Cushing's or not I still need a treatment

[redbeben]

Hi,

I have a pack of dogs rescued from different locations.One of the dogs is an ex-hunting dog that was dumped by hunters when he was roughly 1-2 years old.He lived on the streets for 6 months in heavy rain and cold weather until I caught him.

Like all spanish hunting dogs he was abused and scared of all things.Slowly he accomodated in the apartment and turned into a cuddly dog.

Now he is about 5 years old and has some strange symptoms.It started last winter when he started to pee many many times a day inside the house.Took him to the vet and eliminated any infection.

Then I realised he drinks a lot and more tests were done to eliminate diabetes.
oo
Then I realised that he drinks more because he contantly licks the floors,sofa,blankets....it is compulsive.So I thought licking makes him thirsty hence more water more pee.....so I looked for compulsive licking until I found stress and cortisol.

Stress cause could be storms and barometric pressure as his worst times are in winter(southern coast of Spain) as he has bad days normally 24-48 h before the storm(read a lot in this regards and it figures).

Again another barometric drop happens in a car hence his stress,panting,vomiting inside a car.

Before reading about the relationship between air pressure and cortisol I took him to the vet for tests...again.He did the cushing test with the injection and blood tests every 6 hours.When I reached the vet his cortisol level was already 2-3 times higher than normal due to car trip.Vet excluded cushing.

Still I might do the tests again soon but I wanted to ask a different thing.If he has no cushing and it is just weather sensitivity how can I decrease cortisol levels? It seems to affect him.His eyes are running constantly and still drinks a lot and pees a lot.Now with sunny weather he seems to be better(compared to 4 pees in 1 hour in winter).I must say that during night he does not pee or maybe just one pee for 12 hours.

I play classic music,zen and Bob Marley all day long just to keep the stress levels down.He reacts fine (and so do the rest of the dogs)as he sleeps all day long.

Still I see him tense.

There are no cushing symptoms like belly fat nor digestive problems.

I know another dog with same symptoms that had same tests and came up negative on cushing.Told owner to eliminate stress,check weather forecast,play Bob Marley and the dog got a lot better.Main stress was winter weather and daily trip to a park with a subway(more pressure drop).When he stopped taking him to the park dog got better....and from thinking to cut a hole in the house wall to allow the dog to pee now he has no problems.


I really am out of ideas.Anybody had or has same problem?Is it still cushing?Can I drop the cortisol level better than music and sunny weather ?

[labblab]

Hello and welcome! First off, bless you for saving your dogs from their lives of abuse and neglect. You are a hero to them and to us!

As for what may be going on with this dog, it is a bit of a puzzle. I will say that my own Cushing's dog was also an obsessive licker before he was diagnosed and treated. Especially, he would lick his own paws and any exposed skin on our bodies. I always wondered whether maybe he was seeking salt from our skin for some reason, maybe to compensate for all the water he was drinking and peeing. We never figured it out, but the licking did stop once he was treated. But of course, there may be another reason why your dog is licking so much -- as you say, maybe it is just to try to calm himself of stress.

One thought that occurs to me might be the use of melatonin. It is a supplement that does not require a prescription here in the U.S., but it can have a bit of a sedating effect for some dogs and is actually used as part of a treatment regimen for dogs who suffer from Cushing's symptoms that arise from elevated adrenal hormones other than cortisol (labelled as "Atypical Cushing's"). For dogs being treated for this condition, the melatonin is combined with lignans (another non-prescription supplement) in the attempt to lower these other hormones. We are aware of only one laboratory worldwide that tests for all the adrenal hormones, the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. But even in the absence of testing, you might try this same treatment regimen if you can obtain the supplements since it is basically safe and will no harm, regardless. I will come back a little later on and post some related links.

One other medical alternative might be seeing if your vet would be willing to prescribe a prescription anti-anxiety medication, just to see whether that would alter the stress/drinking/urination pattern.

Additionally, there may be some behavioral calming treatments you might try. I am going to send a message to one of our members in The Netherlands who is a gifted dog trainer and who is very experienced with handling rescue dogs who have experienced mistreatment. Medical issues aside, I'll bet Saskia may be able to offer some additional thoughts that may be helpful.

So once again, welcome. I'll be back later on to add those links, and I'm sure other folks will also soon be stopping by to talk with you. I'm really glad you found us!

Marianne

[redbeben]

Hi and thank you for the answer.I currently have 9 dogs...started with one and the rest were for adoption but nobody wanted such dogs so I ended up with them.
4 of them have problems -one with severe hip dysplasia and surgery(fixed now),one paralysed and spine surgery(now fixed),one with IBS or IBD (never knew and only thing that saved him was oat meal and strict diet)and this one with cortisol problems.The rest are bomb proof more or less.

This one was fine but being an abused dog stood for a while in a corner and slowly he came to us (sort of White Fang story).Symptoms only are licking,thirst and pee.No digestion problems or fat around the abdomen.

After we sterilised him like 1 year maybe,he started to pee.We thought he has an infection,checked and all fine.Then he did the same but I noticed he drinks a lot.Checked for thirst causes with the vet,did blood tests and liver and all fine.No diabetes or other things.....so I noticed that he licks the floors,sofas,us....basically all he can.He enters a hypnosis state and licks,licks....

Then I figured out his mouth and tongue go dry and that is why he drinks hence pees.

Then I needed to figure out the reason for stress,checked for cushing with the vet and nothing showed up.We both decided it must be a cookoo dog and all comes from his mind....but still I could not sleep at ease.

So I followed him step by step to see which days are bad and which are worst.In summer I did not notice much activity but in winter he even pees 4 times per hour.At night even in winter he is fine,no pee or maybe just once.Then I thought it must be barometric pressure affecting him.Read and read and read until I found an article related to humans and it was about and old study from the 90's that nobody cares anyway.

A storm front is felt by humans and animals 24-48 hours before it arrives depending on the wind speed....where I live is the perfect spot for pressure drops (don't ask me why but I live like in the eye of the storm with a 30 km radius).So now I don't even need to read the weather forecast and sometimes I even argue with neighbours about weather when they tell me it will be sunny and I tell them it will rain as my dog tells me so :)

Also he is scared of thunders and heavy rain to the point of panting.

So I got the stress factor and also I confirm it with a car ride where pressure drops as per Helmholtz effect.

I only use music to calm him down and play zen music or Bob Marley all day long,shut the blinds when storms approach and try to spend as much time with him as possible.

I heard about Flowers of Bach as natural stress remedy but did not try so far.Don't want to use any medicine as I am against them but out of 2 bad things I need to choose the minor one.


Should I do the cushing's test again?Should I use any pills ?

It;s not that he is panting inside the house or outside.HE has a normal active life,he plays,barks,jumps,eats,sleeps ...nothing diff from the rest of the pack.It is just the cortisol level that scares me as I don't know what will be long term effect on it.

One more thing I noticed that whenever storm is coming (and there is no cloud on the sky),the only dog that is not castrated tries to hump him....and I did not know why until I figured out cortisol reduces testosterone in his body and his body was not producing it as it used to anyway since he is castrated....

So...when storm comes he turns into a girl otherwise he is ok.All this hormonal unbalances scare me.

I hope others have same problem as above instead of cushing's but still need to reduce cortisol somehow.

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Redbeben :)

I am Saskia, Marianne mentioned me in her post, the one from The Netherlands :) Well, this is a very complicated situation and several things go through my mind. I will just start and will see where it leads me..okee? :)

First of all, you mention several times the elevated cortisol levels. But in your post I see just one mention it was measured? Is this correct, was the cortisol meassured just once? And could you get a copy from the actual results of the cortisol levels and post them here, that would be very helpfull. It is very true that stress can elevate the cortisol level so that definately is an option.

About the licking, drinking, peeing... at least that is how I understand how you interprete it. The dog licks, gets a dry mouth, drinks more and thus pees more..is that correct? In dogs the drinking/peeing mechanism works differant as it does in humans. We humans drink and then we need to pee, the more we drink, the more we pee. In dogs it is the other way around. Dogs drink to make up for the loss of fluid they lost during peeing. And, from licking, he may get a dry mouth but not excessive thirst. So he would take a zip of water because of his dry mouth but not drink excessively due to licking. So I personally, am not quite sure about your explanation and I think it would be important to pursue further testing. And in this specific case, I would go see a neurologist and possibly an internal medicine specialist. The excessive licking could have a neurological cause...could even be associated with some kind of epileptic activity.

I am not saying that the air pressure does not play a role but it would be extremely unusual and I would definately advise to look also for other causes, for example neurological.

About his anxiety, it is, unfortunately almost impossible for me to say something usefull about it. There are so many different factors that play a role and his living situation is not "average":) It could be as "simple" that living with so many dogs, is not what this specific dog needs...it might be too much for him. But it could be, and probably is, much more complicated. My advise to you would be to make sure, as far as possible, that there is nothing physical causing his behaviours. And once you know there is physically nothing wrong with him, I would consult with a dogbehaviorist, one that comes to your home...and will look at the complete picture. Maybe he/she can give you valuable advise regarding this specific dog and the situation he's living in.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask me...

Saskia and Quincy :)

[molly muffin]

What about thyroid? That can cause the same symptoms.
The melatonin is a good option to keep the stress down like give him some when you know a storm is coming. You mention a 6 hour test. Can you check and see if a low dex test was done or was it am ACTH test? Also post those values as that might help give us a clue as to what is going on. Not all Cushing dogs have the belly or any specific symptoms even. Another thing is whether anything else is out of range on blood work.

Those are just some initial thought.

Welcome to the forum.

[labblab]

Hi, it's me, back again. :)

For what it is worth, here's a link to a thread on our Resources forum that talks about the research that has been done so far on the possible effects of elevated adrenal hormones other than cortisol. As you will see, not all researchers agree on the significance of these hormonal elevations, nor whether treatment of any sort makes a genuine difference. But this is the disorder for which the combination of melatonin and lignans is sometimes recommended. As I mentioned above, aside from anything else, melatonin is known to carry the potential for sedating effect. So perhaps it might have a calming influence on your dog. Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198

Marianne

[redbeben]

Hi Redbeben :)

I am Saskia, Marianne mentioned me in her post, the one from The Netherlands :) Well, this is a very complicated situation and several things go through my mind. I will just start and will see where it leads me..okee? :)

First of all, you mention several times the elevated cortisol levels. But in your post I see just one mention it was measured? Is this correct, was the cortisol meassured just once? And could you get a copy from the actual results of the cortisol levels and post them here, that would be very helpfull. It is very true that stress can elevate the cortisol level so that definately is an option.

About the licking, drinking, peeing... at least that is how I understand how you interprete it. The dog licks, gets a dry mouth, drinks more and thus pees more..is that correct? In dogs the drinking/peeing mechanism works differant as it does in humans. We humans drink and then we need to pee, the more we drink, the more we pee. In dogs it is the other way around. Dogs drink to make up for the loss of fluid they lost during peeing. And, from licking, he may get a dry mouth but not excessive thirst. So he would take a zip of water because of his dry mouth but not drink excessively due to licking. So I personally, am not quite sure about your explanation and I think it would be important to pursue further testing. And in this specific case, I would go see a neurologist and possibly an internal medicine specialist. The excessive licking could have a neurological cause...could even be associated with some kind of epileptic activity.

I am not saying that the air pressure does not play a role but it would be extremely unusual and I would definately advise to look also for other causes, for example neurological.

About his anxiety, it is, unfortunately almost impossible for me to say something usefull about it. There are so many different factors that play a role and his living situation is not "average":) It could be as "simple" that living with so many dogs, is not what this specific dog needs...it might be too much for him. But it could be, and probably is, much more complicated. My advise to you would be to make sure, as far as possible, that there is nothing physical causing his behaviours. And once you know there is physically nothing wrong with him, I would consult with a dogbehaviorist, one that comes to your home...and will look at the complete picture. Maybe he/she can give you valuable advise regarding this specific dog and the situation he's living in.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask me...

Saskia and Quincy :)


Hi :) I did blood tests,liver tests,kidney tests at first to eliminate other things and all came out clean.All my dogs are well fed with organic food,no cereals,they eat loads of fruits and veggies,they are exercised at least 5 km a day(sometimes 10-15 km) + running and playing,no fat on them,open range to roam so it should be ok from the point of view of good life(at least compared to what they had before )
Luckily the dogs apart from bone problems and that stomach problem are all fine....including the stressed one.

Anyway back to our problem.One day I decided to run all the tests as it was impossible to take him out 4 times/hour.Vet could not find anything so he decided to do the cushing test to eliminate all doubts......but here comes the problem....vet is 30 km away so car ride is a must.car drive loads of panting and stress.when I arrived at the clinic his cortisol level was already 2 or 3 times higher than the scale.I think I can track down the results if I go to the vet.I want to ask the vet to put a pipe in his vein and let me take blood samples inside the house so I eliminate the stress and have an accurate level of the cortisol.
In regards to the licking is is something that he does soon after eating or out of the blue.I will ask for a CT scan as well.
The air pressure is just a correlation I made in between storm fronts and his behaviour.Then I read studies and saw it made sense.I also suffer from headaches when a storm approaches so I know how it feels.
My biggest fear now is the water intoxication as depletion of electrolites.
Will check with my vet next week about the blood tests and cortisol level and get back.

This is the patient (the little brown one):) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rD3-gad4Q

that was when life was still easy and we had only 4 dogs instead of 9 and 6 cats :))))))

[molly muffin]

Here is a thought. If it is Cushing's. It is possible that the resting cortisolWill be higher even on the initial draw.

[SasAndYunah]

Oh, they are adorable...all of them :D That's a full house, 9 dogs and 6 cats, wow!

There is a possiblility to test for Cushings through urine samples you can catch at home. In that case, stress from the carride won't be an issue...so that's an option. Let us know how your cute little patient is doing :)

Saskia and Quincy :)

[redbeben]

Hi,

summer is here (more or less ) and dog started to feel better.No more licking no more water no more peeing.Also his eyes look clearer now and he plays,jumps,barks.We had 2 days of clouds and rain and 48 hours before he was down down down and peeing all over.Even female dogs try to hump him so it means that testosterone level is so low due to cortisol excess.

Talked to the vet for tests and he confirmed it is not cushing's as he only has high cortisol when storms approach.

I also ordered some stress free pills and will try them as soon as I have a problem.

As mentioned I do not watch tv for the weather.Here is enough to watch the birds and Radar :)))))