Diet recommendations for possible cush dog

[Deb1313]

Hi, I'm looking for diet recommendations for my 16 1/2 yr old australian cattle dog mix who had very funky liver values in his last blood work. (ALT (SGPT) 168 U/L -- normal range is 12-118 -- and Alk Phosphatase 2,764 U/L -- when normal range tops out at 131 so this is off the charts high).

There is no definitive diagnosis of Cushing's, and I am reluctant to pursue one as the testing sounds super stressful, I am reluctant to pursue pharmaceutical treatment, I suspect other issues may take his life before Cushing's in any case, and his symptoms are quite mild.

His Cushing's symptoms are limited to drinking tons of water, increased hunger, and a slight increase in panting at times.

Riggsy *is* getting acupuncture every two weeks, and he's taking SAM-e, milk thistle, and a an herbal liver complex that has artichoke root, burdock root and more.

He's been on a homemade diet for years, cooked rather than raw for the last 4 years since other dogs in the household got cancer. Since these liver results, i've been feeding him 4 small meals a day rather than two, consisting of either A) cod with veggies and potatoes per Dr. Dodd, or B) a turkey carrot meatloaf which is grain-free but includes collagen and hemp hearts. I've carefully avoided sardines, mackeral, and bacon (OK, I shouldn't have!) which he used to eat fairly regularly.

I'm wondering if raw tripe should be added to the rotation. I always wonder if 100% raw would be smarter than cooked; i've read plenty of arguments on all sides but never explored this through a Cushing's lens. I know he enjoys goat's milk...is that too high in fat? Have any of you found that cod with potato and vegetables (in larger proportions than i would usually feed) actually helped your cush dog? What are your core recommendations around food? (Maybe i missed a whole thread somewhere? I couldn't find any discussion on diet, but in my experience food is the #1 way to impact a dog's health, it's just getting it right for each individual which is tricky.)

Thank you tons for any input!

Deb

[labblab]

Hello Deb, and welcome to you and your boy. First of all, congratulations on providing the care and attention that has allowed your dog to reach the golden age of 16 1/2! That is quite a milestone, and at your boy's age, I believe I understand your desire to place your focus on immediate comfort and quality of life. As long as his overt symptoms do not seem to be too stressful for him, then I would not argue with your decision to forego involved intervention.

Turning to your main question, you are correct that we do not host a thread or subforum here that is dedicated to dietary discussion. As I'm guessing you're aware, there are a lot of folks who have very strong opinions about the best foods to feed dogs, in general, and we try our best to avoid adversarial conversations of any nature here. However, having said that, people do sometimes share their thoughts and anecdotal experiences re: dietary questions or issues on their own threads and that is perfectly OK. So any of our members are free to offer suggestions to you here. In terms of a few thoughts of my own, here goes...

Recently, we've had several folks join us who have told us that they've read that raw diets are best for Cushpups, but I do not know where that info is coming from. I am unaware of any documented scientific studies that have established that any single type of feeding choice is better or worse for all dogs with Cushing's. Such studies may be out there, but I've not yet come across them.

In honesty, I can't say that during my decade spent on Cushing's forums, I have concluded that any one particular feeding style seems more suitable or more helpful for Cushpups. I am not a fan of raw feeding myself, but we do have folks who feed raw food. Other folks feed the whole range of commercial wet, commercial dry, and homecooked. We have seen dogs who have done very well on each type of food, and dogs who have had problems on each type of food. So my personal, nonscientific opinion is that there is not any single choice that is generally better or worse for this particular syndrome -- it all comes down to each individual dog's GI system and personal constellation of related or unrelated health issues.

The general recommendation I do often make is to serve a food that has a moderate level of good quality protein, and also lower levels of fat. Cushings can affect the kidneys in such a way that protein gets spilled into the urine. If a dog experiences significant and persistent urinary protein loss, then it's probably best not to include high levels of protein in the diet because this can worsen the abnormality. The rationale for the lower fat is due to the fact that Cushpups may have a higher vulnerability for developing pancreatitis, and higher fat diets may heighten this risk for some dogs. Note the use of the word "may" in this regard, because the research is not conclusive.

As far as my own recommendations, I really can't go beyond these generalities. But other folks may have some more specific thoughts to share with you. And we will certainly welcome any other, non-dietary thoughts or questions that you may also have about your dog and his possible Cushing's diagnosis.

Marianne

[Mike78]

Hello!

I created an account just to reply to this since my dog is in a very similar place to yours and I have a plan going forward.

I was feeding Magic raw for years, but due to prices increasing and budget getting tighter with a baby I switched her to high grade kibble. 2-3 months after switching she started drinking tons of water and needing to pee all the time, and having accidents in the house which she never had before. We only had basic blood and urine labs done which indicated cushings as a possibility, so we're not certain but the symptoms match.

Looking back now I can recognize that it's been an issue for at least a year. She started panting all the time over a year ago, shedding even more than normal. Now she's got the water/urination thing and also sneezing all the time.

My theory is that she's had cushings for a while now but the raw diet kept the progression to a minimum. After reading this article: http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/canine-cushings-disease-change-the-diet/ I think that theory is correct. The kibble I switched her to was salmon based, which is high in purines and according to the article would aggravate the disease.

Short version:

- Fed raw for years and saw (but didn't recognize) cushing's symptoms
- Switched to salmon kibble and within 3 months saw increased symptoms which were bad enough to call a vet and have bloodwork done
- Found article http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/canine-cushings-disease-change-the-diet/ which seems to confirm my theory
- I am switching her to chicken necks/backs with occasional full ground chicken (for organ meats) and will monitor any changes
- I have no idea if this will actually make a difference, but I can't see any downside to trying it other than the hassle of feeding raw vs ease of kibble

[labblab]

Hi Mike, and welcome to you and Magic. Just as I told Deb, we will be very glad to offer our support if you find you have additional, nondietary questions about Cushing's treatment. In the meantime, certainly you should make the feeding choices that you believe are best for Magic. However, upon reviewing the info in the link you provided, it seems to me that the author really prefers raw feeding for all dogs, and no rationale (or research) has been provided as to why raw feeding is specifically better for a Cushpup as opposed to a dog suffering from any other health problem.


Feeding a raw natural diet is your best option with a dog that either has Cushing’s Disease or is showing early symptoms. The most important reason for this is because you are in total control of what your dog is eating – you don’t have to guess at ingredients and what they mean and how much of a certain item is actually in their food. Another reason is because any kibbled or processed dog food is going to be cooked and therefore, arguably, have purines that are absorbed more rapidly and more completely than those found in raw meats. By sticking to lower purine meats like turkey, tripe, chicken or cornish game hen, going easy on amounts of liver or kidney and avoiding fish like sardines, you can feed a healthy diet that will boost your dog’s immune system, lower stress, enhance all bodily functions and not aggravate their disease.

Any dog with a health issue will benefit from less stress and a strong immune system. So as I wrote above, I think it's fine if people choose to give raw food to their dogs if they believe it's generally healthier. But I've yet to see credible evidence that raw feeding carries any benefits that are specific to Cushing's.

One other comment in that article particularly caught my eye:


It is worthwhile to note that Cushing’s Disease is an illness that rarely affects dogs in the wild. This leads to the assumption that the disease itself is somehow attributable to human intervention. Namely – diet and medications.

That observation is pretty baffling, because how does anyone know whether dogs in the wild have Cushing's or not? It takes involved and specialized testing to diagnose Cushing's. If a dog is not domesticated, no testing would ever be done and an ill animal would simply die. And, as far as I'm aware, no dietary link has been established with the development of the pituitary or adrenal tumors that cause Cushing's.

I wish you and Magic good luck with your feeding program. But if her symptoms progress or worsen such that you want to consider medical treatment, please feel free to return to us at any time.

Marianne

[Mike78]

Yep, it's all purely anecdotal. I'll happily post my observations after a couple of weeks on the new diet, for whatever it's worth :)


Hi Mike, and welcome to you and Magic. Just as I told Deb, we will be very glad to offer our support if you find you have additional, nondietary questions about Cushing's treatment. In the meantime, certainly you should make the feeding choices that you believe are best for Magic. However, upon reviewing the info in the link you provided, it seems to me that the author really prefers raw feeding for all dogs, and no rationale (or research) has been provided as to why raw feeding is specifically better for a Cushpup as opposed to a dog suffering from any other health problem.



Any dog with a health issue will benefit from less stress and a strong immune system. So as I wrote above, I think it's fine if people choose to give raw food to their dogs if they believe it's generally healthier. But I've yet to see credible evidence that raw feeding carries any benefits that are specific to Cushing's.

One other comment in that article particularly caught my eye:



That observation is pretty baffling, because how does anyone know whether dogs in the wild have Cushing's or not? It takes involved and specialized testing to diagnose Cushing's. If a dog is not domesticated, no testing would ever be done and an ill animal would simply die. And, as far as I'm aware, no dietary link has been established with the development of the pituitary or adrenal tumors that cause Cushing's.

I wish you and Magic good luck with your feeding program. But if her symptoms progress or worsen such that you want to consider medical treatment, please feel free to return to us at any time.

Marianne

[labblab]

Yes, that's fine -- please do! We will always be anxious to hear how Magic is doing, and whether the dietary change makes a difference for her. I want to make sure you know that I'm not aiming to challenge you about your personal decisions. It's just that we've had a number of newbies arriving lately who tell us, "I've read raw feeding is best for a Cushpup," and then that statement catches wildfire and people assume there's a whole body of study to back that up and so they decide to do it too. As a staffer here, I just feel obligated to examine the actual basis for statements like that, and I hope you understand.

Marianne

[flynnandian]

i've always fed my dogs a raw diet. young, old, ill or healthy.
but feeding raw isn't like feeding just one kind of animal like chicken necks and backs.
you have to feed at least 4 or 5 different animals and mimic [or feed] the whole animal.
so you will have to feed meaty bones, organs, meat, tripe, some vegatables etc.
most do add some whole fish too for omega 3 reasons.
it has to be a balanced diet.
but despite i feed my dogs raw from puppie age till they die, i've had 2 dogs with cushing's disease.
no artificial ingredients do benefit liver and kidney's and bowl staying as healthy as possible.
very important for cushing dogs.
so please, just read a lot about feeding raw, because just feeding chicken necks and backs won't provide your dog with a balanced diet.

[Deb1313]

Thanks Mike especially for your generous impulse to post, and everyone who has responded. I actually wrote an earlier response but somehow it didn't post correctly.

In the 2+ decades i've been trying to make sense of nutritional impacts on various dogs, I have stopped even looking for clinical research studies. It seems practically no organization has the needed combination of financial resources, scientific expertise, and adequate incentive to engage in the complex, expensive, often unrewarding exercise of making sense of canine nutrition outside the bounds of commercially prepared food when so many breeds and health conditions and variable reporting schemes complicate the matter.

So to be clear, I am not expecting anything conclusive. Just hints and ideas and sparks of connection. I am asking readers for their own experience, because forums like this provide a unique opportunity for us to efficiently share with each other. By definition, this will be anecdotal, subjective, and "your mileage may vary" sorts of material. I still think it potentially useful. Even in double blind clinical studies, generalizing across breeds is a risky business. That doesn't stop vets from trying out pharmaceutical solutions designed initially for a different species (humans), and it doesn't stop me from trying out food-as-medicine. Because sometimes we get lucky, and something works.

Have you made a change in your cush dog's diet and seen results you attribute to that change?

Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist or an integrated medicine vet who had specific recommendations you are willing to share with others?

Read any articles or books you found especially helpful in your own food discovery journey?

I"m going to post this quick before it disappears, and continue in a different window...

[Deb1313]

Here are some tidbits I can contribute, in case they help someone else:

Someone else referenced Lena McCullough, DVM, CVA who is in Seattle area; she gave up her conventional med practice to be a full-time vet acupuncturist and sees Cushing's as something acupuncture is particularly helpful for. (See https://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2011/06/25/managing-cushings-disease-in-dogs-holistically/).

I purchased and started my Riggsy on the herb she recommends called Si Miao San. After a few days, he seemed to get heartburn from it -- it's so hard to tell, of course, because when *i* talk all he hears is "blah blah blah Riggsy" and when *he* talks, all I hear is "more more more -- come on Deb I mean it -- MORE!" Seriously, he has been ravenously hungry, and that little dance looks a lot like heartburn, so I'm really not sure. I stopped the herb for two weeks, and think I will try it again soon, as his after-dinner dance has continued without it, too.

I've read conflicting things about the purine content of beef. A response i've noticed in Riggsy 3 times is that beef for dinner (cooked in this case) caused him to drink water in the middle of the night, whereas that behavior had stopped after a week of Si Miao San and hasn't returned otherwise. So I think we'll stay away from it for a bit.

On raw vs. cooked: personally i've done both with multiple dogs and i'm still on the fence. i've read cogent arguments for and against raw for dogs with cancer; I can't decide who to believe. U.S. factory farmed meats/poultry make me nervous in general, and i can't afford organic regularly; this makes me lean in favor of cooked. But several articles i've read confirm that the purine content of cooked food is higher than the same foods in raw form, which is particularly notable for cush dogs.

A vet in southern California who has spent lots of time and energy researching impacts of food, Jean Dodds, DVM, says this:

"In general, raw diets can be beneficial for dogs with cancer and most conditions, except if the cancer is in the bowel or liver or if the dog has a clinically expressed liver dysfunction. This is because bacteria in the food could multiply - especially if the contractions and relaxations (peristalsis) of bowel segments are irregular - thereby producing pockets of bowel stasis and promoting bacterial growth. The bacteria can then travel up the bile duct and further damage the remaining liver tissue. For cases involving the liver or bowel, I suggest home cooking."

Riggsy's excessive thrist has decreased concurrent with my starting to feed him Dr. Dodd's Liver Cleansing Diet half the time. See http://www.nutriscan.org/knowledge-center/cleansing-diets.html?utm_source=tumblr&utm_medium=blog%20post&utm_campaign=liver2014Q2. He acts as if it's very tasty, particularly if I add rosemary while poaching the cod. I'm guessing it's not as filling as his other meals though, and he sure seems hungry...hence the turkey carrot meatloaf the other half of the time. I found big chunks of inexpensive frozen cod at Costco.

It's what's for dinner right now anyway. I'm toying with adding raw green tripe (which he has loved before, and which has cleared up GI issues for him before) and possibly raw goat's milk...but i'm unsure about bacteria and fat content in goat's milk. Anyone have insight on that?

[Mike78]

Well, Magic seems to be her old self again. I switched her to Chicken necks and backs on Friday and her symptoms have gradually improved since then. She's now drinking what I'd consider a normal amount of water, not panting excessively, and not going to the bathroom all the time. She's still sneezing a bit but I'm hopeful that will improve as well.

I'll be adding in some full ground chicken as well so she gets some organ meat and will adjust according to her symptoms.

[Deb1313]

Happy, happy news! Good for magic! And thanks for sharing.