Hello, new with questions (10 y/o Australian Cattle Dog)

[Opalcl]

Hi all, I have a ten year old Australian Cattle Dog whose vet has determined she has Cushings. I spent a good deal of time reading posts yesterday and drove out to the clinic today to pick up lab work to provide those numbers but after getting it home and reviewing it, I realize there's not really anything you have asked other posters about and they only gave me one day's results.

We have done several urinalysis and blood work but haven't proceeded with any further testing. The out of range results of those tests are:

ALT (SGPT) 182 (high)
ALK Phosphatase 249 (high)
Phosphorus 1.8 (Low)
Cholesterol 440 (high)
Specific gravity 1.007 (Low)
PH 7.5 (high)

My questions are actually about some of her behaviors. I am trying to figure out if they are Cushings related or if she is also experiencing senility. For example, when my son was little, if he would go near the front or back door, she would bark frantically and block him from the door. She was worried he would get out and she was trying to protect him. He's a teenager now and she has started barking aggressively at him if he opens the pantry door. Another thing is she has always stolen socks and gloves and taken them to her crate. When she has "loot" she will stay in her crate all day protecting it if you let her. When I would remove the items, she would rejoin the family. That eventually evolved into her hiding out in her crate and behaving like she had stolen something when she hadn't. Then about three years ago she just started spending most of her time in the crate. If I called her, she would come excitedly but then get anxious about her "loot" and run back to the crate even though she hadn't actually stolen anything. About two years ago we got a new puppy and that seemed to lift her spirits and she stopped hanging out in her crate, but that didn't last long.

Thank you!
Carol

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Carol and welcome to you and your baby! :)

If this is the only test she has had done, your vet cannot know whether she has Cushing's or not as this test tells nothing about cortisol or other hormones which are the enemy in Cushing's. In addition, based on the behaviors you described, that is not what we see as signs of Cushing's. So neither that test nor her signs indicate Cushing's at this point. Do not let your vet order meds for her nor start your girl on any treatment for Cushing's.

The guarding is a behavioral issue in my mind, perhaps psychological. Just like humans, dogs can get a bit neurotic at times. Personally, I don't see her behaviors as senile, either. ;) If this is troublesome to you, I would contact an animal behaviorist and work with them. The signs commonly seen with Cushing's are as follows -

• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html

Have you observed any of these signs in your baby girl?

Does she have any health issues that you are aware of?

Is she on any meds, herbs, or supplements?

Does she get plenty of exercise and mental stimulation every day? ACDs are working dogs, highly intelligent and active, and need a job to do....even if the only position open is guarding loot. You might look into agility or flyball...something along those lines may help her feel useful. ;)

I'm glad you decided to chat with us and look forward to learning more soon. Others will be along soon to chat as well.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[LtlBtyRam]

Hi welcome to the forums. I just got brave enough to start posting so I'm new around here too. These folks are PAWSOME!
Angela

[mytil]

Hi and welcome from me as well.

Leslie has started off by giving a list of typical symptoms associated with Cushing's.

I would not treat with meds either unless some additional testing is done (LDDS, ACTH and an ultrasound).

Has any additional testing been performed re: thyroid levels? I know hypothyroidism can cause elevated cholesterol and behavioral changes. The other elevations in the blood chem are high, but not incredibly high as seen in typical Cushing's cases.

BTW, I love cattle dogs (I have 2 mixed).

Keep us posted
Terry

[Opalcl]

Hi and thanks for the responses. Yes, about two years ago we noticed her water intake increasing. She drinks about 3/4 a gallon a day now and has difficulty holding her urine and has had some accidents. She does well to last seven hours through the night before waking me to let her out. She pants a lot now and has the exercise intolerance whereas, of course being a cattle dog, she used to be very active. She used to always eat her food as soon as it was put down but now she guards it for long periods before eating it. She did gain weight a while back and the vet had me decrease her food from one cup twice a day to 3/4 cup twice a day. She also has been having episodes at night that I have seen others describe - when she sleeps she starts making noises like she is trying to bark and her limbs all start moving like she is trying to run. I am able to wake her from this.

Something else that is going on is that she now hears every little sound that goes on outside during the night and barks at these noises. I have a neighbor who comes home at all hours of the night and she now barks every time he comes home even though he's been doing this her entire life. Which leads me to another issue that I have wondered if might be signs of senility, my husband has been on night shift for two years now. For the first year and a half, she carried on like someone was breaking into the house every single night he came home. Now she still does about two to three times a week.

I have a call in to the vet to ask what values she was looking at in the blood work. Thanks!

[Opalcl]

Ok, just got off the phone with one of the vets and he said that Alkaline phosphatase is a test that if higher than the normal range can be indicative of Cushings and Urine specific gravity lets them see that the urine is dilute and that she is drinking excessive amounts of water. He said between those results and the symptoms of excessive water intake and urination and the panting, etc. those are all indicators of Cushings.

I also discussed with him the behavioral issues I posted here as well as others we've experienced including some aggressive behaviors. He feels that she is experiencing the canine equivalent of senility as well as some anxiety issues. We are going to try Hills B/D (brain diet). Has anyone researched this to find out if it is possible to provide the same therapy with supplements and which is more cost effective?

And for the Cushings, does the group have any opinions on lignans versus phosphatidylserine?

Thanks so much!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Carol,

Welcome to you and your girl from me as well. All the symptoms your girl is displaying can be attributed to Hypothyroidism as well as Cushing's, especially the sudden behavioral changes. I'm providing a link to an article written by Dr Dodds who is known for her expertise in canine thyroid problems :Behavioral Issues with Thyroiditis (http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/thyroiditisbehavior.html) Has any thyroid issue been ruled out?

Love and hugs, Lori

[Opalcl]

They only provided me with a copy of one set of labs and there are not any thyroid tests on them. I know there was other blood work done before they started doing urinalysis and I would imagine they ran these tests but I will call and make sure. I used to work for this practice and I know they are very thorough. Thanks!

[Squirt's Mom]

And for the Cushings, does the group have any opinions on lignans versus phosphatidylserine?

Not sure why these two are grouped together. Lignans are a fiber found in plants that often have estrogen properties, called phytoestrogens. Flax or spruce lignans are used in conjunction with melatonin to treat a form of Cushing's called Atypical in which the cortisol is normal but one or more of five intermediate, or sex, hormones are elevated.

Phosphatidylserine is a chemical, both natural and synthetic, used to treat issues like dementia, ADHD, Alzheimer's, depression and other things in humans. In dogs it is used in much the same way - but not to treat Cushing's. It has no properties that will benefit Cushing's. I gave PS100 to Squirt for a couple of years after reading an article in her IMS' office that talked about its protective properties for the older brain.

Neither one will control cortisol. ;)

As for the Hill's - that is one of the worst feeds on the market, prescription feeds included. I just looked at the ingredients in the hopes they were actually making improvements - but no. Still a corn and sodium based feed more suited to cows than carnivores with grape pumice added. Grapes are toxic to dogs and I wouldn't trust Hill's to process them correctly to prevent poisoning the dogs eating this feed. Sorry. I have absolutely no respect for this company nor its products. I ask our vet in TN once why her clinic stocked and sold Hill's. Her reply was that they (vet students) spent maybe one day in all her years of education on nutrition....and the ones to present the "lectures" included personnel from Hills. Then these representatives try to make contracts with the students that when they graduate that they agree to sell Hill's if at all possible. She told me that Hill's was as much a force in vet schools as lobbyists on Capitol Hill, that they literally hounded her for months prior to her graduation, dogged her until she found a clinic to work for, pressuring her to remember to promote their products in the business she ended up with. Our current vet told me basically the same thing when asked - because that's what they told him to sell in vet school. Hill's came out with another new form a year or so ago that they were touting as "natural". Doc tried to point to that feed to tell me how much they had improved their feed. When I had him compare the ingredients - they were basically the same, corn and salt in various forms. Hill's used to be an excellent feed when Dr. Morris, the vet who developed it, had control of the formula. But he sold it to Nestle' who took his formula and changed it, using much cheaper and lower quality ingredients which did nothing to improve the food or benefit the dogs eating it but sure did increase their profit margin. ;) I'm not saying don't feed it - just don't expect it to do what they claim it will.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Opalcl]

Ok, from this website: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjcushings.html I read: Article by CJ Puotinen and Mary Straus, published in the Whole Dog Journal, November 2011 Phosphatidylserine (PS), a phospholipid derived from lecithin, has been demonstrated to have a natural cortisol-suppressive effect on the adrenal glands. It can also help with cognitive dysfunction. Oral PS is available both by itself and in many combination supplements.

So, is this incorrect information or have they maybe learned something new since you researched this?

Thanks!

[Squirt's Mom]

Melatonin also has the ability to lower cortisol, but not enough to control the amounts released in Cushing's. This is the first I've heard of PS having the same ability so I would imagine it is also not as effective against the massive amounts caused by Cushing's but could be effective in cases of transient or acute elevations.