Please advise about stop drinking and ping without treetment

[Otards]

Hello,

My doggy Toy Terrier Otard 5kg was diagnosed the Cushing 5 weeks ago. We are from EU! We visited our Vet with Pancreatitis problem and get the Cushing test positive. Also sonography was made and there is 3.2 cm big adrenal tumor. Liver and kidney enlarged and acute pancreatitis. Free liquid also.
His symptoms were excessive panting, drinking lots of water, and belly tummy. Increased appetite he had always! And vomiting for Pancreatitis.

First of all we started to treat the main problem Pancreatitis and get the caned food changed to natural - boiled chicken with rise, vegetables e.t.c. And our drinking and panting were gone!!!

Even before I had noticed that dog drinks much more water after eating a concrete dog can food. And there was a lot of outcome from that food.

After a month 07/28/17 we made a second ultrasound there is no change in tumor size. Liver and kidney are enlarged, and the sand in the bladder.

So tomorrow we have to start the treatment with the Lysodren. 125mg twice a day. But Im so worried, because dog don't have the drinking and panting any more!!! How dos it possible? Before the food change he drinked about 500ml per day and now in average only 150ml. Went 2 times per night to drink and to pee. Now he sleeps all night long. Fur he has less now, that for shore and thin skin too.

Does anyone have a similar experience, any experience with symptom change without treatment, or any advice on our situation?

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi and welcome to you and Otard!

Could you get copies of all test results and post them here? With respect to a CBC/chemistry blood panel you need only post those values that are abnormal and please include the normal reference ranges, thanks! We are especially interested in all tests that were done that diagnosed the Cushing's, so if you would post those results too that would be great! How much does Otard weigh? Is he taking any herbs/supplements/medications?

The two tests normally performed to diagnose Cushing's are the ACTH stimulation and low-dose dexamethasone suppression (LDDS), and unfortunately with both of these tests any non-adrenal illness (like pancreatitis) can yield false positive results. If Otard was tested while he was having a pancreatic episode than I do question the Cushing's diagnosis. Since the increased drinking/urination has returned to normal this also makes me wonder if Otard really does have Cushing's.

With Lysodren there is a loading period and the owner has to be very attentive during this time watching for any sign that the dog has achieved being loaded. Since the vast majority of dogs with Cushing's do drink/urinate excessively and have a ravenous appetite any slight change in either of these two symptoms can mean that the dog is loaded and the Lysodren has to be stopped. In the absence of strong, obvious symptoms I don't know how you would judge if Otard is loaded and if the Lysodren is continued this can cause an Addison's crisis which is life threatening.

If this were me, I wouldn't treat Otard with Lysodren, and I would definitely have a talk with his vet regarding the initiation of treatment without strong clinical Cushing's symptoms.

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to the forum. As Lori said it is very hard to do a load if the dog doesn't have the strong symptoms of cushings that you can use to tell when the load is achieved. I would want a definite plan about that, also if you do end up starting the lysodren, then make sure the vet gives you what is called a rescue dose of prednisone. This is in the case he overloads and starts to vomit, be lethargic, wobbly, (can't stand or not very well) won't eat, won't drink.

[Otards]

Hi and welcome to you and Otard!

Could you get copies of all test results and post them here? With respect to a CBC/chemistry blood panel you need only post those values that are abnormal and please include the normal reference ranges, thanks! We are especially interested in all tests that were done that diagnosed the Cushing's, so if you would post those results too that would be great! How much does Otard weigh? Is he taking any herbs/supplements/medications?

The two tests normally performed to diagnose Cushing's are the ACTH stimulation and low-dose dexamethasone suppression (LDDS), and unfortunately with both of these tests any non-adrenal illness (like pancreatitis) can yield false positive results. If Otard was tested while he was having a pancreatic episode than I do question the Cushing's diagnosis. Since the increased drinking/urination has returned to normal this also makes me wonder if Otard really does have Cushing's.

With Lysodren there is a loading period and the owner has to be very attentive during this time watching for any sign that the dog has achieved being loaded. Since the vast majority of dogs with Cushing's do drink/urinate excessively and have a ravenous appetite any slight change in either of these two symptoms can mean that the dog is loaded and the Lysodren has to be stopped. In the absence of strong, obvious symptoms I don't know how you would judge if Otard is loaded and if the Lysodren is continued this can cause an Addison's crisis which is life threatening.

If this were me, I wouldn't treat Otard with Lysodren, and I would definitely have a talk with his vet regarding the initiation of treatment without strong clinical Cushing's symptoms.

Hugs, Lori

Thank you for answer I will add the 3 Cortisol tests as soon as I figure that out how to do that.
Yes our Vet gave us a a rescue dose of prednisone. But we can't start to load, because today diagnosed another problem with the tracheal collapse!!!
This is to much for one poor dog with wight of 5 kg.

Tomorrow if we will get lucky will have a collapse stant placed in trachea! This is primal for his life. Hope and pray that he will make that. Its going to be with Anesthetics! He is 11 year old.
After that will think what to do next. Im not sure what is going on with his body, but there is wrong things for sure. He have a fluid in lungs and enlarged heart too. And today he started to limb on one paw.
Can all those problems be caused from Cusing or from cancer in Adrenal gland?
Im desparate! Can the Lisodren actually kill the cancer?

Sorry for my english.

[Otards]

Hello and welcome to the forum. As Lori said it is very hard to do a load if the dog doesn't have the strong symptoms of cushings that you can use to tell when the load is achieved. I would want a definite plan about that, also if you do end up starting the lysodren, then make sure the vet gives you what is called a rescue dose of prednisone. This is in the case he overloads and starts to vomit, be lethargic, wobbly, (can't stand or not very well) won't eat, won't drink.

Thank you for caring. The plan was to load 7 days and than make a Cortisol test. but there is new plan from today - collapse stent and if he will make it than will think what to do next. Hope and pray.

[labblab]

We'll surely hope that all goes well tomorrow! Please do let us know. And you are doing a wonderful job with your English -- there is no need at all to apologize!

Marianne

[molly muffin]

How did it go today? Where you able to have the stint placed? Is he okay?

Well, that does all seem like a bit much for one little guy. We do see a few cushings dogs with enlarged hearts but it's not a normal byproduct of cushings that I know of. Then heart issues can cause liquid retention.

Will the lysodren kill cancer, no..lysdren and vetroyl are both used to control symptoms and help with the cortisol levels, but won't actually cure the disease.

Uncontrolled cortisol levels can wreck havoc on the bodys other internal organs so having that controlled can be helpful to not cause other damage.

Thing is that you need the dog to not be sick when starting these meds as they are fairly strong and protocols for their use has to be followed.

Do let us know how things went today.

[Otards]

How did it go today? Where you able to have the stint placed? Is he okay?

Well, that does all seem like a bit much for one little guy. We do see a few cushings dogs with enlarged hearts but it's not a normal byproduct of cushings that I know of. Then heart issues can cause liquid retention.

Will the lysodren kill cancer, no..lysdren and vetroyl are both used to control symptoms and help with the cortisol levels, but won't actually cure the disease.

Uncontrolled cortisol levels can wreck havoc on the bodys other internal organs so having that controlled can be helpful to not cause other damage.

Thing is that you need the dog to not be sick when starting these meds as they are fairly strong and protocols for their use has to be followed.

Do let us know how things went today.

Thank you for caring!

We didn't get lucky - have to wait our Vet - so waiting until Friday for manipulation.
I don't sleep at the nights and control his breathing turning him and with open windows! Our Vet explained that Enlarged heart is from that Trachea Collapse - there not enough oxygen for heart and brain.

Do not know for how long time he has it. But he have a Cough since 1 year, time to time when he is trilled, or over happy, but after the Pancreatitis and Cortisol tests it is more often and more terrible.

Our Vet consulted the VMD, PhD Diplomate ACVIM from University in the US and she have wrote folowing:

Lysodren is better in this situation because it is a true chemotherapy and may actually kill the tumor and possibly some mets (trilostane won't). Having said that, though, of course, some dogs can't tolerate the higher doses of Lysodren needed for AT.

Treatment of AT with mitotane can provide good results. Of 32 dogs, 66% were judged to have a good to excellent response, 28% to have a fair response and only 6% to have a poor response. Mitotane does not appear to arrest metastatic growth, and the response in dogs without evidence of metastatic disease is better than that in dogs with metastases. In the same study, mean survival time was 16.2 ± 2.7 months with a range of 20 days to 5.1 years.{9}

We are hoping on the best! But Im still worried that since we changed the food he is NOT drinking and NOT pee as he used to! Isn't that main symptom for Cushing? May he have Cushing without those symptoms? But only with the Adrenal tumor, big belly, thin skin and hair loss?

Cortisol level is high ,but that also might be from the Pancreatitis as it was mentioned upper. And that he might have from the can food? But he have also the Adrenal tumor!!!

I dont understand this Cushing sickness.

[Otards]

Hello!
Otard made it. Today was placed the trachea collapse stint. He is home. Now he looks tired a little bit and very thirsty, but its not allowed. He did get the fluid system in clinic. So we have to oversleep this night and tomorrow morning will start first of all heart medicine. And after 3-4 days will start the Lisodren. We are not losing our faith to have some more time together and a happy aging live for him.

[Joan2517]

The poor little guy...hoping he is much better after a good night's sleep surrounded by those who love him!

[Carole Alexander]

Poor Otard, I am so glad he is home with you and wish him a speedy revcovery for his trachea, his heart and the Cushing's. Please let us know how he is doing and warm wishes to you and Otard.

[molly muffin]

How is Otard doing? It's been a few days now since his procedure. Is he recovering as hoped?