My Lovely Angel Luna

[labblab]

8-29-14 Note from Marianne: Hi Everybody! Today I am starting a new thread for my six-year-old yellow Lab girl, Luna. Luna is not a Cushpup, but she has had some health issues over the last couple of years. Previously, I had been writing about her on my Peg's thread. But I think it is time for Luna to have a thread that is her very own. I thank you all for your help in the past, and will appreciate all your help in the future. And Luna thanks you, too! :) :)

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Hi Everybody, I am hijacking Peg's thread for a moment to ask you all a question about Luna. Out of the blue, her weird orthopedic issue has struck again this evening. It is something to do with her front end, but we cannot tell if it is her neck, shoulder, back, or leg. She is clearly in a lot of pain again, and is limping badly. When it happened last month, I got some Previcox (NSAID) from the vet but didn't end up using it because she miraculously healed overnight. Plus, he and I both agreed we'd actually feel better checking her kidney and liver values before giving it to her. So the gameplan was that I'd drop by with her sometime while she's well for a basic blood panel just to have that taken care of...which, of course I had not yet done :o.

If she gets worse tonight or can't settle, though, I am thinking I will go ahead and give her one. The effect lasts for 24 hours, however. If she is still in pain tomorrow even after taking the Previcox, does anybody know if she could be given Tramadol, too, in the morning at the vet's office? Or would she have to wait until the Previcox wears off? If so, maybe we'll just try to tough it out through the night and wait for her to be seen. I just hate to see her hurting, though. I really think she is in quite a bit of pain. :( :(

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Hi Marianne,

Oh no, poor Luna. I know how worried you must be. Okay, found this on the Justanswer site (where you ask vets questions)

http://www.justanswer.com/veterinary/41mf8-give-dog-previcox-tramadol-together.html


Dr. Elizabeth Ann :

You can definately give previcox and tramadol together. Previcox is an anti-inflammatory drug. It helps to reduce pain by reducing inflammation. It is similar (but not the same) to aspirin or ibuprofen etc.
Dr. Elizabeth Ann :

Tramadol is a pure pain medication. Think of it as a doggy vicoden. When the pain is too much for just the anti-inflammatory med to handle it, then it can be used. It may cause drowsiness.

You can give previcox and tramadol together if needed. I don't think you can give previcox and a steroid together though.

hope that helps you tonight and I really hope that they can figure this out tomorrow.

If you run your hand straight down from neck to tail, while she is in a standing position, with light pressure, does she sit down (a sign of pain), indicate a pain area (like vertebrae) where the skin does the ripple effect at certain spots. That is a possibility.

They should probably do a full set of xrays, to help rule out back, neck, leg etc. Could she have sprained it at some point previously? It seems once they have done that, then the possibility of injuring the same area again would be higher.
Remember molly was limping a couple months ago, well, sure enough, the other day, she jumped off the window seat and messed it up again, limped for most of the day and I kept her off it, next morning she was fine again, but I know, it will likely occur again.

Hang in there Marianne!
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Thanks so much for this info, Sharlene!!

It is really hard for us to physically examine her and make any sense of the results. If we touch her, she is so skittish that she will immediately sit or lie down or slink away to her crate. Thus far with these episodes, we are not able to elicit any obvious pain ourselves. But then she will yelp when she makes sudden moves on her own. Physical exam at the vet has not identified the problem, nor have x-rays in the past. But it has been quite some time since we did the last set since she had been trouble-free for a long while. It really does seem as though something gets temporarily pinched or slips. And then suddenly it is OK again.

Of course our regular vet is off on Wednesdays, so maybe we can hobble through until Thursday. He knows her so well along with her entire history. I'm thinking now that it is so late, I may just wait and give her the Previcox with breakfast so as to lessen the likelihood of tummy upset, and then see if she improves by lunchtime. If not, I can still take her in during the afternoon.

[molly muffin]

It very well good be something that gets pinched or pulled and that a certain movement might trigger it.

Last time she had nothing over night and was fine in the morning right? So maybe she will be tomorrow too. I'd definitely limit activity tomorrow though, even if she appears to be fine, just to give whatever is causing this a rest.

Hopefully everyone will get enough rest tonight
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Peg is stretched out on the couch and I am scrunched up on the loveseat :o, and poor little Luna is off in a corner. :(

Hubs needs to work in the morning so he gets to actually sleep in the bed upstairs, lucky guy.

Yes, I sure hope she's better again tomorrow. It's times like this that I sure wish the girls were small enough for us to pick up and hoist around...!

Thanks again, Sharlene.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,

I am so sorry to hear about Your sweet Luna. :oI don't know if this will help, but the neurosurgeon who oversaw Buddy's treatment said to stagger the meds so when one wore off, the other would keep the pain manageable. He was on Previcox, tramadol, and prednisone all at the same time. I know his situation was quite different, but the vet did say that Previcox and tramadol are often used together to manage pain. Be careful though. They can manage it so well that the vet may have a hard time figuring out where Luna's pain is coming from, particularly if she's pain free when examined.

You are likely to have a long night ahead. Yes, those big babies aren't easily picked up and carried to bed. :o I'll check back in a while and see if you're around and feel like company.

Big hugs,

[Budsters Mom]

I think Luna should have her own thread too. How about.....

My Lovely Luna;):p

[Budsters Mom]

Well, it's almost midnight here and hopefully you all are peacefully snoozing away. Not snoozing as peaceful as hubby, I would guess.;)
I'll check back in the AM. I hope Luna is feeling better, poor baby. :o

[labblab]

Thanks Kathy! I just now roused and see your notes. Luna has not moved at all from her corner so that means she is still hurting. Otherwise, she'd be right here next to me. :o

I'll be anxious to see if she will eat or drink anything in the morning, which is now just a few hours away. If not, I guess maybe I should hold off on the Previcox cuz I think that's when you can get into kidney problems -- giving it when dehydrated?

[Budsters Mom]

There you are Marianne. I have been watching for you. I am sorry about your precious baby. We hurt when they hurt. :o Your support meant so much to me when I needed it. I am here for you now.

It's 3:00 AM There. Are you going to wait and give Luna the Previcox with breakfast or feed her a little something now and give it to her? You could give her a dose of tramadol instead, then Previcox with breakfast. Could you get her to eat a little something, then give her Tramadol? That could help her feel more comfortable. Just a thought.

Hang in there Marianne.
Big hugs,

[labblab]

I don't have any Tramadol. I wish I did, because I think it would be safer to give than the Previcox. But unless we get the pain managed to some extent, we will have a hard time even getting her into the car and since our regular vet is out tomorrow, I don't think the other vets will just hand me Tramadol without first seeing her. I don't know. I guess I can try driving over by myself and talking to them first if she is no better by morning.

[Budsters Mom]

I just saw the note you posted. I was instructed very plainly to give Previcox with food and make sure plenty of water is available. No, I don't think you should give it to Luna unless she is drinking.

[Budsters Mom]

Yes, I also think Tramadol would be a safer alternative, but it won't help with inflammation. It sucks that you don't have any right now. Maybe if you explain the circumstances to the vets in the AM, they may give you just enough to get her there.

[labblab]

Yeah, that's what I am thinking, too. Well, I'm gonna try to close my eyes and see if I can't get back to sleep for awhile and then see what the morning brings. You need to go to bed, too, Kathy. Thanks a million for being here!

[Budsters Mom]

Anytime :) I'm on Summer Break remember. I can stay up and keep a dear friend company.:p It was my pleasure. I'll check back in the morning. I hope you are able to get some rest. Kick Peg off the couch if you need to!

Hugs,

[labblab]

I cannot sleep and just checked on her again. She is still in a great deal of pain and does not want to move at all. So I will drive over to the vet in an hour so I can be the first person in the door, and hopefully they will give me some tramadol to bring home to her so as to take the edge off whatever it is that is wrong.

[Budsters Mom]

Okay, that sounds like a plan. I can't sleep either. I feel so bad for Luna. :o The vet will know how to proceed. I'm sure they've had big dogs in pain before that were difficult to move. Keep us posted, okay. Take big slow breaths Marianne. They will get this figured out and Luna will be happily by your side once more.

Sending tons of healing energy to your sweet girl,

[Budsters Mom]

Time for a little light humor.....

My brother had a st. Bernard. He weighed 185 pounds. They NEVER Took him anywhere except to the vet when absolutely necessary. Noah, fought getting into the car because he knew where he was going. It would take a whole army if people to get him in the car. The first time I saw this process I broke out in hysterics. It was like trying to put and elephant into small clown car. The same process would ensue leaving the vets. The entire staff would have to come out to put him back into the car. lol :D :D:D I am soooo glad I went small!

And did my brother learn from this. NO!!!! His next dog was a mastiff! :eek:

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

Sorry to hear of Luna's pain. I hope the vet was able to give you some Tramadol.


hugs

[labblab]

Thanks for the laugh, Kathy, and the well wishes, Addy. Yup, I am definitely aiming smaller next time around!

Well, it is her paw that's the problem. When I got up and actually turned on the light I could see it is swollen to double the normal size. :eek: :eek: :eek:

No wonder she was limping, and what a crappy mom I am not to have noticed earlier :o :o :o. We rigged up a litter to carry her to the car and she was the first patient seen at the vet's. Still a mystery because there is no obvious sign of a bite or wound. Fortunately the x-rays were OK. The stand-in vet said the tissue between her pads is horribly inflamed, though, so it seems like some sort of inflammatory or allergic issue like you'd expect from a sting or a bite. She got a steroid shot and take-home prednisone. Now that we're back, I'm wondering why she isn't also gonna take an antibiotic just to cover possible infection, but I was too shell-shocked to think to ask about it at the time.

She clearly feels lousy and still won't eat or drink or move. If the swelling hasn't gone down any by tomorrow, I will definitely check back in with our regular vet. Poor little thing. When a Lab won't eat, you know without a doubt that they are seriously hurting. :o :(

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, bless her heart...and yours, too. I hope the meds help and the cause can be found.

[Budsters Mom]

So glad to hear that the cause was found. Now they can fix it.:)

When Buddy stepped on a bee, his paw swelled up more than twice the size and he refused to walk on it. He was allergic to many things. He was treated with steroid and Benadryl injections and an antibiotic. His paw pad was inflamed too. His paw was bandaged for a couple of days. It recovered quickly. I hope Luna's paw heals quickly also.

The crisis is over Marianne. It is now time to breathe and rest. You didn't get much sleep last night, so maybe a nap today would help? As far as your one good thing, Luna's problem has been diagnosed and she's on her way to a complete recovery. That would definitely account for a good thing. :) xxxxxx

[labblab]

Oh, I hope we really are on the right track. I don't know. I think the swelling has moved even higher on her leg and she is acting no better at all than before she got the steroid shot. I am worried it is infected or maybe something totally different like a blood clot or something vascular. The vets are in surgery now but if she is not improved even a bit by mid-afternoon I will call back to see about an antibiotic. I can't believe I didn't ask about one when she was seen. She will not walk, she will not drink. She acts really sick. Hubby arranged to work from home today so we are taking her outside on a litter to give her the chance to pee. I can't do that by myself tomorrow, though. I'm workin' on that good thing, Kathy, but I am not there yet. :o :o

Thank you so much for checking on us.

[Tina]

Marianne, I am so sorry to read about Luna and that you worried all night. I sure know that feeling. I am usually on the forum some time during the night but not last night, so I didn’t see everything until this morning. :o

I just wanted to say that it sure sounds like she was stung or bit by something. When Jasper was about 9 months old this happened to him, only it was his face. It swelled up within 15 minutes of letting him out after I got home from work one day. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong until I looked at him closely, and by the time I got him to the vet his eyes were completely swollen shut. We could not find a bite or sting anywhere either, but my vet was sure that was what happened, probably in his mouth. :eek:

Has the swelling gone down at all with the steroid injection? And how is she feeling overall? Luna’s treatment is the same as what my vet prescribed for Jasper’s situation, but he also got an injection of Benadryl, and oral Benadryl to take at home also. The oral Benadryl might be something you could consider giving to Luna also, after checking with your vet, of course. Make sure it is plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no other additives. I feel like it really helped for our situation. I believe the dose is 1 mg per lb, every 8-12 hrs. Jasper gets 25 mg dose. My vet gives it as an injection to pre-medicate for vaccinations also.

I just wanted to send this real quick from work rather than waiting until tonight when I was home, in case it is something that may help her today. I have been so busy wallowing in my worry over Jasper’s latest developments and other things going on in my life, that I haven’t been on the forum very much lately. I sure hope Luna is feeling better and that the swelling goes down. That is so scary.

Big hugs,
Tina and Jasper xo

[Tina]

Marianne, I see we were typing at the same time. I think I would take her back also if the swelling seems to be advancing. And especially if she won't walk and is acting sick. I wish I had some other words of wisdom. I will check back as I am able. Big hugs.

[labblab]

Oh thank you for checking in, Tina. I just don't know what to think. There is now a little blood oozing out from around her dewclaw and it is not from her licking it, and her other exposed skin on the paw is weirdly fiery red, too, like it is all bloody underneath. I wonder if she might have been bitten by a snake or something else toxic like that. If this keeps getting worse this afternoon, I may just bypass the GP vet and take her directly down to the specialty clinic emergency room. She is just not improving in any way at all.

[addy]

If the swelling is going further up her leg, maybe you should take her back. Zoe tried to eat a bee and it stung her in the mouth. Poor thing ran around the house crying, I did not no what had happened at first and then she vomited. I had given her a benadryl earlier in the morning for her paw chewing but my dog savy neighbor had me give her another one even though it had only been a few hours. She felt better after that second pill. Maybe Luna does need more antihistamine as Tina suggested.

HUGS

[addy]

Ok we were posting at the same time.

I don't like the sound of that. Is the specialty clinic good? Some are not so great, at least here in Milwaukee, they pretty much suck.:(:(

[labblab]

It's the clinic where Barkis' IMS was/is, although I have not been back there since then except for an eye appointment for Peg several years ago. On paper, they are good...:o

I just called the GP office and one of the gals relayed messages back and forth. He said I could bring her back for them to keep an eye on, but I see no future in that since they are not staffed overnight. At my request, he will fill a Rx for an antibiotic for me to pick up. I just think that would be prudent since her paw is weeping blood! I will ask about the Benadryl when I pick up the Rx. Overall, he clearly is not as concerned as I am about the swelling and bleeding. I surely hope he is the one of us who is right. How I wish our regular vet was there today!!!

So I will pick up the antibiotic and see about the benadryl, and he said I could advance the prednisone to around 6:00. And I guess we will just continue to monitor her for a while longer. The ER will always be open if we need it :o.

[addy]

ok we will check back in with you but dont hesitate if you think she needs to be seen. Better safe than sorry

[lulusmom]

Overall, he clearly is not as concerned as I am about the swelling and bleeding. I surely hope he is the one of us who is right.

He can only be right if he knows what he's dealing with. Did he tell you what the problem is or did he just throw steroids at it and hope it takes care of things. Did he at least do some labs?

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh my goodness, I am just now reading about poor Luna :( Hope she is feeling much better soon, will be right here with the others waiting anxiously for more news about sweet Luna.

[Budsters Mom]

OMG! I take a little break from this thinking that everything is okay and all hell breaks loose. I don't like the sound of that at all! It does sound like they just threw steroids at it, but the doctor could know what he's doing? :confused: I hate it when their regular doctors are not there.:(

I am glad that hubby is working from home today and he's there with you. I'm glad you have an ER vet close by. Please keep us posted.

Big hugs,

[Tina]

Oh my gosh Marianne, I think I might take her back in before it gets too late in the day. If the swelling and redness are due to a sting or bite, steroids would be included in the correct treatment for that, but I would think she should be showing some improvement by now. I am concerned that the swelling is advancing and now the paw is weeping blood and looks fiery red. :eek: Is her paw and leg warmer than normal to the touch?

I agree, I absolutely hate it when the regular vet is not there. It just adds an additional level of stress. Please update us when you can.

[Budsters Mom]

Due to the latest developments, you may need a little help with your one good thing. So here's a few to get you started. ;)


Peg is doing well today
Hubby is home to help
We are here to support you
There is an ER vet nearby

Luna ate her whole dinner! (Per Addy)

[molly muffin]

I'd go for the specialty clinic if you still think it is advancing up her leg and the bleeding continues. My thought being that straight inflammation from a pulled tendon or ligament wouldn't cause that.

So that is my vote and I like Kathy's one good thing. Those are several that are really worthy of a good thing notice.

Let us know whats going on! Now you have the whole gang riding in your pocket :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Good job, Kathy!! (and everybody else ;)).

I'm back from picking up the antibiotics and the first simplicef is down the hatch. No, I don't dispute the steroids in this situation, either. I just wish I could have started with an antibiotic earlier in the day since it seems as though the likelihood of cellulitis is so high. I have now gotten her to eat some kibble and drink some water so I feel better about that. I think the swelling has maxed out, but there is so much edema, she is leaking bloody fluid through her toes :eek:. But I guess that actually is not surprising even though freakish. The message I got from the vet is that he thinks it will take a day or two for the swelling to subside, and the assistant I spoke with said she actually thought it would have been more odd had the swelling stayed restricted rather than expanded. So who knows.

Nope, no labs were done, and again I was so sleep-deprived and scatter-brained I did not request them. We were just so anxiously awaiting the x-rays and I was so relieved that they were OK and that there was no obvious major wound. Duh and double-duh. :o :o. My excuse is just that it seemed pretty clear that there had been some trauma localized to her paw like a sting or a bite, and I don't know that we'll ever figure out what did it.

Now that I've got the antibiotic, I'm hoping there won't be any more worsening. I'm spraying Vetericyn on her toes. And hopefully the evening dose of pred will speed up some anti-inflammatory action. Our own vet will be back tomorrow morning, thank goodness. So I'm hoping we can stagger through the night.

My big issue will be, what will I do tomorrow if she still can't walk outside on her own. She doesn't know to use pee pads in the house. I think hubby and I will need to do some brainstorming tonight. You'd think that after 20 years of owning big dogs, we would have had to figure this one out before now...:confused:

[molly muffin]

Well it's a fact that sleep deprived brains aren't working at optimal levels, but no way around it when you are up all night worrying.

You still have the option of going to the ER if you think it is getting worse or not responding to the medications.

I guess you can take her out in the morning before he leaves and then hope she'll hold it till he gets home, or is there a possibility of him coming home at lunch if need be? If not, what about a friend coming over. One with some superior upper arm strength, others need not apply. :)

Glad to hear that she is eating a bit and drinking some too. Prednison certainly should help with that.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Did the vet say anything about bandaging her foot with some clean gauze, so it can drain? Something to keep the dirt and bacteria out of it. You could change the bandage as need be. I am surprised the vet left it open? :confused:

WE WILL ALL BE GLAD WHEN YOUR REGULAR VET RETURNS TOMORROW!!! ;)

[Budsters Mom]

If you use a tape measure to measure around Luna's paw, you will be able to track the swelling, knowing whether it increases or decreases. A couple times a day would give you a good idea of how it's doing. That depend on whether she'll let you touch it, of course. ;)

[labblab]

Did the vet say anything about bandaging her foot with some clean gauze, so it can drain? Something to keep the dirt and bacteria out of it. You could change the bandage as need be. I am surprised the vet left it open? :confused:

WE WILL ALL BE GLAD WHEN YOUR REGULAR VET RETURNS TOMORROW!!! ;)
It was not draining this morning so it was not an issue when we saw him face-to-face, and I didn't think to ask about it when questions were being relayed. I've been debating that myself, though. In the past, I always thought it was better to bandage. But more recently I've heard that it is better to leave a wound open to fresh air rather than allowing a bandage to accumulate nasty gunk and hold it moist and close to the wound. But I guess it comes down to a judgement call as to how much drainage there is going to be and how much dirt will the wound be exposed to. Probably it would be better to bandage Luna's paw temporarily, but it is so tender right now that I think we might have a hard time if it. Thinking about it, though.

Just gave her the pred after she finished her whole dinner. Now that's my girl. :) :)

[lulusmom]

I had a little old foster dog who had an interdigital cyst that was constantly getting infected. The vet finally did a culture to determine which bacteria was involved. Her little foot would get really swollen and extremely painful. She was put on steroids again, as well as two different antibiotics the last time she saw the vet. The vet told me to soak her foot in an epsom salt bath a few times a day. I believe it really helped her. If Luna will sit still for it, I highly recommend that you give it a try. It will help draw out the toxins and sooth her foot.

[labblab]

That's a great idea, Glynda. I don't think she'll let me fuss with her paw tonight, but maybe by tomorrow morning.

BTW, Peg has been parading around the house all day as if to say, "Thank goodness it's the little squirt this time who's headed to the vet and not me!!!!" Peg has seemed quite smug and self-satisfied. :D

[lulusmom]

I forgot to mention to you that if she has an open, oozing wound, I recommend that you clean it with an antimicrobial skin cleanser. I keep Hibiclens on hand for that as well as Vetericyn. It's a winning combination for any infection. You can get Hibiclens at any pharmacy. I don't know if you remember but I became familiar with Hibeclens when I was taking care of Abby, the little Chi who had a leg and most of the toes on her other foot amputated by a train. The foot with the amputated toes was completely wrapped in gauze. By the second day, the stench was horrific. The surgeon told me to the remove the wrap and clean the toes with Hibiclens. I did not rewrap her foot and cleaned her toes with Hibiclens a few times a day and sprayed them with Vetericyn to promote healing.

[addy]

Well I am pleased as punch that I am home from work and the park to read Luna ate her whole dinner:D:D:D

High Five girl!!!! (we can add that to Kathy's list of one good thing today)

Glynda has some wonderful ideas, Kathy has been busy too.:):)

Feel the love:):):):):):):)

makes a girl's heart swell with pride.

I hope tonight is more restful for you both.

Marianne,when we are sleep deprived and so worried, it is hard to think straight. I think you did just fine!!! We are only human afterall:D:D:o:o:o Sometimes I do wish I were a dog.:p:p:p:p

[molly muffin]

These a great suggestions. Glinda's experiences are like gold. Probably better than the vet will give you.

Now I think about it thus is stuff we should all keep in our cabinets if possible. Hopefully Luna will let you try some of these ideas.

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Addy,

I added your suggestion to the one good thing list. " Luna ate her whole dinner!" :D:D Love it!!!! Thanks!

[Budsters Mom]

Okay angels, I'm pretty tired after staying up last night. We need someone to monitor the night shift tonight. Marianne might be stuck on that loveseat once again because I don't think Peg is going to give up the couch easily. Luna still can't walk, so Marianne will most likely be stuck downstairs. If any of you are up with pit stops during the night, you might want to check on things. I'll keep checking also. Thanks gals.:p

Yes, we are thrilled that Luna ate her whole dinner!:p:p:p

[labblab]

Thanks guys, so much! Gameplan for tomorrow is that hubs has cleared a couple of hours at lunchtime so he can come home and help with pee duty. Little Luna is pretty out of it right now, back in her corner hiding out :o. I hate it that she is still hurting so much, but hopefully things will look and feel better in the morning. If not, I will take her back in first thing and hubs can help me bring her home at noon. So that is the plan. I hope to actually sleep tonight...maybe I can bribe Peg into swapping places with me. :rolleyes:

Many, many, many thanks again.

[addy]

Just checking in before Koko and I go to bed. I do hope you all get some sleep. I am sorry to hear Luna is still hurting that much but I think things will be better in the am and Glynda has so many great suggestions. I stocked our dog medicine chest with her advice when Zoe had that break through bleeding from her first surgery.;););)

Sleep tight, Marianne, hugs and kisses to Luna and kisses as well to our sweet Peg.

[Tina]

So happy that Luna ate all of her dinner, and I am hoping she is feeling much better in the morning. I keep hibiclens and vetericyn on hand also, they often come in handy. I like your plan for tomorrow Marianne. Is she peeing lots more from the prednisone? You might need to take that into account.

I will be up for a while yet, and will make sure that I check in when I am up for Jasper's pit stop in the wee hours. I hope you are able to get some sleep and that things look much better in the morning.

Hugs from me and Jasper xo

[molly muffin]

Sounds like you have a solid plan Marianne for in the morning. Hoping Luna is better and no vet needed of course.

Maybe if you put a treat or a toy on the loveseat, Peg will take that and you can grab the couch. They are pretty sneaky about getting up into those really good spots and then looking all innocent when you want it back. LOL

I'll be heading to bed soon but will check in before I go to make sure everything's okay. Try to get some sleep. It's been a long couple days. I'll take the ipad to bed with me. LOL

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

It is a very good sign that Luna ate all of her meal, most dogs in pain do not so maybe that would mean that Luna is not as distressed as we think. Hope you both get a good nights sleep and sending healing energy your way.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Budsters Mom]

I always take my IPad or Mini to bed with me. Now that's plain sad! lol

Be the alpha. Claim the couch!:D lol

So glad that you have tomorrow's plan figured out. Poor Luna. That must really hurt.:o I am thrilled that she's eating though.

Going out tomorrow to the pharmacy. Time to stock the medicine cabinet with all of Glynda's suggestions.

Try to get some rest tonight. I'll check back in a little later in case you can't sleep.

((((((Hugs))))))

[Budsters Mom]

Well Marianne, it's 10:15 here, so that's 1:15 AM there. I am hoping that everyone in your house is peacefully snoozing by now. Luna has got to be exhausted, poor thing. Hopefully she'll be able to sleep some too. I am going to bed soon here myself, so I'll check in with you in the morning. xxxxoooo

[labblab]

Hi gang, it's the 3 a.m. potty break for Luna. I wasn't sure whether she would really need to go out because surprisingly she has not wanted to drink all that much water (and it turned out she didn't need to go very badly). But I had roused and wanted to give her the chance. And hurray, she and I managed it by ourselves up-and-down a ramp hubs and I set up last night over the two front steps into the yard. She actually started out pretty strong but clearly ended up hurting pretty bad again and is tucked back in her corner. But I'll take this as first good thing of the day -- we girls handled potty break on our own! Don't think the leg looks any better, but hopefully it won't look any worse, either, in the morning. OK, back to "bed" again (the loveseat since Peg reclaimed the couch while I was outside).

[Budsters Mom]

Whew, what a relief! Way to go girls! :p So glad you were able to get Luna out by yourself. It is amazing what we can do when we have to. I was up with Rosie's potty break myself. Well, can't blame Peg for reclaiming the couch.;) That's probably her usual sleeping place. Try to get some more sleep. You have already had one good thing for today, so you're way ahead. ;)

Hugs,

[Tina]

Well, we are back in from Jasper's 3 AM potty break, central time. :rolleyes: I see we have had company. :D Good job girls for navigating the trip out by yourselves!! I'm hoping her leg looks a bit better in the morning. It's good that she is able to settle and rest some rather than being up and restless. Aww, Peg stealing her spot back on the couch, so cute. :) Hope you are able to get some more sleep Marianne. Back to bed for a little while for me too.

[Trish]

Crikey, just catching up on Luna. Poor wee girl, so sorry to hear about her sore paw!

I to am wondering about the sting, bite angle. Plus whether she has trod on something that has stuck into her paw that you cannot see. Or else caught the dew claw on something that has caused trauma. I hope she does not have a temperature that might indicate more systemic infection.

Those interdigital cysts can be nasty, Flynny has had a couple of those in the last six months or so. Antibiotics cleared them up, I also soaked his paw in warmed saline solution to clean it up. I used to hold his paw in the solution for a good 10 minutes or so. I have not heard of the Epsom Salts soak, so that is interesting. I also applied a cream called Neotopic that has hydrocortisone, neomycin an antibiotic and lignocaine - local anaesthetic in it. Worked well.

If she is not chewing at it, I would not cover it, it is not like she is getting it in mucky situations. It drove my boy mad if I bandaged it.

I hope it is better in the morning Marianne and that you managed to get a bit of sleep too on your loveseat! Pleased your own vet back tomorrow, nothing like dealing with those that know you best xxx

[addy]

Hope you went back to sleep after the 3am potty break.

How is Luna this morning, has she been out yet? How long does she need to take the pred?

I hope the swelling has gone down

[labblab]

Thanks for checking on us, Trish! Well, Luna and I just now hobbled up and down the ramp again :) and she finished breakfast :) :).

I can't say her leg looks any better, but it seems as though she is feeling better. She still stays put in her corner at all times, but like Lori says, having an appetite is surely a good sign. And Luna even was wagging her tail from her corner when Dad came down to greet her this morning.

I was feeling a bit guilty about pressing for the antibiotic without proof of an infection, but I am relieved I did so in the face of the fiery skin and weeping. I'll never forget once when hubs was bitten by a fire ant on his wrist and he went to bed with it stinging. When we woke up next morning, a red line had already advanced three-quarters up the vein in his arm headed straight for his lymph node. It was like a picture in a medical book! Straight in to the urgent care center and a whopping dose of cephalosporin for him. All I could think yesterday was, "I'll never be able to see a red vein on Luna cuz of all the fur on her arm!!" :eek: So I am very relieved to have that bottle of simplicef. :o

It's a lovely cool morning so I will probably take Peg for a walk all on her own. She will love the private attention. And it will be a good test to see how Luna is really feeling -- whether she makes any effort to stand up to try to join us. Poor little thing usually always hates to be left behind any time the door opens and the car starts. :o

[labblab]

Thanks for checking on us too, Addy. I'm not sure that the swelling has gone down a lot yet and there is still some weeping. But at least it does not look worse and I already have a couple of good things under my belt :). She'll be on the prednisone for five days at 30 mg. a day. I think it is that "burst" idea of a very short-term higher dose instead of a more drawn-out lower dose and taper. As Sharlene says, I'm sure that much pred has got to be helping her appetite and thirst!

[Trish]

Well definitely some positive signs there! She totally needed an antibiotic asap for something as acute as this. Glad she is eating well, it is a good sign to see her eating. Are you checking in with your vet later today?

Enjoy your walk with Peg, I kinda hope Luna will want to get up and go with you! I am off to bed but hopefully will have some more good news to read tomorrow! xx

[addy]

I'm glad you got the antibiotic too. I hope your walk goes well.

I think today will be a better day for you and Luna. Yup, I can feel it in my bones:):):):)

[Tina]

Hi Marianne, just checking in before I head off to work. I agree, SO glad you have the antibiotic. Positive signs so far today, and I hope they continue. Hoping she feels better as the day goes on. I will check in later as I am able. Feel better Luna! :)

[Budsters Mom]

Good morning Marianne. :p

Are you taking Luna in to see your regular vet today or are you just going to wait a while and see how she does? With the antibiotic and the prednisone, there should be some real improvement soon. If not, I would definitely take her in. Is your regular vet in tomorrow?

I bet Peg loved having you all to herself on the walk this morning. Little brothers and sisters can be such pests! lol

I hope you were able to get some rest and that Luna feels better as the day progresses. I'll check back in a little later. Take care.xxxxxx

[labblab]

Mid-day report: She is more easily mobile and I think the paw is looking a bit less swollen and weepy. Sure enough, she got up from her corner and hobbled to the door in hopes of joining Peg and me in the car when we headed off this morning. I was sad to leave her behind but very glad that she even thought about wanting to join in.

I will not take her in to the vet today since she is showing some improvement. This is actually pretty much the timeframe the stand-in vet was predicting, and the regular vet will be there tomorrow, too, in the event something worsens.

I think Peg really did enjoy her solo walk. For the most part, she is so tolerant of her little sister. But I know there are times when she's gotta think, "And so, remind me, exactly why did we think we needed a second dog in the family???" :rolleyes:

[SasAndYunah]

Awwww Marianne, poor Luna (and poor you too) :( It sounds like it could be a foxtail and they are very, very painful. I hope it isn't cause it can be incredably difficult to remove once it entered the leg through the foot...

I hope she will at least continue not to get worse and if at all possible, to improve :) Thinking of you,

Sas and Quincy :)

[Budsters Mom]

Sounds like improvement to me! :D YAAAAAAAAAYYYYY!!! ;)

[addy]

Lunch time check in:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Sounds like we have a bit of improvement. HURRAH!!!! We will take baby step improvements.

I'm sure Peg enjoyed her alone time with you. Alone time for the pups is a good thing sometimes.

Keep the faith.

love and hugs

[Harley PoMMom]

YYAA!!! So glad to read that Luna's paw is getting better. Still sending tons of healing energy. ;)

Love and hugs, Lori

[Budsters Mom]

Thread hijack! I can't get away with this because I'm cute! :D lol

Vetericyn - where do I find it? Do I need an RX? Walmart pharmacy never heard of it. I bought the skin cleanser that was mentioned, but haven't been able to find this. Thanks.;)

I hope Luna is doing so much better and is there running around causing havoc anytime now.;) I will check back in a bit for the evening update. xxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

From google I found it at Walmart :
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Vetericyn-Wound-Skin-Care-16-oz-Cats-Dogs-Horses-Livestock-Small-Animals/16563039

At Petsmart: http://www.petsmart.com/search?SearchTerm=Vetericyn&blah=&undefined=

[Budsters Mom]

Thank you Lori.:p

[molly muffin]

Marianne, how is Luna doing this evening?

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

I'm checking too!!! ;)

[Budsters Mom]

Well Marianne, I am hoping that your entire household is peacefully snoozing away by now. That would mean that Luna's paw is on the mend. Sweet dreams.:p I'll check in with you tomorrow. xxxooo

[Tina]

Good morning Marianne,
How is Luna this morning? Hope you all got a good nights sleep and that she is continuing to improve.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper xo

[labblab]

Thanks gals for checking on us. So here's the morning report. Overall positive, but with some new wrinkles. :) :o

She is still not totally "herself," but behaviorally definitely better. She is staying in the same room with the rest of us, and alternating between her crate (which is normally her favorite safe and calm haven), or the floor, or even jumping up on the couch to nap at times. She can walk more normally, the paw is still somewhat swollen but less so and no longer tender to the touch -- she will let us manipulate it pretty freely.

The downside: although she is eating, it is not with her usual gusto even with all the pred onboard. Her poop this morning was well formed but it seemed as though there was a bit of a color change at the end that with my typical paranoia looked kinda dark red to me so now of course I am worried about gastric bleeding. And last but not least, we got up to find a sore between two toes that we think she has caused herself by licking. That area had looked OK yesterday, but she was licking her paw a little bit just at bedtime. I did notice and think, "Hmmmm...I might should do something about that" but I was so tired and wanted to sleep in my own bed and thought it could wait until morning. I do think she has done it herself rather than it being more sinister, so I've tried to tape a sock over it and as long as I can keep her away from it I will hope it looks better later today rather than worse. (And not to be left out, Peg the Lick Queen yeesterday started licking her leg again so there may soon be two sock-wearing dogs in the house...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:).

Hubby gets home a bit earlier today, so there would be time to take her in to the vet before they close if something worsens. But now I will shift back into a positive mind-frame again for my first good thing of the day and be very grateful that, overall, she is looking better.

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm glad Luna seems to be improving and pray the trend continues! I hope her appetite comes back full strength soon, too. But showing an interest in food and activity is a good sign for sure!

[addy]

I think that sounds pretty darn good even though we have the issue of the new sore and the iffy poo.!!!!

Maybe the antibiotics are bothering her. I know Peg has a probiotic, does Luna? Just a thought and then we have to remember to give it about 4 hours apart.

I hope things continue to improve, Marianne. Hugs to you all.

[Budsters Mom]

First Luna, now Peg with foot issues. Could they have stepped in something by chance which has irritated their feet?:confused:

I am so glad that Luna is looking better overall. That is a blessing.:p xxxx

[labblab]

Afternoon report: paw is almost back to normal size, and the sore looks better after several hours of wearing the sock (retaping the sock after it pulls off has pretty much been my full-time job today :rolleyes:). Now if we can just get a good poop report, it'll be three for three! :) :) :)

Kathy, Peg has a favorite spot on the side of her "wrist" that she periodically licks into rawness, especially when her allergies flare. That's where she started licking again, so I think it is more "same-old, same-old" for her. I just saw some hornets around our yard when I was outside this afternoon, so I am wondering if maybe our little Luny-Bird stepped on one...:(

[Budsters Mom]

Great report!!!! YAAAAYYYY! :p:p:):):)

Yes, those hornets are nasty!! My brother got stung many years ago on his face. His face swelled so much that it was difficult to see his eyes. He looked like a tomato on steroids! :eek: If Luna stepped on one of those suckers, that would explain EVERYTHING!


Afternoon report: paw is almost back to normal size, and the sore looks better after several hours of wearing the sock

I just saw some hornets around our yard when I was outside this afternoon, so I am wondering if maybe our little Luny-Bird stepped on one...:(

[Trish]

Hiya Marianne

I agree with Addy, bet the antibiotic has upset GI and causing those symptoms. So pleased to read it is settling down, wonder if she did get a sting and then it went all firey and now it is settling she might be getting at the actual spot that was stung... kinda makes sense. Sounds like she is feeling tons better though, so hoping for a good poop report a bit later on! I know that worry of looking at dog poop and thinking is that blood? Hmm maybe not, hmmm maybe it is... worry worry worry! :D x

[labblab]

Yes indeed, I forgot to thank Addy for the probiotic suggestion because I can and will easily give Luna some of Peg's. ;)

I guess I am more paranoid about it being the predisone than the antibiotic causing any blood, though. I don't want her to end up with an ulcer :eek:.

We shall see what the next poop brings. As much as I want to pretend it wasn't, that last little bit was pretty much maroon.:o

[Trish]

Yes indeed, I forgot to thank Addy for the probiotic suggestion because I can and will easily give Luna some of Peg's. ;)

I guess I am more paranoid about it being the predisone than the antibiotic causing any blood, though. I don't want her to end up with an ulcer :eek:.

We shall see what the next poop brings. As much as I want to pretend it wasn't, that last little bit was pretty much maroon.:o

Photo please, and we can give our measured opinions!! :eek:

[Harley PoMMom]

Luna's paw and hornets got me thinking...I was deweeding the other day and and my hand found a yellow jackets nests which was underground! :eek: One of those buggers stung me on the top of my middle finger, it only hurt for a bit. About a hour later the top of that hand swelled up, I have never had a bad reaction to a bee sting so I don't know what was up with that. I just wonder if Luna did get stung on her paw. :confused:

So glad to hear she is feeling better and I do hope her poops return to normal.

Hugs, Lori

[Budsters Mom]

Thread Hijack... Bee stings

Lori,
We get tons of bees in our backyard. The pool draws them. I have been stung many times with little reaction. Then a couple of years ago I was stung on the finger. My entire hand and arm swelled tight and fevered. I took a mass dose of Benadryl and went directly to urgent care. I was told that I had reached my limit of stings and my body couldn't handle anymore. I had to have a steroid shot and take prednisone for several days, along with Benadryl. Last year, I was stung on the toe at work. My foot and leg immediately swelled all the way to my thigh. I had to be taken to emergency. You may have reached your sting limit, so be careful Lori. Additional stings could be dangerous for you.

[labblab]

You ladies can hijack any time! And continuing with the theme, I'm thinking that Trish may be on to something as far as the sore between Luna's toes: it may be where the original sting or bite happened because there is definitely a swollen, irritated lump there that now seems more than just her having licked it. I wonder if a stinger might even still be in there...

Good news on the poop front, though. Both last night and this morning were OK. So that's my first good thing for the day! But behaviorally I think we are at a standstill until she's done with the meds and the lump is gone. Poor thing looks and acts just like a Cushpup with all her restlessness, panting, drinking and peeing. And the sock/sore is keeping her activity pretty restricted so it's harder for me to judge how she's really feeling. If it wasn't for that, I'd be turning her out in the yard again on her own, or seeing if she wanted to go for a walk. She'll eat all her food but only if I handfeed her the last bit and that is very unlike her so I do wonder about tummy upset. Tomorrow morning is the last dose of prednisone. Tomorrow evening will have been five days of simplicef which is the shortest possible course, but I guess we will need to continue it until the sore has resolved. Darn the sore -- it is definitely complicating things!

I'm not sure what to do with it other than spraying it periodically with the Vetericyn and keeping the sock on. I was all set to use the Hibiclens but I read a warning not to use it on raw, broken skin for risk of irritating further. And I think topical antibacterial ointments can actually end up irritating, too, if you keep using them. So since she's taking the simplicef, I think I will just keep the area clean and otherwise leave it alone and give it the weekend to try to heal. If it is no better by Monday, it would seem best to let regular vet take a look and see what he thinks is going on there. At any rate, that's my gameplan as of 7:00 this morning!

[SasAndYunah]

Marianne, maybe it's an idea for both Luna and Peg to soak their feet in a solution of povidone iodine. It's anti fungal, anto bacterial, anti yeast and best of all, not toxic :) It can be used for all sorts of things and as a matter of fact, it can be very helpful for dogs with allergie like complaints due to walking through grass, lawns that were sprayed with some chemicals, all sorts of iritants. Dog's feet are exposed to all sorts of things, day in, day out. Just make it a habit of soaking their feet at the end of every day and that may prevent all sorts of troubles, pawlicking or - chweing.

Just add a small amount of water to (depending on the size of the dog) the sink for a small dog or a bucket for a very large dog (in this case it's one paw at the time). Add some povidone iodine till it has the colour of iced tea :) Soak the paws for about 2 till 5 minutes. You need enough to cover the pads, no more.

You don't have to rinse it off, just pat the paws dry.

This would be a great, new, daily routine, for all dogs. We too often forget how important those paws are and how much they have to endure. They truly deserve some extra special care :)

Hope everything continues to go well...

Sas and Quincy :)

[labblab]

Oh Sas, thank you for this great tip! And also for mentioning earlier about the foxtails. I had forgotten all about them being an issue, but now remember that Barkis' breeder in California lost one of her beloved field champions when a foxtail went up his nose and somehow migrated to his brain :eek:. We don't have so many of them in our part of the country, but there are lots of other prickly grasses or weeds that could also be a problem. So along with a bee stinger, something like that could be the problem for Luna. It is not obvious to me, but that doesn't mean there isn't still something in her paw. I hope it is a good sign that she will now let me handle her paw really freely, though. At least it isn't hurting as badly as before.

[Budsters Mom]

Fox tails are really bad here. I remember Buddy getting one trapped way down in his ear canal. He had many Ear infections that did not clear. Finally when they cleaned it out, they found the fox tail. They are horrid little buggers.:eek::eek::mad: I am diligent now about checking the backyard for anything that even resembles a fox tail.

Regarding Luna's foot. Buddy stepped on a bee several years ago. His foot immediately swelled up like Lunas. He was treated the same way. With steroids, antibiotics and Benadryl. When the swelling finally went down, he could not leave it alone. He kept chewing at a small raw spot between his toes. I took him back to the vet. That's when they found the stinger still embedded in his foot. After the stinger was out, he left it alone. Luna could have something still in embedded in her paw. :(:o

[Budsters Mom]

Hey Marianne, just dropping in to check on Luna today. How's that paw looking?

[molly muffin]

Yep, I'm checking in too and really hope that Luna's paw is recovering nicely and Peg is doing okay also.

And that You are getting more rest these days (errr nights) :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

Make that 3 of us checking in:):):):):):)

[Squirt's Mom]

Four of us.

[labblab]

Thanks so much for checking, guys! Sorry I didn't give an update last night, but I was at my mom's apartment helping her with some stuff so dad had doggie duty.

Good news re: the paw :) :). After 48 hours of wearing the sock (boy, what a pain!), her paw is mightily improved with just some dry, scabby areas remaining. So if I can just keep her from licking it raw again, I think we can claim victory. Overall, she is much more her normal self in terms of her daily routines -- tail wagging and wanting to play.

I'm also so glad we're done with the prednisone -- last dose yesterday morning. In addition to the drinking/peeing, she has been so restless with panting and rapid labored breathing at times. I am assuming (hoping!) that will all improve as the day progresses and the pred starts to wear off.

Speaking of the yard, she did give me a start last night when I finally let her out loose to pee on her own again. She put her head down to sniff at something in the grass and then quickly jumped away and I thought "oh no, has she gotten bit by something again???" :eek: :eek: But she didn't yelp or anything, and seemed fine afterwards, thank goodness. I couldn't see anything in the dark, but I am going out there today in the daylight and really try to look things over to see if I can see anything in the grass, like a hornet nest or something. I sure don't want to start this all over again!!! :o

[mytil]

Glad her foot is better. I surely hope there is nothing in the yard. We have voles and they are fierce and fast. I am wondering if she was nipped by one. I have seen one of my girls leap in the air like that and have now they all have learned to leave them alone.

[labblab]

Wow, Terry, that is a thought!

We do have voles around here, too, but I always figured they were timid like little mice. Just Googled them and found out differently :eek: and that they can even carry rabies. Yikes! One more thing to worry about. :(

I will definitely go out today and check the yard for holes or burrows. I do know we have rabbits, though.

[Squirt's Mom]

I wasn't exactly sure what a "vole" was so I looked it up with the ever entertaining Wiki and here is what it had to say in part about voles (may I say I am now thoroughly confused but can understand why a dog would jump from one? :p )


They are the newest Mammoth ally. Voles help Mammoths kill Emys.

[lulusmom]

Les, I think it may be a typo....could they have meant to type mole? If not a typo, then only people in Maryland and Georgia know what a vole is. I read the definition and still don't know what it is but apparently it can carry rabies. I've never heard of a rabid vole either.

[labblab]

OK girls, here you go as to what voles are (and nope, they are not the same as moles). ;)

http://www.unitedwildlife.com/AnimalsVoles.html

[Squirt's Mom]

And they help mammoths kill things! :eek::eek::eek::p It's the use of the present tense "help" in Wiki, as opposed to the past tense "helped", juxtaposed with the mention of some strange dentition in voles that was funny to me. Must be some bada$$ teeth if a mammoth "has" need of them in order to put an end to Emys (whatever those are!). Did they maybe leave out an "m" and it should be Emmys? :D

Oh, never mind - an Emy is a genus of turtle, apparently ponds turtles...which makes me wonder about THEM now if mammoths "need" help killing them! :p

[Budsters Mom]

I never heard of a vole either. It must be some sort of southern varmint. You better get that pot a boiling Marianne, just in case you find one. They probably make plum good vittles. lol :D:D:D:D:D

So glad to hear that Luna's paw is healing up nicely and she's more her old self again.:p xxxooo

[labblab]

Yep, a traditional dish around these parts is Brunswick Stew which is supposed to be made with squirrel but probably some voles would work just fine. ;) :p

Seriously, though, they are really cute little munchkins, and I had no idea until today that they can be aggressive and mean. :eek: :eek:

[Budsters Mom]

Curious, have you actually seen one or just from pictures? They look a little like a hamster on steroids in the photos, but pretty darn cute.

[labblab]

I've seen them racing across streets in front of the car. They do look a lot like hamsters, but they are actually smaller than most hamsters, I think. They are definitely cute!

[molly muffin]

Wow, never heard of a vole before.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[mytil]

Really, ya'll have not heard of voles?!? I have seen them in my yard and they can be pretty vocal as well if you get too near them. Next time I will take a photo if I am fast enough. Here is another reference of mammals in MD http://dnr.maryland.gov/wildlife/Plants_Wildlife/mammals.asp

Here is the difference: http://northernwoodlands.org/images/articles/mole_vole.jpg

[labblab]

OK, guys, here's another update on Luna. Since so much has normalized, I had been hoping that today's might be my final note. But when I took the girls out for a short walk this morning, Luna seemed to me as though she was favoring that leg a bit more again, as though she is still having some flaring discomfort. Not that it would be surprising after all that inflammation, but I've wondered whether there was still something lodged in the paw after all. Plus, she was pretty subdued, overall, on the walk. So I decided to go ahead and let regular vet see her today since tomorrow will again be his off day (hard to believe it has already been a week!).

He shaved the toe that still had a residual scab and examined it closely after removing the scab. He does not think there is anything left behind, but does suspect that it is likely the spot where she was originally stung or bitten. So he thinks she is still having some continuing discomfort from whatever happened, and also that she may still be feeling some lingering side effects from the pred. Now that the fur has been shaved, I am to directly apply antibiotic ointment X3 daily and also resume the simplicef for five more days. And, of course, contact him if anything changes. It will be interesting to see whether she starts getting picky with her food again, because yesterday she was finally eating normally again after being off all the drugs for a day. And I sure hope she will leave the toe alone because it is such a pain trying to keep it covered with that sock!

So we are not quite finished yet with the saga. But hopefully she will truly perk up again by the end of the week.

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm glad her regular vet got to take a good look at her and I hope the worst is over. Bless her heart, that has to be sore. :(

[Budsters Mom]

So glad you had her checked out while your vet was in today. If she's still favoring it, it hurts! Poor little girl. :o I know you were anxious to get her off of the meds, but a few more days of antibiotics adds a little insurance in case of a lingering infection.

Oh the socks.:o Memories, memories.... I had to buy baby socks for Buddy when he stepped on the bee. I couldn't keep those suckers on. He'd pull it off to get to the wound, just as soon as I got it on. :o:( It finally healed and Luna's paw will too. Give it a few more days. ;)

[molly muffin]

Glad she got to see her regular vet. Good to know nothing likely left in there and that he thinks bite or sting too.
Yep best to go the safe route and stick to antibiotics a bit longer

Hang in there!

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[mytil]

glad things are looking better here. It is always the little things that cause so much trouble. A little bee caused Myclan to swell up like a balloon - that is how we found out she was very allergic to bees.

Oh it is so hard for them not pick at it or lick it --- when someone finds something that works, let me know. I tried the socks too --- not...

Keep us posted Marianne.

T.

[Budsters Mom]

How is Luna's paw? Are you finally getting any rest? xxxooo

[labblab]

Oh Kathy, thanks for asking. I think we've finally got the paw healing up for good, although it's been a challenge along the way. The bad part was that after it got shaved at the vet, Luna was back to licking it raw again. So I had to watch her really closely and I resorted to the sock when I was out of the house. Well, on Friday, my worst fear about that was realized -- I came home and it obviously had pulled off and most of the sock had been eaten. The only good part was that the little part that was left was all frayed on the edges, so it looked like it had been chewed rather than swallowed whole. Of course I have been anxiously monitoring poop ever since. I've seen a few little pieces, although not enough to account for the whole sock, I don't think. But there is nothing wrong with her appetite nor disposition, so I will have to hope that everything keeps on flowing through. No more socks for her ever again, though, unless maybe I can try some of those socks on suspenders that either Addy or Glynda wrote about some time ago.

As for her paw, it is no longer raw and there is no obvious issue, but she is still favoring it a bit. Is it the paw or is it that old chronic mystery issue? Dunno. But I am hugely grateful that at least the acute issue seems to be over and done with!

[labblab]

Oops, I may have spoken too soon -- Luna's paw looks a bit swollen to me again just now :(. But it is not red or raw, and we did go for a pretty long walk this morning. So maybe she is still just suffering some after-effects from all the earlier inflammation. Of course, I will keep my eye on it and maybe should opt for less vigorous exercise for a while longer...

[Budsters Mom]

AWWWW! Poor little girl.:o Something is still going on there.:o Was she favoring it on your walk today?

[labblab]

Yes, she has continued to favor that leg/paw at times ever since the original episode, and was doing so a little bit this morning (although it didn't keep her from tearing off after a squirrel!). But the hard part diagnostically is that she was periodically limping long before that, as well, for reasons that have been unknown. I will definitely keep my eye on things today, though.

[molly muffin]

Luna just has some mystery surrounding that paw from before. I wonder if the injury (bite or what ever it was) caused a relapse of the previous unknown problem too, or it might be all part of the same picture that involves some inflammation too, which can come and go.

Hang in there Marianne and hopefully this will all be better soon. I'd probably limit long walks for a bit though don't ya think.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

Well, come on sweet Peg,give mama a clue as to what is wrong with your foot.

If only they could talk

[Budsters Mom]

Remember Addy, it's Peg's thread, but Luna's foot. ;)

[Squirt's Mom]

Geez, is it contagious!? Yesterday Fox got up limping and holding her right front paw up when standing. On inspection, nothing but she would react when I touched one particular toe. I looked very closely, nothing to see, massaged it a bit then put her back down and she was better but still limping a bit. This morning, nada, no limp, and she's springing and jumping as usual. :rolleyes: She's a bit like Tigger - boing boing boing! :D

I hope Luna is better and not worse this morning! I was thinking about how to better protect the foot and thought about the rubber traction footies...but if she will eat a sock off she could sure eat those things off! :p

[Trish]

Hi Marianne, awww stink with the renewed limping, darn foot!! :eek::eek: on eating the sock though... that won't do Luna!! Oh dearie me, the tummy was a bit off a while back I seem to remember, well now it is getting an inside scrub from passing sock :eek: Hmmm wonder what that long term limp is due too.. then this sudden flare... now back to occasional limp. I hate not knowing lol... hope something declares itself soon!! xx

[Trish]

Saw this on my FB this morning, something for you labs to do?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tYeyChFB0

[addy]

dang, I called Luna Peg:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

[labblab]

Awwwwww....TOO CUTE!!!!! :) :) :) :)

OK, Trish, to take your mind off Flynny, here's a "what would you do" question...

It is now two weeks since the bite/sting/whatever. After a couple of days, the horrible acute issues all resolved, but we were left with a limp and a scabby area on one of the toes. Took her back to be seen a week ago, which I now regret because the scab was torn off and the toe shaved, all for naught because nothing was seen. But of course, that irritated the skin and also made Luna fuss with the toe. I was to put on antibiotic ointment, but of course she licked it off. So I taped on a sock which she pulled off and consumed. So I've left the toe open to the air with no more ointment because there is no redness and no open lesion. She finished 5 days of pred at the beginning, finished 10 days of oral antibiotic over the weekend.

But...she is still favoring the paw and the toe is still "bigger" than it should be. Not red, not inflamed, but a bit swollen. Kind of like lick granuloma which would make sense although I never catch her licking. And otherwise she seems to be her happy energetic normal self. Monday is a holiday here so we are facing a three-day weekend and I don't want an emergency crisis, though. So here comes the drum roll...and what would you do???

I can take her back to the vet tomorrow, but I truly don't know what there is to see. She's been x-rayed once and examined twice and nobody sees any foreign object or stinger. I really don't like the limp and I really don't think it's right that her toe hasn't normalized, but maybe she is still having residual inflammation?? I have four doses of the same antiobiotic left from Peg's UTI and could give it through the weekend. But after a break of five days, is that a bad thing to do in the absence of a confirmed infection?

My own thought is that I will definitely take her back next week if this hasn't resolved, but I'd rather just limp through the weekend (no pun intended) if we can because if I take her in, the vets will feel obligated to "do" something (like I wish hadn't been done last week because I think the shaved toe may have contributed to this while mess!). So I absolutely will not hold you responsible for any recommendation, but would you give the antiobiotic? (And of course I am happy to hear opinions from everybody else, too!)

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

If it is not red or inflamed looking I think I would hold off. No fluctuant areas to indicate a collection under the skin??

Flynn has had a couple of inter digital cysts, they did take quite a while to get back to normal. He had antibiotics and I remember it was not totally back to normal by the time they finished. He is hopeless with creams as well and I would usually put the cream on and sit next to him with the paw under the blanket until it had at least 'sunk' in a bit and not have a big blob of it on there. Think I would keep on with that. It was weird as I was sure something was in there, but they had a real good look with a big set of magnifier glasses thingamy and turns out they were right! Sounds like it has got re irritated with the cleanup... so think if it was me I would give it a bit of time.

What are the antibiotics you have?

[labblab]

Back in action again after my brief dinner break :)! Just checked your thread, so we are still awaiting news on Flynny!

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you re: Luna. Nothing sinister that I can tell under the skin. The oral antibiotic is simplicef for cellulitis. The ointment is a bit more complicated, because AMA I did not apply what the vet gave me :o :o. ( I always confess, and thank goodness my vet usually forgives me). But when I got home, I found he had given me a quadruple thingey that included neomycin. When Hubby had a basal cell taken off his nose, his surgeon specifically said no, no, no to neomycin because it triggers so many allergic reactions. So I had some Polysporin on hand (which the surgeon had approved) and used that instead. The loss was a steroid component, but I could mix some cortizone cream in with the Polysporin...:o

[Harley PoMMom]

My "ole country" doctor would recommend witch hazel to reduce swelling and for stings/insect bites. I keep it in my frig so when I need to use it, it has a soothing coolness to it. Witch hazel can be used on dogs so maybe try it on dear Luna's paw?

[Trish]

I have an antibiotic cream, must be similar as it has neomycin in it too. Plus the steroid. It has always worked well on Flynny :eek: I always have some in his med container and put it on anything itchy, sore or red! It also has some local anaesthetic in it which relieves things too.

Funny about confession time with the vets, think a few of us do that!! I know I do too :p

[mytil]

I am so very sorry she is having these problems still! This is a mystery for sure.

It seems to get better and then there is a relapse. She may have to have a break from walks for a bit.

I am wondering if there is something else going on further up the leg and this is just a by-product. I know you mentioned she had an x-ray....was that just the foot or entire leg and shoulder?

Not to add to your worries on this but this was my experience with Myclan and Lyme. For months she limped or had a hoppy gait intermittently and would lick her back feet til parts were raw. X-rays, antibiotics, steroid cream, diet change, little exercise and it would "go away" only to return. I asked for another Lyme test and yep that was the problem. Since her last dose of 35 days of antibiotics no symptoms at all and she has not licked her feet at all.

I am not saying this is what is happening, but have you had a Lyme titer done?

T.

[labblab]

Well, I took Kathy's wonderful suggestion ;), and split off Luna's posts to create a thread that's her very own. :)

Thanks everybody for all your thoughts and suggestions from yesterday and today, and I will come back later to mull them over with you...

(And Luna thanks you especially, Kathy, for prodding her mom into starting a new thread and suggesting such a lovely name. :p)

[Budsters Mom]

Yes, love the new thread title. It's brilliant! lol :D Yes, our sweet girl deserves her own thread. :p

I don't have any suggestions for her troublesome paw, so I'm sending hugs instead. :p

[addy]

Oh Good, Luna has her own "home":):):):):)

Love it and I hope things get figured out.

[molly muffin]

Well isn't that something. I had a moment of what the ^%$# when I went to pop in and check in on Luna and couldn't find her!! hahahaha Luna's thread is a great idea!! Just what Luna ordered. LOL

Not sure about the paw, other than let it rest and see if it goes down on it's own.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

How is the paw today? Trinket is gnawing on mine instead of her own at the moment! :p

[Budsters Mom]

What is happening with Lovely Luna's paw today? Still limping?

[labblab]

Thanks for asking, girls! I left Luna home both yesterday and today while I took Peg all on her own for a walk. Thankfully dad was home (four-day holiday for him) and could spoil Luna by fussing over her in the house. I think the enforced rest may have helped because I am not noticing her limping and I think the lump on her toe is smaller today. At any rate, she is mot worse so I will take that as a victory. :)

[molly muffin]

whoo hoooo! A bit of a break may help things more than anything else at this point. Good job mom!
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

It's a win, win all around!:p Luna gets to spend quality time with dad while her paw rests. Peg gets to spend quality time with mom. So glad Luna's paw seems to be doing better.

[Budsters Mom]

Well Marianne, has Luna's paw healed up or is she still favoring it? Checking in with you for an update on our girl.

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

I always think about your lovely labs when one pops up on my timeline.... this one was really, really, REALLY in a hurry for a swim! :eek::D http://twistedsifter.com/videos/gopro-dog-sprints-to-water/

Hope all good with the girls! x

[labblab]

Thanks for checking in on us, girls. And I love how you keep your eye out for the Labs, Trish! :p

Luna's paw looks pretty much normal now except that it is still fairly naked from the shaving. I'm surprised the fur is not growing back any faster than it is. It seems to me that there is still a bit of residual "fullness" between her two toes, but the area is smaller than before and it may just be appearing that way because I scrutinize it so much more without the fur there.

It also seems as though she may still be slightly favoring that leg, too, but it is no longer pronounced and may have nothing at all to do with the paw, even if she is. I keep promising to post her whole long history of intermittent limping and will still do so when I can get my brain organized, because she definitely has had issues that preceded the whole swollen paw crisis and may be resurfacing again.

We are in the midst of having the siding replaced on our house and the whole exterior repainted, and that is claiming my attention for the moment. I feel guilty because I have not proceeded any further with the urine testing of Peg or any more follow-up with Luna. But I am not a good multi-tasker and it seems as though something new keeps cropping up to stress me in relation to the home improvements :o. I have to say the girls have been angels, though. I can't let them loose in the backyard at all, so I have to take them out front on leash any time they need to potty. And what with all the noise and ladders and windows wide open, I can't believe how calm they've been. They are handling the uproar a whole lot better than I am, that's for sure. I am hoping that things will mostly be done by the end of the week.

But Miss Luna appreciates you asking about her, and would be much happier if we were taking more walks regardless of whether she's still slightly gimpy or not!

[mytil]

good to hear!!

T.

[Budsters Mom]

Such good girls you have there!;) Happy to hear that Luna's paw is healing. :p

[Dixie'sMom]

Well I was quite surprised and pleased to find this thread and realize you have 2 more babies at home named Luna and Peg! I'm off to find pictures and read stories. :D ;)

[molly muffin]

This is most excellent news in regards to Luna's paw. Home repair can drive anyone nuts.

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

So glad to hear that Luna's paw is better!!

[labblab]

Sooo...Luna was in for her annual exam in January. All her labwork was normal except for her ALT being just a couple points above range. Her ALKP was clear down in the bottom range of normal. A week after she'd been in, a small clump of fur pulled out on her back leaving a nasty, red, goopy lesion. Called the vet back, I put some ointment on it for a couple of days, and the skin quickly healed. So that was that, or so I thought.

Since that time...the skin remained healed, but the fur never really grew back fully. Every time I see that little divot, I think "that is odd." She developed one more spot about a month ago, and I have recently noticed what seems like a symmetrical thinning of fur on both of her haunches. It reminds me of the beginning of a hair loss pattern that I've seen once before :o. She has been shedding abnormally crazy -- whole clumps of fur. Her whole life up until the last few months, she hardly drank or peed much at all. Now, whenever I turn her out, she pees and pees and pees. Today I found three new angry lesions erupting on her back.
So obviously there is some sort of chronic infection going on.

People, you know where I am going here. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Not leaping to any conclusions, mind you. Could be multiple reasons for multiple issues.

But you know what I am thinking. :o :o :o

Just had to go ahead and voice it for a moment, but now I will try not to stress and just follow along the diagnostic path. Taking her back in tomorrow and I suspect we will start with a dermatology referral. Luna herself is happy and energetic and carefree except for hating me examining her skin so much! She hightails it into her crate whenever she sees me coming toward her today. :rolleyes:

Surely hoping for some easy answers and a problem that will be solved with medicated shampoo. No need to borrow trouble yet, right?

[Budsters Mom]

I'm not liking the sound of any of this.:o Hopefully it's just a little infection that will quickly clear up. Get any Cushing's thoughts out of your pretty little head right now! I refuse to go there and you should too for now!;):eek: Keep us posted!

Kathy

[molly muffin]

It's hard once we know or have experienced something, not to be worried about seeing elsewhere too. So I'm hoping this is nerves and she's got a bit of skin infection going on, and that it will clear up. Maybe take a pee sample in and have it cultured to see if there is any infection there that she might need some antibiotics for too.

We can totally be proactive on other fronts before opening the gate to any other paths.

Hang in there Marianne! Dang ole devil on your shoulder scenerio.

hugs

[labblab]

Of course you are right, girls. But no matter what kind of skin infection I google (fungus, yeast, bacteria), they all say that adult dogs do not have chronic multiple lesions in the absence of a suppressed immune system. And of course the C word is typically at the top of the list of underlying issues.

[And yes, I also know I should STOP GOOGLING!!!!! Somebody needs to put a lock on my search button...]

[molly muffin]

I know what you mean. Google is both a blessing and curse sometimes.

But you don't know anything YET, so eliminate the other possibilities first.

If it is the "c" word, then that is a bridge to cross when we get there.

huggers lock and key that search button!

[Budsters Mom]

Okay, it's time for a break, or maybe an intervention.;)

Put your iPad down and step away

It's not going anywhere. It will still be there happily waiting for you when you return. Luna feels fine, but doesn't like being messed with. So, go play with those beautiful girls for now. That's an order!:D

[labblab]

Yes, ma'am! :o :o :o :o

Actually, it's their suppertime and The Girls really love their Mama at suppertime. :) :) :)

So off I go. See you later. ;)

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne - From what I can recall as to your menu selections, I would probably LOVE you at suppertime too! :D:D:D I rushed my dad to the ER a few days ago with chest pain. I've been going back-and-forth to the hospital, so the menu selection around my house has been sparse. Your girls are probably eating better than I am these days.;)

Please try to remember your vow to enjoy every precious moment and try not to fret quite so much. it's hard! Believe me I know!:o

[judymaggie]

I hope you have followed orders and stayed away from your computer!

[Squirt's Mom]

Praying this is nothing major and just allergies, right? Right! Allergies.

[labblab]

Thanks guys. And yup, who knows, it may be allergies. We're back from the vet. He thinks it is staph. My biggest worry was ringworm since that is so contagious to humans, too. But the hair samples didn't "light up" under a Woods Lamp, so that makes ringworm much less likely. He is doing a ringworm culture just to make sure it is ruled out, but from the appearance, he feels pretty certain it is staph. Why is her skin compromised enough to allow the staph to grow -- that is the question, of course. Could indeed be allergies, or something environmental, or something systemic.

Anyway, before racing off to the dermatologist, he suggests doing the simplest things first. Three weeks of oral antibiotics, and weekly medicated baths with a broad-spectrum antibiotic/antifungal shampoo. No matter what's causing it, we'd want to get the overt infection under control, regardless. Hopefully we can eradicate it and it won't come back. If it doesn't resolve or if it returns, then we'll need to look deeper. I still think it's worrisome that the first lesion appeared clear back in January. That signals something chronic going on to me. Just sayin'. But I'll stuff that worry in a drawer for the time being.

One fringe benefit of the meds will be treatment for a UTI if Luna actually has one. Initially I was planning to take in a urine sample next week, but now a UTI would end up being treated, as well. We both agree it will be interesting if this makes a difference in her peeing.

So I came home with a big bottle of Simplicef -- half for Luna and half for Peg! Peg has an interdigital cyst that I'm been mucking with for over six weeks now, putting on ointment and taping a sock over it. But it is not healing, either, so time for some oral meds for her, too.

So that's where we are. I rewarded Luna with a lovely walk at the lake afterwards. We have had such crappy wet weather lately, but today is a beauty! So we'll proceed with the plan, and for the moment I'll just stick a bookmark in Luna's thread (and I promise to quit Googling, at least for the time being! ;))

[Budsters Mom]

Hmmmmm..... Very interesting… Did the vet do a skin scraping to test for Staph, as well as Ringworm? Since Peg seems to have an infection from her cyst, could Luna have gotten the bacteria from her or vice versa? Could they be sharing bacteria? Just wondering.....
I'd want to culture that bacteria, find out what it is and make sure I had the right antibiotic. Luna's first nodule was in January. This crap has been in her system for a while. I would want to know what it was. Not trying to scare you my dear. I just don't like infections. They scare the bejeebees out of me!:o:eek:

[labblab]

Yes, he is definitively testing for ringworm in two ways. Both involve combing out hair samples that would have the fungal spores attached if it is ringworm. First thing is to shine a Woods Lamp on the sample; 50% of genuine ringworm samples will fluoresce. Luna's sample did not. So the next step is to culture the sample in a specific medium, which we are doing. But it can take a long time to grow out if is positive, so it will be a couple of weeks before we know for certain.

However, he said he has seen a lot of ringworm (caught it several times himself :eek:) in his practice, and it does not look like ringworm to him. It looks like staph. I realize "looks like" is not a definitive answer and perhaps I should have pushed for a bacterial culture. But last night (while I was still allowed to Google ;)), I saw a couple dermatology blogs where vets said they don't necessarily routinely culture for staph when the lesion has a really characteristic appearance. If the problem persists or recurs in the face of a broad-spectrum antibiotic like Simplicef, however, we will definitely need to pursue diagnosis further.

From what I have read, aside from ringworm, most canine yeast/bacterial skin infections are not contagious. Peg's cyst presents entirely differently from the spots on Luna's back. But even if the same type of infection is involved, I think they probably each sprouted the problem on their own, as it were.

Having said all that, I agree it is never a bad idea to culture. But we have spent so much over the last couple of months on all of Peg's testing and urine cultures that I did not press the point today to do another culture beyond the ringworm. That decision may turn out to bite me in the butt, but I hope not. If the Simplicef does not help, we will have no choice but to dig deeper.

[Harley PoMMom]

Some anti seizure medications do have the ability to suppress the immune system, I've also come across an article which states that these types of drugs may create what is known as "Antiepileptic hypersensitivity syndrome"
Aromatic AEDs such as phenytoin, carbamazepine, and phenobarbital, as well as some newer agents, including lamotrigine, oxcarbazepine, felbamate, and zonisamide, have been implicated in eliciting a whole repertoire of hypersensitivity reactions ranging from simple maculopapular skin eruptions...

I would think, though, if she were going to have a reaction to the pheno it would have been in the beginning of her taking it.

Hoping that the antibiotics and baths take care of that staph infection.

[labblab]

I think poor Peg has a whole range of possible explanations for a screwed-up immune system. That's why nothing she ever does or sprouts really surprises me now! Her cyst is actually really, really tiny. It has a little raw center, though, that makes Peg want to lick at her paw any chance she gets. So I'd really like to get the darned thing totally healed.

Luna is the unpleasant surprise, though. Up to now, aside from her periodic limping :rolleyes:, she has seemed totally healthy. Great skin, great coat, great GI system. So this skin infection has really come out of the blue for her. Hopefully, it will pass and never return!

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Marianne, I apologize for getting your sweet girls mixed up...Peg takes the pheno not Luna :o:o

[labblab]

Oh Lori, that's OK! Peg does have a lot of issues that could stem from immunosuppression, so that info you gave is interesting regardless of which thread you posted it on. :)

[mytil]

Marianne,

I am sorry your girls are continuing to have these problems. Poor girls.....and you and Jim too.

[SasAndYunah]

You and Luna are about a week into the oral antibiotic and the weekly baths... How is she doing at this time? Can you notice some improvement? I hope so :)

Sas and Quincy :)

[labblab]

Sas, thanks so much for asking. I am speaking softly so as not to jinx things, but so far so good! I have not found any new lesions and overall, Luna's coat is looking better. She did have another one of her darn mystery limping episodes over the weekend, but as of yesterday, she was rarin' to go for a regular walk again. So all seems to be good this morning. She'll get her next bath again on Saturday. The shampoo smells awful, but if it does the job, that's all that matters. ;)

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I will keep my fingers and toes crossed Marianne athat she continues to do better and no more lesions show up.
Hugs

[Budsters Mom]

How are the girls? Luna's crusts? Peg's paw? Both's mobility? What is happening in lab land?:D

[labblab]

Luna's original spots are still somewhat crusty but they stopped spreading after the first bath, and we've not had a new spot break out ever since starting the treatment. YAY! Her third bath will come on Saturday, and she still has ten days left on the antibiotic. Oh, and the culture was indeed negative for ringworm.

Peg's paw is still pretty much the same. It actually looked better for a couple of hours one day after she had a chance to lick it for a while after pulling off her sock without me noticing. It seemed as though the little abscess had drained. Hubby said it must be the healing power of dog spit! :D :)

But by the next day it had filled back up again. It's so frustrating because it is really such a tiny little cyst. I'll go ahead and finish the final week of antibiotics, but I don't think that is going to do the trick. Maybe out of desperation I'll leave the sock off and just let her go to town on it for a while, just to see what happens. :rolleyes:

Thank you for asking!

[Trish]

Hey Marianne

Sounds like all going pretty good, those cysts can be such a nuisance at times when they refill like that. Flynn hates me meddling with his paws, they get tucked under so I cannot get at them and doing his nails is a vet only job haha he has never forgiven me for cutting one too short and making it bleed when he was a young'un! Memory like an elephant! I remember reading once that they used to get dogs to lick wounds (on humans!) to clean them :eek::eek::eek: something in the spit lol... trouble is they sometimes to town so much they do more damage. If it is tiny would she let the vet nip it off under local to get rid of it once and for good? x

[labblab]

Well......just found another stinky, goopy sore on Luna. :( :(

Just to bring things up-to-date, here's a note I had posted on Peg's thread about a week ago.


I'll quickly comment on Luna, although I should probably write about her on her own thread. But after six weeks without any new skin outbreaks, we just now found a new dime-sized sore this morning when we bathed her. We were very bad and let her go for three weeks between medicated baths, and I think we are paying the price. Of course, the bigger issue is that since we found a new sore today, it means the spring outbreak was not just a one-time episode and we have to wonder what is at the bottom of it. But if we can keep ahead of the overt problem by bathing more often and doping the spot up with a topical ointment, I may put off getting started with a bunch of involved testing. She otherwise seems perfectly fine (I've stopped worrying about her peeing), and I just don't have it in me right now to head in to a specialist. So I think we'll stick with "wait and see" mode for a while longer. I'll talk it over with our vet when I take Peg in for her labwork.

So, today "Nurse Peg" found another spot on Luna (I've discovered it is NOT a good thing when Peg starts sniffing Luna's back! :o). More of the same, so I guess at a minimum we need to go ahead and get this stuff cultured. Unfortunately, my car is in the shop right now and won't be fixed until at least Thursday. And then there's the holiday -- don't know if the vet is open on Friday or not. Plus, that darn new canine flu has just arrived here so everybody is panicking about exposing their dogs to sick dogs. Soooooooo I am guessing it may be at least next week before I take her in to be seen.

Just wanted to go ahead and whine a little bit now, though. Dang it!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[molly muffin]

oh man, hoped there wouldn't be any more show up, but has to be some reason for them.

I know I would be nervous too about taking a healthy dog into where there might be the canine flu. arggghhh alway something to worry about it seems.

Still, maybe you can get her in and out and no kenneling.

Crossing fingers for you and Luna Marianne

[Budsters Mom]

Whine all you want to Marianne. It is a scientific fact that whining does help. ;)

What is hubby's take on all of this? I know that you handle most of it, but he is generally pretty helpful and levelheaded when it comes to his fur babies.

I think we've all been hoping that this situation would somehow just resolve itself, but I do believe it's time to look a little deeper into what is causing these nasty outbreaks. :o:(

Keep whining, I mean updating us on our Lovely Luna

[Squirt's Mom]

I'd whine, too, Marianne....in fact, if you need harmony, I'll whine with you. :D These sores are enough to worry about without the added fear of this flu. Let us know how sweet Luna is doing and what the vet has to say when you get her in. Does anyone know why cars end up in the shop at the most inopportune times? Is that in the owner's manual anywhere? :p

[labblab]

Luna sprouted several more spreading spots over the last couple of days, so I took her in this morning for a culture and sensitivity. Regular vet is on vacation, so somebody else did the sampling and I didn't try to discuss anything else in detail. I'll await the culture results and our regular vet's return.

In the meantime, we are to increase the baths to twice weekly. At the vet's, I was dismayed to find that there were more crusty infected areas under her fur than I was even aware of. So I got her into the tub all by myself the minute we got home and tried to scrub her back as well as I could (usually it takes two of us to wrangle her). But she was a good girl for me while Peg stood at the side of the tub and supervised. :o

I am expecting it to turn out to be staph. As to what we do next, I don't know. But at least it will be good to have it identified. So we shall see.

[Budsters Mom]

I just got back from the vet with Rosie and this is not the news that I wanted to hear.:o CRAP!! It looks like those yucky,crusty things aren't going to go away on their own. :o

You are a super mom!:p Wrangling that 80 pound baby into the bathtub by yourself! I would have loved to see that on YouTube with Peg so closely supervising the whole ordeal! ;):D

Is Luna looking and feeling okay otherwise? Keep us posted. OK?

[SasAndYunah]

Shaving her fur off, would help a lot....the medicated shampoo gets in better contact with her skin, the bacteria have less chance to "brew" under the fur and you can keep a better eye on her skin. Not sure how the weather is where you are? If it's too hot and (especially) sunny, it might not be a good idea unless you would take precautions. But otherwise, I would shave her :) We're thinking of you and the girls...

Sas :)

[Harley PoMMom]

Thinking of you and sweet Luna, sending huge and loving hugs, Lori

[Budsters Mom]

Hmmm.... Are the lesions localized to Luna's back? If so, Luna has been on extended rounds of antibiotics before this latest outbreak. The problem keeps reoccurring. If it's something in her bloodstream attacking her immune system, why are the breakouts only appearing on her back?

Also, this stuff does not appear to be contagious because Peg is still crust free after all this time.

I still refused to entertain the idea that it could be CC. Not going there!!! :)

[labblab]

Hey Kathy, no, it definitely is not CC. It most likely is staph, and if so, in most cases it would not be contagious. From what I have been reading, we all have staph crawling all over our skin all the time :eek:, but it does not "blossom" into infectious lesions unless there is something going on that is causing a weakness in the host's skin. One common cause of staph infections in dogs is skin trauma caused by scratching/biting due to allergies. The dog opens up a sore spot and the bacteria invade. However, Luna doesn't itch or scratch herself much at all.

Chronic infections also result when immunosuppression is present due to stuff like Cushing's, low thyroid, etc. Those diseases just leave the whole body in a more weakened state and less able to fight off infections of all kinds, including on the skin. So if there is any break in the skin or irritation at all, the bacteria flourish.

Luna's lesions have been at various spots over her back and sides. So far, she's only been on one three-week course of oral antibiotics, and I guess that is actually a relatively short time when it comes to treating entrenched skin infections. Sometimes they treat for months, but I would hate to have to go there. Some sites I've been to suggest even daily bathing instead. Of course, both the bathing and the drugs don't address the question of why the bacteria is flourishing in the first place.

If we move on to a dermatologist, I guess allergy testing and/or skin biopsy would be obvious options (the biopsy to see if there is actually an abnormality in the skin cells consistent with certain immunosuppressive or autoimmune diseases). But it's hard for me to want to get involved in a whole bunch of expensive testing because she otherwise acts totally normally, and her labwork is all normal. No GI issues (that's Peg's department :o), and I've stopped thinking that her thirst/urination is abnormal, either. So there really is nothing to point a finger at right now. I guess I could try changing her food, but since she does NOT have any GI issues and her weight is really stable, I hate to mess with success in that department.

So I dunno what to think. Sas, your shaving suggestion makes a ton of practical sense, but it is both really hot and really sunny here, plus we are inundated with mosquitoes. Shaving would be something to think about if things worsen, though, which of course I hope they don't!

[SasAndYunah]

I don't hope either that things worsen...yuck :( But I do have another suggestion...can't resist, sorry ;) And perhaps your vet already told you this. But it would also be helpful if you wash the blankets and everything else the girls are lying on, on 140 degrees Fahrenheit. At this temp most of the creepy critters like mites, bateria and such are killed. That will help against re-infection and lessen the bacteriaload on Luna... Also the collar/harness and brushes should be kept as clean/sterile as possible. And eventhough none of this will adress the actual course of why the (most likely) bacteria can grow so abundantly, it still is important to get them under control :) Daily baths are not a bad idea either by the way :D Bathing is often seen as "bad" for dogs and indeed, for a dog with a healthy skin, it is absolutely not neccesary to bath often. But, for dogs with a skindisease, bathing is very, very useful :)

Another thought on the drinking/peeing... Dogs that have a broken skinbarrier, loose fluids much more easily through the skin and thus they need to drink more to stay sufficiently hydrated. Not tons and tons of water but still, one might notice a difference.

Well, enough for now :) Enjoy your weekend,

Sas :)

[labblab]

Sas, those are all excellent suggestions, so please feel free to chime in anytime! As it turns out, even more lesions blossomed overnight on Thursday, so I called the stand-in vet Friday morning and she and I both agreed to start Luna back on oral Simplicef, at least pending the culture/sensitivity results, since she had responded so well to it before. It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I think the spots are already quieting down after two doses. This does not help us in the long run, but it will be good if we can regain control in the short run. So your suggestions will definitely help with that, too.

Thank you!

[SasAndYunah]

Awwww poor Luna...and you :( Yes, it seems very wise to have started the Simplicef again for now...and I sure hope that it will help pretty soon to at least give her some relief for now, and you too :)

I'll be wishfull thinking with you... (oops, that's saying something different from what I meant to say, sorry :) ) Meant to say that I'll be hoping it's not just wishful thinking ;)

Sas :)

[Squirt's Mom]

My mind just went to Louise and Munchie who developed MRSA. Have they looked into that? It's a staph.

[labblab]

That's what we'll be finding out with the culture/sensitivity results -- exactly what it is. On a positive note, though, since it cleared up so rapidly on the Simplicef in May, it seems unlikely that it is an antibiotic-resistant bug like MRSA. That's what I'm hoping, anyway!

[Budsters Mom]

Well, any results yet???:confused:

[labblab]

Nope, not yet. They said it would take 7-10 days to get the full culture results. Today is Day 6, so hopefully by Friday. I can't say that the Simplicef and shampoo are having as positive an effect this time, since she has continued to sprout some new infected areas during this week. But she was much worse starting out this time, too. So we shall see. Gosh, I'd hate to have to shave her, but Sas's suggestion may turn out to be necessary. :o

[Budsters Mom]

Have you been putting anything on the oozing areas between baths?

This stuff works wonders. The VF (Verterinary Formula) Hydro Gel is a much more concentrated formula than the regular stuff. It says on the bottle that it's for a vet use only, don't believe it. You can order it online. I did.

When Rosie tore a paw pad, this stuff healed it up in two days. I bought it on-line from Entirely Pets. It arrived the next day. I washed it thoroughly with Hibiclens (per Glynda), then kept Vetericyn VF on it keeping it moist, several times a day.

Since it is a gel, it will gunk up around the hair. It heals better if you trim it.;)

http://www.entirelypets.com/vtrcynvfhydglspry16oz.html

[labblab]

Ahhh, it is very good timing that you've brought up Vetericyn because I was going to post something about a related formula change on "Everything Else" over the weekend. ;)

First, in relation to Luna, I've got antibiotic ointment and also a combined antibiotic/steroid spray on hand that is available to me to use. However, for a couple of years, I've always kept Vetericyn liquid spray in the house to cleanse wounds or irritated areas. I do not like the gel for exactly the reason you mentioned -- with their thick Lab double-coats, the gel really gunks things up even more (I'm not crazy about the antibiotic ointment for that same reason).

So in between baths, I had been using up the last of my Vetericyn liquid spray to try to break up the thick clumps of sticky crusty gunk on Luna's back. I was set to order more when I noticed that all the related products are now described as Vetericyn "Plus," and I wondered what had changed to account for that.

When I Googled it, I found this very thorough/complicated explanation on a message board for humans with spinal cord injuries (I had discovered quite a while back that Vetericyn has been used regularly for decontamination purposes by various human patient populations for things like cleaning catheters, etc.). Anyway, the long and the short of it is that the license has expired for Vetericyn's use of the specific patented cleansing agent. So from now on, all Vetericyn "Plus" products (including the gel), have a different formula from the originals. HOWEVER, the company that developed the process that produces the cleansing agent has now released product lines of their own, both for humans and animals. Their new product for animals that duplicates the original Vetericyn liquid is "Microcyn AH (Animal Health)," and I just ordered a big bottle from Amazon. They have also released a companion hydrogel.

For anybody who wants to read the very thorough discussion about the comparability of the the old Vetericyn, new Vetericyn Plus, and new Microcyn, here's a link to the spinal cord injury message board. The post about the animal health products is at the bottom of the thread, but the previous posts lay out the overall history and data re: the formula changes.

http://www.apparelyzed.com/forums/topic/32478-new-over-the-counter-wound-care-product-uses-microcyn-technology/

[labblab]

Just heard from the stand-in vet, and it is staph and is supposedly sensitive to many antibiotics including the Simplicef she's already taking. So I don't know why it is not clearing more thoroughly yet. Will stay on course for the weekend, though, and consult again with regular vet next week.

[SasAndYunah]

Just something you may want to talk about with your regular vet after the weekend... There is a condition that's called "staph hypersensitivity" (not sure if that is what it is called in English though but you will understand what I mean :) )

Whenever a dog has a staph infection that should be treatable and reacting to anti biotics, and the infection, after it had cleared first, returns very shortly there's a big chance the dog is sensitive to staph bacteria. This is not quite an allergie but a sensitivity, causing the dog the react to staph much more severely and much more easily. It can be treated with injections (just as with allergies) where you hope the dog 's immune system won't react so extreme to staph. And, as with the allergie shots, they have a high succes rate as well :)

Anyway, thought you may want to talk to your vet about this possibility.

(and about the shaving, you might consider just shaving or clipping the affected area's, not as dramatic as shaving the entire fur off but still will allow the affected area's to heal better)

Saskia :)

[Budsters Mom]

Hmmmm....Luna has been popping out with these goopy crusts since January. Is it possible that she has had a persistent staph infection all along that has never entirely been eradicated?


Sooo...Luna was in for her annual exam in January.

A week after she'd been in, a small clump of fur pulled out on her back leaving a nasty, red, goopy lesion. Called the vet back, I put some ointment on it for a couple of days, and the skin quickly healed.

the skin remained healed, but the fur never really grew back fully. Every time I see that little divot, I think "that is odd."

Today I found three new angry lesions erupting on her back.
So obviously there is some sort of chronic infection going on

[labblab]

Yes, I think it's possible, although never as severe as this last go-round. Otherwise, we would certainly have noticed the crusty scabs from the infection when we bathed her. Her fur is so thick that she might have had a couple of unnoticed spots between that first one in January and the April/May outbreak. But we would have been aware of anything as significant as these last two outbreaks.

Either way -- persistent or recurring -- there has to be something fueling her vulnerability. I'm really interested in this "staph hypersensitivity" that Sas has written about. I will definitely discuss that with our vet.

[SasAndYunah]

Okay, it's "next week" :D Just curious if you have been to your regular vet yet? And how Luna is doing...and you, of course? :)

Sas :)

[labblab]

Thanks for asking, Sas! I will be taking Luna in either tomorrow or Friday. I wanted to first give her a full two weeks on the Simplicef to see where it would it get us.

We definitely have better control than when we started out. Until I bathed her this morning, I thought that all the lesions were now dried out and just crusted over. Unfortunately, I again found one more newer area during her bath, so I guess some active infection is still smoldering. But at least things are much quieter than previously.

When I do take her in, one of the things I will ask about is a skin biopsy. From what I have now read about the hypersensitivity you mentioned, it looks as though a biopsy would help diagnose that condition as well as other possible issues.

Miss Luna thanks you for thinking about her, and I do too! ;)

[Budsters Mom]

Well, it's not worse. We can be very thankful for that! ;)

Still, it appears to be a pesky little bugger of staph that loves Luna and has no intention of leaving without a fight. :mad::eek:

Let us know how the vet goes and what the next step will be.

I hope Luna is feeling well otherwise and Nursemaid Peg is still able to carry out her supervisory duties.;) She is probably just thrilled that Luna is the one needing so many baths!:p

[SasAndYunah]

Glad to hear the infection has at least calmed down some...that's a start :) You'll probably look at a lengthy antibiotic course this time. And a skinbiopsy, and possibly allergietesting, will definately be in place here. There must be some underlying, most likely immune-system, cause.

I am really, really curious as what may be the outcome of this eventually..as I am sure you are too :) Good luck with the vetvisit, today or tomorrow :)

Sas :)

[labblab]

Right now, I think I'm actually hoping for it to be the staph hypersensitvity because apparently that can be diagnosed just from a biopsy and the treatment seems to be pretty straightforward and successful (a series of injections of small amounts of staph with the goal of reprogramming the immune system)? But apparently that disorder is pretty rare.

I'm more downhearted about the prospect of allergy testing or trying to diagnose a more illusive immune system disorder :o. We do not have insurance for either of the girls, and I'm told that allergy testing here is very, very expensive. And since everything else appears to be normal right now for Luna (labwork, behavior), it's hard to know what direction in which to look in terms of other disorders. But that's why we have the vets here to guide us, after all!

I will be taking her in either later this afternoon or first thing tomorrow. I will definitely report back after I get a report.

[molly muffin]

Hopefully you can find out enough by just a skin biopsy to not need to do other things. If it's a staph, then it could just be a very resistant one. Staphs in humans can be tricky to get rid of entirely, so makes sense it might be the same for dog. The least little thing can bring it back out.

Let us know what the vet says.

big hugs to you and belly rubs to Luna and Peg

[labblab]

We are back, and overall I feel better about things :). We have a short-term gameplan, so that's good. First off, even though he did not see her two weeks ago, he said it's evident that the treatment is improving things even though she is still sprouting some new spots. Like you say, Sharlene, skin infections can just get very entrenched and take persistent treatment to eradicate. He wants us to give the antibiotics and baths a full month before moving onward, with one exception. And that is to change her food to a novel protein, limited ingredient formula. I was pretty much expecting that and probably should have tried it earlier, but she's just always done so well on her current food that I hated to switch. Food sensitivity may not play any role in this at all, but that's an easy thing for us to alter.

If the infection recurs or persists beyond the month, he will certainly consider a biopsy. He said it will involve sedating her and taking six "punch" samples from areas with lesions. Each punch will take a couple of stitches to sew up. But even before doing that, we may want to consider trying the treatment for staph hypersensitivity. He is well familiar with it, and printed out the technical professional blurb given to the vets there by the immunotherapeutics lab that supplies them with the antigen. They (the lab) don't necessarily even recommend a biopsy beforehand. They say the treatment can be tried on any dog with recurrent idiopathic staph that "ought" to be responsive to antibiotics. Either it will work or it won't. But there's a specific protocol that has to be followed re: concurrent antibiotic treatment and we do not fit that right now. And really, you have to first establish that antibiotics alone will not resolve the infection. Since Luna is showing improvement right now, we need to just try a longer course first.

He also made me feel better by telling me that staph skin infections are really common in dogs, and Luna's case really is not all that bad in comparison to many he has seen. This is not to minimize the fact that we need to treat it seriously, but he really thought she looked pretty good today. So I feel better, and she is glad to be home again although she wasn't quite the scaredy-cat today that she sometimes is :o.

And Kathy, I actually think Peg may wish she was getting all the baths ("dog massages") that Luna is getting. But for sure, Peg is glad that Luna is the one being hauled in to the vet!!! ;) ;)

[SasAndYunah]

Happy you are feeling better about things :) And eventhough Luna is not atopic, with the staph infections these past couple of months, there's no way her skinbarrier is in good shape at this moment. In atopic dogs, the focus has shifted very much to repairing the skinbarrier. Here's a link to an artice that explains the skinbarrier, what it means when it is not functioning properly and what you can do to help repair it. There are spot-on's, sprays and shampoos especially to help repair the skinbarrier. And of course, you need to bath Luna with her medicated shampoo (at least for now) but you can for example use a moisterizing product that will help the skinbarrier after her medicated bath.

I use 2 different spot-on's with Quincy (they both adress another part of the skinbarrier), the Allerderm Spot-On and the Dermoscent Essential 6, both mentioned in the article. And I use the Douxo shampoo and spray, also mentioned in the article :)

Well, just read the article, I am sure you will find it very informational and give you perhaps some good ideas to support Luna and her skin :)

http://www.avsg.net/files/5514/0511/6674/AtopypyodermaandtheskinRustyMuseDVMACVD.pdf

Have a nice evening,

Sas :)

[SasAndYunah]

Almost 2 weeks since your last update on Luna...curious if the continued antibiotic and medicated baths are improving her skin/staph infection :)

Sas :)

[Budsters Mom]

I was thinking the same thing.:confused:

[labblab]

Awww girls, thanks so much for asking. Luna will be finished with 30 days of the Simplicef on Friday. Right now, we are still bathing her twice weekly and as of this week she is fully transitioned to the limited ingredient food. Overall, her symptoms have definitely subsided. I did find yet one more fresh lesion over the weekend, but I did not find any when we bathed her today. I am supposed to report to our vet by the end of the week, and we'll decide where to go from here.

My own thought is that there will probably be value in continuing with the antibiotic for a bit longer. It seems as though we may be on the cusp of turning the tide and I do not want to lose ground again now.

That article was definitely interesting, Sas. We are giving Luna oral omega 3,6,9 supplementation, but I will ask about adding a topical spray or spot-on product. I see Duoxo has several different shampoos and sprays -- what are you using on Quince?

Marianne

[SasAndYunah]

Good to hear that Luna's symptoms are subsiding :) I agree with your idea of prolongueing the antibiotics (and bathing) since it could take even 8 weeks of treatment and it would be a shame if you stopped now :)

For Quincy I use the Douxo Seborrhea shampoo and conditioner, since she has Seborrhea so that makes sense, right? :p But they also have anti bacterial shampoos and conditioner. But since you are already using a medicated shampoo, I would stay with that. I think I would go for a good spot-on to support the skin (function and barrier) and don't use a shampoo at this time. You can start with a shampoo/conditioner when the current infection has cleared and the medicated baths are no longer needed. Then you could start using a supporting shampoo and conditioner to help Luna's skin in maintaining the best possible condition which will increase her natural abbility to fight off skin infections :)

Let us know what your vet thinks and what he suggests...

Sas :)

[labblab]

Yes, I think your advice makes sense, Sas. ;)

Here's another question for you, though. I am looking into both the Allerderm and Dermoscent spot-ons, and see that the Dermoscent Essential 6 contains essential oils. I know that Leslie has been cautioning folks about using essential oils with dogs because of possible toxicity issues. Maybe she'll have a chance to comment on this specific product, but I was just wondering whether you have any general concerns yourself about the essential oils contained in the Dermoscent.

The Allerderm seems to be a lipid complex and I do see a couple of positive research studies relating to its use, so I'm thinking I might be more inclined to start first with it?

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

I looked that product up when Sas first mentioned it and started to caution you both but changed my mind since I figured you had already seen the links I have posted about EOs. I couldn't use this product myself because of all the EOs in it. The biggest concern are those EOs that are made from citrus plants and contain the constituent d-limoene. However, all EOs are the most toxic part of the plant. I use EOs but very, very sparingly as a preservative in my herbal salves. The salves are never used on animals. The only time I use EOs with my dogs is on their very last day in a Spiritual manner, never as a treatment. I can't use Colloidal Silver either. ;)

[SasAndYunah]

I agree that EO's can be harmfull if not used correctly. There are people buying, let's say, a bottle of teatreeoil and will put some drops of it directly on a dog's or cat's skin, for example. That is a big no-no...of course :) It's too concentrated to use it in that manner and there might possibly be other contra indications. (I am by no means an expert on the subject)

But the way the EO's are used in the spot-on's or other topical treatments, prescribed by my veterinary dermatologist specialist, in my personal opinion, is safe. I do know, that they help Quincy enormously. Till this day, her kidney- and liverlevels are perfect so they haven't caused any changes there yet.

I went back to look at the links you have provided and even there it is mentioned that "For dogs, essential oils can be used in a variety of ways, from bathing to calming the nerves through diffusion.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/022909_pet_health_essential_oils.html#ixzz3i2ZjXOP z

Anyway, we all have our own believes and reasons why we do, or don't do certain things and that's the way it should be, right? :) We are all our own persons and do the best we can to take care of those we love...

I do have a factsheet of what ingredient does what in canine shampoo's and such, just don't know how to post it here :confused:

Sas :)

[Squirt's Mom]

:D Many feel EOs are safe; I do not. Nor do I consider Natural News a reliable source of info. ;) But neither am I an expert. Lots of folks I know use them and say they are beneficial. All I can do is share what little I know and let everyone make their own decisions concerning what they feel comfortable using on their babies. I have made my decision and will not use them on mine. :)

[labblab]

Ladies, thanks to you both for your thoughts and comments. I'll keep on doing a bit of researching on my own, too. For the moment, the Allerderm spot-on sounds most appealing to me, anyway, and I probably want to stick to only one new add-on at a time so as to better judge any adverse affects. The vet may not want me to add anything at all quite yet, since we're not yet very far removed from active infectious lesions cropping up. We may just stick with the oral antibiotic/Omegas and bathing for a couple more weeks, in addition to the new food. I'm fixing to put a call in later today.

[Budsters Mom]

Just a thought you were probably already considered....

You have been going through a drastic food change with Luna due to possible allergic components. Adding anything else new at this point, even topical preparations can make it very difficult to pinpoint a possible allergen and it's hard anyway. Please discuss anything topical with your vet before adding it to the mix.

[labblab]

Yes, good point, Kathy. I totally agree that it's best not to change more than one thing at once.

OK, talked with the vet and we are both on the same page. He thinks it's a good idea to extend the Simplicef for two more weeks. We will continue with the medicated shampoo, although we can stretch the bathing to once a week rather than twice-weekly if we we want.

He is actually very familiar with Allerderm, Sas, and says that they were stocking it their at the clinic for a period of time. Research does support its use. However, their own impression was that they were not seeing observable improvement in the patients who were using it, so they stopped routinely recommending it. However, he is absolutely fine with me giving it to Luna if I would like to do so. Since it has only been a few days since we saw a new active lesion, we think it will be better to hold off on adding any topical for a little while longer. But if Luna remains lesion-free for the next couple of weeks, then I very well may add the Allerderm at the time we discontinue the antibiotic.

So that's where we are. He agreed I can add in a probiotic over the weekend to help offset the lengthy antibiotic course. I wanted to do that earlier, but not in the midst of the food change. She seems to have adjusted to the new food with no problem, though, so I feel better about now adding the probiotic, too.

[SasAndYunah]

So nice when you and your vet are on the same page, makes sometimes difficult situations less stressful :) Will be curious to see if the additional 2 weeks of Simplicef will be helpful, I soooo hope it will :)

With things like Allerderm spot-on, it is not curing anything, we know that. It cannot replace anti biotics, Prednison, Cyclosporine or whatever else is needed, it's merely supportive. I take Quincy to a specalised dermatology clinic, the department of allergies. (within the clinic they have seperate departments that specialise in different skinconditions) It's from my dermatoligist that I have learned that the focus has shifted a lot more to the skin...in allergies. But also, that it takes a dilligent owner, keeping up with a strict regime applying spot-ons, to do the bathing according to the schedule, to go the extra mile by washing the dogs feet everytime after a walk, to even vacuum the fur after walks (to get rid of the allergens), to wash everything at 60 degrees C and stuff that can't be washed that hot, needs to go, to watch the skin like a hawk and start applying betadine as soon as you notice a spot, no matter how tiny... etc. I am used to doing all these things by now, have established a routine by now and of course, Quincy isn't that big and that makes it a lot easier :D What I mean to say is, it is never one thing ( for example a spot-on) but a whole range of different things :) And the succes of the treatment is in the hands of the owner and how well he/she keeps up with everything :) So adding "only" a spot-on, could more then likely not give a significant improvement...it's everything combined and all these measures need each other in order to have the best result possible. It's the spot-on, the essential fatty acids (by the way, I use the Allerderm for that as well), the baths, the keeping the environment "clean" (as less provoking allergens as possible), etc. So I would even go as far as saying that "routinely" prescribing a spot-on (and nothing else) and expecting it to cause improvements would be nonsense indeed :D

Anyway, keep up the good work with Luna and we will be keeping our fingers crossed that in two more weeks, she will even be better and hopefully she will be cured :)

Sas :)

[Budsters Mom]

It's been another week so it's time to update us on the girls. Do not forget to add Nurse Peg into the mix.;)

Luna should still be on another week of Simplicef. Did you go ahead and start the probiotic to help replace some of the good bacteria lost? Has her skin settled down? Have you noticed any new lesions? How is she doing with her change in diet? What novel protein did you change her to? Did you change Peg's diet also, or leave her be because of her weakness for pancreatitis flareups?

Now for Peg....How is her mobility? Did the cyst on her paw finally heal? Generally how is she doing otherwise? I realize I should be asking on Peg's thread, but I'm too lazy to go there, so I'm doing it together. I'm bad!:D

So many questions.:confused:

That should be enough to keep you busy for now.;)

[labblab]

Thanks so much for checking in on us again, Kathy! I will add a genuine update later on in the week, but you are right -- we are completing the final week of Simplicef. Everything is stable with both girls right now, and as I say, I'll write more in a couple of days when I have a better idea as to where we go next in terms of treatment/monitoring.

And thanks for your additional thoughts, Sas -- I'll comment on them, as well. ;)

[labblab]

OK, I’m finally back with the overdue update! First, a quick note re: Peg – she is definitely continuing to slow down and is overdue for her monitoring bloodwork. She’s been really hobbling again lately after slipping and falling on the kitchen floor when she rushed to greet her dad Monday evening, so I’ve given her a couple days worth of Previcox. But I hope she'll soon straighten out again and on most mornings, she is still eager for our leisurely short stroll through the neighborhood and the opportunity to meet and greet her friends along the way. Overall, I think life is still mostly good for her, even though ever so much more sedate. I’ll add a better update to her own thread after I get her in for her labwork within the next couple of weeks

Turning to Luna, I’m relieved to report that it’s now been around a month since her last active lesion. Sas, thanks so much for the info re: the Douxo shampoos and also the Allerderm. I am now using the Duoxo chlorhexidine shampoo for Luna, and their seborrhea shampoo for Peg. These really seem to be quality products with uniformly good reviews, so I understand why the brand was recommended to you and I am grateful for the info you’ve passed on. I also have a bottle of their chlorhexidine spray to use in between Luna’s weekly shampoos or if a suspicious spot pops up.

I managed to order in a box of Allerderm pipettes that were made in France. I have discovered there's an issue here with the FDA: they are now declaring one of the ingredients a “drug,” so to be legally made/sold in the U.S., the product would have to go through the whole FDA approval process. So it is taking a bit of creative energy, but I was able to get my first box imported for Luna and hope that I can still get more in the future. I totally understand that the Allerderm is just one piece of the overall treatment, but it looks to be a good and useful product so I want to give it a try. I am applying it weekly now, after Luna’s coat has dried from her bath.

She seems to be tolerating her new food with no problem (palatability is NEVER an issue with the girls, but she also seems to be fine GI-wise). So I am crossing my fingers that we will be able to keep this skin condition under control using the diet change, oral omega capsules, and the topical products. Also, my 20-year-old vacuum cleaner just broke, so I’ve had to buy a new one that is a lot more efficient, so that’s probably also a good thing for us all! ;) :)

.

[SasAndYunah]

Will keep an eye on Peg's thread in the time to come but I can picture her strolling down the street, meeting and greeting her friends :) Hope she will be strolling and meeting and greeting for a long time to come...it's an important task in life, after all :)

Regarding Luna....Yippie!! That's good news, no new lesions for the past month or so, I am really happy to read this :D I sure hope you will notice a difference in their skin/fur with the help of the topical products and shampoos and such... And you won't believe this but my vacuum cleaner too broke down, just after I had the "atopy"diagnosis, so I too bought a new one that was more equipt to deal with allergens and such... I was rather glad it decided to break down at that time and not 2 months sooner, I would have most likely not bought the best option for an atopic dog/person... :p

Welcome to the bathing, spraying, applying, washing and vacuuming club :D It tends to be a bit of work, but if I look at Quincy, it's soooo well worth it :)

Glad the change in food is not causing any GI issues...and that Luna is eating it without a problem.

Wishing you and yours a nice, uneventfull weekend,

Sas :)

[labblab]

Found a new lesion this morning. I saw Nurse Peg sniffing Luna's back last night and it worried me. Just like before, reappeared about one month after stopping the oral antibiotic. She had a medicated bath just two days ago. :( :( :(

Maybe it's time to try the staph "innoculation" injections since it is antibiotic-sensitive but keeps recurring.

I am feeling downhearted.

[mytil]

Oh poor Luna. I am so very sorry this is continuing to happen.
T.

[Squirt's Mom]

:(:( I'm so sorry for you both. It does seem a different approach is needed since this keeps coming back. Let us know how she's is and what you and vet decide to do.

((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))

[judymaggie]

So frustrating when things seem to be under control and, bam, you are back to square one! Please give Luna a gentle hug from Abbie & I.

[molly muffin]

dang it. :( Have you asked the vet why it would come back so soon after stopping antibiotics. It's like it knocks it back just enough but not all the way out of her system, so as soon as the antibiotic isn't there to hold it back, it comes back fully.

Would a different antibiotic work better perhaps?

[Budsters Mom]

Well it sure was a good thing that Nurse Peg was on duty, but this wasn't the news that any of us wanted to hear.:o

I am so sorry Marianne. :o I totally agree with you. I do believe it's time to move on to something else, possibly the injections. You don't want Luna to stop responding to the antibiotics altogether and the lesions to run amok. What a mess! I wish I had some words of wisdom and answers for you. Since I don't, I'll send you many hugs and tons of healing energy for both our girls.

Tell Nurse Peg to keep up the good work!:D

[labblab]

Yeah, I think the the condition of Luna's skin or her immune system is the problem rather than the antibiotic not working. Each time, the Simplicef has done what it is supposed to as far as clearing the infection, and this last time we continued the med for two full weeks after seeing the last active lesion. But Luna can't permanently stay on antibiotics, and there is always going to be staph naturally returning to her skin. But how to keep it from over-colonizing....?

I treated the spot with topicals yesterday and gave her another full bath today. I realize I was being unrealistic in hoping we'd never see another spot :o. Obviously there is something abnormal at the root of this, and unless we can figure that out we will just be trying to minimize the outbreaks. So I guess we will see over the next week or so whether at least we can keep a lid on things by using the topicals or instead whether the infection really breaks through in multiple areas again. If it does, I think I will press for trying the innoculation injections, although I think the protocol for that requires another six weeks of antibiotics in conjunction <SIGH>

One good thing is that Luna does not seem to mind her baths. I guess it feels like a nice warm puppy massage to her. So I am trying to make them be nice, happy times for the two of us to share together. The shampoo has to stay on for ten minutes, so I tell her what a good girl she is and sing little songs to her. She really IS such a good girl to put up with all of this. :)

[Budsters Mom]

AWWWWW!!!! Thanks for such a sweet visual! :p


The shampoo has to stay on for ten minutes, so I tell her what a good girl she is and sing little songs to her.

[addy]

Sorry to read about Luna, Marianne. I, like Kathy, do like the visual of bath time. I used to have hubby feed Zoe chicken, a tiny piece every minute. Well, you knew Zoe, anything for chicken:rolleyes:

I hope a clear path forward is figured out, though I know you will have alternatives figured out.

Big hugs to you and Luna and Peg.

[SasAndYunah]

I think it's time to start looking for a primary cause because it certainly looks like there is a primary cause and without treating the primary cause you will keep stuck with these returning infections. The fact they keep returning is pretty much "proof" there is another underlying cause...and it needs to be adressed will you ever solve this problem. Seems like a visit to a dermatologist is in order... :) But I do understand how disheartening this must be...

Saskia :)

[labblab]

Sas, I do agree there must be a primary cause, but I'm fearful it may be illusive. All of Luna's labwork is normal, and her behavior is all totally normal (appetite, energy, GI function, etc.). I think there are still two more avenues that we could pursue with our regular vet: the staph innoculations and/or skin biopsy. If neither of those are productive or informative, then we really have no choice but to move on to a dermatologist should the infection continue to blossom.

I may be wrong, but if no other abnormalities are identified, I'm guessing that general allergy testing would be the main contribution of a dermatologist. That will be very, very expensive here and I confess to a degree of pessimism re: the outcome based on the experiences of friends' pets and also human family members. It seems as though you are having success with Quincy's desensitization? And obviously that is what we would hope for, too, if that is Luna's problem. But I know folks who have spent small fortunes on allergy testing/treatment and not much added success to show for it. So rightly or wrongly, I'm viewing that as kind of a last resort.

Although apparently it's rare, Luna does perfectly fit the profile of a dog who is hypersensitive to staph itself. So I still believe I'd want to try those innoculations before moving onward with other allergy testing. And since our vet is also willing and capable of doing a biopsy, the pathology report would be the same regardless of who is submitting the samples. So that is my line of thinking at the moment, to explore those first. But if things worsen again rapidly and we can find no other answers, we will have to move on to a specialist.

But please know that I always appreciate your thoughts and suggestions so very much, even though I may not always act upon them (at least not immediately :rolleyes:). I truly value your knowledge, experience, and caring. I thank you, and everybody else who has taken the time to read through Luna's thread to offer their thoughts to me. I appreciate you all so very much.

[SasAndYunah]

I fully understand, Marianne :) It just that I am not used to general vets doing "dermatologists" things :D Here I would need to go to a dermatologist for a skin biopsy and/or the innoculations. But if your general vet can do them....of course, that's easier (and cheaper) :D

I think it's Linda (spiceysmom) who told me her Spicey too did wonderfully with the monthly injections... :) About 75 till 80 % of all dogs will improve with the injections...so yes, for some dogs it's not the solution unfortunately.

And yes, the allergy testing is expensive and so are the bottles with the injectionfluids...but if it works, it's cheaper than having to pay for all the visits to the vet, the testing, the anti biotics, the prednisone and anything else they might need for the constant infections (ears, eyes, skin, paws...etc).

Let's just hope that Luna is hypersensitive to staph and nothing else and that she will respond great to the injections :)

Sas :)

[labblab]

That's actually one thing that makes me suspect staph hypersensitivity as opposed to other allergies: Luna has never exhibited any other allergy issues whatsoever. No itching, scratching, paw licking, eye/ear infections at all. Peg is the poster child for all those types of problems, so I definitely know what that looks like :o. But aside from an occasional dirty ear, we've never had any visible allergic issues with Luna. She doesn't even itch or scratch the lesions now. So that's a big reason why it's hard for me to want to launch into a bunch of allergy testing unless there's really nothing else to be checked.

[Budsters Mom]

Hmmmm..... It's hard for me to think that Luna's problem is an allergy when she doesn't exhibit any allergy symptoms.:confused:

I am super glad that she's feeling OK and am anxious to see how all of this unfolds. I am not too concerned because nothing slips by Nurse Peg.;)

Hang in there Marianne. You'll get it figured out.

[SasAndYunah]

How are things with Luna? :) Could you keep the infection contained to that one lesion or did it (I hope not of course) turn into multiple lesions...?

Sas :)

[labblab]

It's been a little over a week now since the single lesion popped up, and it is now healed and I've not found any more. Fortunately, Nurse Peg has shown no new interest in Luna's back. :)

Overall, Luna's skin generally looks much better. I thank you so much for the Douxo and Allerderm recommendations. I really think the Douxo shampoo is superior to what I was using previously and I am going to recommend it to my vet.

Since things have not gotten any worse this week, I am holding off on taking any new steps. We will be taking Peg in for labwork in two weeks, and I can discuss Luna with him then, too. If we can hold Luna to nothing more than an intermittent spot or two, I'll actually be pretty happy because apparently even with successful staph desensitization, occasional lapses can still be expected.

[SasAndYunah]

Ohhhhh I am truly happy to hear this :) And with time, the Douxo and Allerderm will even have more effect...so Luna will improve even more :)

I did think of something else...you could ask your vet. Maybe it's an option to, if need be, to treat a new lesion with a Betadine solution? That also may help to contain/heal it.... just a thought. It's not aggressive but it is antiseptic :)

And yes, when I look at Quincy, the hyposensibilisation therapy works really well and it saves Quincy a lot of new occuring infections but she still has them, eventhough they are pretty rare now, but they are not completely gone. But I too am very happy with the current situation...I know how bad it was so this is a huge improvement :) I can imagine you feel the same way about Luna :)

It's nice to read such a positive update just before I go to sleep... :D

Sweet dreams in advance,

Saskia :)

[Renee]

I know I have yet to pop in on this thread, but I have been keeping along.

My personal opinion would be to go the biopsy route - this was how we diagnosed CC. And, my general vet did the biopsy. What she did do though, was to call the local derm vet (only one in town; Alaska!), and get advice on which specific lab to send the samples to, so as to get the right people looking at the sample. Not all labs are created equal, and the lab a derm vet uses may be different from what a GP vet would use for regular stuff.

Just my two cents!

[labblab]

Renee, that's a great suggestion if we do end up with a biopsy. Today is bath day so we'll really have a chance to check Luna again, but so far this week I've still not seen any evidence of new spots. If we can continue to stay on top of things, then maybe we have turned the tide on our own.

Sas, I am now using the Douxo chlorhexidine spray to treat any suspicious areas. I was able it to use on the new spot two weeks ago, and the area was vastly improved in just a couple of days. Like the shampoo, the spray has a skin strengthener as well as the chlorhexidine. I've been poring over the literature re: which antiseptic is best against surface skin bacteria, and chlorhexidine seems to win compared to everything else, including betadine. Apparently chlorhexidine has a significantly better initial kill rate and also may have residual activity. So you may want to try a bottle of the Douxo spray, too. I swear, those products seem great!

[SasAndYunah]

Yes, I know the Douxo line is great :) I didn't realise you have the Douxo spray as well.... I thought you had the Douxo shampoo and the Allerderm spot-on :)

And that's precisely it...staying on top of things through numerous meassures and you seem to be doing a more than great job with Luna...congrats, I know it's not always easy :) I have learned the hard way, trust me ;) At times I was so tired and figured, I postpone her bath till tomorrow, what difference will one day make..? Boy, did I learn what the difference was :p

Have a nice bath-day :D

Sas :)

[labblab]

Well, spoke too soon cuz I just found a small new spot. It is really tiny, though, and overall the rest of her skin looks really good. So for now, I think we'll just keep plugging along. We can certainly live with this pattern so long as it doesn't really worsen. So we'll see as time goes on.

[Budsters Mom]

Oh Marianne, you are much more patient then I would be at this point. I would be demanding to know what that crap is, so I could erase it from the face of the earth! OK, a little too much drama there.:D I realize that it doesn't seem to be bothering Luna, which is a blessing, but it would be driving me crazy!:eek::eek: I wouldn't be able to leave her alone, as I would be hovering and checking her all the time. She would be running for cover, I'm sure.:o

If my calculations are correct, these lesions have been appearing since January, about nine months now. They clear up with rounds of antibiotics, only to return a few weeks after going off of them. Although bathtime and lovely songs sound soothing, they haven't managed to eradicate the problem. Sooooo, what's next???

Please keep us posted. Sending big hugs to you and healing energy to Lovely Luna and Nurse Peg.

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm with Kathy - I would be screaming for THE answer and THE solution. Patience is not one of my very few virtues. ;) I hate these spots keep coming back and I know the bathing and other work with her is tiring. You are a great mom and Luna is so lucky.

Hugs and belly rubs! (ya'll can decide who gets what. :D )

[labblab]

Hey Kathy, we do know exactly what the crap is -- it's overcolonization of antibiotic-sensitive staph. There is nothing especially sinister or exotic about the infection itself. The problem is with Luna's skin or immune system. There is nothing at all abnormal about her general appearance, behavior or labwork, which tends to rule out immune system issues caused by things like low thyroid, Cushing's, lupus, pemphigus, cancer, etc. So that leaves us with the most likely causation being allergies of some sort, either a hypersensitivity to staph itself or allergic reaction to something altogether different.

I believe the next step would be a skin biopsy. Obviously a biopsy would help identify any pathological changes to the skin tissue itself that is leaving it vulnerable. Apparently a hypersensitivity to staph also produces observable changes on biopsy. So why am I dragging my heels?

Overall, Luna's skin is looking much improved since starting this new regimen, and the active infection has lessened. If she does have staph hypersensitivity (or any other allergy for that matter) and we were to go through with all the testing and injection protocol, the end result might be no different than what we are looking at now. This level of control would actually be deemed treatment success in terms of staph hypersensitivity.

The vet says that if we biopsy in this situation (no specific growth or tumor), they would want to take samples from multiple sites including areas of historic active infection. She will have to be sedated, of course, and she will be left with multiple little incisions that have to heal. Of course this is not a huge deal, but I am not wanting to put her through this unless her condition worsens again. So that is why I am willing to be patient right now and watching what develops.

Probably part of my patience stems from a 40-year history of dealing with flaring/remitting skin issues with hubby and his mom :o. He inherited from her a genetic skin defect that results in periodic breakdowns of nasty, miserably uncomfortable lesions. It is rare so there will never be any research done and there is no known cure. All we can do is try to control the lesions with standard topicals. I have sat through so many fruitless dermatology appointments/biopsies/consultations that I could never count them all now. So rightly or wrongly, of course there is a tendency for me to project this same experience onto Luna. And I am such a pro at checking out skin and slapping on ointment that it is just second nature to me now. But truly, if her situation worsens again, I won't ignore things and we'll press onward.

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh I don't think any of us think you are dragging you heels or any such thing. :eek: No not at all! We just want this cured so you both have relief, physical, mental, and emotional. And just because we are used to something doesn't mean it should continue to visit us...tho that sure seems to be the way it goes, huh? Almost as if the Universe looks and says, "Oh that gal there knows all about this so let's give her another." :rolleyes: We know you are doing all you can for your sweet girl - we just want her well so you don't have to do all that. ;)

[labblab]

Well, you guys are being very kind because if I was reading this thread, I'd be thinking "Why doesn't the girl just get a d**n biopsy done already -- I'm tired of hearing about it!!" :rolleyes: ;) :D

[Budsters Mom]

Yep, that's how I got Rosie. Two allergy dogs in a row!!! ;):o

As Leslie said, we don't think you're dragging your heels. It's disheartening to see them continue to reoccur when you have been working so hard to eradicate the problem. If the lesions are caused by an allergy, (OMG!!! :eek::eek: - Welcome to my world), you may never figure it out.:o

On the upside, It only one little spot. No big deal. You're on top of it, the lesions aren't bothering Luna and bathtime comes with a serenade.:D

Hang in there Marianne.
Hugs,


And just because we are used to something doesn't mean it should continue to visit us...tho that sure seems to be the way it goes, huh? Almost as if the Universe looks and says, "Oh that gal there knows all about this so let's give her another." :rolleyes:

[Budsters Mom]

Not tired of hearing about this. NEVER!!

However, I will admit to thinking that a biopsy is overdue. Thanks for explaining why you are waiting to have it done.;)


Well, you guys are being very kind because if I was reading this thread, I'd be thinking "Why doesn't the girl just get a d**n biopsy done already -- I'm tired of hearing about it!!" :rolleyes: ;) :D

[SasAndYunah]

It has been over a month now....so time to let us know how that lovely Luna is doing :D I hope things are calm and uneventful,

Sas :)