Recent diagnosis - 14yo cocker/ my precious baby passed away

[roseiswild]

Hello, everyone. I have so many questions, I'm not sure I even know where to start, but I actually have some of her records now. So... here goes.

I took my older cocker spaniel - spayed, female - to the vet one morning because she had a fever. They took her to run some tests, came back, and told me she had pancreatitis. (I don't know how one gets or avoids pancreatitis. :confused:) We decided that the best thing for her was to stay there and have the 48 hour iv treatment, and they could test for suspected Cushing's while she was there. They did the ldd, and the vet told me she definitely has Cushing's. Her results were pre-dex 11.1, 4 hour post-dex 4.1, and 8 hour post-dex 4.8.

(*She did have a acth test about a year ago. They said it came back not very convincing. Pre-acth was 7.7 and post-acth was 14.6. My family was opposed to doing the ldd at the time.)

She did great. When the treatment was done, and we were ready to go home - they gave me metronidazole, denamarin, prostora, tramadol, vetoryl 30 and vetoryl 10 (she was 40 pounds when she got her shots in the beginning of February), and a prescription for royal k9 gi low fat. (Somehow her leg was injured while she was there. I have no idea how, but was told Cushing's can cause this sort of problem. :confused: )

She hates this food. Absolutely refuses to eat it, no matter what... so I made her chicken and rice and such. She was doing great until she ran out of antibiotics. The vet doesn't want to refill the antibiotics at the time. Okay.
So, I continue giving her all other pills as instructed; providing small, frequent meals (she didn't really eat anything while at the vet); constant access to fresh water; frequent sunshine... when suddenly she doesn't want to eat. Anything. And I don't know what's wrong. The vet tells me to feed her anything she's willing to eat to get her to eat. Anything - Including McDonald's. Which, in the end, is what I ended up giving her - a no pickles, no onions, no mustard McDouble - and, boy, was she over the moon... until she was sick all over again, and on iv treatment at the hospital again the next morning.

Not sure if it's the burger, or an infection, or what. They have mentioned her white count is elevated.

I don't know what to do, but clearly feeding the dog whatever is not the best idea. I can't believe I did that. Sadly, I'm beyond exhausted and didn't even recognize an obviously terrible idea when I heard it. I do have blood test results and rx info type information, but the report pages I have don't have any doctors notes or anything like that on them. I'm not sure how much or which information is particularly useful, so I don't really know what else to say right now. I hope what's here so far is helpful. I should probably stop before I just ramble on.
Is any of this normal?

Thank you in advance for any information. I really appreciate it.

[tank&kat]

Hi,

I don't have much time to respond tonight but wanted to quickly inform you that if your girl won't eat, do not give her vetoryl. Stay far away from fast food joints. Far, far away.

How much does she weigh and what is dose of vetoryl is she currently taking? I can't express enough how much I relate to the exhaustion you speak of. You will get a lot of great advice here. There are people here who have been in the exact position you are in now that can help guide you through the process and answer many of your questions. I will check back later today.

~Kat

[labblab]

Welcome, and just like Kat, I can totally relate to your exhaustion and worry. :o

First of all, I am going to be so bold as to say that your vet really owes you some extended free medical care given all his screw-ups. We try not to bash vets around here, but SHEESH! The most obvious issue, of course, is advising you to feed McDonald's to a dog recovering from acute pancreatitis. This second hospitalization ought to be 100% free!

Secondly, the mysterious leg injury would be a big concern to me, in terms of how my dog was being handled there. Somebody at the vet's office surely must know what happened at the time your dog started limping, so please, they ought to fess up. It is true that Cushpups are vulnerable to ligament injuries, but something had to have happened to put the leg in jeopardy for the injury to have occurred.

And lastly, it makes no sense that the low dose dexamethasone test was performed while your dog was acutely ill with pancreatitis. That test is especially vulnerable to returning false positives in the face of other nonadrenal illnesses and injuries, or even highly stressful situations. So your dog may not even have Cushing's at all, and your vet ought to have known that those were poor conditions under which to have tested.

Clearly, something must have already been going on back at the time the original ACTH was performed, however. Can you tell us what prompted that first testing? At this point, does your dog exhibit any symptoms other than perhaps a vulnerability to pancreatitis?

As far as the feeding issue, I can totally relate to finding an acceptable food. I have an 11 year-old nonCush Lab with a history of pancreatitis and periodic GI flares. We had been doing really well for quite a while, but are having some diarrhea issues again (so I'm back to cooking the trusty chicken and rice again this morning, myself :o). For years now, our mainstay food has been California Natural Weight Maintenance Rice and Chicken kibble. It is very limited ingredient, moderate protein, very low fat for a commercial food, and fairly well mirrored the profile of the dry Royal Canin low fat intestinal food. Unfortunately, I think it is now being sold only in big 30-pound bags, though, so it's not something you could easily just sample.

Anyway, bottom line is that I'm very sorry your girl is back at the hospital. Hopefully, things will settle down again quickly. But under these circumstances, I agree with Kat -- I would not feel comfortable even considering restarting the Vetoryl until she is stabilized from this hospitalization and eating normally again. And even then, until we learn more, the Cushing's diagnosis itself seems highly suspect.

Hoping your girl will soon be home and feeling well,
Marianne

[roseiswild]

Hi,

I don't have much time to respond tonight but wanted to quickly inform you that if your girl won't eat, do not give her vetoryl. Stay far away from fast food joints. Far, far away.

How much does she weigh and what is dose of vetoryl is she currently taking? I can't express enough how much I relate to the exhaustion you speak of. You will get a lot of great advice here. There are people here who have been in the exact position you are in now that can help guide you through the process and answer many of your questions. I will check back later today.

~Kat

Thank you!
No vetoryl if she's not eating... Eating in general, or is it one where you need to eat close to, or at, the time you've taken it? I just want to make sure, because the info provided doesn't say anything. The only one that says anything about food is the denamarin.
I spoke with a different vet at the practice - said he would not allow fatty food, and explained why and what could happen. Definitely no fast food! Ever, ever again.

She was 40 pounds when she got her booster shots on 2/2. She was 36 when she went back to the vet - though she ate several pounds of food over the days she was home with me. They gave me 10mg caps and 30 mg caps of vetoryl and said to give her both at the same time once a day.

Thank you so much!


Welcome, and just like Kat, I can totally relate to your exhaustion and worry. :o

First of all, I am going to be so bold as to say that your vet really owes you some extended free medical care given all his screw-ups. We try not to bash vets around here, but SHEESH! The most obvious issue, of course, is advising you to feed McDonald's to a dog recovering from acute pancreatitis. This second hospitalization ought to be 100% free!

Secondly, the mysterious leg injury would be a big concern to me, in terms of how my dog was being handled there. Somebody at the vet's office surely must know what happened at the time your dog started limping, so please, they ought to fess up. It is true that Cushpups are vulnerable to ligament injuries, but something had to have happened to put the leg in jeopardy for the injury to have occurred.

And lastly, it makes no sense that the low dose dexamethasone test was performed while your dog was acutely ill with pancreatitis. That test is especially vulnerable to returning false positives in the face of other nonadrenal illnesses and injuries, or even highly stressful situations. So your dog may not even have Cushing's at all, and your vet ought to have known that those were poor conditions under which to have tested.

Clearly, something must have already been going on back at the time the original ACTH was performed, however. Can you tell us what prompted that first testing? At this point, does your dog exhibit any symptoms other than perhaps a vulnerability to pancreatitis?

As far as the feeding issue, I can totally relate to finding an acceptable food. I have an 11 year-old nonCush Lab with a history of pancreatitis and periodic GI flares. We had been doing really well for quite a while, but are having some diarrhea issues again (so I'm back to cooking the trusty chicken and rice again this morning, myself :o). For years now, our mainstay food has been California Natural Weight Maintenance Rice and Chicken kibble. It is very limited ingredient, moderate protein, very low fat for a commercial food, and fairly well mirrored the profile of the dry Royal Canin low fat intestinal food. Unfortunately, I think it is now being sold only in big 30-pound bags, though, so it's not something you could easily just sample.

Anyway, bottom line is that I'm very sorry your girl is back at the hospital. Hopefully, things will settle down again quickly. But under these circumstances, I agree with Kat -- I would not feel comfortable even considering restarting the Vetoryl until she is stabilized from this hospitalization and eating normally again. And even then, until we learn more, the Cushing's diagnosis itself seems highly suspect.

Hoping your girl will soon be home and feeling well,
Marianne

Thank you!
I really am so exhausted... It feels like I haven't slept all month, or longer. I can't believe I gave her that, and I'm so mad at myself for doing it, but I don't think that they will not charge us. Her vet continues to stand by = feed her anything she's willing to eat to get her to eat. (The other vet does not agree.) She did explain that pancreatitis can be a chronic or recurring condition in Cushing's patients.

Surely someone does know what happened to her leg, but no one has fessed up to anything. At first, the vet assumed that it was already injured when I brought her in. I definitely corrected that. She was doing fine getting around before she went in - our house requires that you climb/descend an entire flight of stairs to get to ground level, and she was doing that, all on her own, no problem - and I had checked her for injuries myself on several occasions before taking her in. (She can't see, and can be stubborn to do what she wants, so I check her. A lot.)
The vet told me she had physically examined/manipulated and x-rayed my baby - She said she had torn her acl, and explained that this can happen with Cushing's... but I don't understand how it could have happened if she were in a kennel most all the time she was there. I saw her kennel - there were cushion-y mats on the bottom to protect feet and toes from getting caught. So, I don't know what happened, but I am concerned. Especially now.

Oh dear. I didn't know any of this. Now that I've been told what some of the signs often are, I would say she did have some, but they are probably signs of other things, too.

There are no notes on the records they gave me, but, if I remember correctly, the acth test last year was prompted by a combo of bladder troubles and previous itchy skin issues - She had a bladder infection a few times in a relatively short period, and she had been terribly itchy at times before.
She had been rx'd royal canin k9 urin s/o in the middle of 2014, and iams k/o k9 in the beginning of 2014. She hated these foods as well, but at least she ate them for the most part. Sadly, these foods didn't seem to agree with, or help, her really. They made her tummy upset and gave her diarrhea. She had also been rx'd pyoben shampoo for her itchiness in early 2014.
Between the rx food just now and the last rx food in 2014 (I do find it odd that all of this rx food seemed to make her ill, if she was even willing to eat it), I had been feeding her nutrisca (which she did great on = no more special shampoo!), until I couldn't find it anymore... and then earthborn holistic meadow feast (the lamb one). Both of which, she absolutely loved! Ate every bite, with no complaints, every time, and her heath had improved quite a lot... until now. (I still find it weird that my dog would hate these rx foods.)

Around this time last year, they tested her thyroid as well. I can check, but I believe the first test for that was a year previous (early 2014), due to those itchy skin problems. Every time they tested, my girls results were in the low-normal range, so they didn't really recommend anything for it. We did do a short term trial run of a low dose thyroid med, to see if it would do anything for her, but it didn't seem to do much. Her itchiness had improved with the food change, and her results were the same low normal without it, so we didn't continue when it ran out.

This whole thing... It's just been awful. I don't know what to do. My poor baby.
Thank you so much for all your help! Will update shortly.

[roseiswild]

Hello again! I have more information to add.

Blood tests when she checked in again showed -- alkp high, bun/urea high, hgb slightly low, monos high, rbc slightly low, wbc high, pct elevated, plt high, neut high, retics high.

Vet told me she was on iv, slightly dehydrated, and not really eating. (There was food in her kennel - the rx food she hates and bites of chicken. I'm guessing she ate the chicken, if she ate at all. :( She lost a lot of weight.) Vet told me she may have an abscess, maybe something else. They gave her injection antibiotics - infection not really responding/they can't get ahead of it. Vet told me they performed more than one imaging exam/scan of her pancreas and liver and found nothing, other than her liver is large. Vet mentioned that another vet voiced concerns regarding Addison's/Addisonian crisis, but I don't really understand why. They didn't really explain it. They mentioned a concern about sepsis due to low blood sugar.

My pup clearly wanted to leave. (The office door was left open while I was visiting, and she made a break for the outside door.) The vet continues to tell me = feed her anything she's willing to eat to get her to eat = and expressed obvious pleasure that my dog had eaten that cheeseburger. :eek:
The decision was made to bring her home. I live with diabetics - keeping her sugar up... not a problem.

Most current blood test showed -- alkp high, bun/urea just barely above normal, glu low, hct low, hgb low, monos high, rbc low, wbc high, pct slightly elevated, plt elevated, neut high.

They took her off the vetoryl - not positive which day they did that, as what I have doesn't say - but they did not give me any to take home. They gave enrofloxacin, diawin, and (more) prostora to go with her other pills. They told me she had diarrhea, but also that she hadn't really eaten. (How much diarrhea could she have with almost no food? :confused:) They set up a bag of lactated ringers for me to use at home, gave needles, and a tech came in and showed me how to do subcutaneous hydration treatments - 200ml per day.

When I took her in the first time this month, it was the first time she's ever had pancreatitis - that I'm aware of anyway. (I was looking some things up and, I guess, it's not always something that has obvious symptoms requiring treatment. :confused: )

This whole thing has been one steep curve. I really wish that I had had the time and energy to find this place and come here sooner. I've learned so much already. I thank you all so much for all your help, advice, and suggestions.

[tank&kat]

Hi again and happy Easter to you,

40 mg is an appropriate dose so if there is mention of an addisonian crisis, it's possible your girl has been misdiagnosed. Inappetence and diarrhea are two of the symptoms associated with a crisis. I'm not liking this vet too much. At least the decision was made to discontinue the vetoryl.

To answer the food question, you wouldn't want to give a dog vetoryl if they are not eating a meal with the pill or if they are not eating what they normally eat because of an illness/sickness. Also, denamarin is to be given on an empty stomach.

If addisonian crises was even mentioned by a DVM, that dog should not have left the building without an ACTH test. How long exactly was she on the vetoryl before it was discontinued?

~Kat

[roseiswild]

Hi, and a happy Easter to you, too! :)

Thank you. Her vet didn't really explain much... and I do wonder if she was misdiagnosed. Being here has helped a lot.
She did have a different vet for her first (2 day) visit, than her second (longer) visit, but the two agree on most everything regarding my dog. Asking one is very much like asking the other. (The vet against feeding her fatty food is not actually her vet. He just happened to be available to talk while I was visiting.)

I was 50/50 on taking her home when I did, but the alternative was to wait until at least Monday. (They're closed on Sundays, holiday or no.) I didn't want to leave her there. Especially, since they would be closed. I'm really hoping that that was the best choice for her.
Aside from the things we already had, like denamarin, they didn't give me even a weeks worth of meds for her. So... Frankly, I left with the impression that she discontinued the vetoryl simply because she expected her to die. Soon. (The not-my-dogs-vet vet seemed to think she would be fine, if she could get through the infection. :confused:)
I think it's fair to say that I'm not liking her vet too much myself right now. For a number of reasons.

They did her blood work before I got there. I have the results, but I don't have anything that shows they did another acth test. The only one in her records is from last year.
She had been on the vetoryl for only 5 days at home. They had given me new blister strips when we went home with it the first time, so I don't think they gave her any before then, but I don't know if they continued to give it to her when I took her back. They didn't say. If they did, it would have been an additional 4 days at the most. That would include giving it to her both the day I brought her back, and the day I took her home again.

I have been trying to do research, but I'm really struggling to make sense of what's happened. Is any of this normal? Like, at all? It really doesn't seem like it from what I found so far. I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.

[labblab]

Gosh, I'm so sorry for everything you two have been through! I surely understand why you wanted to have your girl back home with you, and under these circumstances, I believe I'd have done just the same. I really hope she'll start rebounding a bit now. If not, I am thinking it is time to consult with a specialty vet who has more experience with diagnosing complicated disorders (an "internal medicine specialist" or "IMS"). By any chance, do you live near a veterinary school? Or if not, there may be some specialty practices in your area. We can help you try to locate somebody, if you'd like. I'm just fearful that your regular vet is over her head at this point.

Can you check the labwork and see whether your girl's potassium and sodium levels were normal? Also, even if a full ACTH was not performed, maybe (hopefully!) they checked a basic resting cortisol level. These three things -- potassium, sodium, and cortisol -- are the levels that are at risk for becoming unbalanced if a dog is overdosed with trilostane. Since you heard the one vet mentioning Addison's, they must have wondered about that themselves, and as Kat says, I surely hope they at least checked these three levels.

Based on this new imaging, I do wonder whether pancreatitis was even a genuine issue the first time around, or whether there is something else entirely different going on that is reflected in the infection. It is just so hard to know. But I absolutely agree that she is much safer "off" the trilostane right now, and I'm hoping maybe she'll start eating some chicken and rice again, perhaps with some nice stinky tuna water poured on top? Or maybe some baby food smeared around (make sure no onions/garlic are included).

Please keep us updated today, OK? And I sure hope you can both get some much-needed rest!
Marianne

[roseiswild]

Hello again

The most current blood work results I have show everything totally fine, except - alkp high, bun/urea just barely above normal, glu low, hct low, hgb low, monos high, rbc low, wbc high, pct slightly elevated, plt elevated, neut high. I don't have anything that shows they tested those on their own, or that they did another acth or cortisol check. Could the cortisol be listed differently than what I might be looking for?

It is really hard to know. When they examined her at the first visit, all she said was that they didn't see anything in her pancreas or liver, no tumours or masses, but that her liver was large. It may be that her pancreas was inflamed, but that they were expecting that, so they just didn't mention it. I honestly don't know. I know they have said the same thing every time they sonogram her pancreas and liver.

At this point - I keep offering food and leaving as much available as I can. She's loving the smell of food, licking it, and putting it in her mouth... but she's not actually swallowing much of it.

[molly muffin]

Did you get the actual print out of the sonogram? I'm wondering if there is more specifics on it than is being told verbally?

Is the glucose very low? That can be as off putting as high glucose (diabetes). Maybe try just a tad of honey or something on her tongue?

It sure does sound like an infection somewhere with those blood results, WBC high for instance. Rather than the electrolytes being off, it is the blood itself that seems all over the place.

Marianne/Lori/Glynda any thoughts?

[tank&kat]

Since she stopped taking vetoryl a few days ago, her appetite should have improved. How has she been doing? I absolutely agree with Marianne that an IMS, internal medicine specialist could certainly help. Not many gp vets are equipped to treat concurrent endocrine illnesses.

Which vet prescribed the rx low fat food? Was it the one that said mc donalds hamburgers were fine to feed her?

~Kat

[labblab]

I really wish I had some better diagnostic ideas to throw out myself, but I do think somebody really knowledgeable needs to take a look at your girl ASAP in order to sort out all the abnormalities. Since she is still not eating, I think she will continue to degenerate without some professional help rather quickly. Here's a link that can help you locate an internal medical specialist in your area:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182

I just don't know whether her pancreas nor Cushing's have ever been the true issues here, and I'm really fearful for her right now. :o

Marianne

[roseiswild]

Hi

*This is probably going to be pretty long. I'm going to try to answer as much as I can.*

Unfortunately, I don't have any printouts or copies of any of her imaging tests. I didn't see them in her chart, but they may keep them separate. It is entirely possible there is more than is being said. I really don't know.

Going off what the two vets that have been treating her said to me = The dog is anemic and has an infection. They are very concerned. They can't get ahead of it. It's not getting worse, but it's not really improving. She possibly has an abscess, maybe something else is going on. They don't see anything on the imaging they've done to explain it, but maybe there's a small tumour they can't see. The liver count is high; sugar is low. They are concerned she may develop sepsis if it gets too low. She's not really eating, but she really needs to eat, so feed her anything she's willing to eat to get her to eat. Make sure she takes all her pills. I'm really sorry. = It sounds to me like they think she might have developed some sort of immune issue, or cancer, or something, and that this is the end.
Going off that, I decided to call the vet and ask about all of that. Also asked if I should increase her pain medication to 3 times a day instead of 2 since they seem to think this is the end. Also asked if it's okay to put food down her during the times I'm giving her the meds (except the denamarin), and if it would it help them work. She didn't really have anything to say she hadn't already, and she didn't tell me to increase her pain meds, but she did say it would be okay to do the food thing and that it would probably help, yes.

Fights with honey! Many since she got home. lol. So far she has swallowed it, but she has always hated it for some reason. A friend brought us over some food, molasses and agave, and I got her a squeeze tube vitamin supplement (dying or not, I see no reason for her to suffer side-effects of vit deficiencies during all of this), which does have some sugar in it. So, at the very least, we have more sugar raising options and food available and more nutrition going on. Have another bag of lactating ringers and needles on the way. They didn't want to refill her rx's that have run out at this time.

The vitamins (and sweet stuff) helped a lot so far - energy improved, moving around more.
I have to say - her attitude has been pretty great this whole time. Been very cooperative/understanding - taking her meds no problem, doing the fluid treatments no problem, putting up with me having to carry her around to go potty, etc. Aside from stairs (which she tried to sneak past me to climb on her own - several times! stubborn girl), she's needed very little help to get around. Especially when she's motivated.

The vet that gave the rx for the food was not the same vet that was happy about McDonalds, but the two don't really seem to disagree on much regarding my girl. If she approved of the idea or not, she did not say anything to me about it. Over the phone or otherwise.

I agree - see a specialist (or someone like that). I wanted to take her before, but (probably) not going to happen. Unfortunately. I'm already beyond tapped out, and my financial helper is simply not going for it. At all. Huge fights. I have continued to look into and ask, but... truth is - we're probably stuck with me doing the best I can with what we already have or can get. Really worried, but she does seem to be doing better. At least, at the moment.
((To be honest... based on what they've said and their behaviour, I've pretty much spent this entire time terrified that she's going to die any minute, and that hasn't really changed. I've already hid from my pup and cried so many times. Of course, dogs attitude = What's wrong? I can fix it. I'm not dying, but thanks for all the cool foodstuffs and sleeping on the floor with me. Can we sleep on the bathroom floor again for a little while tonight? I know it sucks, but I'm bored with the living room again. I know... Let's go outside and bother someone. Bring the chicken! And don't forget my drink. = lol. Dogs.))

I don' t know what's going on. To me, her lab reports look like a bad infection with (recovering) anemia, and that - even if she had Cushing's - she was very responsive to treatment, but I don't know what to make of anything at this point.

Thank you all so much for all the ideas, and advice, and... everything.

[molly muffin]

Well I think cushings is the least of her problems and probably not relevant. I do think raising the sugar and getting some into her, over coming the infection will help.
It's encouraging that when her sugar level is up a bit to within range that her energy level improves. That might also be affecting her appetite.

[tank&kat]

Randy,

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I have done the same thing. I have to leave the room when I cry at the thought of losing my dog. I can't let him see me cry. I just can't. That doesn't mean I let it slip a couple of times. Sometimes it's better to let them know what you're feeling and that it will end and you'll be ok afterwards.

I know it doesn't sound like she has Cushing's. High cortisol (prednisone) is the best treatment for a pup that won't eat. What are her other symptoms besides the inappetence?

~Kat

[SandyH]

Cockers are prone to IMHA(Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia). I never heard of this disease until I lost my 2 yr old cocker to it. I have 3 cockers and have become quite educated on this disease, unfortunately. While you did not post actual numbers you did mention low HCT(hematocrit) which could indicate this. You can google it and read up on this. Easy way to check is to check her gums. If she is black and has black gums then check her tongue color. Gums and tongue should be nice and pink, pale/white gums indicate anemia.
Hoping for the best from one cocker wigglebutt owner to another.

[roseiswild]

molly muffin, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a low sugar level wasn't helping in the slightest. So far, the vitamins and increased sugar level seem to really be improving things.

Kat, thank you for sharing that. I really thought I was doing something strange. I'm sorry you're going through it, too. It really sucks.

I feel just terrible for this poor dog.
They seemed so sure about the Cushing's diagnosis. Her symptoms for Cushing's - pot belly; a lot of panting, drinking, urine; she would eat others food sometimes; overweight; little bumps on the skin (but I don't know that they are the correct ones); couple fatty patches (but they don't seem to be in the right place). Admittedly, her energy level had gone down over the years, but - she's 14 with some arthritis. I don't know if they counted lowered energy, but I probably wouldn't.
Unless there are things not on the list I have, that's about it - without lab stuff. Though, this list... it seems like these could be caused by a lot of things. Or, nothing really.

Without lab stuff - the difference in symptoms is basically inappetence, a bum leg, and tiredness. I mean... She had diarrhea only twice while she's been with me at home. She hasn't vomited the whole time. (Unless she did at the vet and they didn't tell me.) I don't even remember the last time she pupchucked. Her not wanting to get up at a certain time, or being active (restless?) at the wrong time of day, are mostly to do with the fact that she can't tell what time it is.
Before I took her to the vet the first time: she hadn't stopped eating - she was picky, but she ate; she was still walking around the yard, house, deck just fine; and whatever noise she made about anything was the same as always. She hasn't cried or anything. If she were human, I would probably say that she has a really bad cold or something and just plain feels like crap.
Right now, I'm not sure if this dog ever had Cushing's, or pancreatitis.

I can't remember what they said they gave her at the vet to try to get her to eat. It's not on the paperwork I have. I am fairly certain they didn't feed her if she didn't eat on her own. :(

SandyH, I'm so sorry you lost your sweet baby.

My family has had cockers for decades, and I have never heard about that about them. Definitely not an awesome thing, but good to know. Thank you.
I am a little familiar with human IMHA, but didn't know dogs got the same thing... just assumed they could probably get something similar. I did ask the vet about such a possibility when I called, but she didn't respond to it any differently than any other possibility I threw at her. They didn't mention checking her spleen, or doing a Coombs' test (do they do that for dogs?)... I'll certainly be looking up the dog IMHA. Tonight? Today? Today.

[molly muffin]

I just have a moment but yes they can run a Coombs test on dogs.

She probably does feel like crud, poor baby.

It sounds like you have alternatives to the honey. Just try maybe a rub on her gums even.

[roseiswild]

So, it's Friday morning and we are at the vet again. Why? Because I may not know whatever else is going on, but I know abscess drainage when I see it.

Me - completely freaked out. Dog - like she's relieved.

We see the vet (different vet than her regular vet) and he confirms abscess. He and the tech take her back to clip her hair down and assess the situation. Tech comes back with my baby, tells me a lot came out. I tell her a lot already came out, she just looks at me weird. The vet comes back and starts asking me about other dogs. It's not just one abscess - it's several.

She was bit! Somebody bit my baby!

[roseiswild]

(Let me try that again. Now that I've calmed down some.)

Somewhere, somehow, my dog has been bit by another dog, and has terribly abscessed wounds from it.

Needless to say, but I'm really upset about this. They are definitely dog bites, and there are several pretty significant holes oozing in her leg. I'm not clear on how this happened, but it is the same leg that suddenly had a torn ligament. It that how that happened? Why wouldn't anybody say or do anything about it?
I feel so guilty that I haven't been checking her as thoroughly as I usually do because she's been going to the vet so much and they've been examining her. (I know - I will never know if it would have made any difference, why/who would I even think to check for such a thing... but I should have checked her anyway, and I am so mad and disappointed with myself that I didn't.)
She is most certainly in a much better mood than I am... She seems strangely happy about the situation. I suppose it feels a bit better that it's draining and the pressure is off.

They gave me more antibiotics and probiotics, and I have several weeks of refills on those. I've continued giving her the vitamins and rotating through the various sweets (still giving her her pills and hydration treatments, of course), but the infection is really bad. I've gone through a lot of washcloths already.
She is more interested in food, but unable to eat on her own, so I am going to try -slowly- feeding her more (like, down the throat feeding). I think she needs more help, but the vet didn't suggest doing anything more than what he did, and I'm already doing more than he suggested I do. I called my helper and she's very much against taking her to a specialist, or taking her back to the hospital even. She, for some reason, suddenly doesn't understand how bacteria works, and keeps talking about how the dog has had her shots. This dog needs a miracle. This is just unreal.


*Her gums are one of the weird things to me. They have been telling me she's anemic over and over, and her blood-work does show that her numbers are a bit under, but every time I have checked her gums - they haven't been pale. Even while she was at the hospital and I was visiting -they were pink or red. Sometimes redder or pinker than other times, but never actually pale. They have been the lightest after she's been sleeping deeply for a while, but... it really takes a while, and once she wakes up, or gets more air going, or gets moving - they're red as ever. (I've been told this can be a side effect of her pain meds., effect of shallow-breathing, deep sleep.)
Right now is the first time I've actually been concerned about the colour of her gums this whole time. I don't even begin to know what to make of that.

*I have been using the honey, molasses, and agave in kind of a rotation, since they each have their own benefits and drawbacks, and trying to make sure I balance them out properly with the vitamin squeeze stuff and her food. I know that's a lot of math, and I have no idea if that's what I'm supposed to be doing, but I wanted to avoid sugar spikes or crashes, or her getting too much of any particular vitamin that could cause a problem.
That really seemed important before... I'm not nearly so concerned about that now.

[molly muffin]

Oh my gawd!
Is there any other dogs at home that could have attacked her? Or Nyone other than you walking her that wouldn't have told you?
It is Very suspicious thT it is the same leg that somehow miraculously got. Torn ligament while at the vet stay before. That mKes me concerned not only if they didn't sepRate their patients but if this happened and they didn't tell you.
Did they address that issue at all?
Or. Could this have happened prior without your knowledge?
Infection as bad as this seems to be will affect appetite and other things. Not to mention any pain from the hurt leg.
So this Could be a factor bit much depends on timing of when it happened too.

[roseiswild]

There is one other dog at home - almost 2, has been with my older girl almost her whole life. My big girl has been around no dogs other than her buddy and the ones at the vet. Even on walks, we have encountered no other dogs. (I always walk them separately.) The back is completely fenced, but I always go with anyway... because I don't want her to get caught on a bush or something. (Fat lot of good it did to be worried about that, I guess.)

I did consider her buddy, but really I don't see how. I have barely left the house at all for the last two months, and most every time I was gone - I was taking my older girl to the vet or visiting her there. If I have to go to the store, there is someone else here, or I separate them. (The little one keeps wanting to cuddle with her or eat her food, and she doesn't feel good. So... Puppy gate.)
There has been no noise - no growling, no crying, no yelping, nothing. There has been no blood - anywhere - until the rupture... Which was really, really obvious (and quite disgusting) because we have sand coloured carpet. The kitchen floor and their beds are white. I'm not seeing much opportunity, if any, and it would have been almost impossible to miss any mess.

The only other people that would have walked her and the only other dogs that would have any access to her would be at the vet. Since her first stay she's had to be carried up and down the stairs just to go out because of what happened to her leg. Nobody else in this house will do that. (I can promise you that. With few exceptions, I've been taking care of her completely on my own.)

Honestly, the hospital/vets seem to be avoiding the issue. I did notice that when I was talking with the vet and asking questions... that when it came to the point where I made it clear that if it wasn't her buddy that the only other place she's been around other dogs is here... he was suddenly very busy and had to leave the room. Of course, he may have just been busy, but it seems pretty convenient to me right now.

This bite wasn't properly treated at all before now, and I can tell. So, if it happened there, I don't think they're going to admit it. (You know, I can understand that mistakes/accidents happen, but what I don't understand is why - even if they didn't want to tell me - why didn't they at least treat it? I now wonder if they actually, truly examined her leg any of those times they said? Why, why, when she came back the second time, did they not make any effort to find the abscess they were convinced she had somewhere? Did they look at anything, anywhere, other than her pancreas or liver? Did they even palpate her body? It was obvious she had an infection. They kept telling me about it. Did they make any actual effort to find it? This is insane.)

Unfortunately, I get my own abscesses, so am pretty familiar with them. Absolutely, an infection this bad would affect appetite and cause pain. No question. (Probably cause a pretty high white count, and a lowered red count, too. Actually, this level of infection could possibly explain pretty much everything but her high alkp.)

I can't even believe this... I took her in the first time because she had a fever. A fever. No jaundice, no diarrhea, no anorexia, no vomiting. She had off and on been feeling kind of icky since her shots, and had had 2 pee accidents in the house by the door, but she was eating okay, and drinking, walking, etc. just fine. Her gums were pink, her skin was fine. What has happened to my baby?

[molly muffin]

I'm inclined to think that if it wasn't your puppy then it happened at the vets and they didn't either take note of it and tell you or do a check to see if she was okay, which is just absolutely awful.

The infection as bad as it is, could be affecting all of those thing, other than the ALKP going up which you said was prior to all of this.

So I'd say, treat the infection aggressively and see if you can't get her back to normal and do this at home as much as possible with no leaving her at the vets.

Is there another vet in the area that could take over her treatment? I'm not impressed with this one at all!!

[roseiswild]

If it wasn't the puppy (which I don't think it was), the vet is the only other option.

I've looked through all the records pages I have for her. There's only one imaging exam listed for her first visit - a radiograph of her abdomen/chest. It was part of the exam she was given before I was told she had pancreatitis and was admitted.
I remember waiting a really long time in the exam room to get her back the first time. I was told it was because she was being examined and getting an x-ray... but if they did any other x-ray or sonogram, it's not even in her chart. Even if they decided not to charge for it... that doesn't make any sense.
I really don't understand. She's been going there almost her whole life. They had always taken good care of her. Or, so I thought. I don't know what happened, but I definitely don't want her staying there again. I have so many questions about all of this.

Have been giving food and water by spoon or baster, and then syringe (since I now have a proper syringe), since last post. She acts like she's absolutely starving and quite thirsty.
Is there some reason they never told me to do this? Was I just supposed to sit here and let her starve to death if she didn't eat by herself? That's just cruel to me. She's so hungry.

Already had a fight with my helper again. This dog doesn't appear to agree at all that it's time to go. My helper doesn't see what good it would do to take her in... anywhere. I offered everything I could think of at the time, but she's firm on it, doesn't think it will help. I don't even know if I could do the injectable antibiotics at home, but I offered anyway. She sees no reason for the antibiotics to fix things now, if they didn't fix them before. (I think someone needs a biology course.)

Absolutely agreed. I've already started looking for another vet. Hopefully one closer to home.

[roseiswild]

I found another vet. Sadly, it will be only for the little one.

My baby passed away just before 6.

She had a good amount of food and water throughout the day, and she had a nice big drink and a good meal shortly before. Of course, she had lots and lots of pets and cuddles... always.

She fought so hard, but it just wasn't enough. I should have done better, known better. My sweet girl. My princess precious. I failed her. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

Thank all of you so much for all of your help and support.

[Budsters Mom]

I am so very sorry for your loss. :( Your precious baby is now pain free and surrounded by many loving fur angels. They will watch out for her now.

We remain here for you as always,

Hugs,
Kathy

[Joan2517]

Oh, I am so sorry for your loss. I have been following your thread and hoping that things would work out. It's so hard when there are so many unanswered questions, the guilt and "should haves" can paralyze you...I know. I still have them...Lena has been gone six weeks and there are days that I just can't think of anything else except for whether or not I did all I could for her; did I put too much faith in my vet? should I have just left her alone and not given her the Vetoryl at her age? Was she on too much?

You did everything you could with what you knew and were told. You're a good mom and you loved her...that's what matters most.

Joan

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh! I'm stunned as I truly did not expect this and thought she could recover. :(
My heart truly breaks for you and your precious baby.

Sincerest condolences!

[SandyH]

I am so sorry. I think every time we lose a baby we all have the doubts, the guilty feelings you are feeling, the what ifs. Please don't feel guilty, you were a wonderful mom to your baby and she only knew love from you.

[roseiswild]

Thank you, everyone.

Since I know many things now that I didn't before - I'm sure I'll spend plenty of time kicking myself (seeing as I already have) before it's out of my system. I just need to try to remember that I didn't always know these things, and that I did try to do the best I could with what I had. (I'm already taking steps to avoid being put in that position again.)

I really thought she was going to get better, too. :( It was pretty rough, but it looked so hopeful. It really did. The puppy spent most of that last day trying to play with her. She seems just crushed without her buddy. My heart feels shattered... I can't even imagine what it feels like for her.

My poor baby. At least she's free now.



**My girls pre-test numbers for the acth and ldds were above the reference range (I have now been given), but her results indicate that she was responsive to the interventions and all of her post numbers were well within range. I don't understand.

They were adamant that she had Cushing's, but then took the meds away while they were concerned about a terrible infection? :confused: (Then again, they have been adamant about a lot of things no other vet seems to agree with them on.) On the papers I have, there are no antibiotics listed for her after the first visit except the ones they gave me to give her at home. What? Did they even give her any while she was there? I don't know. It's been weeks and weeks since I asked for copies of everything... she's gone now and I still don't have them.

So much of what's happened just doesn't make any sense to me. I wonder if she even actually had Cushing's? I wonder why they told me to feed her cheeseburgers? I wonder why nobody treated her injury? I wonder why they never explained almost anything to me? At all? I wonder why nobody looked for the infection somewhere else when they didn't find it where they assumed it would be? I wonder why I was told she was getting an x-ray there is no record of her having? I wonder if she actually had pancreatitis that first time? I wonder if she ever should have been taking the vetoryl at all? I could go on for days... I have way more questions now than I did before. I just have no idea if I'm ever going to get any answers.

[molly muffin]

I don't know if you ever will either and I think the most important thing for you and your puppy is to get a better vet in the area. You could try to pursue getting the records from the vet. If you do just say you will be up on so and do date to pick them up but I don't know if now it is best to leave it or not as nothing will bring her back and I know I agree that her treatment at that vet or at the least the communication to you left a lot to be desired.

I do think that you have to concentrate on handeling the grief of her loss and I am sure that includes a range of emotions.
Just know we are here for you. Vent scream cry. It is all okay. And one day the memories of your baby will bring tons of smiles too.

[Joan2517]

It's been almost 7 weeks for me and I still scream and cry. You have been through the ringer and with all the questions you have about what happened, it hurts. Get the records from the vet, and then try to make peace with it all...that's all you can do.

I have to keep telling myself that nothing will bring Lena back to me and in the long run, it doesn't really matter what happened. I loved her with all my heart and she is at peace and I have to find my own peace...I'm not there yet...

We all know how you feel and we all feel for you.

[Tammysmom]

So very sorry for your loss. It is indeed a sad and painful time for you. You are going through a lot of emotions which are all a natural part of the grieving process. .. I lost my baby about 2 1/2 months ago. I still question if I did everything possible for her. Did she really have cushings or perhaps something else ? Did I give her to much trilostane or not enough ? Did I put to much trust in her vet ? Should I have looked harder for another one ? The questions and guilt go on and on. As Sharlene brought out. Scream, cry. Its ok. I still do that. Try to think about the good times you had together. Think about the good things you did for her. And you did, she was with you for 14 years. What a lucky girl she was to have you as her mom. And above all. You loved her and she felt that love. Thoughts and prayers. Brianna

[budindian]

I'm so sorry for you loss. I think we all go thru the should I have done more, could I have done more and we think we failed them. I read thru your posts and it sounds like you went above and beyond to try to get her health issues taken care of. Sounds like she was very much loved and I think at the end of the day that's all that matters and all our beloved babies remember or care about. I am still grieving the loss of my baby and its been almost 2 months. I still question myself on what if I had done this or why didn't I do that but the truth is I did ( and you did) everything you could and knew to do to try and make them feel better. At the end I was at my vet at least twice a week because he just wasn't feeling good at all. Take care of yourself and let your self grieve, its ok, you lost a loved one.

[DoxieMama]

Oh, I am so sorry! I can only imagine all the thoughts and emotions racing within you... what an experience. I am so, so glad you found a new vet for your puppy. I pray you will find peace.

Many hugs.
Shana