspect pheochromocytoma - told to monitor BP when incidents occur

8/16 bp normal

8/30 bp normal and acth done
PRE 11.96 POST 16.49

9/15 LDDS 8.78, 0.53, 2.86

And that's what I did on my summer vacation. :D

What non adrenal illnesses can raise cortisol levels? Could it be something all together different? I think the first acth tests were false due to the helicobacter. All of her tests show elevated cortisol on the baselines. That is the only consistent thing.

[Casey's Mom]

Wow - what a puzzle!!! - I sure don't know but I am sure someone here will have some ideas for you. Or maybe a vet student looking for some research could help you out?:D:D

Great summer vacation - aren't you planning a trip with Annie go somewhere nice and enjoy each other?

Love and hugs,

[gpgscott]

Thanks for putting it all together for us Kim, you get a gold star:D

I sure wish I had something meaningful to say concerning this whole thing.

Hugs for you and Annie.

Scott

[frijole]

:D Yep Ellen... as soon as I finish up on a couple large project at work... it'll be about a month. I still haven't found a place in the midwest yet... but I will.

I forgot after that l o n g post to comment on the feedback from Annie's videos.

Sas... good pickup on the hind leg, right. I kept saying she walks like she has a corn cob in her butt but you so eloquently said 'she has a hunched back' and i noticed this about the time she was diagnosed with cushings. I had not noticed a particular leg so I will watch for that.

Re the shivering - I run the AC at 79 and it never gets cold. She might have a fever which would cause it but when she is shivering her legs are always bent and up close to her body and she looks stressed/in pain to me. I have tried covering her up and she takes the blankets off.

Marianne said about Barkis: One thing that especially caught my attention was that he seemed to have the episodes most frequently when he was laying down or even asleep -- not when he was standing up or active. We had also intended to videotape an episode to show the neurologist, but didn't get it done before the episodes started to slack off -- with no more explanation than when they started. But I always did figure that they were somehow related to rapid changes in his cortisol level, either up or down or both

Interesting and this is true with Annie also.

Alison re the steps... yes she did stop and not try again but that is because she has fallen so many times and with my stepdad right there she knew he'd pick her up. :p Like I said - most of the time she just flies up them. But when she loses strength she really loses strength. I'll eventually have the camera in hand at the right time and get another example.

Jenny, I tried elevating her dish and when she is hungry she eats like a cush dog. And she picks the dish up with her teeth and moves it to the floor. :D I looked online and they are like $80! I'll figure something out.

Thanks for the feedback - it is really cool to be able to share via video... makes it so much easier...even if we can't figure it out...;)

[frijole]

Thanks for putting it all together for us Kim, you get a gold star:D

I sure wish I had something meaningful to say concerning this whole thing.

Hugs for you and Annie.

Scott
Well.. this thread is my diary so it helps me too. ;) And re the ldds I opted to not do the UTK one because I cannot take a vacation day right now. I only trust the local vet that I am using to do easy stuff. If I had to I would have them do it but I would literally visit with them to help them read the instructions etc.

[BestBuddy]

What about Petco..is there one near you? Not sure of postage if you order online.

http://www.amazon.com/PETCO-Right-Height-Adjustable-Elevated/dp/B002XE43UO

Jenny

[gpgscott]

Sas... good pickup on the hind leg, right. I kept saying she walks like she has a corn cob in her butt but you so eloquently said 'she has a hunched back' and i noticed this about the time she was diagnosed with cushings. I had not noticed a particular leg so I will watch for that.


Kim,

I missed this part of Saskia's post and have gone back and looked at the video again. She is very right about the stairs thing I was focusing more on Annie's overall movements as she reminded me so much of Moria when she was in pain from her bad hip. Now go back to video clip number three at the feeding bowl and you will notice that Annie is placing no weight on her right rear and using it for balance only.

Scott

[frijole]

Wow.. thanks. Sometimes fresh eyes can really help. I will go back and check it out. I have noticed that when she lays down she is always on her side and the side that is against the carpet is her right side.

[k9diabetes]

That was a great observation Scott!

[frijole]

She's had the shakes all day and I did put a sweater on her.. still shaking and even when standing. I decided to hell with it and gave her a tramadol that I had from Haley. I remember it is real strong and Haley was on 1/2 normal dose. I gave Annie 1/2 of that so just a wee amount. Hoping it gives her relief. I have to leave to watch the football game in an hour. Was going to bring her but she's better off here sleeping.

And I did notice her right leg start to give out a while ago. Her left leg caught her weight so she didn't go down.

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I hope that you will soon be able to find our what is bothering Annie.

I'm keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers. It would be so much easier if our furbabies could talk so they could let us know what was bothering them.

Hang in there. You're such a great mom.

Give Annie a big hug from me.

[judymaggie]

Kim -- I hope Annie is having a good day today. Like Terri, I so wish our pups could tell us what is going on when they don't feel well. Maggie had bouts of shivering and it took me a long time to figure out that that was her reaction to pain.

One thought re raising her bowls -- I have used folded towels instead of spending the bucks for the "fancy" ones. This has come in handy with Abbie when she has had to wear her lovely e-collar.

[lulusmom]

Any word from K State yet on the videos and the LDDS?

[frijole]

Kind of disappointed that responses are dragging. Nothing from K State so I emailed my contact what you all had said about the hind right leg. She said she noticed it also and was going to have an orthopedist look at it today. Nothing yet.

Also no response re the ldds results that I faxed over.

Glynda - what were your thoughts on the videos? What about the ldds result?

Poor Annie was shaking all weekend. I gave her tramadol. She had a sweater on and I put on the heat. The shivering wasn't from cold - it has to be from pain.