Cushing test negative; Has all the symptoms

[phxbarb]

Hello everyone. This forum is most helpful in trying to figure this out.

My 10 year old rescued poodle/schnauzer (he's a schnoodle, I think) is showing all signs of Cushings. Over the last couple years he has started panting all the time. He has a big belly, he drinks alot of water, he has weak back legs and does not like to exercise. He weighs 29 pounds, about 10 pounds more than he should. He is ravenous all the time and will eat anything he can. Boomer has a companion who is so different and runs around at the park with all the other doggies. Boomer just sits there or lays down.

I have tried giving less food and more green beans, lettuce, watermelon, etc. He still is fat. The vet told me today that the Cushings test was negative and he wants Boomer to be on the Science Diet diet food and lose 1 pound a month. He said not to try the vetoryl but to try this instead. His thyroid is okay. His liver enzymes are up.

Any advice from anyone? Any herbal remedies that might help? Thank you, Barb

[labblab]

Hello Barb, welcome to you and your boy!

I see from your posting on our "Surveys" thread that Boomer had an ACTH performed as the Cushing's diagnostic. This test has pluses, but a problem is that it has a relatively high rate of "false negatives," even when dogs truly have the disease. From your description of so many classic symptoms including elevated liver values, I would urge your vet to perform an alternative blood test -- the LDDS (low dose dexamethasone test). This test is more likely to avoid a false negative in the event a dog does have Cushing's.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Barb,

Welcome to you and Boomer! It would help us if you could get copies of all tests and post those values that are marked abnormal along with the reference ranges and units of measurement. Also, could you post all results from any tests that were used to diagnose Boomer's Cushing's. Was an urinalysis done, if so, could you post those findings too. Is Boomer taking any other herbs/supplements/medications? Does he have any other health problems?

Once we have more information regarding Boomer we can put our heads together and hopefully figure out what is going on.

Please know we are here to help in any way we can so don't hesitate to ask all the questions you want.

Hugs, Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Barb and welcome to you and Boomer! :)

I also would insist on further testing - the LDDS and an abdominal ultrasound for sure.

I also would NOT feed Science Diet anything to my dog, not even their prescription feeds. That is one of the very worst feeds on the market and will do nothing to help your baby. If you need to change feeds, we can help you find a high quality feed - and Science Diet does NOT fit that bill. It a low quality feed that vets are pushed into selling. They know next to nothing about nutrition...but they sure like that profit from selling crappy food! ;)

If Boomer does actually have Cushing's he will more than likely continue to gain weight regardless of what you feed. The cortisol must be controlled for a cush pup to lose that pregnant look. ;)

Looking forward to seeing those test results and learning more about you and your sweet boy.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[phxbarb]

I got Boomer's labs today.
His ALP is 2325, his ALT is 123
He also has hi cholesterol, like me.

His pre acth was 5.3
His post acth was 14.9

The vet says to try to get his weight down with metabolic food, then try the meds.
Still don't know if this will help. Still considering Harmony Gold, since it has such good reviews. The vet says its bogus. Doesn't think it will work. Anyone??

[Squirt's Mom]

Your vet is right about one thing - Harmony Gold is bogus. It does one thing "good" - line the pockets of those who prey on fearful Cushing's parents. Don't waste your money nor expose your baby to risk. These products change from time to time either the formula or the name but it's always the same garbage. Some of the formulas have contained things that are not good for cush pups. And NOTHING can "cure" both Cushing's and Addison's. :rolleyes:

Your vet is wrong about just about everything else tho. Science Diet is crappy food, all forms including the prescription feeds, and will not help your baby at all with Cushing's....and the signs sure seem to point to Cushing's. The test he ran, the ACTH, was not designed for a diagnostic test but has been used that way. It is designed to be used for monitoring after treatment has started. Yes, it does help with the overall diagnosis but the LDDS is the gold standard and your vet should know to perform one. If I were you, I would insist he does so asap. ;)

[labblab]

I agree 100% with Leslie as to her opinion about the Harmony Gold. I also agree with her that I believe your next step should be a LDDS. However, my rationale is a bit different. It is my understanding that along with the LDDS, the ACTH was indeed originally designed to be a diagnostic test for Cushing's. In fact, as a diagnostic test, it is a more "specific" test for Cushing's than is the LDDS. What this means is that it produces less "false positives" -- the LDDS will more often register a misleading positive result due to effects of other nonadrenal diseases or illnesses. However, the drawback to the ACTH is that it is a less "sensitive" test for Cushing's -- it is more likely to register a "false negative" even when a dog truly suffers from the disease. It does an especially poor job of identifying Cushing's when dogs suffer from adrenal rather than pituitary tumors.

So both tests have their strengths and weaknesses when used diagnostically. If a dog suffers from another known illness such as diabetes, the ACTH is generally preferred. But in the situation where a dog does not suffer from any other known illnesses and exhibits symptoms consistent with Cushing's, many vets may opt for the LDDS over the ACTH so as to be less likely to risk a "false negative" test result. However, since the ACTH is also used to monitor cortisol levels after treatment, some vets go ahead and administer it as the first diagnostic, regardless. If the dog is "positive" on it, then there may not be a need to perform the LDDS in addition and you already have a baseline reading upon which to begin treatment.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that I don't fault your vet for beginning with an ACTH. But in view of the results, I would now press to move forward with the LDDS rather than waiting for weight loss. That strategy simply makes no sense to me at all. Even if your dog does lose some weight, that wouldn't rule out Cushing's anyway.

Marianne