My Snuggles (Bichon Frise, 5.5 yrs old, Atypical Cushing's)

[Pagardener]

Hi..Am new to forum ..just received results from UTK that my Snuggles indeed has Atypical Cushings.
He is a Bichon Frise 5.5yrs old and has been steadily gaining weight since his neutering. Through 3 vets and several regulated protacted diets he continued to gain. Finally (after only 3 months) my current vet referred him to a specialist who after an ultra-sound and other tests sent the tests to Tennessee and they have confirmed Atypical Cushings.
Our specialist has put him on 1/4 tab of Lysodren once a week, 3mg of Melatonin once a day, flaxseed oil w/liganans (40mg caps) once a day and 300mg Milk thistle once a day. He says low and slow is best.

I guess my big question is diet...caloric count..what kind (right now he gets 1 can of Merrick chicken based Smothered Comfort divided into 2 meals..2 chicken tenders about 400 calories a day).

He is also getting .2mg soloxine for hypothyroidism, cosequin ds for his joints and joint treats for the same and doxycycline for newly diagnosed Lyme disease. (as if he did not have enuf to handle).

I guess I am just looking for some advice and hand holding.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Snuggles and his Mom,

Just wanted to welcome you both to our cush-family.

Although I can't offer alot of advice, bc I'm a beginner at this cushing too, I can do alot of hand holding :D

I'm sure the more knowledgable cush people will be along soon to ask questions/answer questions. So if you have any more questions you want answered just post them here in your thread.

How is Snuggles and his Mom doing today?

Take care,
Lori and Harley

[gpgscott]

Welcome,

My Moria is atypical but with elevations of estradiol only and so the Lysodren is not indicated in our treatment. She has been on lignans and melatonin now for two years and is doing well.

It would be interesting to see the results of the full adrenal panel, did you get a copy. The dose of Lysodren is very small and so I am guessing that his cortisol is not the major issue.

We have a number of members with a lot of experience concerning diet and I know they will be along to offer advice soon.

Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and Snuggles! :)

Bichon's are so sweet! I foster for a Bichon rescue and just fell in love with my little Snow Belle who now lives in NY state with her forever mom and dad.

My Squirt also has elevated intermediate/sex hormones (Atypical) but for now is just being treated with melatonin and purified lignans as her cortisol was not elevated on the last ACTH.

Do you have the actual results from UTK? If you don't mind posting those results, that would be a big help. How high was Snuggles cortisol? I assume the estradiol was elevated? The more info you can give us, the better. We just love details! :D

Here are a few links from our Resource section on Atypical for you that you may find helpful.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198

I know how scary all this is right now, especially in one so young. But, you don't have to take this journey alone. There is much experience, knowledge and support to found here and we are more than happy to share. We will be here with you every step of the way. Lord knows, if these wonderful folks can take me in, teach me, and hold me up when times have been tough...they will have no problem dealing with anyone else. :p I'm just a tad bit insane and go completely bonkers at the drop of a hat, and they still love me so you just hang in there. You have found the very best place to be when dealing with canine Cushing's.

Read all you can, ask lots of questions, and we will do our best to help you understand. Knowledge is power, and the more you know the stronger an advocate you will be for your sweet Snuggles. You are her only voice, her first and last defense, and we will help you be the best you can be in these roles.

I am glad you are here and hope to learn more about you and Snuggles soon.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Harley PoMMom]

Love Snuggles avatar :D

He is such a cute, handsome fellow.

Lori

[Pagardener]

I have a couple of questions.
I gave Snugs his first weekly Lysodren dose today. The melatonin, flaxseed and milk thistle have not yet arrived but I figured we would start one at a time.
Question...I understand the melatonin should be given on an empty stomach like his soloxin..so could I give them both together? He gets his soloxin in the morning 1-2 hrs before bkfst and in the evening (6.pm)1 hr before dinner. I thought I would give the melatonin in the morning as he gets his doxycycline with his soloxin in the evening.
Question..when should I give him the flaxseed and the milk thistle and should I put it on/in his food or seperately? Could I mix either with peanut butter as a treat after a meal? (that is how I give his pills..coat them with PB)
So many meds to juggle :)
Thanks
Barb and Snugs

[gpgscott]

Hi Barb,

Glad you are up on the solexine, if it is given with anything the uptake can be inhibited. That one I just push to the back of her tongue and she swallows. I do give the ranantidine with the solexine and then a tiny treat just to make sure she swallows.

A few hours later we give the rest, (in our case melatonin, milk thistle, glucosomine HCI, vitiamin C, lecithin. I give these in pb (Vandy calls it pb&p).

This works well for us based on labs and sympts. since beginning treatment.

Scott

[Pagardener]

I have the UTK numbers for those who have inquired
Cortisol baseline 57.8 post 138.0 (elevated on the baseline)
Androstenedione base .64 post 2.86 (elevated on baseline)
Estradiol basleine 82.6 post 80.5 (elevated on both)
Progesterone baseline .50 post 1.43 (elevated on baseline)
17OH Progesterone baseline .45 post 3.14 (elevated on both)
The recommendations were basically what I have been given by the vet.
Hope this means something to someone.:)
Barb and Snugs

[lulusmom]

Hi Barb,

I'm reposting Snuggles UTK results to include the reference ranges in parentheses. That way we can all see the extent of the respective elevations.

Cortisol baseline 57.8 (2.0 - 56.5) post 138.0 (70.6 -151.2)
Androstenedione base .64 (.05 - .36) post 2.86 (.24 - 2.90)
Estradiol basleine 82.6 (23.1 - 65.1) post 80.5 (23.3 - 69.4)
Progesterone baseline .50 (0.08-0.22) post 1.43 (.25-2.63)
17OH Prog. baseline .45 (.08 - .22) post 3.14 (.25 - 2.63)

Snuggles has some pretty significant elevations in both baseline and post estradiol levels so I certainly understand why UTK has recommended melatonon, lignans and a lysodren maintenance dose.

I have two Pomeranians diagnosed with hyprothyroidism. I have always given them their thyroxine in their food. Lulu has been on .05 twice a day for five years and Otis, our little foster guy was diagnosed about six months ago. He is on .1 twice a day and we just got his bloodwork back that says all is well. I specifically asked the IM about giving with food and he said it should be fine. It's a good thing too because our schedules don't allow for more than the already twice daily dosing we do.

Glynda

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Barb,

Just wondering how Snugs and his Mom are doing today. :)

Lori and Harley

[Pagardener]

Lori
Doing pretty good!! Busy day for Snugs..my grandson's HS graduation party was today at my daughters house. There were about 50 people there including 2 of my 4 great-grandchildren. Snugs had a lot of attention and after awhile he hid under a chair on his cool bed (we travel with more for him than us:) ).
He has had 1 of his weekly Lysodren and 2 doses of the Melatonin, flaxseed lignans, and milk thistle and so far he tolerates everything ok. I guess we will not see any great positive changes for awhile but at least no negative signs so far. We go back for a re-test for the Lyme on the 17th so I will know then whther or not he has gained any weight...hopefully not. That almost worries me more than the Lyme and atypical Cushings.
We shall see and thanks for asking:)
Barb and Snugs

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Barb,

Glad everything is going well.

Sending my gratulations to your grandson for his graduation of HS. :D
50 people! Wow, what a party :D It is so nice to be able to get together with family and friends, it seems time flies by so quickly, and with: hectic work/life schedules, precious cushpups who we worry so much about that it consumes us, and well everything else we have to deal with in life :p it is nice to be able get together with friends/family and just have a wonderful day :D


I guess we will not see any great positive changes for awhile When I e-mailed Dr. Oliver about how long it would take to see results (symptoms: panting, ravenous appetite, etc.) decline in Harley, he "said" to give it at least 2 months, but every dog is different. Harley's estradiol hormone is REALLY elevated. So we are keeping all our fingers and paws crossed that his number will come down and we will do the same for Snugs.:D

You both take care and good luck on the re-test for the Lyme on the 17th.

Lori and Harley

[Greyhound mom]

Hope your Snuggles will show signs of improvement soon. How long did it take to get your test results from Tennessee? It's been two weeks and I'm still waiting, and of course am anxious.
Best of luck!
Kim

[Pagardener]

Kim
We sent the test on May 11th the results were faxed to my vet on May 29th late afternoon so that is more than 2 weeks. I called my vet on May 28th (left a voice mail) but he did not call me until the following Tuesday with the results and recommended meds (he is only at the clinic on Mons. and Weds and since the results came in late Friday I can understand)..I know this because I went to the Clinic on Thursday to get a copy of the results :).
Hopefully you will hear soon...remind your vet you are anxiously awaiting the results..and when you get them get a copy of the report from Tennessee.
Good Luck
Barb:)

[Pagardener]

Lori
What I will be looking for is an increase in energy level..he is so lethargic.
I have hired? a veternarian nutritionist (found her on the internet..she worked at Tennessee for 6 years) to come up with a diet for Snugs. She will be working with my vet to try to get his weight down and to support his illness.
Hopefully her diet will work:confused:
Thanks for your note
Barb

[Pagardener]

Well it has been almost a year and unfortunately we are not doing better. In spite of a restrictive diet, and a few increases in meds, Snuggles' atypical Cushings is not any better and he has gained more weight. Here are the facts:

Snuggles, Bichon Frise, 6 years,Neutered Male, 47lbs
Diagnosed Hypothyroid on Solexine .2mg twice a day
Diagnosed atypical Cushings May 2009

His latest incarnation of meds just started
On Lysodren (twice a week) 250 mg once a week, 375 once a week,
6mg Melatonin twice a day, 40mg Flax Lignans once a day
Joint problems, on Cosequin DS 1 pill once a day and mini Joint treats 1 twice a day

Ultrasound revealed an enlarged bright liver with normal adrenal glands..tests sent to Tennessee..

first test:
Cortisol baseline 57.8 post 138.0 (elevated on the baseline)
Androstenedione base .64 post 2.86 (elevated on baseline)
Estradiol basleine 82.6 post 80.5 (elevated on both)
Progesterone baseline .50 post 1.43 (elevated on baseline)
17OH Progesterone baseline .45 post 3.14 (elevated on both)

He has had a second test Oct last year and here are his results:

Cortisol baseline 49 post 151.0 (ok on the baseline but post went up)
Androstenedione base 1.55 post 5.60 (elevated on both and higher than the 1st test)
Estradiol basleine 77.8 post 247.6 (elevated on both and the post is off the charts)
Progesterone baseline .20 post 1.40 (elevated on baseline)
17OH Progesterone baseline .45 post 3.75 (elevated on both)

As you can see his estradiol is waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy up as is his weight. We are changing his diet for the third time. We had a complete blood work up done on Monday and except for one indicator related to the estradiol everything looks great.

He is going for another adrenal panel in May to see results from new doses of Lysodren. He is still the ultimate canine couch potato..walks with me twice a day but not far and he hates hot weather. I just do not know what to do except trust the vets and keep my fingers crossed.

Has anyone experienced an overweight problem with atypical Cushings?
Thanks

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Barb,

The Lysodren probably will do nothing to lower that dratted estradiol. :( You really need a lignan with a high SDG to get that estradiol down (although the melatonin will help alittle).

I am so sorry Snuggles is struggling with his weight...Have you consulted Dr Jean Dodds on his thyroid? Dr Jean Dodds takes in consideration of a pups breed, age, and sex when doing her thyroid panel, plus the dogs health history. I do strongly urge you to talk to her...JMO.

Thanks so much for the update, and I wish you and Snuggles the best of luck.

I will be looking forward to seeing the results of his May panel, and hopefully we won't have to wait until then to hear from you! ;):D

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Pagardener]

Lori
his Flax is NSI 40 mg flax lignan (capsule) standardized at 20% SDG (seed). It is the one the vet recommended and UTK said that was the correct mg.
Will have to get his latest thyroid results b4 I contact Dr. Jean Dodds.
Barb

[jrepac]

He is SO cute! Even tho' he is 47 pounds! Weight is always a problem w/the Cushings pups...tho' I had thought it less of an issue w/Atypical?? Mine has both regular & atypical, so I think she is classified simply as 'cushings"...we struggle back and forth with the same 2 lbs every few months. My Mandy was getting close to 20lbs (down from 26), but then picked up 2lbs! rats!

Have you tried introducing more veggies into the diet? maybe cut back on some of the regular food and replace with raw or cooked veggies. I found that very helpful. Not sure if you are giving wet food or dry, but very easy to reduce the amount of wet and replace with cooked carrots, green beans, etc. Just avoid onions. Mine also loves the raw baby carrots you buy in the store. munch, munch, munch

And naturally, cut back on any biscuits, jerkies, etc...they are loaded with fat.

Jeff

[Pagardener]

Hi Jeff...thanks for the reply!!!!! I 'Hired' a nutritionist and she set up a caloric value diet for his goal weight of 25lbs (which is what we believe he should weigh based on his weight at 4 months). He has been on that diet for over 9 months. He eats lower fat 'wet' food but we are changing to a one which is not only low in fat but also low on the glycemic index. We are hoping that one works. He was on a similar food and was losing then the company changed the formula 2 months ago and he started gaining again. So I have been searching the internet for the food like the original formula and finally found it..it is on its way..will be here on Thursday. Keeping my fingers crossed
Barb