New member & questions/confusion, relieved for this support group too!

[deedz]

I was referred to this group by Cathy Brown on the diabetespet group.
Hi to everyone, here's the story.....
My 13 or so yr old rescue min-pin/chi mix dog started having increased thirst and urination, a pot bellied look, no hair loss or leg weakness and then an episode one night of walking into walls and confusion. I took him to the vet and asked him to also check him for Cushings. We did an ACTH test, and a week later the vet said he had sent the sample to 3 labs, his inhouse IDEX, a send out to IDEX and another lab as he had just started using them and he wanted to compare for quality. The vet said all 3 were within normal range but 1 was 22 post ACTH, on the lab value border. He felt Tobey had doggie dementia starting. We discussed supplements and diets and put him on "Bright Minds" dry food. A few nights later Tobey had a mini type seizure, all this was within a matter of a few weeks. We rushed him to the 24 vet clinic an hour away, more blood panels and a UA with a C&S, and a BP check of 190. I asked if the evt thought Cushings, after describing his recent symptoms, she was a new vet, but thought yes, but didn't want to do another ACTH until we could be sure he was okay and deal with the seizure etc. Oh, forgot to say the alk phos was above 993 at both vets, but other liver enzymes weren't bad. The vet able to do an abdominal ultrasound was oot so I had to schedule an appt. Meanwhile I found out that 1 of the vets from this er clinic, also a friend og my kids had bought a practice in our town, so I made an appt. the next day. He was also oot, but another vet from the er clinic was covering so saw Tobey and was able to see the records from the er clinis and labs. She ordered a urine protein ratio and the creat urine ratio tests as send outs because the urine done at the er clinic showed protein in his urine. She felt it still could be Cushings but said to start with the ultrasound 1st, which we had set up. Meanwhile Tobey had another mini seizure after getting excited over food one night. I stopped the Bright Minds food and started him on cooked veggies, brown rice and turkey/chicken etc. He still drank water and urinated loads, but...... then he started urinating in the house too! The week of the hurricane, day before it really affected us some here in FL, the vet did the US of the abdomen and said the adrenal weren't all that abnormal, one was a little larger than the other, possible nodule, he wasn't for sure, and a bit of an enlarged liver. In light of the US he wanted to send a blood sample test to the University of Tennessee for an adrenal panel to see if any of those were elevated, he said there are 6 hormones they test for. A week and a half later, he called me on Thursday night, left a message that he had the results and diagnosis and to call to discuss the next day, as he was on his way oot. I called Friday, 2 days ago and he told me Tobey had Cushings and he'd like to start him on Vetoryl, and that his adrenal panel showed all but the testosterone was elevated and his Cortisol was 31, post-acth. He said we'd discuss it further when he was back in the office on Monday.
I started researching and trying to find more info about the adrenal panel, cushings, stypical etc. I realized he hadn't told me what kind of cushings Tobey had, and called him back to ask and talk over a few findings I had read during my search. I asked him did he say Tobey had Cushings or Atypical, and he responded, he has both, then I asked him if it was being caused from the pituitary or the adrenals and he said a bit of both probably, but without an MRI of the head to search for a possible tumor there, he didn't know, but it wouldn't really matter. I asked about any specific diet to put him on, he said just a good one, told him what I was feeding and he said that was good. Said Cushing's has no cure, meds and labs are lifelong treatments. I told him I was concerned about the Vetoryl as I had found information on the University of Tennessee website saying if the adrenal hormones were elevated that Vetoryl would also increase them and that with elevated adrenal hormones it's better to start with Melatonin and Lignans, also told him I found similar info on other sites I had researched. He agreed and said well yes we can try that for 2 weeks instead and repeat the acth cortisol part only, in 2 weeks to see if the cortisol level had decreased well. Seems Melatonin/Lignans decrease the other hormones as well as cortisol from what all I read.

My confusion now is, (wasn't confused after tt the vet because I assumed a dog with both was normal), until I started searching and I haven't found any info to help..... if Tobey has both Cushings and Atypical, what's the treatment for both???
Why can't I find any info on other dog's who have both and or treatments for one having both?? Is there such a thing as a dog having both? Has anybody here had this situation? I want to use the correct treatment, but am unsure what that is. Didn't want to call the vet back again, so figured I would ask for help/input here amongst veterans of this disease, and the ins/outs!
Btw, Tobey is 12.4 pds, I started the Melatonin 3mg bid on Friday night, and ordered the HMR Lignans, to be delivered tomorrow, will start those then. Thanks for hearing me out on this and sorry I was so long.

[DoxieMama]

Welcome to you and Tobey, though I am sorry for the reasons you have joined us. No need to apologize for the lengthy post...the more information you provide the better we can help. Unfortunately, I do not have experience to offer at this time. Does Tobey have any other conditions for which he is taking medication?

[labblab]

Hello and welcome from me, too. As Shana has said, thanks so much for all the information. There are a lot of things to think over and discuss, but I will start off with some brief initial comments.

First and foremost, since Tobey's cortisol is elevated above normal range, she would be labeled with conventional Cushing's as opposed to Atypical Cushing's. The label of Atypical Cushing's is usually reserved for dogs who only exhibit elevations in adrenal hormones other than cortisol.

From adrenal testing that's been done in recent years, it seems likely that virtually all dogs with elevated cortisol will also have elevations in at least some other adrenal hormones as well. We know only too well that elevated cortisol causes symptoms and damage. The million dollar question is how to predict whether (or even if) those other adrenal elevations will create problems for a dog, too. There is a lot that is still unknown about the effects that may be associated with other adrenal elevations.

For the majority of dogs who suffer from elevated cortisol, though, treatment with Vetoryl alone remedies the symptoms, regardless of whether or not other hormones may also have been elevated. For this reason, most clinicians don't worry about testing the other adrenal hormones as long as a dog with elevated cortisol is responding well to Vetoryl (or Lysodren, the other standard treatment).

Melatonin and lignans are recommended by UTK for treatment of Atypical Cushing's, but even though they may also promote a mild reduction in cortisol, that treatment is typically not enough to control the excessive cortisol production associated with conventional Cushing's. And even when used to treat other adrenal hormone elevations, it typically takes several months for observable results.

My personal opinion is that you will not be able to gain control of Tobey's elevated cortisol unless you opt for either Vetoryl or Lysodren. Also, I fear you will be throwing your money away if you perform another ACTH test after two weeks of melatonin/lignans treatment because I would not anticipate any significant change in cortisol level from that treatment alone, certainly not within that short a time.

So this is a starting place for our discussion. Once again, welcome, and I look forward to talking with you more.

Marianne

[deedz]

Welcome to you and Tobey, though I am sorry for the reasons you have joined us. No need to apologize for the lengthy post...the more information you provide the better we can help. Unfortunately, I do not have experience to offer at this time. Does Tobey have any other conditions for which he is taking medication?
Thank you for the welcome Shana! Thankfully no other meds. I do give him the same supplements I give my diabetic dog, Neo. Multi-Essentials, Mellit, Turmeric, Milk Thistle, Omega. I started him on the Melatonin 3 mg bid, Friday, and just received the HMR Lingnans to start with this evening's meal. Tobey and Neo both have had a few bouts of Pancreatitis in their history, and Tobey had some type of respiratory allergy a few years back. We had him neutered upon rescue in 2006 and they felt he was between 3-5 yrs of age then, so I say he's about 13. Thanks again for the welcome, and it's nice to virtually meet you! :)

[deedz]

Hello and welcome from me, too. As Shana has said, thanks so much for all the information. There are a lot of things to think over and discuss, but I will start off with some brief initial comments.

First and foremost, since Tobey's cortisol is elevated above normal range, she would be labeled with conventional Cushing's as opposed to Atypical Cushing's. The label of Atypical Cushing's is usually reserved for dogs who exhibit elevations in adrenal hormones other than cortisol.

From adrenal testing that's been done in recent years, it seems likely that virtually all dogs with elevated cortisol will also have elevations in at least some other adrenal hormones as well. We know only too well that elevated cortisol causes symptoms and damage. The million dollar question is how to predict whether (or even if) those other adrenal elevations will create problems for a dog, too. There is a lot that is still unknown about the effects that may be associated with other adrenal elevations.

For the majority of dogs who suffer from elevated cortisol, though, treatment with Vetoryl alone remedies the symptoms, regardless of whether or not other hormones may also have been elevated. For this reason, most clinicians don't worry about testing the other adrenal hormones as long as a dog with elevated cortisol is responding well to Vetoryl (or Lysodren, the other standard treatment).

Melatonin and lignans are recommended by UTK for treatment of Atypical Cushing's, but even though they may also promote a mild reduction in cortisol, that treatment is typically not enough to control the excessive cortisol production associated with conventional Cushing's. And even when used to treat other adrenal hormone elevations, it typically takes several months for observable results.

My personal opinion is that you will not be able to gain control of Tobey's elevated cortisol unless you opt for either Vetoryl or Lysodren. Also, I fear you will be throwing your money away if you perform another ACTH test after two weeks of melatonin/lignans treatment because I would not anticipate any significant change in cortisol level from that treatment alone, certainly not within that short a time.

So this is a starting place for our discussion. Once again, welcome, and I look forward to talking with you more.

Marianne
Hi Marianne, thank you for your valuable input. I am waiting on a call back from the vet to try to clarify Tobey's case.
Have you heard of other cases where the cortisols were normal as in the 3 prior different labs results done by the 1st vet's office.....and then the lab sent to Tennessee was elevated, all within a 3 week or so time frame also?

Sorry for the delay in sending this response. The vet's nurse called back and will be sending me the lab results as well as the vet's clinical notes tomorrow, which she said should also have the US notes of his findings on the size etc. of Tobey's adrenals. After I have notes and results to look at we can be on the same page when we discuss Tobey's results, options etc. Is Vetoryl the best med of all options, or is it equal to the other ones?

Thank you again, I feel such a relief being here, and having experienced people here to confer with about Tobey....we both thank you!

[labblab]

That will be great to get all the specific test results and clinical notes. In the meantime, yes, it does seem a bit surprising to see such a big difference in the two ACTH tests taken just three weeks apart. But a post-ACTH of 31 ug/dL is definitely elevated on the UTK panel, because I below their "normal" cut-off is down around 17 ug/dL. One explanatory note to you in advance: in the past, UTK has used reporting units different from those used by IDEXX, so don't be surprised if the numbers have to be converted in order to make them comparable to one another. I apologize if I am making this very confusing, but I think you'll see what I mean when you get the test copies.

As far as what medication is best, both Lysodren and Vetoryl are very effective in lowering cortisol. Vetoryl is now used more widely throughout the world, with the thought being that for many dogs, any unwanted side effects are more quickly and easily reversible. However, both are powerful drugs that must be monitored carefully. Given the fact that your dog is now known to have elevations in other adrenal hormones as well, UTK might themselves be more inclined to recommend Lysodren since it tends to decrease other hormonal elevations whereas Vetoryl does the opposite. However, as I wrote earlier, not all clinicians agree with UTK's concern in that regard. Research has yet to confirm exactly how worrisome those other adrenal elevations may be for most dogs. So my personal advice is to see with which of the two medications your vet has had the most experience, and I'd probably start from there.

Marianne

[rainiebo]

Hello and welcome too. I'm not really good at the specifics, but just wanted to let you know that you are in the right place. Encouragement, knowledge and true furry friend lovers. Best of luck with your pup.

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome from me too.
I believe they say 4 months at least to see results on melatonin and lignans. Depending on what is gong on with the cortisol, (3 labs normal, 1 not) and if it is truly elevated as to whether it would be helpful or not. If the cortisol is elevated, then I would add in something (I used trilostane/vetroyl so that is my experience but we've seen dogs have success with both treatments) and then retest the acth after starting the medication rather than just a couple weeks in on meletonin and lignans. If you don't think the cortisol is truly elevated, then I'd do the lignans and melatonin. I don't think a couple weeks will be enough based on what U of Tenn says. (the 4 month statement)

I think if it were me, I'd ask about the normal test vs the high acth test, and if anything else could cause that to happen, a response to the seizures for instance.
Are they planning to treat the seizures with like pheno or anything or what do they think is causing those.
I'd ask about long term treatment plans and short term. In particular about the neurological symptom of walking into walls, etc.
Could there be another cause for this other than cushings.
How are kidneys doing? How is thyroid? how about liver? Was he checked for a UTI? by culture. what is the specific gravity of the urine is it dilute or concentrated.

There are a lot of questions to be answered I think even before going with a specific cushings med.

[deedz]

That will be great to get all the specific test results and clinical notes. In the meantime, yes, it does seem a bit surprising to see such a big difference in the two ACTH tests taken just three weeks apart. But a post-ACTH of 31 ug/dL is definitely elevated on the UTK panel, because I below their "normal" cut-off is down around 17 ug/dL. One explanatory note to you in advance: in the past, UTK has used reporting units different from those used by IDEXX, so don't be surprised if the numbers have to be converted in order to make them comparable to one another. I apologize if I am making this very confusing, but I think you'll see what I mean when you get the test copies.

As far as what medication is best, both Lysodren and Vetoryl are very effective in lowering cortisol. Vetoryl is now used more widely throughout the world, with the thought being that for many dogs, any unwanted side effects are more quickly and easily reversible. However, both are powerful drugs that must be monitored carefully. Given the fact that your dog is now known to have elevations in other adrenal hormones as well, UTK might themselves be more inclined to recommend Lysodren since it tends to decrease other hormonal elevations whereas Vetoryl does the opposite. However, as I wrote earlier, not all clinicians agree with UTK's concern in that regard. Research has yet to confirm exactly how worrisome those other adrenal elevations may be for most dogs. So my personal advice is to see with which of the two medications your vet has had the most experience, and I'd probably start from there.

Marianne


Thank you for the insightful information! The vet called an said he had discussed Tobey's case with a vet at UTK. They concurred, both his adrenal hormones and Cortisol were elevated and he fits both being Atypical and Cushing's, which is not common. They aren't sure if the cause is from the pituitary or adrenals, or a bit of both. Treatment wise, the UTK vet said, as you also mentioned, that it would probably be best to do Lysodren since the Vetoryl does seem to elevate the adrenal hormones. They both agreed there is no 1 approach in such cases and that starting with the Melatonin and the Lignans and re-testing in about a month would be okay. I also started Tobey on the Enalapril 9 days ago and am taking him to the vet today to check his bp again. Apparently the Cushing's can cause high blood pressure, and he thinks that is what Tobey's is caused from. The vet unfortunately is and hr and a half away. Sadly our local vets do not have the equipment to check blood pressures but he said that more vets are realizing the importance of checking bp's in general since that factor is missed often until a secondary medical issue is already underway.

Is there a special diet you follow and feed for your Cushing's/& Atypical Cushing's pets? I have been researching Stella & Chewy's and Primal freeze dried and such meals. But, I wanted to ask your and other members input first. Are there also any supplements I should be using?

I read where these dogs should have low fiber/low carb/high protein foods.

Thank you and all for your valuable advice. I trust it more than vets, sad but true.
Our local vet is not versed in dogs with other than normal issues, and in our area the same is said for the other vets here.

[deedz]

Hello and welcome too. I'm not really good at the specifics, but just wanted to let you know that you are in the right place. Encouragement, knowledge and true furry friend lovers. Best of luck with your pup.

Appreciate it, Raina, it is comforting to know where to come to for help and the experience of others, in the know!

[deedz]

Hello and welcome from me too.
I believe they say 4 months at least to see results on melatonin and lignans. Depending on what is gong on with the cortisol, (3 labs normal, 1 not) and if it is truly elevated as to whether it would be helpful or not. If the cortisol is elevated, then I would add in something (I used trilostane/vetroyl so that is my experience but we've seen dogs have success with both treatments) and then retest the acth after starting the medication rather than just a couple weeks in on meletonin and lignans. If you don't think the cortisol is truly elevated, then I'd do the lignans and melatonin. I don't think a couple weeks will be enough based on what U of Tenn says. (the 4 month statement)

I think if it were me, I'd ask about the normal test vs the high acth test, and if anything else could cause that to happen, a response to the seizures for instance.
Are they planning to treat the seizures with like pheno or anything or what do they think is causing those.
I'd ask about long term treatment plans and short term. In particular about the neurological symptom of walking into walls, etc.
Could there be another cause for this other than cushings.
How are kidneys doing? How is thyroid? how about liver? Was he checked for a UTI? by culture. what is the specific gravity of the urine is it dilute or concentrated.

There are a lot of questions to be answered I think even before going with a specific cushings med.

Hi Sharlene and thank you for the probing questions! You asked: "I think if it were me, I'd ask about the normal test vs the high acth test, and if anything else could cause that to happen, a response to the seizures for instance."

I did ask the vet and he said the cortisol levels fluctuate throughout the day and to stress and so the results will too. Obviously that didn't make me feel better. Knowing that every dog is usually stressed when at the vet plus the waiting time and the fact they had already also done the abdominal US....I'm SURE, Tobey was stressed out by the time they did the ACTH blood test. I don't know how they ever can get a true cortisol result.?

Thankfully Tobey hasn't had anymore seizures, since taking him off the Bright Mind's and Merrick Backcountry freeze dried dry food he was on at the time.....imho, I feel they were too high in protein especially if he was already ill with Cushing's symptoms, as he was with excessive drinking and urinating and a pot belly look.

He is recently blind (apparently also a sign of Cushing's and the high BP they found during the testing) and does still bump into the walls/other obstacles, as he maneuvers around. His kidney functions were normal, they had checked him for a UA and C&S, both negative. His thyroid was borderline low. Specific gravity was dilute, and his alk phos/cholesterol were the only liver elevations.

I'm wondering if there are diets and also any supplements used by the members of the group here.

I appreciate how your "detective" type mind works, Sharlene, many of us forget to look outside the box, as they say.

[deedz]

Is there a special diet you all follow and feed for your Cushing's/& Atypical Cushing's pets? I have been researching Stella & Chewy's and Primal freeze dried and such meals. But, I wanted to ask your and other members input first. Are there also any supplements I should be using?

Thank you,
Debbie and Tobey, recently diagnosed w/both Atypical and Cushing's

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie, I have merged your latest post with your original thread so as to keep all of Tobey's history in one place. ;)

I'm no dog food expert but I do believe that choosing the right food for our dogs is a personal thing and it should be based on our own research as well as the health challenges our dogs may present. :)

Having said that, since cushdogs do lose muscle mass I would feed a diet with a moderate amount of good quality protein.

I have used Primal and think it is a really good dog food, I feed my cat Fromm.

Hugs, Lori

[rainiebo]

Hi Debby, I have the same opinion that Lori does and would add that each cushdog has their own history prior to cushings. I did some online searching and came up with one article suggesting no organ meats, high protein, low-fat, low-carb. I settled on Holistic Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe - it's not bleached - so it has a lot of the nutrients that the cow ate still available. The breakdown is crude protein 9.5%, Crude Fat 3.0 and crude fiber 1.5. I've always fed Bobo canned dog food - he won't eat kibble. I also mix in Wellness Core grain-free Turkey, Chicken Liver and Turkey Liver Formula - Breakdown Crude Protein 12.0, crude fat 8.0, crude fiber .5%. I'm still using the Wellness Core because I'm slowly weaning him off it onto the Green Cow because I don't want to risk upset stomach and diarrhea. Using wellness core has too much fat for a dog with pancreatitis, and addressing all the other health issues will probably take some sorting out. If Bobo's diet needs tweaking, - someone please let me know. I have Bobo on Duralactin, Cosequin DS, allergy shot (when needed), sentinel and melatonin. Here again, I'm thinking that a lot of pup owners don't want to use anything like sentinel. Good luck in your search.

[deedz]

Hi Debbie, I have merged your latest post with your original thread so as to keep all of Tobey's history in one place. ;)

I'm no dog food expert but I do believe that choosing the right food for our dogs is a personal thing and it should be based on our own research as well as the health challenges our dogs may present. :)

Having said that, since cushdogs do lose muscle mass I would feed a diet with a moderate amount of good quality protein.

I have used Primal and think it is a really good dog food, I feed my cat Fromm.

Hugs, Lori


Hi Lori, thank you for merging and your reply. I will keep my questions under my 1st post going forward.

I had read low carb/low fat/ and high protein.....but Tobey has had Pancreatitis so high protein won't work.
(I feed 2 feral cats, and both have had urinary crystals so the vet said to feed Hill's Science C/D canned and dry. They've had no further issues since I started it. I tried to find other alternatives, but most on the support sight said they too ended up feeding 1 of the prescription diets.)
I was thinking maybe you all used a diet specific to Cushing's, is there any on the market?

[deedz]

Hi Debby, I have the same opinion that Lori does and would add that each cushdog has their own history prior to cushings. I did some online searching and came up with one article suggesting no organ meats, high protein, low-fat, low-carb. I settled on Holistic Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe - it's not bleached - so it has a lot of the nutrients that the cow ate still available. The breakdown is crude protein 9.5%, Crude Fat 3.0 and crude fiber 1.5. I've always fed Bobo canned dog food - he won't eat kibble. I also mix in Wellness Core grain-free Turkey, Chicken Liver and Turkey Liver Formula - Breakdown Crude Protein 12.0, crude fat 8.0, crude fiber .5%. I'm still using the Wellness Core because I'm slowly weaning him off it onto the Green Cow because I don't want to risk upset stomach and diarrhea. Using wellness core has too much fat for a dog with pancreatitis, and addressing all the other health issues will probably take some sorting out. If Bobo's diet needs tweaking, - someone please let me know. I have Bobo on Duralactin, Cosequin DS, allergy shot (when needed), sentinel and melatonin. Here again, I'm thinking that a lot of pup owners don't want to use anything like sentinel. Good luck in your search.

Thank you too, Raina! Bobo looks adorable! I will look into the brand you mentioned, and have never heard of it before.
I used to feed Tobey and my diabetic dog, Neo, Wellness Core Reduced Fat dry with various topping like pure pumpkin, Quinoa, green beans an small amounts at times of Wellness canned.
Back when Neo was diagnosed that was one of the favored foods ppl on the diabetic group mentioned using due to the nutrient values needed for a diabetic dog. Start of the year Neo wouldn't eat , so we tried various brands as now the thinking of the diabetic group was more to feed the foods the dog will eat, but try to keep the carbs down and the fat, hence we tried the Merrick Backcountry freeze dried. Neo ended up having dental issues, so we transitioned to cooked veggies, brown rice, and ground meats, portioned out for his weight.....and started Tobey on that too as soon as he started having his issues last month. To be honest Tobey would eat, and always has any and everything, Neo is picky!

So, since Tobey has his own diagnoses, I figured I'd see if there is a specific diet fed or recommend by the members?

Also are there any supplements specific to Cushing's that are recommended by you all or that you use?

[deedz]

Hi Debbie, I have merged your latest post with your original thread so as to keep all of Tobey's history in one place. ;)

I'm no dog food expert but I do believe that choosing the right food for our dogs is a personal thing and it should be based on our own research as well as the health challenges our dogs may present. :)

Having said that, since cushdogs do lose muscle mass I would feed a diet with a moderate amount of good quality protein.

I have used Primal and think it is a really good dog food, I feed my cat Fromm.

Hugs, Lori

Lori, I meant to ask, is there a section on the site here, pertaining to diet/s and supplements?

[molly muffin]

I fed Fromms and I also did Tripe at once point, and usually with a prescription diet added in but mine was for kidney, so low protein there and really too much fat in my opinion.
There isn't a cushings diet prescription dog food on the market that I am aware of.
What was said already of moderate to lower fat and good quality protein is probably the best bet, whatever brand or type you end up with.

You would be surprised as to how explosive a subject of diet can be, so no we don't have a specific thread, as many have their own opinions as to types of food to feed. We've seen dogs do well on all manner of food, but the key is always good quality.

Thanks for the "detective" mind comment. I think it becomes essential to try to figure things out from different angles, when dealing with animals who can't speak up and give us the lowdown of how they feel. We pretty much all become cushing detectives when dealing with it long enough. :) :) So, join the group, pull up a comfy chair and put your feet up, a lot of reading, studying lab results, plenty of studies to be read. It's never ending. LOL

[deedz]

Thank you Sharlene. No, I wouldn't see why diets specific to Cushing's dog would be fraught with peril, lol. I always see things as the more heads and input/trial & errors/experienced inputs, are always the better.
An understanding of each person makes up their own mind, most likely too, with trial and errors......as there's no 1 size fits all in this world, on any topic, I know of. I'm still researching foods to feed etc. My diabetic dog is now not wanting to eat the home cooked veggies part of the brown rice/veggies/meat I've been cooking and feeding....but of course! He also seems to be having some GI distress, not sure if it's from the olive oil I sauteed with, but it's something, again. Isn't that the case with all things in life though! Thanks again for your response, oh and agree 100% on your detective comment too! Hugs to you and molly muffin, and have a delicious, relaxing Thanksgiving feast upcoming Thursday!

[molly muffin]

Could be the olive oil, just like some people. Then again it could be anything.

I tried several different diet options. I did end up on a prescription diet food for her, but then I added in something like fromms with it usually or Royal Canine that had a lower fat content.

Eventually we had to add in wet food to get the pills into her as she wasn't good with those. She got spoiled and then didn't want her dry unless there was wet with it.

[deedz]

Tobey needs dental cleaning and possible teeth extraction. Is it safe for Tobey to be anesthetize for the procedure, and also they want him nothing by mouth from midnight but the procedure wouldn't be started till 2 p.m. or later.?

Can those who have gone through this with your dog give me your experiences, dangers, tips please?

[Squirt's Mom]

I have merged your post concerning anesthesia into Tobey's original thread. As Lori stated earlier, we like to keep all info about each pup in one thread. That way it is easier to look back thru the history for both you and the members who may respond. If you have trouble finding your thread, you can search for Tobey's name or the title you chose using the "Search" feature at the top of the page. If it has been awhile since you posted, your thread will more than likely be on one of the pages that has moved off the main screen and can be found by searching using the page numbers at the bottom of the discussion page. You can always contact a Moderator or Admin for assistance as well.

As for surgery - several of us have let our pups undergo surgical procedures after the Cushing's diagnosis with no problems at all. If your vet feels it is safe and your gut says it is ok...then I would go ahead and have the dental. Bad teeth bring their own risks so it is always best to keep them clean if possible. ;) I'm sure others will be along to add their thoughts as well.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[deedz]

Thank you Leslie, that makes me feel much better. I had read something somewhere once, while researching Cushing's, about caution with anesthetics, but naturally couldn't find any info now. I have only been treating him with the Melatonin and Lignans for the Cushing's, and he is on Vasotec for the elevated bp.
I have talked with and made sure the vet's office flagged everything Tobey related, with the fact he is blind, hard of hearing and Cushing...but will be worried until it is over. :(
Appreciate your responding, and thank you.

[Harley PoMMom]

My boy, Harley, had a dental cleaning along with having 3 teeth extracted when his Cushing's was not controlled and he did fine with the anesthesia. I, too, was very concerned about him and the anesthesia but his vet assured me that they would monitor him very closely and if he would show signs of distress that they could bring him out of the anesthesia really fast.

Hugs, Lori

[labblab]

Hello again from me! I think that one of the issues re: anesthesia is that the agents can be hard on the liver and kidneys because it is through those organs that the drugs are processed and excreted from the body. Cushpups may have livers and kidneys that are already somewhat stressed, so you would be hoping to minimize the risks by using sedation for the shortest time possible and by using drugs that are the least hard for the body to metabolize and clear out. Since your vet is well aware of Tobey's issues, I would assume that he/she will take the proper steps to make the anesthetic as safe as possible for him.

As far as the prohibition against eating or drinking after midnight, no, Tobey definitely should not eat any food. However, if you're certain he won't have the procedure done until afternoon, you might ask the vet whether he could have a few sips of water upon first arising early in the morning. Going for fourteen hours or more without any hydration at all does seem extreme to me. As long as he is allowed only a little water no closer than 6-8 hours before the procedure, that might be OK and would keep Tobey more comfortable through the day. I'd double-check with the vet about that.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

Harley's vet said that they would be keeping him well hydrated intravenously with fluids, (before and after surgery.)

[cyncyn]

Everyone is so well-equipped, this support group is awesome:):):)

[judymaggie]

Hi--my Cush pup, Abbie, had spinal surgery a year ago for a ruptured disk in her neck. She came through the surgery, which was fairly extensive, without any issues. They monitored her blood pressure throughout--Abbie was on meds for high BP. Now, almost 14 years old, Abbie will be having dental surgery in a couple of weeks (assuming labs next week look good) to remove gum tissue that has grown over her teeth. Like you, I am anxious about the anesthesia but have confidence that my vet will take excellent care of her. If Tobey hasn't had bloodwork lately, you might want to ask your vet about doing that a few days before the dental procedure.

[deedz]

My boy, Harley, had a dental cleaning along with having 3 teeth extracted when his Cushing's was not controlled and he did fine with the anesthesia. I, too, was very concerned about him and the anesthesia but his vet assured me that they would monitor him very closely and if he would show signs of distress that they could bring him out of the anesthesia really fast.

Hugs, Lori


Hello again from me! I think that one of the issues re: anesthesia is that the agents can be hard on the liver and kidneys because it is through those organs that the drugs are processed and excreted from the body. Cushpups may have livers and kidneys that are already somewhat stressed, so you would be hoping to minimize the risks by using sedation for the shortest time possible and by using drugs that are the least hard for the body to metabolize and clear out. Since your vet is well aware of Tobey's issues, I would assume that he/she will take the proper steps to make the anesthetic as safe as possible for him.

As far as the prohibition against eating or drinking after midnight, no, Tobey definitely should not eat any food. However, if you're certain he won't have the procedure done until afternoon, you might ask the vet whether he could have a few sips of water upon first arising early in the morning. Going for fourteen hours or more without any hydration at all does seem extreme to me. As long as he is allowed only a little water no closer than 6-8 hours before the procedure, that might be OK and would keep Tobey more comfortable through the day. I'd double-check with the vet about that.

Marianne


Harley's vet said that they would be keeping him well hydrated intravenously with fluids, (before and after surgery.)


Everyone is so well-equipped, this support group is awesome:):):)


Hi--my Cush pup, Abbie, had spinal surgery a year ago for a ruptured disk in her neck. She came through the surgery, which was fairly extensive, without any issues. They monitored her blood pressure throughout--Abbie was on meds for high BP. Now, almost 14 years old, Abbie will be having dental surgery in a couple of weeks (assuming labs next week look good) to remove gum tissue that has grown over her teeth. Like you, I am anxious about the anesthesia but have confidence that my vet will take excellent care of her. If Tobey hasn't had bloodwork lately, you might want to ask your vet about doing that a few days before the dental procedure.


Update, A HUGE thank you to you all for your comforting input!! {{hugs}} Tobey had his dental and it was 30 minutes from start to finish, course he is only 10-11 pds. He did not need any extractions, both vet and I were amazed at that as he is 14 this yr, and hasn't had a cleaning in about 5 years. I chalk up his good dental condition to the small pieces of greenie I give both dogs nightly, but who knows, as I have read that Cushing's dogs teeth are usually affected.

Thank you all again for your help! :)

[judymaggie]

So glad that Tobey's dental procedure went smoothly -- I am sure you are relieved that it is now behind you!

[molly muffin]

Yay, great to hear that Tobeys dental went well and no extractions needed! whooo hooo!