Radar, newly diagnosed

[Yatese]

In 2011 my 12 year old dog had a small "seizure", disorientation, vet did LDDS test no Cushings, but very high ALK reading.

Recently tested for Atypical positive. he is basically asymptomatic. He has had 5 "seizures'" in 5 years 2 in 2011, 2 in 2012 one this year. So far he is a happy 12 year old dog.

After much reading & conferring with vet we are going to try HMR Lignans & Melatonin, both suggested by the Univ. of Tenn. His #'s are:
cortisol:8.6..................................norm al <1.0-5.6
androstenedione: 0 .77.................."......... 0.5-0.36
estradiol: 66.4.............................."......... 23.1-65.1
17 OH progesterone: 0.33............."......... 0.25-2.63
testosterone: <15.0 (normal)

Any one ever had experience with Cushex? I also read that Vetoryl should not be used for dogs with Atypical. & that they only need 1/2 dose of Lysodern if I chose that.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I also believe in the power of prayer.

Thank you all

[Squirt's Mom]

Would you mind editing your post and adding the normal ranges for each value? Thanks! I could pop the ranges in from some of our tests but it seems that UTK has made some changes and I don't think the ranges they used then are what they use now. ;)

Cushex - don't waste your money. While it currently doesn't contain anything that is really harmful to a cush pup, there is nothing in it that will address the hormones that are out of range. The formula has changed several times over the 7 years I've been aware of it, tho, without warning. If it worked, UTK would recommend it. If it worked, NO ONE would use drugs like Lysodren or Vetoryl to treat this disease. The only ones who benefit from Cushex are those who sell it and prey on the fears of cush parents. ;)

The lignans and melatonin requires patience on your part. This treatment can take up to 4 months to show improvements. The flip side is that this is a very benign treatment and it does work - my Squirt was on the flax lignans and melatonin for about 3 years and she was well controlled. We did try the spruce lignans (HMR) but we lost control so we returned to the flax lignans (SDG). When her cortisol started to rise, we added the Lyso as maintenance only - no loading for Atypical pups. Another plus for Atypical Cushing's. ;)

The Lysodren can address all of the intermediate with the possible exception of the estradiol. All of the intermediates are produced by the adrenal glands but estradiol can also be produced outside the adrenals in some pretty strange places, like hair follicles or fatty tissue. When estradiol is being produced outside the adrenals, Lyso can't reach it because it works only on the adrenal glands. Because the lignans and melatonin can reach outside the adrenal glands to find hormones elsewhere and control them, and because it is a more benign treatment, this is the first step in Atypical. If the other hormones are not coming down as needed after four months or so, then the Lyso is added.

If Lyso is needed for an Atypical pup, the dose is figured the same - 25-50mg/kg. It will be given 2-4 times a week, not daily, tho. It's not up to use to chose to use the Lyso - the tests will indicate if that is needed based on how well the lignans and melatonin are working. And you are correct - Vetoryl (Trilostane) has been proven to cause elevations in the intermediates involved in Atypical so UTK does not recommend it for Atypical pups but recommends Lyso instead.

Bear in mind that Atypical is still a controversial diagnosis. Studies show that most dogs with elevated cortisol also have elevated intermediate hormones. Most Atypical pups seem to develop true Cushing's later on, but not all by any means. So some vets feel there is no such thing as Atypical Cushing's but instead this is a sort of "pre" condition. I don't agree with them. But I am not a vet by any stretch of the imagination. BUT I did see what this treatment did for my baby, how it improved her life and how it changed her chemistry positively. So I KNOW in my heart there is such a thing as Atypical Cushing's and I KNOW this treatment works. ;):D

[Yatese]

Thank you so much for the info. Hope I am reading the results right.
First category is Result (baseline) that is what I posted, next Normal Range, next, Result (post ATCH), next, Normal Range (post ACTH
Result (post ACTH) much higher than Result (baseline)????

I do not think my vet has much experience with this. So far Radar acts & looks pretty normal. :o

[Squirt's Mom]

I took the liberty of moving these posts into a new thread that is just for Radar. Now he has his very own thread! It will be easier for everyone to keep up with his journey this way plus this thread can act as a sort of diary or journal for you.


cortisol: 8.6..................................normal <1.0-5.6

There should have been two number for each of those values, a pre and post number. You say you posted the first number, the baseline numbers (in bold above)? We will need to see both numbers, especially the second or post number, which is the most important. See, you've already learned something this morning! :D

BUT you say he isn't showing any signs. The signs are as important as the numbers. Here is a list of the most common signs -

• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures

Does Radar show any of these other than seizure?

[labblab]

Thank you so much for the info. Hope I am reading the results right.
First category is Result (baseline) that is what I posted, next Normal Range, next, Result (post ATCH), next, Normal Range (post ACTH
Result (post ACTH) much higher than Result (baseline)????


Unfortunately, the only numbers I am seeing in your first reply are what appear to be the baseline reading, as well as the normal range for the baseline. We are missing the second pair of numbers for each of the hormones: the post-ACTH results as well as the the normal ranges for them. The post-ACTH numbers are really the ones that have diagnostic significance, so that is really the set we are most interested in. Can you double-check your report one more time? Thanks so much!

Also, do you still want your username changed? I will be happy to do that. Just reconfirm that you want it done, and I will make the change the next time I log in again myself after seeing your reply here telling me to go ahead.

Marianne