Could really use some strength and support/ Calcinosis cutis

[Gatorlmc]

My name is Laura and my Maltese Abby, who just turned 6 on 12-22-15, started displaying symptoms early in 2015, when she had just turned 5.
I woke up one morning to a wet spot in my bed,I knew something was wrong.
My Vet did blood work and thought she had gotten into something toxic due to the elevated liver enzymes.
Her lymph nodes were swollen so he did a needle biopsy to rule out lymphoma. Of course that came back negative and her symptoms continued to progress. My vet said "needle biopsy's are only 95% accurate but tissue biopsy's are 100% accurate" so, trusting him I agreed to having her neck cut open and tissue dug out! :-(
Of course that came back negative as well!
The Vet was stumped. He actually said "maybe it's behavioral" I said really?? Excessive drinking and urination is behavioral?!?! So, after $1600 without a diagnosis I googled her symptoms and there it was Cushings!
After much research I decided to initially go the holistic route due to her age and not wanting to have to medicate her for the rest of her life.
I found a Vet that did "Nutrition response testing", it was amazing! She got better, but after a while she would hit a wall and regress. After several months of this she eventually stopped getting better and I thought I was going to lose her.
She was continuing to lose her hair, she had calcinosis cutis on her bottom and other places, was completely lethargic, had no appetite and could not walk. I had to carry her everywhere and even hold up her back legs to help her go the bathroom when taking her outside. The only nutrition I could get in her was through syringe feeding.
I decided to try the conventional route and started her on 10mg of Vetoryl a day. After a couple of weeks of this she did not appear to be making much progress. The excessive drinking and urination had subsided, but she still had the pot belly, panted a lot, still could not walk without assistance and would not eat.
Then one day I noticed her eyes looked cloudy, being very concerned about them ulcerating, I took a picture and sent it to my vet.
His response was to come pick up a ophthalmic ointment and if not better in a couple of days call him.
Well, the very next day I noticed blood and clear liquid coming out of one of them and called my Vet. When I took her in they said that both eyes were ulcerated and the left one had burst and was actively leaking. They called the Vet ophthalmologist specialist in our area (Orlando) and I rushed her there. They told me it was going to be a very long night because I was going to have to put 3 different drops in her eyes 3-5 minutes apart every hour on the hour and then return at 8:00am the next morning. If the drops had not stopped the leaking they would have to do surgery to put a skin flap on the right eye to help it heal and they would have to remove the left eye.:-(
It was a very long night indeed, I set my alarm for every hour and then another alarm for 3 minutes, so we woke every hour on the hour all night long and put the 3 different drops in her eyes 3 minutes apart. (did you know you can actually go back to sleep for 3 minutes:-)
The next morning we arrived at 8 am and gratefully it had not gotten and worse, but it had not gotten any better either.
We returned for checkups every two days to the Ophthalmologist and when she was making no progress they sent me next door to the Vet Internal Medicine Specialists to see why she her body was not healing, and her Cushings did not appear to be getting any better.
As you know, the reason her eyes ulcerated and were not healing was due to the fact of her compromised immune system due to the Cushings.
The Vet Internal medicine Specialists did a myriad of tests from, blood work, x-rays, ultrasound, ACTH stem test etc.....(a very expensive day!)
Before the testing they thought that she may have been over medicated at 10mg a day for a 6lb dog, now down to about 5lbs.
The test results showed not only that she had Cushings, but was also hypothyroid, had a urinary tract infection, and possibly ulcers.
They did not decrease her Vetoryl they doubled it (because her numbers were still extremely high even with the Vetoryl), they put her on thyroid med's, ulcer med's and antibiotic for the urinary tract infection.
I saw a huge improvement within a few days after the thyroid med's started to work. She became mobile again, a little wobbly (which is exacerbated by a luxating patella) but walking on her own.
After the next ACTH stem test her Vetoryl was again increased from 20 to 25mg a day, they next test increased from 25mg-30mg, the next to 35mg the next to 40mg. We return in 7 days for our next test.
The Vet Internal medicine Doctor says she has never seen a case like this. :-(
My little Abby has the most aggressive case she has ever seen and they see a lot of cases because they are the specialists.
Yesterday I made an appointment to take her to UF Small Animal Hospital. I know that I am already with Specialists, but I am thinking that a teaching hospital has probably seen more unusual cases like ours.

Even though the calcinosis cutis on her bottom had gotten better and even with this much Vetoryl last week she broke out in patches underneath both ears, and on the top of her head. :-(
It is a daily struggle to figure out what she will eat and even then I have to hand feed her. I have started syringing her some Primal Raw Goats milk and that seems to have helped her stomach. I am also syringing her Honest Kitchen bone broth to get more nutrients in her.

My poor little Abby has gone from a beautiful full coat Maltese, to what most people think is a Chinese Crested.

This has been an extremely expensive venture, but she is worth every penny!
She is my little fighter! And we will get through this!

One positive note. After weeks of a lot of eye drops, we were able to save the sight in her right eye!
She has lost sight in the left eye but the ophthalmologist likes how it has scarred over and we will not have to remove it.



Thank you for listening!
I know this thread is long but I needed to get all this off of my chest to a group of people that "get it". I would welcome any advice on how to keep her calcinosis cutis from itching, and any other thoughts you would like to share.

[judymaggie]

Hi, Laura and Abby!

I'm so glad you found your way here although I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you to us. It does sound as though Abby has a lot of concurrent issues. So glad to read that Abby's sight in her right eye was saved!

All the history that you have provided will greatly help our admin staff offer feedback. To further help you, it would be great if you could post test results here. With regard to the blood chemistry, urinalysis and CBCs, you need only post the highs and lows along with the normal reference ranges.

We are especially interested in the results of the test/s that were performed to diagnose the Cushing's, including the results of the ultrasound, so if you could post those too that would help us a lot. With regard to the ACTH tests, please post both the pre- and post- numbers along with the dates of the tests. From what you have told us, there were several Vetoryl increases. With Abby only weighing 5 lbs., 40 mg. is 8x the recommended dose. That is not to say that Abby doesn't need to be on a dose greater than 5 mg. but that much of an increase would be very rare. Her doctors have told you that Abby's case was unusual. Were all the follow-up ACTH tests performed 4-6 hours after a meal followed by Vetoryl?

With regard to the calcinosis cutis, was a diagnostic biopsy conducted? We do have members that are experiencing success with their dog's treatment for calcinosis cutis. Improvement with calcinosis cutis is slow, and unfortunately, it does get worse before it gets better.

I am providing you with links to other members threads that are dealing with CC:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5850

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5908

Renee is our resident CC expert, and in her photo album she has pics of her Tobey with varying stages of CC. Here's a link to Renee's album: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=805

I also live in Florida. UF Small Animal Hospital has an excellent reputation. Many of their specialists come over to Blue Pearl Hospital in Tampa where I am on a part-time basis.

I am providing a link to our Resource forum which has a wealth of information regarding Cushing's and also includes articles written by some of the most renown veterinarians that specialize in endocrinology: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Laura,

Welcome to you and Abby! Gosh I am sorry that your dear girl is having a rough time right now and I know how worried you must be. I'm going to add calcinosis cutis to your thread title in that way it will be seen quicker by our members that are dealing with this, hope that is ok.

One important note, a dog that is "off" in any way should not be receiving Vetoryl. So if this were me I would withhold the Vetoryl until her appetite picks up.

Could you get copies of all tests that were done on Abby and post any abnormalities that are listed? With respect to the blood chemistry and complete blood count (CBC), you need only post the highs and lows and please include the normal reference ranges. We would love to see those ACTH stimulation results, so if would post them along with their respective time lines and dosages that will be a huge help to us in providing our best feedback, ok? And could you post the ultrasound findings for us too....thanks!

Are Abby's ACTH stimulation tests being performed 4-6 hours after her Vetoryl is given? And is she getting the Vetoryl with a meal?

Cushing's is probably the most difficult canine disease to diagnose. Physical symptoms associated with Cushing's are shared by many other diseases, blood and urine abnormalities are shared with other other diseases and the diagnostic tests to measure circulating cortisol are flawed and can yield false positive results in the face of non adrenal illness or even stress. All of these things make it very challenging to correctly diagnose Cushing's which makes it one of the most misdiagnosed canine diseases. There isn't one test that can accurately identify it so multiple tests are needed to validate a diagnosis for Cushing's.

While Cushing's appears to predispose dogs to developing Calcinosis cutis (CC) it is not the only disease where CC can be seen, dogs with renal insufficiency or hyperparathyroidism can develop CC.

We do have members treating their dog for CC and let me warn you, Calcinosis Cutis gets far worse before it gets better. CC can be quite painful so pain medication is generally prescribed, and this is one skin affliction that requires some patience because CC takes approximately 6 months to resolve. Here's a link to a member's thread (Renee) who is dealing with CC in her dog, I am providing a link to her album that has pictures of her Tobey with varying degrees of CC.
Renee's thread: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5908

And to her album: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=805

Was Abby having her eye issues when the tests for Cushing's were performed? If so, this can cause a false positive result for Cushing's. The majority of dogs with Cushing's have a ravenous appetite, pee rivers and drink excessive amounts of water. With Abby having an UTI this could be the cause of the increased drinking/urination and seeing that Abby did not have a huge appetite makes me question her Cushing's diagnosis just a bit.

I am so glad that Abby's right eye could be saved, eye problems can be difficult to treat and long to heal. if you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask them. ;) You've come to the right place for lots of support and we are some of the best hand holders!

Hugs, Lori

[Renee]

Hi there!

CC "expert" here, lol.

The album links that were posted above show my pug's CC progression during the worst of it. She no longer has open sores / lesions, and only has very small bumps pop up when she's off her medication long enough for the cortisol to rebound. Can you tell us how the CC was diagnosed? Along the rear is not usually a common spot, unless it has taken over the entire body. CC usually, not always, starts along the back / spine, and then spreads. The only sure way to diagnose it is through biopsy, which my girl did undergo. I found DMSO to be a complete waste ... although there are a few here that felt it was helpful. Also, I did not see improvement until I had lowered my girl's post cortisol below 5ug/dl and kept it there long-term.

I am confused mostly by your girl's lack of appetite, as that is most definitely not a symptom of cushings. Hopefully Marianne can weight in on that, as I believe her cush-pup had the lack of appetite too.

I am concerned, and somewhat questioning, the cushings diagnosis (even though CC can be presumptive in most cases), simply based upon the other issues at hand - thyroid, UTI, stress from the ulcers and eye issues, etc. Cortisol can be elevated for many different reasons, which would result in a false positive for cushings testing, unless those other issues are addressed first.

How much steroid, if any, was in those eye drops? And, was your girl taking any other medications that could have contained steroid? Did the CC pop up before the cushings diagnosis or after?

Please post a timeline of the testing that has been done, and the results of all those tests, so we can help you wade through everything!

[Gatorlmc]

To answer a couple of your questions.


1) I understand that the 40mg is 8x times the normal dosage.
Her numbers were not coming down hence the reason for the increase.
She is being treated by Specialists (AVS in Maitland) not just her regular Vet.
And as stated in my original post, even the Specialists say they have never seen a case like this, highly unusual.
When I first brought her in to see them, they thought she may have been over medicated at 10mg, so they were surprised to see that that dosage had not made a dent in her numbers.

2) yes, the tests are done within 4-5 hours after food and the Vetoryl. They stress this to me prior to every test.
Again, these tests are being performed by the Specialists not her regular vet.

3) No, they have not performed a biopsy for the calcinosis.
At another $450-$500, on top of the well over $5000 I have already spent and continue to spend, that didn't seem like a good use of money. Especially since I am 99.9% sure that is what it is. I will start a photo album.

4) She has had multiple and extensive tests, it is definitely Cushings. She exhibited all of the classic Cushings symptoms.
Excessive drinking and urination, ravenously hungry, pot belly, panting, thinning hair.

5) Abby's eye issues started about 2 1/2 months ago, November 4th to be exact. Her first Cushings diagnosis was in May of last year.

Her eyes and the UTI are a result of her weakened immune system due to the Cushings, and from what I understand it is not unusual for a Cushings dog to also be hypothyroid.

thank you for your help, I do not have all of the numbers but will request them on my next visit.

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome from me too.

You said she did have a ravenous appetite but now is when she won't eat? When did that start exactly in the midst of everything that has been going on?

Is her UTI cleared up now?

It could be that she hasn't responded appropriately to the cushing meds (vetroyl) due to the other things going on in her body that has made her adrenal glands try even harder to produce cortisol. It is the bodies natural reaction to stress, illness, disease etc.

So, if the eyes are healed, the thyroid is now under control, the UTI has been addressed and is cleared up, then maybe she will start responding better to the cushing medications. It would be strange perhaps that her body continues to fight to produce more cortisol even with the medication but I'm throwing it out there as she is by no means text book as your specialist have said.

Another questions is, does she have pituitary or adrenal cushings? Adrenal cushings can be very difficult to get control of and often needs higher doses of medication as the tumor will try to produce no matter what.

I too wouldn't mind seeing the abnormal values on any blood work and cushing test results (ACTH) and what the ultrasound showed. Does she have sludge in gall bladder for instance, as Maltese seem to really be prone to that.

I know we have all asked a lot of questions, it helps us to provide better comments on the situation.

Keeping cc, clean and dry and using a topical antibiotic spray can often be helpful too.

Welcome to the forum

[Gatorlmc]

Answers to the second set of questions. :)

Renee:

1) She did have smaller patches along her spine, she also has white patches underneath her tongue. After looking at your photos, Abby's does not appear to be as severe as yours.

2) There is no doubt it is Cushings

3) There were no steroids in the eye drops. Two antibiotics and plasma.
She has been on no medications containing steroids, that would just exacerbate the issue.

4) The sores popped up after the Cushings diagnosis.

Molly:

1) The lack of appetite started around October. Up to that point she couldn't get enough to eat.

2) It appears that the UTI has cleared up.

3) My regular Vet diagnosed her with Adrenal cushings but when I went to the Specialists they said it was Pituitary.
I was surprised and told them that was not the diagnosis I had been given.
They explained it medically, that the high numbers he was basing his diagnosis on do not necessarily mean it's Adrenal.

[Gatorlmc]

I dug out my paperwork from the the diagnostic tests performed on November 13, 2015

CBC- Severe leukocytosis (WBC 51 K/ul, neut 36.5 K/ul, mono 9.74 K/ul) moderate regenerative anemia (HCT 22.3%, retic 178 K/ul), possible mild auto-agglutination, moderate thrombocytosis (768 K/ul)

Chemistry- Severely elevated liver enzymes (ALP 11236 U/L, ALT 767 U/L, AST 114 U/L, GGT 363 U/L, mild hyperbilirubinemia (1.2 mg/dl), mild hypoalbuminemia (2.0 g/dl), moderate electrolyte abnormalitites (Na 138 mmol/L, K 3.8 mmol/L, CL 100 mmol/L

T4- 0.6 ug/dl

TSH-results pending

Urinalysis- Isosthenuria (USG 1.013), trace glucose, 1+ protein, pyuria, marked bacteria
Urine culture- pending She has been treated for this and it appears to have cleared up.

ACTH stim test- Pre ACTH >50 ug/dL, post- ACTH > 50 ug/dL

Thoracic radiographs- Enlarged heart, interstitial pattern, no pulmonary nodules seen

Abdominal ultrasound- Choleliths, hyperechoic liver with target nodules, enlarged mesenteric lymph nodes, small nephroliths, mild small intestinal wall thickening with increased echogenecity of mucosal layer, bilateral adrenomegaly

Cytology- (liver, lymph node)- results pending there was no cancer

Diagnosis:
Severe corneal ulcers- already under treatment
hyperadrenocorticism- poorly controlled with Vetoryl currently
liver lesions- cytology pending *note: no cancer found
urinary tract infection- culture pending *note:has been treated and appears to have cleared.
regenerative anemia- suspect secondary to previous gastrointestinal bleeding
Decreased T4 level- TSH pending * she was found to be hypothyroid and has responded to treatment

Prognosis: Fair to guarded pending further test results

Abby's abdominal ultrasound revealed that both her adrenal glands were enlarged, which can occur with Trilostane therapy. Her clinical signs are consistent with pituitary-dependent hyperadrenocorticism
Despite being on a relatively high dose of Vetoryl, Abby's ACTH stim test today revealed that her cortisol levels are still extremely high. In light of this we will double her Vetoryl to one capsule every 12 hours.

Abby's urinary tract infection is likely secondary to her Cushing's disease.

Abby's blood work showed she is moderately anemic which is most likely due to her recent gastrointestinal bleeding. Her bone marrow appears to be generating new red blood cells to replace this loss, so we will continue to monitor for now.

Abby's thyroid level was low and as we discussed may be due to hypothyroidism and this may explain her lethargy and decreased appetite, as well as contributing to anemia. *note: as stated before, she has responded well to treatment.


Ok, there are all the numbers. Does this give you guys more insight?

Also, I have now posted a photo album of the progression of Abby's Cushing's.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1058

[Gatorlmc]

I posted Abby's numbers yesterday. I was wondering whether you guys had seen them?

[Budsters Mom]

I did see them Thanks so much. Unfortunately, I am not one of our seasoned experts able to interpret the results. One of them will be coming along shortly. Hang in there. I know how difficult the waiting can be.

Kathy

[Gatorlmc]

Thanks Kathy! :)

[labblab]

Well, in honesty, I confess to dragging my feet on posting because your little Abby is as big a mystery to me as she is to your vets :o. In my decade of time spent on Cushing's forums, I honestly don't believe I have ever seen a dog with BOTH a pre- and post-ACTH level >50. That is a boatload of cortisol being produced!!

Given all the question marks with her treatment response, I endorse your decision to pursue the consultation at UF. The only feeble suggestion I can offer is that perhaps she is a dog who would respond more favorably to Lysodren than to the Vetoryl. Perhaps the adrenal erosion associated with Lysodren treatment would lend itself to better control of hormone production. But as to why/how she is producing so much cortisol in the first place, I do not know...

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Can you post the normal range for the chemistry values? Every one of those liver values look extremely high but different labs might have different ranges.
That ALP of over 11000. Just floors me. Did they say anything about her liver?

Poor Abby. This was so quick of a change in just months really.

I am still inclined to think that get the other things in line and perha the cortisol will respond but as Marianne said that is very high.

So I am wondering about the liver specifically. Was there any sludge in her gallbladder? Maltese can be prone to sludge.

I really am thinking there is more driving that cortisol up than just pituitary Cushing's. We see many cases of Cushing's here every year and Abby is a very worrisome case.

I too might try the UF and see what they think. Take those pictures too. Those really do show the steady progression.

[Gatorlmc]

Thank you Marianne!
That is exactly what the Internal Medicine Specialist said would be our next course of action if her numbers had not significantly improved with the next ACTH stim test, which she is due for next week.

Her numbers have decreased but not to the extent they should have with 35 mg of Vetoryl a day. She has been on 40 mg for about a week and seems stable if not a bit improved.
We went for a nice little walk around the block this afternoon, well more like a trot! :-) I think it felt good for her to get out and stretch her legs, something she could not do just a couple of months ago. She is still quite wobbly due to the luxating patella, but she doesn't let it slow her down! :-)

I have spoken with UF twice in the last couple of days and I was able to get a earlier appointment than we originally had scheduled.
My appointment is in a week, Jan 21st.

Affiliated Veterinary Specialists are going to forward her file and all of her images prior to our visit. I am hoping that even though she has the Specialists stumped that maybe UF has seen this kind of thing before. Keep your fingers crossed for us!

[Gatorlmc]

Sharlene,

I was not certain of the normal ALP levels, so I had to google it. :-)

Yep, Abby's were way off the chart. normal ALP is 23-212 U/L
all of her other chem numbers were off the chart as well.

What they said about the liver:

They did an ultrasound which revealed abnormal lesions and slightly enlarged lymph nodes. They did needle biopsy's of her liver and lymph nodes and thankfully they came back clean. No cancer.

They did not mention sludge in her gall bladder.

[molly muffin]

http://www.2ndchance.info/doghypothyroid.htm.

Take a look at this about skin and coat and other signs about dogs with hypothyroidism. I thought I remembered some of these issues in other dogs with this. Might explain a few things at least.


What Changes Might I See In My Pet's Skin And Haircoat ?

Dogs need an adequate level of thyroid hormone to maintain normal skin and hair. When hormone levels are low, hair growth very slowly - particularly over the lumbar area equally on both sides. The back of the rear legs is also commonly balding.

The pet’s hair coat is often scurfy, flaky and dull. The coat often lacks finer body hairs and undercoat. Your pet's tail may become as bald as a rat’s tail. An important clue pointing to thyroid deficiency is that this hair loss is not itchy as it would be if the pet had fleas , allergic skin or infectious skin disease.

Hypothyroid dogs commonly have excess black pigment in the skin of their groin. This pigment results in a condition similar to one that occurs in humans for other reasons, acanthosis nigricans. Sometimes this pigment is present over much of the body and the skin becomes oily and thickened. Broken toenails and toenail infections are common in hypothyroidism. Your pet's hair coat color may change.

What About Reproductive Problems and Infertility ?

Yes, Female dogs with hypothyroidism often cycle erratically and fail to get pregnant, have small liters or miscarry. It also affects male fertility. Hypothyroid male dogs may have low sperm levels and decreased libido. Pseudopregnancy or false pregnancy with milk flow and abdominal distension is common in these dogs (especially dachshunds). Hypothyroidism should never be corrected for the purpose of breeding these dogs.

Are There Other Signs Of Hypothyroidism I Might Recognize ?

Yes, your pet might not act as bright as it once did. Hypothyroidism affects mental alertness and the ability to learn. You might also notice that your pet is more sensitive to cold and chilly weather.

A slow heart rate, constipation, anemia, muscle weakness and atrophy, nerve disturbances, edema, stunted growth, and slowed clotting of the blood can also be signs of hypothyroidism.

Hypothyroid dogs have more than their fair share of joint pain and swelling and ear and skin infections. You can read about those ear infections here. Lazy behavior – such as increased sleeping, less play activity and easy fatigue can also indicate thyroid disease. It has also been reported that hypothyroid dogs have more “dry eye” disease (keratoconjunctivitis sica).

[Gatorlmc]

Yes,
As mentioned in the diagnosis, she is also hypothyroid. She has been medicated for that since the very first day of testing with the specialists.
Her lethargy has gone away but still thin hair, or should I say very little hair and very thin stature.
the last time they tested her thyroid levels they were normal, so the meds were working. It must just take a little longer to visually see it in her appearance other than her energy level.

[labblab]

Has Abby's actual liver function been checked by performing a bile acids test? That test won't give the cause of any liver abnormality, but it will help tell you how well the liver is performing its job. With those extremely high liver values across the board, I'm just wondering whether her function is impaired at all.

Marianne

[Gatorlmc]

I am not aware of any bile acids test being done at this point. They will be performing a CBC when I go to UF on Thursday. If her enzymes are still that elevated, that may be one of the additional tests they do.

[labblab]

Have they told you in advance whether or not they want you to fast Abby for the appointment? Fasting is not good for a monitoring ACTH test, but I think it's required for a bile acid test and also may be preferred if a chem panel is being done alongside the CBC, which I'm assuming will be the case. So if you don't already know that info about fasting, I think it'd be good to check.

Marianne

[labblab]

Also, upon re-reading your thread, I am focused on Abby's lack of appetite which is unusual in a dog with such high cortisol. Of course, GI inflammation/ulcers could explain this, among other things. But I remember my own dog's specialist telling me that an enlarging pituitary tumor always has to be considered when a Cushpup is inappetent at the same time that cortisol levels are not too low. I don't know whether a macro tumor might also be responsible for the unremitting cortisol production, as well. But it could explain some other problems such as extreme lethargy and inability to walk. Diagnostics for this would involve expensive imaging of the head, but it's one more thought that springs to my mind.

[lulusmom]

Hi Laura and a belated welcome to you and precious Abby.

I have to tell you that as I read your thread, my jaw kept dropping more and more but when I got to the labs, I think it dropped to my chest. Abby may have cushing's but I think that's probably the least of her problems. I think she may have a systemic autoimmune disease that is effecting multiple organs. The one that comes to mind is Systemic Lupus Erythematosus (SLE). Symptoms are many and so are lab and imaging abnormalities. Did Abby have any vaccinations in the last six months? While further studies are needed, there is some evidence that autoimmune problems can occur as a result of adverse reactions to antigens in vaccines. I have an affinity for the Maltese and have shared my life with many of them and do know that they can be highly sensitive to vaccines....actually I tend to recall reading something that said white dogs in general tend to be at higher risk of adverse reactions to vaccines.

SLE is very, very serious and if Abby were my dog, I would talk to the vet asap about doing an antinuclear antibodies (ANA) test. There has only been one other thread where a member presented such a perplexing set of symptoms, which had the staff of a teaching hospital stumped. That thread prompted me to do some research and I kept coming up with SLE. The member asked her vet to do an ANA and it came back positive for SLE. I've included a link to that thread below. I wish she would have given us an update but she never came back after she shared shared the results of the ANA with us. :(

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3196

Glynda

P.S. I forgot to mention that the skin problems you are seeing may look like calcinosis cutis but the areas affected are not the usual pattern we are used to seeing. Neck, back and flanks are more common. Skin issues like the ones you mention are common in lupus.

[labblab]

Wow, that is an interesting thought, Glynda! I gotta agree that there are several aspects of Abby's presentation that seem odd and unusual of Cushing's, such as the enlarged lymph nodes. I suspect there is something else going on, too. But it seems to me that it's hard to square the highly elevated cortisol with a disease process that is instead fueled by an overactive immune system, such as SLE. Since high steroid/hormone levels are instead immunosuppressive, I'm not sure how the two conditions could/would come together. Since you'd treat SLE with steroids, the two conditions seem contradictory, if you will. In looking back at Ribbons' thread, I think she only had very mildly elevated cortisol, and that's how the original Atypical Cushing's diagnosis came about for her. She had some symptoms consistent with Cushing's, but not the high cortisol.

But Abby is definitely a puzzle for sure, and exploring possible immune-mediated issues may indeed be fruitful. I will be so anxious to hear what they have to say at Florida!

[lulusmom]

Marianne, I don't have an explanation as to how two diseases that are the antithesis of each other as it relates to the immune system can be concurrent, but I also can't connect all of Abby's symptoms and profound lab abnormalities as being associated with cushing's....unless the disease has been allowed to progress for so long without treatment that after thousands and thousands of threads, we are now witnessing the full extent of damage that can occur. I'm not sure that is the case and I feel there has to be something much more going on in that little body. Hopefully a new sets of professional eyes can figure it out.

Laura, I forgot to mention two things. First, I want to tell you that Abby is absolutely beautiful. She reminds me of my first Maltese baby. She didn't have cushing's and passed at only 10 years old of sudden kidney failure. The second thing is with pre and post stimulated cortisol levels being off the charts, I would be surprised if Abby didn't have very high blood pressure. Hypertension can cause ocular lesions and a whole lot of other problems so I am wondering if her blood pressure was checked and whether she is on hypertension medication?

Glynda

[Trish]

Hi, I am no cushings expert, but on the ultrasound choleliths (gallstones) are mentioned, they could be impacting the elevated LFTs. Hope you get this mystery sorted out
Trish

[Gatorlmc]

Wow! I go to work and come home to a whole plethora of new information! :)

Marianne,

UF wants her fasting. I called them yesterday and asked the same question you presented. If you want her fasting, then we can't give her food and Vetoryl until after that and then we have to wait 4 hours to take the first blood draw and then another 2 hours for the second. Were they planning on me being there all day? :)

And let me reiterate.....the lack of appetite and inability to walk(very weak and too weak to hold up her luxating patella)
was before I took her to the specialists and at that point she had not been diagnosed with the hypothyroid.

As of today she is mobile and has an appetite. Yesterday we went for a nice long walk/trot.
She now has a more normal appetite, which I may not recognize since it's been so long since she had a "normal" appetite.
After months of having a ravenous appetite and then not wanting to/having the energy to eat. "Normal" eating may be a foreign concept to me at this point. :)

Glynda,

I do not recall what vaccinations she had last year. But I can say that I did not let my vet give her anything after she was diagnosed. And after all that I have learned in the last year, I will not be vaccinating again!

No one has mentioned her having high blood pressure, but surely they will check that at UF and I will insist if they don't have that on the testing plan.
Also, the sores may not be calcinosis cutis, but she seems to be excreting an abundance of calcium. The ophthalmologist has her on EDTA eye drops to help with calcium crystals in her eyes.


Abby is my second Maltese. My first one was Maggie, she was relatively healthy and lived to be 15.
At 13 most people thought she was a puppy!
I never had many problems with my Maggie until her last year.
The last year was hard, she developed dementia, severe arthritis, she didn't see or hear too well towards the end.
Interestingly, I adopted her from someone and had no idea of her lineage.
But with Abby I sought out a top breeder, approved by the American Maltese Assoc.
I was thinking that if I spent a lot money with a great breeder, and they knew what they were doing then she would be healthier, and save me money in the long run. Boy was I ever wrong!!!!!
Even the Specialist said that pure bred dogs are the most unhealthy. :(

[Gatorlmc]

Also, in the beginning Abby displayed all of the classic Cushing's symptoms.
When my Vet couldn't figure it out I diagnosed her myself by googling those symptoms.

Excessive drinking and urination.
Pot Belly
Ravenously hungry
Excessive Panting
Thinning hair

[SandyH]

I am a newbie at Cushings, but unfortunately I am very experienced in autoimmune anemia issues. I have 3 cocker spaniels and lost my first at age 2 to IMHA, Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia. When I saw the HCT (hematacrit) number at 22 and the thrombcenia I just wanted to add some info. Normal HCT for dogs is 37-52ish, so 22 is low so that you should monitor but don't get overly worried unless it drops substantially, most IMHA dogs are in single digits or low teens, my dog's HCT was 7 at diagnosis, I have seen dogs at 0 and recover. Hopefully as you stated the low numbers were from the GI bleeding. Regenerating is very good.

The best advice I can give to monitor this at home is check her gums-severely anemic dogs have very pale, white gums, not pink, so if you notice lethargy/not feeling right check her gums immediately. I check my dogs gums every time they are off, even if they only eat half their dinner!

You can also research about vaccines, overvaccinating causing these autoimmune issues, titers, etc from Dr Jean Dodds vaccination protocols. The other thing I always tell people is never give rabies vaccine with DHLPP vaccine on the same day-space them out. My dogs got all their puppy shots, boosters at age 1, and have been titered since for parvo and distemper since, and all have high protective immunity. Rabies must be given by law every 3 years, but since Abby has a diagnosis of anemia your vet should give you a waiver for that so she would never have to be vaccinated again which could trigger autoimmune response.

Hope some of this info helps with the anemia issue.

[Gatorlmc]

Thank you Sandy! Finding this site has been incredibly informative! Too bad I didn't find it earlier!
But I have now and I want to thank everyone so much for your support and concern! I'm so grateful!

[molly muffin]

Hi Susan. Okay Abby's appointment with the specupialist was on the 21 st. So. What did they say? How is Abby doing? How is her appetite and mobility? Has that continued to improve?

[Gatorlmc]

The University of Florida says the problem is the Vetoryl. On Vetoryl some dogs get worse rather than better. They will loss their appetite and become more lethargic. Which is exactly what happened every time we increased her dosage, she became more lethargic and ate less.
They recommend stopping the Vetoryl for 30 days and then start Lysodren. (which is the exact course of action you guys said she may need:-) They believe that once under control she will return to relatively normal, regain mobility, regrow hair, become more youthful and play more. :-)
Every day Abby has been off the Vetoryl she has become more mobile and has a better appetite. :-) The down side is she is drinking and urinating more.

In the mean time to help manage her symptoms, I have put her back on a holistic herbal from petwellbeing.com called Adrenal Harmony Gold. I had her on this prior to starting the "pet nutrition response testing"

I contacted the Vet out of Canada that created all of their products to get a new dosage recommendation and when she told me since I was already at UF Vet hospital, then I should make an appointment with Dr Justin Shmalberg, the head on their integrative medicine department.
He is on petwellbeing's advisory board and a fantastic integrative medicine Doctor. Small world!
So, since I have 30 days before starting Lysodren, I have made an appointment with him for monday Feb 8th.

[molly muffin]

I'm glad they have a plan for you.
Lysodren works entirely different than vetroyl, so maybe it will work better for her.

Here is the lysodren instructions. We recommend they be printed off and even put on the refrigerator or some place easily seen and referred to.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181

As a go between of the vetroyl and lysodren, it might not be bad, but in general, we have never had dog taking adrenal harmony or cushex that hasn't ended up needing treatment of regular medications, so we don't advocate for them as a replacement medication. But stop gap is different, which is what I'm assuming you are thinking of?

I'd really be interested to hear what Dr Shmalberg has to say. (if it has dandelion in it, be aware that can increase urination frequency as it is a diuretic and can increase potassium). I'm always a little leery of that in cushings pups.

[Gatorlmc]

The creator's of these herbal products are Vets, and being familiar with each illness I'm sure they have taken all the contraindications into mind when coming up with a formula for each condition.
Here is the list of ingredients in Adrenal Harmony Gold.


Fresh Ashwagandha root (Withania somniferum): A primary adaptogen in this formula, Ashwagandha assists the adrenal glands directly to respond normally and produce healthy amounts of cortisol. This is a well-known herb for helping the body's stress levels and supporting normal, restful sleep.

Holy Basil leaf (Ocimum sanctum): Also called Tulsi, Holy Basil is a gentle adaptogen for supporting the adrenal glands. Of key importance, adaptogens will neither cause the body to relax nor become stimulated, necessarily. Rather, their action is to assist the body to adapt as needed and bring it back into balance. For that reason, adaptogens are used for a variety of reasons when normal adrenal function is desired.

Fresh Turmeric rhizome (Curcuma longa): One of the best antioxidant herbs available, Turmeric also supports liver health. Turmeric can be difficult for the body to absorb. Our extraction method using fresh, organic Turmeric is an extremely potent liquid extract, much stronger than a simple glycerin extraction and captures all of the useful constituents of this herb, including curcumin and other curcuminoids.

Bacopa herb (Bacopa monnieri): Bacopa exhibits uses both as an adaptogen and as an antioxidant. It has also been used for stress and is said to generally contribute to healthy moods and cognitive function.

Sarsaparilla root (Smilax officinalis): A traditional herb of the south western United States, Sarsaparilla has a long-standing use for helping the body to normally excrete excess toxic materials through the lymphatic system. It has also been used to support liver function and healthy blood pressure levels.

Astragalus root (Astragalus membranaceous): Another popular "adaptogen", Astragalus helps the body's normal ability to adapt to stress. It also contains polysaccharides, constituents that assist the body's normal immune response to fight off bacteria and viruses.

Milk Thistle seed (Silybum marianum): A gentle and effective herb for normal liver function, Milk Thistle supports the liver's metabolization of drugs and toxins for excretion. Another function of the liver is to denature (take apart) circulating hormones, thereby helping to keep the balance of hormones in the body.

Blessed Thistle flower (Cnicus benedictus): Blessed or Holy Thistle has similar uses as Milk Thislte for liver support. Additionally, it has been shown to exhibit support for the immune system and digestion.

Chaste Tree berry (Vitex agnus-castus): Used for its gentle, tonic action on the anterior pituitary, Vitex is an amphoteric herb, meaning it will help maintain normal hormonal levels, rather than cause them to go higher or lower. Vitex is included in this formula for its affect on the pituitary's action in adrenal hormone regulation.

Prickly Ash bark (Zanthoxylum americanum): Used by many First Nations communities at one time, the bark of the Prickly Ash tree has been termed an "alterative", meaning that it will help support normal flow of lymphatic circulation. It also helps maintain normal arterial and capillary circulation.

[molly muffin]

Hmm, it must have been cushex or another one I was thinking of that had dandilion in it.

I use milk thistle in support of liver and of course Turmeric has been advocated for awhile now.

I don't remember the exact answer was, but we do contact anyone who puts out something for cushings for more information. I was sure that we had contacted petwellness too. We like to have as much info to provide to anyone looking for answers as we possibly can. I'll have to go back and check with some of the others.

I'm not saying its bad but just those we've had that have tried various things have ended up needing further medication. The same is true of the chinese herbal, yet I know dogs on it, whose adrenal tumors have not grown or become invasive and many use it along side trilostane.

[Harley PoMMom]

Glynda, one of our Administrators did contact Adrenal Harmony Gold and talked with Dr. Elaine, now I'm not bashing anyone here, I just wanted to share as much information that we have concerning this product:
I saw a post on facebook that prompted me to contact the manufacturer of Adrenal Harmony Gold to ask them about their claims....claims which I was pretty sure were bogus. Luckily I was able to chat with a Dr. Elaine on their site and pose my questions there. The only nice thing I can say about our exchange is that she was honest in her responses. I copied our exchange below:

[Glynda] Manufacturer claims that Adrenal Harmony Gold's "Adaptogens" are a classification of herbs considered to support the adrenals, helping the body adapt naturally to stressors and produce normal, healthy levels of cortisol. Unlike drugs, adaptogens will not stimulate or depress adrenal function but, rather, help the adrenals normalize their hormone production. This is a rather startling revelation and I'd like to know if the manufacturer has done sanctioned clinical trials, using the usual acth stimulation tests, UC:CR, LDDST, etc to support the claim that this product normalizes adrenal function.

[Elaine] Hello, thank you for contacting Customer Support. My name is Elaine. Please give me a moment to review your question.

[Elaine] No there have been no clinical trials done on this product as of yet

[Glynda] Then how can you possibly make claims that are unsupported by credible evidence?

[Elaine] Our products are used for support and have proved very successful, we have an overall return rate of less than 10%

Elaine then quickly ended our session before I could tell her that a return rate of only 10% is woefully inadequate proof of safety and efficacy. I also wanted to tell her that I must have missed the part where the manufacturer got a conscience and told their audience that Adrenal Harmony Gold doesn't really normalize adrenal function but because they have absolutely no idea what their product does, nor whether it is safe, they recommend it as an adjunct treatment with conventional drugs that actually have been proven effective in reducing cortisol levels. This is the same outrageous response I got when I called this same company out for their false advertising of Cushex Drops. This is probably the same crap in a bottle with a different name and Dr. Elaine can't possibly be a doctor of anything. This company is shameless and I remain dumbfounded as to why there are so many great reviews for this product.

After having said all that, I admit that I know nothing about Chinese herbs so perhaps there may be something in this formula that does make a dog feel better in some way but this company is apparently unable to explain why that is. Argh!

I highly recommend that members do their own research and ask questions about any product being touted as an effective treatment for cushing's. The common claim among most of these online companies is that they all claim that their product normalizes adrenal function. Some are even bold enough to claim it is effective for cushings and addison's. I can only assume that they are either the most ignorant bunch of people on the planet or they are the most devious and assume that most people are completely ignorant and desperate enough to believe their outrageous claims. Unfortunately, that is the most likely scenario. I was once completely ignorant and desperate after having received the cushing's diagnosis so I get it. We pet owners with precious cushdogs are the perfect target market.

Glynda

[Gatorlmc]

I saw that post when I did a google search.

The first time I contacted them (petwellbeing) back in May they gave me the personal email to Dr Jan Huntingford and that is who I have dealt with directly. I don't see a Dr. Elaine listed, so not sure who she is?
Dr Jan is one of 5 Doctors on the advisory board of pet well being, along with Dr Shmalberg (Chief of Integrative Medicine at UF) and 3 others that are either in private practice or Professors.

Here are Dr Jan's credentials:

Dr. Janice Huntingford - PetWellbeing Advisor

Janice Huntingford, DVM, has been in veterinary practice for 28 years and has founded two veterinary clinics since receiving her Doctor of Veterinary Medicine at the Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph. She has studied extensively in both conventional and holistic modalities.

[lulusmom]

Hi Laura. I am the admin that cut and pasted my conversation with a Pet Wellbeing chat person. I have contacted Pet Wellbeing three times asking whether they can support their claims with credible studies. Lori has posted one of those communication above but I would like to post the first and the last so that any members who may see this have all the facts. My first inquiry was sent to Pet Wellbeing when Adrenal Harmony Gold was called Supraglan, asking them if they had any credible evidence by way of formal clinical trials that support their claims and prove Supraglan's efficacy in treating cushing's. All I can say is that they were honest in their response:


Unfortunately no scientific tests or trials have been conducted on this product to support the claims you inquired below about. The items we offer on www.petwellbeing.com are not drugs or medicines, but rather all natural herbal alternatives. Please be aware that these products are not guaranteed to cure or treat all animals, as each individual animal and their situation's are different.

I was able to see where Dr. Janice Huntingford is an advisor for Pet Wellbeing. Their site offers an online chat option to "Ask Dr. Jan" which I just did. This was not Dr. Jan and the answers I received were absolutely unacceptable. I was astounded that this person actually told me it would be fine to switch my dog with diabetes to Adrenal Harmony Gold. This company is egregious and I am shocked that Dr. Jan is okay with this kind of ignorant advice being given to the public. Here is a copy of our conversation that just took place:


[Lou] I have two dog with cushing's, both currently well controlled with Vetoryl. I am very interested in learning more about Adrenal Harmony Gold. Vetoryl is very expensive but it is also a scary drug so I would like to know if I could safely switch my dogs to Adrenal Harmony Gold? Has this product been tested and have results proven that Adrenal Harmony Gold actually lowers cortisol? If so, are those studies available to the public or only veterinary professionals? Thank you.
[Damara] Hello, thank you for contacting Customer Support. How can I assist you today?
[Lou] I have two dog with cushing's, both currently well controlled with Vetoryl. I am very interested in learning more about Adrenal Harmony Gold. Vetoryl is very expensive but it is also a scary drug so I would like to know if I could safely switch my dogs to Adrenal Harmony Gold? Has this product been tested and have results proven that Adrenal Harmony Gold actually lowers cortisol? If so, are those studies available to the public or only veterinary professionals? Thank you.
[Damara] Yes you can make a switch. The Adrenal Harmony Gold is a great alternative. Our Vet uses the products in her own clinic and we do have a panel of professionals and herbalists that go over the ingredients to ensure they will benefit for Cushings. It helps the adrenal function, including cortisol levels. It also helps with symptoms associated.
[Damara] The ingredients have been researched and studied for 100s of years but we have not done a clinical stufy
[Damara] Sorry study*
[Lou] So you can't tell me for sure that your product will maintain my dogs' cortisol levels where they are? This is important because one of my dogs has diabetes as well which was horribly difficult to control without lowering cortisol.
[Damara] Oh sorry, yes, it helps with cortisol levels.
[Damara] Here is a list of ingredients to show what it does in detail:http://www.petwellbeing.com/products...ds#ingredients
[Lou] I'm sorry. I guess I'm not following you because you say it helps with cortisol levels but I don't know what that means. I pay hundreds of dollars every three months for blood tests that show where my dogs' cortisol levels are. Has your company done those blood tests on dogs to make sure your product does the same thing as Vetoryl? I really need a bit more assurances. Can you point me to something more definitive than a list of ingredients?
[Lou] I don't mean to be a pain but Cushing's scares me to death and I know it's serious. I've never given my dogs herbs or other stuff so I hope you understand.
[Damara] I'm not sure what else I can tell you Lou. I'm sorry. I guess what I mean is it helps balance the cortisol levels. Like I said before, we have not run these tests as the ingredients have been used for 100s of years. Our panel of experts are trained with these herbs and remedies. We would never using anything that could not help or is harmful for your pet.
[Lou] Thank you for your time, Damara.
[Damara] You're welcome
So not only does Pet Wellbeing believe that a return rate of only 10% is proof that Adrenal Harmony Gold reduces cortisol, we now have Damara's word that 100 years of use of these Chinese herbs and panel of unknown experts precludes the need for those pesky tests like an acth stimulation test that could actually prove that Adrenal Harmony Gold reduces cortisol.

Laura, my intent here is not to discourage you from using any treatment that you decide is best for your dog. As a matter of fact, if I had a very senior dog that I felt was at or nearing his/her life expectancy, I may just give Adrenal Harmony a try to see if it might help alleviate symptoms. However, my first cushdog was only three years old at diagnosis and there is no way I would except Pet Wellbeings word that their product works without proof. My aim is to merely educate people that companies like Pet Wellbeing are marketing products that have not been tested in any way shape or form for safety and efficacy.

[Gatorlmc]

I am not discounting the research you have done in the past and the conversation you just encountered.

My point was that I had a much different experience and it is only fair to show both sides of a company and their representatives.

I had a conversation with Dr Jan through her email, not the "chat with Dr Jan link"

Back in May of 2015 after using Adrenal Harmony for a couple of weeks with some improvement but not as much improvement as I would have liked, I contacted petwellbeing and they gave me Dr Jan's personal email, stating that it may take 24-48hrs to get a response from her. (my vet originally thought she had adrenal dependent cushing's)

The questions I asked her were this:

"Today the tests revealed that it was definitely cushings but also that it was the more rare adrenal dependent cushings. My vet believes that in the case of the adrenal dependent she needs more aggressive care such as Vetoryl.

I would like your opinion as well.

One question is, how would you treat this in order to get the best result possible, short and long term?

And if I am to switch her to the Vetoryl, how long would she have to be off the Adrenal Harmony gold before starting the medication?

Thank you for your time,"


And this was her response verbatim:

"Hi Laura
Adrenal dependent is more difficult to treat. You may have some success with Adrenal Harmony but it is difficult to know because it is not a common presentation. I would try the Adrenal Harmony to see if it makes a difference--if not go with Vetoryl. 24 hours is all you need to be off the herbal before starting the medication
Best,
Dr Jan"


So, you see, even Dr Jan stated that it may not be the best course of treatment.

I will print out your conversation with Damara and take it to Dr Shmalberg when I see him on Feb 8th.

At this point I have not made a decision to try Adrenal Harmony only. I needed some sort of help managing Abby's symptoms for the next 30 days. Last night she woke me up 3 times to take her out, this after only 1 week of off the Vetoryl.

I can not go at that pace for 30 days, I need rest and so does she. I especially need rest because what I do for a living requires extreme concentration and steady hands.

I do appreciate everyone trying to help and make sure I am not "swindled" by some miracle tonic that does not work.

But as stated earlier, it's only fair to give both the negative and the positive encounters with a company. (petwellbeing)

[Squirt's Mom]

Don't worry about the humans and which of them you choose to believe, worry about your baby's side - she is ALL that matters here. (Tho if I were to choose the human to believe it would be Glynda, not someone who is more than likely making money off the products they promote.) And we are deeply concerned that there is MUCH more going on with her than Cushing's. ;)

[Joan2517]

Hmm, it must have been cushex or another one I was thinking of that had dandilion in it.

I use milk thistle in support of liver and of course Turmeric has been advocated for awhile now.

I don't remember the exact answer was, but we do contact anyone who puts out something for cushings for more information. I was sure that we had contacted petwellness too. We like to have as much info to provide to anyone looking for answers as we possibly can. I'll have to go back and check with some of the others.

I'm not saying its bad but just those we've had that have tried various things have ended up needing further medication. The same is true of the chinese herbal, yet I know dogs on it, whose adrenal tumors have not grown or become invasive and many use it along side trilostane.
Hi Sharlene,

How do you use the Tumeric? I saw something on Facebook about a milk or something that you make with it, so I bought the ingredients and of course, now I can't find the recipe? I want to start Lena on some holistic stuff that might help....

Thanks,
Joan

[molly muffin]

Joan, I don't use the turmeric for molly but I know others who use it, especially in support of some dogs with cancer. Turmeric can be good for inflammation though too.

I do use milk thistle and sam-e for liver support, glucosomine with msm for joint support. A probiotic foriflora when she has any kind of gastro upset in addition t a bit of pumpkin for diarrhea.

Supplements I agree can be helpful, just used correctly in the right quantities. I see that Amazing Nutritionals is making a dog turmeric dog supplement now.

[Gatorlmc]

Don't worry about the humans and which of them you choose to believe, worry about your baby's side - she is ALL that matters here. (Tho if I were to choose the human to believe it would be Glynda, not someone who is more than likely making money off the products they promote.) And we are deeply concerned that there is MUCH more going on with her than Cushing's. ;)

Thank you for that, Abby is the most important and making her comfortable and healthy is my only goal.

Also, I'm not sure if you read back in the Thread, but I took her to University of Florida small animal hospital, they took the information from the 2 months with the Specialists, then did additional test themselves. Their conclusion, it is only Cushing's that is not controlled with the Vetoryl. They said some dogs do not respond to it and it the longer they are on it, they become more lethargic and have less of an appetite. Which is exactly what happened with her. They want to take her off the Vetoryl for 30 days (2 weeks if necessary) and then start Lysodren. Once her Cushing's is under control they believe she will return to normal most of the time. Not only clinically but subjectively as well. (more youthful and playful, etc....)
The Internal Medicine professor there said they saw a dog a couple of months ago in worse condition than Abby, who was also not responding to the Vetoryl. Now that dog has been on Lysodren for a few months and has returned to normal.

That is what we are looking forward to, it's been a long hard fought battle, but we will prevail in the end.

[Gatorlmc]

Hi Sharlene,

How do you use the Tumeric? I saw something on Facebook about a milk or something that you make with it, so I bought the ingredients and of course, now I can't find the recipe? I want to start Lena on some holistic stuff that might help....

Thanks,
Joan

I have used raw goats milk from http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/16/id/66 and http://answerspetfood.com/additional.html

Both have turmeric and a lot of other helpful things added.

It helps with a lot of things not just tummy issues.

Benefits of Raw Milk
“Pasteurized milk from confinement dairies can cause much sickness and many lives.” states Dr. Ron Schmid in his book, The Untold Story of Milk, Green Pastures, Contented Cows and Raw Dairy Foods. Raw milk from pasture fed goats and cows is a life giving, healing food.
”Raw Milk Cures Many Diseases” was an article written in 1929 by the founder of the Mayo Clinic, John E Crewe, M.D.

This article documents raw milk tackling chronic ailments including:

Brain and nerve disorders
Asthma
Neuralgia
Fluid retention
Liver disease
Heavy metal poisoning
Malnutrition
Kidney disease
Kidney stones
Diabetes
Gastric disturbances
Obesity
Colitis
Irritable bowel syndrome
Poor digestion
Diarrhea
Constipation
Heart disease

[Joan2517]

Thanks, Sharlene....

[Joan2517]

Thank you, Laura and Abby...do you just give it to drink? or mix in with food?

[Gatorlmc]

Thank you, Laura and Abby...do you just give it to drink? or mix in with food?

What ever way you can get them to take it. :)