Introducing Liza our mini dachs.

[djsweis]

Hi there! Would like to introduce Liza our mini dachs. and ask some questions. We found Liza roaming the street about 1 year ago. She had a horrible infection in her mouth and all of her teeth were immediately pulled. It rotted through a piece of her jaw and went up into her sinuses. She was a little mess. Once her teeth were removed she perked up and was a happy girl for about 6 months. We started to notice her panting, drinking a lot and licking constantly. We started to read about cushings and saw that she had most of the symptoms. We took her to the vet for testing and sure enough cushings. I myself have an autoimmune issue and know the importance of diet change, so immediately I started to make her meals. We also have 2 other mini's and now they are all eating lots of veggies, meat, greek yogurt etc. We do have her on medication, my hubby insisted that we put her on it. I am not a big fan right now because our poor girl is shaking and can barely stand on her hind legs. I have not gone through the whole forum yet to find the answer. So here are the questions. Will she get over the shaking and weakness, should we take her off of the Vetoryl medication and find a natural supplement. Are there natural supplements that I can add to her food and limit the medication. Thanks so much!

[frijole]

We need more info to answer the question. The symptoms you are describing are those of a dog before cortisol is under control but they are also signs that the dose of vetoryl/trilostane is too high. Weird I know.

Please tell us the dosage you are on, the frequency and your dog's weight. How long have you been on it? Have you done an acth test since starting?

What tests were done to diagnose your dog? What symptoms led you to suspect cushings?

Tell us as much as you can about your dog. Thanks Kim

[labblab]

Hello and welcome!

First of all, can you tell us how much Liza weighs and how much Vetoryl she is taking? Also, have monitoring ACTH tests been performed since she started her treatment? If so, at what times and what were the test results?

We also will be wanting to know more about the initial diagnostic tests, too -- what tests were performed and how they turned out. Sorry for so many questions upfront, but your answers will help guide us in finding answers for why Liza is feeling poorly right now.

Thanks!
Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and Liza! :)

More questions :o -

Is her appetite falling off?

How are her stools? Are they loose or diarrhea?

Is she nauseated? Has she vomited?

How is her energy level? Lower than usual?

Hang in there! The more we know the better insight we can offer and right now we want to try to make sure the cortisol has not gone too low so the answers to these questions will help a great deal.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome. The others have covered the questions to get you started.

We'll all try to help you figure out what is going on with your baby girl. Hang in there. Poor little thing.
How sweet of you to open your open your home to her. No poor little dog should be out on the streets alone. You're awesome for doing that. :)

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Simba's Mom]

Hello and welcome to you and Liza, I have a Doxie too, seems like there are quite a few on this site....anyways this site is awesome, I have learned so much on this site, and going to the vet with what I learned is so helpful...take care and settle in, you are in good hands here....

[spdd]

Welcome. I am new to the forum too and searching for many answers, so although I can't help you, many are here and willing to help. They are marvellous here- I call them my Cushing experts. Guaranteed eventually with all the knowledge here, you'll get your answers.

[djsweis]

She weighs approx. 10 pounds and she is on 30 mg of vetoryl. She has not been retested and has been on it for a month. We are going to take her back to the vet for testing next week. She is eating still pretty good. She does not drink as much or pee as much. She threw up for the first time this morning. She does not have a lot of energy and could not lift herself this morning out of bed. She was also shivering. Her back legs are weak so she is walking pretty slow and with a little bit of struggle. The vet said the drug needed to be increased. I told my husband we need to decrease. I can't stand watching her struggle. Her stools are real loose now also.

[Simba's Mom]

That dose seems too high, my Simba started on 20mg, sent up to 25 mg and now is going back down to 18.3 mg, he weighs 21 pounds...it's a struggle to get them just right on the proper dose, but so worth it in the end...hang in there, sending hugs

[molly muffin]

oh dear, no no no. Stop the Trilostane. Starting protocol Now is more in the range of 1mg/1lb to start out.
Lethargy, vomiting, not eating, diarrhea are all signs of an over dose.

Protocol, is that an ACTH test be done to check levels at 10 - 14 days after starting, retest again at the 30 day mark, or if dose is adjusted then at 10 - 14 days after starting the new dose.

This is done for safety reasons as it is very easy to go into a crisis with vetoryl/trilostane and end up Addisons. Bad thing!

Can you get in to get an ACTH test and electrolytes today please, even if you have to go to the Pet ER and no more trilostane!! please.

My IMS even over voted my vet who wanted to put my 18lb dog on 30mg vetoryl and said it was too high to start out with.

This is super important. You little baby might need to put on an IV, be given a prednisone dose to save her life, anything at this point.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, sweetie, thanks for the extra info. For right now, until Liza can get to the vet for an ACTH, do not give any more Trilo. Do you have any prednisone? Is there any way she can get to the vet today for an ACTH? It sounds like her cortisol may be too low and it needs to be checked if possible along with her electrolytes.

[frijole]

Chiming in to agree with the others - the dose is too high for a 10 lbs dog. Protocol has changed and vets are now told to only go one mg per pound so in your case you would be at 10 mgs vs 30 a day. That explains the diarrhea and the vomit and the shivering and the inability to get up.

Cease giving it. If she gets worse go to ANY ER location for an acth test immediately and also have them check the electrolytes. She might need to be put on IVs.

In the meantime in addition to quitting the trilostane you can go purchase Pedialyte (given to infants). Get the unflavored kind and mix it 50/50 with water. It helps replace electrolytes affected by overdose. If you can't get her to drink it give it to her via syringe. Just a little bit at a time.

The drug leaves the system quickly so within 24 hrs she should have relief. That said, if she acts like she's dying (lethargy, can't move, losing fluids) get her to an ER of any sort for testing.

Your vet was flat out wrong about increasing the drug and I am wondering how much experience they have in using it. It is clearly outlined here:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196

Kim

[molly muffin]

Checking in to see how Liza is doing.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Hello and welcome from me too.
I am sorry for the reason that brought you here, but so glad you found us. You have come to the right place! There are many K9Cushing's angels standing by to help and stay with you every step of the way. They love details, test results, any information you can get your hands on. It looks like you've already made a good start with that. We will do all we can to help. I am so sorry that Liza has been feeling so poorly. Hopefully once you get her dosage reduced, she will start to feel better. hugs,

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin',

How is Liza doing?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[djsweis]

Thank you everyone, we stopped giving her the medication. We did have predisone and gave her half in the am and half last night. She seems to be doing a bit better this morning, the shaking is gone. She is not really drinking that much. I am going to give her some pedialyte today and see how that goes. We will be taking her to the vet Monday. I am not understanding why this vet did not want to test her after 14 days, they wanted to wait for 30 days and that is not the protocol for the drug. I will be asking all these questions tomorrow for sure and will not give her more than 10 mg's of any medication. Has anyone not given the medication to their pup and used more of a natural approach? I am very anti meds and would love some thoughts and ideas on maybe treating her with a more natural method.

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok....hold up on the Pedialyte. We have been talking with one of our members who's pup is permanently Addison's now and she says using the Pedialyte could actually cause more harm than help if the potassium is already out of whack. So until the electrolytes are checked, pass on the Pedialyte. Keep giving the pred if needed. He should perk up pretty quickly. ;)

[djsweis]

Ok no pedi. She seems better this morning for sure. Her breathing is easier, and the shivering is def. gone. Will keep all posted. Thank you so much for all of your posts. We love this little girl and hate to see her suffering. She has already been through so much and just want her to feel better and have energy. :)

[molly muffin]

We are right there with you! That is the entire purpose of this forum to help our furbabies to live our normal, healthy lives.

The good thing about Trilostane is that you Can stop it. If you then seen improvements after stopping, there is a good chance that was the culprit of what was wrong. That dang Dechra insert (decades old) is something that needs to be changed, since vets often use it and get it wrong, by doing so. That and every dog is different and responds differently to any medication so close monitoring is always necessary.
Hopefully Liza will have a good day and so will your family. We want a bouncy, playful Liza. :)

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[frijole]

Re holistic approaches - sorry to say none have been proven clinically to work. For this reason the 2 options for treatment continue to be lysodren or trilostane. The key to successful treatment is having a knowledgeable vet and an involved owner. You have 1/2 the equation going for you. I can't answer why he didn't follow protocol but we have noticed that vets that haven't treated a lot of cush patients don't seem to understand how critical dosing is and how badly things can get if they don't follow protocol. You are wise to ask him/her and perhaps knowing you are researching and asking the smart questions will make him/her spend a bit more time learning about how to treat the disease.

Glad that Liza is doing better this morning. Note that because you did give the prednisone (which was the right thing to do) the results from the acth test will be slightly HIGHER because it mimics cortisol.

Hoping you have a relaxing Sunday. Kim

[Concernedmom]

You are correct Holistic approaches have not been proven but right now there are two homeopathic remedies that are giving good results for clinical symptoms. I can only speak for my dog and he has been doing well for 4 months. I know of one other member who has also decided to follow the homeopathic approach. Will it continue long term. I don't know but I take one day at a time. I hope your Liza feels better

[Tina]

Hi,

Just checking in to see how Liza is doing this morning.

Tina and Jasper