Diabetic Dog - Maybe Cushings? Need feedback please

[cabindream]

Hey all -

I am new Cushings and not 100% sure my dog has it.

Hoping for some feedback. My dog Denali has been diabetic for 4 years but now she is not responding to her insulin they way she used to. She is on Novalin N. Weighs 65lbs and for 4 years has gotten between 13-15U BID and has been quite stable at mid 200's. She also takes 100mg of Tramadol BID. She has been on a raw diet for the last year and has been quite stable.

About 3 weeks ago she went through a really rough time, was highly agitated and inconsolable, not sleeping and I nearly made that big choice. We don't know what was wrong. During this time her BG levels were going up and we were getting numbers of 400 & 500!. When I couldn't get her BD down, I switched her back to to Orijens Senior which is only 19% carbs. The vet also recommended adding CBD/THC to help with the anxiety and pain.

Now she seems quite happy. She is sleeping through the night, eating well and seems back to "normal" BUT her BG is still way too high and we are up to 18-20U/BID and thats only bringing her down to low 300's. The vet thought maybe she had a UTI so we started her on antibiotics on Wednesday. No change in BG. The CBD/THC is unsweetened and according to the manufacturer is very low on the glycemic index, though it is made with glycerin and glucose base. The other products I can find are sweetened with xylitol so those are out. The pill form is hard to dose and doesnt seem to be working as well.

Insulin resistance? Cushings? She has many of the symptoms but not a pot belly. At 13 1/2, being blind and advanced rear end weakness, my vet is not sure that all the testing then medication/dosing that comes from treating Cushings is fair to her and was concerned about all of the blood work and time spent at the vets office inbetween tests and figuring out dosags, medications as Denali gets very stressed out at the vets office after already being poked and prodded so much over the years with diabetes and also 2 rounds of cancer.

Any ideas? Any experience with things like this? Thanks for any and all help. Homeopathic solutions?

Cheers & Happy Holidays -

Beth

[DoxieMama]

Hi Beth, welcome to you and Denali. What symptoms does she have that make you/your vet think she might have Cushing's? Have you had any testing done for it, or even just 'regular' bloodwork? If so, please share the results of any abnormalities, along with the ranges listed by the lab. I apologize for not having much to offer in the way of ideas, but I'm sure others will be along with more experience and probably more questions. ;)

Hang in there!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Beth, Welcome to you and Denali!

I am so sorry you and your sweet girl have been through so much :( Denali sure is lucky to have a Mom as loving as you are. First I want to direct you to our sister site that deals with canine diabetes, they are a wonderful group of people that are very knowledgeable when it comes to diabetes, here is their link: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/ I strongly urge you to join there too because in that way you will have the best of both worlds, ok? ;)

As Shana mentioned, posting the results from Denali tests would be great. And what does CBD/THC stand for?

Hugs, Lori

[cabindream]

Hello all -

I am Beth and my dog, Denali is a 13 1/2 year old lab who has been diabetic for 4 years and before going completely blind was also my service dog. Now I am her service human :) She eats Orijens Senior.

We have suspected Cushings for some time and just got the ACTH test done. Her pre-ACTH was 2.1 ug/dl and her post-ACTH was 16.9 ug/dl. The reference range from IDEXX was pre 2-6 and post 6-18.

In reading the additional information it said "ACTH response test is only clearly positive (>22) in 30% of dogs with hyperadrenocorticism (HAC); equivocallypositive in another 30% of dogs with HAC, and normal in 40 % of dogs with HAC.* If the ACTH response test is normal and HAC is still suspected, proceed with a low-dose dexamethasone suppression
test."

The rest of her blood work was nearly perfect! :)

Denali does not have the pot belly or barrel chest, but she is easily stressed and pants excessively in those times, she has skin sores and her coat easily thins anywhere there is rubbing from her collar/harness and it has been hard to regulate her diabetes, though we suspect a bad batch of insulin for this. So not sure if the excessive thirst/urination is from her diabetes being largely unregulated for 6 weeks or from early Cushings.

I have been looking at PetAlive Cushex Drops-S to help support her adrenal system.

Any feedback would be most appreciated!

Many thanks!

Beth

[labblab]

Hi Beth! You'll see that I've merged your new post into your original thread about Denali. This way, it'll be easier to keep all the information about her consolidated in one location. ;)

I don't know whether you had the chance yet to see Lori's earlier reply to you containing the link to the k9diabetes.com group, but I "second" her suggestion that you join those folks in addition to us. It is true that the ACTH does result in a number of "false negatives." But to be honest, I do think it's possible that the abnormalities you are noting could be the result of diabetes alone. I am thinking that the K9D members will be able to give you a better frame of reference in that regard.

You certainly could go ahead and proceed with a LDDS test (low dose dex suppression test). However, its drawback is the opposite of the ACTH: it tends to result in frequent "false positives" in the face of illnesses other than Cushing's. So if Denali tests positive on the LDDS, it could be due to either Cushing's or the unregulated diabetes :o. However, if she were to test negative on both the ACTH and the LDDS, you'd have far more confidence that she doesn't suffer from Cushing's at all. So there may be a benefit to running that test, regardless.

As far as the Cushex drops, my personal opinion is that I would not add them into the mix right now while there are so many other question marks going on. We have heard about these drops for years, and some people do indeed provide anecdotal stories that they have seen improvement in symptoms, at least for a period of time. But one of our staffers has contacted the company directly, and we are aware of absolutely no controlled studies that test or support the advertised claims. So giving the drops seems like a bit of a wild card to me which I would not risk with an unstable dog. But as I say, that is totally my opinion alone.

Either way, I'm really glad you found us and we'll be anxious for continuing updates on your sweet girl.

Marianne

[cabindream]

Hi Lori -

Thank you for the warm welcome. We have been on that group from day one of being diabetic.

Hopefully you can see her results in the other reply that was added to this thread.

Many thanks

Beth


Hi Beth, Welcome to you and Denali!

I am so sorry you and your sweet girl have been through so much :( Denali sure is lucky to have a Mom as loving as you are. First I want to direct you to our sister site that deals with canine diabetes, they are a wonderful group of people that are very knowledgeable when it comes to diabetes, here is their link: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/ I strongly urge you to join there too because in that way you will have the best of both worlds, ok? ;)

As Shana mentioned, posting the results from Denali tests would be great. And what does CBD/THC stand for?

Hugs, Lori

[cabindream]

Thank you Marianne et al for the welcome and all the great advise.

We have been on the K9D board from day on her being diabetic and love that group bunches! She started getting very sick about 6 weeks ago, became impossible to regulate and was having loads of other issues, so we suspected Cushings as possible cause.

What we found out was that the insulin she had been getting was bad. In the mean time we ran all the tests. I am not versed enough to look at the results to know if her numbers on the ATCH are hi-normals or low-normals within the range.

As for the test, this is what I have heard too so its really hard to know which issue is creating which symptom.

Right now we have switched insulin and using CBD/TCH 1:1 to help with her anxiety and panting.

I think I see her making some progress but after having been unregulated for so long it will be a process to get her stabilized again.

Thank you for all of your help in understanding the results of the tests.

Happy Holidays!