Baileys mommy

[baileysmommmy]

Hi - new to this group looking forwarding to reading and learning...my Boxer Bailey is 8 1/2 and was diagnosed in early May. Have been treating her natural so far....she goes back to the vet for a blood test early July. from there we will decide which way to go....have been reading, researching since may - this is a terrible disease!

[molly muffin]

Welcome to the forum.

What are Bailey's symptoms?

Can you tell us what test have been done and what abnormal (high or low) values are? Like for instance with many cush pups, you will see elevated liver enzymes. (ALT/ALKP)

Did you have an LDDS or ACTH to diagnose cushings?

Any questions you might have we are here to answer. It is good to be knowledgeable and well read on the disease itself and the treatments and protocols before making decisions.

welcome again

[Squirt's Mom]

Welcome!

When you say you are "treating natural", can you tell us what that means? What you are using - herbs, TCM, etc?

[baileysmommmy]

Hi - Bailey has the thirst, the urination and the panting. I did regular blood test that showed her liver was high and then we did the 8 hour test and ultrasound. I started her on Chinese mushroom , flaxseed, adrenal drops, omega 3, coconut oil and also turmeric golden paste. We are on day 2 of milk thistle. We also started cooking her meals. Adding kelp and dandelion root. She has since lost about 5lbs, stop panting. She is not drinking as much and has never urinated in the house. I do see that she is more hungry but does leave food in her bowl. I will be bringing her to the vet in 2 weeks for another blood test and will go from there. I will also ask for copies of the blood tests. Oh and I will go buy lignan flax as I heard that was good as well. This has been very overwhelming for me. I have a hard time sleeping. Am also on the internet trying to learn, research....so much information good and bad - it really confuses you on what the do. I am afraid of making the wrong decisions.

[Squirt's Mom]

As far as I am aware, none of the things you are using will address the enemy of Cushing's - excess cortisol. They may help with the signs, panting, drinking and such, but they may also make some of them worse, like urination (Dandelion).

THE most important thing in trying the "natural" route is to keep checking the cortisol via an ACTH. If that cortisol is not responding and lowering back to normal ranges, you will need to make a decision concerning the traditional treats we know work on cortisol. Are you working with a Holistic vet or just winging it?

[baileysmommmy]

Hi - she gets very little dandelion. But yes I will be checking her levels and am planning on starting her on meds first week of august when I start vacation. I want to be home with her just in case.

[Squirt's Mom]

Again, are you working with a Holistic vet or winging it on the natural stuff?

[baileysmommmy]

Again, are you working with a Holistic vet or winging it on the natural stuff?

sorry must have missed that question....winging it from everything I learned plus a friend of mine works for a natural product company and we asked the specialist there for help. Bailey goes to the vet Monday night for cortisol level blood test

[Wrighton]

We give our Icy ligand, but we couple it with melatonin. Should that be added? Perhaps one of the more experienced members could respond. We are using the University of Tennessee suggestion for the brands. Our internist says some brands do nothing.
Gail

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, that is what I was afraid of. Holistic approaches are NOT benign. Herbs are drugs in their own right and if misused can cause a whole host of problems, making Cushing's look like a walk in the park. ;) Working with a "natural product company" is HIGHLY risky for your baby when trying to manage a disease like Cushing's - or any other disease for that matter. ;) Please, please, please, for your baby's sake, get with a vet, Holistic or traditional, but get with a vet.

Just so you know, I use herbs, supplements, and diets with my babies to help treat their various health issues as well as for myself. I have been studying herbs for 5 years now and have a passing interest in canine nutrition. I have no formal training but do take online courses all the time to learn more and work with some experienced herbalists. I make most of the herbal meds we use and many of the plants used I harvest from the wild. So I am not speaking out of fear of "natural" approaches but rather from a position of understanding what these approaches can do in the right hands.....and the harm they can cause in the wrong hands. One should no more wing it with "natural" approaches than one should wing it with pharmaceuticals. So I am *not* one to say Holistic approaches cannot work - I know they can when used correctly. BUT I also know they are not always cure-alls and often an integrated approach is needed especially when dealing with something like Cushing's.

And just FYI - never, ever, for any reason whatsoever, no matter what anyone tells you, use Essential oils on your baby in any shape, form, or fashion. EOs are the volatile oils extracted from plants and are the MOST toxic way to use plant matter. EOs do have a role in herbal medicine but that role is nothing like the MLM companies tout - companies like YoungLiving tell people to use EOs for everything. They tell us to drink them, to put them full strength on our skin, on our children and pets - all of which is dangerous and serves on purpose only....to make money for the MLM. ;) There is a liver enzyme needed to process the toxicity of EOs; dogs have very little of this enzyme, cats have *none*. By the time you notice there is a problem, organ failure has probably already begun and may not be reversible. I don't know that this "natural product company" is telling you to use EOs or includes EOs in their products but many of them do these days so I wanted to caution you about them.

[baileysmommmy]

Ok, that is what I was afraid of. Holistic approaches are NOT benign. Herbs are drugs in their own right and if misused can cause a whole host of problems, making Cushing's look like a walk in the park. ;) Working with a "natural product company" is HIGHLY risky for your baby when trying to manage a disease like Cushing's - or any other disease for that matter. ;) Please, please, please, for your baby's sake, get with a vet, Holistic or traditional, but get with a vet.

Just so you know, I use herbs, supplements, and diets with my babies to help treat their various health issues as well as for myself. I have been studying herbs for 5 years now and have a passing interest in canine nutrition. I have no formal training but do take online courses all the time to learn more and work with some experienced herbalists. I make most of the herbal meds we use and many of the plants used I harvest from the wild. So I am not speaking out of fear of "natural" approaches but rather from a position of understanding what these approaches can do in the right hands.....and the harm they can cause in the wrong hands. One should no more wing it with "natural" approaches than one should wing it with pharmaceuticals. So I am *not* one to say Holistic approaches cannot work - I know they can when used correctly. BUT I also know they are not always cure-alls and often an integrated approach is needed especially when dealing with something like Cushing's.

And just FYI - never, ever, for any reason whatsoever, no matter what anyone tells you, use Essential oils on your baby in any shape, form, or fashion. EOs are the volatile oils extracted from plants and are the MOST toxic way to use plant matter. EOs do have a role in herbal medicine but that role is nothing like the MLM companies tout - companies like YoungLiving tell people to use EOs for everything. They tell us to drink them, to put them full strength on our skin, on our children and pets - all of which is dangerous and serves on purpose only....to make money for the MLM. ;) There is a liver enzyme needed to process the toxicity of EOs; dogs have very little of this enzyme, cats have *none*. By the time you notice there is a problem, organ failure has probably already begun and may not be reversible. I don't know that this "natural product company" is telling you to use EOs or includes EOs in their products but many of them do these days so I wanted to caution you about them.

thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it. I am going to the vet tomorrow and will discuss vetoryl and will be advising everything I have been giving my dogs. I already made a list to show the vet. I do not use EO's on my dogs or humans in the house. Would love your input on what u are giving ur dogs?

[Squirt's Mom]

My cush baby passed last year - from old age, not the disease. ;) I used a myriad of herbs and supplements plus a home cooked diet designed for her by a canine nutritionist. She had elevated intermediate hormones so flax lignans and melatonin were part of her treatment regime. The other things I used were not to address her Cushing's but other conditions like arthritis, anxiety with storms, liver support and mental acuity. I have 5 babies now, all special needs and they all get herbs from time to time as needed. One of my fosters, a male, has a heart condition and I make a heart formula for him. One of them has Colitis and when she has a flare I use Slippery Elm Bark. I make a nervine tea for three of them when storms or fireworks are expected. I personally prefer an integrated or complimentary approach with my babies for the most part. So they have both pharmaceutical meds and "natural" meds. ;)

Too often when we venture out into the "natural" medicine world we start to think anything that is not "natural" is bad for us, and in some cases that is certainly true. But, in my mind, science and modern medicine should not be eschewed - it should be used wisely and cautiously. Just as should herbs, supplement, and food - wisely and cautiously. For me, it became very important that I learn about the things that were recommended; learn the plants, their potential both positive and negative, the extraction processes, and how to harvest then use what I had gathered. And I quickly learned this is a life-time endeavor...and I am quite OLD! :D I don't have time to learn even 1/10th of what is known about this fascinating world.

[baileysmommmy]

My cush baby passed last year - from old age, not the disease. ;) I used a myriad of herbs and supplements plus a home cooked diet designed for her by a canine nutritionist. She had elevated intermediate hormones so flax lignans and melatonin were part of her treatment regime. The other things I used were not to address her Cushing's but other conditions like arthritis, anxiety with storms, liver support and mental acuity. I have 5 babies now, all special needs and they all get herbs from time to time as needed. One of my fosters, a male, has a heart condition and I make a heart formula for him. One of them has Colitis and when she has a flare I use Slippery Elm Bark. I make a nervine tea for three of them when storms or fireworks are expected. I personally prefer an integrated or complimentary approach with my babies for the most part. So they have both pharmaceutical meds and "natural" meds. ;)

Too often when we venture out into the "natural" medicine world we start to think anything that is not "natural" is bad for us, and in some cases that is certainly true. But, in my mind, science and modern medicine should not be eschewed - it should be used wisely and cautiously. Just as should herbs, supplement, and food - wisely and cautiously. For me, it became very important that I learn about the things that were recommended; learn the plants, their potential both positive and negative, the extraction processes, and how to harvest then use what I had gathered. And I quickly learned this is a life-time endeavor...and I am quite OLD! :D I don't have time to learn even 1/10th of what is known about this fascinating world.

wow you are a very special person to take care of special need dogs. bless your soul

[baileysmommmy]

good evening....well vet said she is doing good...I am new at all of this so here it is

May 20 her liver levels were 1208ul today they are 832ul 23 - 212 which is the ALP

Cortisol basal is 104 nmol/l

Hoping this is good!

Vet said she does not even look like a cushings dog and said her fur is beautiful

We go back in a month.....any thoughts?

[labblab]

You'll see that I've merged your new post about Bailey's test results into your original thread. We try to keep all info about a pup consolidated into a single thread so we can more easily track the history and treatment. ;)

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I think it is great that her ALKP is coming down and she is looking very well.

Did they only do a baseline cortisol test or a full ACTH? The reason I ask because if is the post number on cortisol that is important.

Just as a bit of added information for you.
Base cortisol is what is in their body circulating at any given time and will fluctuate throughout the day, and during different events during the day.
The post cortisol level (on an ACTH test) is the cortisol that is stored in the adrenal gland and the stimulating agent, makes the adrenal gland dump the excess cortisol, like a sponge would. A dog with a very high post level of cortisol is storing too much cortisol, production is ramped up and so this is being circulated in the body.

104nmol is not a bad base cortisol though it is 3.76ug We do see baselines normal and post very high quite often in cushings though.

It does sound like there has been a definite benefit to her liver with the supplements you are using.

How are her cushing symptoms now?

[baileysmommmy]

follows Canadians - I am in montreal and looking for the cheapest place to buy.... anyone can help?

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about a Canadian source for med into Bailey’s original thread. We like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members, and parents, to refer back to the pup's history when needed. Thanks!

[labblab]

Molly Muffin's mom, Sharlene, lives in Canada, too, and is getting her trilostane there. As soon as she has a chance to check back in with you, I'm sure she'll give you her suggestions. ;)

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I order mine from thepetpharmacy in Ontario.
Trilostane compounded
11mgx30=$34.63+tax
14mgx30=$39.80+tax
15mgx30=$41.52+tax

Look for compounding pet pharmacy Montreal and see if they have one in Quebec. Or call thepetpharmacy. ( spelt exactly like that) and see if they will mail to you.

[baileysmommmy]

I order mine from thepetpharmacy in Ontario.
Trilostane compounded
11mgx30=$34.63+tax
14mgx30=$39.80+tax
15mgx30=$41.52+tax

Look for compounding pet pharmacy Montreal and see if they have one in Quebec. Or call thepetpharmacy. ( spelt exactly like that) and see if they will mail to you.

thank you..i bought from the vet so I can start asap but checked petsdrugmart and it is 45$ cheaper than the vet.....I can not find trilostane on the petpharmacy

[molly muffin]

It isn't listed. Trilostane is the compounded medication, and you need to email them. Tell them the dosage you want and ask about cost. I also get my benazepril from them, as they where cheaper than my vet.

[baileysmommmy]

It isn't listed. Trilostane is the compounded medication, and you need to email them. Tell them the dosage you want and ask about cost. I also get my benazepril from them, as they where cheaper than my vet.

thanks emailed them