Cushing's & early spaying relation???

[becky]

I've been reading online about the role of early spaying & the role it plays in cushing's disease. Since you all have first hand knowledge of cushing's; can you tell me if you believe this to be true or not? I am by no means a doctor but in reading about it, it sure makes a lot of sense. I'm very curious about all of your views & experiences about this. Thanks in advance.

[labblab]

Hi Becky,

Can you give us some links to the material you are finding? I, myself, have never heard of any association between spaying and Cushing's, at least conventional Cushing's. Cushing's is caused by overproduction of cortisol due to either a pituitary or adrenal tumor, and I don't know why either of those types of tumors would have any relationship to early spaying (or spaying, period). There may be other types of hormonal disorders that can be associated with spaying, however, and I believe there are some folks who theorize that there may somehow be a connection with some cases of "Atypical Cushing's" (elevations in adrenal hormones other than cortisol). However, I don't think these theories have been supported by actual scientific research. So if you can give us more info about your sources, maybe we can help sort out what you are reading.

Marianne

[becky]

There are several websites. Just do a google search for 'early spaying and cushing's'. The controversy is just regarding spaying before they reach maturity, not spaying in general.

[Squirt's Mom]

Since not all sites are trustworthy nor scientific in the info they present, it would help us to know where you are reading this. Many sites pulled up with google but few I would trust personally. ;)

[labblab]

I have not seen any websites linking spaying with conventional Cushing's, so if you are aware of some, you will have to point them out to me so we can talk about tham. As for linking early spaying with "Atypical Cushing's," I am only finding references to some general theories or opinions advanced by a few folks, but they lack description of any actual causative mechanism that is involved. Indeed, the references I have found acknowledge that the idea is not supported by many vets and lacks validated research. In reality, "Atypical Cushing's" itself is still questioned as being a genuine syndrome, let alone what the potential causes may be. Here's a link to an interesting paper authored by Dr. Ellen Behrend of Auburn University that discusses in detail the evidence for and against such a syndrome:

http://www.2ndchance.info/cushingsbehrend2010.pdf

So bottom line, I don't think anybody has yet provided validated evidence of a linkage between early spaying and abnormalities that have been labelled as "Atypical Cushing's." The websites I have seen are only offering out personal opinions that have not been substantiated at this time. If the link was an obviously supportable one, I would expect to see more genuine research evidence.

Marianne

[Budsters Mom]

To think that Cushing's of any sort could be linked to early spaying is a terrifying thought. :eek::eek::eek: After spending time on the Cushing's road to hell, I certainly don't want to do it again anytime soon. Rosie was spayed at four months when she had to be put under anesthesia anyway to have her ears cleaned out. I would hate to think that I put her at risk. :o:o

[flynnandian]

i never spay nor neuter my dogs and i do have [had] 3 cushing dogs, so...............i don't know if this is true.
spaying/neutering as a pup/young dog causing all kind of problems is true and proven.

[doxiesrock912]

I have heard that spaying when they're young can lead to hormone imbalances later in life and that now it is recommended to not spay before they experience a few heat cycles. Nothing specific to Cushings, but you never know.

[Squirt's Mom]

When you stand in a shelter and see all those dogs whose lives hang in the balance and you know that most of them are going to be euthanized....and you realize that 1000's of dogs are killed each and every day in shelters in the US one thought will eventually come to mind and stick forever. SPAY AND NEUTER your dogs and cats unless there is a known medical reason specific to that pup/cat that would prevent it. To leave a pet intact for no sound medical reason creates the possibility of that pet having babies, adding to the over-population problem that already exists....and increases the risk that one of your pup's babies will end up euthanized after a few weeks spent in a cold, lonely cage.

As Bob Barker says, "Please, spay and neuter your pets." ;) You WILL save lives by doing so.

[lulusmom]

I know that there has been a few papers published on the possible connection of early spay and cushing's in ferrets but they are very different animals. Dr. Behrend's informative paper mentioned earlier by Marianne is the only credible reference that touches on the subject. If you Google "early spay cushing's" you get lots of hits for Dr. Karen Becker. While I respect her for the public service she does in educating pet owners on a great many subjects, I can tell you that endocrinology is not her strong suit. She has made more than a few misstatements about cushing's in her videos. I posted a comment on one of her videos, correcting her error but apparently she is very selective as to which comments she responds. The most egregious mistake she made was describing symptoms that are typical of a dog with an adrenal tumor, as a dog simply being in early stages of the disease. Dogs with adrenal tumors often have high sex (intermediate hormones) but normal cortisol. These dogs have atypical cushing's until an ultrasound confirms an adrenal tumor and the first line of treatment is surgery. I can guarantee you that her alternative remedies would have zero effect on an adrenal tumor and a negative effect on your wallet.

I do believe that early spay/neuter can cause a multitude of health issues down the road but unaltered dogs carry a greater risk of other health issues. I've got a little piebald dachshund at my feet who was a puppy mill bitch and sadly, she's probably never going to leave my home. She has huge mammary tumors, which will require extensive and very painful surgery. There's a greater than 50% chance that they have metastasized. If so, she'll remain with me in hospice care. Spaying a female before their first heat can pretty much eliminate the risk of mammary tumors. Spaying can also eliminate the risk of pyometra. I've rescued dogs with pyometra and it is fatal if not treated promptly.

I am a rescuer who advocates for spay and neutering of our pets because there are too many stupid people in this world. The shelters are full of companion animals who die every day because they were unfortunate enough to be owned by stupid, irresponsible, and/or immoral owners who feel dogs are disposable. I am not one who thinks it's admirable to save tiny puppies from shelters but then show zero concern for their future welfare by having them spayed and neutered immediately so they can be adopted asap. I am also at odds with rescues who think spaying and neutering senior dogs is a priority above all else. It is not!

[becky]

I would never be an advocate to NOT spay or neuter your pets. I agree that many people are irresponsible & this adds to overpopulated shelters & unnecessary euthanized animals. I also realize that many things posted online are not always true & that is exactly why I was posting the question on this board as you are all dealing with this disease first hand.

My question relates to EARLY spaying & neutering only. My vet recommends it & he spayed my Maltese at 12 weeks & I lost her to Cushing’s a few months ago. If there is anything I can do that may even possibly prevent that from happening again, I am going to do it. It makes sense to me to wait until they have matured more & I’m mad at myself now for having it done so early. My vet is also the one who does all the spaying & neutering for the local animal shelter so I see why he is an advocate for early spaying.

Many thanks to all of you for your thoughts & ideas regarding the matter.

[Budsters Mom]

Rosie was in a litter of just such pups. She is a result of a irresponsible pet owners. She arrived with fleas, ticks, ear mites, skin mites, and a major ear infection at 10 weeks.:eek::eek: Both owners thought that they were being careful, but obviously not careful enough. I support spaying and neutering your pets because I have seen rows and rows of dogs in the shelters, most of which will be euthanized. Only a lucky few are actually sprung out of there. It is a epidemic in California with thousands of dogs being euthanized yearly.

As for early spaying, I probably should've waited a few months longer for Rosie, but it looks like there are risks either way. Only time will tell. It's too late now to worry about it.;)

PS.. Yes Becky, you opened up an interesting debate.;) Rosie was four months old when she was spayed.

[lulusmom]

Becky, I do hope that you are not feeling responsible for the passing of your little Maltese because she was spayed at an early age. There is absolutely no evidence that early spay causes cushing's and others can correct me if I'm wrong, but in our experience a cushingoid dog who is well controlled on treatment is more likely to die of old age before they succumb to the disease or complications of the disease. Did your vet do a necropsy on your little girl to determine the actual cause of death?

I don't know anybody who works at a shelter or is involved in rescue that doesn't advocate for spay and neuter but in my experience, the majority of those people are clueless as to the risks associated with early spay and neuter. All they know is that it's the law and if everybody obeyed the law, all shelters would be no kill and those of us who rescue would never have to shed another tear because we had to make a choice to save one or two, leaving all the others behind. If I had my way, everybody would have to do community service in an animal shelter. Maybe then, there would be a lot more of us to educate the public, which would save a lot more lives.

[becky]

Quoted from her vet:
The condition that she passed away from was acute cordae tendineae rupture with acute pulmonary congestion. One of the most dreaded complications of Cushing’s disease is the weakening of the muscle fibers, deterioration of tendons and ligaments due to changes caused by overproduction of steroids by the adrenal gland. As a consequence we see congestive heart failure as frequent complication from Cushing’s disease and it is usually caused by myxomatous degeneration (valvular endocardiosis) of mitral valve and chordae tendinae—the cordae tendineae is weakened by the steroid overproduction and can snap like an old rubber band. Hypothyroidism was an additional factor in causing different neuropathies and muscle weakness. Roxi’s ACTH stimulation test results are the highest that I have seen in the last 10 years and that is why I was taking some extra time before discussing the results and next steps in treatment with you. My suspicion was that Roxi may have had a very fast growing adrenal gland tumor that needed a different approach than the other routine Cushing’s cases that we have seen. The next step would have been a complete ultrasound to evaluate the abdomen, the heart and locate the adrenal gland that was cancerous and have consultations with Dr. Sellon at Washington State University who is an Internal medicine and Oncology specialist about further steps.

She was diagnosed a couple days before she passed so it was all very sudden. Of course I blame myself & I think no matter the circumstances of losing a pet, I will always feel guilty even though I know deep down that I was a great Momma to them & did everything I could.

[labblab]

Becky, I do now remember the tragic circumstances of your loss of Roxi. She had just had a diagnostic ACTH test performed that was "positive" for Cushings, which meant that her cortisol was abnormally elevated. This is the steroidal elevation associated with conventional Cushing's, as opposed to the steroid profile that Dr. Becker and others are talking about in conjunction with "Atypical Cushing's." So I hope it may give you some peace of mind to know that Roxi's illness was not of the type that they are linking to early spaying in their opinion pieces. I know that doesn't change your pain over her loss. But I hope it may ease a bit of the guilt you are feeling re: the original cause of her disease. :o

Marianne

[addy]

Hi Becky,

I cant answer your question but I can speak to your worry not wanting to go through the disease again and the added worry that all brings on having lost your precious pup.

We start worrying about little things, big things, we blame ourselves for things that were not our fault. I look at my Koko who was here for all of my Cush pup Zoe's journey and worry and wonder - so I can imagine how you are feeling with a new pup.

I guess I just wanted to stop by and give you hug and tell you it will all be ok and anytime you have a question or need to talk, you just come right back here because we will always be here to discuss whatever you want.

[molly muffin]

My molly was spayed at 11 months and here we are. :) I don't think the risk for cushings is greater or lesser depending on when they are spayed. I think there are other risks on both sides, too early or too late.

It's good to have interesting opening discussions, it is after all, how we learn. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, sweetheart, how well I know that blame game. When Squirt was first diagnosed I think I spent the first year trying to find out why, what had caused this to happen. I blamed her early surgeries (including the spay at 4 mos old), the food I gave her for so long, vaccinations and meds, my ignorance, the times I lost my temper and yelled at her, her mix of breeds, being taken from her mom too early, air and water pollution...everything under the sun in fact. I needed something to blame, anything. Since she passed in May, those thoughts have come back day after day after day. And always it seems I can find a way to blame myself for something I did or didn't do.

But the cold hard facts are that we simply do not know what causes this disease. There are hypotheses and theories but nothing concrete. What I know today is that my Sweet Bebe had the best life I could give her, that she was loved and always will be with all my being, that she does not blame me in the least, and that one day I will see her again...and the same is true of you and your precious Roxi.

[pansywags]

I am also at odds with rescues who think spaying and neutering senior dogs is a priority above all else. It is not!

Is this because you feel the risk of anasthesia to a senior may be greater than the benefits of spay/neuter? I'm not challenging, this is a genuine question. All the rescues I know insist on 100% spay/neuter regardless of age and I have never considered questioning it before.

As for cushings and spay, Pansy was at least 1.5 years old and had borne at least one litter before she was spayed.

[lulusmom]

Is this because you feel the risk of anasthesia to a senior may be greater than the benefits of spay/neuter? I'm not challenging, this is a genuine question. All the rescues I know insist on 100% spay/neuter regardless of age and I have never considered questioning it before.

Most people don't question it because rescues are required by law to neuter and spay all animals before releasing them. Just because it's the law doesn't mean you shouldn't act in the best interest of the animal. For example, aside from complying with the law, what is the benefit of spaying or neutering a 15 year old dog with a grade 4 heart murmur? The vast majority of really old small dogs have heart disease so this is a very common example that is played out every day. Does complying with the law outweigh the huge risk of killing a dog? Anybody in rescue who would say yes to that question needs to stick to rescuing healthy dogs. There are legal ways to avoid placing the dog at risk and then there are the thinking outside the box ways. :D

[Barb]

This is something I've been wondering about also.

We had our girl spayed when she was a little over 6 months old. She was healthy her entire life except PDC diagnosed when she was 10. With medication she lived to be a little over 16 years old.

She did not pass from Cushing's. She was just an old girl that was much loved her entire life.

I also have not been able to find solid evidence on link between Cushing's and early spay or neuter and would be very interested if anyone finds info on this.

I would never recommend spay or neuter an elder dog. I would think the risk of anesthesia at that age is way too high.