New member Tess - Homeopathic treatment

[Tess]

Hi. I am new to this forum. My name is Kathleen and I live in the North East of England. I have been reading the thread on Jubilee with interest. I have three 'rescued' dogs named Tess, Murphy and Poppy. I recently had to have a much-loved Jack Russell euthanized. He was 13 years old and I now suspect he probably had Cushings. Two weeks after he died, Tess started to drink and urinate excessively. I took her to the vet who suspected Cushings and carried out various tests. The results indicated that she did have this disease. As I am strongly into complementary medicine and I also use a homeopathic vet as well as my conventional vet, we all agreed that I would try the homeopathic approach first because there is an established homeopathic protocol for treating Cushings disease. I am therefore using a remedy which has Quercus rubor (derived from oak) and ACTH in it. It is in a liquid form. For the first 5 days, Tess was given one drop twice a day. She now has one drop once a day. I also give her homeopathic Arsen alb, Sulphur and Hepar sulph to help with the excessive thirst etc. And I have also modified her diet and no longer give her commercial dog food. She is on a high protein, low fat diet with lots of vegetables and some pasta. I prepare her food freshly every day. I add tinned pumpkin and milled flaxseed to her food and I give her Vitamin E oil, Vit D3 oil and Aloe Vera gel. I will let you know how we get on.

[labblab]

Hello Kathleen, and welcome to you and Tess! I noticed you had posted this reply on another member's thread, and I have taken the liberty of copying it here so as to start a new thread that is your very own. This way, it will be easier for our members to reply to you directly.

As it turns out, we have another British member who is also using the Quercus rubor/ACTH combination for her dog:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4702

Here's a link to the study that she has cited for us, and I suspect this is the same one to which you are referring:

http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2008/BITSNPIECES/CUSHINGS/cushingsresearch.htm

It will be wonderful if it proves helpful to you. My reservation in thinking that it is broadly useful for treatment of canine Cushing's is because I have not been able to find any other follow-up research or professional citation subsequent to the time that the article was first published over a decade ago. I would have thought that other professionals would have jumped on the bandwagon by now in the event that the treatment had been replicated or standardized. But having said that, I do see anecdotal references, especially to treatment of horses with Cushing's. So we will be very interested to see whether or not Tess improves while on this regimen.

As you will see from reading other threads, we are a very nosy group when it comes to wanting to know specific test results and health histories. So any additional info you'd care to share about Tess and her diagnostics will be much appreciated.

Once again, we're glad you've found us and will be very interested in following Tess' progress.

Marianne

[Budsters Mom]

Hello and welcome from me too.
I am sorry for the reason that brought you here, but so glad you found us. You have come to the right place! There are many K9Cushing's angels standing by to help and stay with you every step of the way. They love details, test results, any information you can get your hands on. The more the better. We will do all we can to help. So again welcome to you and Tess.

Hugs,
Kathy

[Tess]

Dear Marianne

Thank you for your warm welcome. My homeopathic vet says he has treated a number of dogs with Cushing's with some good results, so it will be interesting to see if this approach helps Tess. Apart from the excessive thirst, urinating, appetite and slightly swollen abdomen, Tess is not yet exhibiting any of the other symptoms which I have read about. She seems otherwise happy and is still keen to go walking lengthy distances with our other dogs.

With regard to letting you see her results for the Low Dose Suppression Test, together with haematology, biochemistry and endocrinology results, it would be simpler if I could scan these and insert them into my reply. If you could explain how I can do this, I would be grateful. When I tried to insert a picture of Tess, a message came up about URLs and I hadn't a clue what to do next.

[molly muffin]

Hi Kathleen and welcome to you and Tess.

What you can do is scan them and then upload them to an album you create. That is pretty simple and you upload directly from your computer.

Go to User CP, on the left side is pictures and album, just add an album, name it and upload. Let us know if you run into any problems.

You can't upload jpg's directly into the text on the forum. So the album route would be the best way to load a scan.

This sounds promising if your homeopathic vet says she has had success using this approach. Does she have the cortisol levels rechecked to see if they are going down or if it is just a matter of symptom control without truly lowering the cortisol. I'd love to see the cortisols rechecked after treatment and see where those numbers end up at.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kathleen,

A belated welcome to you and Tess from me as well! Also, if it easier you can email Tess' test results to the forum's email addy which is k9cushings@gmail.com.

My condolences to you on the passing of your sweet boy. We are here for you and will help in any way we can, and please do not hesitate to ask all the questions you want.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Tess]

Thanks to everyone for your concerns and advice. If a similar message to this also arrives in my 'thread' then I apologise for that.

Thank you, Lori for the information about sending Tess's results by email. I have done that now and would be grateful if someone cleverer than me can insert the results into the relevant place.

With regard to my homeopathic vet, I have also emailed his details to k9cushings.com so you can learn more about him.

Regards

Kathleen

[Concernedmom]

Hi Kathleen and "Tess"

Did you get to read the link Marianne sent you? This is the same information my holistic vet gave us to read when we were interested in treating our 13 year old maltese. We tried Trilostane first but he just didn't do well so we decided to go the other route. He is on Quercus Robur and Adrenocorticotrophin (pellets) 1 pellet every 12 hours of each remedy and 2 pellets of each in his drinking water every day. We also switched him to a homemade diet from kibble. He takes The snake and the dragon Teapills, fish oil, Vitamin E, Canine geriatric basics. This is everything the vet started him on and we started February 28th.
Within a few days his excessive drinking, peeing, panting, and appetite were under control. The pot belly decreased. Fur started to grow and now no more bruising. We realize that it doesn't bring his cortisol levels down but for us it doesn't matter because his bloodwork is good and his symptoms are controlled. He's a happy little guy and that's all we want is to see him happy. We don't know if this will last because there isn't anything else written about it but for now we enjoy him. I hope you get the same results with Tess

[molly muffin]

Actually I wonder about that concerned mom, whether or not the cortisol has maybe come down, since all the symptoms including hair regrowth has occurred and his blood work is now good. Have you ever had the cortisol tested again?

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Hi Kathleen, just wanted to let you know that we've received Tess' lab results in the k9cushings gmailbox. So by tomorrow, one of us staffers should have a chance to review them and post any abnormals here on your thread for the purposes of discussion.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kathleen,

I have reviewed Tess' lab results and posting any abnormalities that are listed.


5/21/2013
ALT 154.1 U/L (5,0 - 60.0)
ALP 420.9 U/L (<=130.0)
Bile acids (fasting) 18.4 umol/L (0.1 - 5.0)
Triglycerides 3.21 mmol/L (0.30 - 1.20)
Lipase 210.6 U/L (0.1 - 200.0)
Inorganic phosphorus 1.73 mmol/L (0.80 - 1.60)


Just wanted to note that Thyroxine (Microgenics) 21.1 nmol/L (13.0 - 51.0) and CBC panel was normal. Also I converted the LDDS results into ug/dl which are the units we are used to seeing. ;)


5/28/2013

LDDS test base: 62.4 nmol/L (25.0 - 125.0 0 ((2.26 ug/dl)(.9 - 4.5))
4 hour 63.2 (2.29 ug/dl)
8 hour 66.8 ( <= 40.0 ) ((2.42 ug/dl)(<=1.44))

Note from vet: Results consistent with hyperadrenocorticism where there are compatible clinical signs. Absence of significant suppression in response to dexamethasone is sometimes seen in pituitary dependant hyperadrenocorticism, however this patteren is more commonly seen in adrenal dependant disease.



I will come back later with my thoughts but I am sure the others will be by to share their opinions as well.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Tess]

Good Morning, and thanks to the clever 'staffers', Marianne and Lori for posting Tess's results. I'm afraid the information is still all a bit 'gobbilidook' to me as I haven't yet had time to thoroughly research what everything means. It is clear though that Tess's fats are elevated and her bile acids are certainly excessive. Is that because bile is needed for the digestion of fats? What is ALT and ALP? Whatever they are, they are certainly very high, aren't they? What is the significance of these figures? So many questions.

We had a second 'dry' night last night, albeit I was up at 05:00hrs to go to the bathroom and saw that the kitchen floor wasn't awash with urine. I then left the patio window open when I went back to bed so Tess could come and go as she pleased. (A habit we have slipped into over the past few weeks.) Fingers crossed, no wildlife comes into the dining room. :)

I have a question for Concernedmom. I see that you are also using Quercus Robur and ATCH. When you say you are using this remedy in the pellet form, what does this mean? Is a 'pellet' the same as a tablet or a pilule? I have been given the remedy in liquid form and Tess is now only being given one drop a day. And can you tell me more about snake and dragon Teapills and Canine Geriatric Basics please?

On a personal level, I believe that Tess would be too stressed by having regular tests for her condition. When she had the initial LDS tests, she came home and drank for England - couldn't stop - and was clearly distressed, so I would be reluctant to put her through such a trauma on a regular basis.

Have others had a similar reaction with their pets?

Thank you

[goldengirl88]

Hi Kathleen:
I wanted to say welcome to the group. I am very interested in seeing how your baby does on this treatment. My only concern would be if the cortisol has not come down, even though the blood work is good. Since it damages organs, wastes muscle etc. I would want an ACTH done to see what level the cortisol was at. Curious to see how this treatment goes, as I am all for holistic approaches if they truly work. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Good Morning, and thanks to the clever 'staffers', Marianne and Lori for posting Tess's results. I'm afraid the information is still all a bit 'gobbilidook' to me as I haven't yet had time to thoroughly research what everything means. It is clear though that Tess's fats are elevated and her bile acids are certainly excessive. Is that because bile is needed for the digestion of fats? What is ALT and ALP? Whatever they are, they are certainly very high, aren't they? What is the significance of these figures? So many questions.

Yes, bile acids do break down the fats. Usually, though, when a bile acid test is performed there are two blood draws, the first draw is the fasting and then a fatty meal is feed and then another blood draw is performed 2 hours later. This latter blood draw I did not see on Tess' test results, maybe ask the vet if this was done?

ALT = (Alanine amino transferase) and ALP = (Alkaline phosphatase). The ALT is an enzyme that is found in the liver, muscle (cardiac and skeletal), kidneys, and red blood cells.
The ALP, also an enzyme, can be found in the liver, bone, gut, white blood cells, Kidney, and mammary gland.

There are many things that can raise the levels of ALP. The ALT is more liver specific but other issues can elevate the ALT, medicines used for seizures and steroids can cause higher levels.

We do see elevations in the ALP and ALT with dogs that have Cushing's disease.



On a personal level, I believe that Tess would be too stressed by having regular tests for her condition. When she had the initial LDS tests, she came home and drank for England - couldn't stop - and was clearly distressed, so I would be reluctant to put her through such a trauma on a regular basis.

Have others had a similar reaction with their pets?

Thank you

Dogs can become really stressed while at the vets office. The LDDS test is an eight hour test and many dogs will be agitated/nervous when the visit with the vet is this long. The ACTH stimulation test does not take that long, depending on the stimulating agent used, the ACTH stim test can be performed within 1-2 hours.

Tess' LDDS test does indicate that she has Cushing's but I don't believe it is indicative to adrenal hypercorticism. 85% of dogs with Cushing's are pituitary based. Hopefully the others will stop by and share their opinions as well.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Tess]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, Lori. You certainly are knowledgeable about this condition.

I don't know if you read the note under ENDOCRINOLOGY on the Low Dose Suppression Test which stated:-

;Results consistent with hyperadrenocortism where there are compatible clinical signs. Absence of significant suppression in response to dexamethasone is sometimes seen in pituitary dependent hyperadrenocorticism , however, this pattern is more commonly seen in adrenal dependent disease.

A high dose dexamethasone suppression test to differentiate pituitary dependent from adrenal neoplasia would be indicated. Please ring if the protocol for this test is required.

A small proportion of dogs (10 - 20%) will still fail to suppress at the high dose despite having pituitary dependent disease. It is recommended that, where adrenal neoplasia is suggested by the high dose test, confirmation should be sought by another modality (abdominal radiographs, ultrasound of the adrenals.)

Regards

Kathleen

[Harley PoMMom]

I don't know if you read the note under ENDOCRINOLOGY on the Low Dose Suppression Test which stated:-

A high dose dexamethasone suppression test to differentiate pituitary dependent from adrenal neoplasia would be indicated. Please ring if the protocol for this test is required.

A small proportion of dogs (10 - 20%) will still fail to suppress at the high dose despite having pituitary dependent disease. It is recommended that, where adrenal neoplasia is suggested by the high dose test, confirmation should be sought by another modality (abdominal radiographs, ultrasound of the adrenals.)

Regards

Kathleen

Hi Kathleen,

I did see that ;) However, the HDDS (high-dose dexamethasone) test has fallen by the wayside. More vets are performing an abdominal ultrasound to help validate a Cushing's diagnosis when the LDDS test results indicate Cushing's but it is unable to differentiate between pituitary or adrenal form of Cushing's.

Love and hugs, Lori

[Concernedmom]

Hi Kathleen
I call them pellets but I guess you would call them little pills. I did a google search on Quercus Robur pills and here's a link so you can see what they look like. The link shows a picture of 3 pill sizes but my bottle doesn't say what size pills i have. They are tiny. I started using them March 1st and the bottle isn't even half empty. Both are 2 oz bottles Quercus Robur 30X Adrenocorticotropin 30C
http://www.homeopathyworks.com/product.php?xProd=2626

We were told by the vet the pellet has to be crushed into a powder to work. Never give it whole or crush it and give it with food. We put the powder on a spoon and he licks it off. This is very important.

The snake and dragon Teapills are little tiny black pills. He takes 1 every 12 hours. I get them from my vet but here is a link of what the bottle looks like. I get the same brand shown in the link.

http://www.heavenearthchineseherbs.com/store/pc/The-Snake-The-Dragon-Teapills-5897p32.htm

The Canine Geriatric Basics was given to use kind of like vitamins to supplement his homemade diet. Here is a link to the one I use. I give 1/2 capsule sprinkled on his food per day. He's 14.3 #

http://veterinary.thorne.com/Products/VetGeneralSupport/prd~V937.jsp

I would love to know what his cortisol level is but since we wouldn't put him back on traditional medicine even if these remedies failed I guess it doesn't really matter. Plus the ACTH is expensive.

His symptoms are controlled and his blood work and urine is good right now. He's happy and seems to be healthy so we take one day at a time.

If you have anymore questions I'm here if you need me. We're all working towards the same goal some of us are just walking a different path.
Please keep us posted on how Tess is feeling. I really hope and pray she sees the results that mine has. It's made such a difference so far.

[Tess]

Hi Kathleen,

I did see that ;) However, the HDDS (high-dose dexamethasone) test has fallen by the wayside. More vets are performing an abdominal ultrasound to help validate a Cushing's diagnosis when the LDDS test results indicate Cushing's but it is unable to differentiate between pituitary or adrenal form of Cushing's.

Love and hugs, Lori

Hi Lori,
That's interesting. I suppose I thought that a scan of the adrenals would show if there was a tumour present there and that this would indicate the adrenal form of the disease.

[Tess]

Hi Kathleen
I call them pellets but I guess you would call them little pills. I did a google search on Quercus Robur pills and here's a link so you can see what they look like. The link shows a picture of 3 pill sizes but my bottle doesn't say what size pills i have. They are tiny. I started using them March 1st and the bottle isn't even half empty. Both are 2 oz bottles Quercus Robur 30X Adrenocorticotropin 30C
http://www.homeopathyworks.com/product.php?xProd=2626

We were told by the vet the pellet has to be crushed into a powder to work. Never give it whole or crush it and give it with food. We put the powder on a spoon and he licks it off. This is very important.

The snake and dragon Teapills are little tiny black pills. He takes 1 every 12 hours. I get them from my vet but here is a link of what the bottle looks like. I get the same brand shown in the link.

http://www.heavenearthchineseherbs.com/store/pc/The-Snake-The-Dragon-Teapills-5897p32.htm

The Canine Geriatric Basics was given to use kind of like vitamins to supplement his homemade diet. Here is a link to the one I use. I give 1/2 capsule sprinkled on his food per day. He's 14.3 #

http://veterinary.thorne.com/Products/VetGeneralSupport/prd~V937.jsp

I would love to know what his cortisol level is but since we wouldn't put him back on traditional medicine even if these remedies failed I guess it doesn't really matter. Plus the ACTH is expensive.

His symptoms are controlled and his blood work and urine is good right now. He's happy and seems to be healthy so we take one day at a time.

If you have anymore questions I'm here if you need me. We're all working towards the same goal some of us are just walking a different path.
Please keep us posted on how Tess is feeling. I really hope and pray she sees the results that mine has. It's made such a difference so far.

Thank you so much for this information. Yes, what you call pellets is what I would call pilules. All the homeopathic tablets and/or all the pilules that I have seen so far do not vary in size regarding physical appearance. However, they can vary in potency, i.e. 6c, 30c, 100c, 200c etc up to what is known as various Moles, in strength. I understand that 1 Mole is equal to 1000c. There are also homeopathic nosodes which are potentised substances of whatever is causing the health problem. ACTH is one such example. My son-in-law was once allergic to cat fur until he was given a nosode for cat fur and has never had a problem since. We are advised never to handle the remedies but to drop them directly into the mouth, because touching them can affect their efficacy. So, with tablets or pilules, I drop 2 of these into a glass or plastic container and then drop them into my pets' mouths. Metal is supposed to counteract the remedy which is why I use glass or plastic. Other things can also affect the remedies, such as strong smells, peppermint toothpaste etc. We are also advised to take the remedies at least 20 minutes away from food. In Tess's case, the Quercus Rubor is being administered in liquid form, currently as drops because she does not like the spray version.

I am also giving Tess a multivitamin called 'Almost Human, Superdog, Ultimate Nutrition.' I buy these from a company called Higher Nature. And, as you have probably seen, I am giving her a variety of other things too.

Regarding the snake and dragon Teapills - were these prescribed by your vet, or by a qualified herbalist?I am a little uncertain about Chinese herbal remedies because, although I recognize their power, I do not know enough about them regarding contraindications etc.. Do you feel that the Teapills have made a significant difference to your dog? Incidentally, what is his name? It sounds as thought he is doing well so far which is great news.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Lori,
That's interesting. I suppose I thought that a scan of the adrenals would show if there was a tumour present there and that this would indicate the adrenal form of the disease.

If bilaterally enlarged adrenal glands are seen then the diagnosis is PDH. With ADH a tumor is visualized on one adrenal gland and the other adrenal gland is often atrophied.

[Concernedmom]

Hi Kathleen
My pups name is Buddy. Yes he is doing better than we ever thought he would. We are also realistic and know that he's 13 and at that age anything can happen. We always have that in the back of our minds.

Wow, you know a lot about homeopathic remedies and taught me some things. I am very new to this and only started with the 2 that Bud is on. Interesting what you were told about the remedies and the handling affecting the efficacy and the metal and how we were specifically told to crush between 2 spoons and have him lick. We did not see a qualified herbalist.
He is a conventional vet who integrates alternative medicine. He is a member of The American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association.

I totally understand your view on the Teapills. Yes the teapills and the canine geriatric basics plus the 2 remedies were all prescribed the night we left his office. We started him on the Teapills the same time as all the remedies so I couldn't tell you if there is an affect or not. Only way of telling at this point would be to take him off. I have not heard of your multivitamin before.

Thanks for all the info. Keep in touch

[Tess]

I posted a reply to Buddy's mum but it has disappeared. I'm afraid it was a rather lengthy message about the trauma of losing my Jack Russell, Jack. Can anyone explain why it fell into a black hole? Perhaps it was just as well because it was a rather shocking description which would only upset people.

[Trish]

Hi Tess

This thread might provide the answer ...
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1329

Hope that helps for your future posts! :)

[Tess]

Thank you Trish.

That's really helpful.

[Concernedmom]

Hi Kathleen
You haven't posted in awhile and was wondering how Tess is doing on her homeopathic remedies? Could you give us an update?
Thanks

[LtlBtyRam]

Hi. I also have 2 vets a traditional and holistic Chinese. Our holistic vet put Shasta on a Free and Easy Wanderer Teapill. We were just looking to supplement her traditional Trilostane. We were really happy with the results. It is really interesting to read about the other stuff you guys are using, and I look forward to following your threads.
Angela