New member -- advice needed (Sunny has passed)

[dedenorio]

Hello,

My name is Deborah and I have a lovely Siberian Husky named Sunny who was recently diagnosed with Cushing's. Sunny is a rescue so I don't know his age, but the vet thinks he is probably at least 11 (I adopted him 6.5 years ago).

Sunny got started on Vetoryl on November 16 (60 mg/day -- I was given 120 mg capsules that I had to open and split the powder into two portions) and he had his second ACTH test on November 30. Unfortunately his cortisol level went up from 140 (on October 26) to 214 on November 30. He also lost 4.5 lbs during this time.

The vet showed the test results to an internist who thinks Sunny may also have diabetes insipidus. However, from what I have read, with diabetes insipidus his urine would have to be clear as water, and that is certainly not the case.

The vet gave us 30 mg capsules to make sure Sunny is getting 60 mg/day and wants to re-test on December 16. If his cortisol levels still haven't gone down by then, she will add another 10 mg of Vetoryl in the evening.

I am scared we may have caught the disease too late... For his cortisol levels to have not only not gone down, but to have gone up significantly...

I also noticed that since the last test he is urinating more, and his urine is really yellow despite the copious amounts of water he has been drinking.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Deborah and Sunny

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

How much does Sunny weigh? The starting dosage should be 1mg/1lb.
If you have capsule, Dechra the manufacture recommends against opening to split the dose. So it might be better to see if a compound pharmacy would compound the pills to the dosage needed.

Did Sunny have other blood work done and urinaysis? If so could you post anything results that were out of range either high or low?
for example ALKP 553 ug range 50 - 150 ug

This would help us to give you better feedback.

Deep breaths and lets see whats what with Sunny's levels and health.
its very scary when anything goes off our furbabies is very distressing. We've all been at this point and understand completely.

[labblab]

Hello and welcome from me, too! Since Dechra makes Vetoryl capsules in dosage strengths of 5, 10, 30, 60, and 120 mg., I'm puzzled as to why your vet was giving you 120 mg. capsules to begin with. As Sharlene says, there are specific warnings against opening capsules and splitting the powder, including the fact that you cannot precisely manage the dosage when you are handling it in that manner. It's fine to combine two 30 mg. capsules, but you could easily be getting the correct dose in one singe capsule...:confused:

Backing up a bit, though, can you tell us what symptoms led to the Cushing's diagnosis? In addition to any test results, it will help us to know more about the issues that led you into treatment. ;)

As Sharlene says, though, do try not to worry too much right now. I know, much easier said than done! But Sunny may respond much better to the Vetoryl now that you are giving him intact capsules. And we are here now to help as much as we can with thoughts and suggestions. :)

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

How much does Sunny weigh? The starting dosage should be 1mg/1lb.
If you have capsule, Dechra the manufacture recommends against opening to split the dose. So it might be better to see if a compound pharmacy would compound the pills to the dosage needed.

Did Sunny have other blood work done and urinaysis? If so could you post anything results that were out of range either high or low?
for example ALKP 553 ug range 50 - 150 ug

This would help us to give you better feedback.

Deep breaths and lets see whats what with Sunny's levels and health.
its very scary when anything goes off our furbabies is very distressing. We've all been at this point and understand completely.

Thank you! Sunny's weight was 71 lbs on October 26 (the day they did the Cushing's test) and now it is 66.5 lbs (November 30 -- ACTH test 2 weeks after starting the Vetoryl).

Unfortunately I don't have the actual test results -- my vet called me and gave me a few results over the phone. What I have from the ACTH test on November 30 is:

Cortisol: 214 (it was 140 on October 26)
Thyroid: 19
Lipase: 2584
Liver enzyme was also high, but she didn't give me the value.

She said the rest of the results on his blood test were normal.

Sunny has had a really high lipase value for a few years now -- he was tested for pancreatitis at the time but it was negative.

I now suspect Sunny has had Cushing's for a while. The constant panting and accidents (particularly at night) have been going on for a while, but the vet would test his urine and it would turn out to be normal. Although the intense thirst didn't start until late September. He used to drink too little water before.

It is hard to judge if he has become hungrier, since he has always been food-obsessed. He started to get fussy about eating his own food (he eats raw) in August so I have been trying different flavors. He is still extremely interested in treats and people food.

I haven't seen any improvement since starting the Vetoryl. If anything, I think he is worse. Peeing more, even more lethargic. I sometimes have to grab the treats bag to get him to get up to go for a walk. :(

That's why I'm scared that we might have caught it too late... :(

The vet also got a urine sample on Nov 30, but I don't know the results yet.

When he first started drinking copious amounts of water and peeing all the time the vet found he had a UTI. After 2/3 weeks on the antibiotic he continued to drink/pee excessively so she said to take away his water after 10 pm. The one night I did that, the following morning I found the poor dog licking his pee off the carpet, that;s how desperately thirsty he was. That's when the vet decided to test for Cushing's.

I will ask them to email me the complete test results so I can post them here.

Thank you for the support, I really appreciate it!

Deborah and Sunny

[labblab]

Hmmm...I'm back again after noticing another thing.


Sunny got started on Vetoryl on November 16 (60 mg/day -- I was given 120 mg capsules that I had to open and split the powder into two portions) and he had his second ACTH test on November 30. Unfortunately his cortisol level went up from 140 (on October 26) to 214 on November 30. He also lost 4.5 lbs during this time.

If I'm interpreting things correctly, Sunny's first test on October 26 was prior to beginning treatment. Can you tell us what units the "140" was reported in, as well as the subsequent "214?" If these are units of nmol/L, then Sunny's first diagnostic test -- if it was indeed an ACTH -- would not even have been consistent with Cushing's in the first place (for our U.S. readers, 140 nmol/L equals approx. 5.1 ug/dL). Can you double-check those units for us, and also make sure that the first test was indeed an ACTH? There's a different diagnostic blood test called a LDDS that might have returned that kind of result. But it involves three different blood draws instead of just two. With both tests, there is first a baseline cortisol draw. Subsequently, chemical agents are administered and additional blood draws are taken. All the draws involve measuring cortisol levels, but the cortisol levels from the two tests are not comparable so that is why I am wondering about the specifics here.

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Hello and welcome from me, too! Since Dechra makes Vetoryl capsules in dosage strengths of 5, 10, 30, 60, and 120 mg., I'm puzzled as to why your vet was giving you 120 mg. capsules to begin with. As Sharlene says, there are specific warnings against opening capsules and splitting the powder, including the fact that you cannot precisely manage the dosage when you are handling it in that manner. It's fine to combine two 30 mg. capsules, but you could easily be getting the correct dose in one singe capsule...:confused:

Backing up a bit, though, can you tell us what symptoms led to the Cushing's diagnosis? In addition to any test results, it will help us to know more about the issues that led you into treatment. ;)

As Sharlene says, though, do try not to worry too much right now. I know, much easier said than done! But Sunny may respond much better to the Vetoryl now that you are giving him intact capsules. And we are here now to help as much as we can with thoughts and suggestions. :)

Marianne

Thanks, Marianne! I don't know why they ordered the 120 mg capsules -- maybe it was a mistake by one of the vet techs? The tech who scheduled the second ACTH test told me to fast Sunny -- so I asked how am I going to give him the Vetoryl since it has to be given with food?? She said to give it to him with one tablespoon of food. Now I'm wondering if this could have affected the test results??

In terms of symptoms:

* Excessive thirst -- most apparent in late September. Although I was just going through my notes and I had noticed him drinking a lot of water back in July.

* Accidents, particularly at night and after eating even a couple of treats -- this has been going on for roughly one year. Took him to the vet often, she checked his urine and prostate, both were always fine. In October she did find he had a UTI, so she thought at the time that was the cause of the excessive peeing

* Constant panting/seeming out of breath -- roughly around the same time. I noticed he seemed to run out of breath when we howled together (I know it sounds kooky, but us Siberian husky people love to do that with our pups), and very out of breath when climbing stairs. Vet thought constant panting was being hot because of all the fur. FYI -- I keep the temperature in my house around 65-67F year-round so he won't get hot.

* Skin -- in August I noticed a lot of flakes on his back, and the skin on his nose had become kind of rough. He also has a lot less fur on his back than he used to. Fur also curls around the shoulder blades

* His weight loss has been puzzling. In April he weighed 69.5 lbs (last year his weight hovered around 75 lbs, he is a tall husky), in August 68.5 lbs, October 71 lbs, November 66.5 lbs.

* About 2 years ago or so I noticed he stopped being interested in toys. He also became more aloof. He used to be happy when I came home from work (sometimes would spin around, other times would go to his toy box and pull out his stuffed animals and start playing with them), but in the past year he won't even lift his head when I get home.

I'm sort of paranoid so I tend to take Sunny to the vet as soon as I notice something is off rather than wait to see if it goes away by itself. So it's driving me crazy that this wasn't caught sooner. :(

Sorry for the extremely long post. I appreciate any help/advice. I just hope there is still time to get the disease under control.

Thanks!!

Deborah and Sunny

[dedenorio]

Hmmm...I'm back again after noticing another thing.



If I'm interpreting things correctly, Sunny's first test on October 26 was prior to beginning treatment. Can you tell us what units the "140" was reported in, as well as the subsequent "214?" If these are units of nmol/L, then Sunny's first diagnostic test -- if it was indeed an ACTH -- would not even have been consistent with Cushing's in the first place (for our U.S. readers, 140 nmol/L equals approx. 5.1 ug/dL). Can you double-check those units for us, and also make sure that the first test was indeed an ACTH? There's a different diagnostic blood test called a LDDS that might have returned that kind of result. But it involves three different blood draws instead of just two. With both tests, there is first a baseline cortisol draw. Subsequently, chemical agents are administered and additional blood draws are taken. All the draws involve measuring cortisol levels, but the cortisol levels from the two tests are not comparable so that is why I am wondering about the specifics here.

Marianne

Hi Marianne,

Sorry, my mistake. The first test on October 26 was indeed the one where they took his blood 3 times (still trying to learn about all the terms/tests). I understand what you mean by the units -- as I read through some other posts I was wondering about the units myself.

I will try to get more information from the vet and will post here.

Thank you!!!

[kaibosmom]

Hi. Welcome to the forum. You will find lots of support here! I hope that your pup starts feeling better soon!

[dedenorio]

Hi. Welcome to the forum. You will find lots of support here! I hope that your pup starts feeling better soon!

Thank you, I appreciate it! :)

[labblab]

Hi again, Deborah. Thanks very much for the additional information! We'll be anxious to get those specific test results, but in the meantime, here's a couple more thoughts.

Since it seems likely that Sunny's first diagnostic test was indeed a LDDS, I want to reassure you that the "higher" cortisol result on the monitoring ACTH cannot be taken to mean that his condition has worsened. As I wrote earlier, even though the two tests both rely on cortisol readings, the results are not at all comparable. The LDDS relies on the cortisol result after administration of a suppressing drug; the ACTH relies on the cortisol result after administration of a stimulating drug. So it is not at all surprising that the ACTH cortisol was higher.

Having said that, the result of the monitoring ACTH is actually generally within the desired therapeutic range for a dog being treated with Vetoryl, as long as the dog is doing well and symptoms are being well controlled. I will add this qualifier, however. The vet tech's instruction to give only a tablespoon of food along with the Vetoryl on testing day was misguided.


The tech who scheduled the second ACTH test told me to fast Sunny -- so I asked how am I going to give him the Vetoryl since it has to be given with food?? She said to give it to him with one tablespoon of food. Now I'm wondering if this could have affected the test results??


In order to be metabolized properly, Vetoryl needs to be given along with a full meal, even on testing day. What this means is that Sunny's ACTH cortisol level might have been even lower had he been dosed along with a full meal. We can give you some specific links to verify this. But for future reference, he does need to eat breakfast on testing days.

I specifically mention this because you say he's not doing well. So you do want to make sure that you're really getting an accurate test of the extent to which each daily dose is lowering his cortisol. And as far as the weight loss, I agree that's puzzling. My own Cushpup was very unusual in that he also lost weight instead of gaining it prior to treatment. But that is indeed unusual, and I'm not sure what to make of that.

I remain very troubled that the veterinary practice gave you 120 mg. capsules with the instruction to open and split them. They have an obligation to provide you with safe and correct medication dosages. There really is no excuse for them to give you the wrong dose, when 60 mg. capsules are readily available. Coupling that with the instruction to fast Sunny on testing day -- I do feel concerned about their experience with Cushing's. Was it the actual vet who told you to split the capsules, or instead the vet tech? If it's the tech who is supplying you with the capsules and info, I'm thinking it's time to have a talk directly with the vet about all this.

Marianne

[labblab]

Me again, again...;)

Deborah, I have one more question/thought for you. Earlier you posted a thyroid result which presumably is out of range, but I don't know for certain without the listing of units and normal range. However, if Sunny is suffering from a thyroid level that is too low, that could also account for the continuation or worsening of some of his symptoms.

It is not uncommon for dogs with Cushing's to exhibit low thyroid readings. Sometimes this is just a "side" result of the disease which ends up automatically improving once the cortisol is controlled. However, a percentage of Cushpups suffer from true hypothyroidism in it's own right, and require additional medication to normalize the thyroid level. A more complete thyroid blood panel can often help clarify this distinction. So if Sunny's basic thyroid reading (T4) was abnormally low, you may want to ask your vet about additional diagnostics or a trial run of thyroid supplementation.

Marianne

[DoxieMama]

Hi Deborah,

Welcome to you and Sunny from me, too! My vet tech also gave me incorrect information at the start of treatment, including telling me to fast my dog on the day of his ACTH test, or to give him the Vetoryl with "the teensiest amount of food possible" that day. Because of the education I was given here, I told her that was not the recommendation of the manufacturer and I was going to feed him as normally recommended. It was a somewhat uncomfortable position to be in, arguing with her as I did. But it is a good thing I did, because his results showed that the dosage he was on was too high!

I also did not consider asking for test results until my dog was diagnosed with Cushing's, and folks here wanted the actual numbers from them. But I had every right to have a copy of them, and it was no trouble asking for that. I kept all the results for my boy together so I had them available any time I needed them, whether that was to answer a question from someone here, or if there were an emergency requiring us to go somewhere other than his regular vet. I also think I learned a lot more about what was "normal" and what was not, as I could look at the results, post them here and search Google for information about different values. I like to research things sometimes. ;)

Anyway... welcome! I look forward to learning more about your Sunny!!

Shana

[dedenorio]

Thank you! Sunny's weight was 71 lbs on October 26 (the day they did the Cushing's test) and now it is 66.5 lbs (November 30 -- ACTH test 2 weeks after starting the Vetoryl).

Unfortunately I don't have the actual test results -- my vet called me and gave me a few results over the phone. What I have from the ACTH test on November 30 is:

Cortisol: 214 (it was 140 on October 26)
Thyroid: 19
Lipase: 2584
Liver enzyme was also high, but she didn't give me the value.

She said the rest of the results on his blood test were normal.

Sunny has had a really high lipase value for a few years now -- he was tested for pancreatitis at the time but it was negative.

I now suspect Sunny has had Cushing's for a while. The constant panting and accidents (particularly at night) have been going on for a while, but the vet would test his urine and it would turn out to be normal. Although the intense thirst didn't start until late September. He used to drink too little water before.

It is hard to judge if he has become hungrier, since he has always been food-obsessed. He started to get fussy about eating his own food (he eats raw) in August so I have been trying different flavors. He is still extremely interested in treats and people food.

I haven't seen any improvement since starting the Vetoryl. If anything, I think he is worse. Peeing more, even more lethargic. I sometimes have to grab the treats bag to get him to get up to go for a walk. :(

That's why I'm scared that we might have caught it too late... :(

The vet also got a urine sample on Nov 30, but I don't know the results yet.

When he first started drinking copious amounts of water and peeing all the time the vet found he had a UTI. After 2/3 weeks on the antibiotic he continued to drink/pee excessively so she said to take away his water after 10 pm. The one night I did that, the following morning I found the poor dog licking his pee off the carpet, that;s how desperately thirsty he was. That's when the vet decided to test for Cushing's.

I will ask them to email me the complete test results so I can post them here.

Thank you for the support, I really appreciate it!

Deborah and Sunny

Hello,

I got the results from the vet for both the Dexamethasone Suppression and ACTH tests.

Dexamethasone Suppression, done on Oct 26:

Cortisol - Baseline 113 28 - 120 nmol/L

Cortisol - 4 hr Post Dex 29 nmol/L

Cortisol - 8 hr Post Dex 86 nmol/L

ACTH, Nov 30:

Cortisol - Baseline 140 28 - 120 nmol/L

Cortisol - Post ACTH 214 220 - 550 nmol/L


The vet wants me to give him two 30 mg pills of Vetoryl (started him on the two pills rather than the split powder last Sunday) and will re-test on Dec 16. If the vetoryl still hasn;t made a difference, she will add 10 mg in the evening. And if there is no difference she will want me to go back to splitting the powder in the 120mg capsules...

If the medication were working, what kind of improvements would I have seen? Sunny continues to drink a ton of water, pees a lot, pants a lot, so can't really say I've seen a difference...

Thanks!

Deborah and Sunny

[dedenorio]

Hi again, Deborah. Thanks very much for the additional information! We'll be anxious to get those specific test results, but in the meantime, here's a couple more thoughts.

Since it seems likely that Sunny's first diagnostic test was indeed a LDDS, I want to reassure you that the "higher" cortisol result on the monitoring ACTH cannot be taken to mean that his condition has worsened. As I wrote earlier, even though the two tests both rely on cortisol readings, the results are not at all comparable. The LDDS relies on the cortisol result after administration of a suppressing drug; the ACTH relies on the cortisol result after administration of a stimulating drug. So it is not at all surprising that the ACTH cortisol was higher.

Having said that, the result of the monitoring ACTH is actually generally within the desired therapeutic range for a dog being treated with Vetoryl, as long as the dog is doing well and symptoms are being well controlled. I will add this qualifier, however. The vet tech's instruction to give only a tablespoon of food along with the Vetoryl on testing day was misguided.



In order to be metabolized properly, Vetoryl needs to be given along with a full meal, even on testing day. What this means is that Sunny's ACTH cortisol level might have been even lower had he been dosed along with a full meal. We can give you some specific links to verify this. But for future reference, he does need to eat breakfast on testing days.

I specifically mention this because you say he's not doing well. So you do want to make sure that you're really getting an accurate test of the extent to which each daily dose is lowering his cortisol. And as far as the weight loss, I agree that's puzzling. My own Cushpup was very unusual in that he also lost weight instead of gaining it prior to treatment. But that is indeed unusual, and I'm not sure what to make of that.

I remain very troubled that the veterinary practice gave you 120 mg. capsules with the instruction to open and split them. They have an obligation to provide you with safe and correct medication dosages. There really is no excuse for them to give you the wrong dose, when 60 mg. capsules are readily available. Coupling that with the instruction to fast Sunny on testing day -- I do feel concerned about their experience with Cushing's. Was it the actual vet who told you to split the capsules, or instead the vet tech? If it's the tech who is supplying you with the capsules and info, I'm thinking it's time to have a talk directly with the vet about all this.

Marianne

Thanks, Marianne! It turns out the vet ordered the 120mg capsules because the company was out of the 60 mg. The vet had originally said (before I picked up the medication) to split it in 2. When I got it and saw they were capsules, I called and was put through to the vet tech, who told me to open the capsules on a clean surface and split the powder there. As a result I probably wasted some of the medication.

When the vet called saying she wanted to have him take 2 30mg capsules instead until the next ACTH to see if it would make a difference, she said something about putting the powder in a meatball and splitting it which makes more sense than putting it on a clean surface...

Ugh, it is scary and frustrating. His stool has been weird too (mainly after he started the 2 30mg capsules) -- one day it's hard as a rock, then another day it will be pasty ending in liquid diarrhea. I left the vet a message about it, maybe it's from the meds, I don't know...

Thanks!!

Deborah and Sunny

[dedenorio]

Hi Deborah,

Welcome to you and Sunny from me, too! My vet tech also gave me incorrect information at the start of treatment, including telling me to fast my dog on the day of his ACTH test, or to give him the Vetoryl with "the teensiest amount of food possible" that day. Because of the education I was given here, I told her that was not the recommendation of the manufacturer and I was going to feed him as normally recommended. It was a somewhat uncomfortable position to be in, arguing with her as I did. But it is a good thing I did, because his results showed that the dosage he was on was too high!

I also did not consider asking for test results until my dog was diagnosed with Cushing's, and folks here wanted the actual numbers from them. But I had every right to have a copy of them, and it was no trouble asking for that. I kept all the results for my boy together so I had them available any time I needed them, whether that was to answer a question from someone here, or if there were an emergency requiring us to go somewhere other than his regular vet. I also think I learned a lot more about what was "normal" and what was not, as I could look at the results, post them here and search Google for information about different values. I like to research things sometimes. ;)

Anyway... welcome! I look forward to learning more about your Sunny!!

Shana

Thanks, Shana! Yeah, I'm not that crazy about this particular vet tech. I don't think she is that experienced yet. Now I know to double check whatever she says with the vet, or with you guys! I'm so relieved I can ask you guys questions!

We are having the second ACTH test on Friday, and the vet already knows to email me the results. I explained to the receptionist that I had joined an online support group so the vet wouldn't think I was doubting her. She told me she has discussed the results of all the tests with the internist who works for the company that makes Vetoryl, and she will do so again after the second ACTH test.

Thanks!!

Deborah and Sunny

[dedenorio]

Sunny is having his second ACTH test this afternoon. I mentioned to the vet that the tech had told me to fast him last time and only give him a couple tbsp of food with the Vetoryl. She said that was correct and that I should do the same this time.

And now the poor dog is hounding me because he is hungry! :(

[labblab]

I am sorry to tell you that your vet is incorrect re: these instructions. Per Dechra, the manufacturer of brandname Vetoryl, a dog should be fed a full breakfast simultaneously with receiving the medication 4-6 hours prior to testing. Otherwise, the drug will not be metabolized properly and the test results will be inaccurate. Your vet needs to contact Dechra directly if she questions this info. Here's a link that explains the reasoning in greater detail. If it were me, I would print this information to give to your vet and then reschedule the test for another day. It is too expensive and dangerous to run this test if the results cannot be trusted.

http://www.endocrinevet.info/2011/03/whats-best-protocol-for-acth.html

Marianne

[DoxieMama]

I am sorry to tell you that your vet is incorrect re: these instructions. Per Dechra, the manufacturer of brandname Vetoryl, a dog should be fed a full breakfast simultaneously with receiving the medication 4-6 hours prior to testing. Otherwise, the drug will not be metabolized properly and the test results will be inaccurate. Your vet needs to contact Dechra directly if she questions this info. Here's a link that explains the reasoning in greater detail. If it were me, I would print this information to give to your vet and then reschedule the test for another day. It is too expensive and dangerous to run this test if the results cannot be trusted.

http://www.endocrinevet.info/2011/03/whats-best-protocol-for-acth.html

Marianne

Quoting and BOLDING for emphasis! Please reschedule and make sure the proper protocols are followed. :)

[dedenorio]

Hmm... That is troubling. My vet called earlier today (before I saw your response) to give me the test results:

Baseline: 158

After the injection: 228

She thinks he is stable now, and wants to keep him at 60 mg of vetoryl.

Ugh, this is frustrating... :(

Thanks!

[labblab]

Well, the good news is that Sunny's ACTH results are high enough that even if they are inaccurately skewed upward, it seems unlikely that his true cortisol level is running too low. For the benefit of our U.S. readers, here's the conversion:

Baseline cortisol: 5.7 ug/dL
Post-ACTH level: 8.3 ug/dL

However, since you have reported little improvement in his thirst and urination, the big dilemma is whether or not he would benefit from a dosing increase, especially since his post ACTH response now at the 30-day mark is actually a tiny bit higher than it was at the 14-day mark. The question is, what is his genuine cortisol level when he is being dosed daily along with a full meal. Because if this was indeed an accurate reading, you could safely increase his dose at this time if his symptoms are not yet being adequately controlled. Per Dechra's monitoring directives published in the Vetoryl package insert in conjunction with the following post-ACTH testing range:


> 5.4 to 9.1 ug/dL or > 150 to 250 nmol/L:
EITHER: Continue on current dose if clinical signs are well controlled OR: Increase dose if clinical signs of hyperadrenocorticism are still evident*

For the benefit of your vet's other Cushing's patients in addition to Sunny, I strongly encourage you to pursue this testing issue with her. I don't mean to be bashing her unfairly, but I truly must question her recommendations. Opening and splitting the 120 mg. capsules is contrary to Dechra's specific warnings ("Do not empty capsule contents and do not attempt to divide the capsules"), essentially fasting Sunny on the day of the monitoring ACTH test is bad advice, and if Sunny remains symptomatic, telling you to continue on the same dose is also an issue. However, at this point, we don't really know where Sunny's cortisol level truly falls on non-testing days and that makes a dosage increase more questionable.

I will add that a couple of tablespoons of food is perhaps better than no food at all. But I have personally contacted Dechra myself to try to clarify their testing directive: "Ensure morning capsule was given with food." And they have told me directly that a full meal is the best method for guaranteeing that the medication is properly absorbed and maximally effective on testing days.

I am sorry to keep being the bearer of bad tidings, but since you've come to us for our suggestions and feedback, in good conscience I cannot ignore problems that seem to be surfacing. :o

Marianne

[Whiskey's Mom]

I know it's troubling to get conflicting advice but I have to comment also. Please please trust the advice from Marianne and Shana. I'm so glad I did.

[dedenorio]

Well, the good news is that Sunny's ACTH results are high enough that even if they are inaccurately skewed upward, it seems unlikely that his true cortisol level is running too low. For the benefit of our U.S. readers, here's the conversion:

Baseline cortisol: 5.7 ug/dL
Post-ACTH level: 8.3 ug/dL

However, since you have reported little improvement in his thirst and urination, the big dilemma is whether or not he would benefit from a dosing increase, especially since his post ACTH response now at the 30-day mark is actually a tiny bit higher than it was at the 14-day mark. The question is, what is his genuine cortisol level when he is being dosed daily along with a full meal. Because if this was indeed an accurate reading, you could safely increase his dose at this time if his symptoms are not yet being adequately controlled. Per Dechra's monitoring directives published in the Vetoryl package insert in conjunction with the following post-ACTH testing range:



For the benefit of your vet's other Cushing's patients in addition to Sunny, I strongly encourage you to pursue this testing issue with her. I don't mean to be bashing her unfairly, but I truly must question her recommendations. Opening and splitting the 120 mg. capsules is contrary to Dechra's specific warnings ("Do not empty capsule contents and do not attempt to divide the capsules"), essentially fasting Sunny on the day of the monitoring ACTH test is bad advice, and if Sunny remains symptomatic, telling you to continue on the same dose is also an issue. However, at this point, we don't really know where Sunny's cortisol level truly falls on non-testing days and that makes a dosage increase more questionable.

I will add that a couple of tablespoons of food is perhaps better than no food at all. But I have personally contacted Dechra myself to try to clarify their testing directive: "Ensure morning capsule was given with food." And they have told me directly that a full meal is the best method for guaranteeing that the medication is properly absorbed and maximally effective on testing days.

I am sorry to keep being the bearer of bad tidings, but since you've come to us for our suggestions and feedback, in good conscience I cannot ignore problems that seem to be surfacing. :o

Marianne

Thank you, Marianne, for the thorough reply! I will ask the vet why she said to fast Sunny, see what she says.

I think she is somewhat reluctant to raise his dosage for fear he might flip into Addison's disease...

As for splitting the powder, she said it was the company's recommendation because they were out of the 60mg capsules (I'm in Canada, not sure if it's a different representative?)

Sunny seems to be holding his pee a bit longer, and isn't drinking quite as much water as before starting the vetoryl, but still drinks a lot. And when I take him out to the backyard to pee he eats a lot of snow too.

If we assume Sunny was taking the correct dosage, should I have noticed a significant improvement 5 weeks after starting the vetoryl? I don't know how much of his lethargy is due to Cushing's or age...

Thanks!! :)

[labblab]

Sunny seems to be holding his pee a bit longer, and isn't drinking quite as much water as before starting the vetoryl, but still drinks a lot. And when I take him out to the backyard to pee he eats a lot of snow too.

If we assume Sunny was taking the correct dosage, should I have noticed a significant improvement 5 weeks after starting the vetoryl? I don't know how much of his lethargy is due to Cushing's or age...


After five weeks on the correct dosage, you would be hoping to see significant improvement in symptoms such as excessive thirst and urination. Symptoms such as muscle weakness, skin/coat abnormalities, pot belly, etc., typically take a longer time to show improvement. But thirst, urination and hunger are quicker to show resolution when cortisol is brought down to a therapeutic level. And per Dechra's monitoring recommendations, a cortisol level of 8.6 ug/dL is still too high if overt symptoms such as excessive thirst and urination are still persisting beyond the 30-day ACTH test.

If I were you, I would not automatically assume that your vet is fully aware of Dechra's monitoring and treatment recommendations. We have encountered other GP vets who assume that the desired goal of trilostane treatment is simply to lower cortisol into the range that would be considered "normal" for a dog without Cushing's. However, this is not the case. If inecessary in order to maintain symptom control, desired cortisol levels for dogs taking trilostane are lower than non-Cushing's norms. So if we had confidence that 8.6 ug/dL was an accurate reading for Sunny from a non-fasted sample, you would be nowhere close to an Addisonian state and a dosing increase would be warranted.

As far as splitting the 120 mg. capsules, for my own curiosity, I am going to call the U.S. office of Dechra myself in order to see what they tell me. You do not have that same option in Canada (Dechra won't talk directly to owners there), but I'm curious to see what they will tell me here in the states. This splitting question has come up frequently enough on the forum that I want to hear the answer myself from the horse's mouth, as it were. However, since 30 mg. capsules were available to your vet, I still don't see why giving two 30 mg. capsules was not thought to be the better option right from the get-go. Anyway, I'll report back if I can get an answer from Dechra.

The bottom line is that I would not make assumptions about the reasoning behind your vet's recommendations that seem to be counter to Dechra's published recommendations. I would specifically question her as to why she is handling things differently than the norm. I'm not sure whether we've given this to you before, but here's a link that includes Dechra's Product Insert for Vetoryl, as well as a very helpful testing and monitoring flowchart. You'll see that the flowchart clearly states that Vetoryl should be given with food prior to testing, and that a dosing increase should be cosidered after the 30-day mark in the event of unresolved symptoms accompanied by a cortisol level higher than 5.4 ug/dL.

http://www.dechra.us/Admin/Public/Download.aspx?file=Files%2FFiles%2FSupportMaterial Downloads%2Fus%2FUS-046-TEC.pdf

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Hi Marianne,

Did you have a chance to contact Dechra about splitting the powder in the 120mg capsules?

I ask because for the past couple of weeks Sunny had stopped peeing inside and his water consumption was practically normal (he was also taking the 2 30mg pills during this time). I ran out of those capsules on Monday so the vet said to go back to splitting the powder, which I started to do on Tuesday. And lo and behold, on Thursday Sunny went back to drinking tons of water and peeing inside. It was also on Tuesday that he started to get fussy about eating -- not sure if he can smell the powder or what.

The vet asked me to take him over there yesterday for another ACTH test and to check his thyroid since he has been very lethargic. They should have the results early next week.

I left her a message asking her to order the 60 (or 30) mg pills since the powder is clearly not doing the job.

It's so frustrating, he had started to get better and now there is this setback.

Thanks,

Deborah

[labblab]

Frustrating indeed, because now I'm worrying you'll have conducted yet another ACTH test under less than optimal circumstances :o. My concern is that there will really be no way to know exactly where Sunny's cortisol level had settled while taking the bona fide 30 mg. capsules. It seems to me that three days of the split 120s could end up with a skewed result once again. Since he was doing so well on the intact capsules, I'm again thrown back into the same uncertainty about making any dosage change based on results from this ACTH test, no matter how it turns out. It seems to be too much of a coincidence that the problems emerged in conjunction with splitting the meds. :(

Thanks so much for reminding me about calling Dechra. I did try to talk to them on 12-23, but the office was closed down for the Christmas holiday. And then I totally forgot about calling back. But I'll definitely give it another try next week.

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Thanks, I appreciate it!

I will insist with the vet to order the 60mg capsules and forget about the 120mg.

I don't know if it's a problem with Dechra's representative here in Canada -- not only did they push the 120mg (they refused to take it back since apparently there is little demand for such a high dose), but with the 30 mg, they didn't sell me a brand new box -- they were loose cartons with an expiration date of January 2017, i.e, this was probaly medication they would have to toss out yet they charged me full price for it. :(

Oh, well. Hopefully we can get Sunny back on track with the 60mg soon.

Thank you!!

Deborah

[labblab]

I don't know if it's a problem with Dechra's representative here in Canada -- not only did they push the 120mg (they refused to take it back since apparently there is little demand for such a high dose), but with the 30 mg, they didn't sell me a brand new box -- they were loose cartons with an expiration date of January 2017, i.e, this was probaly medication they would have to toss out yet they charged me full price for it. :(

If your vet is the one who pushed the 120 mg. on you, and also the nearly out-dated 30 mgs., I'm not so sure the real problem lies with Dechra. Something is starting to sound a little shady here. When you say the 30 mgs. were not in a brand new box but instead a "loose carton," do you mean the blister packs were not in a marked Vetoryl box but were just handed to you loose? On the face of it, there's probably nothing wrong with you being given loose blister packs -- vets often open stock bottles or multi-dosing packages in order to dispense a more limited number of pills or capsules. But the fact that these 30 mg. capsules were almost out-of-date certainly seems a bit suspicious -- like perhaps the vet was indeed unloading unused product on you with both dosage strengths. Maybe there truly has been a shortage of 60 mg. capsules up in Canada, but something about all this just doesn't sound right. It'll be interesting to see whether 60 mg. capsules are available now.

I hate it that I keep sounding so negative about your vet, but gee whiz, these repetitive issues are disturbing. Anyway, I'll let you know what I can find out from Dechra U.S.A.

[dedenorio]

Right, I can't say for sure whether it was the representative or the vet. Yes, I meant the blister packs :)

I have been with my vet for 10 years now, so I don't think she would try to swindle me -- it could have been a mistake made by a tech who ordered it.

A few weeks ago she mentioned the company had the 60mg back in stock. If not, I will ask her to get the 30mg. I want to get Sunny back on a "real" dose ASAP... :(

Thanks!!

Deborah

[dedenorio]

Hi,

Does Cushing's make them feel hotter than usual? Sunny has started sleeping on the kitchen floor and he never used to do that...

Thanks,

Deborah

[Joan2517]

I think it does. My Lena, who used to love basking in the sun and in front of a roaring fire, started looking for cooler spots to lay down. She didn't want to cuddle so much and would stay on my lap less. In bed she wouldn't sleep next to me anymore and in the summer, she would lay at the end of the bed in front of the air conditioner...this from a dog who used to go under the covers and sleep next to my thigh.

We started using a cooling gel mat when we were outside and she liked that.

[Squirt's Mom]

Yes, our cush babies simply cannot handle the heat...seeking cool places to lay is one of the hallmark signs of canine Cushing's. Good observation, Mom!

[dedenorio]

So, the vet called this morning -- Sunny is now hypo thyroid and his liver enzyme is about 10 times the normal level. She wants him to have an abdominal ultrasound, and depending on the result, maybe also an MRI.

I told her I wanted her to order the 60mg or at least the 30mg of vetoryl. A little later on I got a call back from the vet tech saying that Dechra now required pre-payment before they will ship the vetoryl!!! Seriously?? And no, I don't think it's the vet asking for the pre-payment since I have spent a small fortune there over the years and have always paid for everything upfront.

Sunny has also stopped eating his raw food. I have tried adding treats, microwaving it, hand feeding, but as of Saturday none of it was working. The vet asked me to put some dry food on the raw, and he ate some of the dry but not the raw. This morning he was getting fussy about eating the kibble too...

I am heartbroken. I am afraid I may have to make a decision soon. :(

[dedenorio]

Yes, our cush babies simply cannot handle the heat...seeking cool places to lay is one of the hallmark signs of canine Cushing's. Good observation, Mom!
Thanks... Sunny has always been very sensitive to heat (being a Siberian Husky and all) but lately it has been even more noticeable. I've been keeping the thermostat at around 64F. I will try to lower it, and maybe spend more time outside with him. We will be getting a few inches of snow tonight and tomorrow, yeah!!

Thanks!

[dedenorio]

The vet asked for a urine sample -- his urine color is burnt orange, almost brown... :(

[Squirt's Mom]

That sounds like an infection! Any lab results on that yet?

[dedenorio]

That sounds like an infection! Any lab results on that yet?
Not yet, I may know today or tomorrow. He had another ACTH test on Friday and they also tested his thyroid and liver enzymes, and the vet said that his liver enzyme level is around 1,000 and normally it should have been around 125... :(

[molly muffin]

Here in Canada the vets don't deal directly with Dechra but instead with the medication representative, many of whom are clueless. Even my vet didn't know who Dechra was when I mentioned it to her. So I'm a bit concerned that the rep is pushing whatever they have on hand.

You can buy vetroyl from an online pharmacy here in Canada. I stopped getting mine completely from my vet and when i went to the IMS, they went with the compounded trilostane. But you can get vetroyl too from an online pharmacy. I'm in Ontario and used Thepetpharmacy.
https://thepetpharmacy.ca/product-list?first_letter=v

they have 60mg in stock. Your vet just needs to call in the prescription to them. They can also do compounded trilostane (you have to email them to ask the price for that though, as it doesn't show on the website).

They will mail to you expedite Canada Post. (if you are not in Ontario there is probably a local pet pharmacist you can find to do the same thing.

[dedenorio]

Here in Canada the vets don't deal directly with Dechra but instead with the medication representative, many of whom are clueless. Even my vet didn't know who Dechra was when I mentioned it to her. So I'm a bit concerned that the rep is pushing whatever they have on hand.

You can buy vetroyl from an online pharmacy here in Canada. I stopped getting mine completely from my vet and when i went to the IMS, they went with the compounded trilostane. But you can get vetroyl too from an online pharmacy. I'm in Ontario and used Thepetpharmacy.
https://thepetpharmacy.ca/product-list?first_letter=v

they have 60mg in stock. Your vet just needs to call in the prescription to them. They can also do compounded trilostane (you have to email them to ask the price for that though, as it doesn't show on the website).

They will mail to you expedite Canada Post. (if you are not in Ontario there is probably a local pet pharmacist you can find to do the same thing.


Oh wow, this is amazing!! Thank you!! I'm in Toronto, and the price I am being charged for the 60mg is close to $50 higher than this online pharmacy. I will email the vet and see if they can still cancel the order. I'm not sure the vetoryl rep will go for it, since they asked for a pre-payment. It's worth a shot though.

Thank you soooo much!!! :):):)

Deborah

[molly muffin]

Hi Deborah, I'm in Mississauga. The pharmacy is actually in Toronto, so you can pick up if that is easier for you.

Your vet will need to call the prescription in to the pharmacy and they will fill it. What I did is have the vet tell you when they call it in, then I'd call the pharmacy, verify they got it, give my credit card info and tell them I want it mailed. They are really good about getting it out quickly and I normally received the next day after mailing it. My IMS at the Mississauga/Oakville ER vetted them and now also use them for other patients so I know they are a good pharmacy. I never had any problems with them.

[dedenorio]

Hi Deborah, I'm in Mississauga. The pharmacy is actually in Toronto, so you can pick up if that is easier for you.

Your vet will need to call the prescription in to the pharmacy and they will fill it. What I did is have the vet tell you when they call it in, then I'd call the pharmacy, verify they got it, give my credit card info and tell them I want it mailed. They are really good about getting it out quickly and I normally received the next day after mailing it. My IMS at the Mississauga/Oakville ER vetted them and now also use them for other patients so I know they are a good pharmacy. I never had any problems with them.

Great! Thank you!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

[labblab]

I just now spoke by telephone with a technical representative of Dechra U.S.A. She confirmed the accuracy of the explicit warning printed in the Vetoryl Product Insert against opening capsules and manually handling/splitting the powder in order to manipulate the dose. She said there is no circumstance in which Dechra themselves would advise pet owners nor vets to do this.

Marianne

[dedenorio]

I just now spoke by telephone with a technical representative of Dechra U.S.A. She confirmed the accuracy of the explicit warning printed in the Vetoryl Product Insert against opening capsules and manually handling/splitting the powder in order to manipulate the dose. She said there is no circumstance in which Dechra themselves would advise pet owners nor vets to do this.

Marianne

Thanks, Marianne, I really appreciate it.

Unfortunately I had to say goodbye to Sunny today. He went in for an ultrasound and the vet found he had liver cancer. He was barely eating the last couple of days.

Thank you to everyone on the list. You have been incredibly helpful.

Deborah

[DoxieMama]

Oh Deborah, I am so so sorry.

Run free, sweet Sunny.

[judymaggie]

Deborah -- I am so sorry that you had to say "good bye" to Sunny today. Doing that spared him many difficult days ahead -- you made the ultimate decision for a pet owner. Take care of yourself and, hopefully, soon you can focus on the good times you and Sunny had together.

[dedenorio]

Thank you all. I am heartbroken.

[Joan2517]

Of course you are, Deborah. It is so hard to lose our babies, even when it is time. Sunny is out of pain and discomfort now and hopefully that will bring you some comfort.

Sending you comforting thoughts...

Joan

[dedenorio]

Of course you are, Deborah. It is so hard to lose our babies, even when it is time. Sunny is out of pain and discomfort now and hopefully that will bring you some comfort.

Sending you comforting thoughts...

Joan
Thank you, Joan, I appreciate it.

[LaurieS]

I just read through this whole thread and im so sorry you had to say goodbye to Sunny. It breaks my heart and i didnt even know him. Ive lost so many of my fur babies (including 2 siberian huskies) and had to make that decision more times than i want to remember. It is our responsibility as their caretakers but one of the hardest thing we will ever do. My thoughts are with you during this hard time.

[dedenorio]

Deborah -- I am so sorry that you had to say "good bye" to Sunny today. Doing that spared him many difficult days ahead -- you made the ultimate decision for a pet owner. Take care of yourself and, hopefully, soon you can focus on the good times you and Sunny had together.


I just read through this whole thread and im so sorry you had to say goodbye to Sunny. It breaks my heart and i didnt even know him. Ive lost so many of my fur babies (including 2 siberian huskies) and had to make that decision more times than i want to remember. It is our responsibility as their caretakers but one of the hardest thing we will ever do. My thoughts are with you during this hard time.

Thank you... It's been a rough couple of months, between the Cushing's diagnosis and losing him today. But they are worth it. I can't imagine going through life without fur babies.

[labblab]

Oh Deborah, I'm truly so sorry for your loss of Sunny. We hope it may be a comfort to you to know that he will always be honored here on our special memorial thread:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8383

After being so devoted to his care during these past months, I know it must feel so strange and so sad to be arising this morning without him beside you. Please know you are always welcome to return to us here, to let us know how you're doing or to share special memories of your brave boy.

Again, I am so sorry.
Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Deborah,

I am so sorry to hear you had to let Sunny go. I know you are heartbroken but you gave him freedom from a failing body, a great gift indeed. Fly free, Sunny, fly free.

In deepest sympathy,
Leslie, Trinket, Sophie, Fox, Bud, and all our angels

[Whiskey's Mom]

So very very sorry about Sunny. Wishing you peace and comfort in the days ahead.
Annie and Whiskey

[dedenorio]

Oh Deborah, I'm truly so sorry for your loss of Sunny. We hope it may be a comfort to you to know that he will always be honored here on our special memorial thread:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8383

After being so devoted to his care during these past months, I know it must feel so strange and so sad to be arising this morning without him beside you. Please know you are always welcome to return to us here, to let us know how you're doing or to share special memories of your brave boy.

Again, I am so sorry.
Marianne

Thank you, Marianne. I am missing him terribly, and can't seem to stop crying. I adopted Sunny almost 7 years ago, 6 days after losing my beloved husky Jake. Sunny literally saved/rescued ME.

Every night when I got home from work the first thing I would do was pet him and kiss him. I can't bear the thought of coming home and not finding him. I look for him every time I turn around. I even imagined I saw a brand new pee stain on the carpet this morning that wasn't there yesterday!! :(

Thank you all for your kind words. It means a lot to me.

[Whiskey's Mom]

My heart breaks for you and reading your last post has me in tears. I know I will be in the same situation without Whiskey someday and I just can't imagine how I'll cope. I'll be thinking of you & sending comfort and strength across the miles.

[dedenorio]

My heart breaks for you and reading your last post has me in tears. I know I will be in the same situation without Whiskey someday and I just can't imagine how I'll cope. I'll be thinking of you & sending comfort and strength across the miles.

Thank you so much. I apologize for being so maudlin. I'm just so so sad... :(

[labblab]

We totally understand, Deborah, and there is no need for you to apologize for your grief, ever. People who have not experienced a deep spiritual bond with a dog do not understand how deeply the loss pierces the heart. But this is your safe place to come any time to genuinely talk. This is a huge loss for you and we understand how much Sunny's life mattered, and how much it hurts that he is gone.

Huge hugs,
Marianne

[dedenorio]

We totally understand, Deborah, and there is no need for you to apologize for your grief, ever. People who have not experienced a deep spiritual bond with a dog do not understand how deeply the loss pierces the heart. But this is your safe place to come any time to genuinely talk. This is a huge loss for you and we understand how much Sunny's life mattered, and how much it hurts that he is gone.

Huge hugs,
Marianne

Thanks... I actually pity people who have never experienced the love of a dog and for a dog. There is nothing like it. Having a dog is literally what gives me the most joy in life.

I think I will need to get another fur baby soon since I can't have my Sunny back. I would gladly clean up rivers of pee if it meant having him back. :( I think the only way I can begin to heal is to have another fur baby next to me, even though it will also reinforce the fact that Sunny is no longer here, just like Sunny reminded me that Jake was no longer here. I hope I can be reunited with both of them some day.

Thanks,

Deborah

[Whiskey's Mom]

Oh gosh that's not being maudlin and no apology necessary. You put my thoughts into words and I can totally relate to everything you've said. The unconditional love and support we get from our dogs is so special and wonderful and anyone who has never experienced it has truly missed out.

[Joan2517]

I still cry for Lena every day, Deborah, and it's been almost 11 months. I miss her every single day...some days I just can't stop the tears.

Having Sibbie has helped a lot, she's so cute and full of energy, and I love her madly, but I still miss my Lee constantly. We became seniors together and she was a huge part of me and my heart.

Come here and reminisce...we all do, and we all know exactly how you feel right now. Not a good feeling, but please know you have plenty of friends here who totally understand.

Hugs,
Joan

[dedenorio]

Thanks... It will be 7 years since I lost Jake, and I still miss him terribly... Now I will be missing him and Sunny for the rest of my life. Jake was literally the love of my life, but I also love Sunny with all my heart and am crying for him just as much as I cried for Jake. They are all special and unique, and can never be replaced.

I remember when I took Sunny to my vet for the first time, and the receptionist said that Sunny had really big shoes to fill, since she knew how much I loved Jake. I told her those shoes could never be filled, and that Sunny would fill his own shoes. And that is exactly what he did...

[Joan2517]

Hi Deborah,

Just checking in to see how you are...I've been thinking of you and what you said about Sunny filling his own shoes, and you are right. That's what they do, each and every one of them.

Joan

[dedenorio]

Hi Deborah,

Just checking in to see how you are...I've been thinking of you and what you said about Sunny filling his own shoes, and you are right. That's what they do, each and every one of them.

Joan

Oh, Joan, thank you so much. I am still a huge mess. Started to watch a video of him this morning and totally lost it, couldn't even finish... :(

I had this week off (had requested it last year, never dreaming why I would actually need it), and am dreading having to go back to work while I'm still crying every few minutes.

Last night my next door neighbor came by with her dog to talk about something (she didn't know what happened), and I called Bianca (her labradoodle) to me and she came and leaned into me with her head between my legs while I pet her... That was the first moment of solace and calm I had in the past 2 days.

I started looking for Siberian Husky rescues in my area yesterday. Couldn't find any in Toronto, although there were several with a rescue group in Indianapolis. I think it is unlikely they will want to adopt to someone who lives so far away. It's frustrating, seeing so many huskies who need a good home, knowing I could give them a great life and smother them with love. They had videos of all the dogs, and I pretty much wanted to take all of them home with me...

Thank you so much for thinking of me and Sunny. It helps a lot.

Deborah

[Joan2517]

You never know about the rescue groups...I know there are some pilots who deliver dogs all over the country. Couldn't hurt to find out if the ones you are looking at are a part of something like that.

I think Bianca sensed you needed a hug, Deborah. Dogs are very aware. My Gable knows when I am missing Lee and will usually come over and put his big head in my lap and stare at me. Sometimes Sibbie will just want to cuddle, which she usually doesn't, when I am feeling sad. They are such a comfort to me.

I dreaded going back to work, too...but I was so busy that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. It's usually just me and one other woman and she has gotten used to hearing me sniffling or coming into my office and seeing my red and swollen eyes. She never says anything, but I know she knows why.

It's so hard to lose them...

Sending you many hugs....

Joan

[dedenorio]

You never know about the rescue groups...I know there are some pilots who deliver dogs all over the country. Couldn't hurt to find out if the ones you are looking at are a part of something like that.

I think Bianca sensed you needed a hug, Deborah. Dogs are very aware. My Gable knows when I am missing Lee and will usually come over and put his big head in my lap and stare at me. Sometimes Sibbie will just want to cuddle, which she usually doesn't, when I am feeling sad. They are such a comfort to me.

I dreaded going back to work, too...but I was so busy that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. It's usually just me and one other woman and she has gotten used to hearing me sniffling or coming into my office and seeing my red and swollen eyes. She never says anything, but I know she knows why.

It's so hard to lose them...

Sending you many hugs....

Joan

Thanks... Unfortunately my work is extremely busy, with people bugging me all the time -- we have an insanely demanding and high-strung boss. I told only one of my co-workers about it, and today I asked her if she had mentioned it to the boss, and whether he had said anything, and she told me he didn't say anything, and she was really put off by it. Yet another example why I like dogs so much better than humans...

I emailed the rescue group yesterday but haven't heard back. I will also need to discuss it with my brother (we live together) -- I already told him I literally can't live without a dog. He is also missing Sunny terribly. I don't know if he would be willing to drive 8 hrs each way for us to go meet the rescues though... Assuming the rescue group would accept us...

I guess in the meantime I can always go pet Bianca. Her humans don't pay much attention to her, and she is really starved for affection.

Sending hugs your way too. Hug your fur babies for me!

[molly muffin]

OMG Deborah, I just saw your news about the loss of Sunny. I am sooooo sorry. :( My heart just goes out to you. I lost my molly 4 months ago yesterday and it still hurts.

There are sometimes huskys that come up on with the rescues or with one of the humane societies here in Toronto. Keep an eye on petfinder.ca and adoptapet.com. You can save searches and have them email you when one that fits your critieria comes up. It may take awhile but it is possible to find a husky. I saw one this past summer in Mississauga that just beautiful. So, you never know.

It is hard to say goodbye and it is hard to find the right one to bring into your life afterwards too.

I spend a lot of time playing with my friends dogs currently.

[dedenorio]

OMG Deborah, I just saw your news about the loss of Sunny. I am sooooo sorry. :( My heart just goes out to you. I lost my molly 4 months ago yesterday and it still hurts.

There are sometimes huskys that come up on with the rescues or with one of the humane societies here in Toronto. Keep an eye on petfinder.ca and adoptapet.com. You can save searches and have them email you when one that fits your critieria comes up. It may take awhile but it is possible to find a husky. I saw one this past summer in Mississauga that just beautiful. So, you never know.

It is hard to say goodbye and it is hard to find the right one to bring into your life afterwards too.

I spend a lot of time playing with my friends dogs currently.

Thank you... I'm a mess, crying non-stop. Thanks for the tip about petfinder and adoptapet -- I will save the search since right now the closest ones are in upstate NY.

I've tried watching videos of Sunny but I burst into tears, couldn't even finish it...

If you would like to see a picture of him, Marianne uploaded it for me today to the memorial page.

Thanks,

Deborah

[labblab]

Deborah, I've visited Sunny several times now on our memorial page, and it's so easy to see why you love and miss him so. What a sweet and handsome boy!

I really hope one of these rescues will recognize what a wonderful mama you are and allow for a long-distance adoption. Back when my own Cushpup died many years ago, my husband and I originally thought we'd wait awhile before welcoming another fur baby. But I just couldn't bear the quiet and empty house, and we ended up bringing home our sweet Peg within just a couple months. Knowing that she needed me was the only thing that helped me refocus from my grief over losing Barkis. We lost Peg from issues of old age this past summer, but thankfully we still have another younger dog with us in our home and our hearts. Otherwise, I feel certain I would have been right out there looking, too. That's just the way I am. So I really hope something works out for you very soon.

Thinking of you and both your sweet angel boys this morning.
Marianne

[Joan2517]

Gorgeous picture of him, Deborah!

[dedenorio]

Deborah, I've visited Sunny several times now on our memorial page, and it's so easy to see why you love and miss him so. What a sweet and handsome boy!

I really hope one of these rescues will recognize what a wonderful mama you are and allow for a long-distance adoption. Back when my own Cushpup died many years ago, my husband and I originally thought we'd wait awhile before welcoming another fur baby. But I just couldn't bear the quiet and empty house, and we ended up bringing home our sweet Peg within just a couple months. Knowing that she needed me was the only thing that helped me refocus from my grief over losing Barkis. We lost Peg from issues of old age this past summer, but thankfully we still have another younger dog with us in our home and our hearts. Otherwise, I feel certain I would have been right out there looking, too. That's just the way I am. So I really hope something works out for you very soon.

Thinking of you and both your sweet angel boys this morning.
Marianne

Thanks, Marianne. That's exactly it, the emptiness and loneliness in the house is unbearable. I've asked Jake and Sunny to help send a new pup my way...

I just got an answer about a dog from PetFinder in upstate NY. A female that was bought off a drug dealer for $50, who had a collar embedded in her neck, almost no fur and emaciated. She looks really healthy now. I sure hope there is a special kind of hell for people who abuse animals! :mad:

The lady asked when we would like to meet the pup. I told her we were a couple hours drive away, didn't say we were in Toronto... The only thing is that this little girl does resource guard. I never had an issue like that in a dog before, so I'm not sure how big a deal it is. Since she would be an only dog I guess it would be ok.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone on the list. Your kindness gives me faith in humans -- have read such horrible stories of abuse as I look at pups on PetFinder. It baffles me how anyone can do such things to an innocent animal. :(

[dedenorio]

Gorgeous picture of him, Deborah!

Thank you, Joan! Yes, he was absolutely lovely. Then again, I have a hard time finding any dog to be ugly. :p

I was going to attach a picture of my other fur baby, Jake, but it looks like I can't just upload it from my computer. He was a long-haired husky, one blue eye and one brown. Really striking. People would stop me on the street all the time to meet him.

But what really matters was how loving and wonderful both of them were. They were the reason I was able to put up with the junk that life throws our way. Oh, well. Hopefully I won't have to be without a fur baby for very long...

Deborah

[labblab]

Deborah, if you'd like to send a photo of Jake to our gmailbox like you did for Sunny, I will be pleased to try to transfer it here. In fact, if you wish to tell us the date Jake passed, we can add his name and photo to our memorial album as an honorary Cushpup. :o

Also, just wanted to let you know that several of us regularly light candles for our babies using this special website:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=517

As you will see, you can add your candles in a way that they join with others from our members. Or you can just add your candles to all the others from around the world. Lighting my candles there has always allowed me to give a voice to my own grief and brought me a bit of comfort.

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Deborah, if you'd like to send a photo of Jake to our gmailbox like you did for Sunny, I will be pleased to try to transfer it here. In fact, if you wish to tell us the date Jake passed, I will add his name and photo to our memorial album as an honorary Cushpup. :o

Also, just wanted to let you know that several of us regularly light candles for our babies using this special website:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=517

As you will see, you can add your candles in a way that they join with others from our members. Or you can just add your candles to all the others from around the world. Lighting my candles there has always allowed me to give a voice to my own grief and brought me a bit of comfort.

Marianne

Wow, what a wonderful thing! Yes, I will definitely light candles on the site for both of my babies. Thank you for letting me know.

I have sent you a picture of Jake. I hadn't been able to look at pictures of him since I lost him 7 years ago. It really sucks. :(

[molly muffin]

I was just looking on letfinder and it might be better to search husky than Siberian husky as I got more results that way.
Resource guarding would be an issue is you tried to take something away or with other animals. They will snap at a person or animal, kid who tries to touch, take their stuff.
Had a bit of that with Molly who was a rescue too. I had to stop rawhide chews of any kind as she became a terror over it.
Sunny is just gorgeous. I often pop into the memorial threads and look at the ones we have lost. It's good to remember them. They were so very loved.

[dedenorio]

I was just looking on letfinder and it might be better to search husky than Siberian husky as I got more results that way.
Resource guarding would be an issue is you tried to take something away or with other animals. They will snap at a person or animal, kid who tries to touch, take their stuff.
Had a bit of that with Molly who was a rescue too. I had to stop rawhide chews of any kind as she became a terror over it.
Sunny is just gorgeous. I often pop into the memorial threads and look at the ones we have lost. It's good to remember them. They were so very loved.

Thanks, Sharlene! I will try searching for just "husky" then. The rescue person I emailed in Rochester, NY, replied asking when I wanted to meet the pup, I replied maybe this weekend, that I was a couple hrs drive away, and I didn't hear back. Maybe it was the distance thing?? So frustrating!

I have just lit a candle for both Sunny and Jake. What a wonderful site. Thank you guys for setting it up!

Deborah

[labblab]

Awwww Jake looks like such a sweetheart, too! For anyone who wants to visit Jake and his photo, he is now in our 2010 Remembering album. :o

Marianne

[dedenorio]

Awwww Jake looks like such a sweetheart, too! For anyone who wants to visit Jake and his photo, he is now in our 2010 Remembering album. :o

Marianne

Oh, Marianne, he was... Everybody loved him, and he loved every person, dog, and cat (and huskies usually see cats as a snack...) he met. He was my snuggle bunny. Sunny was very affectionate, but more reserved. Jake just wanted to be wherever I was...

[molly muffin]

Just popping in to say I'm thinking of you.

[dedenorio]

Just popping in to say I'm thinking of you.

Thank you, Sharlene. It's 1 week today and I'm still in pieces. Have to keep my office door closed because I burst into tears all the time.

I kept myself busy during the weekend looking for rescues online, but the minute I stopped I started bawling again.

I keep on thinking of the soft fluff on the back of his ears, and how he liked it when I scratched his back right above his tail... I keep on thinking that I see him, even if it's just for a fraction of a second. :(

There was something I wanted to ask the list -- we all know how much our Cush babies have to pee, so until my brother and I decided to "smarten up" and get puppy pads, Sunny peed on the carpet a lot (the puppy pads would also leak sometimes). We went through quite a few bottles of Nature's Miracle, but I can still smell it in places, and if I can smell it, a new dog will definitely smell it too.

Any suggestions on the best way to remove urine odor before we adopt another dog? I do have a Bissel spot cleaner specific for pet accidents, but I'm not sure how well the Bissel formula does with odor elimination.

It's silly, but part of me likes it when I can still smell it. It's as if Sunny were still here...

Thank you all for being so kind and supportive. From the bottom of my heart.

Deborah

[labblab]

Hi Deborah,

Sharlene has a small, hand-held Bissell vac and tells us she is very happy about its ability to remove urine odor. Here's a related reply she posted some time ago when Molly was still with her :o. If Sharlene doesn't stop back by here soon, you can send her a PM to ask her about the formula, etc.


Molly doesn't have the constant peeing or peeing inside thing. She does however have the occasional accident. Like a thunderstorm will bring one on, or if we have people in the house and they are getting all the attention, then she might pee. So far, she has been going downstairs to do this, so I bought one of those Bissell little green machines. It's a hand held thing, and works wonders! When molly was younger and had accidents I had a steam vac. This Bissell though is fabulous. It really gets it all out and using an pet stain/odor remover in it, you'd never know there had been an accident there at all. I have wool rugs upstairs and wanted something that would be really good to clear it up if she had an accident on one of them. It's great!

Hugs,
Sharlene

I know how hard these anniversaries are -- thinking of you and sending big hugs.
Marianne

[labblab]

Just wanted to add that I totally get it about feeling torn over the prospect of removing Sunny's scent :o. Both times, when we lost Barkis and later Peg, it honestly took days and days before I could force myself to vacuum the carpets. As long as their doghair was still there, it was like they weren't totally gone. Peg has been our only black dog, and after the first vacuuming last summer I just cried and cried because the carpet was back to being all beige again after twelve years. It still is a bit hard for me, every single time I vacuum. These doggies just worm their way so deeply into our hearts, and we miss them so much. It's so hard to let loose of even a single thing once they're gone.

Marianne

[DoxieMama]

I have a confession to make. We have not truly cleaned the places in our bedroom where Visuddha peed yet. :o We cleaned everywhere else, carpets, furniture etc some time ago. But I just haven't been able to do that room yet. His crate is still set up in there too. Tomorrow he'll have been gone for 11 weeks.

It takes time.

[Joan2517]

The night Lena died, we had rushed back to the Emergency Vet Clinic (same as the night before) and I had brought a quilt that my mother had made for me for my 45th birthday (my Mom has Alzheimer's now) so that she would have something from home to comfort her.

When I went to say goodnight and kiss her while she was in the oxygen tank, not knowing I would never see her alive again, I noticed that the quilt was not there. I asked them about it and they said she had peed on it and it was in the laundry bin. I went out to the car and then realized that they might lose it and I couldn't let that happen. I called them and asked them to bring it out to me, which they did. By the time I got home it must've been 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning so I just left the bag with the quilt in the laundry room to wash when I got up.

At 5:00am I got a call from the clinic that she was in cardiac arrest and did they want me to have them keep working on her until I could get back there to say goodbye. I couldn't let my baby suffer, so I had them put the phone to her ear and told her how much I loved her (I completely forgot that she was deaf), and they put her to sleep. That was 11 months ago today.

I couldn't wash that quilt for a week...I just let it dry and hugged it, breathing in whatever scent of her was still on it until I was ready to wash it.

We cling to whatever we can, Deborah, until we are ready to let go...there is no set time to stop grieving.

[molly muffin]

I do use the little green machine from Bissell with the pet deodorizer cleaner stuff. That seems to work.

I haven't washed Molly's sheepskin rug that she slept on either. In fact it was one of the things my husband said "don't wash that!! and I didn't. Course now the cat has been sleeping on it, but we put her bed on top of it and she sleeps on that now. I know I'll have to at some point as our grandson will be on it I'm sure, but just .... not yet.

[dedenorio]

Hi Deborah,

Sharlene has a small, hand-held Bissell vac and tells us she is very happy about its ability to remove urine odor. Here's a related reply she posted some time ago when Molly was still with her :o. If Sharlene doesn't stop back by here soon, you can send her a PM to ask her about the formula, etc.



I know how hard these anniversaries are -- thinking of you and sending big hugs.
Marianne

Thanks, Marianne! I'll ask Sharlene about the formula.

Today was tough -- I got a call from the vet to let me know they had Sunny's ashes, which brought me to tears, and right after that I received an email from one of the rescue groups I applied to, chewing me out because I contacted another person for a follow-up rather than the head of adoptions -- in her email she (the head of adoptions) said I was trying to "hurry up the process" by going to the other person instead. Geez... :eek:

[dedenorio]

The night Lena died, we had rushed back to the Emergency Vet Clinic (same as the night before) and I had brought a quilt that my mother had made for me for my 45th birthday (my Mom has Alzheimer's now) so that she would have something from home to comfort her.

When I went to say goodnight and kiss her while she was in the oxygen tank, not knowing I would never see her alive again, I noticed that the quilt was not there. I asked them about it and they said she had peed on it and it was in the laundry bin. I went out to the car and then realized that they might lose it and I couldn't let that happen. I called them and asked them to bring it out to me, which they did. By the time I got home it must've been 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning so I just left the bag with the quilt in the laundry room to wash when I got up.

At 5:00am I got a call from the clinic that she was in cardiac arrest and did they want me to have them keep working on her until I could get back there to say goodbye. I couldn't let my baby suffer, so I had them put the phone to her ear and told her how much I loved her (I completely forgot that she was deaf), and they put her to sleep. That was 11 months ago today.

I couldn't wash that quilt for a week...I just let it dry and hugged it, breathing in whatever scent of her was still on it until I was ready to wash it.

We cling to whatever we can, Deborah, until we are ready to let go...there is no set time to stop grieving.

Thank you all, I'm glad to know this is how other people feel too. I still have Jake's bed stored in the basement, and in March it will be 7 years since he left me. I also couldn't part with his collar and leashes, and couldn't use the leashes with Sunny either...

Joan, I'm so sorry to hear about Lena. Bawling my eyes out. :(

When the receptionist at the vet's office called to tell me about Sunny's ashes, I just cried and cried, so she mentioned there are pet loss support groups. Have any of you attended any? I think it will probably make it worse... Ever since I was little, I have never been able to read a book or watch a movie where a dog gets hurt or dies because I couldn't take it, even if I knew it was fiction. And after losing Jake, and now Sunny, I'm even more sensitive to it, so I would probably lose it every time someone talked about their loss...

Thanks,

Deborah

[dedenorio]

I do use the little green machine from Bissell with the pet deodorizer cleaner stuff. That seems to work.

I haven't washed Molly's sheepskin rug that she slept on either. In fact it was one of the things my husband said "don't wash that!! and I didn't. Course now the cat has been sleeping on it, but we put her bed on top of it and she sleeps on that now. I know I'll have to at some point as our grandson will be on it I'm sure, but just .... not yet.

Hi Sharlene,

Do you use the Bissel formula itself in your green machine? I had one but it stopped working, so I got a similar one that you can put in a spot and it cleans by itself. Sunny hated the noise. :(

I've been wondering if it might be better to use Nature's Miracle in it instead of the Bissel solution...

Thanks!

Deborah

[labblab]

Awww Deborah, it's no wonder you cried when the vet's office called you. Being told that Sunny's ashes are back and ready to come home, well that is really an emotional moment. I think it's thoughtful that the receptionist mentioned pet loss support groups, though, because they really can be a help to many people, especially if they don't have others in their lives who understand what a true and genuine loss a pet's death can be. In our own way, I hope we are a support group here. But it's possible that being able to talk in person, and get real hugs in person, might also be an added comfort. You're right that undoubtedly tears would be shed, but tears can also be healing at times. There is nothing about your grief that seems at all unusual or surprising to me, so in no way am I saying that I think you need to join a group. But for some folks, the shared experience of the interpersonal contact can offer an added measure of comfort. I am a "talker" myself, and do draw support from in-person connections. If you check out this thread on our memorial forum, some of the links supply support group locators. They also offer additional online forums and chat rooms, as well as tips about other comforting aids such as keeping a personal journal.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171

Regardless of what you decide about another group, we're not going anywhere and we will remain right by your side! So you already have one big support group in your life. ;)

As far as the rescue lady, many of us have been dumb-founded by how hard some rescue groups can make things for good-hearted people who want to adopt! It is totally weird to me how many barriers are sometimes thrown up. I guess that what with all the horrendous cruelty that they've seen, sometimes rescuers just get callous and overly suspicious of even good-intentioned people. But hang in there! I have every hope and belief that you will be linked up with the furbaby that is meant to be your next beloved companion. It may take some time, but it will happen.

[Squirt's Mom]

My Squirt spend most of her last year in my closet and it was a full year+ before I could bring myself to vacuum and mop that floor - I just couldn't take any remaining part of her away. 1000 times I stood in the doorway, vacuum in hand, but just couldn't do it and ended up on the floor sobbing instead. It's been over 2 years since she moved on and I still hear her nails clicking on that floor at times....and today that is a huge comfort, it is proof to me she is still with me.

I have a Hoover Pet machine that does a pretty good job of shampooing the carpets. I use either the Hoover pet shampoo or the one by PetFresh which works in that machine. It is a losing battle in my house tho - I work with special needs dogs and ALL of them have or do pee on the floor daily. I keep the Nature's Miracle company going, I'm sure. :D There is also a basket of old towels used only for pee sopping. When we have an accident, I sop up the pee really good, soak the carpet in NM, then sop that up really good. I keep telling myself one of these days I am taking all the carpets out of my house... but then I can just see my old bones sliding and slipping my way thru the house as I hit unseen pee spots! :p:D

Hang in there. Grieving is a process and we all go thru it in our own ways. There are no rules, no time limits. There is a quote from Washington Irving I adore -

“There is a sacredness in tears. They are not a mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition and of unspeakable love.”

Our tears honor the abiding love we shared with our babies. So let them fall when they will. And know you are not alone.

Hugs
Leslie and the gang

[Joan2517]

I love that, Leslie....so true.

[molly muffin]

I use the Bissel formula. It is a lot about squirt the formula, suck it up, squirt full saturation, suck it in multiple directions till no water/formula showing coming out, Done.

:)

[dedenorio]

Awww Deborah, it's no wonder you cried when the vet's office called you. Being told that Sunny's ashes are back and ready to come home, well that is really an emotional moment. I think it's thoughtful that the receptionist mentioned pet loss support groups, though, because they really can be a help to many people, especially if they don't have others in their lives who understand what a true and genuine loss a pet's death can be. In our own way, I hope we are a support group here. But it's possible that being able to talk in person, and get real hugs in person, might also be an added comfort. You're right that undoubtedly tears would be shed, but tears can also be healing at times. There is nothing about your grief that seems at all unusual or surprising to me, so in no way am I saying that I think you need to join a group. But for some folks, the shared experience of the interpersonal contact can offer an added measure of comfort. I am a "talker" myself, and do draw support from in-person connections. If you check out this thread on our memorial forum, some of the links supply support group locators. They also offer additional online forums and chat rooms, as well as tips about other comforting aids such as keeping a personal journal.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171

Regardless of what you decide about another group, we're not going anywhere and we will remain right by your side! So you already have one big support group in your life. ;)

As far as the rescue lady, many of us have been dumb-founded by how hard some rescue groups can make things for good-hearted people who want to adopt! It is totally weird to me how many barriers are sometimes thrown up. I guess that what with all the horrendous cruelty that they've seen, sometimes rescuers just get callous and overly suspicious of even good-intentioned people. But hang in there! I have every hope and belief that you will be linked up with the furbaby that is meant to be your next beloved companion. It may take some time, but it will happen.

Thank you, Marianne. You guys have been incredible. I am touched and humbled by all the attention and tenderness you guys have provided me. May it come back to all of you ten-fold.

Sorry I have been away. I have spent a lot of time looking for dogs, applying to different rescue groups, and making a bit of a mess about the whole process. Even though it has been good, in that it has kept my mind occupied, it has also been incredibly stressful. And when I did stop, I started thinking about how much I missed Sunny and Jake, and also started to feel guilty for trying to bring a new dog into my home so soon after losing Sunny.

The past 2 days, as I got home from work, I was about to call Sunny in the sing-songy voice I used with him, and then I remembered he was no longer here. It really sucked, for lack of a better word. :( I still feel him here...

We were approved by a husky rescue group in the Midwest, so my brother and I will be driving there next week. It will be a minimum 8-hour drive each way. The application process was so complicated it felt like applying to college or something. There are at least a couple of people ahead of us in terms of the dogs we liked from the videos on the website, so we have no idea which dog will still be there when we arrive. The whole process is a bit surreal, and very draining emotionally.

I guess we have about a week to dog-proof the house -- neither Sunny nor Jake ever destroyed anything, or tried to swallow anything that wasn't food, so they really spoiled us. We also need to remove as much of the urine smell so the new dog doesn't think the carpet is an ok place to go peepee. And I still feel ambivalent about that. Part of me really doesn't want to remove the stains/smell because they make me think of Sunny. :(

If anyone has experience in going for long road trips with dogs, especially rescues, and would have some tips to make it more comfortable/less stressful for the pup, would you mind sending me a PM?

I hope you all don't mind if I continue to post here... It really helps.

Thanks,

Deborah

[labblab]

Oh Deborah, of course you can keep posting here! You need to know that many of us have lost our own Cushpups -- some of us many years ago -- and yet there's no way we'd consider leaving our family here, either.

I'm hoping so much you'll have good fortune visiting the rescue, and that you'll return home with your new baby! I'll be keeping all fingers crossed. I'm hoping other folks will have some suggestions about the car ride. We have just been lucky in that all our dogs have liked riding, so it hasn't been an issue. Oh, one thing I do think of...I don't know what kind of vehicle you have, or if you can accommodate a crate, or if the dog will even be crate-trained yet. But if not and if you just have a sedan, you might look into getting a "dog hammock" that you can place over the rear part of the seating compartment, on top of some boxes in the rear footwell. This is an example of what I mean. We've used a hammock for long car trips with our girls when a crate has not been an option.

https://www.chewy.com/b/dog-288?query=seat+covers&gclid=CPa2qL6f4tECFdGFswodTrENUg&gclsrc=aw.ds

None of these photos show boxes in the foot wells, but with a big heavy dog, we felt as though too much weight was being put on our hammock without any support under the front part. But we just got some cardboard boxes that fit perfectly in the footwell under the front part of the hammock, and that privided a stable platform extending forward from the seat itself. As I say, just a thought in case you have a sedan.

No matter what, please keep us updated!
Marianne

[dedenorio]

Oh Deborah, of course you can keep posting here! You need to know that many of us have lost our own Cushpups -- some of us many years ago -- and yet there's no way we'd consider leaving our family here, either.

I'm hoping so much you'll have good fortune visiting the rescue, and that you'll return home with your new baby! I'll be keeping all fingers crossed. I'm hoping other folks will have some suggestions about the car ride. We have just been lucky in that all our dogs have liked riding, so it hasn't been an issue. Oh, one thing I do think of...I don't know what kind of vehicle you have, or if you can accommodate a crate, or if the dog will even be crate-trained yet. But if not and if you just have a sedan, you might look into getting a "dog hammock" that you can place over the rear part of the seating compartment, on top of some boxes in the rear footwell. This is an example of what I mean. We've used a hammock for long car trips with our girls when a crate has not been an option.

https://www.chewy.com/b/dog-288?query=seat+covers&gclid=CPa2qL6f4tECFdGFswodTrENUg&gclsrc=aw.ds

None of these photos show boxes in the foot wells, but with a big heavy dog, we felt as though too much weight was being put on our hammock without any support under the front part. But we just got some cardboard boxes that fit perfectly in the footwell under the front part of the hammock, and that privided a stable platform extending forward from the seat itself. As I say, just a thought in case you have a sedan.

No matter what, please keep us updated!
Marianne


Ah... You mean using the hammock if the dog is traveling by himself in the back seat? What I had thought of doing was to sit with the dog in the back while my brother drove, wondering if that might be more reassuring to the dog. I have a small SUV, so a crate large enough for a husky won't fit in the back.

I will bring a Kong to fill with treats/kibble to help keep the pup occupied. Hopefully it won't upset his/her tummy.

I just got a booklet by Patricia McConnell on bringing home an adult rescue, so hopefully there will be some suggestions there too.

Thank you...

[labblab]

Yup, if you used a hammock, the dog would be alone in the back seat. However, if you are in the front passenger seat, you can turn around and still touch the dog and offer verbal reassurances. An advantage to the hammock is just that it gives a bigger dog more room to turn around and lay down fully which we've found to be an advantage on long trips. Also, if you have to stop suddenly, it keeps the dog from being thrown off the seat into the footwell. But it may not be worth the investment for just this one trip home.

[Squirt's Mom]

I used to participate in rescue transport trains - people along a route who would transport a dog a certain distance then pass it on to the person who had the next leg of the journey. More dogs were lost when they jumped out of a vehicle along the way because they were not secured in a crate. Based on my experience with the trains, I would never, ever allow a dog large enough to jump out who was unfamiliar with me or my vehicle to be out of a crate while on the road. That baby would be in a harness as well so that I could immediately have something to hold that was difficult for it to get out of when we stopped for potty breaks, over-nite stays, and so on. They would remain in the crate until the lead was attached, then get them out and down. Even then it's risky because some babies are houdinis at getting out of harnesses and collars - I have a Pug who fits that bill to a T! :rolleyes::D

Just bear in mind this baby that is lucky enough to come home with you may be terrified and try to escape as a result so take every precaution to protect it 'til ya'll are home, safe and sound. ;)

[molly muffin]

So you go this week to see if you can find your next pup? Have a safe trip. Don't want to get caught in any dicey weather.
Let us know how it goes! We'll all be anxiously awaiting news.

[labblab]

Hi again, Deborah. Just thinking about you guys this morning and wondering how things have been going this week. Have you been able to make your trip? If so, I'm hoping so much that things went well! We'll be anxious for an update whenever you may have the chance to write again.

Sending warm wishes to you,
Marianne

[dedenorio]

Hi again, Deborah. Just thinking about you guys this morning and wondering how things have been going this week. Have you been able to make your trip? If so, I'm hoping so much that things went well! We'll be anxious for an update whenever you may have the chance to write again.

Sending warm wishes to you,
Marianne

Thanks, Marianne! We did make the trip, and we adopted Foos. He is a husky/malamute mix, and he may have a dash of border collie in there too. He's probably around 2 years old. He's a very sweet dog, but is like the energizer bunny on steroids. Quite a contrast to Sunny, who had mellowed out quite a bit in the last few years. Foos also pulls on leash like a runaway train, so until we get some training I'm having him wear a head collar.

It has been bittersweet having him here. I love having a pup again, but in a way he makes me miss Sunny more. My brother wanted to give him back before we left the kennel parking lot, and when we got back he was really depressed, also feeling like Foos made him miss Sunny even more. I guess that's normal -- when we adopted Sunny, I felt like he made me miss Jake even more too. :(

When we were at the kennel I saw the volunteers walking two huskies I hadn't seen on the rescue website so I asked who they were. They had just been surrendered together by their humans, they were 9 and 12 years old and the people claimed they were "moving" and couldn't take the dogs. Granted, there is always the chance that there was some truth to it and all, but it really looked like the reason was that the dogs were old and those people didn't want to care for them anymore. I was furious. I also felt really frustrated -- I kept on thinking about what I wouldn't give to have Sunny back, while those jerks were leaving their dogs behind... :(

I should probably change Foos' name to Jaws -- in less than half a day he managed to destroy over half the toys that had belonged to both Sunny and Jake... He also managed to eat and throw up a couple of leather suitcase tags...

I took him to my vet on Monday, and everybody at the clinic loved him. He did test positive for giardia, though. :( He also seems to have a very sensitive tummy -- he threw up twice last night.

Yesterday I took him to the same training class I had taken Sunny to 7 years ago, when the trainer had just opened his training school, and it was in the same church basement. That was tough too. :( I actually found Sunny's graduation picture from that class and sent it to the instructor, who was very excited because that had been his first graduating class and I guess he didn't have the pictures anymore.

One problem we are having though -- he jumps up and humps like crazy. He is starting to mouth us too. And he just tore a piece out of my coat sleeve when we were out in the backyard. :mad:

He also pees very little. I don't know if my perception of normal peeing is off because of Sunny having had Cushing's or what...

Have any of you had really powerful chewers? If so, have you found any toys they didn't manage to destroy?

Anyway, it's only been a week, so we are still getting used to each other. And it's really nice to be able to scratch a pup's tummy and caress silky ears again...

Deborah

[Whiskey's Mom]

congrats on the new pup-sounds like a beautiful boy and quite a handful.:D
About the powerful chewer- Whiskey was the champ! The ONLY toys he was allowed to have were the hardest Nylabones and the red or black Kong toys. He would destroy anything else within seconds. We used to fill the Kong with peanut butter and freeze it to keep him occupied as a puppy. He was a real handful too!
Happy you have a furry tummy to rub again!
Annie

[Harley PoMMom]

Congrats on the new addition to your family!!! He does sound like a handful as Annie said! Maybe deer antlers can help with the chewing? I never used them myself so this is just a thought I threw out there.

Hugs, Lori

[dedenorio]

congrats on the new pup-sounds like a beautiful boy and quite a handful.:D
About the powerful chewer- Whiskey was the champ! The ONLY toys he was allowed to have were the hardest Nylabones and the red or black Kong toys. He would destroy anything else within seconds. We used to fill the Kong with peanut butter and freeze it to keep him occupied as a puppy. He was a real handful too!
Happy you have a furry tummy to rub again!
Annie

Thanks, Annie! Did you fill the whole Kong with peanut butter? The Kong treat toys he has no interest in chewing for some reason. :(

Are Nylabones the same as rawhide? I will take a look at it.

He seems to love squeaky toys, but since I'm not made of money, I can't just keep on buying them so Foos can destroy them... :p

Thanks!

Deborah

[dedenorio]

Congrats on the new addition to your family!!! He does sound like a handful as Annie said! Maybe deer antlers can help with the chewing? I never used them myself so this is just a thought I threw out there.

Hugs, Lori

Thank you, Lori! My brother wanted to try the antlers, but I asked my vet and she thought it was a bit risky -- that he might manage to break off a large piece and swallow it... :(

Thanks!

Deborah

[Whiskey's Mom]

We used the Kong classic which kind of looks like 3 balls attached to each other with a hollow center that we filled with peanut butter. We also had Kong balls, because he would destroy anything else. Nylabone is a brand and they make different shapes and textures depending on the strength of the chewer. They last a long time and they're safe. He still chews on them sometimes. I never used rawhide or antlers, they scare me. :eek:

[WeLoveAthena]

I'm seeing this late. So sorry to hear about Sunny :-(. We lost our oldest girl ( not Athena who we write about) who was a staffy. It's been hard. We lost her in November but it's true and we believe when we were told it takes a lot of courage to let a pet go when it's their time and not drag out their life when there is no quality. We were with her till the end and have peace although we miss her so much every single day she is always with us.

[DoxieMama]

My Jackson is quite the chewer and smart - he can get the squeaker out of those toys in 0.001 seconds sometimes! He's not quite as destructive as he was when he was young, but still enjoys the Nylabone and peanut butter Kong, just like Whiskey. I haven't frozen the Kong though... might have to try that this week! Jackson also has a couple antlers - one whole and one that's cut in half lengthwise. He enjoys scraping the middle out of that one. :)

[molly muffin]

Congratulations on welcoming Foos to your family. I'm sure he will fit right in eventually, it's an adjustment period for all of you.
My guess if you are going to be very busy for awhile until you get through that adjustment period. Foos is like a big baby, still finding his way in a new home. Hopefully it just will take some time and you'll all settle into a new routine.

I'm sure it makes you miss Sunny and Jake even more. It's the nature of our hearts, we have to give it a bump and say remember, sunny and jake led the way and now we have room to love another.

[Joan2517]

We rescued Andee when she was just 8 weeks old back in 1996 or 97. She chewed everything...from my husband's Oriental rug to the rungs of whatever chair she was under at the time. She even chewed through wooden gates that blocked off the living room. I thought she was the worst dog we had ever owned.

Well, she finally grew out of the chewing and turned out to be one of the best. She welcomed every new dog or cat we brought in without a problem and taught them how to behave. When my grandson was born, she took it upon herself to be his guardian and stayed next to him whenever he was at our house.

When we took in my big boy, Gable in 2010, she straightened him right out about how things ran in our house. She was a wonderful girl. She passed away in September of 2011 of a mass in her spleen...I still miss her.

Foos just may need time to adjust.

[dedenorio]

Hello everyone,

Sorry it has taken me so long to post. Work has been extremely stressful this year and Foos, my new dog, has been very difficult.

Foos turned out to have some very bad behaviours that I wasn't told about by the rescue.

He likes to hump and mouth, but he bites hard and leaves me with bruises. He has gotten better about doing this in the house, but when I take him for walks, if he gets frustrated because I don't let him chase after some dog/squirrel/cat/anything that he wants to go after, he will jump on me and bite my arm. He has gone for my face a few times. :( He doesn't do that to my brother though. He seems to respect men more.

I called an animal behaviourist to come evaluate him -- she said that even though she didn't see aggression in him, he was never taught bite inhibition as a puppy and has zero impulse control. She said it was imperative that he wear a basket muzzle when I take him for walks. I have had a hard time putting the muzzle on him and my brother refuses to help, since Foos doesn't jump/bite him when they walk.

Foos sometimes will pee a river during the night on the carpet, even if it's just a few hours after having gone for a pee break. So naturally, when I saw that, my mind went straight to "omg, could he have Cushings??". It only happens occasionally though. And since he always goes in the exact same spot, we put puppy pads down on that spot. My brother was still using the same Nature's Miracle Urine Destroyer formula to clean the carpet that we used with Sunny, so I had to buy a different product since I will forever associate that smell with Sunny getting Cushings. :( Oh, I really miss him... :(

Recently someone posted on my FB husky lovers group that their 13-yr old husky had just been diagnosed with Cushings, so I sent him a message suggesting he check out the site. Hopefully he will.

Anyway, that is the update. I have considered quite a few times returning Foos to the rescue, but it would break my heart to do so. I love the dog, despite the biting, humping, trying to take toys/food forcefully from my hand. My brother would also miss him terribly -- Foos is great company for him since he works from home and is a loner.

Deborah (and crazy Foos)

[molly muffin]

oh my goodness, Foos does sound like a handful, but most of this seems to be behavioral from not having been trained as a youngster. All you can really do is keep at it. Use a muzzle for now, as needed, you sure don't need any bruises and bites, and do so with a this is what we are going to be doing now Foos attitude.
I'm sure that Foos is a adorable and a work in progress. He really does just need to understand that you are the alpha in the relationship.

Let us know how it goes!!

[dedenorio]

I think that's a huge part of the problem -- he doesn't see me as alpha, at least not while we are out walking. :( When I adopted Sunny he was a little bit like that -- very compliant in the house, but when out on a leash he would get too big for his britches. In the 7 years I had him he never put his mouth on me though. :(

I tried to put the muzzle on him tonight at home while giving him treats but he pulled it right off. He is usually pretty hyper, and gets even more hyper when there are treats involved. Or a ball. I took the ball away, he started chewing the cable tv cable along the wall... So I gave him a couple of Kongs with treats and he calmed down a bit. Oof.

Thanks!

[molly muffin]

Think of it as starting back at the beginning of puppy training. Foos sounds like a big puppy that just hasn't learned his manners yet.

My husband would always tell Molly, Me Alpha, you Not. Like that was going to solve everything! LOL