New here , hypothyroid possibly more

[Earthmama]

Our boy Wiggy has had ongoing skin issues for years . We finally had him tested for food allergies and thyroid issues and he was indeed hypothyroid. He had excessive thirst and was always hyper as in excessively amped up as though he just can't stand anything , he doesn't settle down easily and is always ready to jump off his mat . He is crate trained and sleeps fine in his crate but will excessively whine and fuss and carry on vocally when he thinks he's had enough. Even with all needs met. I have to monitor his water intake because he will drain the bowl . I only fill it half full and I've got him trained now when I say "Wiggy ok that's enough" he will stop . But given the chance he will keep drinking . He then of course has to pee a lot . He's always panting. Always . It's like he's always excited or anxious or something . When we started treating his thyroid issues he calmed down some for about 2 weeks and quit drinking as much but he's back to his old ways . His thyroid was retested and was in the normal range so the vets office said he's on the right dose . He still keeps getting infected ears and chewing his feet and whatever body part he can . He lives in a cone because he will bloody himself in seconds chewing a sore into his leg or body. His skin seems fragile . I mean a dogs skin shouldn't get bloody red from scratching for a few seconds right ? But his does . Hence the cone . He's literally adapted to living in it and has been coned for over a year now . We bathe him and wash his cone . I took it off for 5 minutes the other day and watched him clean his wiener . Or so I thought then realized he was chewing a sore into his hind leg ! Back on went the cone . I'm truly wondering if something more than the thyroid issues at play . He's not on any of the allergenic foods . He's on a very controlled diet . I don't know what else it could be

[labblab]

Hello, and welcome to you and Wiggy. Gosh, I’m so sorry that he’s having these problems!! From what you’re describing, I do believe that Cushing’s could be a definite possibility. Is this something that you’ve discussed at all with your vets? If not, I’d bring it to their attention. Many dogs do suffer from hypothyroidism in its own right (this is known as “primary hypothyroidism”). However, it often goes hand-in-hand with Cushing’s, as well. Some dogs truly suffer from both disorders. But Cushing’s is a disease that can result in abnormally low thyroid readings as a secondary response. It is not unusual for dogs who suffer from Cushing’s to be diagnosed initially as being hypothyroid. The Cushing’s subsequently is identified when symptoms remain even after thyroid supplementation is being given. That’s exactly what happened with my own Cushpup, and that may be the case with Wiggy. I would definitely discuss it with the vet.

The first step might be to see whether Wiggy has demonstrated any lab abnormalities that are consistent with Cushing’s. If he hasn’t had a recent complete blood and urine panel done, that would be a good place to start. Cushpups typically have dilute urine due to the excessive thirst/urination. In terms of blood work, liver markers are often elevated, especially the ALP. Cholesterol and platelet counts are also often elevated, and certain white blood cells can show abnormalities, as well. If Wiggy does exhibit any of these irregularities in conjunction with his symptoms, then I’d definitely proceed with specialized Cushing’s testing, which we will talk about more if it seems appropriate.

So, bottom line, I’m so glad you’ve found us, and we’ll do our best to try to help get your sweet boy out of his cone!

Marianne

[Earthmama]

Thank you for your reply . We took Wiggy to the vet Friday 8/3 and he had a full panel run, . I did mention cushings to the vet and she said the panel would include liver test so it would be checking for that in a way at least preliminarily so we know what to test next or what're to go from here. We went to the vet specifically with the concern that he still has all the same symptoms as before , his thyroid diagnosis . She's checking his thyroid again and gave him several meds to help with his skin issues . His system seems so stressed and he created the worst hotspot the day we went to the vet . So once we get the lab results I'll report back




.
Hello, and welcome to you and Wiggy. Gosh, I’m so sorry that he’s having these problems!! From what you’re describing, I do believe that Cushing’s could be a definite possibility. Is this something that you’ve discussed at all with your vets? If not, I’d bring it to their attention. Many dogs do suffer from hypothyroidism in its own right (this is known as “primary hypothyroidism”). However, it often goes hand-in-hand with Cushing’s, as well. Some dogs truly suffer from both disorders. But Cushing’s is a disease that can result in abnormally low thyroid readings as a secondary response. It is not unusual for dogs who suffer from Cushing’s to be diagnosed initially as being hypothyroid. The Cushing’s subsequently is identified when symptoms remain even after thyroid supplementation is being given. That’s exactly what happened with my own Cushpup, and that may be the case with Wiggy. I would definitely discuss it with the vet.

The first step might be to see whether Wiggy has demonstrated any lab abnormalities that are consistent with Cushing’s. If he hasn’t had a recent complete blood and urine panel done, that would be a good place to start. Cushpups typically have dilute urine due to the excessive thirst/urination. In terms of blood work, liver markers are often elevated, especially the ALP. Cholesterol and platelet counts are also often elevated, and certain white blood cells can show abnormalities, as well. If Wiggy does exhibit any of these irregularities in conjunction with his symptoms, then I’d definitely proceed with specialized Cushing’s testing, which we will talk about more if it seems appropriate.

So, bottom line, I’m so glad you’ve found us, and we’ll do our best to try to help get your sweet boy out of his cone!

Marianne

[Earthmama]

Hi I just got a call back from the vet saying that Wiggys tests were "unremarkable". No numbers given but it was on voicemail so I'm calling them back. Their line has been busy so far. So now what? Do I ask them for some other kind of tests if his liver tests were fine? I honestly believe there is SOMEthing going on. He's just not been right for a long time and to keep having the same symptoms over and over, there has to be a reason. His thyroid meds haven't fixed anything and have not improved the original issues we sought help for. I don't believe it's just a gut issue. The vet had us start him on probiotics, a round of apoquel (short term only as he's had this before and it only helped shorterm then made them worse), and antibiotics for the hotspot he'd created. But this doesn't solve his issues overall. He's still always amped up, drinks alot, pees alot, hyper elvated arousal, and constant reoccurance of skin issues despite diet and regular baths.

[labblab]

Hmmmm...if you can, I’d try to get an actual copy of the test results. That way, you can see whether there are any abnormalities at all. “Unremarkable” sounds as though everything was within normal range. But maybe there were some abnormalities that just didn’t seem all that striking to the vet. Once we know for certain, we can think about things some more.

Marianne

[Earthmama]

I've requested a copy and will get those tomorrow so I'll check back in



Hmmmm...if you can, I’d try to get an actual copy of the test results. That way, you can see whether there are any abnormalities at all. “Unremarkable” sounds as though everything was within normal range. But maybe there were some abnormalities that just didn’t seem all that striking to the vet. Once we know for certain, we can think about things some more.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

Is Wiggy getting his thyroid medication once or twice a day? And how are they testing for his thyroid level?

Lori

[emmagirl]

Hello, I am just a member on the forum and don’t have the expertise these wonderful moderators on the forum do, but my own cushpup, Emma, was plagued with skin issues for months. I feel for Wiggy that his issues have him living in a cone, and I’m sure you feel his discomfort. Is it possible that Wiggy picks up a flea or two when he goes outside? Do you perhaps live in a year round warm climate where flea activity goes on constantly?
I only ask because Emma has flea bite sensitivity and any bites have her scratching & biting the spots and can quickly turn into hotspots. Inside her back legs seems to be the primary target of a flea, but she also gets them other places. If she starts scratching I know a flea has bitten her and finding one flea is harder than it sounds. I finally found a remedy, though, and would be happy to share if you think it’s possible that it might be happening to Wiggy.
I also had another thought.... depending on the order of how things happened. Did Wiggy's hot spots go away after the cone was put on? If Wiggy is being bitten by a flea and cannot scratch it, it might be a reason for the feet chewing. I imagine it would uncomfortable not to get at an itch and since he can only get to his feet.... it's probably far fetched, by I try to think of things from Emma's point of view and sometimes, it actually works.
All the best to you both.
Sharon

[Joan2517]

Sharon, could you share your remedy? I think that's what is going on with Gable right now. I bathed him a little while ago and he's got those hot spots all over his tummy and tail and inner thighs. I was going to ask for antibiotics when I go to the vet tomorrow.

Thanks,
Joan

[Squirt's Mom]

Yes please share you remedy here or on Emma's thread where we can all learn about it!

[emmagirl]

Yes, I would be glad too! It’s 7:15pm est, and This is Emma’s “me” time since I’m on the laptop or doing whatever all day, and she’s making it known, so I’ll write about it ASAP- within the hour. Ok? . Talk to everyone then.

[Joan2517]

Thank you, Sharon! This could be so helpful to so many members.

[emmagirl]

Hi Joan, I started at 8pm and just finished. I'm sorry if its long, I wanted to get all of it in. I sure hope it helps and keeps your boy off the antibiotics. I hope it helps every single pup as well as it has helped Emma. I posted it under Emma's heading.....alright?

All the best, Sharon

[Earthmama]

Hi Joan, I started at 8pm and just finished. I'm sorry if its long, I wanted to get all of it in. I sure hope it helps and keeps your boy off the antibiotics. I hope it helps every single pup as well as it has helped Emma. I posted it under Emma's heading.....alright?

All the best, Sharon

I don't feel like it's fleas . He wears a topical flea prevention monthly and we haven't had any fleas or signs . He might get a mosquito bite though because the mosquitoes aren't repelled by the flea meds . His skin is smelly though and yeasty . He rubs his chin around a lot and chews his feet . It really started with his ears last year and ear infections . He would scratch them and not let them heal and then the cone thing began . When we took it off he bloodied his chin kicking it raw . His skin around his muzzle turned dark like they talk about in Dr Dodds hypothyroid books .

[Earthmama]

Ok I have test results finally . I don't know if there is a way to upload a picture or how to . I can try doing that or type out what values you think are needed . His liver test looked fine really and glucose was normal too . The vet has not gotten back to us about any suggestions . It's like once his tests were normal it's like no more followup . I really think there has to be something going on with him . They did t4 and his levels were fine too . They did not do free t4. The vet said it wasn't necessary since he was already diagnosed hypothyroid and being treated . We sent the original tests out to Dr Dodds for diagnosis but the retests were all in house t4. In my gut I know there is something else going on with him . Either diabetes insipidus or cushings . He pants all the time and drinks a lot and pees a lot . He can't stand when he can't drink . He drinks like half a bowl of water in the morning . Then he's fine for a bit . But does the same afternoon and evening . He has been like this for a long time . I was wondering since his liver test seemed normal does that deftmean no cushings or can it be normal and he still be cushings but need some other test first ? Basically does normal liver test completely rule it out or does he still neee act or something ?

[Harley PoMMom]

If you would type the values that are abnormal with the normal reference ranges and units of measurement that would be great...as an example: ALP 200 U/L (5-50).

80% to 90% of dogs have a steroid induced isoenzyme of alkaline phosphatase (ALP) so if one of those dogs has Cushing's, you are gonna see anywhere from a mild to severe increase in ALP.

Now, there is that 10%-20% of dogs with Cushing's and their ALP does not elevate that drastically, I have seen this situation a couple times on the forum, so it could be that your boy falls in that 10% - 20% group.

I'm including a link to an article titled: Diagnostic approach to polyuria and polydipsia (Proceedings). Polyuria is excessive urination; polydipsia is excessive thirst. The link: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/diagnostic-approach-polyuria-and-polydipsia-proceedings-0

And here is another article: Diagnostic Approach to PU/PD: Urine Specific Gravity
https://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/01/diagnostic-approach-to-pupd-urine.html In this article one of the things that is mentioned is testing for leptospirosis. Have tickborne diseases been ruled out?

[Earthmama]

Ok all I can tell are in normal range

Total T4 1.9 ref 1.0-4.0
Glucose 83 ref 63-114
ALT 51 ref 18-121
AST 40 ref 16-55
ALP 21 ref 5-160
Cholesterol 148 ref 131-345

There is alot more on the labs but everything is normal and I don't know what numbers are important . Let me know if there is something specific I should look for

[Harley PoMMom]

Those normal values definitely aren't what we are used to seeing in dog's with Cushing's. Was an issue ruled out with the kidneys or bladder, such as an infection or stones? Was an urinalysis done?

[Earthmama]

no urinalysis was done actually. But he's had these symptoms for so long. The vet had him on apoquel for 2 weeks and antibiotics and probiotics because of his gut and the hotspot. He finished the apoquel and antibiotics a few days ago. He was so smelly so I gave him a bath and washed the scabby stuff off his tail fur. Well that started him chewing on it again despite his cone. So I called the vet and she wanted to see him again. She said we should keep him on the apoquel at least another month to get him passed this itchy cycle and then work on balancing out his gut health so he doesn't keep having itchy skin. So I asked her about his constant drinking in light of the normal lab results. She said maybe we should check his urine. So we got one today while he was there. She ran an in house UA and said its' too concentrated, ph is not right and some blood in it. So she sent it off for culture rather than just giving him an antibiotic yet again because we don't want to mess with his gut further. She said if it's not infection maybe we do need to look further at cushings testing, he may have an issue with that yet just be low enough on tests that it's not showing up on the labs. I'm not certain what she meant specifically but I'm glad we are still looking for what's going on vs the feeling I got before, all normal labs = nothing needs done. His constant drinking she said could be due to raised cortisol levels because of his stress with all the skin issues. That makes sense. BUT he's been like this ever since I remember, so although cortisol makes sense due to that, why would it have been going on for literally the last 2 years ? anyway still working on his issues. I'm supposed to measure the amount he drinks over the course of the next 2 days as well.

[Squirt's Mom]

Something for you to look over. My Chihuahua developed horrid allergies; she was literally chewing her skin off and it seemed to happen overnite. Nothing we tried worked for long until a friend told me about a new drug called Cytopoint. She got one shot and within 3 hours had stopped itching. That shot lasted 4-5 weeks then she needed a second. By that time her skin was completely healed. That second shot lasted over a year! She didn't have any allergy signs at all for that time. Earlier this year she needed a 3rd shot and that was months ago...she is still not itching. She has had NO side effects from any of the shots. Here is some info comparing Apoguel to Cytopoint. You might talk to his vet about the two.

https://mckeevervetderm.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/543/2018/04/How-to-Choose-Between-Apoquel-and-Cytopoint.pdf

It is VERY possible the stress from infections, allergies, etc. can raise the cortisol enough to cause false positives on the testing. Another thing to keep in mind is that cortisol acts as a natural anti-inflammatory and will often CONTROL allergies while it is running high. Then once the cortisol is back to more normal levels with treatment, things like allergies, arthritis, and other inflammatory conditions will come roaring to the forefront. So with everything going on, I personally would put Cushing's on the back burner and worry about getting everything else balanced out. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie