Tascha the Dutch Malinois

[KarenTascha]

Hi all,
I am sooo glad I found you all again.
I haven't responded to all of you're threads yet but I am very glad to see all those names back I have read and followed in the old forum.

I have been very quiet lately so I want to introduce us back again for all who don't realy know us.
Tascha is an belgium shepherd, Malinois. She's from 2 march 1997, so she now is 12 years old. I got her as an puppy, long time ago and we are very, very close friends. She got me through some very though periods.
She was diagnosed with Cushings at 13 nov. 2006, so wer're now almost 3 years on our way.
Actually all went well very quickly. She had done very great for a long time. We started with 2x 60 mg Vetoryl (1 in the morning, 1 in the evening)
For some reason, we are down to just 1x 30 mg Vetoryl.

The latest test was at 27th april this year. She's now at 76 nmol/L or about 2,72 mg/dl.
Everything was fine accept her urine.. it was more water then something else and contained a lot of protein..
Some test later we found out that Tascha has a very early stage of glomerulonephritis (A form of nephritis characterized by inflammation of the glomeruli). The glomeruli are an importand part of the kidneys so I am a bit worried.
She is now on medication what lowers her blood pressure, it should give those glomeruli a break and give them time to recover.
With 1,5 month time we are going back for a new ACTH test, urine test and bloodtests to see where we are.

Tascha is doing fine for an old dog, I think she is a bit slow on her lower blood presure but she is eating good again and her drinking is a bit down to normal so I guess she is doing well.

Does anyone know what to do when the kidneys fail?
I know she can't have Vetoryl when she got real kidney problems, but my vet doesn't know what to do if she got that far..

For now I am just hoping we are in time and those glomeruli got better with those lower blood presure.

Best wishes,

Karen & Tascha

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Karen,
Welcome back to our new home. I am not familiar with Tascha's story, so thank you for the introduction.

Have you thought about using supplements like milk thistle to help the kidney's. Might want to check with your vet. I'm sure the other's here as I affectionately call them with much more experience than I will be by to offer help and support.

Thank you for returning to us and I do hope Tascha recovers nicely.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Karen,

Welcome back to the family... I'm sorry, I don't know much about renal failure either. I do hope Tascha has the type or is at a stage that is preventable. It is good that she seems to be doing well otherwise.

-Susy

[gpgscott]

Greetings, Karen and Tascha.

Scott

[Wylie's Mom]

Alison found this link for you regarding kidney disease:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

I've read some of her (Mary Straus') articles regarding other dog issues, and have always found them to be very informative.

-Susy

[AlisonandMia]

Hi Karen - what med is she on for the blood pressure?

Some blood-pressure meds (but not all of them) can be a problem with Trilostane. The brand name might not mean much to us but the chemical name of the drug should.

Trilo can be a problem with kidney problems I believe, but it may well depend on what the kidney problem actual is.

Alison

[frijole]

Hi Karen. My dog Haley was diagnosed about the same time as Tascha so we share a 3 yr anniversary of treatment. Congrats and hugs from us to you guys. Haley too is getting old. She's over 15 now. But she is happy so we are blessed each day. Glad you found us.

Kim

[labblab]

Hi Karen!!!!!!

I will come back at a later time and add some more, but I couldn't resist quickly stopping by and telling you how glad I am to see you and Tascha back here where you belong!!!! :) :) :)

Marianne

[forscooter]

Karen,

I had to smile when I saw you back here! I am so glad to "see" you!

Bailey was diagnosed with early renal failure about a year ago. I am going to try and dig up some articles that really helped me. He was put on enalapril and moderate protein diet. However, I have read conflicting opinions on reducing the protein and have since switched back. Not sure until I get his labs that that was a good thing bc he was back to having normal values and now we are having some "weird" issues I haven't yet been able to pinpoint.

I'm going to see what I can dig up but I too had to at least come and say "Welcome Home"!

Hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scooter

Here are some links that helped me:

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/kf.html

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_chronic_renal_failure.html

[lulusmom]

Hi Karen,

Can you please post the abnormal values on whatever tests your vet utilized to diagnose glomerulonephritis? I did a lot of reading up on kidney problems when Lulu had her last bloodwork. I don't have time to share right now but will be back later.

Glynda

[KarenTascha]

Hi all,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I am very glad to be back with this great warm family.

Tascha hasn't got any values out of range accept that she had proteinuria and the urine was very watery. (sorry, don't know if that's the right word)
In order to see if she could concentrate the urine I put her on a low-water diet so she got enough water but not too much.
It went very well and she got nicely concentrated urine but now it contained even more protein. They run some tests on that and told me that her kidneys were leaking protein.
Her bloodtests were all normal, an ultrasound showed no problems either, so the vet told me he believed she was in a very early stage of glomerulonephritis.

She has got Benakor, that contains benazeprilhydrochloride to lower the bloodpresure. In holland this is a common medicine for kidney problems in our pets.
The vet wants us back after this 2 months and then we go and see where we are. If she hasn't got proteinurine anymore than she is cured, at least for some time..
If she still has got protein in her urine I don't know what we will do..

The vet told me that once a dog got real kidney problems she can't have Vetoryl. That's because the level of Vetoryl could become too high in her body because of the kidneys failing to let it leave the body as they should.

I am going to read all the links and info you guys gave me. I am back to school in getting myself informed about this new chapter.

Best wishes,

Karen & Tascha

[BestBuddy]

Hi Karen,
I just wanted to say hello and say how nice it was to get an up-date on Tascha. It is good to "see" you again.
Jenny

[lulusmom]

Hi Karen,

My Lulu had a 2+ protein and like Tascha, all of her other bloodwork and urinalysis were perfectly normal. I was nervous because she is on a high protein diet. I wasn't that up on kidney disease so I did a lot of research in trying to figure out if I needed to change her to a lower protein diet.

Lulu's IMS was not concerned with this abnormality as the majority (up to 75%) of cushdogs do have some protein loss that is secondary to the disease. In most dogs, there is and never will be a serious complication from it and it is not an indication that a dog is in the beginning stages of kidney disease. High blood pressure, however, is tough on the kidneys. Did your vet actually confirm that Tascha's blood pressure is high or did he or she prescribe the Benakor based solely on the protein loss? Lulu gives me high blood pressure but she does not have it. :D I believe that Louise (Munchie's mom) has become quite an expert on the different types of blood pressure measurement so I hope she'll drop by and give you some tips.

Glynda

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Karen,

I remember you and Tascha. Good to see you again. I wish I did have more expertise as far as canine blood pressure goes but all I've really got is my experience with an extremely stressed out dog during vet visits. Was Tascha nervous/stressed when her blood pressure was taken and the diagnosis made? That can definitely make a difference. Munchie was originally diagnosed with high blood pressure but when I took him to his current IMS I was informed that an accurate diagnosis could not be made on a dog that stressed. Even she is unable to take his bp. His nephrologist is the only one who is able to do the deed. An automatic monitor is used and he is allowed to sit there with me (the doctor leaves the room). His bp registers normal and is excellent until the doctor comes back into the room and then it jumps up to almost 200/100 :eek:....so, stress can make a difference.

Benakor (benazeprilhydrochloride) is an ACE inhibitor. Below is the info about use with Vetoryl from the Vetoryl brochure. Since an ACE inhibitor can increase potassium levels, I'd want to get that checked sooner than 2 months.


Angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors should be used with caution with VETORYL Capsules, as both drugs have aldosterone-lowering effects which may be additive, impairing the patient’s ability to maintain normal electrolytes, blood volume and renal perfusion.

Also, Here is a link about glomerulonephritis.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_glomerulonephritis.html


Thinking good thoughts for you and your Tascha. Give her some extra pets from me!!

Louise

[KarenTascha]

The vet gave Tascha the ACE just because he diagnosed the glomerulonephritis, he didn't actually measured what the bloodpresure was.

So I don't know if that was high or not.
He explained to me that by lowering the presure the kidneys will recover.

Thanks for sharing the information about being careful with the ACE and Vetoryl.. It seems like I have a lot of reading to do.

Best wishes,

Karen & Tascha

[lulusmom]

Hi Karen,

Can you get copies of the tests and post the abnormal values?

Glynda

[Dollydog]

Welcome home Karen and Tascha...I'm so glad you found us. It's good to get an update on your beautiful girl.
Wishing you all the best with this latest challenge in her health care,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Karen and Tascha,

Sorry to read Tascha is having some problems at this moment. I do not know too much about kidneydisease...but with Dechra's warning (the manufactorer of Trilostane) about the use of ACE inhibitors while also on Trilostane, I would go talk to my vet again, pretty soon.

As I understand it, there was no actual bloodpressuse meassured...so it's not even sure Tascha has high bloodpressure?

Dechra says the following in their own brochure about Trilostane and the use of ACE inhibitors:
"The risk of hyperkalaemia developing should be considered if Trilostane is used in conjunction with Potassium-sparing diuretics or ACE inhibitors. The concurrent use of such drugs should be subject to a risk-benefit analysis by the veterinary surgeon, as there have been a few reports of deaths (including sudden death) in dogs when treated concurrently with Trilostane and an ACE inhibitor."

So according to Dechra, a risk - benefit analysis should be done...and without knowing even for certain Tascha has high bloodpressure, I wonder if the risk isn't greater then the possible benefit. If I were you, I would seriously talk to my vet about this.

And also, several months ago, Yunah was feeling a bit under the weather. Nothing serious but just not her usual, joyfull self. She had no fever, was eating normally, no vomitting, but she was peeing a bit less and drinking a bit less. I collected some urine and brought her to the vet. They found there was proteine in her urine. But it could be a sign of many things like for example an inflammation somewhere... We decided to do nothing and wait and see. She stayed a bit tired for a week and then she fully recovered. I had her urine checked again and the proteine was gone.

And like Glynda's Lulu, who had a 2+ proteine loss...without anyhing else serious going on...probably secundary to the Cushing's.

That fact that proteine loss in its own is not a definate diagnosis of a kidneydisease , together with Dechra's own warning about the use of Trilostane and an ACE inhibitor and the fact you don't know for sure if Tascha's bloodpressure is indeed high, would make me stop and have a conversation with the vet first...before even thinking about giving an ACE inhibitor to a dog that's on Trilostane.

Don't want to scare you, but want you to have all the right information about the use and risks of Trilostane in combination with an ACE inhibitor. So please, go talk to yout vet... :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

http://www.dechra-uk.com/downloadfiles/Vetoryl120mgCapsulesProductDataSheet.pdf

[KarenTascha]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the information. I have read a lot this days and became worried about her. She sleeps a lot this days and her condition isn't what it used to be.

I have contacted our vet by mail about it all, I am waiting for a respond.

Best wishes,

Karen & Tascha

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Karen,

Please let us know what the vet says. I'm sorry your gorgeous Tascha isn't feeling well and hope things turn around for her soon.

Keep your chin up, we are here with you all the way!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Snoopy]

Hi Karen
Was wondering how Tascha is doing at the moment?
Bye Mienke

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Karen
Was wondering how Tascha is doing at the moment?
Bye Mienke

I'm curious, too, Karen? Last we heard, Tascha was having some problems. I hope she is better now.

When you get a chance, do drop a line. :o

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

PS...thanks, Snoopy!

[Dollydog]

Me too, Karen, I'm wondering how Tascha is doing. Hope everything is just fine.
Jo-Ann & Lady :)