Raleigh, Archie, Gus

[scoora]

Thursday morning Archie got his rabies shot. I talked to the vet before he got the shot and said I was concerned because of what I read. She felt it would be fine and he is by law supposed to have it now. Just makes me sick what I did get to read about vaccinations. Well Friday morning he apparently had a seizure. I took him to the emergency hospital because his vet wasn't in yet. I asked the emergency vet if it could have been caused from the rabies shot. She said that's not the first thing we think of but she said he was too young for 2 other things she mentioned. She said she could do blood work and make sure things were OK. That was fine with me. She said the only thing that was off was his white cell count was a bit high. She said it could be from the rabies shot or maybe he's starting with an infection. She put him on antibiotics. When I spoke to his regular vet on the phone she said the elevated white count was probably from the rabies shot and she would not have started him on antibiotics. I said will it hurt? She said no. I was looking at a link Kathy gave me about rabies shots and it mentions about not giving antibiotics. I'll tell you. I can't catch a freekin break. Why is all this crap happening? Am I being punished? All I want to do is love my guys and nothing seems to go right. Will those seizures keep happening or was it one time? Boy am I scared.

[doxiesrock912]

Oh no Vicki!
I'm hoping for no more problems. Daisy has never had a problem so I really can't offer any advice.

How is Archie now?

[Budsters Mom]

This whole situation makes me sick.:eek: We just talked about this on Rosie's thread and I sent you a link, now this has happened to poor Archie. YES! I definitely think that his seizure was due to the rabies shot. This is my opinion based on the facts. Archie had a seizure the morning after he had his rabies shot. Seizures were listed on the side effects list.

PLEASE report this to the manufacturer IMMEDIATELY!!! Go to your vet and ask for the lot number of the vaccine Archie received. Have them give you the information in writing and have the vet sign and date it. You need the time and date that the vaccine was given on the paper. ask your vet to note what part of the body the shot was given. Get all the details you possibly can. After that go home and write down everything that the vet told you when you asked him/her about the shot. You will need those notes when you contact the manufacturer. Please do this right away. The manufacture may even pay for Archie's emergency care, so GET COPIES OF EVERYTHING! You may need to go back to the emergency vet to get that. The details for contacting the manufacturer are on that link I sent you. If this were my pup, I would be on a mission at this point and EVERYBODY better watch out!!!! Be calm and in control. If you act crazy, they are less likely to take you serious. Know the facts and don't let anyone intimidate you! If I didn't get the help I wanted from the manufacturer, I would take this all the way to the next level, which is the state because they require these vaccinations. This is the way I would handle this. I do not lay down and play dead.

As for whether Archie will have any more seizures, I have no way of knowing that. Keep a close eye on him and make sure to keep all of your medical information and copies. ((((Big hugs)))

[Trish]

Hi Vicki
OH no, it does seem to be one thing after another with your lot, sorry to read that happened to poor Archie, what actually happened when he had the seizure? Can you describe it?

If it is listed as a side effect, then it would usually be a reaction in the individual dog not as a result of a bad vaccine especially if it is not occurring in other dogs around the same time. But I would still let them know, the vet should actually so it is noted officialy. We have a govt agency that record adverse reactions to medication, not sure if there is something similar for animals but they are worth reporting as Kathy said as if there are similar things happening with others then they need to look at the reason why.

If it was a true seizure then they can happen for a variety of reasons, high termperature is one example and his white cells were up so could have been that, or most simply reaction to the rabies shot. Hopefully just a one-off though. Such a worry for you with your new babies, hope it is smooth sailing from now on. We do not have rabies in NZ so do not have to give this vaccine to our dogs and reading this I am very thankful of that. xx

[scoora]

Thanks Valerie, Kathy and Trish.
Kathy, I agree. This whole situation makes me sick too. I looked at the website you gave me but couldn't get to much of it. It was late. The next morning I mentioned to the vet about my concerns and she said they are supposed to by law have them between 3 and 4 months old. Archie is 4 1/2 months old. I said about allowing 3 weeks between shots. She said 2-3 is OK. Just erks me so much that this happened after I was worried about it. I don't know why I didn't go with my gut feeling. I thought about waiting a week or two but the vet made it sound like it was OK. I always put my trust in them that they know what they are doing. I don't think she would do something if she felt it wasn't right but DANG IT why did this have to happen. I did talk about getting them the Lyme disease shot and the vet said we shouldn't do that now. Now I have to think about using that other crap on them for flees and ticks.

I too think it was the shot. That's horrible what they say on that link about it. I think I will offer to tell the vet what the website is if she is interested in reading about it. The emergency vet said she can't say for sure if he had a seizure because she didn't see it but his regular vet said she thinks it was a seizure but she can't say if it was from the shot or not. I have a feeling that she thinks it probably was but just can't say it. Knock on wood, if nothing happens till next year I will be afraid for him to get this shot again. Do you know if they can have problems like this with other vaccines?

The vet told me she will report it to the manufacture but I will follow up on it. Thanks for telling me all those things I should find out. The vet Archie sees is only in on Thursdays and Fridays. They have a different vet there the other days but I can talk to the girls up front and see if they can help me. I have a discharge summary and a copy of his blood work from the hospital. Maybe that will do.

[scoora]

Trish,
What happened was Friday morning Archie and Gus ate breakfast and then chased each other around for a bit. Then when I sat down on the loveseat to eat my cereal Archie wanted to sit with me and crawled onto my lap and just laid there. I thought this was strange because the two of them go at it for much longer than they did. I thought maybe he still was feeling the effects of the shot and was tired. When my daughter is done with breakfast she sits on the floor and talks to them for a bit. Archie wanted down off my lap and went to her which was normal. He laid on her lap which he does. After a bit he coughed and made a gagging noise. I didn't know if it was Archie or Gus because Gus does that because of his nose. Molly said it was Archie. She said he then started breathing real fast but was real still. Then he peed on her. She put him on the floor and his breathing went back to normal but laid still, eyes open, did not blink, legs straight out and stiff. She petted him and called his name. I was frantically running around to take him to the hospital. She said all of a sudden he got up on his own and wagged his tail real fast like he just realized she was there with him. Then he acted normal. I still took him to the hospital to be checked. Scared us like crazy.

Not sure what you are saying about the temperature and white cells. Are you saying individually they can cause a seizure? His temp was normal at the hospital. His white cell count was 6,000 something and 5,000 something is normal so it wasn't that high. Both vets said the high count could be from the shot. When he is done with the antibiotics we are going to recheck the white cell count.

You're lucky no rabies shot in NZ. Are you required by law to get any vaccines? All that stuff is such crap. Money for the drug companies. It's also a bunch of crap that they can have your dog put to sleep if he doesn't have the shot. Just makes me sick. I worried about that with Scoop. He had his last rabies shot when he was 6 1/2 years old so he was good till 9 1/2. For 3 years he was illegal. His oncologist said he shouldn't get any more shots after he had mast cell tumors removed.

The last couple of days Archie seems like he is tired more than he had been to me unless it's me just worrying.

Does anyone know if seizures can cause any permanent damage of any kind?

[Budsters Mom]

Oh Vicki,
I feel terrible that this happened right after we discussed it. We don't know with absolute certainty that Archie's seizure was caused by his rabies shot, but that is my feeling. We also don't know that if you'd waited a few more weeks whether it would've made any difference. :o

I research everything that a vet tells me. My vets had many things wrong when it came to Cushing protocol. I think they do their best, but they just don't know everything. I go in armed with information so I have plenty of questions to ask. Buddy got the care he needed because my vet knew that I was up on things and had done my research. It was that diligence that got my GP to consult with the neurosurgeon (at the specialty hospital)on Buddy's behalf. That neurosurgeon actually monitored Buddy's treatment through my vet at no cost to me. It is no different with shots or anything else that they want to do. I do my homework first and then I go in prepared. I get my money's worth at those appointments!;):D It is easy to Google anything and get all the information you can possibly need. You are your own pups best advocate.:)

I sincerely hope that Archie's seizure was an isolated event. Since your vet said that they were going to follow up with a report to the manufacturer, please request a copy of that to make sure that it has been filed. If they know that you are going to follow up on it, they are more likely to get it done in a reasonable time frame. ;) Be sure to note dates and times on everything.

[scoora]

Kathy,
You're right. It could have happened no matter when he got the shot but I keep thinking what if it would have made a difference if we would have waited another week or two. Just kicking myself. I can't believe it happened either after talking about it. Gus was scheduled to get his this week. The vet said at Archie's appointment that we can wait till he's 4 months old which will be on the 4th. Thanks for the advise. I am going to talk to the vet's office tomorrow and see what they say about it. Since I just talked to the vet after she was done with appointments on Friday it was 8:00PM and she won't be in tomorrow so I'll see what the girls have to say. I looked at the website you linked me to on Thursday night but it was so late and his appointment was 9:30AM I didn't have a chance to be too prepared. I did question if it was too soon after his distemper shot and mentioned my concerns about the side affects but she said he is at the age where he is required by law that he is supposed to have it. I did not know the website when she asked me.

If I have a chance tomorrow I'll see if the pet store can either give me contact info or if they will contact Archie's breeder or the people who adopted Archie's sister and see if there is any history of seizures or if his sister had any problems. The regular vet mentioned about his parents. That's where I got that idea from.
Thanks again for you help.
Hugs

[Trish]

Hi Vicki
I was just thinking if there was anything else going on like an infection to cause high temp it could cause a seizure as it does in kids, but as his temp was OK then not likely. White cell elevation can be a sign of infection which often goes with a high temp, but his is not up very much and I would agree with your vets putting it down to the shot.

We do not require any shots here by law in NZ, they used to do compulsory dosing for hydatids years and years but we do not have that anymore as it was eradicated. They recommend the usual parvo and kennel cough which they must have if they are going to be boarded anywhere. They also give canine distemper, leptospirosis and hepatitis. This year Flynn's vet decided he did not have to have anything which I was pleased about.

That does sound scary, hopefully a one-off for Archie. Any lasting effects or is he back to bouncing around again? They are keeping you on your toes Vicki but I am pretty sure you can well do without it!! xx

[mcdavis]

I hope that Archie's seizure was a one-off, and definitely agree with Kathy that you should ensure the vet reports it to the manufacturer. Also make a note of the location of the vaccination.

Living in England until a few years ago I was totally ignorant about rabies shots, and when Hamish had his first at 12 years old the vet didn't give me any information or warnings (but as it was in the UK they probably didn't know much about it either - they only gave rabies vaccines to pets who were emigrating).

It was only when he was 15 and the local vet raised some concerns over his age that I got worried and started to do some research.
Then I met someone who's dog actually died the day after it's rabies shot. I wanted to use a particular vaccine and only one vet in our area had it - I was surprised at the nonchalance, ignorance and comments that I was paranoid from some of the surgeries that I called..... One actually joked that it was very unlikely anything would happen, and that nothing ever really did happen, and was slightly taken aback when I told her otherwise.

[scoora]

How did that person's dog die after the rabies shot?
What was the particular vaccine called that you wanted to use?

[scoora]

Trish,
Archie is pretty active most of the day. In the mornings he seems to get tired quicker than he did before. That worries me since he had the seizure in the morning. I keep watching him.

Anyone know what kind of lasting effects seizures can have?

[scoora]

I tried to put photos in an album. Was not successful. Any suggestions? I don't remember how I did it with Scoop's pictures.

[Trish]

Maybe its just taking him a few days to get over the jab Vicki. I am not sure about lasting side effects but I know in humans they often do not have any so fingers crossed the same for Archie.

Re photos, click on your name to go to your profile page. Click on albums, then you can start a new one. Once you name it you should be able to go to upload photos then click in the box to locate in your computer then click upload and voila! Well I hope so, that's how I do it anyway :) There are probably better instructions in the help section of the site if this does not help!

[labblab]

Vicki, is Archie still taking the antibiotic? It might be that it is making him feel a little bit "off," and he'll be back to normal once he finishes with it.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, I just wanted to say hello and I've been following Gus and Archie's journey so far. I'm sorry they have had problems, small nose and now the seizure. Hopefully everything will work itself out right. You so deserve to have a stress free time with your loving boys.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[mcdavis]

How did that person's dog die after the rabies shot?
What was the particular vaccine called that you wanted to use?

Sorry but I don't know the details - it wasn't a close friend and I really didn't like to ask as it was quite recent and they were not forthcoming. I got the impression that they didn't actually see anything unusual.
The vaccine I wanted to use was Merial IMRAB - basically because it was the one that was used both times with Hamish and he didn't have any reaction (so just my personal preference, nothing scientific).

[scoora]

Thanks for the info.
I did read about a certain rabies vaccine to ask for. I will have to recheck what it said and see if it is the Merial IMRAB.

[scoora]

Trish, That's what I did try and it didn't upload. I'll have to give it another try.
My fingers are crossed too.

Marianne, Yes, Archie is still taking the antibiotic. Should be done with it Friday.

Sharlene, Thanks

The last couple of days Gus has been having what sounds like phlegm. Probably from his tiny nose. Poor little guy. It's going to be months before he can get that taken care of.

I can't believe how much both of them have grown in the almost 2 months they have been with us.

[scoora]

I was able to get a couple of pictures loaded. Will do more another time.

[Trish]

Glad you got the pics sorted out Vicki, what adorable little guys!

[molly muffin]

They are adorable Vicki!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[mcdavis]

Great pictures - Thank you so much for sharing them.

How's Archie doing now?

[scoora]

Archie has not had any more seizures (knock on wood) that I know of. Hopefully it was once and done and there is nothing else going on with him. I worry all the time. I guess because of what Scoop went through, it just makes me constantly think something could be wrong. He goes to the vet on Thursday for a check-up and some blood work to check his white cell count. He seems to sleep more than Gus. Sometimes that worries me. I love all my boys so much!!

[scoora]

Thanks for the comments on the pictures of my little guys.

Archie had blood work done yesterday to recheck his white cell count. It is still elevated. The vet said the emergency hospital reads their tests differently then the way the lab does so there was something about not reading the difference between the 2 tests. Anyway, the way the lab does it is up to 4500 is normal and Archie's is 8700. She said about the Lymphosites. I am worried. I thought maybe it was high 2 weeks ago because of the rabies shot. The vet said she was going to have the lab check out the structure or something. Why can't things go smoothly without any problems?

[scoora]

Does any one have pet insurance?
If so which one?

[scoora]

I should have put Raleigh's name in the title of this thread.
Will someone please change it to read: Raleigh, Archie, Gus
Thank you.

[scoora]

Today is Raleigh's 10th birthday.
It is also my daughter Molly's birthday.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Raleigh and Molly!!
I hope you both have a wonderful day.
We love you.

[labblab]

Vicki, the title change is all taken care of, and I send my Happy Birthday wishes to Molly and Raleigh! :) :)

Many, many hugs to you all! :p :) ;)
Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy 10th Birthday, Raleigh!


Happy Birthday, Molly!

[molly muffin]

Happy Birthday Raleigh!!!

Happy Birthday Molly!!

Live long and prosper!!

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Marianne, Thank you for taking care of the change and the birthday wishes for Raleigh and Molly.

Leslie, Sharlene, Thank you for the birthday wishes for Raleigh and Molly.

[Budsters Mom]

Happy belated birthday Molly and Raleigh! xxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy belated birthday, Molly and Raleigh!!

[Roxee's Dad]

Oh my Gosh.. I missed a birthday...


Happy belated birthday Molly and Raleigh

[scoora]

Thank you for all the birthday wishes for Raleigh and Molly.

[scoora]

The last few days Raleigh has been playing with some toys. Only for a short period of time but at least he is showing interest. I can't remember if it was before or after Scoop passed that Raleigh since he showed any interest. Then with the puppies I was afraid I might have made things worse for him. I think he is finally feeling more comfortable with Archie and Gus. Maybe Raleigh was missing Scoop more than I thought. The whole thing brings tears to my eyes.

[Squirt's Mom]

Sometimes it takes the babies left behind a while to adjust just as it does us humans. Raleigh lost his best buddy and his mom has been different, too, because she misses his buddy as much as Raleigh does. But now his mom is feeling a little better and he senses that as well. AND he has two new buddies to get to know. ;)

Archie and Gus have brought a whole new world to the both of you; new adventures, new loves, new hope. And you are both healing in this new world.

[scoora]

Oh thanks Leslie. You just have such a way of saying things. It brought tears to my eyes but it made me feel good to read what you said. You are such a sweetheart.

[goldengirl88]

Vicky;
Thinking of you and Scoop and the new babies. Hope Raleigh is doing well now. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

A couple of days ago Raleigh and Archie were playing tug of war with a toy. They were growling at each other but I could tell they were being playful. It was so great to see Raleigh enjoying playing like that.

Archie has started with scratching in his neck area, rib area and he licks or gives little nibbles to his back legs or the area where his tail and back meet. He is so sensitive on his back when you touch him. I took him to the vet and she checked for flees. I heard flees are bad this year. I never dealt with them. She said there were no signs of them so she suspects allergies. She wants me to start Archie on Benadryl. She said he might have to go on Prednezone. Gosh, he's only 5 months old. Steroids so young? Why can't things just go smooth?

[scoora]

Now Archie has started with diarrhea. Went several times tonight.
I did not start the Benadryl yet.
Now what the heck is going on? My poor little guy. I don't know what to make of it! Archie's poops have been really good till now.

[scoora]

Archie's diarrhea seemed better. Now tonight he had it bad again.
My little guy has been out so many times tonight.
Wish I knew what was going on.

[Mel-Tia]

Little monkey has probably eaten something again! They are notorious for doing that when they are babies. I would put him on chicken and rice for a few days and hopefully it will clear up

I know it's hard not to worry Vicki but hopefully it will just clear up again, if it isn't bloody then he doesn't have colitis, just keep an eye like I know you will and I am sure it will be ok

Kisses for all the babies and a hug to you
Love
Mel
Xxxxx

[molly muffin]

I agree, chicken and rice. Might he need some florifora? When molly get the runs bad, she usually has a bacterial infection from something. Maybe something she got into, ate, stepped in and licked her paws.
Just a thought.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Hi Mel, Sharlene,
Thanks. A tech in the vet's office on Monday told me to do the chicken or hamburger and rice. I was doing that for 2 days. Archie's poops were better so I started to mix in some dog food on Wednesday and he had some treats. Wednesday night he had the runs again. Raleigh had them too Wednesday night. I lost track how many times I was out with the 2 of them that night. Thursday I talked to the vet and she said do Forti Flora and the chicken or hamburger and rice but she said to make sure I add the dog food back a little bit then gradually increase it but she didn't say how long his stools should be normal before starting to add the dog food. He went one time today and it was pretty firm. He gobbles up the chicken or hamburger and rice so fast that the other day he was done and I didn't know it. I had my back turned and before I knew it he was in Raleigh's bowl. I hope all this chicken and burger doesn't spoil him and he won't want to go back to dog food. I hate that he is going all this time without the nutrients from the dog food.
Do you gradually add dog food back in or do you just start feeding it all at once?

[Mel-Tia]

Hey Vicki

Hang in there, I remember a couple of christmas's ago Tia and Boyce had the runs and it was a nightmare with them both, just get one sorted then the other would start, to this day I have no idea what caused that, we were away and not near the vets, even chicken and rice seemed to upset them at first!

I think when they are babies they are even more sensitive, him getting in Raleigh's food would have probably triggered it as any new food can do that to them. They are into everything and it is hard to stop them, which is a vicious circle.

I think when they have had it bad, adding it gradually is best. I think the nutrients would only become a concern if it wad over a long period of time. Leslie will know the answer to that one ;)

Mel
Xxxxx

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, when you add back in the dog food, I would not give him the treats you are giving him now. If his poops were fine on the chicken or hamburger and rice, then you said you gave him dog food and a treat and he got the runs. So, I'd start simple and not do the treats. Give him something like shredder carrot or green bean for a treat (might as well start him early on that). I'm thinking elimination to see what is actually causing the runs. He might be reacting to just one ingredient even in either the treat or the dog food. If you can find a freeze dried chicken treat or something with very minimal ingredient in it for treat, that would probably work as well as the green beans or carrots.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Mel, Sharlene-Thanks for the advise. As a matter of fact both Archie and Gus love carrots, green beans, and blueberries.
I need to find out from the vet when I can start to add dog food. He only had the runs Sunday night and Wednesday night. He has not been going any where near as often since he's been eating the chicken, hamburger and rice. They have been semi soft with specks in it. Does the rice not digest right? Archie always had such good poops until this started.
Sharlene, I didn't think about taking it slow. Should have waited on the treats.
The vet said no turkey on Thanksgiving because it's not boiled. I was so hoping to give Archie and Gus a little since it's their first Thanksgiving.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I miss you, but I know you are busy with the little ones. Hope everything gets cleared up with the diets. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

Hi Vicki,

Sounds like you have your hands full. I just wanted to stop by to wish all of you a Happy Thanksgiving. I hope the puppies are feeling better.

[scoora]

Patti, Addy
Thanks. Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone.

[molly muffin]

Happy Thanksgiving Vicki, to you and the whole gang!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Happy Thanksgiving to you and the babies. Hope you have a wonderful day together. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Sharlene and Patti,
Thanks
I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving too.

Archie is still having poop problems so they won't be having any turkey. I get so darn worried about things and this problem is worrying me.

[scoora]

I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.
This diarrhea problem that Archie has is worrying me. Now Gus has had some the last 2 days also. Archie had been scratching and licking himself for a while. Now he gnaws on himself and pulls his fur. It's in the upper back leg area. He goes after it so bad it looks like it bleeds a bit. The one spot also looked like it was swollen. I took him to see the vet Friday. She doesn't want to put him on anything for his itchiness until his stools are better. That has been going on for 2 weeks. Now Gus has started gnawing on his paw and leg. Sure wish I knew what the heck is going on!

I had a trainer come to the house to see if she could help with a few issues. I am not happy with the way things went. I wish I would have been smarter and done my homework before I made an appointment. She uses prong collars, which she called a "mama collar". Her website says no shock collars but doesn't mention the others. I was surprised but went along with it because it was explained to me how it works. It seemed OK while the 2 people were here but when they left and I had time to think about things, I didn't like it. I tried it a couple of times but wasn't comfortable with it. The one time when the ladies were here I looked at Archie and he had this look on his face that said, why are you doing this? On Friday when I took Archie to the vet I put it on him and asked the vet what her opinion was about them. She does not like them especially on Pugs who can have trachea problems. So I am out a bunch of money and am so very unhappy about it. Sure wish I would have known all this ahead of time but I was clueless. Now I know of a lady who trains without any collars and only charges 1/2 the price of what I paid. She works totally different from the other one. Kicking myself!

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh I am so sorry about that mess with the trainer. So many out there think "training" equals "dominance" and that is just not right. Caesar Milan has done more damage to the general public's thinking of what good training is than anything else I can think of at the moment. That is always the first question I ask a trainer - "What do you think of Milan?" If they admire him or try to copy his methods - they FLY out the door! You want someone who works from a positive, reward based perspective, who works toward communication between us and our babies, not simply control. The punishment proponents, like those who think shock or prong collars are "fine when used correctly", are nothing more than abusers in my mind. I talked to a trainer for Crys, several in fact, and they all wanted to use things like the prong or shock collars; one wanted me to put her on a 2' chain and basically jerk her into behaving...and I was ignorant enough to consider it. Then Saskia told me about Turid Rugas and her "Calming Signals" method. I bought the book by the same name and it was amazing not only how her methods worked for Crys but the things I learned about how to read her body language and behavior. Turid has a website where she answers questions and there are several YouTube presentations by her. She's in The Netherlands and I would so love to meet her! Check her out and you will have a much better idea of what good, positive training really means.

I wish you the best of luck and hope the itchies cause can be found and addressed soon.

Hugs,
Leslie

http://en.turid-rugaas.no/

http://www.amazon.com/On-Talking-Terms-With-Dogs/dp/1929242360

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj7BWxC6iVs

[goldengirl88]

Valerie:
just wanted you to know that not a day goes past that I don't think of you and Scoop, and the babies. Sorry to hear about the runs with Archie. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

Oh darn, I was hoping the poo problems were solved. Sorry to hear about the trainer issues. We had a similar experience with Koko when he was small. The trainer said "positive reinforcement" training. I had done clicker training with Zoe, so I had no idea Koko and I signed up for 3 months of tough boot camp with a mean drill sergeant.

I know how you feel.

[mcdavis]

Sorry to hear about the poo problems and also the gnawing. What you described with the gnawing reminded me of our poodle's reaction when he ate a piece of chocolate cake that I dropped. Just wondering if the two things are related and he's developed an allergy to something in his food?
Also when Hamish had poo problems with Blue the vet said that they can develop an allergy to food that they've previously been OK with.

Hoping that you can get things resolved soon.

[scoora]

So it was Blue Buffalo Hamish turned out to be allergic to?
Archie and Gus have been eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy dry food but they eat Wellness or Merrick canned food.
The last 2 days Gus seems to be pretty itchy too. Gus has poop problems off and on, too.
Just seems strange both have the same issues. Just that Archie's are worse.

[scoora]

Patti, I think of you and Tipper, too.

Addy, Thanks for telling me about your experience with a trainer. I feel like an idiot for jumping into it without finding out more but her website just made me think I was doing the right thing. I didn't even know about prong collars before this. I want to call her this week. Probably won't do any good but oh well.

Leslie, Thank you for that information. I will definitely check her out. I was thinking of buying some books (what my husband wanted me to do in the first place). I haven't told him what the vet said, yet.
I just thought this trainer used commands or something like that, not collars. I was just so stupid for jumping into this so quickly.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I just realized I called you Valerie in a post. Forgive me I am so sorry, my mind is scrambled lately, and probably just posted to Valerie and had her name in my brain. Blessings
Patti

[labblab]

Dear Vicki,

I'm so sorry that both Archie and Gus are having GI issues now. It does make you wonder if it might be worms or some sort of parasite that they've passed between them, but I'm hoping the vet took a stool sample on Friday with the plan of checking out that possibility.

Also, I so wish you could be kinder on yourself re: enlisting that first trainer. I don't think you did anything at all that was stupid, even if you decide to go an alternative route. We all make many choices by trial-and-error, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. If I had a dollar for every decision I've ended up changing, I'd be a billionaire by now!

As far as the prong (pinch) collar, I do understand why you've now decided against it, especially with your vet's warning about tracheal issues in pugs. However, it may not always be a bad choice for every dog and every situation, so I don’t think you did anything wrong by considering the option when the first trainer presented it to you.

I've attended many training classes through the years with my dogs (since I seem to need so much training myself!). Pinch collars have been offered as options at every class, so I don't think it's unusual that you found a trainer who uses them. I've used pinch collars at one time or another with all my Labs, and still use it for my youngest when we are out walking. Obviously, since I use it, I do not consider pinch collars to be abusive when they are fitted and handled properly (e.g., you do not use them to drag a dog around!). They look horrible, but unlike choke collars (which I do not think are safe), they have rings that prevent them from closing beyond a specific degree of tightening. Supposedly, when the prongs tighten, they mimic a mother dog's nip pressure at the neck of an unruly youngster. Trainers have always had me test the collar on my own arm or leg to see how it feels when tightened. When sized properly, it does not seem painful to me when "snapped" tighter on my own body, but it is indeed an attention-getting quick pressure (and for that reason I understand why you would not want to use it with a dog or breed that is vulnerable to tracheal issues).

I do not rely on the collar as an alternative to positive reinforcement for most training purposes, but when walking my dogs, literally it has saved me from being dragged into the street in front of cars or pulled down on my face on the sidewalk. I am a small person and when my 70-pound ball of energy makes a split-second decision to chase a squirrel when we're out walking, the prong collar has been a life-saver as far as interrupting the sudden lunge. So once again, I do not in any way discount your vet's warning or your own preference, and I don't doubt that a person with Saskia's skills and intuition would handle the lunging differently. But I hope people don't view me as an abuser of my dogs because I use prong collars :o. And I sure hope you find a training style that is a better match to your needs and preference. But I don't think you did anything that is stupid.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

No, you are never stupid. As the old saying goes, ignorance can be cured with education but stupid is forever. ;) We learn so we ain't stupid. :D

Do check the feed and try to find one that has different ingredient. ie if what they are eating has chicken and corn, find one that has beef and oats - change the ingredients to see if something they are eating is contributing to the itching. I had a pup who was allergic to guar gum found in most canned foods - she would get violently sick after eating it and it took me forever to pin that ingredient down. But once I did and stopped buying food that had guar gum, she didn't get sick any more.

[mcdavis]

So it was Blue Buffalo Hamish turned out to be allergic to?
Archie and Gus have been eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy dry food but they eat Wellness or Merrick canned food.
The last 2 days Gus seems to be pretty itchy too. Gus has poop problems off and on, too.
Just seems strange both have the same issues. Just that Archie's are worse.

Well, it was around the time of their recall so we were never sure if it was problems with the food or an allergy, but as soon as we changed his food he was fine.
Have you started a new bag of food? I remember reading about one brand, I think it was Orijen, that had changed the recipe and a lot of dogs had problems with the new version of the food.

[Budsters Mom]

Rosie is on Blue Buffalo Basics Salmon and Potato Formula. It is a limited ingredient feed designed for Dogs with food allergies and sensitivities. Buddy was on it too, since I seem to attract little allergic dogs! :eek:I took Rosie off of the turkey and changed to salmon when she was scratching continuously. You mentioned feeding your pups the "Wilderness Formula". That feed is not a limited ingredient or novel protein formula. It is grain free and higher in protein. If my pups were having these problems, I would want to get stool samples first to check for parasites, then consider changing the feed if the stool sample is clear.

The skin issues could definitely be food related. Mites are another possibility. They are microscopic little buggers which cause intense itching. Puppies ofter arrive with them, like Rosie did. If you examine really closely, their eggs look like small flecks of dandruff. Rosie is black, so I could spot them easier. You might want to ask your vet to check that too. I hope you get the babies sorted out soon. Poor things, poor mom. xxxxx

[scoora]

Patti-No need to apologize. I know you have a lot on your mind.

Marianne-Archie had a stool sample done about a week and a half ago. It was negative. Also, thank you for everything you said about the collars. It makes me feel better. What you said is what the trainer told me about them and she put one on my arm and showed me how it works. It did help to keep Archie from pulling too much on the leash when I took him out with it on. I just wish I would have checked into everything first so I wouldn't have wasted $410. I don't work and I haven't explained to my husband yet about what the vet said.

Leslie-I am thinking of trying a different food. They also get canned food mixed with dry. It seems like it could be tough.

This is the third bag of this kind of food that they have eaten. I don't know if I want to switch brands or try the limited ingredient formula.

Kathy-I will have to mention mites to the vet. It's funny how you described the mites. Raleigh is black and we have noticed white flakes on his back. It is in an area where he had a lump removed a year and a half ago. We figured it is dry skin.

Archie gnaws on himself sometimes that he bleeds.

Mites wouldn't have anything to do with soft stools and diarrhea, would they?

Archie has been on hamburger and rice since supper on Friday. I thought I'd see if it would make a difference not eating chicken. Today he went 3 times. They first time was the firmest but not as firm as Archie's normal used to be. Then after that each one got a bit softer.
I am going to start giving him chicken and rice and see if it is different.

If it is a food allergy, how long does it take to get out of their system? Can I expect his stools to ever get back to normal?

Thanks everyone for your help. This is so confusing and frustrating.

We live in the Lehigh Valley. They say it is one of the worse places for allergies. Raleigh has had allergies most of his life but he hasn't ever gnawed himself like Archie does.

[scoora]

A thought went through my head. Since Archie had a reaction to his rabies shot (seizure) I wonder if these currant problems could be caused by the shot?

[labblab]

It's always possible that Archie could be having some carry-over issues from the vaccination, but since Gus is having most of the same problems on-and-off, too (even though not as bad), it seems more likely to me that it is something infectious, dietary and/or environmental that is causing them. And it can sure drive you crazy trying to figure it all out!

My Peg has had soft stools off-and-on her whole life, no matter what food she is getting. And she always starts itching horribly around the end of October and it lasts until spring -- just the time of year when you'd think there wouldn't be any outdoor vegetation that would be bothering her. The only thing I can figure is that it corrsponds to the time of year when we are running the furnace and really drying out the air in the house. The dryness doesn't bother Luna at all, but Peg's skin does seem to dry out really badly during the winter. Even as I'm writing this, she's scratching the daylights out of herself over on the couch and gnawing on her leg. :(

Marianne

[scoora]

You're right Marianne. It just seemed strange that all of a sudden Archie started having these problems. I just wish it would get straightened out. It is driving me crazy. I don't like that he hasn't been getting the proper nutrition for a couple of weeks now.
Archie's itchiness seems to be worse at night and first thing in the morning.

Today I found a lump on Archie's leg and it does not look like he gnawed on himself there. My husband said it should be looked at. Great, something else to worry about. When I showed my daughter tonight she started discovering several small lumps in the same area and on his side. Geez, I can't believe something else.

[scoora]

I took Archie to the vet. He saw the other vet in the practice, not the one who has him on a bland diet and said to wait on the Benadryl. He said the lumps on Archie are hives. He talked about hot spots on Archie's back where he has been chewing on himself. I also showed him some things on Archie's lip and chin. He called them something but I don't remember what it was. He said the GI issues-immune system, skin hives, itchiness-immune system, the lip, chin thing-immune system. I mentioned the rabies shot followed by a seizure thinking could this be the cause of the skin , GI issues, the vet said immune system. He said his immune system is still trying to catch up. I said can it be helped at all. He said testosterone. He said don't get him neutered yet. He needs the testosterone.

Has anyone heard of that before?

After thinking about things, now I am worried about how bad his immune system is. All I think about is Scoop's compromised immune system. I have questions running through my head.

This vet now started Archie on Benadryl. He said he needs to be on it. He also put him on a trial prescription diet for the GI. I have a funny feeling that is not going to go over too well with Archie. He has been eating hamburger or chicken and rice for weeks. Now he has to eat this crap food. I gave him a taste on a spoon. He did not eat it. I mixed a bit into his chicken and rice and he had a hard time eating it.

He also wants to repeat a stool test in a week. He said sometimes the lab can miss the parasites.

[Mel-Tia]

Hey Vicki

I am so sorry you are having these issues with Archie, this was the last thing you needed

Hopefully you will figure out what is going on soon, I don't know anything about the immune thing he was referring to

Just wanted to send you a massive hug

Mel
Xxxxx

[scoora]

Hi Mel,
Thanks for the hug.
Sending one back to you.

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok...NutriCal is a vitamin and mineral supplement that is used when pups aren't eating well. It can help keep their strength up and keep them alive til they can eat again. It has nothing that will help control diarrhea - it is a nutrient supplement. There are other products that are the same with names like NutriStat.

SEB is Slippery Elm Bark and it can help with diarrhea. But as with all herbs, it has more than one action, or more than one thing it can do in the body, and it also has a laxative action. Marianne found it worked more as a laxative for Peg than as an antidiarrheal. So far, it has helped mine with diarrhea....but it hasn't worked as quickly in Grace as it does in Trink, Squirt or myself.

Diarrhea can have many causes and it's important to know the cause to know how to address it. If it is a simple bacteria, it's best to let the body try to handle it without intervention. If the diarrhea persists, then some mild help might be in order like an antibiotic and/or stronger herbs, even something like the Flagyl. If the diarrhea is caused from a food allergy it will continue until the allergen is found and removed from the diet. Then there are conditions like IBD and colitis that require different treatments and approaches. I haven't used and know nothing about the Fortiflora some have used other than that it is a probiotic with an antibiotic. Probiotics can be beneficial in some cases but not in all - again the cause of the diarrhea needs to be known.

I wish I had some ideas for your sweet boys but I just don't beyond what others have already said. If this is a result of the vaccines they got, I doubt you will ever get the vets to admit that but I would sure keep trying to find out if that is a real possibility and what can be done if the shots are the cause of the problems they have been having.

[labblab]

Vicki, I just posted this reply to Scoop's thread, but wanted to repeat it here since this is your thread that is focused on Archie and Gus. Leslie has given you some very useful advice above, and I hope that you'll soon get some relief for both the boys. From what you've said, though, I don't think Gus has had his rabies shot yet. So even though you are wondering if it is the culprit with Archie, we know it cannot be the cause of the GI issues with Gus.

As I wrote below, I truly don't think there is a way for your vets to know for certain whether the vaccination is the source of Archie's issues. A researcher who specializes in immunological disorders can undoubtedly identify types of abnormalities that vaccinations can trigger. But there can be other causes for these types of problems, as well. So I don't know that anybody can state with certainty, after-the-fact, that a problem like that which comes up in an individual dog was definitely caused a previous vaccination. I don't think it's a matter of them not being willing to tell you -- I don't think there's any way for them to know. So that's why I hope you don't end up focusing solely on the vaccination at the expense of other possible causes that may have a remedy.


It sounds to me as though Tipper had an acute allergic reaction to the vaccine itself, just like what happens when people who are sensitive have immediate reactions to medications, or bee stings, or eating peanuts, etc. This can certainly be life-threatening, no doubt about it, and you would want to avoid that vaccine from that point onward. But it is a time-limited reaction. I believe this is a different scenario from what you are worried about with Archie, which is instead that you are afraid the vaccination triggered a long-term abnormality in his immune system.

It is true that this can sometimes happen, and I realize you are probably doubly worried because you don't want Gus to develop problems later on after his vaccination, too. So I am not discounting your worry in any way. But I think your vet is correct that there is really no way to know whether the vaccination is the true source of Archie's current problems. I know there are websites that link vaccinations to virtually any medical problem a dog could ever experience. And since all dogs in the U.S. are theoretically required to be vaccinated against rabies, based on some of those websites, an owner could worry that any medical problem their dog ever develops must surely have been caused by the vaccination.

In Archie's case, it is definitely true that the timing makes the connection seem much more suspicious. But I don't think you will ever be able to determine for certain whether the vaccination is at fault. So I think your vet will be doing the right thing by continuing to search for alternative causes/remedies that may exist. My heart does go out to you when you see these problems in one so young. As I mentioned on your other thread, my own Peg started exhibiting severe seasonal allergies before she was even four months old. Since they only manifest during the winter and she is perfectly fine in the summer, we know they are not food-related or medication-related. And my other dog, Luna, had extended episodes of diarrhea on-and-off during her first nine months, no matter what food we had her on. Fortunately, that finally straightened out for her all by itself (although we did find at one time she had worms which we had to eradicate) and now she seems to have an iron stomach! So even though Archie's allergies may be more of a long-term issue, I'm hoping that his GI problems will ultimately resolve -- and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Marianne

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

I am so sorry that your babies are still having issues. I had hoped that their tummies would have settled by now. :o The itching thing can be very difficult to pin down also. There are numerous things than can cause severe itching. Allergies, mites, and foods sensitivities to name a few. Yes, some of Archie's issues could be related to his rabies shot, but there's no way to know for sure. Gus hasn't had his immunization and he's having some of the same issues also, although less severe.

As far as Archie's seizure following his rabies shot, I agree that it's very suspicious and I would not be able to let that go without following up myself. I would have definitely gotten the manufacturer's name (from the vet) and contacted them. I realize that your vet said that they contacted the manufacturer already, but I would want to ask my own questions firsthand, but that's me. I tend to not want to stop until I get my questions answered from those who know the facts. I can be a real pain in the butt sometimes. ;)

SEB - Slippery Elm Bark - did wonders for Buddy. It settled his stomach when nothing else worked. I did not use it for diarrhea. I used it to coat Buddy's stomach because the meds tore up his stomach so bad that he couldn't settle to sleep. Buddy had many allergies, so I was reluctant to try it, but he had no problem with it.

I hope you get some answers soon, so you can help your sweet boys. Xxxx

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

Sorry, I don't know if Metronidazole is safe for puppies or what the dosage would be. Maybe someone will drop in and help you out with that. I would check with the vet before giving it to Archie anyway. His poor little body has been through so much.:o xxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
The vet is the one who said to give Archie the Metronidazole but I saw on ehow.com that it shouldn't be given to puppies.
He has been through so much with all of this. It is making my head spin. It breaks my heart.

What kind of questions would you ask the vaccine manufacturer?

Archie has been on Benadryl for 6 days. It didn't seem to cause any drowsiness. His itchiness seems a bit better(knock on wood). He still goes after himself sometimes but not as bad. Last week the vet sent Archie home with some Metronidazole and said use if needed. Today I talked to someone at the vet's office and told her Archie had a bout of diarrhea Sunday night and Monday night. She said get him started on the Metronidazole. I gave him 1/2 a pill at supper. He fell asleep after supper and he has been so out of it since then. I looked up side effects of Metronidazole to see if it could cause drowsiness and I saw that it said to not give to puppies.


Has anyone heard this before?

What is going to happen if this diarrhea doesn't stop?

Today is the first day Archie is strictly on the prescription Iams diet. The lady vet he sees said she doesn't want him on that very long. I feel like we are getting nowhere.

[scoora]

Leslie, Thank you very much for all the information. That is very helpful.

[scoora]

Marianne, Thanks. No, Gus had not had his rabies shot yet. We are waiting till he is 6 months old. Wish we would have waited till Archie was 6 months old.
I know you're right when you said there is no way to tell if the rabies shot caused these problems. The whole thing just seems so strange. This has been going on for 3 1/2 weeks with the diarrhea. I'm going along with what the vets are suggesting to do. It seems like the 2 vets have different opinions.

Do you know if anything can be done if the diarrhea issues are a long-term abnormality with his immune system? Boy, it scares the heck out of me.

[scoora]

I don't think I mentioned that I took Archie to the vet last Friday. There is a lump on his left eye lid. I had the vet check it out. She said there is one on the right one too. It's not as noticeable. She didn't know what they were.

She also said she does not want Archie on this prescription diet very long. The other vet put him on it.
She also did skin scraping of his lesions. The test for mites was negative and the test for, is it ringworm?, could take up to 2 weeks.

Another thing that has changed with Archie is his water consumption. He hardly drinks water at all any more. When Raleigh or Gus would be getting a drink Archie would be right there with them getting a drink. There were plenty of times he would get a drink even when the others didn't. Now he takes 1 or 2 little drinks a day. Last week when I said something to the vet he said he is getting plenty of water in his food, which last week was chicken and rice. Just makes me wonder why that has changed.


The lump by his eye has not gotten any better and I'm worried so we might make a trip to the vet. The man vet wants another stool sample done. He said the lab can miss parasites so he likes to do a couple of them. He also wants me to get an antibiotic for Archie's skin. I read that puppies shouldn't be on antibiotics because of their immune systems. Archie's already had antibiotics twice plus I person I spoke to at the vet's today about the Metronidazole said it has antibiotic in it. UGH!

Gus is doing good. His bouts with diarrhea usually don't last long. Right now it is pretty good.
His itching hasn't been a problem either.

[molly muffin]

Oh my goodness. If it isn't one thing it seems to be another. I'm hoping that some of this stuff they will outgrow as they get older. Puppies go through a lot it seems and maybe it is just taking a bit for the immune system to get caught up. Well, one can hope right.

You're doing good Vicki, trying to stay on top of all of this. It must be quite overwhelming and confusing trying to make head or tails out of what should be done to help these issues.

Hang in there.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Hi Sharlene,
Yes, it is overwhelming and confusing. Right now Archie is on Iams prescription diet, Intestinal Plus(formerly Low Residue),FortiFlora, Benadryl and Metronidazole. I just don't understand why he started with these problems all around the same time. His stools were so good before. Always nice and firm. The one vet did say the same thing you did. His immune system is trying to catch up. I sure hope it does and these problems go away.

Archie's results from his stool sample and urine test were both good. So we wait to see if the Metronidazole and the diet help him.
The vet said on Wednesday not to worry about the lump above Archie's eye. I can't help but worry because it is more noticeable than last week.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,
I am sorry that I haven't gotten back to you sooner. I have been reading posts, but haven't been responding much lately.

You asked what questions I would ask the manufacturer of the rabies vaccine. I don't believe EVERYTHING I am told. I work special ED and the common language is lying, so I question EVERYTHING. Your vet said that he reported Archie's seizure to the manufacturer. Do you have any proof? Did your vet give you a form or copy of that correspondence? I would insist on reporting myself, so that I could be sure that the seizure actually was reported. I would ask how common seizures are following rabies immunizations. I would ask about other symptoms/side effects that have been reported and how often they occur. I would ask if there was a fund to help cover the medical expenses that occured as a result of vaccination side effects. I would ask about the dosage size for a small breed dog, since it's the same regardless of size. Basically, I would ask for clarification of anything I was unsure about and study links to research further. xxxxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
I haven't been here for a couple of days. Thanks for your response.
Those are great questions to ask. Once the holidays are over I'll see about calling.
Hope you and Rosie have a nice Christmas.

[scoora]

Merry Christmas everyone.

[scoora]

Archie has several issues and one I haven't mentioned is he sprays in the house. I told the vet about it and he said it is a behavior problem and when I catch him doing it I should pick him up and yell NO, then try to take him outside. Most of the time I don't catch him doing it but I know it is him. It has been getting worse. If anyone has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate hearing them. I don't know what to do.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

Regarding the peeing in the house..... You have it harder because you have three, including one other pup. Archie may need to be leashed and with you (or someone) whenever he's in the house. When someone can't be right there, a small crate can be helpful. They tend not to want to soil their dens, so crate training can be very effective. Take him out often and encourage him to pee, then over praise him. Make him feel wonderful when he's successful. You mentioned his other health issues. Could he possibly have a UTI or other issue that is making it difficult to hold his urine? How long has this been going on. If from the beginning, he may never have fully gotten the idea of where it's appropriate to relieve himself, so you might have to start again at the beginning with the basics. I'm sure others will be along with more suggestions. I am sorry you are having these problems. Xxxxx

[scoora]

Kathy, I'll answer you about the spraying next time. I don't have much time right now.

I have another question. Archie does not drink much water. This started around the time he started with the diarrhea. The last time at the vets I mentioned it. The vet said he's getting enough water in his food. Lately I only see Archie drink maybe once a day and it's not a lot. All this stuff is really driving me crazy and worrying me! Any suggestions?

[Budsters Mom]

You might be able to entice him to drink more by offering him a little diluted chicken broth (mostly water) a few times a day. He might not like it cold. Try warming it to room temperature. Does he like ice cubes? Rosie loves them. She comes running whenever she hears the freezer door open. Buddy wouldn't touch them. You could try that. Filling Kongs and freezing them is good too. Does it seem like he's not getting enough fluids because our Cush babies drink a ton of water? Rosie drinks like a camel. She'll drink a lot, then not for several hours. I think they are all different. Did the vet say that Archie appeared dehydrated? You certainly have your hands full. xxxxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
Thanks for the suggestions. I will give them a try tomorrow.
I'll talk about the spraying another time. I am getting worried about his lack of drinking. He saw the vet a couple of weeks ago. The vet said at that time he was not dehydrated. He told me he is not worried because he eats canned food which has water in it. This started back around the time when he started with the diarrhea weeks ago. Everything all around the same time.
He hacks like there is something in his throat. He just did it a few minutes ago and he did it a couple of times. It sounds horrible. Scares the crap out of me. He made that sound right before he had his seizure. I sure wish I knew what the heck is going on with him. I worry so much about him. There is just so much going on.
Before all this started whenever Gus or Raleigh would get a drink, Archie would get a drink with them. I have tried to give him water out of my cup but he won't drink any. It's just so strange how it changed when he started having all these other issues.

[scoora]

Kathy,
Thanks for answering me.
Regarding Archie's peeing, he goes out many, many times. He lifts his leg so many times and sometimes nothing comes out. He can go in the house and in no time he sprays. A lot of the times it's in the area where Raleigh is. He doesn't do it everyday. He had accidents in the house where would pee when he was younger but now it's just spraying. A couple of weeks ago when he was at the vet, they checked a stool sample and a urine sample. The vet told me it's a behavior problem. I don't remember exactly when it started but it was somewhere around the time everything else went wacky.
Archie and Gus each have their own crates and they go in there when we go out. He has not had an accident in there. He can also hold it at night. Last night before we went to bed he went to the door. He had to go out. When he had diarrhea he would go to the door so he knows to go out. Just so many issues.

[scoora]

Kathy,
I tried putting beef broth in some water for Archie. He just sniffed it and didn't drink any. I didn't want to use chicken broth because I still have the thought that he might be allergic to chicken.
He did lick an ice cube and tried to bite it.

Hope you're feeling better!

[Budsters Mom]

Here is the million dollar question? ARE ARCHIE AND RALEIGH NEUTERED? If not, I would bet that the spraying problem is a guy thing and neutering Archie would definitely help. Intact males have a very high level of testosterone and have a very strong need to mark their territory. That would make sense that he'd feel the need to mark in the area that Raleigh is. Hopefully others will chime in on this, but that's my theory. I have seen it before. If both are neutered, then that blows my theory.

[Budsters Mom]

Yes, stay away from the chicken broth if you suspect an allergy. Archie doesn't need more issues. Poor little thing. Xxxx

[scoora]

Kathy,
Raleigh is neutered, Archie is not.
I asked the vets if neutering Archie would help the spraying and they both said NO. Just the other night I read on Veterinary Partners website that it would help. I was thinking after the holidays were over that Archie would get neutered but the one vet thinks we should wait. He said that the issues Archie is having are because his immune system hasn't matured. I think the rabies shot played havoc with his immune system. The vet says to wait on the neutering to help his immune system. I didn't know testosterone had anything to do with the immune system. Archie will be 7 months old on Jan. 6so there isn't a rush for getting him neutered.

[Budsters Mom]

When I was growing up, we had a male dog named Spot. He was intact. We ended up taking another intact male dog in because the owner was being transferred oversees and couldn't take him. Spot had been housebroken for many years and started spraying in the house after Snoopy arrived. We finally had to rehome Snoopy. Neutering wasn't routinely done in those days.

I am not a vet, but I still think Archie's spraying is tied up with marking. As far as neutering now, Archie has other health concerns that do need to be considered, as neutering is surgery. He does have a weakened immune system. I agree with your vet on that one. Xxxx

[molly muffin]

Happy New Year Vicki- Raleigh, Archie and Gus and Angel Scoop

I hope this year is a better one than last year.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Thanks Kathy and Sharlene.

Happy New Year to you both and your families.

[Renee]

Popping in to give some of my humble advice. As you might know, I do pug rescue and have for years. :)

Pugs are funny little creatures, and have many quirks!

I definitely recommend getting Archie neutered as soon as you can, when its safe for him. As he is 7 months now, his hormones are really going to start coming in, and the marking could get worse. Pugs are notorious for this, and it is sadly one of the biggest reasons we get male pugs surrendered. The sooner the better too, so you can stop him ahead of the game from developing any humping habits. We usually neuter pugs between 6 and 9 months, if we can. I think a lot of vets don't really care about spay/neuter, especially some long-time vets.

That said, you might try an immune boosting supplement to help build up his immune system. B Naturals makes a good one.

Dogs that are fed raw, dehydrated, or even canned foods usually drink much less because they are not working to rehydrate their bodies from the dry kibble. Unless he is showing signs of dehydration, I would probably not worry too much. You can add more water to his food before serving it, which will force him to drink the water as he eats the food.

Pugs can be quite sensitive to vaccinations, and many pug owners will administer a benedryl before getting shots. My own pugs have had reactions too, so I really feel for your guy on this one.

Also, he is quite young... but, you might have his soft palette & trachea looked at, if he seems to be hacking or having trouble breathing.

[scoora]

Renee,
I appreciate your advise. Thank you.
I sent you a visitors message.

[scoora]

I took Archie to the vet's on Friday. I had a lot of questions and I wanted a bump on his head checked out and the Pustules on his face have gotten worse. It has been bugging me ever since he had blood work done after his seizure and his white blood cell count was high. Then with all his problems I have been wondering about his count. The vet did a complete blood work.
His total WBC count has gone up even more. The Lymphocytes have come down slightly but are still high and the Monocytes are high.
Creatinine Kinase is high 380 Ref Range 10-200 U/L
Glucose is high 115 63-114 mg/dl
Calcium is high 11.3 8.8-11.2 mg/dl
Phosphorus is high 7.9 2.5-6.1 mg/dl
TCO2(Bicarbonate) is high 30 13-27 mmol/L
Chloride is low 107 108-119 mmol/L
WBC is high 19.6 4.9-17.6 K/uL
Lymphocyte is high 7644 1060-4950 /uL
Monocyte is high 1764 130-1150 /uL

The vet doesn't know why his count is up so she wants me to take Archie to see an IMS.
I am so scared.

[molly muffin]

Oh no Vicki! Poor little Archie. I wonder what on earth is going on with him. Maybe some of the others will have some idea. I wonder if there is an infection somewhere.
hopefully the IMS can figure out what is going on.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Budsters Mom]

I am so sorry Vicki. All of this has been going on much to long with Archie. I'm glad you had his bloodwork done. Some of the numbers could indicate an infection somewhere, particularly with the pustules on his face. Has he been on antibiotics, I don't remember. I hope the IMS can get it figured out. Poor Archie. He is still just a baby. :o xxxx

[Renee]

I was thinking it could be a liver shunt, because some of his symptoms could be attributed to that, but... the bloodwork doesn't really support a liver shunt.

An IMS is a good idea.

Wish I had more to offer. But I will be sending my strongest puggie vibes that Archie is okay, and if they find anything, that it will be easily managed.

[labblab]

Oh Vicki, I am so sorry that Archie continues to have these problems. At this point, though, I do think it is a good idea to take him to see the IMS, both for Archie's health and for your own peace of mind. Being the supreme worrier that I am myself, I know what a toll it takes when you just don't know what is happening. Hopefully the IMS will be able to shed some light on things and organize a treatment plan that will start setting things right again for Archie. Please let us know as soon as you find out anything.

Sending tons of hugs,
Marianne

[scoora]

This whole thing is just really getting to me. Today I screamed. Archie would not eat his dog food at lunch time. Between the diarrhea, him having to see an IMS and then not wanting to eat at lunch just reminded me of what Scoop went through. It was around this time last year that Scoop became picky with his eating. Archie did eat the food for his supper but he has never been like this before. He would always be so anxious for his food. Jumping at the kitchen cabinet. This is driving me crazy with worry.

Does anyone have pet insurance?
If so, what company?

I had been wanting to check into it since Archie and Gus came here but looking at everything just seemed so overwhelming that I procrastinated. Now I wish I would have taken it out right from the beginning. I never thought this would be happening to Archie at such a young age. I just thought I had time to do that.

Kathy, Archie was on antibiotics when we first got him for his kennel cough and then again the day he had his seizure they did blood work at the emergency hospital and his white count was up so she put him on an antibiotic in case he had an infection but it didn't make a difference in his white count because it was checked after he was done with the antibiotics. The vet said something about antibiotics for the pustules but then didn't put him on it. She also said he could go on antibiotics for Lyme disease just in case but he was tested for Lyme disease on Friday and it was negative.

Would antibiotics be bad for his immune system?

The one vet thinks all of Archie's problems are because his immune system, as he put it, has not caught up yet. That it needs time but that wouldn't be why his blood work is off, right?

Marianne, I am a supreme worrier myself.

Thanks everyone for your support and caring.

[Budsters Mom]

Oh Vicki, none of this us fair. Archie should be running, pouncing and playing like other pups his age. I hope you are able to get him in to see an IMS soon. Sorry, I don't have health insurance, so I can't help with that. Archie has something going on, that's for sure. He needs to see someone who can figure it all out. I know that you are worried. I would be too. xxxx

[Mel-Tia]

Hey Vicki.

So sorry to read Archie is still having issues, I know nothing about the tests or insurance over there so just popping in to give you a big hug

Mel
Xxxxx

[scoora]

Kathy, There are days when Archie and Gus run around pretty much, like yesterday. Now this morning it is opposite. They played a bit but then Archie laid on my lap for a bit then played a bit. Both are sleeping now. Not energetic like yesterday.
I should be talking to his vet today or tomorrow. She only works Thursdays and Fridays. She called me from home on Monday with the test results and those were given to her over the phone from the vet's office. I told the office manager the other day to have the lab look at his blood on a slide or whatever it is they do. They did it last time he had it checked and the lab said they felt his white count was up because of his rabies shot. I should hear the results today or tomorrow.

I am just so worried about all of this.

Mel, So nice to hear from you. I hope you are well. Is Boyce doing OK?
I think about you lots. Hugs

[Bo's Mom]

Vicki,
Thinking about you and hoping that little Archie is all better soon. ((((HUGS))))

[scoora]

Belinda, Thank you.

[Budsters Mom]

Vicki,
How is Archie doing? have you taken him to the IMS yet? xxxx

[scoora]

Lately Archie has been giving me a hard time with eating his dog food. At first I thought it was because he was on the prescription diet and he was getting tired of it. I started switching him over to Gus' food and I couldn't mix the two slowly because he refused to eat the prescription food at all. Then he got picky with the puppy food. I tried different ones. It all reminded me of how Scoop was with his eating. It is so hard. Tonight for supper I gave him a food he had eaten the other day. He wouldn't eat it. I opened another kind and he started eating that one. He wanted more so I gave him more. This evening he started smacking his lips and I wondered if his tummy was bothering him. All of a sudden he vomited twice and two big piles. A couple hours later I took him out and he pooped. It wasn't a lot but it was smelly. What is going on with my Archie!

[Budsters Mom]

The food thing is very hard when you have three. With one, they will usually eventually eat whatever you give them when they get hungry enough. With three, staying on an RX diet is hard because they smell different food and want that. You did cut out Archie's snacks, didn't you? If he's not getting any treats, he's bound to be hungrier. That means nobody gets any treats. I know that sucks, but Archie knows if he's missing out on something. I hope you're able to get him to the IMS soon. He needs to be seen with a new perspective. Poor little guy. Xxxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
We must have been writing at the same time.
I had the lab do a pathology review on Archie's blood. The vet called me Friday and she said they didn't find anything. I have a copy of the review but boy I sure don't understand what it says. At the end they say about Monocytosis and what could cause it. The whole thing is confusing. The vet says that the pathologist didn't find anything but I said there is something going on. She didn't think it was urgent to see the IMS. I want to get him there. This is so worrisome. I want to call tomorrow and get an appointment for next week. The vet thinks it will be OK. I took insurance on Archie and Gus. I know it won't pay for pre-existing conditions but you never know what comes up. The insurance starts on the 21st. So I was thinking of going then but after tonight I am not sure about what to do.
He was getting some treats made with the prescription food. I baked some and gave him some frozen. I just started giving him some Puppy treats and carrots.

I was wondering if I should call the vet tomorrow and tell them about the vomiting.

[Budsters Mom]

The vomiting might just be due to the fact that you have been switching foods, but it won't hurt to let the vet know. If it continues, then definitely alert the vet. I would want an IMS to see Archie if he was my dog, for peace of mind, if nothing else.

Please post the pathology report, high and lows. We have a few people who can interpret that stuff. Sorry, it's not me, but others can. It could help.

I am so sorry to hear that Archie is still having trouble. :o xxxxx

[scoora]

Kathy,
The vet said that she is sending Archie to the IMS for me. She knows how worried I am. She doesn't seem to be but Archie is my puppy and I see how he changed and I love him with all my heart. I need peace of mind which I am afraid I may never have. I hope I will but I am such a worrywart. I posted the blood work highs and lows on 1/7. The pathologist report is a written report. I'll see if I can write it in a day or two. It is pretty long. I want to google some of the tings on it right now.

Thanks for being here.
Hugs to you and Rosie.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so sorry you have not found out how to get Archie turned around with his health issues. I know this has to be heart breaking for you after all you have been thru. I applaud you for now taking up the fight for Archie, you have more strength than you gave yourself credit for. Thank you for always looking in on my Tipper. She must undergo 3 specialists on Wednesday so please pray for her. Blessings
Patti

[Mel-Tia]

Hey Vicki

Just wondering how you and the little guys are? Hoping Archie is feeling better?

Big hug

Mel
Xxxxx

[scoora]

Hey Vicki

Just wondering how you and the little guys are? Hoping Archie is feeling better?

Big hug

Mel
Xxxxx
Hi Mel,

Great to hear from you. Hope you are well. Thanks for checking on Archie. He has not had diarrhea(knock on wood) for weeks now. Once in a while, usually at least once a day he has some soft stools. He still itches but not to the point where he is getting hot spots(knock on wood). I asked the vet how long to keep him on Benadryl. She said as long as he is itching. She said it's good the Benadryl is helping because the next step would be steroids. It gets me that they don't want to try to find out what the problem is, just give pills. She knows how I feel about steroids. There are times, like this morning where he seems more tired. He hardly played this morning.

He is giving me such a hard time with eating. A Pug puppy should not be so picky. Gus will eat anything. I don't know what food to give Archie any more. One meal he will he a certain food, the next meal he won't eat that same food. It is so frustrating. Sometimes I think he isn't eating enough. This morning he ate some of this one food then when I tried to give him more of it he refused to eat more.

We have an appointment with the IMS on Tuesday 1/21/14.
Never would I have thought I would be going through this with a 7 month old puppy. I love him so much. It is so frustrating that this is happening.

I keep wondering if he should see a holistic vet. I don't know.
Any thoughts on Holistic vets?
Take care.
Hugs

[labblab]

Hi Vicki,

Since it seems as though your most serious medical worry with Archie right now relates to the abnormal blood counts, if it were me, I would stick with the regular IMS for this first consultation. That is an area that the IMS ought to be highly knowledgeable about.

Marianne

[scoora]

Thanks Marianne,

I will stick with the IMS. I was thinking about a holistic vet along with the IMS. I read stuff about detoxing(rabies shot) and diets and supplements and just wonder if stuff like that would help. I hope to ask the IMS about it if my mind doesn't totally forget. I have a list of things to ask.

[Doccy]

Hey Vicki,
I'm glad Archie is doing better. Good luck on the 21st!! I will be thinking of you guys. I think the holistic vet in conjunction with the IMS would be good. While I like holistic vets, some (not all) will push lots of herbs (and they can be very expensive). Make sure you do your research on anything they suggest. I found it to be a bit overwhelming with Doc. One thing I like about them is the openness for acupuncture and massage, etc. Consequently, I have stopped giving Chinese herbs to Doc because they started giving him diarrhea. I'm sending good vibes your way!! BTW, I tried to respond to your last private message but it wouldn't send it because it said your box was at it's limit. ;)

[scoora]

Jessica, Thank you

Sorry about my private message box being full. I'm having a hard time getting rid of the messages because they were about Scoop.

[Budsters Mom]

Vicki,
You can copy the messages about Scoop and paste them someone else, like a word document or notes. That is what I have done with many of Buddy's messages. I then was able to delete those PM messages to free up space in my inbox/sent items boxes. I still have the messages, where I can go back and read them anytime. Just a thought...... Xxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
Thanks for the suggestion but I don't know about stuff like that. I am not good with computers. I wouldn't know where to start.

[Doccy]

Vicki--Doc and I are thinking of you and Archie for tomorrow.

[Mel-Tia]

Just popping in to let you know I will be thinking of you tomorrow. I hope you get some answers and peace of mind. I don't really know anything about holistic vets so can't really comment on that

Me and Boyce are doing ok, work is tough but isn't it always.

Will be looking out for your update.

Big hug

Mel
Xxx

[molly muffin]

Crossing fingers for some answers tomorrow. :)

hugs
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Thanks everyone. Hope the appointment doesn't get postponed. We are supposed to get snow.

Archie has me so worried. He did not eat any supper tonight. I gave him the same kind of food for supper that he ate for breakfast. I tried a different one and he wouldn't eat that either. He sniffs at it and walks away. This has me so scared. I have tried so many of the better brands of dry and canned. It's a roller coaster. I don't know what to do. It makes me so angry that this is happening to my 7 month old sweetie, Archie. He's still a baby. I love him so much this is breaking my heart.
He has changed in other ways.

[Renee]

Vicki, I would be scared too. I know we talked about him possibly just being stubborn and 'training you'... but, if he has other changes too, then it really may be something else. I am so sorry this is happening. :(

I hope the IMS can be helpful, and I look forward to hearing how the appointment goes.

[scoora]

We saw the IMS today. She is not concerned about his white blood cell count, at least not right now. She wants to see if any of his problems have anything to do with food intolerance. She wants to try a venison and potato prescription diet. I told her I don't know if he will eat it. She said then I could home cook. She stopped the Benadryl. I told her the vet said if the Benadryl wouldn't work then steroids would be next. The IMS said NO next would be to see a dermatologist. So if his itchiness comes back she said to schedule an appointment with one. She did 2 tests that the results could take a week to get back. I don't understand what they are but on the discharge paper it says Fast Panel PCR and Giardia Eliza. Has anyone heard of them? She said if the results are negative and Archie's appetite is still waning then an abdominal ultrasound is warranted. She also said if no medical abnormalities are found to consider a consult with a behaviorist for Archie and Gus. She thinks there could be a problem there.
So don't know much right now.

[Doccy]

HI Vicki,
Sorry no quick answers! Crossing fingers on the blood tests. I don't know what either of those things are, hopefully someone on these boards has experience. Did he eat the venison and potato? I'm so sorry you are having these problems with such a young pup. But, he is lucky that he has you. I'm keeping you in my thoughts and hoping that you all are staying warm and safe.

Hugs!

[Squirt's Mom]

The FastPanel® PCR Canine GI Profile tests for nine infectious agents by real-time polymerase chain reaction (PCR): Campylobacter coli, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridium difficile toxins A/B, Clostridium perfringens enterotoxin, Cryptosporidium spp., Giardia spp., Salmonella spp., canine enteric coronavirus and canine parvovirus. The FastPanel® PCR Feline GI Profile tests for Tritrichomonas foetus, Campylobacter coli, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridium difficile toxins A/B, Clostridium perfringens enterotoxin, Crytoptosporidium felis, Cryptosporidium spp., Giardia spp., Salmonella spp. and feline parvovirus, also known as feline panleukopenia virus.

http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/Main/AntechNews/14.aspx


Alexon Giardia Monoclonal Antigen Capture Enzyme-linked Immunosorbent Assay (ELISA) is a fecal procedure designed to detect a Giardia specific antigen. This procedure is done in parallel with a double centrifugation concentration flotation procedure for Giardia cysts and any other parasites that may be present in the fecal sample.

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/sects/Paras/tests/giardia.cfm

So those two tests are looking for parasites and infections in the digestive tract that would cause diarrhea and loss of appetite.

[Renee]

If you need advice on home cooking, even just for a short stint, let me know. I really hope the bloodwork comes up with something treatable so you can move forward.

A behaviorist is not a bad idea.... but, they can do damage if you get a bad one. Not sure I would rule out something medical just yet though.

[scoora]

Leslie, Thanks. I sent you a PM

Renee, I could use some advise on home cooking. I don't think this prescription diet is going to work with Archie. The IMS said I could home cook but she would like it to be limited like the venison and potato. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Have you had any dealings with Pug Dog Encephalitis?
The IMS has mentioned it a few times because of his seizure and his personality changes. I talked to her on the phone this morning and she asked how attached I am to Archie. She's not confident she will be able to solve his eating problem. She told me that about Scoop too. I love him so much and this is breaking my heart. I don't want to lose him. Financially I can't afford this but I don' t want to give him up. She said that maybe the pet shop would take him back or about a rescue. My heart is breaking so much right now! I know Patti wants one of these too. Anybody have a money tree or a miracle in their pocket? I looked for those things for Scoop too but never found any.

[Budsters Mom]

I am so sorry Vicki. :o. ((((((HUGS))))))

[Renee]

Sent you a PM Vicki.

[labblab]

Vicki, I had not heard of Pug Dog Encephalitis before. Now, upon reading about it, I am so worried for Archie and for you. I am so, so sorry to know this is possibility. Please know we are here to listen as you think things through.

Sending huge hugs,
Marianne

[scoora]

I heard from the IMS yesterday. All of Archie's test results were negative. We are trying a venison and potato diet. He eats some but not enough. I tried to buy venison. It is not that easy to find and is quite expensive for what I did find. He eats the cooked venison.
The next step is an ultra sound with the IMS. Not sure just when yet.

[Renee]

I heard from the IMS yesterday. All of Archie's test results were negative. We are trying a venison and potato diet. He eats some but not enough. I tried to buy venison. It is not that easy to find and is quite expensive for what I did find. He eats the cooked venison.
The next step is an ultra sound with the IMS. Not sure just when yet.

Can you try a different novel protein? Like duck? Or lamb? Or buffalo?

[Budsters Mom]

What about Salmon or Whitefish and potatoes?

[scoora]

Things are not going well around here.
I am so stressed.
Just venting.

[Budsters Mom]

I am so sorry Vicki. xxxxx

[molly muffin]

So sorry to hear that things haven't improved :(

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am so sorry. I wish I could help some how. I hope things get better. Blessings
Patti

[Budsters Mom]

Sending hugs and hoping Archie is doing a little better. Xxxx

[scoora]

Sharlene, Patti, Kathy,
Thanks so much for thinking of us.
I'm having a hard time right now. There's is just so much right now. There are times when Archie and Gus really go at each other. I mean bad. Then a few minutes later they are buddies. Then what's all going on with Archie has me stressed. Things I want to do for them but money is tight. My mind is so jumbled right now.
Hugs

[Budsters Mom]

No, that doesn't sound good at all. I am sorry.:o You have two intact males who's hormones are raging. You might need to keep them separated until you can get them neutered. Even then, you may need to still monitor them closely. When dogs get used to fighting and challenging each other, it can be a hard cycle to break. xxxxx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I was thinking of you today and wondering how things are going with Archie? I hope things are better for your sake. I am so sorry you have to be going thru illness with a dog again so soon. It just seems wrong this happened to you. These boys have the best mom so I know you will so what ever you can to help Archie, it just makes me feel bad for you to go thru this. Know that I think of you and Scoop often. Tipper is not well. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Patti, I'm sorry Tipper is not well.

Archie had his ultra sound done today. The IMS said she didn't see anything unusual on the US. She said when Archie gets neutered they could do it at the referral center and scope him to look inside but she didn't see anything on the US to make her think there is a problem.

When Archie saw the IMS in January she noticed a histiocytoma on his muzzle. He now has so many of them on both sides and one on his butt.

He will be going off his venison and potato diet. Hopefully I can find something he will eat. He didn't take a drink of water in a couple of days but I had been adding warm water to his food. After supper tonight Archie and Gus ran around and soon after that Archie went to the water dish 4 times. I was happy to see that.
He eats frozen carrots, baby carrots, and frozen blueberries so he gets moisture from them.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

How are your boys doing? Is Archir any better? Thinking of you. Xxxxxx

[scoora]

Hi Kathy, Thanks for asking.
No, things have not gotten any better. Archie has gotten even pickier with food, treats, doesn't drink much water.
I have a couple things I want to post and get opinions on but I have to do that later.
Hope everything is good for you.

Another thing with Archie. He keeps getting more Histiocytomas. He has so many on his face and one on his butt.

[Budsters Mom]

I am so very sorry to hear this news Vicki. I was hoping that things had gotten better for you and Archie. Xxxxxx

[scoora]

Weeks ago I talked to someone at the company that makes the rabies vaccine. She couldn't be of much help with my questions and then I asked about a fund for any compensation. She said have the emergency hospital where I took Archie when he had his seizure and his regular vet fax them info. I heard from them. They are willing to pay the cost of the emergency visit which is $362 but I have to sign off and can't make any claims in the future if something comes up. They said seizures aren't something they see as a reaction after a vaccination but because it happened the next day they would pay the bill just for customer relations. They said the itching and diarrhea were almost a month later and that wasn't from the shot.

What is your opinion about this? Would you take the money and sign off?

There was something else I wanted to get opinions on but I can't remember what it was right now.

Archie had blood work done on Thursday. I have those results but the vet hasn't called me about them yet. His white blood cell count is still in the high range but it did come down a bit. His reticulocyte count went up into the high range since his last test and his T4 went down into the low range. I will post the numbers another time.

He then had bile acid and blood ammonia tests done on Friday. I don't have those results yet.

[Budsters Mom]

I am not ignoring you Vicki. I just don't have the enough information to advise you. This is a legal matter that I am not equipped to answer. I am glad that you did contact the company which makes the vaccine. I was hoping you would. At least they have offered to pay something. Whether you should take it and release them from all liability, I don't know. I don't know if there's any way to really prove that rabies shot caused Archie's problems. I am so sorry that this drama continues for you and poor Archie. I wish I could be of more help. Xxxxx

[scoora]

Kathy,
That's alright. I don't expect anyone to decide for me. I just wondered what anyone else would do. The vet at the company says rabies vaccine doesn't cause these problems but who knows for sure. Different things that people say on the internet lead you to believe it could be but who knows? I just don't know if I want to sign off for $362. Not that I couldn't use the money. I'm just afraid to do it.

His food pickiness has gotten really bad. The IMS says she doesn't know of a reason why he's like that.

His bile acid and blood ammonia are in the normal range. I called the IMS about his blood work and one of the nurses called me back and told me that the IMS is not concerned about his levels the way they are right now. She said I should have his urine checked in 2-4 weeks. Crystals showed up in the test. She said I could have the special test done for the thyroid since his T4 was low but she's not concerned about it and I could have his reticulocytes checked again.
I have to post the numbers when I come on here when I have more time.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
How are things on going with Archie? I am so sorry you are going thru this. Are there any healthy brogan out there? I am sure wondering. Lucky for Archie he ended up with you, as someone else may not want to deal with all this, so he is
lucky. How is Raleigh doing? Tipper has certainly presented me with many challenges? I am trying to keep on things so she continues to feel OK and have a good quality of life.. It has worn me down at times, but I love it it her more than anything so I continue on. It snowed again last nite and the sun is shining brightly. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Patti, You have done a great job with Tipper. She is lucky to have you.
I have wondered if Archie would have been with someone else if maybe things might not have gone in this direction for him. Maybe I screwed up and didn't do something right somewhere along the way. It is so frustrating. I want to help him and I don't know what to do. His regular vet and the IMS both say to take him to a nutritionist. We would have to go to U. of Pa. Then what if he doesn't eat the diet?
Archie is such a lovey dovey. I was sitting on the loveseat earlier and crying a bit. He came over to me and gave me so many kisses in my ear.

Archie seems to be a bit aggressive with Gus. Gus goes after Archie lots of times and bites his neck or tail or leg. When Archie goes after Gus it is not when Gus is bothering him. Just not sure what's going on there.

Archie vomited Thursday and Friday mornings. So on Friday I decided to have his weight checked. We went to the regular vet first. He was 20.4 lbs. a week before that and on Friday he weighed 20.0 lbs. He then went and pooped on the waiting room floor so I weighed him again and he went down to 19.6 lbs. I then took him to Valley Central where his IMS is and asked them to weigh him on the scale in the back that he had been weighed on the two times he had been there. On 1/21 he weighed 19.3 lbs., on 2/14 he weighed 19.6 lbs. and on Friday he weighed 18.5 lbs. I am so worried about Archie.

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki,

I don't think you did anything at all that anyone else wouldn't have done. You followed all the normal steps and procedures and Archie just has some intestinal issues it sounds like. That is probably what I would be concentrating on at this point, trying to find a good balanced diet for him that works. I'd probably try some various proteins to see if any work better than others. If there is some place that you could get him tested for food sensitivities and any other possible allergies, that might be worth pursuing.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Hi Sharlene,
I am going to make some pork for Archie tomorrow. He eats venison, hamburger, steak, London Broil and a bit of chicken. He has also eaten some salmon. We have a dermatologist near by who does testing. I talked to someone recently who took his dog there. He said you can drop a thousand dollars in a blink of an eye there with the testing.

Do you think food sensitivities could keep Archie from absorbing the nutrients in the food?

I am beginning to wonder if Archie is going to have to be scoped. The IMS told me that runs $1500. I wish I wouldn't have to worry about money. I want to do what I can for Archie. It is so frustrating and it worries me so much. He is my sweetie. 9 months old and he has these issues. WHY?!

They say a raw diet works wonders for dogs with some problems. I tried a raw puppy mix but he won't eat it. The lady I bought it from said don't spend the money on allergy testing till you give raw a chance but he won't eat it. Gus isn't crazy about it either but Raleigh loves it. I told Archie's vet I tried it. She said I wouldn't give him that.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sharlene,

Do you think food sensitivities could keep Archie from absorbing the nutrients in the food?



There is a disease known as EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) where the pancreas does not produce the enzymes that break down food and therefore the dog is not able to absorb nutrients even though the dog is eating.

I have had diets formulated for my boys from Monica Segal. If my memory serves me right :eek: I think I paid around $250 for a diet from her. Here's a link to her website: http://www.monicasegal.com/ She also has a YaHoo forum called k9kitchen: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/K9Kitchen/info

I am sorry that you are having this issues with Archie, it can be so frustrating and worrisome when they are so picky. Has an elimination diet been tried with Archie?

Hugs, Lori

[scoora]

Lori,
Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

What would you think an elimination diet would tell us? Anything besides allergies?

The IMS put Archie on Royale Canin Venison and Potato diet to see if it would make a difference. At the time Archie did not have diarrhea or hot spots so I wasn't quite sure what she was looking for. It lasted about 3 weeks. He gave me such a hard time after a while. He wouldn't eat it even with venison meat added. It is hard and expensive to get venison. I was lucky a neighbor gave me a roast and our local farmer's market sold venison patties. I still give me venison patties at times. I think I messed up that diet because he wouldn't eat the dog food.

I will check again but I think a nutritionist would cost me between $250 and $300. I will check out the links you gave me.

I will be checking Archie's weight again soon.

Thanks all help is greatly appreciated.

I still need to take the time and post Archie's latest blood work.

[scoora]

Lori,
When someone does a diet for your dog do they give you several options of what to put in the diet. Like different meats, different veggies? Just curious how it works.
Thanks

[Squirt's Mom]

Typically a nutritionist/ nutritional consultant will design a specific diet using specific ingredients that should not be altered unless required - as in the pup doesn't care for or had a bad reaction to something - and you go back to the person who designed the diet for correction / alteration. Our first "diet" was from UC Davis and it was a total disaster. It did not tell you how much to use in gram weight nor did it tell you what to use. It only gave lists of meats, veggies and fruits to choose from and guided me to use Tums! :eek::eek::eek: Squirt got sick from this diet. That is when I found our nutritionist and she has been eating that diet designed for her and has done very well with it.

[scoora]

Leslie,
So you actually took Squirt to a nutritionist? She saw Squirt in person?
From your experience it sounds like the nutritionist was a better choice for Squirt.
I emailed the nutritionist once and she answered me. Maybe I can get some specifics from her.
Thanks

[Harley PoMMom]

What would you think an elimination diet would tell us? Anything besides allergies?


Finding the food that the dog is allergic to is the only reason I know why an elimination diet is tried.

Monica sent me a very long form to fill out for each dog that I was having a diet formulated for. It did ask what foods that my dog liked to eat, plus a whole bunch of other questions such as if they had any health issues, what kind of bowls they eat/drink out of...etc...it was a looonnngg form to fill out. :eek::)

[Squirt's Mom]

Squirt did not see either the nutritionist who copied and pasted that UC Davis diet nor the consultant who's diet she has been eating for several years now. The first one was in the same hospital where her tumor was removed so I assumed the woman had looked at her records - I was wrong.

The consultant we used also sent a detailed intake form and consulted with our vet which she used to design the diet.

[scoora]

Gus had his rabies vaccination about a week and a half ago. So far, it's OK.
The vet said he definitely needs his nose done when he gets neutered because the opening is so small.

Archie's is still very picky.

Raleigh is having problems with his eye sight. He has cataracts. Thinking about surgery.

[Budsters Mom]

So glad to hear from you Vicki.

Very relieved to hear that Gus us doing well after his Rabies shot. Rosie finally had hers done. She was pretty itchy for a month. Her scratching has finally eased off and she also seems okay. I pretreated her with Benadryl before her shot. She has allergies, so I didn't want to take any unnecessary risks. I also hung out at the vet for over an hour after her shot, just in case of a reaction.

Also glad to hear that Archie is hanging in there. I am sorry that he is so picky. That makes it so hard to find something he will eat.

Poor Raleigh. I had a dog who went blind many years ago. He got around just fine without his sight, but had to be protected while outside. Birds used to dive bomb him just for fun. It was so mean!

Please keep in touch xxxxxx

Kathy

[scoora]

Kathy,
That was mean what the birds did to your blind dog.
It's sad to see Raleigh sometimes. He sees some yet but it's so sad to watch him.

Archie is pickier than ever. Even with cooked meat. He sniffs it and turns and walks away. Sometimes I force food into his mouth to get him to start eating. So frustrating and it breaks my heart. I don't know what to give him anymore.
I don't know what to do. I know he's not getting proper nutrition and not enough calories.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

I am so sorry to hear that Archie still isn't eating well.:o What a worry! Has he been the doctor lately and if so, what did he/she say? Archie certainly has had a tough time for one so young. :o

Big hugs,
Kathy

[Harley PoMMom]

I am sorry, too, that you are having a difficult time getting Archie to eat, I know how frustrating and worrisome this can be. Have you tried Nutri-Cal? Nutri-cal is a calorie supplement and can be smeared either on your finger or in a dog's mouth...here's the link: http://www.tomlyn.com/pr_n_Nutri_Cal.cfm

Will be keeping you and all your sweet furbabies in my thoughts and prayers.

Hugs, Lori

[scoora]

Kathy, Lori-Thanks
Kathy-I don't remember exactly when Archie saw the vet last. He had blood work done the end of March(I think). That was OK but urine specific gravity was a bit high. Did another urine test end of April. It improved into the high end of normal range.
That's the last I spoke to the vet.

Lori-I was giving Archie Nutri-Cal chewables when I first got him. They discontinued them so when all of this started I then gave him the gel in the tube. He liked it. I wasn't sure about the sugary ingredients so I went to Wysong's Call of the Wild powder you put in the food. It's for home cooked meals. If I think he didn't get enough Wysong I will give him some Nutri-Cal also. Well if he doesn't eat then he doesn't get the supplement in him plus I swear he can smell it in his food. He sniffs everything before he eats it. That's not why he wouldn't eat this morning. I offered him chicken and hamburger that wasn't in his dish and he still didn't want it.
I didn't offer him anything after breakfast until supper. He still turned his nose at the meat and went into his crate. I offered him a piece of dog food by hand and he licked it. So I put some in a dish and put it in the crate. He licked all the gravy. Not sure if he ate any, don't think so. Just licked. He then came out of the crate and I was able to get him to eat most of his chicken, hamburger and I added a bit of barley. Also had vitamins in it. I have to keep after him to keep eating. I just never know what he wants. Last week it was chicken. This week hamburger. He used to gobble up chicken hearts. Now walks away from them.

For a while Archie's stool has been dark. I just thought it was his diet. He has been eating frozen blueberries and I read they can cause dark stool. Now I'm beginning to think I better have it checked just in case. His stools are still soft at times.

[scoora]

Has anyone used the Bach Rescue Remedy?
I was thinking of trying it on Archie.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Vicki:
Thanks for thinking of Tipper and I. The Bachs remedy is for anxiety etc. You can get it now with no alcohol. That is why I never got it before as Cush dogs cannot have alcohol, and I read somewhere a lot of people thought it was the alcohol in it kind of doping up their dogs. I will let you know how it goes. For now I am using Skullcap and Passionflower brewed and steeped like a tea. Pour it over food and she downs it, so no trouble giving it, but it does not last long and you must test these things out on their skin to first make sure they are not allergic as that would be a disaster with Tipper being allergic to everything. Hope you and the boys are well, I read your thread and know you are still struggling with poor Archie. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Please read my post before ordering Bach's Remedy. I am so sorry Noe I cannot use it. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Today, June 6th, is my sweetie Archie's 1st birthday.

Happy Birthday to my Archie!!!!

I hope you have many more with us.

Love you so much,
Mom
Dad, Molly, Scoop, Raleigh, Gus

[labblab]

Today, June 6th, is my sweetie Archie's 1st birthday.

Happy Birthday to my Archie!!!!

I hope you have many more with us.

Love you so much,
Mom
Dad, Molly, Scoop, Raleigh, Gus
Oh, HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY from me, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p

I hope you all have a WONDERFUL day!!! ;)

All best wishes,
Marianne

[scoora]

Thank you so much Marianne.

[Budsters Mom]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BIG GUY! :D:D:D xxxxx

[goldengirl88]

Happy Birthday To You Archie. You have the best mom around! Hope you are getting stronger and doing better. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Thank you Kathy and Patti for the birthday wishes for Archie.

[molly muffin]

Archie had a birthday!!! That is wonderful. :) Happy Birthday Archie.

Many, many more birthdays to come.

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[scoora]

Thanks Sharlene.

[Harley PoMMom]

Today, June 6th, is my sweetie Archie's 1st birthday.

Happy Birthday to my Archie!!!!

I hope you have many more with us.

Love you so much,
Mom
Dad, Molly, Scoop, Raleigh, Gus

OH MY GOSH, How did I miss this :mad::(

Wishing sweet Archie a very HAPPY 1st BIRTHDAY!!!! :):):D:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy 1sy Birthday, Archie!

[scoora]

Lori and Leslie,
Thanks for the birthday wishes for my Archie.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Just wanted you to know I think of you and Scoop often. Hope things are going well with the new babies. Hope Archie is eating better for you. Blessings
patti

[scoora]

Patti,
Thank you so much.
I think of everyone here often, too. It is still hard. I cry every day.
I think of Scoop and I cry. I cry cause I'm worried about Archie. When I do come on here, I cry.

Archie's eating is not better. It's worse. Everyone says to let him go hungry.
He has changed. He is just different. He's not his hyper, crazy self. I take him out to pee and he doesn't pull me around like he used to. He stares across the street or down the road when we're out. He's just different. He sleeps so much. I worry so much about the encephalitis thing.

I had Archie to the vet last week. His ears were a bit red. So he also had a heartworm/lyme disease test done. It was negative. He had blood work done. Wasn't too bad except his lymphocytes had been high but with each test they had been coming down. This time they went up a bit. Also his creatine kinase has been high and is still high. A few others were high but the vet didn't mention them so I guess he wasn't worried about them.
I asked him about Archie's spine. It's been hunched for a while. He did an x-ray. It's showed his spine is hunched a bit but he said he didn't see anything to be causing a problem. He did show me that Archie's intestines were full of gas.
I mentioned how I see a change in Archie. He said I'm sure you do but I think you are a worry wart.
I talked to the vet about taking Archie to a holistic vet. He thought it was a good idea. I mentioned Dr. Simpson who Scoop saw last year. He knew of her and thought she would be a good one to go to. I called her and she is starting to close up her practice. Her parents live in NC and are elderly. She travels to see them. She closed her office and is working out of another hospital for now. She said by the fall she hopes to be retired and it wouldn't be fair to start with Archie and then leave. So she wouldn't see him. I would have been perfectly fine with her seeing him initially to get her opinion but she didn't let me say that. She suggested someone for me to take him to.
Dr. Simpson is strictly a holistic vet. Dr. Gabriel is an integrative vet. She does more things than Dr. Simpson but I really wanted Dr. Simpson's opinion on Archie. I wouldn't have minded switching over when the time came or even taken him to see both but she thought it is better this way.
So Archie has an appointment tomorrow (Wed.) with Dr. Gabriel.
The regular vet said Archie needs help with his GI, immune system. I felt Dr. Simpson would have been the one to help with that so we'll see.
Dr. Simpson and Dr. Gabriel both do acupuncture at the ER hospital(Valley Central) by us. Scoop did see Dr. Gabriel one time last year when Dr. Simpson was away. Dr. Simpson did tell me she was the one who got Dr. Gabriel to come to Valley Central and she feels Dr. Gabriel has experience and is qualified. Sure hope she is right.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
We started this forum pretty close to one another and I always feel a closeness to you and Scoop. I am so sorry you cry, I know you have had quite a lot to deal with, but I commend you for taking on the boys after all you went thru to help sweet Scoop. It is a testament to your love for animals. Please do not worry about the Creatinine Kinase being high. When they take blood from an animal if they miss the vein and puncture anything else especially muscle these numbers go sky high. Maybe offer this up to them and ask them to be careful when drawing his blood as this is why it is high. The only other thing would be a muscle disease and he is not showing any signs of that from what you have posted. I sometimes get caught up on the first page and forget the everything else page, so I have to be more aware of it. I hope you can have a good summer, and I hope Archie somehow turns the corner and gets well and eats good. I know what you are saying that something is different about him. Our intuition means a lot as we know what is going on with our babies. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh my, dear Vicki,

I am so sorry that you and your babies are going through so very much, sending you and your boys tons of healing and positive energy along with huge loving hugs, Lori

[scoora]

Patti and Lori,
Thank you so much for your kind, loving words.
They are much appreciated.
Hugs

[scoora]

It was not a successful visit to the integrative vet.
I am so frustrated right now.
Archie acted so strange yesterday, it scared the heck out of me.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
So sorry to hear about Archie the integrated vet was not much help? What was Archie doing that is so worrisome? Hope this poor little guy gets break soon, he has been thru an awful lot, but landed in the best home possible as I now you will do whatever it takes to help him. I feel so bad for him. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Archie had been going to beginner's obedience classes. Today they had their graduation. There were only 5 dogs in the class. Archie was the only small dog. He was voted the most improved and received a nice, big blue ribbon. I am very proud of him. They made little hats for them, they got a certificate and they played games and won toys. It was a nice time. I can't believe how fast 8 weeks went.

[scoora]

Patti-I am so frustrated. The new vet put Archie on a homeopathic remedy. It had a mixture for his GI, immune system and it said neuro calm. That night I looked up the ingredients on the internet. It said the one for the GI has strychnine in it. The one for the immune system has ethanoyl. I know it must only contain a very small amount and people use it all the time but it makes me nervous. I talked to the vet and she said I have to be comfortable using it. So I asked if she could recommend something else. She said she couldn't think of anything off the top of her head. I asked her to call me if she came up with something. Haven't heard from her. She is supposed to work with western and Chinese herbs. Now wouldn't you think there would be something to give Archie like that? I explained how he is so picky and is not food motivated. I said can you recommend a good vitamin for him. She said a children's multi. That was disappointing. I was talking to someone who breeds Pugs. She mentioned a supplement called NuVet. The product looks fantastic. I called and spoke to someone at their customer service. They are super nice and helpful. The product comes in wafer or powder form. I got the wafers because he won't eat if he knows there is something in his meat. He will not take the supplement. I called and they are sending me samples of the powder to see if I can get him to take that. I know it is going to be hard.

A little over a week ago Archie was acting very strange. He was darting around from spot to spot in the house. He went into the bathroom, he would put his head down slightly and rubbed along the tub. He went into the corner between the door and the wall three times and would back out. When he went to leave the bathroom he kind of missed the door(hard to explain). In the living room he rubbed himself again. On the couch he put his head at the arm and rubbed and then stayed in a strange position for a while. He went into the kitchen and sat against a cabinet and then darted into his crate. He air licked and his head moves up and down. He then laid down and his eye brows move. It's hard to explain but it was very odd to me and he never has done that before.

[scoora]

Raleigh has an appointment to have his eyes rechecked today. Poor guy, I feel so bad for him. He is really having a hard time seeing. I can't really afford cataract surgery but if the doctor says she thinks she can do his left eye we are going to consider getting it done. She said she won't do his right eye. The right eye is not good at all. I didn't know his right eye had gotten so bad till he saw the specialist.
The doctor is at the same hospital where Scoop passed away at. It can be a bit tough going there.
The last few days Raleigh has had some tummy issues. Hope it's nothing serious. He still has an appetite but yesterday I was careful with what I gave him.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I don't know where I posted a message for you, but I lit a candle for Scoop. Know I am thinking of you and him. I wish things had been different as you were the best cush mom, and you gave it your all. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Patti,
I read your message and I saw the candle.
Thank you so much for all you kind words and for lighting the candle.

[scoora]

Raleigh will be going back on the 14th to have his retinas tested. She said if the retina isn't good there is no sense doing the surgery.
Please pray that everything looks OK so he can have the surgery.
I'm not thrilled about the thought of surgery because it scares me to think that something can happen but I feel so bad for him. His sight isn't good and his hearing isn't good. So hopefully we can take care of the one eye for him to be able to see.

It upsets me to think that his right eye has been bad for a while and I didn't know it.

[scoora]

Tomorrow, July 4th my little Gus will be one year old.

Happy Birthday Gus!

Love, Mom, Dad, Molly, Raleigh, Archie

[Budsters Mom]

HAPPY 1st Birthday Gus! Don't let your big brothers push you around! ;):p:D xxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy Birthday, Gus!!!

[scoora]

Thank you Kathy and Lori for birthday wishes for Gus.

[addy]

Did someone say birthday????


Happy Birthday Gus

[Tina]

Happy Birthday Gus!!!

And hugs to your Mom from me and Jasper. :)

[molly muffin]

Awwww, Happy Birthday Gus!! 1 year old! How time flies, when you aren't looking!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[scoora]

Addy and Tina,
Thanks for the birthday wishes for Gus and the hugs.

[scoora]

Raleigh's retinas passed the test. He had a check-up and blood work done at the vet yesterday. Today they called and said his blood work is good. Now we see about starting pre-surgery meds. Have to wait till I hear from the doctor.
Thinking about the surgery makes me nervous but I don't know if he can see at all anymore. Yesterday going into the vet's he walked into a pole. When they get treats he sits there like a little birdie with his mouth open waiting to be fed.
Hopefully he will get his sight back in his one eye with the surgery.

[scoora]

Has anyone heard of or used Nuvet Plus supplement?
I started Archie on it. I hope it is as good as they say it is.
Sometimes you just don't know if things are what they say they are.
It looks like a very good product

[scoora]

I was wondering if anyone has used homeopathic remedies?
If so, what was it and did you feel like it helped?

The vet I took Archie to a few weeks ago started him on one for his GI, immune system and a neuro calm. When I looked them up on the internet I wasn't happy with what was in them. It scared me to give it to him.

Just wondering if anyone has experience with them?

[molly muffin]

Oh I do hope that the surgery will be successful.

Sending good vibes your way.
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

I've merged your posts about the supplement and Homeopathics into your babies original thread so we can keep it all together. Hopefully you will get more answers as they might pertain to your guys if your questions are connected to their thread. ;)

[scoora]

Thanks Sharlene,
Raleigh gave us a scare at the end of the week. We could tell something wasn't right with his "good" eye, the one that will have the surgery. The first thing I thought of was a corneal ulcer. Thank goodness it wasn't. His regular vet checked him. He has been walking into things outside of the house so maybe he bumped his eye. Just hope it's OK. Surgery isn't scheduled yet. Hopefully we will get it scheduled this week.

[scoora]

Thanks Leslie,
I was asking because of Archie.
He is on the NuVet supplement and I was hoping to hear if anyone else has used it.
The integrative vet wanted to put him on a homeopathic remedy but I didn't like what I read was in the remedy.

[scoora]

Raleigh's cataract surgery is scheduled for Monday if all is OK.
He started with some inflammation in his left eye, the only one they will operate on. His right eye is not a candidate for surgery.

[molly muffin]

We'll be cheering for Raleihg. Hope the surgery is a great success.

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[scoora]

Thank you so much Sharlene.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Vicki,

You and Raleigh will be in my thoughts and prayers, hoping for a successful surgery and uneventful recovery.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Budsters Mom]

Praying for your sweet Boy. :)

[labblab]

Me, too!!!!!

Marianne

[scoora]

Lori, Kathy, Marianne,
Thank you. I appreciate it very much.
Raleigh has had some problems with that eye recently. I hope nothing will keep him from having the surgery. I feel so bad for him.
His hearing is very bad also. I hope and pray he will be able to at least see with the one eye.
I didn't realize his right eye is as bad as it is. So bad they won't do surgery on it.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Vicki,

I tried to send you a private message regarding vaccinations. I read your response on Tina's thread about your concerns about the rabies vaccination. Your message box is full. I was unable to send that message. This is the message I received........

scoora has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space

If you want to hear what I have to say, please clear some space in your message box. Thanks,

Kathy

[labblab]

Hi Vicki,

Like Kathy, I also saw your question about rabies titer testing and wanted to pass along this info. It is possible to test rabies titers, but as far as I know, no state will yet accept these test results in place of the legal requirement to vaccinate at specified regular intervals. Dr. Richard Schultz, noted immunological expert at Univ. of Wisconsin, has headed a research study aimed at investigating the true duration of immunity created by modern-day rabies vaccine by testing titers ("The Rabies Challenge"). The goal is to see whether immunity extends long enough to increase the spacing between legally mandated boosters. The research has not yet been completed, but some preliminary results are available. Disappointingly, thus far, conventional titer testing has not provided evidence for immunity lasting significantly longer than the three year booster interval now required in many states for dogs after the initial vaccination sequence has been completed at one year. However, the researchers believe that an alternative way of testing immunological response may establish that immunity does truly last longer than that. As far as I know, however, the study remains ongoing and the alternative testing protocol has not yet been validated by actually challenging the study dogs with rabies virus. Here is a link to the study's most current status report:

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/latest/summary-of-the-rabies-challenge-fund-duration-of-immunity-study

For any dog who already has had a bad response to a rabies vaccination or who has health issues that make vaccination especially dangerous, you can always see whether your state will legally accept a medical waiver in place of proof of vaccination. If so, you can ask your vet to please sign a waiver. The downside, however, is that this means your dog would need to be guarantined for an extended time period if he ever bites anybody. And in most states, a dog without proof of active vaccination must be put down or totally isolated for lengthy periods if exposed to a rabid animal. So there are a few risks associated with the waiver, as well. Given the timing of Archie's seizure problems -- right after his previous rabies shot -- I do understand why you are especially worried. However, this first one-year booster for him is needed to complete his initial vaccination protection sequence. So I do think it's a good idea to discuss your concerns and options with your vet.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki,

Did Raleigh have his eye surgery today? How did it go?

Thinking of you
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Popping in to check on Raleigh. ;):p

[scoora]

Kathy, Sorry about the PM box being full. The messages are about Scoop and I have a hard time deleting them. I know I should but it's hard.

Marianne, Thanks for that info on rabies titers. I'm glad there is testing going on. It won't help my Archie but it will be good for future problems with dogs.
From what I've read there are a lot of issues with animals when they get vaccinations. I am so torn up about what to do about Archie's booster in Oct. He doesn't need any more problems and what if it causes him to have more seizures? I just don't know if his immune system can take it but I also don't want any problems if he bites someone. Different books that I have read that are written by holistic vets say that vaccinations are to be given to healthy dogs. The one vet in the practice where we go definitely knows how I feel about the vaccinations, rabies and the distemper combo.
Since he had that seizure after his first rabies shot (which was only 2 weeks after his distemper) I think his vet will sign a waiver. I read that it has to be done every year. I'm pretty sure our state will accept a waiver. The drug company says the vaccination doesn't cause problems like Archie's but all the books I read the holistic vets say they do cause those problems and more.

This whole thing sucks. What if I get Archie his booster shots and he has more problems or even dies from them. How do I live with myself?
I haven't found the help I've been looking for to help boost his immune system. I wish Dr. Simpson(holistic vet) would have accepted him as a patient. I just don't know what to do! It has me so frazzled.

[scoora]

Sharlene, Kathy,
Thanks for checking in on Raleigh. He had his surgery on Monday. It wasn't till around 5:00PM and we got home with him around 9:00PM. The doctor was talking about these threads in the eye. I didn't catch exactly what they are all about but Raleigh's are very fragile. She said probably from age and some of them tore during surgery. So they couldn't put a lens in his eye. Without the lens he should have good vision at a distance but not close up. Sometimes I feel like everything I do just doesn't work out the way it should. I try hard to do the right thing but it feels like nothing goes right.
I haven't seen any proof that he can see anything yet.
He was still pretty much out of it yesterday except when it was time to eat.
We'll see if today is any better. He goes for a check-up on Friday.

[scoora]

Kathy,
I definitely want to hear what you have to say about vaccinations.
When I have time later I will look at my PMs and make room. I will let you know when I do that.
Thanks

[molly muffin]

How is Raleigh doing today?

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[scoora]

Hi Sharlene,
Raleigh does seem a bit better today. Thanks for asking.
His eye is still red.
He goes for a check-up tomorrow so we'll see what the ophthalmologist has to say. Can't tell if he can see with the eye.

[scoora]

Does anyone use a daily multi-vitamin supplement or a supplement to help boost the immune system?

[scoora]

Has anyone ever used Rescue Remedy?

[molly muffin]

i haven't maybe some of the others know something about it. How is Raleigh doing?

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[scoora]

Raleigh's doing OK. His eye is still red. Don't know if it should be but it's only been a little over a week.
He has more confidence when he goes up and down the steps to go outside and I'm not afraid he will bump into everything outside.
This evening we were standing at the end of our driveway and someone walked by. I could see that Raleigh realized someone was there but he didn't bark. After the man got several yards down the road Raleigh started barking. I said to my husband I wonder if that was when he could make the person out since his distance is supposed to better than close up.

Sharlene, thanks for asking about Raleigh.

[addy]

Oh Vicki, I hope Raleigh gets better. Sometimes, things don't come out as we plan but we keep trying.

hugs

[scoora]

Well, Raleigh now has an ulcer in the eye he had the cataract surgery.

I am waiting to hear from the vet about Archie's titer tests.

Gus is on antibiotics and steroids for itchy, infected skin.

[addy]

Aww Vicky, you have your hands full and I hope thing settle down for you and the pups soon. That is a lot to deal with.

Big hugs

[molly muffin]

omg, something going on with all three of them?!!! at the same time. what a time you seem to be having with all of this. :(

I do hope things turn out okay.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Bless all your hearts!

[scoora]

Addy, Sharlene, Leslie,
Thank you!

[Budsters Mom]

Wow Vicki! You certainly have your hands full. :o

Do you think that Gus's itching is due to allergies or something else? have the others been scratching too?

So sorry to hear about Raleigh's eye? Are the docs going to be able to do anything to help?

So glad to hear that Archie is hanging in there. Let us know how his titer tests come out and whether the state will accept Archie's rabies titer test. As far as I know, that hasn't been approved in any state as of yet. If not, will your vet give you an exemption if they are available in your state?

Please keep us posted on all the boys,

[scoora]

Hi Kathy,
I sent you a visitor's message but it's about these same things.
Gus' skin has cleared and his itching is a lot better. He is done with his meds. The vet tested his skin and poop and didn't come up with anything else. So probably allergies. Raleigh has been itching and I'm thinking he might have scratched his eye and might have caused the ulcer. I'm not a vet but his itching can get pretty bad. I put an old e-collar (one of those plastic cone ones) that I put on him when he starts to go after his face. Don't need any more eye problems. His eye is healing and he isn't walking into things as much so hopefully he'll get his little bit of vision back when it's fully healed. I was told if he has scar tissue from the ulcer after it's healed, they can put him on more drops to help with the scar tissue, so we'll see.
Archie was very itchy over the summer but he has gotten better for right now.
I still haven't heard about Archie's titer tests. Yesterday, Mon., it was a week.
I'm nervous about it. Do you know how those things are read for the immunity? Like must there be a certain number or what? I was told by the office manager at the vet if Archie shows immunity the vet will apply for an exemption from the state for Archie. Hopefully that will be the case.
I will let you know when I hear the results.
Please keep your fingers crossed he shows immunity for all three.
I have been reading on the website dogs4 dogs.com about all this. Unbelievable!!!! That's the site you linked me to last year the night before Archie had his rabies shot. Sure wish I would have been able to read all that before Archie got his shot.

[scoora]

A couple more things-

I found a small lump on the side of Archie's neck last night. Will keep a eye on that for a few days.

Has anyone ever used homeopathic remedies?

[Budsters Mom]

Homeopathic remedies to treat what?

[scoora]

Kathy, I have been reading many different books and websites from holistic vets.
They all believe vaccinations, especially the rabies, can cause many, many serious problems.
A lot of them do homeopathy and believe it is possible that a homeopathic vet could possibly use a remedy to rid the body of the bad side affects of a vaccination. The integrative vet Archie saw a couple of times over the summer does homeopathy but it is not classic homeopathy. I recently found out there is a difference. There is a Dr. Richard Pitcairn whose book I have. He actually started a school for vets to learn classic homeopathy. He has a website and I was reading a blog on there and decided to write to him. I told him some of the problems Archie has had. He wrote back to me and he believes that Archie might benefit from a homeopathic vet. Also, homeopathic vets can give a remedy right after a vaccination to help rid the body of the bad things. I am so worried I will be forced to give him a rabies booster. What if a homeopathic vet could help him with the way he is? This whole thing with these shots has me crazy. It is constantly on my mind. There is a vet about half an hour from us who took Dr. Pitcairn's course but she is not a holistic vet. Everything else she does is traditional. Just makes me wonder. Also I just can't afford it. If I knew for sure she could help I wouldn't hesitate. Dr. Pitcairn said if I can't take him to see a homeopath then he had names of doctors who consult by phone or email. He said I should consider talking to one about Archie's nutrition. He is a big believer that food is very important in healing the body. The thing is I need someone to help me get Archie to eat more variety of food. I don't know if that's possible. If you go to Dr. Pitcairn's website and go to blogs, click the one under homeopath, click to continue reading the story, at the bottom you can see where I wrote to him. The lady who has the website you linked me to last year, dogs4dogs.com, she mentions a lot about homeopathic vets and suggests to people who write in to take their dogs to see a homeopath.
That's why I was wondering if anyone has any experience with homeopathy.

[scoora]

Archie's titer test results are in. His Distemper/Parvo results are fine but his rabies is not. The vet said .5 is good. Archie's is less than .1
Not good at all. I am so afraid to get him a booster with the issues he has and the seizure he had following the shot last year but I am afraid of him getting bit by a rabid animal and getting rabies. I have been told about a couple incidences in our area with rabid animals. Why didn't he show immunity on his titers. It would have been a lot easier.
This is so hard.