Annie--Cushings symptoms but not Cushings--Suggestions?

[irmaly]

Hi, everyone. Our beloved and treasured little Annie Do is approximately 8 years old. She is one of our two adopted pups. Rosie, our other pup and Annie's bestest friend in the whole wide world, is around 14-15 years old.

Annie keeps our household in laughter and antics. She is highly energetic, loves everyone, would rather share her toys and treats than fight for them, and is funny. She talks a lot, sings birthday wishes beautifully, and is insistent on her way. She herds our whole family (which includes Rosie, Annie, my husband and me) to the door each morning for the daily walk/run. She is a diva. She doesn't like things out of place. She won't sit on a blanket if it isn't smooth, and she nags you to fix a pillow that isn't sitting just right on her chair. If someone sits in her chair, she stares at them until they get up. She was hard to house train from the get go (but we're good there now), chewed my oak steps and kitchen walls when she was a puppy, took forever to learn to come when called, and tries to sneak little things she finds out and about (like feathers and berries) into the house to examine them more closely. She is also a groundhog killer and rabbit droppings eater.

On the face of it Annie Do doesn't seem afraid of anything. But I've got her number. She gets scared pretty easily. She hyperventilates when scared and screams at the vet's. She doesn't like to be picked up by anyone, but loves to snuggle and be petted. She likes to be in control, and if something is wrong in even the slightest way, she freaks.

I had noticed some unusual panting over the last week or two, but it wasn't consistent and didn't seem stressful. I also noticed that Annie was drinking a bit more water but it didn't seem to be anything really wacky. She was her usual bright, energetic self with no changes in personality or eating at all. Then, last Tuesday night, Annie Do got me out of bed at 5:30AM to go outside. Not common but certainly has happened from time to time. When she returned inside (and I had hoped for another hour's sleep), she paced and panted and continually asked to go outside. Which I obliged and caught her licking snow. Once all of us were up, we went on our usual walk/run. Annie was her usual energetic self. But once home, she continued her pacing and panting and seemed very freaked. She was entirely restless and couldn't stay in one place or lie down for more than a minute at best. And she was drinking a lot of water.

I got online. What I read made us head for the emergency vet (our regular vet is closed on Wednesdays) right away. Of course Annie was uncooperative but they nonetheless got bloodwork done. Here were where her numbers were not normal:

RBC: 10.05: 5.50-8.50 10^12/I
HGB: 21.8: 12.0-18.0 g/dl
HCT: 63.99: 37.00-55.00%
MPV: 12.4: 3.9-11.1 fl
ALB: 4.4: 2.5-4.4 g/dL
ALP: 446: 20-150 U/L
Glucose on the high end of normal: 110: 60-110 mg/dL
SPGr: 1.010
UA Analyzer: 8.0 ph 100 Leu/uL

The emergency vet (who I thought was okay, but who my husband was totally unimpressed with--as was Annie) suggested three things: (1) Annie was not dehydrated and has normally elevated red blood cells, or (2) Annie was dehydrated but has a condition that keeps her from concentrating her urine--Cushings, early Kidney disease, or Diabetes Insipidus, or (3) Annie was drinking too much water due to an E. Coli infection (no infection was found in her urine sample). After determining that Annie was not in imminent danger of dying overnight, we returned home to visit our regular vet the next day (she has treated Annie all of Annie's life and has all her records there). We got the emergency vet to fax Annie's numbers and her findings/suspicions over to our regular vet that night. Plus that I got to do some reading and found and bookmarked you. I put full water bowls in almost every room of the house and offered ice chips, which Annie loved, mostly because she could scoot them around on the floor.

Annie, in the meantime, paced and drank and was restless until around midnight, and then every single symptom stopped cold turkey and she passed out on the rug and snored through the night. No more water/ice drinking, no more pacing, no more restlessness. And it has not returned since.

The next day we were at the vet's office at 7:30AM. Annie was not amused but we got more blood, I took a fresh first-thing-in-the-morning urine sample, and the vet did an ACTH test at my insistence. The results? No cushings:

Pre: 6.9 (vet thinks slightly elevated because of stress)
Post: 11.9
The urine sample came back at 1.013 and there was no infection.
My vet also had them doublecheck the red blood sample and it was back to normal. Other numbers were either back to normal or on their way down.

We talked over possibilities. I was ready to move onto an abdominal ultrasound. My vet said we could do this, but she encouraged me to wait to see what shook out with Annie first in light of the fact that Annie had become (and remains) now completely normal. She wants another urine and blood sample in two weeks.

I have used this vet for over 25 years. She is very, very good. But we HAVE disagreed from time to time on, but never on diagnosis, only on treatment.

It certainly seems cushings is not the problem, but I found this board and intend to stay here because I learned more here than anywhere else. In the meantime, considering Annie is currently running at normal, do you see anything else I should be looking for? You folks are smart. What happened to Annie Do?

[LauraA]

Sounds similar to how my girl was a year or so before her Cushings diagnoses. She would pant and roam and drink for hours during the night and then she would finally lie down and sleep soundly for hours and her drinking would return to normal. She always wanted to go on her walks even though she had been pacing all night. We had numerous blood tests and they all came back fine. With the benefit of insights I am sure this was the beginning signs of Cushings. She would go a month or so where she was fine then she would have these episodes again. Made it really hard to test.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi and welcome to you, Annie, and Rosie!

Bless your heart for giving those two sweet girls such a loving home. Gosh, Annie sounds like quite the character!! And man, her wax and wane of symptoms do have me scratching my head. :confused:

If you could edit your post, which was in excellent detail, and add the reference ranges and the units of measurement for those values you listed that would be a great help...thanks!

Was her urine sent out for an urine culture and sensitivity test? If not, I would highly recommend this because a regular urinalysis is usually not sensitive enough to pick up bacteria in dogs that have diluted urine.

Does she seem to be favoring any particular body part, such as her paw, leg, back? Some dogs will be restless and drink more water when they are in some king of discomfort...just throwing some thoughts out there.

Hopefully the others will be by and share their opinions as well, and maybe once we all put our heads together we can figure out what is going on with dear Annie, ok?

Glad you found us and we will help in any way we can.

Hugs, Lori

[irmaly]

So would you agree that the thing to do at this point is just keep an eye on her and make sure we get a complete blood test every year? Unless it happens again before then and then--what--go for the abdominal ultrasound?

[Harley PoMMom]

Yes, I would wait and see how she does, regarding the elevation in her ALP, there are way too many things that can cause high values in that ALP, gut issues, infections, the list goes on.

An ultrasound is a very useful diagnostic tool, however, it has to be done with a high quality machine and the technician needs to be qualified to get those images and read them.

Hugs, Lori

[irmaly]

Thank you both. I am glad to be here. We have not yet done an ultra-sensitivity test. We talked about that, but all of Annie's symptoms disappeared. I could certainly have that done when she returns with the next urine sample. I think I added the info you requested. If not, let me know and maybe walk me through where to find that on the report. I, too, think it was very possible Annie was "in pain," but I never could figure out what that might be. She did not favor any body part and never winced when I or the vets examined every part of her body. It almost seems like something just wasn't right, and Annie freaked. Annie gets to run off leash in the mornings at our walkabout. She runs, digs, watches Rosie swim (she's terrified of water) and gets into every brush and ticket. My vet thinks there's a remote chance she got into something, but neither of us can figure what. My vet said these symptoms can be caused when a dog gets into steroids, but there are none here. Annie is not one normally to wolf down anything without closely examining it first. Even ham. She likes to look it over and think about it first. I just can't see her gulping down a steroid pill even if she found it.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and Annie Do! :)

I love that hair! :D

This is what popped into my rather odd little mind that tends to jump to the absolute worst scenario - wonder what her BP would have been during that little episode? And wonder if a Pheochromocytoma could be the cause? A pheo is a non-cortisol secreting tumor on the adrenal gland. Here is a list of some of the signs seen with pheos -


Weakness
Shaking
Collapse
Lack of appetite (anorexia)
Lack of energy (lethargy)
No interest in usual activities (depression)
Vomiting
Panting
Rapid breathing (tachypnea)
Increased urination (polyuria)
Increased thirst (polydipsia)
Diarrhea
Weight loss
Pacing
Seizures
Bloated abdomen
Symptoms may seem to come and go
Occasionally no symptoms

An abdominal ultrasound on a high resolution machine would be needed to see if this could be a possibility. There is also a test specifically for pheos so I would mention this to the vet just in case. If she laughs at you, you can tell her some crazy old broad online made you do it. :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

I just wanted to welcome you to the forum.

I think I wouldn't wait for a year, I'd do blood work every 6 months, to just keep an eye out for any potential problems to crop up, since we don't know what actually caused the strange behavior and blood test the other night. I'd have a urinalysis done every 3 months at least, to check concentration and make sure kidneys are good. A renal panel with the 6month blood work would be good.

Welcome again!

I'm so glad that she is back to normal

[irmaly]

Thanks. I am glad to be here.

Annie had one more short "episode" about 10 days after the first. We had been out and about for the better part of the day. When we returned home, Annie met us at the door scared, panting, and, well, just freaked. We took her outside. She was shaking. No obsessive water or peeing or anything like that. I got her ice chips (she loves them) and comforted her. The ice chips distract her more than anything. It took a bit but she was okay after a few hours. I looked for possible seizures, ANYTHING, but didn't see any other symptoms other than her wanting to be upstairs in my husband's study, where she rarely goes.

Since then, nada. All her old self. She is shedding a lot right now, but this is normal for her. I have my eye out for any bald spots.

Believe me, we are keeping an eye on it, and Annie is due for another blood test this week. (Vet wants to check her when she is acting normally). I am also going to have her specific gravity checked again.

My vet thinks Annie may be on her way to Cushings but not there yet. I'm not sure what I think yet. I had begun to wonder if she is developing high anxiety (she has always been a bit of a nervous Nelly), but that doesn't explain most of her CBC. I have also done more reading. The high blood cell count on Annie's initial CBC is an indicator of possible Cushings. This was something that threw the emergency vet but those numbers were back down to normal by the next day when my regular vet checked her.

I am going to see what this next round of numbers brings. Based on that we may take her for a different Cushings test or who knows what.

[molly muffin]

Make sure they check BUN, Creatine, sodium, potassium too. (renal and elctrolytes) Those are things that when they go off, could cause that sort of reaction.

I know it is scary and frustrating now knowing what is causing certain reactions.

[irmaly]

Thanks, Molly. Yes. I will make sure the vet checks all those numbers and I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the advice and information on this board. I think I've read almost every board now and check every day for new posts.

[Dixie'sMom]

Welcome to you and Annie! She sounds precious. :)

You are in very good hands here with the experts above so there is only one thing I would like to add. Since we are exploring options at this time, it may be helpful to keep a log of what, when, and hopefully eventually, we will get to the why she is displaying these symptoms. Pay particular attention to anything out of her normal routine or diet. Measure water and food intake on a normal day, and then again on a day in which she is displaying symptoms. (I know this is hard since you have 2 dogs, but you can get a general idea of how much her water intake has increased during these episodes.) Also record, pees, poops and anything else you think could be of significance. (A smoke alarm went off, a car with a siren blaring went down the road, etc.)

This may or may not be of any benefit in the long run, but on the chance that it could be, it may help pin down what is going on. It sounds like for now this could be a wait and watch situation.

Best of luck and I look forward to getting to know you and Annie.

[irmaly]

Thanks, Dixie's Mom. I am keeping tabs on her water, etc, but I am not keeping a log and I think that's a very good idea. My dogs do share water bowls. I read that they should generally drink around 1 oz for every pound of body weight per day? Is that right? Annie weighs around 34 pounds, so that would be 4 cups a day? (Rosie weighs somewhere around 40 pounds, maybe 45). She and Rosie take in together around 56-64 ounces per day together. Are they actually drinking less than they should be?

And when y'all say most Cushings dogs are really serious food beggars, what exactly does that mean? Our dogs are fed twice a day. They beg for their morning treat, but don't beg the rest of the day or night. Annie does, however, like to hang out under the dinner table in case something falls on the floor. But, frankly, she is a fairly picky eater for the most part.

The second time she was freaking out, the shorter time and when she was shaking, there was some gun shooting around here. I certainly noted it, but this happens around here a couple of times a year when some of the farmers shoot barn swallows, but it has never scared her before. I still do think, though, that might be why she was so freaked out that day--and shaking.

[Squirt's Mom]

One of my Squirt's nicknames was Miss Piggy because she would eat anything at any time from the moment she came on the scene. I always said as result that the cush sign of a big appetite would never work with her - she was already a Miss Piggy. Boy! was I wrong!

When her cortisol starting rising, she was pitiful. She would scarf down her meal then turn and attack the others to get their food - something she had NEVER done. She would immediately start looking for more to eat after mealtime, scrounging on the floors, outside, trying to get the trash, eating all sorts of crap. She would whine and whimper while staring me, begging with all her being for something, anything to eat. The look in her eyes was haunting and I don't think I will ever forget it. Her body felt as if she were literally starving 24/7...and the look in her eyes said it was my fault and she couldn't understand what she had done to deserve it. There is nothing quite like the cush appetite once you see it. It was heart-wrenching for me.

[Dixie'sMom]

Squirts Mom is quite right about the Cushing's appetite. I don't think every dog displays it, but if you have one that does, you will never forget it. I used to free feed and Dixie put on so much weight that I had to stop and use separate bowls, cut her food back to a "healthy weight", low fat type, and feed twice a day. Even with treatment, she still stays under my feet in the kitchen waiting for me to drop something; she licks her bowl after every meal, and if I take my eyes off of her she will dive into Button's bowl like a wild animal and "hoover" up the food. It's very sad since she feels that she is starving and isn't getting enough to eat. She chewed holes in my pocketbook because she smelt chewing gum. She eats dried worms outside and tries to bring in smashed dried up frogs. And for heaven's sake don't dare to leave her alone with a trash can she can reach. It is pitiful and even tho she is still overweight, she thinks she is starving. :(

As for the water intake, I do believe you are correct with the 1 oz per pound. I know that my Button's drinks alot less than her weight indicates so as long as she drinks, I don't worry about it. She has never been a big eater or drinker so that is her normal. Dixie can now walk by the water bowl without drinking, but I do think she still drinks a little more than the average dog. At her next ACTH stim I should be able to see if she needs a slight dosage increase for a little tighter control.

You will notice. Just like you did during Annie's "episode". Just write it down because you will forget things. :)

[labblab]

Squirts Mom is quite right about the Cushing's appetite. I don't think every dog displays it, but if you have one that does, you will never forget it.
Leslie and Suzie have aptly described the ravenous hunger that characterizes many Cushpups. However, I do want to reinforce Suzie's observation that not every dog with Cushing's exhibits this symptom, so the absence of a hyper-elevated appetite does not rule out Cushing's for a dog who eats "normally." As a matter of fact, we have had at least a couple of dogs here who responded in exactly reverse form: they were very picky eaters when their cortisol was high, but ate normally once the cortisol was lowered with treatment. Maybe the highly elevated cortisol was creating some type of GI discomfort for them? Who knows, but they definitely did not fit the more typical profile in terms of appetite.

My own Cushpup was a Lab, and I do always describe him as having a ravenous appetite. But in reality, my two non-Cushpup Labs are basically no different -- they constantly scrounge for "junk" to eat when they are outside, and they will instantly hoover up anything that hits the kitchen floor. They inhale their meals, and "dog" my every step for thirty minutes before their meals are served. When it comes down to it, their behavior is really not much different from that of my Cushing's dog. Interestingly enough, one big difference is that their weight remains stable whereas he was actually losing weight prior to diagnosis, which is counter to the typical Cushing's profile of weight gain. The only thing I can figure is that his metabolism may have been revved up with the Cushing's, and he really did not have access to additional calories. He could not get into the trash or the pantry, and we carefully controlled his meal/treat intake, no matter how hungry he acted. Before we knew what was going on with him, we actually switched to a higher calorie food to offset the weight loss (he was losing both pounds and muscle mass).

So my point is just that there can be a lot of overlap between "normal" dogs and Cushpups in terms of appetite, and appetite is just one more piece to fit into the overall puzzle picture of Cushing's diagnostics. You cannot rule the disease "in" or "out" on the basis of appetite or weight alone.

Marianne

[irmaly]

An update. For years Annie has been allowed to roam our property unattended. She always sticks around, following us in gardening duty or sunning on the back deck. Mind you, we don't leave her unwatched. Even when she's out on her own, we check on her every 10 minutes or so.

Today my husband let her out on the back deck. About 10 minutes later we received a phone call from a kind hearted soul who asked, "Do you have a little black terrier named Annie?" Annie had been picked up off a major road about a mile or so from our home by a kind stranger. She would have had to run like hell, full out, to get to that road in the 10 minutes she was left outside.

She has NEVER done anything like this before. Ever.

Of course we immediately drove to the woman who had picked her up. Annie was scared and panting and completely stressed out. The woman had been afraid Annie wouldn't come to her, but thankfully Annie will go to anyone.

Brought her home, calmed her down. She seems ok now although she headed for my husband's study when we returned home. I called the vet. I have no idea what is going on. (I did find out from the vet that Annie is actually around 10 years old--older than I thought--based on her medical records and when we first took her in as a pup.)

Annie is not drinking too much, is not generally panting (except when in stress), is not lethagic, is not begging food, etc. She has no other signs of Cushings EXCEPT I mentioned to the vet that her coat seems dull to me and she is shedding, especially in the hind quarters. It is hard to tell about this as Annie is inclined to shed heavily this time of year.

The vet and I talked over possibilities. I am taking her in for Low Dose Suppression test on Thursday (vet wants her to get over this episode before taking the test). This, we hope, will either rule in or rule out Cushings for now. (Annie has already had the ADHT test, which was negative.)

The vet says this could be any number of things (neurological, dementia, something else internally we haven't found yet, or just that Annie has developed some serious anxiety).

Any recommendations from any of you would be much appreciated.

[Harley PoMMom]

Annie Do does keep me scratching my head! :D Does she get really nervous or stressed at the vets? If so, I'm not sure if the LDDS test would be my next option, instead I would put that money towards an ultrasound.

In the face of stress or any non-adrenal illness the LDDS test is more likely to yield a false positive result. While an ultrasound can be pricey, it provides useful information about the adrenals, and it also can show any abnormalities with the other internal organs.

Hugs, Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Instead of spending money for cushing's test when there are no signs really, I would have the thyroid investigated thoroughly. Anxiety, aggression, and other personality changes are common with thyroid problems. So that is where I would start myself.

Let us know what the vet has to say. And I am sooooooo glad that lady got her and called so she could come home. That is such a horrible feeling when our babies are away from us and we don't know where they are. :(

[irmaly]

Yes. I have been thinking about what yall said above. Let's say I took Annie in for the low dose test and she came back positive. So then we would load her (properly thanks to this board) and look for exactly WHAT to know she is properly loaded? The only signs I have that are not normal for Annie are:

(1) what appear to be sudden anxiety or panic attacks. She has had three of these over approximately one month. The first one involved lots of panting, pacing, unable to lie or sit down, significant water drinking, fear, hiding, up in the night. This first attack lasted around 12 hours and landed us at the emergency vet. The other two were shorter lived (a few hours) and only involved fear, some shaking and panting, and hiding.

(2) Possible coat issues. I still have my eye on this. She is shedding heavily and I can pull out turfs of hair with my hands. BUT so far this mostly appears to be happening primarily on one side of her back near her tail. My vet says a "poor or thinning coat" can be caused by many things. She will check that out on Thursday.

So, again, even if the test came back positive, how on earth would I load her properly when she is absolutely fine and normal 95% of the time? I am going to ask the vet instead about an ultrasound and a checking of the thyroid. Thanks for your suggestions.

The woman who found Annie yesterday was indeed a Godsend. I can't imagine having lost my sweet girl. There's a lot to be said for tags and microchips.

[labblab]

I have to agree with the others that, right now, I would be spending my money on something other than Cushing's. Annie simply does not fit the profile of a Cushing's dog. If you want to go forward with the LDDS, I would rely on the result only if it turns out to be negative. In other words, with both a negative LDDS and ACTH, I think you can feel enormously confident in dropping Cushing's as a factor. On the other hand, even if the LDDS is positive, I would not feel at all comfortable with beginning treatment for Cushing's. As has been noted, the LDDS is vulnerable to returning "false positives" when there are other illnesses or abnormalities involved.

I think both suggestions -- an abdominal ultrasound and thyroid investigation -- make sense. But in honesty, Annie's behavior almost sounds more neurological to me. The fact that it is so intermittent and short-lived seems to point to something that is more episodic in nature, like some type of odd seizure activity.

Bottom line: I would definitely not begin Cushing's treatment at this point, regardless of the results of an LDDS.

Marianne

[irmaly]

How do you test for neurological issues?

[Squirt's Mom]

(1) what appear to be sudden anxiety or panic attacks. She has had three of these over approximately one month. The first one involved lots of panting, pacing, unable to lie or sit down, significant water drinking, fear, hiding, up in the night. This first attack lasted around 12 hours and landed us at the emergency vet. The other two were shorter lived (a few hours) and only involved fear, some shaking and panting, and hiding.

ooooo this sounds a great deal like my Sophie who we have decided has focal seizures. She becomes almost feral - terrified of everything and everyone she normally knows. This is why she lives with me - she actually belongs to my niece but they don't have a fence where they live and she had taken off during these spells numerous times. She was gone for almost 3 weeks once; we knew where she was, could see her, but could not catch her and she was too scared to come to us. A coyote or large dog got hold of her once and tore her up pretty badly while she was in one of these states. So now she stays with me.

When these hit, I can tell by her face and body language. Her eyes get bigger with the whites showing more, her tail tucks, her back end drops, her ears lower back, and she starts slinking thru the house, scared of everything. If I come into the room where she is, she takes off and hides somewhere else. She will run from room to room hiding while in these. If outside she finds a place to hide under the porch or back steps. To get her in, I have to put all the other babies out of sight, open the doors and herd her in using her fear of me. :( We aren't treating this and don't plan to unless they become more frequent and pose more a danger to her. For now, she is safe here and doesn't hurt herself so we will let her be.

[labblab]

How do you test for neurological issues?

I am so glad that Leslie wrote to you, because her little Sophie was exactly the example I had in my mind when I posted earlier.

Neurological issues can be a bear to nail down, because there can be a number of underlying issues that can cause abnormalities that result in seizure-type activity. I will try to come back later today and give you some links that explain possible diagnostics.

Marianne

[irmaly]

I have been closely watching Annie for any seizure activity and have noted none. Of course, if she is having seizures and they are only twitches lasting a few seconds, it would be entirely possible I would miss them. I did note, during the second episode, that she would stare off for a few seconds, but frankly Annie has always been prone to this since she was a pup. We call it "Annie's getting focussed." In other words, Annie has always tended to closely inspect anything and everything. She will "work" a feather around on the grass outside for an hour and everything else gets tuned out in the meantime. And she's been known to stare out of a window for a long period of time.

I have watched some Youtubes of partial seizures in dogs, and none of them look like anything I've seen in Annie. I've even thought of putting a small camera on her, but can't really wrap my brain about how to do that.

[Squirt's Mom]

I've never seen any videos that show what Sophie does either but focal seizures are what the vet determined based on her behavior. We haven't done any testing, just observing and reporting. Marianne has experience with neurological testing tho, I believe as do others who will hopefully be by to share with you.

[labblab]

Only have a moment to spare right now, but this is the type of thing I am thinking of. It does not fit peoples' traditional expectations of what constitutes a seizure, but it does involve neurological abnormality:


A complex partial seizure will originate in the area of the brain that controls behavior and is sometimes called a psychomotor seizure. During this type of seizure, a dog’s consciousness is altered and he may exhibit bizarre behavior such as unprovoked aggression or extreme irrational fear. He may run uncontrollably, engage in senseless, repetitive behavior or have fly-snapping episodes where he appears to be biting at imaginary flies around his head.

And:


Complex Partial Seizures (Psychomotor or Behavioral): These seizures are associated with bizarre or complex behaviors that are repeated during each seizure. People with complex partial seizures experience distortions of thought, perception or emotion (usually fear), sometimes with unusual sensations of sound, smell, hallucinations or taste. If dogs experience the same things, it may explain the lip-smacking, chewing, fly biting, aggression, vocalization, hysterical running, cowering or hiding in otherwise normal animals. Vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal distress, salivation, blindness, unusual thirst or appetite and flank biting are other signs. There is an obvious lack of awareness, though usually not a lack of consciousness. Abnormal behaviors may last minutes or hours and can be followed by a generalized seizure. Complex partial seizures are usually associated with secondary epilepsy.

My non-Cushpup Peg developed easily identifiable grand mal seizures at the age of six, but for many years before that she exhibited this really odd behavior where she would jump up out of a sound sleep and fearfully run around the house or yard, snapping her head around repeatedly to look at her tail like something was chasing her. It was SOOOOO weird, and the episodes weren't frequent and didn't last long. But the interesting thing is that ever since starting her on phenobarb for the grand mals, we have never seen her do that racing around either. So I have to believe that they were also the result of some abnormal brain firing.

More about diagnostics later.

[labblab]

OK, me again! Boy, after I saw that second quote that I edited into my preceding reply, I really started thinking more seriously about this maybe being Annie's issue. It's really just a stab in the dark. But regardless, just for your information, here is one of the most comprehensive articles that I found about diagnosing and treating seizure disorder back when my dog first fell ill. In our own case, we did not advance to seeing a neurologist nor having a brain MRI performed. So to this day, we do not know the cause of her seizures. However, we've been very lucky in that her seizures have been 100% controlled for four years now with phenobarb.

As you'll see, you've already performed Step 1, which is a thorough blood and urine panel. In our case, there were no abnormalities at all, so we were left with few clues to follow up on. In Annie's case, additional liver diagnostics might be useful since she did have an elevation in her ALKP (although ALKP is not necessarily liver-specific). If nothing else, maybe do a repeat blood panel before long to see if there's been any change there. You may also want to perform a more in-depth panel of her thyroid function, since abnormal thyroid function can cause seizure activity. Beyond that, you might want to consider consultation with a neurologist. But all that stuff, and more, is discussed in detail in the article. So here you go:

http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/basics/basics_index.html

The one correction I would make to the article relates to the section on newer medications. I think that section is fairly outdated (the article dates from 2002), because there are other, newer anticonvulsants that are being tried with dogs that are not listed there. That has not been an issue for us because our girl has responded so well to phenobarb. But we do have members here who are treating their dogs with more recently developed meds.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

How scary that must have been for Annie to just take off like that. So glad she was found and returned successfully.

My molly not having the classic symptoms of cushings is one of the main reasons we didn`t go with lysodren to bring down her cortisol. There was just no way to tell when she was `loaded`.

[SasAndYunah]

I too like to chime in on the possible neurological cause for Annie's behaviour. My Cukie had simular behaviour, very frightened, hiding under the bed and anyone who had the nerve to walk passed the bed would get attacked (out of fear). In cukie's case, these behavioral issues could last anywhere from several hours up to three days and then they would result in a grand mal seizure. After his seizures he would display totally differant behaviour but still those changes in behavior too were due to changes in his brain. But not all dogs will go into grand mal seizures...Cukie did but that just means the shortcircuiting in his brain went one step further, causing the seizure. But even without actual, visible seizures...a visit to a neurologist would be a logical next step, in my opinion.

Wishing you and Annie our best,

Saskia and Quincy :)

[irmaly]

I only have a minute, so this is a quick update. We took Annie in to the vet's office today for some testing and consultation with our vet about what to do next. Annie was not happy being at the vet's office again and decided she was absolutely not going to put up with any of it. Annie is a nervous Nelly. As a result we first tried having the vet literally come out to the car to draw blood. That didn't work, so we took Annie inside. All hell broke loose. Annie fought tooth and nail. She screamed uncontrollably and pooped and peed all over us and the floor. She fought HARD. As we tried every thing possible to get blood (short of putting her under), the fight intensified. So now there was also blood all over the floor and us. Plus that, others in the waiting room had to leave because the screams of terror and anger by Annie were so strong, their pets were flipping out. In the end, we couldn't get enough blood to even run further thyroid testing.

Once home, Annie was all smiles and requesting treats.

My vet is not new to this. She is good and has been in practice for over 30 years. None of us has ever seen anything like it. Vet is calling today to figure the next step. I think they are going to have to put Annie under or at least adminster something calming before they can even draw blood!!!!!!! OMG.

[molly muffin]

Wow! I don't think I've ever heard of a dog being that bad at the vets office.

Have you tried some trips there where nothing happens except she gets some treats and some attention and pets? Gradually work up to her being on the table, still with nothing except good things happening. See if that will help her to over come her fear. Hopefully your vet would work with you to try something like that.

Otherwise, maybe a home vet visit for blood work?

[irmaly]

Well, the vet called back. We now have Annie on herbal supplements to try to reduce anxiety and a new dogfood without grain. She is fine with the latter but will only take the former drenched in butter or wrapped in cream cheese. Did I mention she was spoiled?

We are going to wait a week. Then we're going to give her something (it's late and I am tired and can't remember what it was) to reduce her anxiety before taking her back in an hour or so later for a blood draw.

Yes. I have taken Annie many times to the vet just for a visit, which she loves. Up on the table, down from the table. Treat. Visit with all, talk to staff, treat. Say hello to the other pups, pee in the dogyard. Treat. She is not fooled at all. She knows what's up when the time comes for someone to control her in some way and won't allow it.

I know yall may think I'm not a very good mother. That's what I would think if I was reading this thread. But I have owned enough dogs to recognize from the get go that Annie would be a challenge, and for her 10 years with us, we have worked things out. When our vet first met Annie, she told me, "you've got s smart and stubborn little girl there, and you should mind yourself never to lose a battle."

We made sure over the years that Annie was always fed last, that she was not allowed out of the car unless we gave the command, that she could not go out of the door before us, that she was expected to stop jumping on visitors with great glee (that one was tough), and other things. She has always been a challenge, but in the end she turned out to be a great little dog who absolutely loves life.

But she's got one up on us this round. She just doesn't know yet that I'm gonna win this battle too. And that it's because I love her so much and want to help her.

[Dixie'sMom]

Oh Lord, poor Annie and poor you. That sounds just awful.

Yes, it sounds like a mild sedative is in order to calm her down enough to do what is necessary. I'm just so sorry she got so stressed out.

My Buttons freaks when it's time to get her nails clipped. She screams like they are killing her. I have to go outside because she's even worse if she sees me. they used to muzzle her but realized pretty quickly that she was all "bark" and no bite, but boy she sure can make some noise.

[molly muffin]

Nope, I don't think this reads like a bad doggie parent, but more like someone going the extra mile for her furbaby. Hopefully the meds will help calm her down enough for the blood to be drawn. Definitely sounds like a smart girl and a stubborn one but I am sure you Will win this battle too.

Good luck!!!
hugs