Medicine side effects - Bandit has crossed Rainbow Bridge

[budindian]

My dog was recently diagnosed with Cushings. The vet put him on 60mg of Vetoryl . I came home from work on Wednesday and my Bandit always greets me but when I came in he could not get up and he was really trying, this was after 2 doses. I called the vet immediately and was told to skip the next dose and on the following day to open the capsule and put 1/2 of it on a piece of bread and give to him. I do not want to give him anymore of that medicine. Bandit, my dog, was able to get up after about 30 minutes and was ok for a while but had several of these episodes the rest of the night , I didn't think he was going to make it thru the night. Has anyone had these types of side effects ? Is this normal ? Please help. I read about the side effects but didn't see anything about what my dog was experiencing.

[labblab]

Welcome to you and Bandit, although I am very sorry for his problems since starting the Vetoryl. Yes, weakness and collapse can result if the Vetoryl dose is too large and causes a dog's cortisol (and/or aldosterone level) to drop too low. Here is an excerpt from the U.S. Product Insert for the drug:


ADVERSE REACTIONS:
The most common adverse reactions reported are poor/reduced appetite, vomiting, lethargy/dullness, diarrhea, and weakness. Occasionally, more serious reactions, including severe depression, hemorrhagic diarrhea, collapse, hypoadrenocortical crisis or adrenal necrosis/rupture may occur, and may result in death.

http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

Under the circumstances you are describing, I agree with you 100% that I would not restart the Vetoryl yet at any dose. And opening the capsule is specifically warned against by the manufacturer, anyway. You'll also find that warning in the Product Insert, too.

Can you tell us more about Bandit's overall history, and the symptoms and testing that led to the Cushing's diagnosis? Also, how much does he weigh? Current recommendations are not to give more than 1mg. per pound when treatment first begins. But as I say, given Bandit's reaction, I would hold off on starting back at any dose, at least temporarily.

Does Bandit seem to have totally recovered yet? Any additional worrisome signs like vomiting or diarrhea?

Marianne

[budindian]

Bandit was much better this morning, he still seemed to have a little trouble walking but nothing compared to yesterday, I will know more when I get home from work.
Bandit is about 13 years old and I took him to the vet to get his teeth checked and cleaned, they recommended a blood test before cleaning his teeth because of his age I agreed, the vets office called and ask if he drank a lot of water and I said yes but he has always even as a pup drank a lot of water, they said his liver levels were elevated and that they would like to do a test to see if he had cushings, I took him back last week and had the test done. I started reading about cushings and he has the pot belly and the fur on his back was thinning. The vet called said he does have cushings and I picked up the medication on Monday and started giving it to him Tuesday morning. Bandit weighs 32lbs, he is a lasa apsa, I think I speed that wrong.

[budindian]

Bandit was much better this morning, he still seemed to have a little trouble walking but nothing compared to yesterday, I will know more when I get home from work.
Bandit is about 13 years old and I took him to the vet to get his teeth checked and cleaned, they recommended a blood test before cleaning his teeth because of his age I agreed, the vets office called and ask if he drank a lot of water and I said yes but he has always even as a pup drank a lot of water, they said his liver levels were elevated and that they would like to do a test to see if he had cushings, I took him back last week and had the test done. I started reading about cushings and he has the pot belly and the fur on his back was thinning. The vet called said he does have cushings and I picked up the medication on Monday and started giving it to him Tuesday morning. Bandit weighs 32lbs, he is a lasa apsa, I think I speed that wrong.

I spelled, spelled wrong, this whole thing has gotten me so worried and upset, I want to Thank you for your help.

[budindian]

Bandit is a Ihasa Apso and he has been pretty healthy until this happened.
Would you recommend a lower dose of the Vetoryl ? I do not plan on opening the capsules and giving him any amount because I read the warnings from the medicine leaflet. I just don't know what to do now. I am going to call the vet and get an appointment to go in and talk about this.

[FemaleK9]

This is not a side effect, this is an overdose.

I don't understand why we see it so often, when an overdose can cause serious harm, even death, and the only down side to an underdose is that symptoms will not be completely controlled and retesting and dosage adjustment is required.

I'm so glad you found this forum in time. There are experienced, knowledgeable people here who can help you, and I'm sure they will come along shortly.

In order to help them help you, try to get copies of the results of the Cushings test that was done on Bandit.

Meanwhile, please don't give Bandit any more Vetoryl until you have talked to some of the experts on this board, regardless of what your vet says.

[labblab]

Thanks so much for this additional info. First off, no need at all to apologize for a spelling error -- it happens all the time to us all! However, there is a snazzy forum feature that allows you to go back at any time to make editing changes to any of your previously posted replies. Just look for the little blue "Edit" buttom at the bottom right-hand side of the reply. Click on it and a window will open up that will permit you to make any changes you wish to the earlier text of your reply. ;)

Now, moving on to Bandit's situation, I agree it's very important for you to talk things over with your vet since it does sound as though the Vetoryl dose was too high for him to tolerate. An even bigger question is whether you want to be treating Bandit at all, even if he truly does have Cushing's. Since a very big part of diagnosing and treating Cushing's relates to the presence and control of troublesome outward symptoms, I'm not sure whether it is even appropriate nor necessary to be giving Bandit Vetoryl right now. Here's the body of a related reply that I recently posted to another member:


Obviously, you will have to await diagnostic testing testing before proceeding with any treatment plan. But in answer to your question, in my own mind, the decision whether or not to treat depends on a number of factors: age of the dog, apparent discomfort, severity of symptoms (both external and internal), etc. Cushing's is typically a slowly developing syndrome, and the decision to actively treat may come sooner or later in the process. The primary goals of treament are to control the troublesome observable symptoms (things like excessive thirst, urination, hunger, panting, muscle wasting), and also to halt/delay silent internal damage. Untreated Cushing's can make dogs more vulnerable to things like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, protein-losing kidney disease, blindness (as a result of high blood pressure), pancreatitis, ligament damage and slow healing, chronic infections and skin issues, GI disturbance, etc. Not every dog will suffer from all or even many of these issues, but the disease can make them happen.

Since the damage usually occurs over time, my own opinion is that I don't worry so much about the "silent" damage in a dog who is already elderly. My biggest concern for a senior dog is immediate quality of life. So if the overt symptoms are making the senior dog uncomfortable, I would treat. Otherwise, I might not.

However, for a younger dog, I would be equally as concerned about the silent internal damage. I would want to give my dog as many quality years of life that I could, and that would mean putting a stop to the development of the internal systemic damage as well as relieving the uncomfortable outward problems.

It doesn't sound as though Bandit's outward symptoms have been bothering either of you to any degree at all -- it was only the lab values that even brought the Cushing's treatment into play. In the absence of strong, multiple outward symptoms, I think the Cushing's diagnosis always remains a bit of a question mark. The lack of strong symptoms certainly makes it harder to judge treatment success. And even if it is the correct diagnosis, do you want to proceed with treatment at his age and at this point in time? These are questions I would want to talk over further with your vet.

If you do decide to continue treatment, I believe I would buy Vetoryl capsules no larger than 10 mg., and start dosing again at that low amount. Given Bandit's scary initial reaction, I would want to start even lower than that 1 mg. per pound formula. With 10 mg. capsules, you can always gradually increase the dose if subsequent monitoring testing indicates that it's appropriate to do so.

Marianne

[labblab]

Also wanted to point out this post to you because it contains helpful info re: new, revised initial Vetoryl (trilostane) dosing recommendations. At one time, the dose your vet gave Bandit was the recommended strength for his weight. But the recommendations have shifted downward. You may even want to print out the post to take with you to your vet visit tomorrow.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1251#post1251

Marianne

[budindian]

I am so very happy I found you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yesterday I was feeling very lost and depressed over what to do but now I have a pretty good idea of how to proceed.
I will get Bandits test results when I go have a conversation with the vet about Bandits treatment, I am also going to take a copy of the current dosing schedule for the Vetoryl.
I got home yesterday and my little dog was pretty much back to normal or his normal, which made me feel so much better. I know I will have more questions but for now I just want to thank you all again. I am so grateful I found you.

[molly muffin]

Welcome to the forum. So glad you found us to. Many vets don't seem to know about the new dosing protocols. The reason they were lowered is due to exactly the sort of thing that happened with Bandit. Over dose. Every dog is different and you never know for sure how any given one will react to any medications, so always best to start low.

I'm glad to hear that he is back to normal. I'd have a full ACTH test before starting any vetroyl again.

Welcome!

[budindian]

I have an appointment with the vet on the 28th wouldn't you know she is on vacation until then. I hope by sharing the dosing information it will prevent another person and dog from going thru what we went thru. It was scary.

[budindian]

From what I can tell Bandit had a Cortisol Serial 3 (DEX)
The results are sample 1. 7.5 high (1-5), 4 hour 1.4 (0-1.4)
8 hour 5.6 high (0-1.4) ug/ dL . I hope you can understand this. This is the test the vet performed which told her he had cushings.

[Harley PoMMom]

You will see that I've merged your new post into your original thread about Bandit. This way, we will be able to keep track of his entire health and treatment history all in one place.

Those results are from a low-dose dexamethasone suppression (LDDS) test, and do point to the pituitary type of Cushing's, was this test and Bandit's elevated liver values the basis for her diagnosis for Cushing's?

How is Bandit doing since being off the Vetoryl?

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

Yes, those 2 tests were the reason for the Cushing diagnosis.

I've noticed since the overdose on the Vetoryl everyday he seems better. Bandit has had a problem getting in and out the back door so I was giving him glucosamine and it helped but when he had the overdose I quit giving him anything. I recently started giving him the glucosamine again and he is getting in and out the back door better than he has in a long time. I've noticed he still has the ravenous appetite but even his water drinking is better. Once again thank you all very much for your help and support, I don't know what I would have done without your help in making decisions about my baby.

[budindian]

I go back to the vet on the 28th to discuss Bandits treatment, I want to start out at the lowest dose and work up are there any questions I should ask ?
1. What is the name of the test he will be given 2 weeks after treatment to check cortisol levels ?
2. Is it best to give the test 14 days after treatment starts ? or 2 business weeks ? which would be 10 days.
3. If his cortisol levels aren't where they need to be what is a safe amount to increase to get them where they need to be ?
4. Finally after treatment starts when will I start seeing improvement in the cushing symptoms ?
These are some of my questions which I would feel better hearing answers from this forum.
I just can't thank all of you enough for being here and doing what you do.:)

[molly muffin]

The test to check cortisol levels is called an ACTH and there is a pre and a post number. Since Bandit crashed you probably want to know what his current levels are before starting him even on a reduced dosage.
You would start at 1mg/1lb of body weight IF his cortisol has come back up. If it hasn't don't start till it does. Then you test at 2 weeks and the 30 day mark as his cortisol should continue to drop on the same dose for at least 30 days.
There is no set, this is safe or not safe, once treatment starts. It is all about how is he doing and what kind of numbers on the ACTH test is there. Based on the previous crash, I'd guess he won't go up in dosage too much. That is just my guess.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi! I've merged your new post into your original thread about Bandit. This way, we will be able to keep track of his entire health and treatment history all in one place. I have typed my comments and questions in blue text within the body of your last post below.


I go back to the vet on the 28th to discuss Bandits treatment, I want to start out at the lowest dose and work up are there any questions I should ask ?

Bandit has no outward Cushing's symptoms, correct? If this so, treatment should not be started. The medications for Cushing's do not cure the disease they are used to control symptoms, if there are no symptom present how do you know if the treatment is effective?

1. What is the name of the test he will be given 2 weeks after treatment to check cortisol levels ?

This would be the ACTH stimulation test. When this test is used in monitoring Trilostane the stimulation test has to be performed 4-6 hours after the dose is given, also the Trilostane has to given with food.

2. Is it best to give the test 14 days after treatment starts ? or 2 business weeks ? which would be 10 days.

10-14 days after treatment starts is when the first monitoring ACTH stim test is done.

3. If his cortisol levels aren't where they need to be what is a safe amount to increase to get them where they need to be ?

It is recommended that there be no dosing increases until after the 30-day testing; dosing should be decreased at any time if the dog's cortisol is dropping too low. It may take a while and a lot of tweaking to get a dog's cortisol within the therapeutic ranges. If the dosage needs a upward adjustment (because clinical symptoms are not controlled and ACTH stim results are high) than I would only increase the dosage by no more than 5 mg.

4. Finally after treatment starts when will I start seeing improvement in the cushing symptoms ?

Increased peeing/drinking should lesses in two weeks. But as I have mentioned, if Bandit has so obvious symptoms, I really do not know how you can gauge if his treatment is working.

These are some of my questions which I would feel better hearing answers from this forum.
I just can't thank all of you enough for being here and doing what you do.:)

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

Bandit does have signs of cushings . He has the pot belly, thinning fur on his back and stomach, drinks a lot of water (but he has always drank a lot of water) ravenous appetite, his hind legs seem to be stiff and he has these skin tags on his body, they are not really sores but more like pimples. I have read on here and other places those are signs of cushings, I think. I have noticed since his overdose some of the symptoms are better, like the thirst and the stiffness in his back legs. That will be one of the things I will discuss with the vet then is testing to see if his cortisol levels have gone down since the crash. Thank you so much, I just don't think the vet has much experience with this disease, which I plan on asking also. I am just consumed with this since I was told he had this.

[Harley PoMMom]

As Sharlene has mentioned, before Trilostane therapy begins an ACTH stimulation test needs to be done to make sure her adrenal glands are producing or overproducing cortisol.

Lori

[molly muffin]

We all become consumed with Cushing's after diagnosis. I know I am the same way. It also feels like there is always more to learn too.
A vet doesn't always have to have a lot of experience with Cushing's but they do need to be willing to learn all they can about it, follow proper protocols, be willing to work with you as a team, work with a specialist if necessary and do what ever is necessary to make for successful treatment.

[budindian]

Good morning,
It is morning here anyway, I took Bandit to the vet yesterday, we decided to start him on 10mg of the Vetoryl , the vet wanted to start at 30mg but I told her I was not comfortable with that. The vet seemed surprised he had such a reaction to the 60mg so I pulled my papers out that I had printed off about the lower dose guidelines and she read them. I ask about doing the acth test before stating him on the meds again and she said the test was expensive and she didn't feel it was necessary right now. I ask if I needed to bring him in in 2 weeks to be tested and she said why don't we wait for 30 days ,since that is such a low dose, and test him then, if he can tolerate the medication. She said there are other meds for this disease but the Vetoryl is the safest. So there you have it that's where we are for now. I ask if she had very many patients with this disease and she said she was treating several dogs with cushings. I just want my little boy to be healthy and happy for the rest of his days, I guess that's all any of us want.

[molly muffin]

Since you don't know what his cortisol came back up to after the crash, I'd do the ACTH if I had any worries at all, or maybe just do them at say 2 or 3 weeks anyhow. 10mg is Definitely a safer starting dose, and he did have an immediate reaction to the meds, so went pretty low.

yes we all want them to be healthy and happy as can be. :)

[budindian]

Is there a way to tell how long your dog has had cushings?

[Harley PoMMom]

There really is no clear cut way to know how long a dog has Cushing's. Cushing's is a slow progressing disease, some dogs go undiagnosed for years and since the majority of dog's with Cushing's are senior the symptoms associated with it are usually attributed to old age.

[budindian]

I was just curious because most of the changes I've seen with Bandit have occurred in the last year and I just thought it was because he was getting older.
He seems to be doing better on the lower dose of medicine, just a little tired but nothing at all like the last time.
Once again Thank you for your help.

[molly muffin]

Hope Bandit is still doing well on the 10mg.

[budindian]

Bandit has been on the 10mg Vetoryl for a week today and seems to be doing well. I was telling a friend I don't know if he is actually getting better or I just want him to be better so I'm seeing things that are not there. Bandits water drinking seems less and he has not constantly been begging for treats so I think he is getting some benefit from 10mg. When I take him back to the vet for the acth test and she wants to raise his dose I think I will ask that he get 20mg maybe 10mg in the morning and 10mg in the evening instead of jumping up to 30mg. I'm happy for this forum because I would have just went with what the vet said not knowing any better. I feel so much better now than when I first posted and I want to thank you all again.

[Harley PoMMom]

Glad to hear that Bandit is doing well with the Vetoryl!! When that ACTH stimulation test is performed please do post the results.

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

I definitely post the results of the test. Can you give me an idea of what I should be looking for ? What is a good range ?

[molly muffin]

Optimally you want the post ACTH number to be between 1.5ug and 5.0ug, however the post can be up to 9.0ug if symptoms are controlled.

I wouldn't change doses until after 30 days when you see how much he actually drops in a month.

[budindian]

Bandit has been on the 10mg of Vetoryl for about 3 weeks now, he seems better but in a different way. Bandit is more vocal now he loves to bark , he would bark before but only if someone came to the door, an animal was in his yard etc. Bandit has also started waking me up at 3 in the morning for no reason, at first I thought he needed to go to the bathroom but he won't go out , then I'll lay back down and about 10 minutes later he is crying again so I'll get up and make him go out sometimes he will go to the bathroom and sometimes he won't. Bandit will let me lay back down for about 30 more minutes and then he is crying or barking again , its like he is not happy unless I'm up, I will get up and go lay on the sofa and he will go back to sleep and let me go back to sleep but then its about time for me to get up. Has anyone noticed any different behaviors in their cushpups after starting Vetoryl or any of the cushing medications ? I have to break his waking me up in the wee hours of the morning but I haven't figured out how yet. I go to work and I am exhausted. Any suggestions would really help.

[Harley PoMMom]

I think having an ACTH stimulation test should be done especially since one was not done before restarting Bandit on Vetoryl after his crash. I would also have his electrolytes checked just to make sure nothing abnormal has happened.

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

You know we have had others who mentioned their dogs acting up and restless at night. If the cortisol is in a good range and the electrolytes are normal, then it could be that you need a divided dose of AM and PM (split, not cumulative)

Or melatonin at night before bed might help to calm him too.

[budindian]

I am going to have a ACTH test done in about a week , the vet wanted to wait until he had been on the Vetoryl for 30 days and that will be in about a week or week and 1/2. If his cortisol is still high and she wants to increase the Vetoryl I am going to suggest going up to 20 mg , 10 in the morning and 10 in the evening. Where can I buy melatonin? Can I give him melatonin for people or do they make it for dogs? Is the strength all the same? I really do appreciate your help.

[Harley PoMMom]

You can find melatonin in any health food store, drug store, and even Walmart. You want the plain kind, no rapid release or fast-acting. I used to purchase mine from the Vitamin shoppe, here's a link: http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/melatonin-3-mg-120-capsules/vs-1336#.VV55j3t4G1Q Oh, and yes, the melatonin for people is ok.



A dose of 3 mg is given q12hrs (BID) for dogs <30 lbs; a dose of 6 mg is given q12hrs (BID) for dogs > 30 lbs.

The above dosing guidelines come from the College of Veterinary Medicine The University of Tennessee.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/TreatmentInfoAtypicalCushings201107.pdf

[molly muffin]

Keep this in mind for any increase, post ACTH 2 - 5ug, but can be up to 9ug if symptoms are decreased, or decreasing. You want to be careful with doubling, we went up 3 mg at a time and my dog slowly came down, we went up 4mg and she came down a whole lot very quickly (in 2 weeks). It doesn't always take much and we are still below her body weight, she weights 18lbs and is on 15mg and depending on what this test looks like we will either leave it at 15mg or decrease to 14mg, so you are talking about doubling the dose and that can do a whole lot of decreasing, which may not be what you want, it could take you too low again.

[budindian]

His symptoms of the cushings have gotten better, he is not drinking near the amount of water he was. His appetite is still off the charts.i hadn't thought about increasing to much but that makes sense I just thought that since it only comes in increments of 10mg I would have to increase 10mg at a time. I know I sound like a broken record thanking you but I would not know what to do without you. My little fur baby ( as all of yours) means the world to me and the help is priceless. I have some shopping to do today so I will get some melatonin and try that with his waking up at the crack of dawn. Thanks again

[molly muffin]

Vetroyl does come in those increments, but you can get compounded trilostane too. And do 10mg vetroyl and a couple mg's of trilostane, or do it all compounded.

Yes they do mean the world to us :)

[FemaleK9]

It seems to me that Bandit may benefit from splitting the daily dosage into two 12 hour doses, to keep the level of medication more even. Vetoryl/trilostane only remains effective for a few hours, so with a single daily dose there are many hours for a dog's cortisol level to rise before the next dose, which might account for Bandit being so active at night. The twice a day regime can help keep things on a more even level.

[budindian]

If I do the compounded trilostane do I need a prescription from his vet? I have seen on this forum several pharmacies I can use if I can't find one in my area. Bandit has about a week left of the Vetoryl so I'm getting ready for the test and I'm sure the vet will want to up the dosage, I just want to do this as safely as possible for my Bandit.

[Harley PoMMom]

Yes, a prescription is needed from the vet for compounding the medication. What dosage strengths were you looking into buying? Just wanted to let you know that the pharmacy cannot compound Trilostane doses that are available through Dechra.

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

Well I take Bandit on Monday June 1st for his ACTH test and I am anxious to see what his levels are after his crash and taking the 10mg of Vetoryl for 30 days now. Are there 2 blood draws for this test ? I ask the vets assistant and they didn't seem to know. I just wanted to take him get his blood drawn then take him home instead of leaving him for 4 hours.
I think I am going to have to start giving him the melatonin he has started waking me up at 1 in the morning and about every hour after so I am not getting much sleep. I just didn't want to give him a bunch of meds if I didn't have to. Bandit takes the Vetoryl and glucosamine and I was going to get him something else I read about on here for the mobility in his back legs but I think the melatonin would really benefit me right now. I'm just rambling and thinking out loud. I will post his results when I get them next week.

[Harley PoMMom]

The ACTH stimulation test is used for monitoring dogs on treatment for Cushing's. The ACTH stimulation test is performed 4-6 hours after giving the dog their morning dose of Vetoryl/Trilostane (with food).

Most vets use Cortrosyn as the stimulating agent for the ACTH stimulation test, which includes 2 blood draws; the first blood draw result is known as the "pre" number; a stimulating agent is injected and an hour later the second blood draw is taken and this result is the "post" number. I see you mentioned " 4 hours" is this in relation to how long it takes your vet to perform the ACTH stimulation test?

And please do post those results as soon as you get them, will be crossing fingers for good numbers. ;)

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

Thank you for replying , all I knew was he had to get a blood draw 4-6 hours after he had taken the Vetoryl but now I know he will have to have a second blood draw after that.
When is the best time to give him the melatonin ? to ensure a restful sleep ?

[Harley PoMMom]

I used to give my boy 3mg of melatonin twice a day (for a total of 6 mg for one day), one in the morning and than 12 hours later.

[judymaggie]

Hi! My Abbie gets sleepy about 20 minutes after I give her melatonin. She weighs 24 lbs. and she gets 3 mg. Dosage is related to weight. Be certain to buy plain melatonin--some products are mixed with other things.

[budindian]

I made sure it is plain melatonin but I got 5mg Bandit weighs about 32lbs. I hope that is not to much for him. I just want him to rest all night not knock him out. I guess I could try it tonight and see how long he sleeps. Do you think that is to much?

[Harley PoMMom]

On the College of Veterinary Medicine/University of Tennessee treatment option sheet it reads:
Melatonin. Often used as a first treatment, especially if alopecia is present, since it is cheap, has few side effects and is available in health food stores or via nutrient suppliers on the Internet. Typically, a dose of 3 mg is given q12hrs (BID) for dogs <30 lbs; a dose of 6 mg is given q12hrs (BID) for dogs > 30 lbs.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/TreatmentInfoAtypicalCushings201107.pdf

I really don't think it would hurt, although he may get "loopy" and/or very tired.

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

I was hoping he would get really sleepy but I gave it to him about an hour before bedtime and he didn't wake me up at 1, which has become his routine, but he woke me at 3. Tonight I think I will give it to him right at bedtime and hope for the best. Thanks again for the help.

[MiamiThom]

We give our 46 lb Ebon 6mg twice a day (morning and evening meals). I will say that it does help him relax, but there are still those evenings (despite the melatonin) that he would wake up and pant - keeping us awake most of the night.

I don't know if it is normal or not, but with the Vetoryl, sometimes Ebon's body temperature is a bit warmer so we put a fan on high in front of the bed and he curls up in front of it and goes to sleep. I also give him an ice cube to play with and eat and it seems to calm him too. I think for Ebon it is more that he gets hot during the night and needs some water. Once we do that he goes right back to sleep.

[budindian]

Thank you for your help, I will try that, the fan & ice. I think that maybe part of the problem because sometimes if I go lay on the sofa he will go back to sleep but there is a ceiling fan in there and its always on so I think maybe that is a cooler place for him to sleep. I just don't understand why he feels like I have to be in the room with him in order for him to sleep. It is rare when he wakes me up that he needs to go out to go to the bathroom. Right now I am open to all suggestions, Bandit can sleep all day but I have to get up and go to work. Thanks again.

[molly muffin]

Try giving it to him right at bed time and see if that helps.

[budindian]

Well I gave it to him later last night almost right at bedtime and he still woke me up at 3:02 am, I need to figure out how to get his internal clock to go off about 2 hours later. A bomb could go off and it wouldn't wake me up but let Bandit so much as whimper and I wake up. I'm going to try and see how long I can ignore him tonight and hopefully he will just lay back down. Our weather has been cooler so it's cool at night so I don't think he is hot. Thank everyone for the suggestions please keep them coming something has got to work eventually.

[judymaggie]

Hi! Another thought is to try a bit more melatonin. With his weight you could be giving him 6 mg. If you have a pill cutter, you could cut one in quarters and give him 1 and 1/4. That little bit extra might make a difference.

[budindian]

Actually the melatonin has been working the last 2 nights, he has not woke me up until 5:30 am which is much better and closer to the time I get up, I guess it needed time to build up in his system. If for whatever reason he starts waking me up real early again I will give the 6mg a try. Thank you.
I took him yesterday for the ACTH test so I'm anxious for the results, the vet said probably Friday. I will post them on here, I will have to go get a copy because she said she would call with the results. I know she is going to want to increase the Vetoryl I am just going to have to think about how much of an increase I feel comfortable with, I feel a little at a time is better than a big jump all at once. Bandit did not tolerate a lot so any suggestions (again) would be greatly appreciated.

[Harley PoMMom]

A dosage increase can not solely be based on those ACTH stimulation numbers, how a dog is feeling and acting needs to be taken in consideration too. How are Bandit's symptoms?

Hugs, Lori

[MiamiThom]

A dosage increase can not solely be based on those ACTH stimulation numbers, how a dog is feeling and acting needs to be taken in consideration too. How are Bandit's symptoms?

Hugs, Lori

That is good information to keep in mind as we work toward increases on Ebon too. I think that before we go to the second level of increase that I mentioned in our post I will make sure to assess the symptoms too. Thank you for sharing that.

[budindian]

The only symptom I've noticed is any better is he does not drink as much water as he was. I've noticed this last week he is panting more than usual.
The vet called last night (I wasn't home) and left a message that the results were back and his numbers are still high and would I consider giving him the 10mg Vetoryl twice a day, that is what I was thinking anyway. Our vets day off is today so I am going to go talk to her on Thursday and get a copy of the results of the ACTH test. I was expecting the levels to still be high because he is still having numerous symptoms. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Harley PoMMom]

When you get those ACTH stimulation results posted we will be able to provide you with meaningful feedback, ok ;)

[budindian]

Thank You , I hope to get them on Thursday.

[budindian]

Here are Bandits results the best that I can copy them.

Results. Reference range. Units
Cortisol sample 1. 3.0. 1.0-5.0. ug/dL
Cortisol sample 2. 9.5. 8.0-17.0. ug/dL

I don't know as much about this as the people in this forum but it seems to me he is in range. The vet recommended giving him 10mg in the morning and 10mg in the evening for a month and then doing another ACTH test. I will be waiting to hear your thoughts on this and once again thank you for your help.

[Harley PoMMom]

The therapeutic ranges for a dog on Vetoryl/Trilostane are 1.5 ug/dl - 5.5 ug/dl, and that post can go up as high as 9.1 ug/dl if clinical symptoms are controlled. Is the panting the only symptom that has not abated? How about his appetite?

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

His appetite is still out of control, he would eat all the time if I would feed him.

[budindian]

The only thing I've noticed that is less is the water drinking.

[Harley PoMMom]

Unless his symptoms seem to worsen in the evening I wouldn't split up his dosage (10mg - morning/10 mg - night), instead I'd be more in favor of adding 5 mg of compounded Trilostane to his 10 mg dose which would be 15 mg total for the day. I'm a bit leery seeing that he did crash, I'm just a big worry wart :o

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

I am a complete worry wart too, so I'd go with a small increase and see if you can't get the symptoms controlled without taking him too low.

[budindian]

I'm in agreement with you two. There is nothing wrong with being worry warts, I'm that way myself. I know very little about all of this (I'm learning) so what I learn here from everyone I trust because I know you have the experience and the knowledge.
I ask the vet when I first found out my baby had cushings if she was very experienced with this and she told me she had several patients that had cushings but when I went to get a copy of his results (they were supposed to be ready) the assistant couldn't find them so she had to get his chart and thought she was making me a copy of the results but when I looked at it, it was instructions on how to do the ACTH test. There can be several explanations for why the vet needed instructions but I found that odd. I had to show the assistant what the test results looked like. Due to the fact Bandit crashed on his first dosage, I would rather be cautious about this. What are the symptoms of his cortisol dropping to low ? I saw what real low is but I don't know what to expect if it drops a little lower that say normal.

[budindian]

The vet wasn't very receptive to getting the 15mg compounded so she talked me into giving Bandit 10mg twice a day. I give him one in the morning and one in the evening. I have been doing this for a few days now and haven't noticed much of a change. The vet would like to try this for 30 days do another ACTH test and go from there.
My concern now is his cortisol level dropping to low. The vet has never mentioned giving me prednisone in case of a drop but I found some that I had from a little while back.
I do know the melatonin works because I forgot to give it to him last night at bedtime and we were up bright and early this morning so I will not be forgetting that again. Just rambling sometimes it just feels good to get all this out.

[Squirt's Mom]

You vet just doesn't understand that they work for you, not you for them. ;) The ACTH needs to be done in 2 weeks, not 30 days, too. The testing schedule always starts all over at the 2 week mark with any dose change. So call and schedule the ACTH for 2 weeks from now UNLESS you see signs the cortisol is going too low, then call asap.

[budindian]

Your right. Thank You

[budindian]

Well Bandit has been on split doses now for about a week and I think he is doing better, his appetite seems better and his fur and skin look better. I think we may be getting close to the dose he needs. Now if I could get him to sleep thru the night we would be close to normal. Its funny because even his stomach has a different look to it, he is still over weight but it just has a less pot look if that makes sense. I don't know what we would have done without you.

[budindian]

I really don't know what to do about him not sleeping thru the night, the melatonin does not seem to work. Is there something the vet can prescribe to help ? I don't want to give him a bunch of pills but I'm at the end of my rope, now he is waking me at 2:45 am. I tried to just let him cry it out but he would not stop I had to get up and if the crying doesn't get me up he will start barking. I have been trying different things and so far nothing is helping. Any more suggestions anyone has would be appreciated. I'm so tired by Friday, I go home from work and start watching the tube and before you know it, its time to go to bed. I can sleep later on the weekends but its during the week, I can really feel not getting a full nights sleep.

[Squirt's Mom]

Did the sleep issues begin after starting the Vetoryl, like being him so vocal did, or was this an issue before starting the treatment?

[budindian]

The sleeping started after starting the Vetoryl, or not sleeping.

[molly muffin]

When he wakes you up in the middle of the night. What does he want? Is it a potty break? Hungry? More Water?

They do have a pretty strong internal clock, (dogs I mean) and changing it can be difficult to do. It takes us quite a long time after ether my dog has been boarded and is on a different schedule from home, or when we change the clocks. What we have to do is take it very slowly. Not react at first, then respond 30 - 45 minutes later than when they Thought it was time for whatever. And gradually adjust the time backwards so you get longer periods of peace. Not sure if this would work or you'd be awake enough to try it even.

I can't imagine not getting sleep when you need it before heading off to work.
Would a change of his bed make a difference? Like does he want to be in bed with you?

Just brain storming here.

[mommyslittlegirl]

My Kiki stays awake till 2 or 3 in the morning. She has been doing this for over a year. She wants to eat and eat.. She also has been on trilostane for years.I do not know if it the trilostane,Cushings or something else going on. I have asked the vets.. They have come up with nothing. I am sorry I can not help. Hopefully these great people here can help. Please get back with your vet as I know it is not good for you or your baby. Both gets very tired.

[budindian]

Thank you for talking with me about this, its driving me crazy trying to get him to sleep later. Normally he will start crying, and over the weekend I thought I'm going to let him cry it out because I could sleep later on the weekend, anyway he cried and cried and cried he would not stop. When he cries to get up I'll go to the door to let him out but he won't go out he just looks at me so I'll make him go out, then when he comes back in he cries some more wanting to eat. I have been giving him canned dog food to give him the veteroyl after he eats he will go back to sleep as long as I am laying on the couch. I've noticed when he wakes me up its when the air conditioner has shutoff in the house and its before it is set to come back on so its a little warm in the house but not much. You are right about one thing their internal clocks are hard to change. That's the routine let him out and feed him , I've tried putting him in the bed with me and that doesn't work. This morning it was 3:15 when he woke me up crying. So how do you get your babies clock reset again ? I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

[molly muffin]

I ignore her for 1/2 an hour, then get up, but don't feed until it is time to be fed. So maybe let him out, then go back to bed. I know it's a real hassle with working, but you have to keep moving the time backwards for him. Feeding is a huge motivator for dogs and especially cushings dogs. Molly will wake me from a sound sleep huffying and puffing at me when it is time for something involving food. If you can only do it in 15 increments then that is what you do.

But like I said no mater what else you do, food has to be at the time that you set for food. They tend to adapt better when they associate the food with that time. Molly gets her breakfast at 8am after a walk.

Also cushings dogs have problems with regulating temperature sometimes, and feeling too hot. So, the air conditioner kicking off, might end up with him being warm, waking up, deciding it is time to get up, etc. Try leaving it set for a specific temperature rather than a specific time to go on and off.

Just throwing ideas at you to try.

[budindian]

Thank You, Last night or early this morning Bandit woke me up, I got up gave him scratches and talked to him a little , I laid back down and he let me for about 15 min, then when I got up he went to the door so he had to go out. I let him out and then we went back to bed, he let me sleep about 30 minutes so I got up and talked to him a little but I didn't feed him I laid down on the couch and he left me alone until time to get up and then I fed him. I have been turning the temp down a few degree at night and I think that will help also. I am going to try your suggestions I think it will work. I'm just going to have to let him know he is not going to eat until we get up at the normal time. Thank you, finally I feel like there is hope for getting a full nights sleep. I know its going to take time.;)

[molly muffin]

It does take time for them to adjust, but I think this is the right track and what you did last night worked pretty well in that he laid down, tried again, laid down, etc. Eventually his tummy will say, okay, not going to happen so might as well sleep. If he is like molly he perks up later in the evening when you are home but sleeps while you are away. That is pretty natural as they are pack animals first and foremost.

Just give this some time and I think it will work for you

[budindian]

Thank You, I have been trying your suggestions this week and like you said it is going to be a long slow process but I think it is going to work. He is still waking me up but we have feed time to a lot later in the morning which is progress, now on to getting him to go back to sleep the first time he wakes me and staying asleep. I finally feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Molly is a very cute dog to so when they cry no matter what time it is , its hard to be stern with them. Thanks again.
:o

[molly muffin]

Baby steps. :)

Molly didn't wake up at night and cry but she sure does get her times mixed up after a clock change or after she has been in boarding at the kennel, where they time potty and food differently than at home.

Then we start all over with the, this is when you eat and this is when you go out scenerio till she is back on track.

[budindian]

Its been a while since I've posted , I've been a little busy with grandkids and baseball. My baby Bandit is doing a little better but its time for an update. I quit giving him the melatonin and he seems to be sleeping better I know its crazy but he is letting me sleep until almost time to get up. I took him the end of last week for another ACTH test and I will post the results tomorrow(I'm going to go get a copy tonight) the vet feels his dosage of Vetoryl needs to stay where it is ( I give him 10mg in the morning and then 10mg in the evening) she said his cortisol level is still a little high but not real high kind of borderline. I hope this forum can help me once again decide if I leave the dose as is or add another 10mg. I was kind of surprised she wanted to leave it alone, we has disagreed on the amount of Vetoryl up until now, she was wanting to give him higher doses and I was the one wanting to take it slow.
So until I get the results posted I will close for now and thank everyone again.

[budindian]

I went and picked up Bandits test results and I am totally confused please help.

Cortisol sample 1 8.7 (high). 1.0-5.0. Ug/dL
Cortisol sample 2. 16.0. 8.0-17.0. ug/dL

These are the results the vet says are to close to warrant raising the dose of Vetoryl. Unless I'm reading them backwards his last results were better than these. I just don't know. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what you think.

[molly muffin]

You are right, the last test was better:

06/04/2015
Results. Reference range. Units
Cortisol sample 1. 3.0. 1.0-5.0. ug/dL
Cortisol sample 2. 9.5. 8.0-17.0. ug/dL

at that time we explained that the optimal range is 1.5 - 5.0 ug post,
so now he is:

Cortisol sample 1 8.7 (high). 1.0-5.0. Ug/dL
Cortisol sample 2. 16.0. 8.0-17.0. ug/dL

He has actually gone up post. You can be as high as 9.0ug with controlled symptoms, but not 16. That isn't borderline, it's high still, so yes, he's been on this does for over a month and since going up, he isn't controlled.
You can opt to add in 5mg morning and night, (compounded trilostane), or something similar but I would increase at this point.

Your vet needs to learn that a dog on medication is not looking for the same range as a dog being diagnosed. Do you have the actual results from the lab? I'm curious, mine and most will say underneath that a dog being treated should be at 1.5 - 9.0 or 1.5 to 5.0ug. Does your results have those written in? If not, then your vet needs to do some reading on the medication she is administering, so she knows.

Glad to hear Bandit is sleeping almost through the night now and that means you are too!!

:)

[budindian]

Yes the results do have comments at the bottom from the lab, I'm at work but I will write what it says when I get home. The vet said not to pay any attention to that. I don't know what has happened with the vet since Bandit started with all this, maybe she had a dog that had a bad result because she told them to take to much vetoryl because she is being more cautious than she has been in the past.

And yes I am getting to sleep almost until time to get up and I love it, I followed your suggestions and now when he wakes up I know its because he needs to go out, so he goes out and I go back to sleep, its wonderful.

[budindian]

I went ahead and bought more 10mg vetoryl while I was at the vet, so when I run out of it I'm going to suggest I give him 1 pill a day at the 30mg and see how he does, he has been improving on 10mg in the morning and 10mg at night but I thought he was still high also. If he has 30mg that will be about what he should have for his weight, he weighs 34lbs now so I think that would be a more therapeutic dose for his weight. I just don't know what I would do if I didn't have this forum, thanks again.

[budindian]

Wow its been awhile since I've been on this forum, I normally come and read all the new posts and I haven't been able to do that lately. Been very busy. I am happy to say my little cushbaby is I think stabilized for now. About 2 weeks ago I started him on 30mg of Vetoryl due to the last test results, he seems to be doing well, his hair is finally starting to get a little thicker again. I take him in 2-3 more weeks for another test and hopefully the results will be good.
Is there anything I can get from the vet or natural supplement to help his hind quarters move more like they used to? It just seems he is very stiff and he has trouble getting up the two stairs coming into the house from the back yard. If anyone knows of anything I would appreciate knowing about it. Sometimes he has such a hard time I have to pick him up and carry him up the stairs and he just hates it. Well better get back to work, feels good to be here.

[Harley PoMMom]

Could you get a copy of that ACTH stim test and post the results for us? Sometimes when the cortisol is brought within the therapeutic ranges arthritis can be unmasked, I would ask the vet if this could be the possibility for the stiffness, and if it is there are medications that can help.

If it turns out that muscle weakness is the cause than this can take a while to improve, sometimes hydrotherapy will work in making those rear-end muscles stronger.

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

Yes I will post the results or should I wait he will be having another ACTH stim test in about 2 weeks. Thank you I hadn't even thought about arthritis, I know I'm getting older and its a very real possibility for me so why not him.

[Harley PoMMom]

Yes I will post the results or should I wait he will be having another ACTH stim test in about 2 weeks. Thank you I hadn't even thought about arthritis, I know I'm getting older and its a very real possibility for me so why not him.

If you would post those recent ACTH stim results that would be great, it may help to have them posted here just in case we would need to reflect back...thanks!

I, too, have more aches and pains since getting older :eek::)

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

I have more aches and pains too and so does my molly. She gets carried up and down the stairs now as she just can't make it as much as she Thinks that she can and she certainly wants to try, but it's not safe. A ramp on the back two steps might work?

Glucosomine supplements of course, salmon fish oil supplement.

[budindian]

Over the last couple of weeks my little Bandit has just started peeing in the house, he has never used the bathroom in the house. When it first started he would cry or bark to go out and would have an accident before he could get outside. This last week he doesn't even bark, cry or anything he just goes to the bathroom in the house. Is this common with dogs with cushings ? He is on 30mg of Vetoryl and he is due for a test to check his cortisol levels. Any help/suggestions with this would be great.

[Harley PoMMom]

Could be an UTI so I would definitely have a urine culture and sensitivity test performed to see if bacteria is growing in Bandit's urine.

Could you post Bandit's last couple ACTH stimulation test results for us?

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

How is Bandit doing?

[budindian]

Its been a while since I've posted anything but I come and read other peoples messages. I guess things have been going well for my Bandit, we finally got his dosage of Vetoryl where it needed to be I think and he has been doing well until this weekend. My question is can his cortisol level drop under where it needs to be ? This Saturday I was gone most of the day and when I came home he was just acting very lethargic and listless, he wasn't his usual self so I started keeping an eye on him and noticed he was sleeping but his breathing was irregular so I put my hand on him and he was shivering. I got up and started calling to see if any vets were open and since it was around 5pm of course not so I took him to the emergency vet. They checked him out and said everything was fine but without xrays or blood work they couldn't really tell so I told them I'm here do the blood work around 45 min later they returned and said blood work was fine but his white blood count was a little high so they gave me 7 days of antibiotics and sent us home. He is acting a little better but he is not acting like his usual spoiled self. I was wondering what are the signs of his cortisol being to low? I'm going to make him an appointment today for the ACTH test but can they do the test while he is taking the other meds ? I had an appointment a couple of weeks back for the ACTH test but the weather was bad and I had to cancel and haven't rescheduled. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about the possibility of cortisol dropping too low into Bandit’s original thread. We like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members, and parents, to refer back to the pup's history when needed. If it has been a while since you posted, you may need to take some time to search for your original thread. Thanks!

[budindian]

I did try a ramp on the stairs but he will walk around it, refuses to use the ramp.

[Harley PoMMom]

A dog's cortisol can drop too low even when they have been taking the same dose strength for a period of time. Does Bandit have diarrhea? How is his appetite? Is he still having urine accidents in the house? Since his white blood count was high it could very well be an UTI and that would explain why he is started peeing in the house.

Ideally the ACTH stimulation test should not be performed when a dog has a non-adrenal illness however since it is time for one to be done and he is not acting like his normal self I would opt to have one performed. And if his cortsiol is within the therapeutic ranges than the focus can be shifted onto something else.

Keep us updated, ok? ;)

Hugs, Lori

[budindian]

He is eating and drinking and he had a bowel movement as soon as we got to the emergency vet and it was a hard stool. No vomiting .
I talked to his vet today to make an appointment to get the ACTH test done and she said the blood work that was done at the ER did not show his electrolytes were low but she said to stop the Vetoryl for a few days or at least until I take him Thursday for the test. He did pee in the house a couple of times Saturday before I took him in.
I will post the results when I get them on Thursday.

[molly muffin]

Hopefully the antibiotic will help him and he will feel better. I always stop Molly's Cushing meds when she gets a gastro upset and the restart when she is back to herself.

[budindian]

Thank you, I hope so to. Bandit will be 14 in March and I know he is getting older but it is still hard to watch him when he is not feeling good. I can't imagine my life without him but I know its coming, hopefully later rather than sooner.

[budindian]

I will post his last couple of test results when I get home. I was holding him on my lap last night and he sounded congested in his nose area like he was having trouble breathing threw his nose, he has such a short snout . Maybe its a cold or his sinuses. I keep going back and forth maybe this, maybe that, I'll just feel better when he is feeling better. I will request a urine culture just to rule that out. Thanks for the help.

[budindian]

Its funny I'm the strong one when the kids or grandkids are sick or something is going on with them and this little , precious dog gets sick and I'm falling apart.

[molly muffin]

They are so reliant on us I think we just all panic at the what if's that exist in our lives when it comes to them.

[labblab]

He is eating and drinking and he had a bowel movement as soon as we got to the emergency vet and it was a hard stool. No vomiting .
I talked to his vet today to make an appointment to get the ACTH test done and she said the blood work that was done at the ER did not show his electrolytes were low but she said to stop the Vetoryl for a few days or at least until I take him Thursday for the test. He did pee in the house a couple of times Saturday before I took him in.
I will post the results when I get them on Thursday.
I surely hope Bandit is feeling better, but it will definitely be interesting to see where his cortisol level is after a few days off the trilostane. What we have discovered is that the Cushing's meds can end up pushing cortisol levels too low even when the electrolytes stay within normal range. For this reason, some ER vets who are not really familiar with these drugs assume that as long as the electrolytes are OK, the dog can't be experiencing an Addisonian reaction to the drug. But this is not necessarily true. So I'm glad you are having the ACTH done tomorrow and will be very interested in the results.

Marianne

[budindian]

Well Bandit had a bad night , I could hear him coughing and he was congested, so I took him to the vet this morning, they wanted to keep him and do x-rays of his lungs and heart. I might put off the ACTH test until he is feeling better. I am going to call them at 12 and see if I can pick him up and get xray results. Prayers for me and Bandit.

[budindian]

The vet called and Bandit has fluid on his lungs and his heart is a little enlarged so they are going to keep him for the rest of today to watch him and make sure the meds are working. They are going to run more test to check his kidneys and other things. I am going to reschedule the ACTH test for now. I am going to call before I leave work to see if he can come home today.

[judymaggie]

So sorry to hear that Bandit is feeling poorly -- you were definitely on top of things in taking him to the vet so quickly. Sending healing thoughts your way!

[budindian]

Thanks so much ! Feeling a little better about the situation now that I at least know whats bothering him.

[molly muffin]

I'm glad they caught this and Judy is right, good on you for getting him in right away. Are they letting you bring him home? What did they prescribe or say caused this?

[budindian]

Wow , I've been so concerned on what was wrong I didn't think to ask what caused this. I have to call his regular vet today to see if its ok to start him back on the Vertoryl so I'll ask. I don't have the names of the medicine with me but she said one was a water pill and one was for his heart, to keep the blood flowing in and out. I think a friend said it is like a blood pressure med.
I guess I know him and he really has never been sick so when he was just laying around I knew that was not normal and he wasn't feeling well. If he isn't crying for a treat, there is something wrong and he didn't want a treat.

[molly muffin]

How is Bandit doing? Hopefully recovering well.

[budindian]

He is doing about the same, which means not a lot of energy , only eating enough to sustain him but he is with me. I take him back to the vet on Wednesday to make sure the meds are working the way they should or to see if the dosage needs to be tweeked.. I have been so depressed but I got to thinking over the weekend it takes people a couple of weeks for the meds to fully do there job so maybe it is going to take time for him to get back to a little bit of normal or he may never be the same again, either way I'll take it .
His breathing is a lot better and I'm grateful for that.

[Joan2517]

Me too...it's more nerve wracking because they depend on us for everything and they never grow out of it like kids and grandkids do...

[budindian]

I know and they can't tell us where they hurt or how they are feeling. I panicked this morning when he wouldn't eat his dog food with the meds in it so I gave him meatloaf I had left over from dinner and he got his meds. I wasn't going to work until he took his meds.
Someone I work with said "its just a dog" and I told them no he is not he is a member of my family, I've loved and cared for him for 14 years, he is not just a dog.

[Joan2517]

I hate it when people say that!! They don't know what it feels like to love and be loved by our pets. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm crazy or not. My pets are my children, the ones who don't grow up and leave me...LOL! They just don't live as long as we want them too.

[budindian]

Thank You, I agree 100%.

[Harley PoMMom]

Yep, it makes me so mad when people say "it's just a dog" :mad::mad: I do feel kinda sorry for those people because they have no idea what they are missing :(

What's the name of the BP medication Bandit is taking? Blood pressure medications may cause tummy upsets, so this could be the reason Bandit has lost some of his appetite.

Also here is a link to an article on the dogaware site with a list of foods to tempt a picky eater: Foods to tempt your dog (http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjinappetence.html#tempt)

Hugs, Lori

[Roxie]

I know and they can't tell us where they hurt or how they are feeling. I panicked this morning when he wouldn't eat his dog food with the meds in it so I gave him meatloaf I had left over from dinner and he got his meds. I wasn't going to work until he took his meds.
Someone I work with said "its just a dog" and I told them no he is not he is a member of my family, I've loved and cared for him for 14 years, he is not just a dog.

It might be just a dog to some people! But for most of us they are members of our families!

[budindian]

I never looked at it as look what they are missing for people that say its just a dog, but you are so right, They are missing so much.
Thanks for the link to different ideas for feeding him when he will barely eat, it is going to help a lot. The people on this forum are truly the best.
I will post the name of his meds this evening. I was going to look up both of them to see what the side effects are but have not done so yet. All I can remember is it starts with an A. I'm at work and will post it when I get home. Can't wait to get to the vet tomorrow to see what she has to say.

[budindian]

I'm sorry I didn't put in Bandits meds but I couldn't get login from home, I couldn't remember my user name or password, and then I didn't work yesterday. I took Bandit to the vet yesterday and his lungs sounded clear so no changes in the meds at this time. I started him back on his Vetoryl this morning so I will see if he starts acting like his old self again anytime soon. He is getting old and he has two issues going on so he may never get back to normal and that's ok.
The heart meds he is on is Enalapril maleate 5mg. The water pill is
Furosemide 50mg but I give him 1/2 a tablet 2 times a day. I did look up the side effects and lack of appetite is a side effect.

[molly muffin]

oh hard when the pills make the appetite not so good.
I am constantly introducing stuff to try to encourage molly to eat. She's become quite finicky.
I rotate between can foods she likes on top of the dry to entice her to eat a bit and if nothing works. I cook her some chicken.

[labblab]

Just wanted to pop in to let you know that we've sent you both an email and a Private Message about your password issue. So hopefully you'll receive the message one way or the other! :)

Marianne

[budindian]

Well I started Bandit back on the Vetoryl yesterday morning and now he will not eat anything. I am so distraught I don't know what to do. I am going to try some of the things on the link that was sent to me about appetite and things to try. I didn't give him any medicine this morning and I'm hoping his appetite will return.
Thank you for the message about my sign in , I will try to to sign in from home and remember my password first before its changed.

[budindian]

At this point with Bandit not eating do I let him die of heart disease, effects from not taking the cushings meds or starve to death, not much of a choice so I'm calling the vet today and I'm just going to try to get him to eat something, at this point I feel that's the most important. I'm rambling but Thanks for listening it really helps.

[molly muffin]

Does he have to be on the heart meds forever?

What did the vet say about his not eating?
He has to eat, although drinking is probably the most important.

Nutrical for dogs might help to get some nutrients into him.

[Tammysmom]

Hello Bandits mom, how is your little boy today. Did you get him to eat or drink. Can you give him water in a dropper. If he needs to have his heart med, could you crush into a liquid and give in a dropper. We do that at the home I work at. But never the time release. Maybe check with your vet first. You are doing the best you can for him. And he is not just a dog. He is your little boy. When my Tammy turned 12, some people would say she is getting to be a granny. I just said ,well if we are blessed to live long enough, one day we will be a granny too. Brianna

[Joan2517]

Hi, just popping in to say I'm hoping Bandit is doing okay....

Joan

[budindian]

Thank you all so much !!!!!!!!! I took Bandit to the vet on Friday, and if they couldn't get him to eat I was going to let him go, hardest decision I ever had to make BUT I took him to the vet and she gave him an appetite stimulant and a B12 shot, something worked, I got him home and about an hour later he was hungry and acting much better. The vet said she thought it was introducing the Vetoryl back into the mix, so for now no Vetoryl . Yes, he will have to be on the heart meds the rest of his life. Saturday back to not eating so I called the vet and went and picked up the appetite stimulant and he ate good Saturday evening so on Sunday I thought I'll see how he does without it and he ate on his own on Sunday. I don't like to cook and don't very often but I cooked all weekend for Bandit, his preference right now is boiled chicken and deli turkey. I think I'm going to have a hard time getting him back on dog food. We go back to the vet on Thursday so I'm going to suggest giving him the heart meds at night and when we start the Vetoryl again starting on a very low dose and working our way back up and see what they think, but it will be a while before I start him back on that. Once he has been stable for a while , I'm taking him for the ACTH test first.

[budindian]

I really need to remember my password so I can get login at home, and be able to update., so if I don't post on the weekend that's why. I really appreciate this site more than you know. The people that help on here, you really need to know you are the best and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[Joan2517]

Yay! I don't cook anymore either...only for the dogs! Amazing what we will do for our sweet babies!

[Harley PoMMom]

I really need to remember my password so I can get login at home, and be able to update., so if I don't post on the weekend that's why. I really appreciate this site more than you know. The people that help on here, you really need to know you are the best and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

If you forget your password just email us at k9cushings@gmail.com ;)

[molly muffin]

I think him being stable for awhile is probably a good option. I don't know that I'd want him to go super long without control of the cortisol, so you Will want to recheck that, as high cortisol can be hard on the heart too.

Did you ever get his lab results?

[budindian]

No , I didn't get the lab results, I've been so caught up in getting him better, that is something I will try to get done. I want to give him another week or two of just being ok, and I'll take him for the ACTH test. I had him scheduled twice for that and had to reschedule, once because of the weather and the other time for the sickness. I know I'm walking a fine line with his issues, I figure first things first.
He is eating ok right now as long as it is cooked chicken or turkey, I'm trying to incorporate dog food back in the mix but he will eat around the dog food to get to the good stuff.

[budindian]

What lab results was I supposed to post ? he had blood work at the vet but that's all he has had done lately.
He is still stable .:)

[molly muffin]

I was just wondering what labs where off and what his last ACTH results where prior to this happening.

[budindian]

Ok. I will find those and post them. I had him scheduled for one in December but our weather was bad so I had to cancel so its been probably to long since he has had one.
I took him back to the vet this morning, he has not lost anymore weight, which is good. I didn't see his usual vet and this vet said everything I want to do was fine, since he is stabilized. I want to start giving him his heart meds at night and once I feel he tolerates that well I am going to start him back on the Vetoryl at a very low dose and work back up. The vet said I could give him a vitamin since all he eats now is chicken and deli turkey. Can anyone recommend a good multivitamin for dogs? Taking him to the vet just wears him out but they said he doesn't need to come back unless there is a problem , which I hope is a long,long time.

[molly muffin]

It's always good to have a plan.

[budindian]

Just checking in, my little Bandit is doing about the same, not bad or worse just back to being ok. Now getting him back on the Vetoryl that's our next challenge but I'm up for it, I think.

[Roxie]

Just checking in, my little Bandit is doing about the same, not bad or worse just back to being ok. Now getting him back on the Vetoryl that's our next challenge but I'm up for it, I think.

I am pulling for you and Bandit!:)

[molly muffin]

Glad to hear he is holding his own and do better than he was.

Crossed fingers!

[budindian]

Thanks so much, I really thought I was going to lose him last week.

[Joan2517]

Glad he's doing better....it is such a scary feeling when you think you're losing them...I get panic-stricken!

[budindian]

Thank you Joan, I was very torn. I got him groomed on Saturday and he is having a little trouble recouping. Hopefully he is resting today.
I was grief stricken just thinking about losing him. Now I just love him and spoil him more, because now I know he may not be with me much longer.

[Joan2517]

Thank you Joan, I was very torn. I got him groomed on Saturday and he is having a little trouble recouping. Hopefully he is resting today.
I was grief stricken just thinking about losing him. Now I just love him and spoil him more, because now I know he may not be with me much longer.
That's what I did with Lena...and I would do it all over again. Spoil, spoil, spoil. She was the most spoiled little girl, but she was always good about it. Never bit anyone, or growled at anyone and was the perfect little houseguest. I miss her so, so much.

[molly muffin]

Spoiling them is the best part. :) I love to spoil molly too.

[budindian]

It is with great sadness to say My precious little Bandit crossed the rainbow bridge yesterday, he just couldn't fight the heart disease and cushings any longer. My heart is broken but I couldn't watch him suffer any longer. The last couple of days he progressively went down hill.
Thank you all so much for your support it helped me so much.

[judymaggie]

My heart goes out to you during this difficult time. Bandit was a strong warrior and you were a wonderful mom and advocate for him.

[Joan2517]

Oh no...I am so, so sorry...my heart goes out to you.

[Tammysmom]

Very sorry for the loss of your sweet Bandit. Bandit knew he had a great mom. You loved him and always will. Thoughts and prayers. Brianna

[molly muffin]

Oh No! I am so sorry to read this as I really hoped it was going to make a recovery. That little boy and you just gave it your all.
I send my sincerest condolences. Your little Bandit will be missed by all.

:(

[mytil]

I am so incredibly sorry for your loss - your sweet Bandit will be keeping an eye on you.

((((hugs))))
Terry

[budindian]

Thank you all so very much, still in shock, trying to get used to a life without him. I don't know what Bandit or I would have done without this site. It also offers grief support which I have been taking advantage of. Thanks to whoever started this just know you help so many. I will probably stop in still even tho my beautiful little cushpup is gone.

[Joan2517]

I feel the same way...and have been thinking of you all week.

[molly muffin]

You will always be welcome here.

There's are still early days and grief is a bugger. So remember to take time to smile once a day at something, anything about bandit. Something he did or didn't do, something that just makes you smile. Grief and sadness are going to be there but injecting a tiny smile often can help too.

[mytil]

I agree you are always welcome here; so take advantage :)!!!! You and Bandit are part of our Cushing's family.

Many here have and are experiencing the tremendous grief of loosing a furbaby so we know what you are going through and will go through. Take your time and be kind to yourself.

Terry

[glfprncs]

My condolences on the loss of your sweet Bandit. Just know that you gave him a wonderful life, and did the best by him in the end. Take time to grieve, but also remember his life with happiness and joy.

[budindian]

Well it has been one week today and my heart still hurts and will for a very long time I'm sure. I've been thinking about the joy he brought to my life and it was immeasurable.

Thank you everyone again. I feel peace visiting this site, I feel Bandit would not have lasted as long as he did without your help.
Bandit did have a very good life, he was loved and fretted over all the time and that makes me feel better when I think about it.

[molly muffin]

Awww, I'm sure that you are missing Bandit something awful. They are such a huge part of our lives.

I think it's fabulous that you can think of him and the good times he had with you though. That is really important.

[Tammysmom]

Dear Bandits mom. I know how much you miss your little sweetheart. My Tammys been gone a month. I, like you, now think more about the happy times than the sad ones. I look at her pictures and think about her life. I can tell by Bandits picture that he had a great life. One filled with love, joy, happiness, fun and yes I can tell he was spoiled. What a great mom you were. Brianna

[WeLoveAthena]

Oh my gosh. We are so very sorry for the loss of your sweet Bandit.
Sending you lots of hugs. Soooooooooo very sorry :-(
Remember Bandit will always live in your heart.

[budindian]

Thank you so much. When does the longing and heartache stop ?

[Joan2517]

I wish I knew...I miss Lena every second of every day, so I know how you feel.

Joan

[Tammysmom]

My dear Bandits mom. I wish I had an answer to your question, but I do not. Everyone handles grief and loss in different ways. For me, the road to healing will be long. There are days when I think of the good life we shared, filled with so much love and laughter. Than there are the days, of what some might call Tammy moments. when as soon as I get home from work ,I cry my eyes out. These are all normal emotions. Please take baby steps and let yourself cry as much as you want. Get mad. That's good. Look at his pictures, remember how he made you laugh like no one else could. Time is the only healer, and even than, something will always be missing. Please take care of yourself. Bandit was a very lucky boy . He knows he had the best life possible. Big hugs. Brianna

[budindian]

Thank you and I'm very sorry for your losses also. We will get thru this. I am starting to get better but I know it will be a long journey.
Thank you again.

[mytil]

Firstly, my continued (((hugs))) to you.

Secondly do not try to make it stop --- what you are feeling is pure raw grief. Grieving is a series that we must go through, but I promise you will get through and we will help you. It will be the little things that will catch you so be kind to yourself during this time.

I know first hand ---- I went through this kind of grief years ago and I still shed a few tears every now and then, but the happy memories make me smile too and you will too when you think of the wonderful memories.

When you feel up to it, we would love to hear more about your life with your Bandit --- we have a very special In Loving Memory section if you want to start a new thread that is fine.

Terry

[budindian]

Thank You Terry and in time maybe I can share. I just find comfort here, I never thought about the other section but I don't think I can do that at this time, I will see Bandits name and the hurt will begin again. I really appreciate everyone's help I didn't think it would be this hard. Hearing from people here that have or are going thru the same thing helps. I know I keep saying this but I am getting better, I going thru grieving process but I'm starting to heal.

[Joan2517]

It is so very hard...but I put one of my favorite pictures of her there and I just go in and "talk" to my Lena. I don't know why, but it makes me feel just a little closer to her when I write her about how I am feeling and how much I miss her.

The thoughts are always in my head and heart anyway.....

[budindian]

I've been thinking about getting another dog but I'm back and forth on it. I know several people that have lost dogs in the last year and got another baby, they said it has helped. I just fear my next dog will get cushings and I don't know if I can go thru it again. I feel I have learned a lot from my experience with Bandit if it did happen. What to do, what to do.

[judymaggie]

Hi! I just wanted to share my personal experience with getting a dog after my first Cush pup, Maggie, a beagle, passed away. I knew I would want another dog eventually but figured I would wait at least a year. I didn't quite make the year -- I completed the adoption application for the local beagle rescue. About seven months later a personal friend who is on the board of the rescue contacted me to tell me that she had the perfect beagle for me! She knew I wanted an older beagle who was affectionate and liked to snuggle. I met 7 year old Abbie and fell in love. :D She was recovering from surgery for a mammary tumor and was also heartworm positive. Abbie came to me about a month later. Two weeks later Abbie underwent a bilateral mastectomy followed by two other surgeries. She bounced back from each surgery with ease. Then, in the summer of 2014, several red flags went up as she started drinking huge amounts of water and eating everything in sight. Yup, you guessed it-- Abbie was diagnosed with Cushing's.

Honestly, after everything else that Abbie and I had experienced before that time, the Cushing's diagnosis was not traumatic at all. I had recently retired so knew that I would have more time to spend with her. After a break from this forum, I returned to get a refresher course! After unsuccessful treatment with Lysodren, Abbie's Cushing's is now well controlled with Vetoryl. She had spinal surgery a month ago and, just as she did when she was younger, has bounced back amazingly well. Abbie is almost 13 and, considering everything she has been through, continues to be a trooper.

I don't know if any of this helps you but just know that you could, indeed, help another Cush pup if things worked out that way.

[budindian]

Thank you for that, yes it helps. I don't know yet but if one finds me I won't turn the other way. I'm afraid if I get one to soon, I'll be disappointed and won't be able to give him/her the love they deserve.

[budindian]

Wow Abbie has really been thru a lot, I am so happy she is still going strong. I hope she continues to do good. Your a very special person for taking care of her the way you do, she is very lucky.

[molly muffin]

I think that is the key, you have to find each other. I really believe that connections between animal and human are important for that long term bond of love and devotion. It may not be the one you think it will be but when you can't walk away, then you know. This one is meant for me.
It won't replace Bandit, never that, but a new relationship will form. A dog who needs you and you need him/her. That is a building block.
I wouldn't rush and say this week or wait a year. It just happens when it happens.

[mytil]

I agree with Sharlene, give yourself some time before deciding on getting another dog. One day you will just look up and this dog will be there - that is how it happened to me. After loosing Mytilda, I waited a year and a bit and then these two little abandoned girls just happened to pop up, saw their faces and that was that.

When you feel up to it, there is another alternative and that is to foster from a local shelter or rescue until you are ready.

Terry

[budindian]

I really miss my baby today. No make that everyday. Just saying.

[Joan2517]

Me too...constantly.

[Harley PoMMom]

(((Hugs)))

[Joan2517]

Afterlife & A Loss For Words
A sweet little poem and picture I saw on Facebook. For those who may have lost a pet.

Afterlife & A Loss For Words

I stood by your bed last night, I came to have a peep.
I could see that you were crying...you found it hard to sleep.

I whined to you softly as you brushed away a tear.
"It's me, I haven't left you...I'm well, I'm fine, I'm here."

I was close to you at breakfast, I watched you pour the tea.
You were thinking of the many times, your hands reached down to me.

I was with you at the shops today, your arms were getting sore.
I longed to take your parcels, I wish I could do more.

I was with you at my grave today, you tend it with such care.
I want to reassure you that I am not lying there.

I walked with you toward the house, as you fumbled for your key,
I gently put my paw on you. I smiled and said, "It's me."

You looked so very tired, and sank into a chair.
I tried so hard to let you know that I was standing there.

It's possible for me to be so near you every day.
To say to you with certainty, "I never went away."

You sat there very quietly, then smiled, I think you knew...
In the stillness of that evening, I was very close to you.

The day is over...I smile and watch you yawning
And say, "Goodnight, God bless, I'll see you in the morning."

And when the time is right for you to cross the brief divide,
I'll rush across to greet you and we will stand, side-by-side.

I have so many things to show you, there is so much for you to see.
Be patient, live your journey out...then come home to be with me.

-Author Unknown


I found this on Facebook last year, I think, and it is so pretty....

[budindian]

I love that, it is very pretty.

[molly muffin]

I just want to wish you a Happy Easter and send you a hug as I'm sure it will be hard with Bandit gone. It is always hard on these 'first'

[budindian]

Thank you so much, it was hard but I felt him with me and I needed that.

[budindian]

Is there a breed that does not get cushings ? Just curious

[Allison]

Belated condolence's to you on your loss of Bandit. I've been reading through this thread and wanted to offer my own thoughts too.

As others have said, allow yourself to grieve and accept that it is part of the experience of giving your heart and love. Bandit was a close companion. He should be mourned. We lost our senior adopted dog after only three years with him but still felt the ache for months later over his death.

Also, give yourself time to decide whether to get another dog. When my husband and I lost our first cat, we got a second in only a month. Yet there have been times when I have taken a year before I could get another pet. You'll know when the time is right for you.

As for whether your next dog might have Cushings, I understand those fears too. We lost our first cat to kidney failure and that is always in the back of my mind with our new cats. Yet I agree with others that you might find this time around easier to handle. The vet has suggested that we might test our toy poodle for Cushings, because he's showing a few symptoms. While my husband and I both dread the thought, I also feel we would better handle the disease should it happen.

Hugs!

[budindian]

Thank you so much, I am going to wait and let another furbaby pick me as my Bandit did, I have all the time in the world now.
its been over a month and I still grieve for him, he was such a big part of my life, he was like one of my children. I do think if my next baby gets cushings I will handle it much differently, I'm just sorry Bandit had to be the one I learned on. Thanks again for your kind words.

[molly muffin]

Well I think you're Very pickable :) :)

[budindian]

Well Thank you very much, that makes me feel good.

[budindian]

I saw a little 5 year old Jack Russell on a rescue website for my area and he was so cute I thought what the heck, I'll go for it.
Long story short a lot of people were interested and he got adopted right away. I thought it just wasn't meant to be there will be another little furbaby that maybe will need a home more.
The closer it got to finding out if I would get him I got real nervous, like I was doing something wrong and I found myself feeling guilty for wanting a little life back in my house since losing my Bandit. Does that mean I'm not ready yet or is that normal ?

[Joan2517]

I'm feeling the same way with Sibbie...every time I find myself thinking about how cute she is, or how cute something is that she's done, I feel guilty. Like I'm forgetting about Lena (which of course I am NOT), so I think it's just normal. Maybe we're starting to heal.

I loved Lena more than any other animal I have ever owned and I know she knew it...she was never jealous or spiteful around any of the others, so I know she was secure in her place in my heart. I think Bandit felt the same...so we're not doing anything wrong. And to give your love to a shelter animal? I think Bandit would be very proud of his mom.

[DoxieMama]

When we first bought our house, I went to the local shelter and brought home a "black lab mix" puppy, Jupiter, who was about 4 months old at the time. A few months later, my husband got our dachshund for me and our boys as a Christmas gift. The two dogs really got along well, though there was a minor scuffle here and there. They both were a great fit for our family.

I had been considering getting a third dog and while somewhat halfheartedly looking, Jupiter was diagnosed with lymphoma. We opted not to put him through treatment and focused on providing the best life possible, with food, supplements and meds to treat symptoms. He was given 4 months to live. :( Six months later, he was still with us, but struggling.... and I came across a picture of this adorable puppy online. I wasn't really looking, but a friend had shared a picture on social media of another puppy, I poked around a little and saw this one. I took the doxie with me and drove two hours to meet this puppy. Jupiter always got along with everyone and since he wasn't feeling well, he stayed home. The doxie and puppy got along great, so we brought home Jackson.

Their introduction did not go very well, and due to that (and Jupiter really not feeling well anyway) Jupiter did not get along with Jackson. Not a week later, Jupiter passed away from his lymphoma.

I felt guilty for so many reasons, not the least of which was having this adorable little puppy that brought me such joy and comfort, especially having brought him home when I did. But Jackson is the BEST dog for our family, and sometimes I still feel a little guilty thinking that, but he really fits in SO well. (This includes fitting in with the other dogs... Jupiter may not have wanted him nearby, but Jackson listened to his warnings and didn't push it. He learns from his elders and other family members.)

That does not mean I miss Jupiter any less, didn't care for him as best I could, or didn't think the world of him, too. Nor does it mean I don't love my doxie less - he's my baby dog, after all. He's my little love. Yet Jackson is this furball of energy with the funnest personality, quirky and... just perfect for us. I love them all.

We're their adopted parents, right? It's just like when we have our first kid, I think. They're the greatest thing ever. Then we have a second one, and they're the greatest thing ever, too! How is that possible? How can they both be the greatest thing ever? *shrug* It just is. :) (I can't speak to more kids cause I only have two. But I suspect it's the same... just as my 3 dogs are all special in their own ways.)

When you're ready, I truly believe the right dog will find you. You can share stories of Bandit with that new family member, as I share stories of Jupiter with Jackson. It'll all be just fine.

Hugs,
Shana

[molly muffin]

I know you adore Betty but I do understand the desire to have noise and joy and bouncy around the house too.
For the moment, enjoy Betty, take those walks with her and spend time with her and when the connection happens, it will be right for another one to join the clan.

[budindian]

Thank you all so much, that's why I keep coming to this site.

There was a little Silky Terrier my kids were going to rescue for me and then keep it until I was ready, however that did not work out.
I went on the rescue site and he was gone, he was adopted, so every now and then I check the site. Something kept telling me to look at the site yesterday and low and behold he is back. They said he has behavior problems, so I'm going on Saturday to meet the little guy and find out exactly what his issues are. Honestly on the site in his description, he just sounded a little spoiled and I'm already used to that. I do feel like this little guy would be a good fit.
The rescue group says they will help getting all behavior issues resolved. I'm not going to get my hopes up .

[Joan2517]

Good for you! I hope it's a good fit...

[DoxieMama]

Oh, please let us know what you find out about that little one.

[budindian]

Thanks , I will keep you posted and try to post a picture if I get him.
I think I just need some life in my house and he sounds like he can do just that. If it doesn't work out I think I will quit looking for a while.

[molly muffin]

A silky terrier. They can be tricky, which is why they often are considered difficult dogs. They just have a mind of their own, need to be socialized at an early age, so they get along with other dogs and don't guard their food and are a dickens to house break sometimes. So that could be the behavioral issues that they are thinking of.

They are also a total joy if they fit in at your home. Need a lot of exercise to keep them settled, so put on your walking shoes. :)

We'd definitely want to see a picture if this little guy joins your home.

[budindian]

Well I went and met him on Saturday ( he is so cute) . A lady that knows him quite well and works with dogs with behavior issues is going to bring him to my house on Friday evening to introduce him to Betty, if all goes well he will be mine.
Food guarding is one of his issues, and he is a bossy little guy, but I think I'm up for the challenge. I found out he had been adopted out 3 or 4 different times and taken back, poor thing, no wonder he has issues, it didn't sound like he had gotten much of a chance. They did say he does very well with going out to use the bathroom., that was a big concern.

[Joan2517]

Oh, I hope it works out~ He sounds adorable, the poor little guy.

[molly muffin]

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[budindian]

Well, I got the little guy, his name is Sammy, I put a picture in my photos. He is so darn cute, he is not a food guarder but he does tend to be a little aggressive toward other people but I think that can be worked on. I stepped out to get my mail yesterday and left the door opened a very little and he ran out and tried to bite the google worker on the butt. The guy laughed but I'm really going to have to be careful not to leave the door open even a crack.
The last person who had him they said they think hit him, he is so little and cute who could hit him ? Who could be mean to any animal ? Regardless of his short falls I am not going to give up on him so he has found his forever home. I'll try to put more pictures on of him and Betty. Thanks so much for being here.

[Joan2517]

He is a cutie! What a big smile...

[labblab]

Omigosh but he is sooooooooooooooo cute!!!!! :) :) :)

He looks just like a little stuffed toy doggie. ;)

He is so lucky to have found his way to you. Definitely keep us updated all along the way, OK? Another journey begins, and I know Bandit would be so proud of you for giving this little guy a chance to be loved and cared for in the way he deserves.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

He is quite adorable! Looks like he'll be the life of the house. :)

Congratulations.

[budindian]

Thank you all, he is a character, keeps me on my toes, reminds me a lot of Bandit when he was younger. I will try to post more pictures if I can get him to hold still long enough.

[Joan2517]

Sounds like Sibbie! I have a hard time getting pictures, too. Every time I try, she's off to some other adventure, something else to chew on, or another dog to torment!

Lena was always so good about pictures until she started not feeling well. Then she would either close her eyes or turn away from the camera...I have a lot of pictures with her back to me!