Newbie-14 yr old Chihuahua, Cushing's, arthritis

[Shoo Hoo]

A friend of mine just came back from overseas for the sake of seeing her beloved dogs (14 & 12 yr. old Chiwawahs) only to find out that the younger one got run over by a car a few weeks before her arrival & the older one has cushing's disease, arthritis, liver problems & has been on all kinds of medications.

It's been only 2 weeks since she's been back. She's confused, depressed & not sure if these drugs are going to help or just make things worse with possible side effects especially considering the dog's old age. I feel so bad for her & the dog. I try to advice her by telling her to try some natural remedies (all of which i've seen cure many animals before) for the arthritis & liver disease by giving him with correct dosage (according to dog's weight) of Dandelion extract, Organic Virgin Coconut Oil, Sea Salt...But i don't want to tell her to stop the medications even though i've read many places that the best thing to do is to stop these meds for cushing's disease immediately.

I don't know enough about cushing's disease or the dogs exact prognosis & my friend is too dazed & confused & depressed to be able to explain the details to me. I did find out that there are 3 types of Cushing's disease & that her dog has the 'Adrenal' kind of Cushing's Disease.

So he's on 'Veterol' 30 mgs. The dosage used to be 'every other day' but recently ( I guess due to loss of appetite) the vet had told her to start giving it just every 3-4 days

For Arthritis he's on 'Meloxicam' 7.5 mgs. It's supposed to be cut into 4-6 pieces for each dosage. Administered once a day.

For his coughs he's on 'Lasix' 12.5 mgs. I'm pretty sure it's to be used in case he coughs a lot. Not as a regimen but just whenever its' necessary.

So i'm hoping that ppl here could help me help her. The dog's been feeling lethargic & unable to walk these past 2 days. We suspect a few things...

1- Guests at her house had given her dog some chicken table scraps & his stomach was upset later that day. Yesterday she took the dog to the vet & he decided to give him antibiotics for either the stomach or infection in mouth/tartar ....& this may be the reason he's so lethargic the next day.

2- The drugs are causing side effects.

3- The antibiotic shot given by his vet, 2 days ago is causing his lethargy & lack of appetite....

I don't know. It's so confusing. We don't know if it's chain reactions (either related to whether, atmosphere, drug side effects, the food he ate, the anti biotic, the dog feeling her depression) or individual or new reasons.

So hard to figure out what's wrong. what to do. What not to do. So today, I tried reading about these drugs & there's so many side effects involved & so much to consider that it only confused me further.

I guess my question for now is...Are these drugs with these dosages really the best bet for a 14 yr. old small dog who only weighs 14 lbs.??

Could any of them be causing ups & downs in his energy, appetite & ability to walk? Cuz even his walking abilities fluctuated many times in the 2 weeks since my friends been back. One day he's fine & goes for walks, without losing his strength. The next day he can't even stand up or walk normal.

Please leave me any info. & advice about these drugs & his symptoms. What are the best options for 'Adrenal' type of Cushing's disease? Are there other options such as surgery?

I really want to help but i don't know which is the best route. It's all so confusing & these drugs with all the symptoms & don't seem

Thanks in advance.

[Junior's Mom]

Welcome to the forum. It is filled with great people, who have tons of knowledge. The first thing they will say is collect any tests results from the vet, so they can get an idea of what's going on.
STOP the vetoryl immediately. Lethargy, vomiting are signs of overdose. Does your friend have prednisone on hand? The dog may need it if it has gone in to an addison state. It will not hurt to stop it.
The dose prescribed is high, and vetoryl is not meant to be given every few days. It is to be given every day, sometimes twice a day depending on symptoms.

[addy]

I am really sorry to read about all the problems your friends faced with her pups when returning home. If you have access to any test results and could post the abnormal results that would be great.


So he's on 'Vetoryl' 30 mgs. The dosage used to be 'every other day' but recently ( I guess due to loss of appetite) the vet had told her to start giving it just every 3-4 days

Since Vetoryl peaks about 1-2 hours after administering the dose and leaves the body usually within eighteen hours or less, I see no value in this dosing schedule. Loss of appetite could be a sign of cortisol going too low. I would hope the proper ACTH testing has been done to monitor cortisol. I will say also we have seen vets go this dosing route and it always seems pointless and I can only surmise perhaps they either have no experience with the drug or the they dont know what to do.

Your friend can call Dechra to inquire if the dosing schedule is appropriate.


I do want to add the drugs we use to control Cushings help many dog's lives so while they may seem scary- they are indeed necessary for many dogs so we would not want to lump them all together into a blanket statement:


But i don't want to tell her to stop the medications even though I've read many places that the best thing to do is to stop these meds for cushing's disease immediately.

For some dogs with other serious illnesses, it may be that not treating the disease would be the right thing to do.

With so many things going on with the pup I guess we would question the validity of the diagnosis to start so any testing or further information to how the diagnosis was made would really help us start to put the pieces together.

I am glad you found us and your friend is very lucky to have you:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and this baby! :)

You are an angel to try to help your friend! If possible, we might need to talk directly with her at times so ya'll let us know which we are talking to, 'k? :D


A friend of mine just came back from overseas for the sake of seeing her beloved dogs (14 & 12 yr. old Chiwawahs) only to find out that the younger one got run over by a car a few weeks before her arrival & the older one has cushing's disease, arthritis, liver problems & has been on all kinds of medications.

What a terrible thing to come home to! :( Bless her heart.

Ask your friend to get copies of all the testing done to diagnose these various conditions and post the actual results here. That will help us give more meaningful feedback and allow us to sort of double check things. We are NOT vets but we have seen lots of lab work and have folks here who understand most of them.

It's been only 2 weeks since she's been back. She's confused, depressed & not sure if these drugs are going to help or just make things worse with possible side effects especially considering the dog's old age.

14 is certainly up there but a Chi can live many more years - even with Cushing's so don't let age enter into things at this point.

I feel so bad for her & the dog. I try to advice her by telling her to try some natural remedies (all of which i've seen cure many animals before) for the arthritis & liver disease by giving him with correct dosage (according to dog's weight) of Dandelion extract, Organic Virgin Coconut Oil, Sea Salt...

One of Dandelion's actions is as a diuretic which means it causes urination. Excess urination is one of the signs of Cushing's so adding Dandelion to a cush pup can create a confusing picture because we couldn't know if the excess peeing was due to the disease or the herb. ;)

But i don't want to tell her to stop the medications even though i've read many places that the best thing to do is to stop these meds for cushing's disease immediately.

Not sure where you are reading this but that is dangerous advice for a cush pup who is controlled on the only meds that can offer real management of this disease. So please do not take that crap to heart. These meds are life-savers for cush pups...and there is nothing else out there that has been proven to be so. There are herbs and supplements that can help but they are much less likely to affect the cortisol, which is the enemy of Cushing's and is what causes damage throughout the system. Both drugs are very powerful but very effective. There are two keys to successful treatment - a cush savvy vet and an educated, diligent parent. When these to factors are in place, these drugs are no more dangerous than aspirin when use correctly.


I don't know enough about cushing's disease or the dogs exact prognosis & my friend is too dazed & confused & depressed to be able to explain the details to me. I did find out that there are 3 types of Cushing's disease & that her dog has the 'Adrenal' kind of Cushing's Disease.

So he's on 'Veterol' 30 mgs. The dosage used to be 'every other day' but recently ( I guess due to loss of appetite) the vet had told her to start giving it just every 3-4 days

Well, this is scary. Vetoryl has a very short life in the body. Within 2-12 hours after taking the dose, the drug is leaving the system. So using Vetoryl every other day, much less every 3-4 days, is a total waste of time. This tells me that her vet is not very well versed in the use of this drug and perhaps has limited understanding and experience with Cushing's.

For Arthritis he's on 'Meloxicam' 7.5 mgs. It's supposed to be cut into 4-6 pieces for each dosage. Administered once a day.

Cush pups should NOT take NSAIDS as they are very hard on the liver and cortisol is already causing this organ to work much too hard. This is another sign this vet does not understand Cushing's. There are other alternatives like Adequan, Dasuquin and others the vet should know about or at least be willing to look into for her.

In addition, adding NSAIDS to a liver that has already been diagnosed as diseased is risky. NSAIDS are incredibly hard on the liver.

For his coughs he's on 'Lasix' 12.5 mgs. I'm pretty sure it's to be used in case he coughs a lot. Not as a regimen but just whenever its' necessary.

Has he been diagnosed with heart disease?

So i'm hoping that ppl here could help me help her. The dog's been feeling lethargic & unable to walk these past 2 days. We suspect a few things...

Stop the Vetoryl NOW and have an ACTH done as well as the electrolytes checked at the same time. This is a sign that the pup is overdosed - tho how on such a whacky dosing schedule I can't imagine but I wouldn't want to take a chance his cortisol is too low. That can be a life-threatening event.

How is his appetite? Any loose stools or nausea?

1- Guests at her house had given her dog some chicken table scraps & his stomach was upset later that day. Yesterday she took the dog to the vet & he decided to give him antibiotics for either the stomach or infection in mouth/tartar ....& this may be the reason he's so lethargic the next day.

2- The drugs are causing side effects.

3- The antibiotic shot given by his vet, 2 days ago is causing his lethargy & lack of appetite....

If I were your friend, I would spend some time today finding another vet to take a look at my baby. Fresh eyes might just do wonders...and I'm not real impressed with the current vet based on what you have shared. He may be excellent but so far isn't displaying an understanding of the disease he is treating and that is dangerous. She does not have to find a specialist, IMS, at this point but I would want someone other than this vet to look at my baby. THEN if it is determined his case is a bit more complicated, an IMS may be needed.

I don't know. It's so confusing. We don't know if it's chain reactions (either related to whether, atmosphere, drug side effects, the food he ate, the anti biotic, the dog feeling her depression) or individual or new reasons.

So hard to figure out what's wrong. what to do. What not to do. So today, I tried reading about these drugs & there's so many side effects involved & so much to consider that it only confused me further.

I guess my question for now is...Are these drugs with these dosages really the best bet for a 14 yr. old small dog who only weighs 14 lbs.??

Since the Vetoryl isn't being used correctly this is basically a moot question. We use the other drug, Lysodren, and I have a very difficult time keeping up with Vetoryl protocols so I will let those who do use it discuss the dosage with you.

Could any of them be causing ups & downs in his energy, appetite & ability to walk? Cuz even his walking abilities fluctuated many times in the 2 weeks since my friends been back. One day he's fine & goes for walks, without losing his strength. The next day he can't even stand up or walk normal.

Are his off days the days he gets the Vetoryl? What is different about his off days?

Please leave me any info. & advice about these drugs & his symptoms. What are the best options for 'Adrenal' type of Cushing's disease? Are there other options such as surgery?

Yes, surgery can mean a cure for the adrenal based Cushing's but it is one of the riskiest surgeries a pup can have if the tumor is pressing on the vena cava. The adrenal form can also be treated via the standard drugs. Has he had an ultrasound to confirm this is ADH and not PDH? Most cush pups, 85%, have the pituitary form, PDH.

I really want to help but i don't know which is the best route. It's all so confusing & these drugs with all the symptoms & don't seem

Thanks in advance.

I'm glad you found us and look forward to learning more about you and this baby. We will be with you all the way - ya'll are no longer alone. You are family here now. All you ever need to do is holler and someone will be there.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

From our Helpful Resource section -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I will add that dosing recommendations are now to start at 1mg/1lb. At 14lbs, and 30mg vetoryl, it is a definite possibility that it is too much.
I have no idea what this vet is thinking with this dosing schedule as it does not follow anything that I have ever ready from either the Dechra, the maker of vetoryl or any specialist who has studied the drug.
You give it once a day, so 14mg per day, morning with a bit of food, or if symtoms remain in the evening, you can split the dose (not yourself) and give 7mg morning and 7 mgs evening, 12 hours apart.
I would definitely at this point, Stop the vetoryl, have an ACTH and electrolytes tested, then when symptoms come back of cushings, look at starting at least at the recommended dose and following protocols for testing.
This is a link to our Resource section: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

This a link that will give you some more information on Trilostane: http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=491107&sk=&date=&pageID=3

I'm so glad you found us. As others mentioned if you can get copies of the tests done up to now, we can help to decipher them and see what is going on. But for now, definitely stop the vetoryl. It's better not to take chances, and stopping does no harm.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hello and welcome to the forum. If it were my dog I would stop the Vetoryl. This is a small dog and I feel it may be overdosed as the weakness and loss of appetite are signs of that. I would also stop the table scraps and give the dog a low density medium protein diet. A dog with Cushings can easily get pancreatitis form fat. It is a painful condition also. I caution you on natural remedies as none are known to work, and the dandelion can be bad for them. If the natural remedies worked we would all be using them and there would be no need for this forum. Only Lysodren and Vetoryl/Trilostane are known to manage the cortisol causing the problems. Please find a vet experienced in Cushings. It will save you time, money and heartache. Starting out at a high dose with the Vetoryl/Trilostane can be asking for trouble. Start low and let the dog become adjusted to it. As was said before 1mg per lb. At 30 you are doubling and then some what the dosage should be. So you have prednisone? If not you really need to get some as the dog could be going or already in Addisons. Please look into this for the well being of the dog. I hope all goes well. You can count on the people on here to help you, they are very experienced. I commend you for trying to help this dog while your friend is ill. Could you please post all the dogs test results confirming the Cushings diagnosis so others may help you? Blessings
Patti

[Budsters Mom]

Hello and welcome from me too. :)
I am so sorry that your friend had to return from overseas to get that kind of news about her pups. That is heartbreaking.:o

It looks like you're off to a good start here. I just wanted to drop in and say hi.:) Please let your friend know that we will do all we can to help her and her precious fur baby.