Coconut's fur loss from a groomer (Vetoryl)

[Cindy]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and just happened upon this website when I googled canine Cushing's Disease and became very interested in other dog owners with this dreaded disease. Having a little trouble navigating the forum until I can learn it and wondered if it also took you some time?

It was discovered in 2010 that our now 11-year-old American Eskimo dog has Cushing's Disease based on results of her senior wellness test. She undergoes blood tests every 6 months to ensure the numbers are in sync and an annual ultrasound for a liver check. She started with 30 mg of Vetoryl, went to 60 mg, and is now back to 30 mg based on her last test. She also takes 300 mg of Ursodiol and Denamarin - all three once a day. She's had no loss of her fur until July a recommended groomer shaved her for a "summer" cut and now we fear some of her once beautiful fur will not return as before. What hair is returning seems patchy in places. Our vet said it may never return as it was but, if it does, to give it a lot of time - it's been three months now. Of course we regret not staying with our trusted groomer at our vet but hindsight is 20/20. Has anyone ever used or tried a supplement called Atopica from 800-Petmeds for skin allergies as well as hair growth?

Thanks so much!
Cindy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and Coconut! :)


It was discovered in 2010 that our now 11-year-old American Eskimo dog has Cushing's Disease based on results of her senior wellness test.

Please, please, please tell me Coconut had other tests to diagnose the Cushing's besides the senior wellness test! The senior wellness test CANNOT diagnose Cushing's period. And if she was started on a powerful drug like Vetoryl based on that test alone, that is very scary, highly risky, and displays an woeful lack of understanding on the part of the vet. It wouldn't be the first time we have seen a vet start a pup on these drugs based on that test, tho. I SO HOPE Coconut had the ACTH, LDDS, and/or abdominal ultrasound before the diagnosis was arrived at! Since she has been on this drug since 2010, I am not quite as panicked as I would had you just started treatment but I am still concerned about the diagnosis and how the vet determined the diagnosis. I'm a HUGE worry wort! :o

What signs had you seen prior to the senior wellness test? Increased drinking, increased peeing and/or accidents in the house, ravenous appetite, skin infections, panting, hair loss, seeking cool places, pot belly....anything?

What improvement in those signs have you seen since starting treatment?

How much does Coconut weigh?

Does she have any other health issues that you know of?

Is she on any other meds, herbs, supplement, etc. than those you have mentioned?

It would help us a great deal if you could get copies of the actual test results and post them here along with the little letters that follow the numbers (like ug/dl, mnol/L, etc) and the normal ranges for each value. On the senior wellness we will only need to see those values that are abnormal - too high or too low. Your entry here in this thread will look something like this example -

ALP 1300 ug/dl 150- 400 (for EXAMPLE)

All the info from any LDDS, ultrasound and all the ACTHs she has had done to date. The more you can tell us about her health history the better. We LOVE details so don't worry about posting a book - I don't! :p

I don't think the groomer can be blamed for the hair not growing back. Cutting it too short or not how you wanted, yes, but not the failure to regrow. That isone of the signs of uncontrolled cortisol and common for cush pups. ;) The drug she is on, Vetoryl, is also known for causing the dogs to blow their old coats and regrow a new one, sometimes an altogether different coat. Tho this typically happens earlier in treatment rather than years later. It seems we do have members who have used the Atopica but make sure with the vet this is what is needed for Coconut and it would help if we could see all those tests results first as well. ;)

I'm glad you found us and am looking forward to much more info on your sweet girl. We will be by your side from now on. Anytime you need to ask a question, just chat, or even cry and scream, we will be here.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cindy]

Hi Leslie,

Actually, Vetoryl was added by Admin to the title to let forum members know upfront she is on the med. The title does read like we believe her patchy fur returning is due to the groomer, but, in fact, we do. I told her Coconut had Cushing's so obviously she had no idea what that meant so it was my fault for not explaining. Otherwise, she would have not shaved her fur so close to the skin. She was scalped so her idea of a summer cut was far different than our regular groomer. Even her once bushy tail isn't the same. Due to the fact hair loss (and ultimate death) without treatment is common, our vet said she should have never been shaved regardless. Our trusted groomer's summer cut (a doggie salon in our vet's office) was perfect, short but even, and came back as a coat and not patchy. She is looking better but we feel it's a plus to use a groomer connected with our vet as they know special needs of dogs with certain health conditions.

The wellness test our vet performs has been done for several years. To alleviate your worry about her diagnosis, in 2010 when the liver values were off, the vet wanted to do additional testing. First, she did a screening test that was specific. Then the ultrasound that showed a slightly enlarged liver that has remained stable maybe due in part to the Denamarin. Also, the ACTH and LDDS were performed since Cushing’s was suspected. Before treatment began, the vet consulted (and still does if necessary) with the experts at the University of GA Veterinary Medicine School ranked 9th in the nation so we feel confident she is on the right track with Coco’s treatment plan without asking to see her values.

We were at the dog park one day and an American Eskimo doggie was practically bald. We spoke to the owner and she said their vet failed to diagnose Cushing's early on and by the time they went elsewhere, it was too late as the fur that is gone will never return. The dog looked so pitiful and we were so happy we had an astute vet who caught it early on. While Coco does have a pot belly, hers isn't as bad as this poor dog's was.

She is overweight by about 10 lbs at 35 lbs. She has no other health conditions and is actually quite alert and active for her age. I asked the vet about the supplement Dasuquin with MSM soft chews and she said it is ok to give her to help joints as we've noticed in the past few months climbing stairs isn't as easy.

Regarding my question to the forum about Atopica, our vet says the drug Cyclosporine is an immune suppressant with side effects.The only time it might be recommended is if a dog has severe itching and scratching due to environmental conditions. However, she did recommend giving her 5 mg twice a day of Melatonin that could help and has zero side effects.

Btw, and am sure many members already know and/or have known about a wonderful web site for all animal conditions including canine Cushing’s: www.veterinarypartner.com– an out-of-town vet mentioned it several years ago when I mentioned our dog has Cushing's.

Thanks for your concern. :)

Hugs back to you and the gang!
Cindy

[grapey]

Re. Atopica, I don't know a lot about it, but my mom has had very good experience giving it to her Boston who had a lot of bad allergy issues. She lost patches of her hair all over her body at least two or three years in a row during allergy season--it was really sad. I don't know if Atopica alone fixed that, but she's been doing really well the last several years. She still takes it periodically (weekly?).

[molly muffin]

Welcome Cindy and Coconut :)

Well, you can't say never with the hair regrowth. We have a member whose dog Zoe is a prime example of where on earth did all that hair come from, after years of being a bit on the sparse side. She is looking pretty darn good now. I don't know if it is different for each dog or not, but there seems to be a happy cortisol level, that if maintained over some time, the hair goes through it's cycles and starts to grow again. So it is possible. Otherwise, all you can do is keep the skin in good condition, (salmon oil, for instance, but a good coat supplement) and then if it is going to regrow, its in an optimal state for this to happen.

It sounds like you have a good vet for Coconut and nice that you have the expertise of GA Vet school too. Those can be very handy to have consulting.

So glad you found us. Oh yea, I have a vet friend in the states that sent me the same link to vet partners.

Welcome again
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

~~whew~~ Thanks for the extra info, Cindy! I can breath a bit better now! :p I can't tell you how many times we have seen vets make a diagnosis and tell the parent to start their pup on treatment for Cushing's based on nothing more than elevated ALP! :eek: So I am very pleased to hear your sweet Coconut seems to be in good hands with her vet. I'll go find something else to fret about now. :D

I googled the Atopica the other day and found it is an immune suppressant. The site I visited listed this info -


Notify your veterinarian immediately if your pet develops fever (over 103°), painful urination, tiredness, sneezing, coughing, or runny nose.These symptoms could be early signs of dangerous side effects.

Tell your veterinarian if your pet has liver disease, kidney disease, cancer, high blood pressure, a viral, bacterial or fungal infection, or any other serious or chronic condition. Tell your veterinarian if your pet is pregnant or lactating, and if you plan to breed your pet.

The safe use in breeding, pregnant or lactating pets has not been determined. Do not use Atopica in pets with known allergy to the medication. The drug should not be used in pets with kidney disease, stomach ulcers, and certain blood disorders. Prolonged use of Atopica can result in bacterial or fungal infection related to a decreased effect of the immune system.

If any of the following serious side effects occur, stop giving Atopica and seek emergency veterinary medical attention; an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing, swelling of the lips, tongue or face, and hives). Other less serious side effects may occur. Continue giving Atopica and talk to your veterinarian if your pet develops vomiting, soft stools or diarrhea, muscle cramps, muscle weakness, loss of appetite, and change of hair coat. Other side effects may occur. Talk to your veterinarian about any side effect that seems unusual or bothersome to the animal.

http://www.1800petmeds.com/Atopica+For+Dogs-prod10658.html

Melatonin is a fairly benign supplement but not without side effects.


Side effects : This drug is generally considered to be safe and few side effects have been noted, but like any drug hypersensitivity reactions are possible in a very small number of individuals. Other side effects have been related to drug interaction with medications which the dog is already taking such as sedatives, steroids and monoamine oxidase inhibitors. With some individuals you may see excessive lethargy or paradoxically nervous behaviour. Lastly it can interfere with your female dog's reproductive cycle.

http://www.vetblog.net/2013/01/dog-melatonin-uses-dose-rate.html


Major Side Effects

Melatonin can affect the normal body production or the supplemental use of certain hormones. Blood levels of human growth hormone (HGH) may be increased, while luteinizing hormone (LH) may be decreased. HGH stimulates growth in children and helps to regulate metabolism in adults. LH is important in the development of eggs and sperm. Other hormones may be affected, too. While no serious results have been identified, laboratory tests for these hormones may be inaccurate if the tests are performed during the same period that melatonin is taken. Individuals who take melatonin should inform their doctors before having any laboratory blood work.

Less Severe Side Effects

Other side effects reported by individuals taking melatonin include:

Abdominal cramps
Confusion
Depression
Dizziness
Drowsiness
Fatigue
Headache
Irritability
Low blood pressure
Nausea
Vomiting

http://www.drugdigest.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/c1/dY1bDoIwFETXwgruBQzUz0JUykPEIiI_BIUQBAshSJXVqwtw5u 8kcwYy-FYUc1MXU9OLooMUMiPXcYe4s9kJt0xHRpyA-PT4pSqcfwsjxz-hCHunf1Rwgcz86yEaJKIfH7-_uakkxJDiKuf39xDG_OUtdf30bmPA19Vh2eh7zhd3IXOAsvRcX qRZeBXGqbQ7Zm2aduK2ZpHOZEGeSH-lSlqbdJtGigJDK6SMqPIBfKk6-Q!!/dl2/d1/L0lDU0dZcHBpZ3BSQ2dwUkNncFJBL29Ob2dBRUlZSWdHRUFJUk FNSWhSaEVBd2dGT1FZRGdwQ2tyQ0FZUUxSdEdWcXpyT1ZZQSEv NEEwYWNVWEpNbTRvZVNaTHhSOGt5ZmlnRUEhIS83XzMwRzAwR0 NJVTBGSTMwSThITThMQVIzMDgyL2hlcmJzL2R2aG5hbWUvTWVs YXRvbmluL2R2aGlkLzQwNjAvbWV0aG9kL3NpZGVFZmZlY3Rz/

Melatonin is one of the treatments for a form of Cushing's called Atypical in which cortisol is normal but other hormones are elevated. The pups that start this treatment usually have an adjustment period in which they are quite sleepy, and some become restless. But most settle in with it just fine. I use it myself to help me sleep from time to time and I typically feel groggy the next day for a bit. I wouldn't hesitate to use it with my pup if needed. In fact, she was taking 9mg a day until March of this year and now gets 6mg a day. But she built up to these levels so start slow and increase as needed. ;) Be sure to get plain melatonin, not time released, extended wear, or added ingredients - just plain ole melatonin.

I'm really sorry the groomer cut so close but the hair can grow back....it just may take a while. Funny thing about melatonin - it helps hair and nails grow. Squirt's nails are like a Shepherd's they are so thick and grow so very fast...and she weighs 14 lbs! So the melatonin may help Coconut's coat. ;)

You're doing good, Mom! Keep up the good work!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[doxiesrock912]

Daisy's fur has also grown back. Including her stomach which was shaved when she was spayed. It took almost a year.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi and a belated welcome from me too :)

My Roxee had very thin hair and had the typical rat tail, you may even see it in some of her pics in my album. Once her cushings was under control, her hair came back beautifully and even her tail was starting to grow back.

I am a retired groomer, having left the corporate world to take up grooming in my late 50's. Dogs are so much more fun to deal with than many humans :D ;)

I always asked when a owner wanted my client to have a shave down, typically a summer shave down is done with a # 10 blade which is not much more than a surgical shave. It leaves about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch of hair. Another term is a puppy cut which usually uses a #3 blade and leaves about a 1/2 inch of hair length.

I am sorry, your temporary groomer didn't clarify exactly what you wanted. With any new client most groomers should be very clear on understanding what the owner wants, and consider the environment before agreeing on the cut.

[molly muffin]

Hi Cindy, checking in to see how you and Coconut are doing. How is the hair looking now?

Sharlene and Molly Muffin