Our sweet Brin has passed - Spicey (our beloved Spicey has passed away)

[Spiceysmum]

Hi All,

Spicey is still doing really well and has been off Trilostane for 8 months now. It seems amazing as she was only supposed to be having a weeks break then starting back on a lower dose after her last ACTH results were pre 0.3 and post 0.9. At that time she had no symptoms of being low and so we wouldn't have known if it wasn't for the test results.

She is exactly the same now, still loves her food (pre cushings she used to eat half and go back for the rest later) drinks normally and is quite lively for a 13 year old.

I don't think her numbers have risen much as she has started biting her feet now the allergy season has started. She had the worst season ever last year obviously because her cortisol was too low although we didn't know at the time. She suffers from atopy and has had an immunotherapy injection every month since she was a year old.

Our other dog Brin, a 13 year old springer spaniel, has recently gone deaf. He seems sad and confused some of the time and must be wondering why we don't speak to him anymore! He uses Spicey as his ears and so knows when anyone is approaching or we're calling them for dinner etc!

It is so good that the site is up and running again.

Linda and Spicey

[gpgscott]

Hello Linda and brood,

Very nice to see you back and glad that Spicey continues to do well.

Looking forward to your posts.

Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

Good to have a home again, huh? Glad to see you and Spicey with us, too! :D

Really nice to hear that she is still in remission and doing well. That is always good to hear!

I had a deaf and blind Dane, Dinah, who attached to my shepherd as her guide. Somehow she always knew where Syra was and would respond as she did. I'm glad Brin has Spicey to help him.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

How are things at your house?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Leslie,

Thanks for asking, we have had a busy year, some good and some bad.

Spicey is still doing well, no signs of Cushings returning although she is always hungry. Sometimes I think she is a bit more lethargic than usual but I think that's just her age, on the whole she is great.

Brin has taken over on the financial side now! Besides being nearly deaf he has got SIBO but is alot better after his B12 injections and antibiotics. I just hope his symptoms don't return now he has finished the course.

My mother-in-law passed away in March. She lived a five minute walk away and we saw her and looked after her every day. She had COPD and another lung disease and it was terrible watching her suffer. We bought her house so that my daughter, husband and four children could buy our house and get back on the housing market after renting a 2 bedroomed bungalow. So we've had lots of work to do. Recently my Uncle, who helped bring us up, died too so it's been a sad time.

Our Grandchildren have always lived close and it's great seeing them every day, even though they wear me out sometimes! They are all under 8.

Well, thats my news. I try to come here every day, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day and keep up with everyone.

Linda and Spicey x

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

Good to hear that Spicey is still doing well! Nothing wrong with a good appetite, especially when they reach their Golden Years! ;)

Poor Brin, he has been through the ringer! :( SIBO can be hard on them and hard to get a handle on, but it sounds like he is doing just fine under your loving care. Sue's Zoe has SIBO, too, and they use Tylan with good results. If Brin does have problems again, she would be a good one to talk with...but of course you already know that, huh? ;)

Ain't grandkids wonderful!? I have 2 grandsons and they have really deepened my life. As much as we love our kids, their kids bring a different love to us and one that has no comparison. It's great that yours are so close to you now...even tho they can be exhausting, you can send these home! :p

I am so sorry to hear of the losses in your life. :( I know that has to be tough on you and yours. My sympathy goes out to you and your family.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Linda,

I wanted to offer my sympathy to you for the loss of your mother-in-law and uncle, that is one of the unfortunate things we live with as we get older, seeing those that we love and hold dear to our heart, pass on.

Glad too, that Spicey is well and no signs of Cushings returning...YAAA. :D:D:D

I hope Brin's symptoms don't return now he has finished the course of B12 injections and antibiotics either. We will pray that they don't.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hello All,

Spicey has not been well since yesterday and I could do with some help and advice. She did not get up to greet me yesterday morning and did not want to eat, which is very unusual as she has been really greedy for 3 years now since just before her Cushings diagnosis. She eventually ate a few mouthfuls, I think her head wanted to eat but her body didn't.

She didn't move from her bed all day only when I got her to go outside before we went to the vets. She was very weak and didn't really want to be up.

The vet examined her and couldn't find any obvious reasons, her heart was fine and her temperature etc. They did blood tests while we waited and the 'high' results were:

Alk Phos 631 U/L (0-160)
ALT 471 U/L (0-110)
Cholestrol 9.8 mmol/l (2.9-8.2)
Urea 10.7 mmol/l (1.7-9.8)

I was expecting the liver values to be high anyway as I had said to my usual vet last week that her drinking had been increasing slightly for the last 2 months and she has had 3 accidents in the house and I thought that her Cushings symptoms were coming back slowly after 16 months off the Vetoryl. This was a new vet and she thought that the results show that it was probably the Cushings that was making her ill, but I have my doubts as she was never like this at her worst before starting treatment. FYI her results just before she was diagnosed 3 years ago were Alk Phos 1000+ (don't know exactly)
and ALT 33. It seems strange to me that the ALT is so high this time but was normal then.

The new vet thinks we should now do and ACTH, LDDS and maybe an ultrasound, in that order, to see whats going on. I agree she needs testing but I really think its something else wrong with her, maybe still with her liver, I don't know. It's the not eating and being so weak that makes me think this. Also her first ever ACTH was negative so if the next one comes back within range does this mean it's negative or 'high for a Cushings dog'? I am so confused and don't know where to go from here.

The vet wanted to give her an anti-inflammatory injection incase it was a pain issue but I didn't really want that as she had Rimadryl (sp)
once before and was sick so she just had a painkiller injection. I also read that Rimadryl is not really suitable for dogs with liver problems.

Spicey did get up to go out this morning but still looks weak. She stared at her breakfast for a few minutes then ate it. She has been lying down ever since. I feel sad for her but glad she is home. I really thought they would be giving me bad news yesterday.

Any ideas and advice would be greatly welcomed. Sorry for the long post!

Linda and Spicey

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Linda,

Just wanted to offer my support. I think you're right about there being something non cushings related about the way Spicey is behaving, especially if she didn't behave like this before or during her cushings journey.

I really hope it's nothing serious, and that you find out what it is real soon, so Spicey can feel well again.

Jane and Franklin xx
________
Easy Vape Ebay (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Linda,

If I were you I would have the ultrasound done, the two main things I can think of that would make a pup not want to eat are gall bladder issues and pancreatitis. Both of these, the pancreas and the gall bladder will show up on a ultrasound machine as long as it is done on a well-equipped machine.

Spicey wasn't started on any new meds of any kind was she? When Harley's GP upped his BP meds to 2 a day he lost his appetite and became alittle listless, we had to take him back to just the once a day dose. Certain antibiotics can do the same thing too...just a thought.

On Spicey's lab report was amylase and/or lipase listed?

Sure hope Spicey is feeling better soon and please keep us updated.
Keeping you and Spicey in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

So sorry Spicey isn't feeling well. That really worries us moms and dads when they do that sort of stuff, huh? :( Squirt acts that way from time to time and has for years. It always scares me, especially since her diagnosis, but she is back to acting like her old self in a day or two every time....thank goodness! I really think she's like her old mom and just has days when she don't feel all that perky! :p

Our vet has a blood panel she calls a "senior panel" that goes into more detail than a regular CBC. Does your vet have something like that? Have her electrolytes been checked?

I don't know that I would do another LDDS. I think first I would have the U/S and see what that showed. Then if that and the blood work don't show anything, I would go for the UTK full adrenal panel to check her intermediate hormones along with the cortisol levels. If it were me, I would kinda start over and try to keep the Cushing's in the background as a cause at first....ie look for all other problems first. It always bothers me that when our cush pups get sick the first thought is Cushing's, especially in a baby that has been in remission as long as Spicey.

That's my 2 cents worth! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

Hi! I have a couple thoughts - first off when was the last acth test and what were the results? The lethargy and not eating are both signs that cortisol could be low. Do you still have prednisone on hand? If so, you could try giving one just to see if the energy increases. Giving a single dose would not hurt.

I have 2 senior dogs and both of them are hypothyroid, 1 with cushings so they both love their food. However, I have to get their teeth cleaned 2 x a year. And I can tell when it is time because both of them quit eating and are lethargic. Throwing it out there. Infections can set in and there can be gum pain.

I assume you don't think it is joint pain because you didn't mention anything about the limbs. That is why I mentioned teeth.

Hopefully others will have ideas as well.. keep us posted! Kim

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you all for the replies. Sorry I didn't get back straight away but we were at a family party yesterday. We took the dogs with us as we were staying the night and didn't want to leave them with my daughter. How can two days be so different? I haven't laughed so much for ages reminiscing about our childhood yet the day before I was so upset and worried about Spicey!

Well, Spicey is looking a lot better today. She does not look so weak and depressed and she is eating again, although she did leave some food in her bowl this afternoon. Kim, you could be on to something with the teeth. She broke the top off a tooth a few weeks ago chewing a nylon bone. It made her jump at the time as it went with a load crack. It looked like a clean break and the vet checked it a week or so ago and couldn't see where it came from but didn't see any problems. She hates having her teeth looked at anyway and the vet couldn't keep her mouth open long enough to have a really good look. I will have to get her to try again.

She does look thinner along her back in the last couple of days but she has that much thick fur it is hard to be sure, but it looks like she has a bit of a waist now! She never did lose any weight all of the time she was on Vetoryl or since. Her coat adds a few inches to her width!

I wondered at first if it was joint pain because she was so weak on her legs but the vet didn't seem to think so even though she never checked her legs. It made me wonder because she went downhill so quickly, the day before she had been fine. She seems fine walking now.

Her last ACTH was in October 2008. The results were pre 0.3, post 0.9. That is why we stopped the Vetoryl with a view to starting back on a lower dose but, of course, her symptoms never came back and she has been in remission ever since. She never had any signs of being that low and we would never have known without the ACTH. She has been greedy ever since, until Friday.

Leslie, I don't even know if they do the UTK full adrenal panel over here, it is something I will have to find out. If electrolytes are sodium and potassium then no, they weren't checked. Now she has improved a bit, unless she has another setback, we have got to decide what to do next and in which order. It's obvious from her high Alk Phos and ALT results that her Cushings is starting up again or she has something else wrong with her liver so maybe the ultrasound is a good idea. I just don't like the idea of putting her through it again.

Lori, Spicey is not on any medication at all. Amylase was tested and the result was normal, 916 U/L (500 - 1500).

Jane, thanks for the support. It seems we have alot of decisions to make as there is something going on, whether it be Cushings related or not. Why are my dogs so complicated? I'm sure everyone says the same at some point!

Will keep you informed when I speak to the usual vet this week.

Linda and Spicey

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Well, here we go on the cushing's journey again. Spicey had a ldds test last week and the results are:-
pre 179 (6.48 nmol/l)
4hr 137 (4.96 nmol/l)
8hr 124 (4.49 nmol/l)

This compares to her original ldds test in July 2007 which was:-
pre 119 (4.31 nmol/l)
4hr 118 (4.27 nmol/l)
8hr 110 (3.98 nmol/l)

As you can see her results are higher this time, which I didn't expect as her symptoms are not as bad as last time. She has all of the usual symptoms, excessive drinking and urinating, hunger and weak muscles, and panting. As I know what to look for this time I suppose I have not let the symptoms get as bad as last time before testing.

She is having an ACTH on Thursday with a view to starting on a lower dose (30mg) of Trilostane to what she started on originally (60mg).
FYI she had good ACTH results all of the way through the 15 months of treatment then went really low pre 0.3, post 0.9 in October, 2008.

We would never have known she was that low without testing as she never had any symptoms and funnily enough has been the same ever since until now.

The lab are inclined to think it could be adrenal cushings as the results are all close but that is what they said last time and when we had an ultrasound they were ok. So I don't think we will be having one this time. The vet says the treatment would be the same anyway as we don't use Lysodren over here.

So here's hoping the Trilostane works as well as it did before and the lower dose stops her going too low this time.

Linda and Spicey

[zoesmom]

Aw, shucks, Spicey. Good luck on your new journey with trilo. I know you are in good hands with your mum!!!!! Sue

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Linda,

I'm sorry Spicey's Cushings has returned. Hugs from my home to yours,

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx
________
Genie Vaporizor (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[BestBuddy]

Hi Linda,
Bugger.
I am glad you are starting with a much lower dose this time. You know all the signs so you will pick up any problem very early on. Hopefully the lower dose is all that is needed.
Good luck.
Jenny

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Well, where do we go from here? I thought it would be all plain sailing this time but no, Spicey had the runs this morning. She barked for her breakfast and ate it all and is ok in every other way. Thank goodness I hadn't given her todays dose before I noticed.

It's strange because as I said before she never showed any signs of being very low last time and now after one day on Vetoryl she is like this.

All of her results are higher than in 2007 when she was diagnosed and she was on Vetoryl for 15 months. She had an ACTH on Thursday and the results were pre 5.76 post 20.69 (compared to pre 5.36 post 15.58 back in 2007, which was a negative result). I posted her ldds results a few days ago and these were higher too.

I am waiting for the vet to ring to see what to do now. Any ideas would be welcome.

PS The vets have just rang and the vet that is on duty today said that Vetoryl doesn't cause diarrea so just put her on a bland diet and see how she goes!! I will speak to my usual vet on Monday.

Linda and Spicey

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Linda,

Sorry to hear that Spicey is having problems. I understand that the vet on duty said Vetoryl doesn't cause diarrhea but this is what Dechra's product insert states:


INFORMATION FOR DOG OWNERS :
Owners should be aware that the most common adverse reactions may include: an unexpected decrease in appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, or lethargy and should receive the Client Information Sheet with the prescription. Owners should be informed that control of hyperadrenocorticism should result in resolution of polyphagia, polyuria and polydipsia. Serious adverse reactions associated with this drug can occur without warning and in rare situations result in death (see ADVERSE REACTIONS). Owners should be advised to discontinue VETORYL Capsules and contact their veterinarian immediately if signs of intolerance are observed. Owners should be advised of the importance of periodic follow-up for all dogs during administration of VETORYL Capsules.

The decision as to what to do until you can talk to your regular vet on Monday is up to you but if it was me and this was my Munchie, I wouldn't want go give the meds to a dog who wasn't feeling ok.

Hope Spicey's diarrhea resolves soon and the Vetoryl was not the cause. Give her some extra neck scritchies from me.


Louise

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Linda,

I agree with Louise, just might be the Vetoryl giving Spicey diarrhea. How runny is her diarrhea? I mean, is it just a very soft bowel movement (any form at all) or are we talking the full runs?

Our poor elder pups, at least I know with Harley, when he is given something new to eat it can sometimes give him diarrhea. I guess their GI tract can't handle it all at once so it has to be introduced slowly.

Hope Spicey's poops are firmer soon. Please keep us updated.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Thank you both for the replies.

No, I haven't given Spicey any more Vetoryl and won't until I've spoken to the usual vet on Monday afternoon.

It wasn't full, watery runs but very soft. She must have been trying to hold it for ages, poor thing, as some of it sprayed up the cupboard:eek: I don't know why she never barks to tell us she needs to go out, it was in fact Brin who barked to tell us! She was panting well when I got up and I didn't notice if she had been then. I watched her out of the window and she was straining, I thought then she was constipated! It was in the morning that we noticed she had been in the house.

She has had her food the same since and this morning her poop was nearly normal. So my worry now is do we try her with one more dose on Monday or Tuesday and hope she is no worse than yesterday? I don't think there is any other treatment available here.
My other concern is could there be something else wrong with her. Are there any other conditions that would cause positive ldds and acth tests as well as all of the symptoms of Cushings?

Thanks,
Linda and Spicey

[Harley PoMMom]

maybe thyroid problems.

[Harley PoMMom]

diabetes too, has she been checked for this?

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Lori,

She had blood tests a couple of months ago and the only high results were the usual ALT, Alk Phos and Cholestrol.

NOW go to sleep, ha ha!

Linda and Spicey

[Harley PoMMom]

I really think it's just a GI upset...the Trilostane being new to her system.

You could start her out at a lower dose...10mg or 20mg...build her system up to it gradually. Just a thought on my part. :eek:

Go to bed!! What!! I will eventually!! :p:)

Love and hugs,
Lori

[BestBuddy]

I don't have to go to bed, it's early here.:p

There is an old saying that goes something like when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.

Spicey may just have an upset tummy for any numbers of reasons, maybe the Vetoryl maybe not. By stopping the Vetoryl you will see a big improvement pretty quick and if you wait a few days and restart and it happens again then you may have an answer or at least more info.

Jenny

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you both,

It has put my mind at rest a bit. Perhaps it was just a GI reaction to starting the Vetoryl as she was ok in every other way, still hungry etc. and she is fine now. I suppose we will know more when we try again in a couple of days as I'm sure that is what the vet will tell me to do and I also feel we should do too.

Linda and Spicey

[Harley PoMMom]

One more thing :eek: if it does seem like it is a GI upset...I do suggest L-Glutamine, it is very good for the GI tract. I give it to my boy the morning of his Lysodren day and it really helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Ok, I will try to get some. Is it available from a pet shop or do I have to get it from the vets and is it just a dog thing or is there a human version that can be used?

Right, I will log off first, then you. Unfortunately Karen needs something to keep her awake!!

Linda and Spicey

[Spiceysmum]

Oops, seen you already have!!

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
Sorry your precious Spicey's tummy is upset. And I do remember my IMS telling me to watch for diarrhea while taking the trilo, so I am a bit puzzled your vet said otherwise??? Just the same, I'm glad you are not giving her the trilo until you feel her other problem is resolved and talk to your dr. Once you restart you know which symptoms to watch out for again, and btw, I know Lori is notorious for asking this question to everyone on the forum--Lori sorry for quoting you, but "do you have prednisone on hand"? I do--thanks to Lori because I would have never known to have it on hand myself in the event Princess had any strange episodes while on the trilo. In fact, I had asked my IMS a while back, and she was reluctant to prescribe it to me. Nevertheless, I went to my gp, and insisted on it. Linda, hope Spicey just has a tummy ache and nothing more so you can continue your treatment with her. I'm wishing you and her all the best. Tight hugs, xo Jeanette

[Harley PoMMom]

Harley's vets office does sell L-Glutamine but I buy mine from Monica Segal's web site since she is the one who formulated his diet.

Here is a link to the L-Glutamine I use, incase your intererested:
http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?products_id=103

I believe you can use the human version too.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Thanks for the link Lori, I will look into it.

Jeanette, no I haven't got any prednisone, they don't usually prescribe it along with the Vetoryl over here. I had already thought about asking the vet when I speak to her but I don't know how forceful I can be if she says I don't need it!

Linda and Spicey

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
I know what you mean. As I said, I only learned about the pred. because Lori makes sure to remind everyone here to have it, and that's when I approached my IMS. She also refused to give it to me, but I went to my gp and got it from him. I don't see why some are reluctant to prescribe it just in the event of crisis??? Try to persist and maybe he/she will budge. Good luck. I do hope you get it. I somewhat feel a bit more at ease having it since my IMS and the closest ER hospital to me is an hour's drive. I wouldn't want to wait an hour if something did arise. Of course, I can probably turn that hour into 15 minutes speeding at 100mph--lol. Let me know how you make out please. Luv ya and Spicey. Jeanette

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Spoke to the vet and she said to take a break from the Vetoryl for a week and then start again on a lower dose. So we are going to start on a very low dose of 10mg (Spicey weighs 38lbs) and see how she tolerates that and then depending on the results of the 10 day ACTH up it to 20mg if necessary. She also agreed to give us some pred which makes me feel alot better as we are going away for 4 days during that time so we will have it with us if she takes bad. I have booked the ACTH for 10th May when we get back so we will start the Vetoryl again on 30th April.

Linda and Spicey

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
So glad you will be getting the pred...It does make one feel a bit more at ease when prescribing these meds. Hope Spicey's stim will show some good results and you are able to restart low. Keep us posted please. xo Best regards, Jeanette

[Harley PoMMom]

This sounds like a great plan, Linda. Getting the pred was a really good idea too. Will be looking for the results of Spicey's stim. Our pups...they keep us on our toes, don't they?!?! :eek::D

Love and hugs,
Lori

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
How is Spicey lately. Haven't seen any new updates. Hope all is well. Thinking of you both...xo Jeanette and the Princess

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,

We've just been away in the caravan for the weekend so I haven't had time to update. Spicey is still ok, it is very noticable now that she can't walk too far without getting tired. We are starting the Trilo again on Thursday. I keep thinking that 10mg is very, very low for her 38lbs, but I suppose it's better to be safe than sorry. I just hope she is ok on it so she can feel more like her old self. The improvements the first time round, in 2007, were so dramatic but I keep forgetting that she is 3 years older now at nearly 14 and her body probably won't react the same way. I am looking forward to her having more energy and also I hope she loses her undercoat like she did before. It is really thick and she doesn't like it being brushed so it was great when it all fell out last time! It's just a shame it grows back even thicker eventually!

Linda and Spicey

[Spiceysmum]

Hi everyone,

The results from Spicey's ACTH on 10th May were pre 4.9 post 10 so they have gone down since starting back on Vetoryl. As she hadn't improved any and was on a very low dose we decided to increase the dose to 20mg a day and she is due for the next 10day ACTH on Monday. Her symptoms still don't seem any better, in fact she has been leaking more when asleep than she did before. Also her legs seem a bit stiffer when walking so I think the lower cortisol has shown up some signs of arthritis which she has never suffered from before. To make matters worse the weather here is hot and humid and with the blossom on the trees the air is very heavy so that is affecting her too as she has always suffered from lots of allergies. Bless her, if it's not one thing it's another!

My daughter and family are staying with friends in North Carolina for 3 weeks from next week so we have got their 2 year old dog too so poor Spicey and Brin will be worn out!

Linda and Spicey

[zoesmom]

Hey Linda -

Sounds like a logical move on the dosing. With the stiffness/arthritis, I didn't mind Zoe having a post number in the 5 - up to 8 range, as I felt the slightly higher cortisol level would help keep that in check, to a degree. But Spicey's 10 . . . definitely a little bit too high for the cushings issues. It's a delicate balancing act, for sure. Maybe her numbers will come down enough, now that she's on the 20 mg dose, that the leaking of urine will stop!!!! Fingers crossed. Hugs to Spicey. Sue

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
Looks like Spicey and Princess are on the same cortisol page these days. Princess's last post stim was 10.7 with no or very little resolution of symptoms which is driving me crazy. next stim due on June 1st. In the meantime here's hoping Spiceys symptoms resolve soon on the new dose and yes, I agree when it's not one thing it's another. UGH UGH :( :(. Take care and best regards xo Jeanette

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you Sue and Jeanette,

Yes, I am hoping the increase resolves some of her symptoms but we are not seeing that yet. With her still being on a low dose there is still room for increasing even more but I doubt it will be until after the 30 day stim now as my daughter usually takes us for the tests as my husband can't keep having the time off work and as she will be away for 3 weeks it won't be possible. But as I have found before the cortisol usually decreases more after the 10 day stim so I probably would have waited that long before increasing to 30mg anyway. I know what you mean Jeanette, I was hoping for great things from restarting treatment but it is so different this time, probably due to her being 14 now not 11 like last time!

Linda and Spicey x

[Spiceysmum]

Hi all,

Spiceys ACTH results from the 10 day stim since the increase to 20 mg are pre 3.2 post 7.8. The vet advised increasing again to 30mg and because we have not seen any great improvements I agreed. As I cannot take her for another test until my daughter returns from holiday she will stay on 20 mg for another week then increase to 30mg with a view to having a 14 day stim on June 17th. Hope I'm not rushing this too much but as she is still on a very low dose I am not too worried.

I am also going to try her on Metacam for a couple of weeks to see if it is arthritis that is not helping her recovery.

I was going to ask if anyone had heard of the benefit of, or even tried cider vinegar, then I saw that Nathalie had mentioned it in her thread!
When we were on holiday recently another dog owner said that she always puts a couple of teaspoons in the water bowl and it had stopped her dog leaking urine. When I googled it I couldn't believe all of the other ailments it claims to be good for, arthritis being the main one. Apparently the natural cloudy one is best not the clear one you buy in shops so I am thinking of trying it on both Spicey and Brin. The vet says it shouldn't do any harm and is supposed to help get rid of bacteria. Does anyone have any views, good or bad?

Linda and Spicey

[littleone1]

Hi Linda,

Corky started on 20mg of Trilo. It was increased to 25mg and a little over a month ago, he started taking 31mg a day, dosing twice a day. This is working for him.

I use to give Corky Metacam for his arthritis, but now that he has Cushings, I don't give it to him, as it is a steroid. I give him baby aspirin if he needs it, but he needs to take Pepcid AC so it doesn't bother his stomach.

I'm going to have to try the vinegar. Luckily, Corky hasn't had to take too many baby aspirins.

Terri

[Nathalie]

Hi Linda,

That's interresting about the benefits of apple cider vinegar for arthritis.
I have used it for years for skin issues on dogs and for bug bites for myself - very soothing.
I use an organic type which is 'cloudy' to ensure that pure cider vinegar is all we getting.

Did you find any good dosing recommendation for therapeutic dose? A lot of people use it internally for maintenance but a daily therapeutic dose might need to be quite higher to have a therapeutic effect....

Please do post what you find out if you can.

If Spicey has arthritis you might be interrested in this article http://workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm (http://workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm)

2 of my dogs are on high doses of Esther-C.
Phillip at 64 lbs gets 1000 mg 2x daily and little Sophie who I recently got a firm diagnosis of luxating patellas is on 500 mg 2x per day - she weighs 10 lbs.

When getting started with Esther-C you increase to bowl tolerance (eg. slight runny poops) then slightly cut back and stay on that amount.
Phillip also gets 400 mg of Vitamin E 1x per day with fish oil.

Both are also on Bio-Iso-G (liquid) which consists of biologically active isolates of Glucosamine, MSM Chondroitin.


There are so many products on the market and one works for this dog but not for another .. The reason I choose the Bio-Iso is because Phillips vet has a very arthritic lab mix of her own. This dog has had arthritic issues for many years - she is 11 now and it is working well for her. She also tested the product by taking her off for a while and ... arthric issues came back full blast - putting her back she could observe a very good therapeutic response.

Cheers,
Nathalie

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Nathalie, I rang a cider mill here in the UK and they said that a therapeutic dose for people with arthritis or other ailments would be 2 tablespoons 3 times a day otherwise just once a day for general health benefits. For dogs he said 1 tablespoon in a full water bowl once or twice a day. As I have two dogs sharing the same bowl it would have to be twice a day. So I'm off to order it soon!

Terri, I am just going to try Spicey on the metacam for a couple of weeks so I can see if there is any great improvements. Will the steroid in it affect the ACTH tests much? I am hoping that the cider vinegar will 'kick in' by then and she won't need it any more! Brin has problems with arthritis and urine leaking so I hope it helps them both.

Linda and Spicey

[littleone1]

Hi Linda,

I don't really know if Metacam will have an effect on a stim test, but since Prednisone is a steroid, it might. I've been trying to find more information about this. I've been looking for information about steroids in my very hugh file. I do know that I was advised not to give Corky Metacam. As soon as I find the info I am looking for, I will let you know.

Terri

[Nathalie]

Thanks for the info Linda - I had some reconstructive foot surgery done 10 years ago which left me with osteoarthritis - this is something I am going to look into for myself. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Metacam is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID). (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=10803)

Cheers,
Nathalie

[Spiceysmum]

Well, the vet rang with Spiceys ACTH results while we were on holiday last week and they have actually risen since the last Trilo increase. I should say that the pre number fell slightly to 2.55 but the post number rose to 11. I find this very strange as we have increased gradually from 10mg, then 20mg, to 30mg. I asked if she thought it could be because Spicey now gets very stressed going in for her tests but she didn't think so. It was only after I got off the phone I thought that, if this was the case, then surely the pre number would be higher too. Any ideas anyone?

Spicey doesn't enjoy holidays as much as she used to. She doesn't like going for walks either. It was hot but I don't think that was just the reason. She is better at home but still pants when walking back home after a walk. The vet is going to give her a good checkover when she goes for her immunotherapy injection on Thursday. I don't think it's her heart as she has it checked every month and it's always fine. Probably just old age.

Drinking has reduced to a normal level but she still barks for her food twice a day!

We are going to increase the Trilo to 40mg now to see how that goes.

Linda and Spicey

[mypuppy]

Hi there Linda,
So great to get an update although sorry to hear Spicey's levels increased a bit. I wish I can understand that myself specially since you had just increased dose. UGH UGH. I have heard also that levels can increase if they are stressed at the time of test, but I guess your vet ruled that out. With Princess I am finally seeing resolution. Not drinking excessively, has slowed down with the appetite but now is getting finicky though, she's back to sleeping in the bedroom. It took a little longer due to the lower dose but at least it has finally kicked in. I was concerned there for a while b/c IMS recommended to do a chemistry panel to rule out other conditions if her symptoms had not resolved by the end of this month. We are scheduled to go on vacation in a few days (taking The kids and Princess to the ocean), but I think I still want to do the panel upon our return anyway. How long has it been since Spiceys last dose increase? I hope it is just taking a little longer as Princess's and hope you see some improvement soon. Let us know. Xo Jeanette

[zoesmom]

Hi Linda-

Sorry to hear that Spicey hasn't read the book!!! But then, not many of the dogs here have. :rolleyes:

So with Spicey at 38 lbs, that 40 mg. dose is still very modest (1 mg/lb, basically). We had some similar experiences with Zoe - more than once - where her ACTHs would be creeping up and then, to my amazement, we'd increase her dose and her next ACTH would be even higher!! I could never figure it out. I sometimes wondered if it was because some of her other meds were interferring with the trilo. Does Spicey take anything else?

Oh, and on the metacam, I have to second what the others have said. You have to be verrrry careful when giving an NSAID drug like metacam to a dog with poorly controlled cushings. Zoe's IMS was extremely hesitant to prescribe it for her. She finally gave in and allowed me to give her a smaller than normal dose once a day, but that was after her cortisol fell into a more decent range. It can cause bleeding in the intestinal tract, and can be very dangerous for cush pups. Wonder if they have adequan injections - or the equivalent - there in the UK. Many here use that for their dogs' arthritis. We alternated the metacam (am) with tramadol (pm) which is a pain medication that is much safer for cush pups although it doesn't adress the arthritic joint pain, per se.

Anyway, later, when we learned Zoe had SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth), it made more sense that maybe that condition was what had been influencing her absorption of trilo, and hence, her erratic cortisol numbers. Once we began treating that, I think (just my opinion) that she began to absorb everything more consistently as both her thyroid and cortisol levels finally became more stabilized and stayed that way. I'm not saying that Spicey has that particular problem (SIBO), but I would be suspicious that it may have to do with how she's absorbing the trilo, for whatever reason. Is she prone to digestive upsets or loose stools - IBD type symptoms? Sue

PS - I've forgotten . . . . what dose was she taking when she went low and into remission?

[littleone1]

Hi Linda,

Corky originally started on 20mg of Trilo once a day. His cortisol level also started to creep up. His dosage was increased to 25mg, and a month later, he started taking 31mg, dosing twice a day. He weighs just a little over 18 pounds. After a month on the twice a day dosing, his level dropped a little. So far, his dosage has had to be increased twice.

I hope that Spicey's level will stabilize.

Terri

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

Thank you for the advice.

Jeanette, Spicey has started on the new dose of 40mg today. We had to wait until we got back from our holiday to get more Trilo. Hope you have a great time at the beach, I'm sure Princess will love going in the sea. Spicey only likes a paddle whereas Brin loves it. We kept him on a lead near the sea last week as he is nearly deaf and would probably go out too far! Glad to hear Princess is finally starting to improve.

Sue, Spicey was on 60mg when she went into remission. She had been on that dose for 18 months and did really well and we never would have guessed that she had gone that low because she was still hungry etc. The only other medication that she gets is a monthly immunotherapy injection for atopy. I only gave her the metacam for a few days then stopped it after I read so much about it. I don't actually think her arthritis is that bad, she gets up and down ok and doesn't seem in any pain. It was the rest of the family who said she looked to be walking stiffer but I think that's how she's always walked!

The only time in her life she has had an upset stomach was when we started her on the 30mg Trilo a couple of months ago. That is why we decided to start again on 10mg and work our way up. We have increased to 40mg today. Her main problem now is not wanting to walk far. She gets tired and starts panting. Apart from her ACTH numbers increasing I don't think she does too bad for a 14 year old but I do worry that there may be something else going on besides Cushings.

Terri, this is the 3rd increase in Trilo we have made today in a couple of months and we could go up to 60mg if we have to. I just don't like putting her through all of the ACTH tests that she needs with the dose changes. She has started to get stressed before she gets out of the car and I really feel for her. Hopefully we will see some improvement this time.

Linda and Spicey

[Casey's Mom]

Linda my Casey gets so stressed now when I don't feed her in the am. She knows she is going to the vet and hates it. I am sorry for Spicey getting stressed I know what you are going through! I think with the ACTH why they hate it is we have to leave them there. Unfortunately it is the only way to make sure the dosage is correct.

Love and hugs,

[Harley PoMMom]

I think with the ACTH why they hate it is we have to leave them there. Unfortunately it is the only way to make sure the dosage is correct.

Love and hugs,

I don't leave Harley at the vets office for his ACTH stim tests. I bring him in, they take him back and they inject the stim agent and then they bring him right back out to me. I can either take him home and bring him back in an hour or wait there with him by my side. We usually wait there and we take a little stroll outside until it's time for his post draw.

[littleone1]

Corky also gets super stressed out. Like Lori, I take Corky home and make sure he's back in an hour. I'm lucky that I only live 6 minutes away from Corky's IMS.

Sending positive thoughts that things will improve and that Spicey's cortisol level will stabilize.

Terri

[Casey's Mom]

Hey guys I never knew that was an option!! I am doing that next time. Gotta love this forum . . . . .

Love and hugs,

[Spiceysmum]

My daughter takes Spicey for her tests as I don't drive and she has offered to bring her home in between so I think this is what we'll do next time too. She gets stressed for routine appointments now so it will probably take a while before she realises she's not going to be left there.

Linda and Spicey

[Spiceysmum]

Spicey is very poorly today. She is very weak and couldn't walk properly this morning and didn't want breakfast, which for an always hungry dog is very unusual. Obviously I didn't give her todays dose of Trilo. I had to carry her to the car and into the vets.

The vet (not our usual one) couldn't find anything obvious wrong on examining her, temperature, heart etc all ok. Blood tests showed increases which she said were probably renal failure. We were devastated. I have taken a urine sample in this afternoon and she is concentrating really well. It was dark brown and I was worried that it was blood but I think that is the only wee she had had all day. Everything else was ok with the sample too. So the vet then informs me that her kidneys weren't as bad as first thought.:confused: She hasn't drank much all day but this afternoon has eaten some chicken and egg white.

It must be that her cortisol has dropped too low but I don't want to put her through an ACTH while she is this bad. I didn't give her any pred this morning in case it was something else wrong but I don't know what to do now. The vet never gave me an answer as to whether to give her any or not and my mind was all over the place and I didn't think to ask again. Is there any reason I shouldn't give her the pred and if not, what dose do I give her, she weighs 38lb.
Her ALKP and ALT have risen remarkably even since she has been back on Trilo. I have posted all of the out of range blood results, some I understand, some not. Electrolytes were all ok, is this normal if the cortisol was that low?

ALKP 1172 0-160
ALT 758 0-110
CREA 173 0-150
UREA 13.6 1.7-9.8
RBC 5.250 5.5-8.5
MCH 23.200 17-23
HGB 12.200 15-20
HCT 33.800 44-57
#LYM 0.500 1-3.6

I only have time to put the numbers in at the minute as I have to go to work until 9.30pm but if you need the U/L, mmol/l etc I can insert them later.

Hoping someone can give me some idea of what to do now.

Will be back later.

Linda and Spicey

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Linda,

I am so sorry to hear that Spicey is feeling so poorly and I am hoping and praying that she is feeling much better soon.

I think it is important to have an ACTH stim test done on her right now so you know how she is reacting to the Trilostane dosage she is on. Realizing prednisone will interfere with the stim test you may want to ask your vet about giving Spicey dexamethasone instead. Dexamethasone will not interfere with an ACTH stim test. But if she is feeling that poorly, and if it were me and I thought it was low-cortisol, I would give her the prednisone and not wait. JMO.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

If I gave Spicey pred tonight would it interfere with the results if I had an ACTH on Thursday? Do I then withold Trilo from now even on the day of the test?

I really don't know what to do, I don't want to make her any worse.
She isn't drinking much water.

What dose for a 38lb dog?

Linda and Spicey

[Harley PoMMom]

Prednisone has a duration of action of 12-36 hours so giving her prednisone now, I don't think, would interfere. Her rescue dose would be approx. 5mg. The standard rescue dose of pred is 0.25mg/kg. To find her weight in kg, divide the lbs by 2.2...then multiply that result (her weight in kg) by 0.25 and you will have the amount for her weight. 38 /2.2 = 17.27 * 0.25 = 4.31mg so 5mg.

If you really think it is low-cortisol that is making her feel so poorly than, if it were me, I wouldn't give her anymore Trilostane even on the day of the ACTH stim test. Hopefully the others will give their opinions as well on this.

Hope this helps and hoping Spicey is feeling better soon.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Lori,

Well, I've given her the pred, I can't take it back now so I'll be keeping a close eye on her.

The vet thought I should start her back on the Trilo but reduce the dose to 30mg from 40mg. I didn't want to do that especially without an ACTH and I didn't think the reduction was enough anyway. I just hope they can fit us in for a test on Thursday as we all go on holiday on Saturday.

I still can't believe how quickly she went downhill. She was as hungry as usual yesterday. It will be a sleepless night tonight.

Linda and Spicey

[sunimist]

I agree with Lori. The pred should not be given at least 24 hours prior to testing so everything should be good with giving the pred now. I also agree that if you think the cortisol being too low is the problem (sounds like it to me, but may be something else), then I would not give anymore trilostane and get an ACTH test done as soon as possible. If the cortisol is too low, you did the right thing by giving the pred and it should make Spicey feel better soon.

Please let us know how she is feeling in a little while. :)

Shelba and Suni~~

[lulusmom]

Hi Linda,

I just went back through your thread and reconstructed the Vetoryl dosing and acth stim test timelines so that we have a trail that leads up to today's post advising that Spicey is not doing well. I would appreciate it if you would confirm the dates and let us know exactly when each acth stim test was done. At least one of the results is very odd, in that the dose was increased yet the post stim went up 3 points. The stim I'm referring to is the one that was done in June but I could not determine the exact date. See below. Inconsistency in timing of the acth stim could account for this oddity but you'll have to check your paperwork or with your vet to verify when the testing was done. All tests should have been done within 4 to 6 hours of the last dose of Vetoryl.

4/30 - Started 10mg
5/10 - ACTH Stim Pre 4.9 and post 10
5/15 - Started 20mg
5/24 - ACTH Stim Pre 32 and post 7.8
6/?? - Started 30mg
6/?? - ACTH Stim pre 2.55 and post 11
6/30 - Started 40mg
7/13 - Spicey now very weak, having trouble walking and would not eat breakfast

Please do not give Spicey any more Vetory until she is acting perfectly normal and her appetite is back to 100%. Because Vetoryl's half life is rather short, cortisol levels should rebound rather quickly simply by withholding the dosing. However, given Spicey's history, I think you've done the right thing by giving her prednisone and hopefully she will start to feel much better now. I've been down this road with my own cushdogs and whenever I took them off of Trilostane for any lenth of time and/or gave them prednisone, as long as they improved with the prednisone or withholding the dosing, I never worried about getting in for a new stim test until they were back on a dosing schedule for two weeks. If no improvements are seen with the prednisone, then I would definitely want a stim test done asap.

Looking forward to getting your clarification of my chronological dosing and testing.

Glynda

[Dollydog]

Hope Spicey is feeling better soon! I'd leave the trilo out for now too.
Jo-Ann

[labblab]

Please do not give Spicey any more Vetory until she is acting perfectly normal and her appetite is back to 100%. Because Vetoryl's half life is rather short, cortisol levels should rebound rather quickly simply by withholding the dosing. However, given Spicey's history, I think you've done the right thing by giving her prednisone and hopefully she will start to feel much better now. I've been down this road with my own cushdogs and whenever I took them off of Trilostane for any lenth of time and/or gave them prednisone, as long as they improved with the prednisone or withholding the dosing, I never worried about getting in for a new stim test until they were back on a dosing schedule for two weeks. If no improvements are seen with the prednisone, then I would definitely want a stim test done asap.

Hi Linda,

I agree 100% with Glynda's recommendations here. I, too, think you did exactly the right thing by giving Spicey the prednisone. As long as she perks back up, I also would not rush in for a new ACTH during a time period when the trilostane is being withheld. Because if she's not being actively dosed, you really won't get useful information re: the true effect of the medication. I would only go in for a stim test now if you do not see improvement in her condition. And so, I am really just repeating what Glynda has already said. ;)

One thing you COULD do tomorrow or Thursday is have her electrolytes checked. That would be a lot easier and less expensive than a stim test, and that could give you some additional feedback as to the possibility that her cortisol has gone too low...

Fingers crossed that the prednisone perks her back up, and that we can try to make some sense of her June testing/dosing results...

Marianne

[Spiceysmum]

Glynda,

Yes those dosing and stim test timelines are correct. The missing ACTH was done on 17th June, I can't remember the exact date we increased the dose before that but it would have been about 14 days before the test as we decided to leave it a little bit longer than the usual 10 days as she was getting stressed about having them so frequently. The tests were all done in the 4-6 hours after dosing as she was always home in time.

I remarked at the time that I couldn't understand why the post number went up despite the increase. I hope this isn't the something else going on that I was worrying about at the time.

Spicey is asleep as she has been nearly all day so I can't tell whether the pred has helped or not yet. I guess I will have to sit up a bit longer, it's midnight here, or see how she is in the morning if she stays asleep now.

Thank you all for your help and advice.

Linda and Spicey

[Spiceysmum]

Marianne,

We had the electrolyes checked today along with the other blood tests. The results were all ok.

Sodium 153.0 mmol/l 144-160
Potassium 4.9 mmol/l 3.5-5.8
Chloride 114.0 mmol/l 109-122

Can her cortisol be really low if the electrolytes are good?

Linda and Spicey

[labblab]

Can her cortisol be really low if the electrolytes are good?

Linda and Spicey
I guess it IS possible, given this quote from Dechra's U.S. Product Insert:


A post-ACTH stimulation test resulting in a cortisol of <1.45 μg/dL (<40 nmol/L), with or without electrolyte abnormalities, may precede the development of clinical signs of hypoadrenocorticism. Good control is indicated by favorable clinical signs as well as post-ACTH serum cortisol of 1.45-9.1 μg/dL (40-250 nmol/L). If the ACTH stimulation test is <1.45 μg/dL (<40 nmol/L) and/or if electrolyte imbalances characteristic of hypoadrenocorticism (hyperkalemia and hyponatremia) are found, VETORYL Capsules should be temporarily discontinued until recurrence of clinical signs consistent with hyperadrenocorticism and test results return to normal (1.45-9.1 μg/dL or 40-250 nmol/L). VETORYL Capsules may then be re-introduced at a lower dose.

So although it's certainly good that the electrolytes were OK, I guess that's not the whole picture as far as determining whether or not to test/withhold the medication...:o

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Dear Linda,
I feel terrible for both you and Spicey. So sorry to hear this, and will be praying for her quick recovery. I can only imagine your overwhelming feeling right now. Please know we are pulling for your precious Spicey. I hope when I check in tomorrow, we'll have some good news on Spicey. Hang in there as hard as it is to do. We luv you and Spicey soooo much....xo Jeanette and Princess

[Casey's Mom]

Linda you and Spicey are probably both sound asleep by now - hopefully you wake up to a better day tomorrow and that Spicey feels better.

Prayers coming your way, love and many hugs. . . .

[frijole]

Hugs, kisses and warm thoughts from our home to yours. Kim

[Spiceysmum]

You are all so kind, I really appreciate your thoughts for us.

Spicey is a little bit better this morning. She slept all night. I got up at 5 to let Brin out but Spicey wouldn't go and again at 7 she still didn't go out. She has eaten some more chicken and egg though. She walks from one room to the other very slowly so she is far from better. I have made an appointment for tomorrow for an ACTH and will be bringing her home in between. I don't know if it will be a waste of money as I am not giving her any more Trilo until I see what the results are. I am frightened that if I did give her any it would push her over the edge. I might be way off the mark and it's nothing to do with her cortisol levels but I can't take the risk.

I will update again when I get back from work later this afternoon.

Linda and Spicey x

[acushdogsmom]

Marianne,

We had the electrolyes checked today along with the other blood tests. The results were all ok.

Sodium 153.0 mmol/l 144-160
Potassium 4.9 mmol/l 3.5-5.8
Chloride 114.0 mmol/l 109-122

Can her cortisol be really low if the electrolytes are good?

Linda and SpiceyYes, cortisol can definitely be too low even if the electrolytes are fine. My dog was on Lysodren, not trilostane, but we did once have a situation where by symptoms I thought his cortisol was possibly too low. Vet checked electrolytes and said if they were fine, cortisol level was likely also okay. I insisted on doing an ACTH stim test also, even though she said we didn't need to (that we could tell by the electrolytes if the cortisol was too low) and when we got the results of the stim back, lo and behold, his cortisol was way too low (less than 10 nmol/L pre AND post-ACTH!) even though his electrolytes were fine. We had to take him off the Lysodren for several months, until the cortisol production started to go back up again.

She (the Vet) told me that since that day with my dog, if there is any suspicion that cortisol might be too low, she checks both - ie she always checks electrolytes and tests the cortisol production with an ACTH stim, even if the electrolytes are okay, because too-low cortisol can present with or without the electrolytes being affected.

[zoesmom]

Linda - just catching up and so sorry to hear about Spicey's latest trouble. Is she doing any better today? Will be watching to see her test results. You got the ACTH, too, right? Sue

[Roxee's Dad]

Just checking in on Spicey, hope she is continuing to improve.

[Spiceysmum]

Hi All,

Spicey did seem a little bit better yesterday and ate both meals but did seem to get more lethargic as the day went on. She is the same this morning and hasn't even got up at all. So I am wondering if the pred did do some good and as it wore off she deteriorated.

We are going for the ACTH at 10am today but probably won't get the results until Monday. We are on holiday then but the vet will still ring me with the results. I will need to get some more pred in case she is very low and has to take more while we are away. I only gave her the one tablet on Tuesday night so it should be out of her system now, I will ask the vet about giving her more after todays ACTH. As she has had no Trilo since Monday morning how do we read the results i.e. if they are within range for a cush dog does that mean they are still low because she has had no Trilo. (Hope you understand what I mean, not sure I do!)

In a way I am hoping that she is low and we can treat it as the alternative doesn't bear thinking about. I won't have internet access next week so I will try to think of all of the questions I need ask before then.

Linda and Spicey x

[Boxer_lover]

Hi Linda.

Sorry that Spicey is having troubles. My Ben has been low on his last two ACTH tests and the vet has recommend staying on the same dose of Trilo since he has been doing well. The last week or so he has had two episodes of a belly ache...so I think I am off to call the vet to see what is next.

Anyway, just wanted to say that my fingers are crossed and all 12 paws in my house are crossed that Spicey will get better soon.

Wendy.

[zoesmom]

I only gave her the one tablet on Tuesday night so it should be out of her system now, I will ask the vet about giving her more after todays ACTH. As she has had no Trilo since Monday morning how do we read the results i.e. if they are within range for a cush dog does that mean they are still low because she has had no Trilo. (Hope you understand what I mean, not sure I do!)

Linda and Spicey x


I DO understand what you mean. If the ACTH comes back say at 3 or 4 or 5, then the natural assumption would be that when you stopped giving the trilo days earlier, she was probably much much lower. That's the trick tho' - knowing how much lower. Unless she's gone seriously addisonian and the test comes back way low - in spite of the 4 intervening days of no trilo. I'd definitely get some more pred, just to be safe while you wait for the acth results. (With her electrolytes being ok, maybe a few more doses of pred will do the trick between now and Monday?????) Sue

[mypuppy]

Linda, thinking of you and Spicey. Tight hugs xo Jeanette and Princess

[Spiceysmum]

Spicey is not alot better. I have given her 5mg of pred for the last two days. She can walk a little better than she did the first day but she is still very weak. She is still eating the chicken but was sick this morning. She is breathing heavy too especially when lying down and I have mentioned this to the vet on a couple of occasions but her heart is always fine. I am thinking she might have something wrong with one of her organs that is causing this. For the first time on Thursday when I took her for the ACTH the vet said her breathing seemed more laboured.

I would feel better if we had the ACTH results before we go away tomorrow but I think it's more likely to be Monday. I've got a terrible feeling that she is not going to get better and I can't bear it.

Linda and Spicey

[mypuppy]

Oh Linda,
I feel so terrible for you and your precious Spicey. I wish I can hug you and make it all go away and get Spicey to good health. My prayers are with you. keep the faith. luv you bunches. Xo Jeanette

[Spiceysmum]

Jeanette,

I had to force myself to come here now as I knew I would be in floods of tears as I have been on the brink all day. The love and support is overwhelming. I don't know how I'm going to cope without you all while we're away next week. I know you will all be worrying because I won't be able to update you.

I wish I had those results as I don't want to keep giving her the pred which might be giving her more energy than her body can cope with.

I will update again in the morning before we leave.

Linda and Spicey x

[Harley PoMMom]

We will continue to keep you and Spicey in our thoughts and prayers, most definitely! We will also be sending positive and healing energy your way.

The prednisone might be upsetting her sensitive tummy, I know it has done it to mine in the past unless I take it with a little bit of food.

Love and (((hugs)))
Lori

[lulusmom]

Ditto to what Lori said. We will be with you in spirit and will keep you in our thoughts and prayers.

Glynda

[frijole]

Thinking of you guys and sending hugs. Kim

[Spiceysmum]

Spicey is weaker this morning. I think we will take her to the vets when they open as I can't make this decision on my own. I need to know whether they think there is a chance it is only low cortisol that is making her like this. She is panting and breathing heavy.

If I don't update again today it is because they say wait until we get the results in which case we will still go on holiday, if not I will try to come back later.

It is our Wedding Anniversary today but we won't be celebrating.

Linda and Spicey

[mypuppy]

Praying for a sweet miracle for precious Spicey....We are pulling for you every step of the way.....Hugs...Jeanette

[Harley PoMMom]

Keeping you all in my thoughts and prayers.

And wishing you and hubby a Happy Wedding Anniversary!

Love and (((hugs)))
Lori

[littleone1]

Hi Linda,

I am keeping you and Spicey in my thoughts and prayers. Corky and I are keeping everything crossed that this is only a temporary setback.

Even though you won't be celebrating your anniversary, I still want to wish you a Happy Anniversary, and hopefully the best anniversary gift you receive is improvement in Spicey.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

Adding my prayers, healing thoughts and best wishes for you and Spicey today.

Remember, we are all here with you...

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Casey's Mom]

Hi Linda - lots of prayers being sent your way. Spicey girl - love to you and tight hugs.

[mytil]

I too am sending my thoughts and prayers to the both of you.

Terry

[Franklin'sMum]

Linda,
Adding my thoughts and prayers that this is just a minor setback with Spicey, and happy anniversary to you and your hubby (even though you don't plan on celebrating)
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[mypuppy]

Hi Linda,
You and your Spicey have been in my constant thoughts, and we have not seen any new updates. I do hope Spicey is doing much better these days and that you let us know how you are both doing. Sending you some very tight hugs. Luv ya bunches. Xo Jeanette

[labblab]

Linda, I have been traveling myself and am just now catching up. I am so sorry that Spicey has still been having problems, and I am joining all the others in sending healing thoughts to your sweet girl. I know how hard it is to see our pups struggling in any way. So my fingers are crossed that Spicey has improved and that your worry has eased enough to permit you to take your trip, after all.

Big healing hugs to you all,
Marianne

[Spiceysmum]

I don't know how I am going to get through this but I have to tell you that our beloved Spicey has passed away. I cannot see through the tears but I have to carry on.

When we took her to our vets on Saturday, 17th July she had to stay in as they thought it was addisons. Even though the ACTH results weren't due in until Monday they started treating her straight away. We were told that she would be in a few days but the next morning they said she could come home. We decided to go on holiday as she would be with us. When we went to pick her up she had improved a tiny bit but was still very weak and still breathing heavily. They gave us more treatment to take with us and told us to find a vet if she didn't improve. They rang with the results on Monday but her levels were still high, post was 12 I think. I said it must be something affecting her breathing and we were going to come home to get x rays done. Then we found a vet hospital near to us on holiday so took her there. We thought it must be fate as the main vet was a heart specialist but he said her heart was ok and he thought it was uncontrolled cushings that was causing her problems. She had to be admitted to go on a drip and chest and abdomen x rays were done the next day as well as an ultrasound. They found she had a tumour in her spleen and her liver was huge. Nothing was found in her chest but her lungs weren't ventilating properly. The vet was hopeful that if he could get her well enough either he or our own vets could remove her spleen. Even though she had had no vetoryl for a week by this stage he started her on 60mg along with antibiotics. I didn't like the idea of this but I had to trust him as we didn't have much choice left. It wasn't addisons so he said we needed to get the cushings under control. For a day or two she didn't get any worse but then on Thursday she started to deteriorate and by Friday she hadn't got any fight left in her.

We had watched her get weaker and I felt sick and guilty every day because I couldn't help her. On Friday we had to make the heartbreaking decision to end her suffering. We held her and said sorry and told her we loved her and always would. Now I feel guilty for not giving her the chance of the operation even though I know she wasn't strong enough for the surgery.

The house is so empty and our other dog, Brin is so confused and sad. I wish I could tell him where his Spicey is, they have loved each other from the first day they met over 12 years ago.

I really needed all of you last week but I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for being there for us.

Goodbye my Spicey girl, I love and miss you so much.

Linda

[Roxee's Dad]

Dear Linda,
I know their are no words to ease your pain, I am so sorry for your loss. Spicey knows she was loved and I am sure she is and will be watching over you and Brin.

Rest in Peace sweet girl.

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Linda,

I am so sorry to hear about our sweet Spicey. You did all you could for her at all times and she knows this as do we all.

Sweetie, there was nothing more that you could have done for her. Her beautiful vessel was finished, it had born her spirit for as long as it could. Tho her body is gone, her spirit remains forever; always with you, watching over you with love, knowing that one day you will be together again.

Love Brin extra much these next few weeks. He will adjust in time, too. Let the love the two of you share be a balm to your souls.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, and our angels, Ruby and Crystal

[frijole]

Linda, I am so sorry to hear this. I know you did all that you could for Spicey so please know that. Please come back once you have had time to heal and let us know how you are doing. Spicey will join all the other cush angels and always be honored here. I am sure my Haley will run and greet her as she crosses that bridge. RIP dear Spicey and know you were loved and will be missed by us all. Kim

[bkdice]

Dear Linda,

I'm so sad to read of Spicey's passing. :( It sounds like you did everything you could to help her. I know you feel guilty and helpless, which is normal. In time, I hope you will see how much you DID DO for her. I have no doubt she knew you made all your decisions out of love.

My sincere condolences for your sweet girl.

[littleone1]

I am so very sorry for your loss Linda. As others have said, you did everything you could possibly do. Spicey knows how much she was loved and cared for.

Godspeed sweet, dear Spicey.

[lulusmom]

Linda, I am so very sorry for your loss. Please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Godspeed, sweet Spicey.

[judymaggie]

Linda -- my thoughts and prayers are with you as you grieve for your sweet Spicey. You will come to understand that you made the best choice you could to have Spicey at peace and no longer in pain.

[zoesmom]

Linda - I am soo very sorry to read about Spicey. I think Leslie summed it up well . . . we can only do so much for them but when their bodies wear down, the only right thing to do is to release them. You loved her enough to do that and though she couldn't say it, I know she would thank you for making that difficult choice. Godspeed, sweet Spicey. Sue

[BestBuddy]

Linda,

I am so sorry. Spicey was very much loved and letting her go was the final gift.

Thinking of you

Jenny

[Casey's Mom]

Linda I am so sorry. Know that you did everything you could do for her, know that she felt all of your love for her. RIP dear Spicey, great big hugs to you and your family Linda.

[JacksMom]

Dear Linda,

Very sorry to hear about Spicey. Take comfort in knowing you did everything to help her and now she is happy and healthy again. She is frolicking around, waiting for you on the other side.

Dawn

[mypuppy]

Oh Linda,
I was so praying this would not be Spicey's final outcome, but please do not look back and feel in your heart it was the most loving, selfless choice you made for your precious Spicey. As I sit here typing and gaze into my Princess's eyes I can only sense your deep pain in letting her go. It hurts soo much I know. I know the day will come when beautiful memories of your Spicey and all the love and joy she brought into your lives and hearts will overshadow those sad final memories. I wish you peace and healing in the many days to come. I wish you love and life's beautiful blessings. Tightest hugs. WE LOVE YOU SPICEY....... Jeanette and Princess

[bgdavis]

Linda and family,

I'm very sorry for the loss of Spicey. You helped her to cross the Bridge when the time came. She was very well loved and had a good 'run' of 14 years.

Bonnie and Angel Crissy

[Boxer_lover]

I am so sorry!

Wendy and Ben

[Harley PoMMom]

Dearest Linda,

I am so very sorry for the loss of your beloved Spicey and my heart goes out to you and your family at this most painful time.

You were an exceptional Mom to Spicey; you loved her with all your heart and you were deeply devoted to her. The decision to let them go is the hardest one but it is one made from the heart. I believe Sue wrote this to someone: The release from pain is their's, but only if we have the courage to make the pain ours.
It never fails to bring tears to my eyes and calm to my heart knowing just how true it is.

We are here for you, Linda, always.

With Heartfelt Sympathy,
Lori

[Franklin'sMum]

Linda,

Thinking of you, and sending love. I am so very sorry. RIP Spicey
(((Hugs))) Jane xx

[marie adams]

Hello Linda,

My deepest sympathy goes out to you at this time. There are no words that will take away the pain at this time, but the memories will always be there to keep you company along with Brin.

Take care!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Thinking of you. Hugs and prayers continue.

Leslie and the girls - always

[ladysmom06]

Dear Linda,

I am so very sorry to hear about the loss of your precious Spicey. Keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. My deepest sympathy.

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and prayers, they mean so much.

It's a struggle to come to terms with Spicey not being here. I can just about cope at work because they all knew before we came home but I find it hard to put it into words to people who don't know. I find myself taking Brin on his walk later than usual so I don't bump into the usual dog-walkers.

The vet left a message on Monday to say she was devastated when she heard and will try to call again today which I thought was lovely. We also received a card from the vets that treated Spicey while we were on holiday.

Poor Brin is really missing Spicey. He doesn't go outside as much as he used to, I hope he isn't thinking we are going to leave him somewhere too, who knows what goes through their minds.

I will post more about our life with Spicey when I feel able to and reply to other threads.

Love to all,
Linda and Angel Spicey x

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Linda,

So good to hear from you. I understand how difficult it can be to come back here so soon. Thank you.

Take all the time you need to grieve for your baby. We will be here. Just remember, when times are darkest, you have many, many friends out there who truly understand your pain and loss, who's tears fall with yours.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Bichonluver3]

Dear Linda,
Please do not feel guilty. You made all the right decisions. Spicey was so lucky to have had you as her mom. I think we all tend to forget that a dog's life is just not as long as ours. Spicey, I am sure, had a wonderful life with you. Remember the good times you shared together and find peace in those memories. The pain of losing a friend is heart wrenching but think of Spicey now running free of pain and in perfect health. We are so sorry that you are going through this dark time and hope that the sun will shine again for you before too long. Give Brin special hugs for us.
God bless you all and our sweet angel Spicey.
Love,
Carrol & Chloe

[lucygoo]

Hi Linda...

I'm so sorry to hear about Spicey! And I'm sorry I'm so late in responding....haven't been on at all. You did everything you could for Spicey and gave her a wonderful life. Take care of yourself.

Gina

[clydetheboosmom]

Oh Linda!

I'm so very sorry. You are such a wonderful mom, I wish I could take away all your pain and doubt. I'm heartbroken for you.

Please know that I am thinking of you. (((hugs)))

Lynne, Clyde & Bailey

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you Lynne for thinking of us when you have so much going on in your own life and thank you to everyone else too. I cannot believe it is nearly two weeks since I last saw Spicey and yet it seems ages since I held her. I know life goes on but I don't want to think of it being normal without Spicey in it.

Linda x

[Truffa's Mom]

Linda I am so sorry for your loss ; my heart aches and my tears flow while I am writing this little note to you. You were always so kind and tender towards me and Truffa, I wish I could wrap my arms around you until at least for a brief moment our pain stops, and maybe we could take a peak at our girls playing in the reflection of our tears. I am thinking of you while I imagine our two girls will soon come to our dreams and their renovated spirit would soothe our souls and wash away our pain.

[Spiceysmum]

Marcela, I will try and hold that thought of Spicey and Truffa happily playing and free from pain, thank you.

Linda x

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Linda,

I am just catching up with everything - night shift and very little time for anything but sleep. I am so sorry you have lost your dearest Spicey. It is still hard after nearly five months losing our dear Sabre and tears are flowing as I type. Their memories will always be with us and will be treasured in our hearts.

Take care
Angela and our little Flynn

[Loladog]

Dear Linda,

I'm sorry that this response is late but I'd like to say that I'm truly sorry that you lost Spicey.:( My heart breaks every time I read these updates on the forum. My thoughts are with you.

Take Care,

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

It is getting easier to talk to people about Spicey without getting too upset now but I still find it hard to believe she's not coming back.

I was given a canvas picture of Spicey and Brin yesterday by two men who walk their dogs with us, how lovely is that? Only people who love their dogs would think of doing that.

I have to take Brin to the vets this afternoon and that will be really hard as I'm usually there with Spicey. He is scratching like mad and I'm not sure if it's stress or not. He used to love being outside on the garden but now just goes out to do his business then comes straight back in, I think he feels more secure in the house.

Spicey's ashes have been sent from the vets we used while we were on holiday. I have found a rose on the internet called Spice of Life but it won't be available for delivery until early November so we will wait until then. Even the colour is perfect, orange with copper edges. We found some photos of Spicey when she was about a year old and I couldn't believe how much her fur had changed over the years. It was a much lighter honey colour and not as dense, she looked like a different dog. I will post them when I get them onto my computer.

Linda x

[mytil]

Linda,

My continued (((((hugs)))) to you.

Terry

[Spiceysmum]

Hi,

We have just got back from our first holiday without any dogs. We decided to leave Brin with our daughter and family and her dog so that he had company and didn't have to be left in the caravan on his own at any time. It was so strange without them, I missed the dog hairs, having to get up early to take them for a walk and most of all the way Spicey used to curl up in the shower tray for a bed. She made it her bed when we first got the caravan and so we had to put a cover in it to make it comfy! We stayed in the same area we were at a few weeks ago and there were alot of tears and sad memories.

Brin is still scratching and not wanting to go outside unless we go with him. He is so different without Spicey. I have read that dog's don't love and miss dogs like we do and just want any company but I don't believe that. He has always been a bit of a loner around other dogs much prefering a ball or food but he was devoted to Spicey.

I still find it hard to speak of Spicey in a past tense, it doesn't seem real, I just wish she was here.

Linda

[gpgscott]

Morning Linda,

I know just what you mean missing Spicey, I woke up early the other morning and cried like a baby over our Moria.

Do you have plans to find a companion for Brin anytime in the future.

Best,

Scott

[Spiceysmum]

Scott,

I have to remember sometimes that I am not the only one feeling so sad and that everyone misses their pet as much as I do. Moria was with you for so long and I know how much it hurts when they are no longer with us.

No, we have no plans to find another companion for Brin. I cannot even begin to imagine having another dog, I know this might not always be the case otherwise we would never have had Spicey after losing our previous dog. As Brin is 14 too I don't think he would want any other dog in the house, it has taken him 3 years to get used to my daughters dog who he sees every day. So I will have to make sure he gets lots of doggie company on his walks but as I said he's never really shown much interest in other dogs.

Linda

[Spiceysmum]

It is only fitting that I break the sad news on here that Spicey and Brin are together again as they were always destined to be. Brin passed away in my arms at the vets this morning and we are heartbroken. The only thing keeping me going is the thought of my two beautiful dogs snuggling up happily together. Brin has missed Spicey so much even after all this time. He would have been 18 this year but it doesn't make it any easier, he was still my baby.
The feelings of guilt are enormous but I know I couldn't have loved him anymore and I'm sure he knows it too. He was such a strong boy and fought every step of the way but there are some battles that are just too big. I miss him so much.
Linda

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Linda,

My heart is broken with yours. You and Brin have fought so many battles together and overcome so much. I have no doubt whatsoever that your sweet boy is so grateful to you for all you have done on his behalf. His confusion and pain is over now, he is free and strong once again. And, yes, he and Spicey are running in the
Rainbow Fields side by side, joyous in their reunion. They both carry the love you gave them and the love they share for you with them always.

Please don't feel any guilt - you haven't earned it, sweetie. This is a natural response to such a loss but don't let it take hold. You are a wonderful mom and both your babies benefited greatly from your TLC. You did all you knew, took every step you could to make their lives the best possible - no one could ask for more.

I am so so sorry for your loss and pain. You know we are here anytime you wish to talk.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket, Brick, Sophie, Grace, and all our Angels



May you know that absence is full

Of tender presence and that

Nothing is ever lost or forgotten.

May the absences in your life be full of eternal echo.

May you sense around you the secret

Elsewhere which holds the presences

That have left your life.

May you be generous in your embrace of loss.

May the sore of your grief turn into a well

Of seamless presence.

May your compassion reach out to the ones

We never hear from and may you have

The courage to speak out for the excluded ones.

May you become the gracious

And passionate subject of your own life.

May you not disrespect your mystery

Through brittle words or false belonging.

May you be embraced by God in whom

Dawn and twilight are one and may

Your longing inhabit its deepest dreams

Within the shelter of the Great Belonging.

From John O’Donohue’s Eternal Echoes-Exploring our Hunger to Belong

[addy]

My heart goes out to you, Linda. No matter their age- it is so painful to lose them.

Your words comforted me when I needed it so; I hope I can return the comfort for you.

Big hugs and prayers and hopes that you lock up the guilt. There is no guilt to be had.

[bgdavis]

I'm so sorry for the loss of your long-time companion, Brin. That a dog reached such a great age is a testament to the wonderful care and love you provided.

I'm glad your 'babies' are together again, without pain and old age.

Bonnie and Angel Criss Ann

[doxiesrock912]

My sincere condolences Linda!

[goldengirl88]

So sorry to hear that your dear Brin has passed. You were a wonderful care taker to have an dog reach that age. I can only imagine the pain you heart is feeling after being with him that long. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Dearest Linda,

I am so sorry for your loss of sweet Brin and my heart goes out to you and your family. Sending huge and loving hugs and please do remember that we are here for you.

Godspeed sweet Brin.

With Heartfelt Sympathy,
Lori

[molly muffin]

I am so sorry Linda to hear that Brin has passed on across the Bridge, to join his favorite playmate in the world. I'm sure they are having a real time of it catching up on everything.

My sincerest condolences as it is those who are left behind who feel the emptiness the most.

love
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you for your kind words and sympathy, they mean so much. Last night and this morning have been so different, none of the usual rituals to do. The gut wrenching feeling of not knowing what to do and when is the right time has gone, only to be replaced by a heartbreaking emptiness but knowing he is at peace helps. I miss my Brinny boy so much.
Linda x

[molly muffin]

{{{ HUGS}}}}

Sharlene

[molly muffin]

Linda, I hope Brin is home with you soon.

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Linda, I care about you too and you are right about feeling mad because we have to hide our feelings at work and put on a brave face. It sucks. Big time and that is putting it mildly.

Just know that we are all here for you forever if you need us and dont be shy about asking for a hug. I am very good with hugs personally, one of the better huggers here on the forum, not to sound smug;)

I found such peace bringing my girl home. I still am a mess but it truly helped as hard as it was. I dont know how many times I kissed the box of ashes on the ride home. I hope your girl comes home soon too.

All my love, Linda.

and all my hugs too

[goldengirl88]

Sorry to hear your baby has passed. She is now running with the others that have crossed the bridge before her. Blessings
Patti

[apollo6]

I am so sorry for the lose of your precious Brin. It sucks when the world goes on as if nothing has happened,but for you,your world was turned upside down with the lose of your baby.
Hugs Sonja and Angel Apollo

[Spiceysmum]

Brin is home with us again. We collected his ashes on Tuesday and it was so heartbreaking, my husband had to ask at the vets as the lump in my throat was so big I could hardly speak. The last time I saw Brin he was my beautiful boy and here he was in a box, it just wasn't right. We kept Spicey's ashes so they could be buried together not thinking it would be 4 years later but we are so grateful he lived until he was nearly 18. I am now thinking whether to scatter their ashes together in the sea at the beach when we go there in April. I have never thought about it before but somehow it seems right as they both loved the beach and we have many memories of them running along it together.
I still can't talk to anyone outside of the family about Brin as it is too painful but I know everyone here understands just how much we miss him.
Linda

[goldengirl88]

It is heartbreaking to look at you boy and know this is what it all comes down to. The beach sounds like a lovely place for your babies to be together again. God Bless you. Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

I am glad sweet Brin is home again. I can only imagine how bittersweet this must be. There is no doubt in my mind that Spicy and Brin are running side by side again, frolicking in the Rainbow Fields counting the seconds til they see you again. It will seem like ages for us left behind but for those who have Crossed over, our ages pass in the blink of an eye.

Many hugs,
Leslie

[molly muffin]

Sending love and hugs your way.

I think that is an excellent idea to scatter their ashes together, where they both loved to be. Do you have a picture of the two of them together that you could take with you for that day? that might be too much though, I get teary just thinking of it.

love
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

Thinking of you and Brin. Sending love and hugs.

[Spiceysmum]

Thank you Addy. It is 3 weeks today since Brin passed away and it is so lonely without him. Time is going so quickly and I just dread it when it will have been months then a year since I saw him.
I was just reading what Susan wrote on Zoe's thread about how much we have to do and the decisions we have to make in the last few months of their lives and, while it was so hard at the time, I realise how much I miss doing it and loved taking care of him.
Sending love and hugs right back to you.
Linda x