Veoryl help (12 y/o Black Lab mix)

[1avrgjoe]

Sadie was recently diagnosed with Cushings. She's a 12 year old Black Lab mix. After a couple months using Amytriptaline my vet prescribed Vetoryl. I've read about some very bad side effects and that the medication can be dangerous to her. I haven't given her the medicine yet. We've looked into some alternatives but I wanted to ask if anyone had any advice for me. Her symptoms are getting worse, especially whining at night. If I don't take her swimming for at least 30 minutes she is very nervous at night. She doesn't like to take long hikes anymore, and soon swimming will not be an option. Is delaying the Vetoryl a bad idea? I'm very scared of the side effect.

[Roxee's Dad]

Welcome to you and Sadie,

I apologize in advance for all the questions we are about to ask you, but, the more we know about Sadie, the better our cush family may be able to help.

Please tell us about the circumstances that led to the cushings diagnosis. What testing was performed, UC/CR, ACTH, LDDS?

Does Sadie have any of the typical symptoms? Extreme hunger, extreme thirst, peeing buckets? Pot belly, loss of hair or fur?

How much does Sadie weigh and what mg of Vetoryl did the vet prescribe?

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[frijole]

Vetoryl works very well if the dosage is correct and that's where a vet with experience really makes a difference.

Don't worry - dogs treated for cushings can live very happy normal lives. My dog Haley was treated for 4+ yrs and she lived to be 16 1/2 and died of old age = not cushings.

The key is for you to get up to speed on what the disease is so you understand it and can be your dog's voice. I've linked some info for you to read which will get you started.

Interesting about having to swim at night - I assume (just guessing) that your dog is restless and has to swim in order to be tired and sleep. That would be due to the excess cortisol that the body generates - this is what cushings is. Think adrenaline rush. It does seem to be worse at night.

When you use vetoryl or lysodren you are not curing the cushings but you are reducing the amount of cortisol being created and that is how you allow your dog a normal life. So get over the fear and gain knowledge so you can help your dog ... we were all in your shoes so we understand. Just trust us and ask alot of questions. Glad you found us. Kim
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

[Trixie]

My dog (age 9) is on Vetoryl since April. No side effects so far, however we started on a very low dose. My dog weighed about 15 pounds at that time and we started on only 12mg per day, divided into 2 doses am/pm.
We did acth testing to check the levels a few times and steadily but slowly increased the dose over these last 5 months. We are now at 28mg a day. (14mg 2x a day), I think she weighs about 16-17lbs now-a reslut of that crazy hunger. Finally we are seeing a change...water intake is way down, and other symptoms also decreasing. She's so much better.

I was so nervous to give the drug too but I knew we needed to stop all that cortisol flooding her system and wreaking havoc on her liver.

Don't start on a high dose...a good place to begin is 1mg per pound of your dog...she may end up needing more, or she may not but you can't hurt by being too low. It just may take a little longer to see a change, but you will avoid side effects by low and slow. The good thing with this drug is if you do see lethargy and vomiting you just stop giving the drug.

Everyone here is great, they will help you through and give you great advice. Your dog can get better so give the medication a chance and if you have a good vet to work with you should do just fine.

Barbara

[mytil]

Hi and welcome from me as well.

I know many here who have had great success with Vetoryl.

But I too have a few questions first ---- Please let us know the reason your Sadie has been on Amitriptyline?

I have never used this, but here are some of the side effects listed: lip licking and feeling thirstier could mean increase water intake and problems with urine retention.

Others include upset stomach, cause blood pressure to lower, increased heart rate, can alter blood sugar levels and weight gain.

Please post the numeric results of all the tests performed to come to this diagnosis of Cushing's.

Also what is the Vetoryl dosage your vet prescribed?

Keep us posted
Terry

[1avrgjoe]

Sadie weight-74 lbs
Tests- ACTH (I think) Results 3 months ago 500 (150 Normal)
Tests- Acth 2 weeks ago result 1000
Symptoms- Drinks a lot, pees a lot, always hungry/begging, some lethargy, belly growing, restless, whining, pacing at night, she seems scared at night maybe disoriented.

Sadie weighs 74 pounds. The vet gave her dose 120mg Vetoryl daily. I don't remember what the tests were, I think it was the ACTH test. I had to leave her there for full days. 1st 3 months ago, then a couple weeks ago. I remember the normal Liver levels for the test were 150, she was at 500 for 1st test, and almost 1000 on the 2nd. I noticed some changes last summer/fall, we took a long hike w/my nephew and his dog end of September. Sadie seemed very tired about halfway through. She came to me during the hike and she let me know she didn't want to go on, she wanted to go back to the truck. There was another hike in December 2012 where she felt sick and came to me in distress. She didn't want to take the long walks in the woods anymore. Sometimes she wanted to go home w/in 50 yards of the house which was crazy. We would take long walks, sometimes 4 or 5 miles on the trails near my house. She started drinking lots of water, and peeing more. Then in spring, about 6 months ago I think, so March-April she would start whining when my wife was in the room w/us. The whining got worse, and if she didn't get exercise she would be restless. When it got warm I started taking her swimming every day. If we swam together for a long time, like 2 hours, she would be ok. But her whining is getting worse. She was prescribed Amytriptaline to calm her down. It worked ok and helped her sleep. I take it to sleep also, it's a good sedative w/no addictive side effect. I didn't want to give her Benzo's (Valium, Xanax) which the vet mentioned early on.

[frijole]

Whining is not a sign of cushings and has me concerned that something else is going on, perhaps something causing pain. Scratching my head... Kim

[mytil]

Hi again,

When you can, post the letters after the numbers you posted (i.e. ug/dl or nmol). Was the ACTH the only diagnostic test performed?

I agree whining and pacing are not normal symptoms for Cushing's and am wondering if there is something else going on or a reaction to the Amitriptyline.

Another side effect of Amitriptyline is muscle weakness and collars and dips/liquids that are used for flea control should not be used on a dog that’s taking amitriptyline, and the vet will most likely not prescribe the drug until at least two weeks after flea control measures are discontinued. I know this drug interacts with the nervous system and brain so I am wondering (out loud) if Sadie is having some kind of reaction with the whining and pacing (being upset).

Cushing's is a slow progressing disease and I would certainly see about what is going on with the other symptoms.

What does your vet say about this?
Terry

[1avrgjoe]

I thought the whining was a response to cortisol which is a stress hormone correct? The whining began before the Amytriptaline was prescribed. She had tick medicine in the beginning of September. She doesn't have pain, she's still active during the day, we are still swimming almost every day, she runs and can jump down from my truck which is about 3 feet. (I lift her up when she gets in and down when out. Some days she tells me she wants to go into the truck on her thick cushioned bed in the back of the cab, but she jumps out when she needs to, like when she thinks we're eating).

[1avrgjoe]

I saw another vet. He said that the treatment wouldn't do much for her, and that it's more for the owner than the dog. I'm very confused now, I will put more info on the labs up. Is not using the Vetoryl going to be a mistake?

[Squirt's Mom]

I thought the whining was a response to cortisol which is a stress hormone correct?

No, whining is not a sign of Cushing's nor elevated cortisol. Elevated cortisol is the result of stress, it doesn't cause stress. When this hormone is elevated, the pup can become restless but whining is not typically seen with elevated cortisol. So, in my mind, the whining is a sign of something unrelated to the Cushing's. Here is a list of the common signs seen in canine Cushing's -

The most common symptoms include:
• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures

One of the side effects of Amitriptyline in dogs is hyper-excitability so the drug itself could be part of the reason for the whining, IF it is caused by stress alone.

http://www.petmd.com/pet-medication/amitriptyline#.UkGnyhBHZk0

While your vet is partially right, we also know that prolonged exposure to high elevations of cortisol will damage the kidneys, heart and other organs. The goal of treatment is NOT to cure the disease, but simply to control the signs and lower the cortisol back to a level the body can better handle. Here is a link that tells a bit about what happens in an untreated cush pup -

Complications from untreated Cushing’s –
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[frijole]

Any vet that tells you that treating cushings is for the owner and not the dog is a CLUELESS vet. Run away from that office. I mean that. Kim

[mypuppy]

Hi and welcome,

Agreed with Kim. Walk/run away from that vet as fast as you can. Vetoryl treatment gave me 4 years with my girl against the vet who told me not to treat and that she was drinking and peeing out of bad behavior. Really! Get a second opinion from an internal medicine specialist, get the necessary tests performed, including abdominal ultrasound if possible and proceed with treatment at the conservative dose and adjust accordingly. Do your research, stay on board here and in no time you will have the knowledge to be proactive and diligent in your baby's healthcare.

Praying and wishing for smooth sailing in order to proceed with treatment.

Tight hugs. xo Jeanette

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh, what a horrid, ignorant thing to say. A dog on appropriate treatment, with a good vet and vigilant owner, can live out a normal lifespan. It is usually something else that gets them rather than cushings. Once you control the cortisol, the symptoms usually disappear.
No whining isn't something I've heard of being associated with cushings and we have tons of members, someone would have mentioned that, many someones probably, if it were a symptom.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[LtlBtyRam]

Here's hoping you get Sadie's symptoms under control. Welcome to the forums of PAWSOME folks.
Angela