Advice from Weight Training?

[jrepac]

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/jalali/cortisol.htm

I happened to come across this...anti-cortisol strategies among muscle builders/weight trainers....have to wonder if any of this is (or would be) effective among canines? Interestingly, I also came across a board where weight trainers discussed use of melatonin as a protocol [but were concerned about it affecting their fertility!]

Any thoughts on what is said here?

Jeff

[jrepac]

Somewhat related to this, another cortisol lowering herb...(supposedly) is Rhodiola Rosea, which you can read about here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodiola_rosea

It actually sounds like it functions in a way similar to Selegiline (Anipryl)....

I came across a medical board in which a few folks were taking selegiline + rhodiola rosea as a way to lower cortisol and stress levels.

http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20060909/msgs/686274.html

Interesting stuff...anyone heard/seen anything like this??

[AlisonandMia]

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/jalali/cortisol.htm

I happened to come across this...anti-cortisol strategies among muscle builders/weight trainers....have to wonder if any of this is (or would be) effective among canines? Interestingly, I also came across a board where weight trainers discussed use of melatonin as a protocol [but were concerned about it affecting their fertility!]

Any thoughts on what is said here?

Jeff


I think it would be pretty ineffective in dealing with the huge amounts of cortisol involved in Cushing's.

I don't know exactly where these weight-training guys are coming from but I think there is quite a bit of pseudo-science and lay-supposition (and the odd maverick MD) in that sphere and most of the information about hormones etc. coming from that sort of area is probably pretty suspect. I suspect they are figuring that if anabolic steroids (like testosterone and similar synthetic hormones) are their "friend" in pursuing their body building aims then catabolic hormones (like cortisol) must be their "enemy". However with no cortisol they quite literally wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning much less lift any weights...

Any heavy loading the soft-tissues of a cushingoid dog (or human for that matter) could be very risky - Cushing's dogs are very prone to blowing out their cruciate ligaments because of the soft-tissue weakening (catabolic) effects of cortisol.

Alison

[StarDeb55]

I can verify, along with several other members, about Cushpups blowing cruciate ligaments. Barkley blew one that was repaired, then re-ruptured it, 6 weeks post-op. The abnormal pre-op labs are what put us on the path to a Cush diagnosis. I'm almost certain that John's(Roxee's Dad), Roxee, has also blown an ACL. I know I've seen enough members in this group with dogs who have blown ACLs, that if I ever have another dog blow an ACL, the next step is going to be a Cushing's diagnostic work-up.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

I'm almost certain that John's(Roxee's Dad), Roxee, has also blown an ACL.

Confirming Debbie's statement and excellent memory.:)

[jrepac]

Yes, my Aussie blew both cruciate ligaments at 6yrs of age, in succession (she is 12 now); perhaps a precursor to Cushings? Re: the weightlifters, I was curious if anyone had come across a similar line of thinking, eg. using some of these supplements to minimize/counteract cortisol? [like melatonin and L-glutamine]. Yes, they would certainly need SOME cortisol to function, right? They make it sound like they want 0 cortisol!

hhhmm maybe we need to get the cushpups weightlifting...THAT would be interesting...:rolleyes:

[StarDeb55]

Not to be a killjoy, but until there is some type of scientific study done on the use of these types of supplements in canines to prove both safety & effectiveness, most owners & vets would probably hesitate to use them.

Debbie

[jrepac]

well, melatonin is already being used, per advice of UTK......I'm not aware of any clinical trials having been done for that....wondering if anyone has tried (or been told to try) any other supplements of this nature....aside from those oriented toward liver health (sam-e, milk thistle, etc)... some of these things get used first...then researched later, as shocking as that sounds....

[AlisonandMia]

Yes, I think clinical trials have been done on melatonin and lignans - by UTK. And yes, things do get used and then tested but many people are not happy to experiment on their pets.

One potential problem with using supplements that seem to be safe in humans is that just occasionally there is something that is safe for the human body but really dangerous to the canine body - like chocolate and onions for example. So even if something does appear to be safe (or at least not obviously lethal) for people, giving it to a dog is still taking a chance.

To my way of thinking when melatonin and lignans (or any other herbal/natural substance that may be effective) are used with the intention of altering hormonal function then they are medications, not supplements - notwithstanding that they are naturally-occurring substances marketed as "supplements" and sold over-the-counter in health-food stores in the US. Here in Australia (and many other countries) melatonin is only available on prescription (from either a doctor or a vet) and so is not regarded as a "supplement" at all! In fact I think here it has been described as "a dangerous hormone" which I guess it could be if abused in large amounts. I see a supplement as being something that is used to correct a deficiency - for example I take a vitamin D3 supplement as I don't get enough sun-light. Something what may be a supplement in normal amounts can become a drug (or even a poison) if taken in large quantities.

Alison

[StarDeb55]

You may want to read Dr. Jack Oliver's paper, Steroid Profiles in the Diagnosis of Canine Adrenal Disorders." In that paper, among many other things discussed, is a very thorough explanation of the biochemical pathways of hormone production within the adrenal gland, along with the non-adrenal production of estradiol. After that explanation, he goes on to explain how melatonin works in these biochemical pathways including the following:


Melatonin. Results of in vitro cell culture (human H295R adrenocortical
carcinoma cells) studies in our lab55 revealed that both 21-hydroxylase and aromatase
enzymes were inhibited by melatonin. Also, in dogs with adrenal disease that are treated
with melatonin, and repeat adrenal steroid panels are done, cortisol levels are consistently
reduced, and estradiol levels are variably reduced.29 Inhibition of the 21-hydroxylase
enzyme would lower cortisol levels, and inhibition of the aromatase enzyme would lower
estradiol levels. Estradiol levels were decreased in a prior study of dogs treated with
melatonin.31 Results of in vitro studies with human MCF-7 breast cancer cells also
revealed that melatonin inhibited aromatase enzyme, which resulted in reduced estradiol
levels.56 Melatonin treatment for cases of mild adrenal disease in dogs may be effective,
and particularly in cases where sex steroids are increased.


I think you can see from the above that melatonin & it's action on the associated hormones have been fairly extensively studied.

Debbie

[ventilate]

Nike tore her ACLs she was 7 or 8, she tore one then was out of her flexable cast for 2 weeks then tore her other one. Her labs were fine at that point but it does make you think doesn't it?
Sharon