Haley - 16+ schnauzer (Update: Angel Haley has been released)

[frijole]

Hi guys!

Haley is getting her teeth cleaned today and her first adequan shot. I have given her fish oil and glucosamine w/SAME for joint pain but she really has struggled with getting up and down so I caved.

I remember Scott saying he has had success with it. Any advice on coping with arthritis? The doc also recommended zubrin but Haley had that for an episode a year ago and she quit eating.

Poor thing - the list included: blood panel, teeth cleaning, check out her schnauzer bumps since 1 looked scary (he removed 4), clip the nails since the groomer didn't have the heart to do it last week, look at her nose - it is dry dry dry and scaley. When she eats she uses her nose to move the bowl (eyesight loss?) and so her nose and her schnauzer beard are a total mess. Her nose seems to hurt it is bone dry.

Since she is nearly blind and nearly deaf but otherwise a happy little "pup" - I appreciate any advice on caring for her at this stage in her life.

Thanks!
Kim

[Barney's Mom]

No advice here, but the Adequan sounds like a wonderful idea. Can you put some type of moisturizing balm on her nose for dogs?
Cheryl

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Kim,

I wrote this to Gina "Lucygoo" recently...

"There are a couple articles on this site, "joint decisions" & "shock wave therapy" (under the "My Whole Dog Journal Articles" heading), that you might want to read and think about for now. I've only read the "joint decisions" one - I think it's a good article that discusses several options, including the underwater treadmill & adequan."

http://www.dogaware.com/

Hope it helps.

Is there something like an ointment that can be put on her nose? Maybe even chapstick? She'd probably lick it, so you'd want something that's okay for her to injest. A long time ago, I left Wylie in the car for about 10 mins... when I came back, I saw that he went through my purse. He chewed up my chapstick (non-flavored, black label) - he didn't injest any of the plastic, just chewed and spit out all the plactic, but the all the wax was gone;)!

-Susy

[Carol G]

Winnie periodically had a very dry, cracked nose and I used to put chapstick on it -- it seemed to help. I used one of the natural ones (probably want to avoid any of the flavored ones like peppermint which might tingle or fruit flavored which could encourage licking). She had her own tube (we didn't share).

I wish I had answers to give you on the arthritis.

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[Buffaloe]

Hi Kim,

It seems like Scott has alot of experience with the pain issues/arthritis. I've been giving Shi quite a bit of glucosomine and chondroitin for several years along with fish oil. She gets around well for her age so she doesn't take anything for pain. I think there's an excellent chance that the adequan will help Haley alot.

The vet will probably have some good ideas to help Haley's dry nose. Here in Arizona I have a bunch of aloe vera plants and it is very soothing for burns and dry skin although I don't think it is real strong. But, I don't think aloe vera would hurt her. My other idea is breaking open vitamin E capsules and putting it on Haley's nose; hey, she can always use a little extra vitamin E. But, I think your vet will have some good ideas.

I was going to say, GO HUSKERS!! but I'm hesitant. I played against them twice back in the early 70's and they were SO ridiculously good. Those darn "black shirts," I never saw an open receiver in two full games. But, I always root for the Cornhuskers...exept when they play my Buffs.

All the best with Haley. Shi sends kisses.

Ken

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Kim,

Hey, girl...you didn't cave, you're taking care of Haley!!! You gotta do what you gotta do! Sure hope the Adequan injection will help ease her discomfort and help with her mobility.

Gosh, I remember the dry nose issue being discussed last year and somebody recommended a cream that human mothers use while nursing their babies. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the stuff. Maybe somebody else will have their memory triggered.

I hope Haley's "head to toe" goes well today. Give her some extra lovin' from me....and cousin Munchkin!

Louise

[gpgscott]

Kb,

My first experience with Adaquane was with an elder boston (Mitzi) with degenerative disk issues. At that time it was not a listed treatment for dogs, it was an equine med but I had a Dr. who pushed the envelope. It helped her greatly.

What we did with Moria was a ramp up of once weekly injections for a month and then once a month thereafter. I swear by it. If you are paying more than $10.00/cc from your local Dr. you need to be buying it online. I use 1800petmeds.com. Moria at somewhere around 60 lbs gets 1.5cc/month.

It is not hard to admin, an IM injection in the front of the thigh, I just pinch Moria and then stick it in, she does not notice.

Sharon is also administering it, I think to Nike.

Scott

[frijole]

Well Haley made it thru the day ok although she does look like she got into a catfight and LOST! She has stitches in 4 places - each area is about an inch wide... including one on top of her head. :(

But she is acting like a pup! You would never know she was under anethesia earlier. She has a bad canine tooth (crooked) that has gingivitis and they packed it with that oral gel stuff. That is where the infection is.

Scott - how long before you noticed the adequane kicking in? He recommended the same routine 1 a week for 4 weeks then monthly. I haven't dared look at the bill breakdown - the total was enough. ha. I've never given a shot before. yikes.

So she has antibiotics to take for the teeth.

EnteDerm Ointment for the nose. (antibacterial)
An eye ointment (non steroidal) for the goop

She needs her own bathroom for all this stuff - the laundry room is overflowing with the stuff I have bought for these furry critters. :eek:

On the phone he said that if you took some of the crud off of her nose and tested it it would probably contain lupus? WTH? Can you believe that when I was going over everything with him it was my #1 question and I remembered it but then forgot!? It was 5:45 and they close at 5:30. He is real laid back but his entire staff was standing there waiting to be dismissed and I flippin forgot to ask about his comment. Might have to call him on that. When he gave me the ointment he just said it is an age thing - very common.
That hurts her more than anything else. She bites me when I try to clean it so I know it is painful... as she is laid back and never does that.

Anyway my little senior is home, fed (after fasting) and now happy.

Thanks to all - I have some reading to do.

Kim

[frijole]

Hi Kim,


I was going to say, GO HUSKERS!! but I'm hesitant. I played against them twice back in the early 70's and they were SO ridiculously good. Those darn "black shirts," I never saw an open receiver in two full games. But, I always root for the Cornhuskers...exept when they play my Buffs.

All the best with Haley. Shi sends kisses.

Ken


Ken you have NO IDEA whatsoever what a raving lunatic Husker fan I am. My dad was a college coach and friends w/Osborne. Did you play for Colorado?! Were you on the team that ended up #3 behind NU and OU? Those were the days! Blackshirts are back bro! I went to the spring game and boy they looked tough. Pelini is back. You can tell by the sounds make when they hit. :eek: Look for a DT named SUH to go All American. Kid is a total beast. You cheer for ASU?

Thanks for the help w/my little one. Do you use fish oil in capsules or liquid? I finally figured out the rust colored stains I was finding all over my clothing was from oil flying out of capsules when I poke them. The stain is real tough to get out. I bought some chewables but they aren't as strong.

Hugs from us too!
Kim & the girls

[frijole]

Hi guys!

Haley is getting her teeth cleaned today and her first adequan shot. I have given her fish oil and glucosamine w/SAME for joint pain but she really has struggled with getting up and down so I caved.

I remember Scott saying he has had success with it. Any advice on coping with arthritis? The doc also recommended zubrin but Haley had that for an episode a year ago and she quit eating.

Poor thing - the list included: blood panel, teeth cleaning, check out her schnauzer bumps since 1 looked scary (he removed 4), clip the nails since the groomer didn't have the heart to do it last week, look at her nose - it is dry dry dry and scaley. When she eats she uses her nose to move the bowl (eyesight loss?) and so her nose and her schnauzer beard are a total mess. Her nose seems to hurt it is bone dry.

Since she is nearly blind and nearly deaf but otherwise a happy little "pup" - I appreciate any advice on caring for her at this stage in her life.

Thanks!
Kim

That information on shock therapy was very interesting. I am wondering if they have tried it on humans yet. Sounds like the results on dogs have been very good. I'd try it. :D

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
I hope Haley is doing well tonight.

I had a question on those Schnauzer bumps... Are or were they just little bumps or lumps? The reason I ask is that some Schnauzers are known to have these little bumps that may result from grooming technique's. Sometimes called "Schnauzer Comedone Syndrome" basically caused from clogged hair folicles. Most groomers go right to shaving with clippers, many dogs including Schnauzers sometimes need to be stripped or carded. It's just a proceedure to pull the loose hairs from the skin, promoting a healthy skin and coat. After the proceedure, then we go on to use clippers to get that nice smooth Schnauzer cut.

Just an FYI :)

Give Haley some belly rubs from me.

[AlisonandMia]

I'd try it too - on my shoulder!!

I know shock wave therapy isn't painful but speaking of "shock treatment" I've found that I've got to really hurt my shoulder/upper arm to make it get better. The more painful whatever I do is the better it will be the next day. I discovered this by accident with a mishap with a shopping trolley. Better go do my (brutal) exercises!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Alison

[frijole]

John

They are bumps - actually look more like warts. Haley never really had a problem with them getting infected or growing until cushings hit. They get elongated and grow and grow. When she first was diagnosed I let one go because she was loading and it took months. This thing seriously grew 1/2" wide and was almost 2 inches long. It finally cracked open. Split lengthwise down the middle. Course it happened on a weekend. The other thing is that Haley's (since cushings) now turn black when they enlarge. They start out clear/whitish.

Interesting that grooming could make a difference. What is carding? :o Is that like combing? LOL

[frijole]

I'd try it too - on my shoulder!!

I know shock wave therapy isn't painful but speaking of "shock treatment" I've found that I've got to really hurt my shoulder/upper arm to make it get better. The more painful whatever I do is the better it will be the next day. I discovered this by accident with a mishap with a shopping trolley. Better go do my (brutal) exercises!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Alison

Hook me up to the same machine. :D:D:eek::eek::D:D Please share what painful exercises help because I'm ready to have mine removed. ;)

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
Doesn't sound like the same thing. The Schnauzer bumps are like the size of pimples. Carding or stripping is a method used to pull the loose hair from coarse hair type dogs. Usually use a type of tool that used like a comb but it pulls the loose hairs out. Very tight toothed comb. We call it a carding knife. We also do hand stripping, this is when a groomer uses his finger and thumb to pull the loose hairs out.

Not all Schnauzer's have this problem but it's not unusual to run across it.

More belly rubs to Haley:)

[Buffaloe]

Hi Kim,

I use a knife and put a slice in the fish oil capsule and squeeze it over Shi's food. I think she really likes the taste. I know exactly what you mean about the stains, I've messed up several good shirts. I've been noticing these little orange stains on my kitchen cabinets right above where I prepare the fish oil. Coincidentally, just a few days ago I finally figured it out, they're from the spraying fish oil liquid. Now, I put my hand over the capsule before slicing it so it sprays on my hand....hopefully. Oh well, anything for my Partner.

Kim, everybody I've ever met from Nebraska was a huge Cornhusker fan so I figured you probably were. Yep, 1971 the Big 8 teams were rated 1-2-3 (Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado) in the nation after the bowl games and I don't think any conference has ever had the top 3 teams nationally before or since. I was the starting QB for Colorado in '71 and '72. Like Bruce says, glory days....it was so long ago it is frightening. But those Nebraska teams under Devaney with Johnny Rogers, Rich Glover, et al....just way too good and absolutely first class.

I'm sure the vet has something better for Haley's nose than the things I mentioned. She sure is a tough girl! You gotta enjoy every single solitary moment you have with Haley just like I have to with Shiloh...every moment.

Ken

[AlisonandMia]

I snip the very tips off the capsules with sharp scissors which I more or less keep for that purpose as it is hard to get the fishy odor out completely. This usually works fine and there is no splashing or spilling. I have, on occasion, been a little cavalier with squeezing them out though and that would explain the weird, slightly sticky orange stuff on the kitchen cupboards I guess.:p:o Just the other day I was wondering what that stuff could be.....:rolleyes:

I have tried using a knife and found the scissors to be much more predictable and makes accidents pretty unlikely whereas the knife is pretty messy and quite often results in a bit of "crime scene".

A

[Carol G]

I used to cut the end and squeeze the oil on the food but for the past year or so I've just been giving the whole capsule with cheese spread or pill pocket around it. Picky as he is, McGill gets them down fine that way. Is there any reason not to be doing that?

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[AlisonandMia]

McGill gets them down fine that way. Is there any reason not to be doing that?

I shouldn't think so - not from the dog's point of view. My main fear is that Zac will chomp into it with his back teeth and send fish oil everywhere.:eek::eek::eek: He very rarely chews anything - he's a what's called a "gulper" - but just my luck one day he'd give a capsule a good crunch and I'd be finding the stuff all over the place for the next month!

(Zac is only 3 years old and has no pain/orthopedic stuff going on tas far as anyone knows but he's getting the fish oil preemptively.)

Alison

[forscooter]

Hey there.....Bailey will also just bite into and chew his fish oil capsules...no squirting!:p

I have to tell you I was reading about bumps and then saw where Ken started off with:


I use a knife... And I thought OMG!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

I need more rest....

I wish I could help with the stiff joint thing...I am still debating on trying the shots with Bailey but have to admit I am a bit of a chicken with the teeth in my foot incident!:cool:

Sending you and the girls lots of hugs!!!! Beth and all the boys

[frijole]

Morning guys. Long night. She was very restless and made those "low noises/sighs that sound like pain" most of the night. Not alot of sleep and Annie my other dog was shaking - probably wondering what was up. Haley seems fine this a.m. Ate just fine. I don't have anything for pain. Just the antibiotics.

Since I was up I did a little research on nose crust - and my vet's comment on lupus. Lord I hope this isn't what she's got - you treat it with steroids. Yeah right. Anyone ever hear of this: discoid lupus? It is of the skin. Crap.

http://my-pet-medicine.com/2008/01/05/canine-discoid-lupus-erythematosus/

On to a more jolly topic - fish oil. I found that "hydrogen peroxide" if put on and allowed to soak will take the stain out - most of the time. I too had it on the walls in my laundry room where I use it. Nothing was working to remove it. I can't remember if I tried vinegar but the hydro peroxide worked.

Here's to a good day all. Thanks for your thoughts - Haley says HI

Kim

[gpgscott]

Scott - how long before you noticed the adequane kicking in? He recommended the same routine 1 a week for 4 weeks then monthly. I haven't dared look at the bill breakdown - the total was enough. ha. I've never given a shot before. yikes.




Kim, it took a few weeks and she becomes less mobile near the end of the month, sometimes I only wait 3 weeks, it is not toxic so there is no harm in more frequent admiinistration.

Scott

[ladysmom06]

Hi Kim,

Sorry:( to hear that Haley had a rough night but happy:D:D she seems fine this morning.


On to a more jolly topic - fish oil. I found that "hydrogen peroxide" if put on and allowed to soak will take the stain out - most of the time. I too had it on the walls in my laundry room where I use it.

Thanks for solving my mystery. I had those stains on a lot of shirts of mine and could never figure out what it was - ended up throwing them all out. It was funny bc they would only be on my clothes - I thought maybe it was my perfume now I know it was the fish oil.

Hugs to you and the gang.

Luv,
Lynne and Angel Lady 7/98-3/09

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Kinda out of touch at the moment but I have been reading along and keeping you and Haley in my thoughts.

Hope you both have a good day and restful night.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Wylie's Mom]

I'm sorry Haley was aching last night.

About the fish oil... I use a relatively thick needle - I think the bigger hole is the reason why I don't get the uncontrolled squirting. Vitamin E is another issue... it is so much thicker, I would have to squeeze it tighter and it would sometimes burst... I found that if I poked 2 or 3 holes at one end, I wouldn't have to sqeeze so hard and was able to control it better.

I'm glad I read your link... I didn't know that zinc oxide was toxic to dogs... I have put some sunscreen (containing zinc oxide) on Wylie in the past.

Hopefully, it isn't lupus, but if it is, maybe it will be enough to use the (non-zinc oxide containing) suncreen & the oral vitamin E or omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids????

-Susy

[forscooter]

Kim,

I hope Haley has a better night tonight and is already feeling better. I never heard of the Lupus in dogs but just did a read through the link you gave. Like Susy said, I am hoping the alternative treatments work to give her some relief.

You know I am always sending you all my best!
Love and hugs, Beth and the rest

[frijole]

Beth I hadn't heard of lupus in dogs either and it seems like the skin only version is even rarer. It does seem like it can go away but the sun makes it worse. Poor girl. Its supposed to get real hot this weekend so I'll have to get up to speed and smart quickly.

Haley has never been a whiner and hearing those moans all night about killed me. And her sis Annie shaking like a leaf was so sad. She knew something wasn't right. She appears OK now but she did until retiring last night.

My vet is off on Wed. but I called in and got some tramadol just in case. I will only use it if she appears to need it. Seems like alot of you guys have successfully used it so that was good to see. I only got 5 pills. LOL

Well... I'm going to find my little "Pooh Bear" (that's my name for Haley since she cuddles like a teddy bear) and put some goop in her eyes and more goop on her nose.

Hugs to all. And glad I could help with the fish oil! Nothing would take that off my painted walls. (except hydrogen peroxide) who would have "thunk" it?

Kim

[forscooter]

Kim, I agree, having one in pain or uncomfortable is the absolute pits! And then add the other and you just don't know who to do what for! I remember after Bailey's surgery this past September, I slept on the floor for a few nights with him. The first night was really rough and Scoobie was skulking around bc he knew something was "wrong". I was lucky bc my best friend who loves the boys almost as much as I do, stayed with me a few nights. But by the time she left, Bailey was still healing and used to me by his side every moment....and then Scoobie was still so confused...and I thought I was going to lose my mind bc I didn't know who needed me more! But somehow we got by....somehow I think they sense that we are taking care of things. But yes, there is nothing like a pup in distress for any reason...and they just can't have a conversation with you...and aarrrggghhhhh!!!!

So, I wish you ALL sweet dreams tonight....enjoy your cuddles....and give the girls kissies from us and tell them Aunt Bethy said it will all be OK bc she knows they have the bestest mommy!

Sweet dreams! Beth and the others

[AlisonandMia]

Yes, with Lupus of any kind (SLE or discoid) avoiding sun/UV is a first-line "treatment". I have a friend with (relatively mild) SLE and she is more or less symptom-free if she avoids all sun exposure. She covers up with gloves and the works when out during the day - even driving - and goes walking or swimming only after the sun goes down. Otherwise she's on and off pred all the time and feeling exhausted and awful and even ended up in hospital several times when she was younger before she was diagnosed (which took about 10 years!). Each hospitalization was triggered by a big sun exposure.

Is some sort of biopsy going to be done on Haley's nose to confirm the suspicion of Lupus? I can imagine that chopping into her poor nose isn't something anyone would want to do lightly though.


Alison

[frijole]

Alison,

Wow I feel for your friend - that has to be a terrible way to live... but what can ya do? I have a cousin with lupus. She's 65 and looks 85. Luckily she has a companion that takes great care of her as she travels with an oxygen tank.

Re Haley, no the vet didn't suggest a biopsy - I'm assuming because of Haley's age and health. He is very compassionate and I think he felt we should treat it with cream and see what happens which is fine. I just can't put her thru any more right now.

I feel badly because I recently built a patio room onto my home and that is where I have put the girls during the day while I work. I thought the sunshine, warm yellow walls and all those windows would be more comfy and stimulating for the girls. I think it was too much sun and will have to move them. Flip side is maybe her condition will go away. :confused:

Interesting that Haley has decided to hang out tonight instead of retreat into my room where its dark. Its been a while so I'm hoping she is feeling better.

Man I need a full night's sleep. I'm too old for slumber parties. :rolleyes:

[frijole]

Had a scare today. It involves poop and vomit.

As some of you know Annie has had a urinary tract infection and just finished up 2 weeks of Baytril... still unsure if she is back to normal.

I came home to find vomit in 2 spots. Unsure which dogs. So I looked in their puptent (kennel) they are in for most of the day. There was poop all over the blanket! It was flattened (not runny) but all over the thing.

One pile of vomit had food chunks in it. The next was clear to the point that I wasn't sure if it was vomit or clear pee. (Haley's color)

Then Haley vomited in front of me. Totally clear, about the consistency of spit. I called the vet. She has an appt at 9 am already for an adequane shot. I withheld food. He said to take water away as well for 4 hrs at least to give her stomach a chance to rest.

She has definitely failed as in cognitive over the last few months. Sometimes she is perky and others she is spacey. She is walkng around right now. Probably looking for water.

To top it off my 4 yr old nephew will arrive any minute and I am babysitting him overnight. :(

Vet said to call if anything changes. There is no 24 hr care facility for animals in this town so you have to call an emergency no. and he did call right back.

Kim

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

Moria does the same, one day she is great and then another she is the space kid.

And she is also wierd about eating, vomiting,... sometimes I think she eats things just so she can yuck them up:eek:

I hope it is just an elder issue you are dealing with.

I bet the 4yo will be fine with it.

Scott

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
Wishing you and Haley well. Hope it turns out to be nothing serious.

[frijole]

Not good. She just vomited a small amount of rusty colored something and a few seconds later vomited the clear stuff? WTH?

She is walking into walls... calling vet now. Advice just in case? Sigh. Scared.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,
Wishing you and Haley well. Hope it turns out to be nothing serious.Me too.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[frijole]

off to meet the vet

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Oh, Kim....

I'm so sorry. Sure hope Haley will be alright. It is scary and very upsetting when you know something isn't right and being all by yourself doesn't help matters. Hope your vet can determine what's going on and help your little girl. Saying a special prayer for both of you.

Louise

[frijole]

OK.. back from the vets. She had a small fever (1 degree over normal). He checked her for stroke - no signs of that. He looked at the rusty vomit sample I brought in and said it was probably bits of dried blood and something seen frequently and not to worry about that.

He felt we caught it early enough that it wasn't pancreatitus. He did give her an injection of fluids, an anti-inflamatory, and an injection of Cerenia for vomiting. He said Cerenia is relatively new and one of those "how did we live without this drugs". Says one pill and they stop vomiting. He gave me one to give her tomorrow and a spare since I have old dogs. ha. She also was given Baytril.

He said to give her stomach an hour to settle down and the meds to take effect and to see if she's take a bit of water. He said to keep a close eye on her and if she is not her normal self in the morning to bring her in and they would put her on IVs. He said, "you will know".

She is resting now at least. She was walking real slowly earlier... slowly pacing. By the time we got to the vets she wouldn't even step up the curb at the vets. I had to pick her up. And her breathing was labored.

Gonna be a long night. Hugs to all. Prayers appreciated. No matter how old they get, they are still our babies. Kim

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

No matter how old they get, they are still our babies.

That is so true, Kim. I'm glad you're back home and Haley has her tummy meds. I hope there is nothing out of the ordinary tomorrow and she'll show improvement. Yeah....I know what you mean about a long night. After Munch had those teeth removed I could hardly sleep - needed to periodically check out his breathing "just because" and the poor guy couldn't blink his eye without me hovering over him. He was better the next day and I was a mess!!

Louise

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,


No matter how old they get, they are still our babies.I agree too, and it is just so heart-breaking when they are feeling yucky.

Hoping the meds do their job, and sending tons of healing thoughts and prayers your way.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[frijole]

She is sleeping and did not want to be bothered with water. I am going to leave her alone and will check on her throughout the night/morning. Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

My brother's system went down and I am just now able to get back here. I am so sorry that Haley isn't feeling well today. :( We old folks do have a hard time with digestion from time to time so hopefully that is what is going on plus the infection and fever making her feel poorly. Tomorrow with the meds on board I hope she perks right up and is back to feeling more like herself.

My thought and prayers are with you, sweetie,
Leslie and the girls

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Kim,

Just checking in to make sure all is ok. You're not here so Haley must be resting and hope you are too. Nite-nite!

Louise

[labblab]

Oh Kim, I am so sorry to hear what an awful night you girls have had. Hugs and prayers coming your way -- I surely hope that Haley will be feeling better this morning!!!

Mariane

[frijole]

Got up several times to check on her. She was either sleeping or just resting. Put fingers of water to her lips and finally at 6 she took it! She started lapping and boy did it make my day.

I went back for another hour of shut eye. Got up and she was still in the tent but very alert. She drank some more. I got brave and gave her a TBS of food. She ate it! Actually after she ate eagerly the first bite I quickly rolled all her meds in little bites and she ate them all.

She hasn't gotten up yet but she is holding her head up and looking around.

[labblab]

WHEW!!!!!! This is such good news! :)

Fingers crossed that she'll just keep doing better as the day goes on.

Marianne

[Barney's Mom]

What a relief the hear that she is better this morning. I think eating and drinking is a very good sign, especially if she is able to hold it down. Sounds like you all had a pretty horrible night :(

[frijole]

She is sitting up now. She can walk fine but slowly. Her problem seems to be with joints. Getting up from sitting position, going up steps. She is tentative. Vet opens in a few mins. and I'll phone him with update.

[Harley PoMMom]

So happy Haley ate and drank for you. I agree with Cheryl that this is a good sign that she is feeling better.

Will also be keeping fingers crossed that she will continue to get better as the day goes on.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[AlisonandMia]

She is sitting up now. She can walk fine but slowly. Her problem seems to be with joints. Getting up from sitting position, going up steps. She is tentative. Vet opens in a few mins. and I'll phone him with update.

Just having a quick look in before I go to bed. You know, that sounds like what Mia was like when her cortisol was low - tentative and looking like she was walking on egg shells.

Fingers crossed here.

Alison

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Good to hear that Haley is feeling a bit better this morning and able to take some nourishment. I can imagine your relief when she took those first few drops of water from you!

Here's to a progressively better day for you both!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[frijole]

Just having a quick look in before I go to bed. You know, that sounds like what Mia was like when her cortisol was low - tentative and looking like she was walking on egg shells.

Fingers crossed here.

Alison

Alison, I was thinking the same thing when this happened. The weird thing (a blessing in disguise?) is that drugstore.com did not deliver the lysodren order and so I MISSED Wednesday's dosing and of course today. I will have a stim done when things get better to see where we are.

She is sitting in her little tent looking around. No sickness so far. Vet said to give her tiny amounts of food and water every few hours and watch her like a hawk. So that is where we are. K

[frijole]

Hi Kim,
Good to hear that Haley is feeling a bit better this morning and able to take some nourishment. I can imagine your relief when she took those first few drops of water from you!

Here's to a progressively better day for you both!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

Thanks. I dropped off the nephew so I can get back to cleaning up the carpet and picking up all the toys. It is a disaster around here. ha. I might have to take a nap! :eek:

[Nathalie]

Hi Kim,
I am glad that your Haley is feeling better.
Have a good nap. :)
Nathalie

[frijole]

She refused water and food at 10. I managed to get her to take a few drops of water off my finger at 10:30. Tried food again at 11, no interest in it or water.

Took out chicken broth. She liked it. Ate an ounce. Tried water again, only a bit off my hand. So I gave her 2 more ounces chicken broth.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

The broth will probably provide enough water to keep her hydrated plus give her some protein and fats she needs, so that's a good thing for her. Keep offering the water, but as long as she will take the broth, I wouldn't worry overly much about hydration.

The meds may be making her feel icky, too. :(

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers,
Leslie and the girls

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

The broth will probably provide enough water to keep her hydrated plus give her some protein and fats she needs, so that's a good thing for her. Keep offering the water, but as long as she will take the broth, I wouldn't worry overly much about hydration.

The meds may be making her feel icky, too. :(

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers,
Leslie and the girls

Good to hear that... I was getting ready to search for your comments about pediolyte in case I needed it... appreciate the kind thoughts. She is my little girl even if she is headed to 16.

[Roxee's Dad]

Keeping you and Haley girl in our thoughts and prayers today.

[muskyhusky]

I may be new here, but have you tried giving him pedialite, you can give to dogs.

[frijole]

I may be new here, but have you tried giving him pedialite, you can give to dogs.

Too funny... I just posted about that because I have read OTHERS did it. I never had kids so don't even know where in the store you buy it. Is it a liquid? See i am naive on this :p

[Harley PoMMom]

It is a liquid, and it is usually sold in the baby section.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Kim,

Pedialyte is a liquid but as long as she is getting some fluid and not vomiting or having diarrhea, she may not really need the Pedialyte. It is found in the baby food section of stores, tho, just in case. ;) It comes in flavors but I use the unflavored...it has a salty taste to it VS fruit, etc. If you are using an unsalted, canned broth adding a bit of the Pedialyte probably wouldn't hurt, but if you are using a regular canned broth, it has more than enough sodium in it.

You're doing good, sweetie. Keep your chin up, k?
Sending all things positive your way,
Leslie and the girls

[frijole]

I checked and it is all natural chicken stock (33% less sodium) but there is sodium in it.

She just took 2 more ounces. I have been hesitant to give her too much at a time. Thanks Leslie. K

[frijole]

It is a liquid, and it is usually sold in the baby section.

no wonder I never saw it. :p

[acushdogsmom]

Just having a quick look in before I go to bed. You know, that sounds like what Mia was like when her cortisol was low - tentative and looking like she was walking on egg shells.

Fingers crossed here.

Alison


Alison, I was thinking the same thing when this happened. The weird thing (a blessing in disguise?) is that drugstore.com did not deliver the lysodren order and so I MISSED Wednesday's dosing and of course today. I will have a stim done when things get better to see where we are.

She is sitting in her little tent looking around. No sickness so far. Vet said to give her tiny amounts of food and water every few hours and watch her like a hawk. So that is where we are. KHey Kim, Just got online and saw you had a rough night last night with Haley. I hope she's feeling better and better as the day goes on today.

With a cushdog, usually the first thing to rule out would be low cortisol ... but oddly enough, sometimes we may not think to suspect low cortisol, especially if we've had good control for a long time. Although it may or may not have anything to do with low cortisol, maybe you need to find out where her levels are.

My boy surprised us several times (especially when he was much older) with too-low cortisol, and it was on the very same dose that had kept his numbers perfect for years.

When was the last stim done and what were the results? Is Vet planning to do a stim again soon? And depending on when the vet wants to do a stim, maybe it would be a good idea to see if some pred would perk her up? Or does the vet think that giving pred is not a good idea at this time for some reason? Pred can be a bit hard on the tummy if given orally without food, but vet may also have other reasons not to give pred right now. Then again, if he thinks she might benefit from some steroid supplementation, but doesn't want her having pred right now, maybe he could give a dex injection and see if that helps?

P.S. Even if the cortisol isn't too low, sometimes when they reach the age that Haley is at right now, they may feel and do better if their cortisol levels are allowed to run a bit higher than what we were aiming for before.

[frijole]

Cushy, thanks for chiming in. She is due and I wanted to do it last work up but she had so much else going on we were afraid the results would be skewed. I forgot to mention it at 10 pm last night when we were talking and remembered it when I got home... so I will discuss with him when we get this settled.

Obviously if other issues are more serious then the stim takes a back seat. :( Oh and she was 3.8 last time. She had very slowly slid up not down but I am reminded quite often by others here on how things change so I understand what you are saying.

[BestBuddy]

Kim,
I am sorry you and Hayley are having a tough time at the moment. A little bit of food and water is a real success and remember those "baby steps" all add up. Hoping Hayley improves each day.
Jenny

[frijole]

Thanks Jenny. It really is hard to remember that the babysteps are important. I purchased some pedialyte and since she wouldn't touch it (unflavored) I mixed it with the broth and she drank it right down. She seemed perkier late afternoon so waited another hour + and gave her 2 tsps of canned food and slipped her antibiotic in it. She ate that too.

She spent most of the afternoon upright. Not walking though. She is now starting to walk. She even went up and down the steps to go outside to potty. Progress.

She also went to the spot where she gets a treat! ha. That made my day. We will definitely retire early tonight.. never did fit that nap in. Kim

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,
Great news on Haley, Thoughts and prayers for continued improvements. Even if it is only baby steps:)

After going to her special treat place, did she get that treat?

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Kim,

I'm so glad to hear Haley continues to do better and is now walking again and taking small amounts of nourishment. That was quite a scare last night! Add my prayers to John's for continued improvement.

Louise

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

So glad to read that Haley has made progress! :D And I know you are!!! :D Hope it continues!

Adding my prayers to those of John. Louise, and many others,
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[gpgscott]

Hi K,

Vandy and I played all day yesterday and I did not get online. I am sorry that Haley was giving you fits.

It sounds better now and hope it continues that way. I keep ensure around, it is sweet has plenty of calories, no lactose and when Moria is fussy I find she will lap at it when she does not want anything else.

Hugs. Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Just checking in on Haley and you. How are things today?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[frijole]

I am at work so don't know how today is going... a neighbor is checking in on her every few hours.

Yesterday she continued to improve. I gradually increased the amount of food and chicken broth/pedialyte. She never got sick. She started getting up on her own and walked more. She can go up the steps but not down. (3 steps from patio to outside)

The other thing is that she has missed 2 lysodren dosages and she is peeing up a storm. I am letting her out every couple hours. Sunday morning when she got up she was totally drenched from neck to tail. I am waiting to do a stim until she has recovered enough from the stress to get an accurate reading.

If she was not sick today I plan on giving her lysodren. She last vomited on Friday. Thoughts???

Fingers crossed,
Kim

[StarDeb55]

Kim, I have been following Miss Haley's progress & am very glad to hear that she is on the mend. I would think lyso today would be ok with one big but, she has to eat & eat well. I absolutely do not give Harley his lyso if he will not eat his dinner. I end up moving his dosing days around because of this at times, but I feel it's better to be safe than sorry.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

I hope Haley continues to improve... she never showed any signs of abdominal pain, right?

-Susy

[frijole]

Kim, I have been following Miss Haley's progress & am very glad to hear that she is on the mend. I would think lyso today would be ok with one big but, she has to eat & eat well. I absolutely do not give Harley his lyso if he will not eat his dinner. I end up moving his dosing days around because of this at times, but I feel it's better to be safe than sorry.

Debbie
Debbie, thanks! I really trust your opinion on this as you have been there/done that. Haley has a HUGE appetite right now. I have been conservative in increasing the amount of food she gets as I was so worried about rushing it.

My vet suggested I give her one of the "anti vomit" pills, wait an hour after eating and giving her that and THEN give the lysodren.

[frijole]

I hope Haley continues to improve... she never showed any signs of abdominal pain, right?

-Susy

? Confused what you mean by this... she vomited everything she had in her on Friday and there was nothing left and she was in severe distress with alot of pain - and yes in her abdomen. Since then she has been eating fine but I have limited what she gets and slowly added canned food back into the mix with an increase each time. Thanks, Kim

[gpgscott]

Kim,

I would not even dare guess concerning the administration of the Lysodren given your present circumstance.

You have had some good advice, and you have a good gut.

I say go with that.

I bet you and Haley do well with your gut:D

Scott

[frijole]

Kim,



I bet you and Haley do well with your gut:D

Scott

Lets not discuss weight gain! :eek:;):D

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Kim,

I was asking about the abdominal pain because I was thinking about when Wylie had his gall bladder attack... he had vomitted occasionally in the past, but the gall bladder attack was different - he arched his back, from discomfort (even when he wasn't in the process of vomitting)... this was only on the first night of vomitting... he had a hard time finding a comfortable lying down position when he was finished vomitting and wanted to rest.

Are you home now? How's she doing?

-Susy

[AlisonandMia]

I think its possible that the excess peeing isn't that significant - could be because of the chicken stock? The yummy chicken stock may have her drinking a lot more fluid than normal.

But nausea/vomiting and excess peeing does raise the possibility of kidney problems or a UTI. I know that old people often get UTI's but don't necessarily get the normal symptoms that younger people will get - maybe it's the same with dogs?

Alison

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

I was asking about the abdominal pain because I was thinking about when Wylie had his gall bladder attack... he had vomitted occasionally in the past, but the gall bladder attack was different - he arched his back, from discomfort (even when he wasn't in the process of vomitting)... this was only on the first night of vomitting... he had a hard time finding a comfortable lying down position when he was finished vomitting and wanted to rest.

Are you home now? How's she doing?

-Susy

Thanks Susy! Sorry I wasn't getting it. :D Am now home and spoke w/neighbor and all was fine today. I just gave her the food and am waiting an hour for the lysodren. She ate like a ravenous maniac. She isn't up to a full meal yet so she probably is hungry but I haven't wanted to push it. Scaredy cat. me

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Glad you came home to good news! :D I think you are on the right path with the slow feeding til she is back to normal intake.

Hope things continue to swing upwards!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

Very happy too that you came home to good news. And FWIW, I think you're right to give her smaller meals to let her tummy adjust.

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Wylie's Mom]

Thanks Susy! Sorry I wasn't getting it. :D
Oh, no… I’m sorry - I wasn’t clear on where I was coming from. I don’t know how common the gall bladder thing is and I realize that it tends to stick out more in my mind only because Wylie has the issue. We had a clue of the potential (before the attack) when his ultrasound showed sludge in his gall bladder. When he had the attack (vomiting), it was suggested by Alison that it could be either pancreatitis or his gall bladder (even tho I never mentioned the sludge findings to the forum before). Since your vet said it wasn’t pancreatitis (or you caught it early), my subjective self wondered about her gall bladder:rolleyes:.

I’m so glad Haley did well while you were at work:D. I agree with you about not pushing to the full meal too quickly. It’s been almost a year since the gall bladder attack and I believe Wylie could be ok going back to 2 meals/day; but since the IMS recommended keeping the small meals for the rest of his life, I’m still giving him 3 (sometimes 4) small meals per day:o. So, you can call me a scaredy cat, too;)!

And how is Miss Haley today?

-Susy

[frijole]

Suzy,

Haley has gained strength each day and I even gave her some kibble along with her canned food last night. She has not gotten sick since the Friday night event.

Thanks for asking! Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Kim,

Glad to hear Haley is doing better every day, that makes her mommy and all of us feel so much happier.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Wylie's Mom]

That's great news...thanks for the update:D;).

-Susy

[Squirt's Mom]

:D:D So good to hear, Kim! :D:D

[Roxee's Dad]

Always very good to hear good news. I'm glad Haley is feeling better.
:D:D:D

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

How has Miss Haley been feeling? I am hoping she is feeling all better, keeping all food down.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Barney's Mom]

Suzy,

Haley has gained strength each day and I even gave her some kibble along with her canned food last night. She has not gotten sick since the Friday night event.

Thanks for asking! Kim

Great news Kim!

[frijole]

She is still ticking! I am having pavers put in the back (new patio) and so the yard is all dug out and they can't go out the back door into the fenced area... instead they have to go out the front door and be put on leashes.

At first my 2 geriatric beauties refused to go down the front porch steps. Then they'd go out and stand in the driveway. Finally after several days they figured out they were supposed to go potty. :p

Annie guides Haley down the steps and then back up. She even goes out when she only Haley has to go potty. I think she likes her role as helper.

Kim

[Barney's Mom]

Annie guides Haley down the steps and then back up. She even goes out when she only Haley has to go potty. I think she likes her role as helper.

Kim

Awww! How sweet!

[Harley PoMMom]

She is still ticking! I am having pavers put in the back (new patio) and so the yard is all dug out and they can't go out the back door into the fenced area... instead they have to go out the front door and be put on leashes.

At first my 2 geriatric beauties refused to go down the front porch steps. Then they'd go out and stand in the driveway. Finally after several days they figured out they were supposed to go potty. :p

Annie guides Haley down the steps and then back up. She even goes out when she only Haley has to go potty. I think she likes her role as helper.
KimAwww!! Mommy's little helper and an adorable one she is.

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

Glad they are working together and very glad Haley is doing well.

Scott

[Buffaloe]

Oh yea Kim, you put in the beautiful pavers so you'll have a nice area outside to celebrate when your 'Huskers are up on my Buffs by about 30 in the 3rd. quarter! Colorado's just not very good...time for a new coach, a new quarterback and then recruit some athletes.

That is so cute how Annie guides Haley. Dogs never cease to amaze me.

Ken

[frijole]

Oh yea Kim, you put in the beautiful pavers so you'll have a nice area outside to celebrate when your 'Huskers are up on my Buffs by about 30 in the 3rd. quarter! Colorado's just not very good...time for a new coach, a new quarterback and then recruit some athletes.

That is so cute how Annie guides Haley. Dogs never cease to amaze me.

Ken

LOL... I am not sure I will be outside at the end of November but we should be able to beat up on the Buffs pretty well. WTH was that game all about? I will watch tomorrow nights game just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. Big time heat on the Hawk. Agree re needing new coach and a new QB... am reading though that funds are an issue to buy him out. I am hoping they keep him. ;):p:D Feel free to cheer us on if you need a Big 12 team to root for. Seriously... hope they can pull the W tomorrow night. GL and GBR!

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

Glad they are working together and very glad Haley is doing well.

Scott

Yeah... had a scare tonight. When I got home and told them to come to the front to go out Annie came running at Mach speed across the house with Haley running just as fast behind her... well... geriatrics aren't supposed to run that fast. Haley was limping real bad for quite a while. Chowed on food, smile on face, still limping. ha. But she is fine now so it was just a brief strain.

[Barney's Mom]

Yeah... had a scare tonight. When I got home and told them to come to the front to go out Annie came running at Mach speed across the house with Haley running just as fast behind her... well... geriatrics aren't supposed to run that fast. Haley was limping real bad for quite a while. Chowed on food, smile on face, still limping. ha. But she is fine now so it was just a brief strain.

Haha! Sorry you got such a scare, but I bet it did you good to see her so spry! :p Glad everything worked out OK!
Cheryl

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,


Annie came running at Mach speed across the house with Haley running just as fast behind her.
My oh my your girls sure are working in sync.

I am sorry also that your pretty girls gave you such a scare...but that smile on her face...Awww...priceless.

Hope Haley's limping days are over soon.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[frijole]

Well.. we did the ACTH last Saturday and the results are in: 2.5 pre and 8.1 post.

I was a bit surprised but discovered the last result was 5.3 and not 3.5 as phoned to me by the office help. Dang and that is the only test I don't have a copy of so lesson learned...

Haley's only cushings symptoms right now - not sure if cushings or age - is leakage. Sometimes its just a small bit which is why she's been on Proin for a long time, sometimes she is just soaked. I do NOT notice increased water intake. That was never her issue - it was ravenous hunger and hind legs shaking.


She eats slowly and usually leaves food. Her hind legs are fine. She is much slower due to age and is getting adequane shots.

I am not sure which direction to go and the vet said I could increase Proin or lysodren but only do one at a time.

She has been on 625 mgs lysodren a week (taken 2 doses) her weight is down to 16.5 lbs. So the dosage is 83 mgs per kg before any increase.

As I mentioned she has had to go potty out front due to construction in back yard... Frequently she isn't going on the grass but in the driveway... I am assuming this is age related?

I'd be interested in thoughts... I obviously want to balance quality of life into the equation so I'm not so "number driven" right now.

Apologise if I am less responsive, am having a hard time with this as I am experiencing "ice pick headaches" for the first time and it is difficult for me to concentrate... so bare with me and know I truly do appreciate your feedback and opinions.

Hugs from me and the girls... Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Kim,

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you...alas I don't, but I know you will do what is best for Haley, you have been giving her exceptional care and it shows ~ 15 + years !!! Wow!

What is worrying me is these, "ice pick headaches you are getting for the first time," these sound like migraines ~ clusters maybe, I get these, regular migraines and the cluster kind. But I've been getting these for over 25 years and my Mother (RIP) used to get them too. One usually does not get a migraine all of a sudden. Please take care of yourself and if anymore symptoms follow, please see a doctor, ok.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Kim,

Sorry, no words of wisdom here either. You are doing a wonderful job with Haley.


I obviously want to balance quality of life into the equation so I'm not so "number driven" right now.

I think you are exactly right. I would just want to make her comfortable in her senior years and not change too much at one time.


Apologise if I am less responsive, am having a hard time with this as I am experiencing "ice pick headaches" for the first time and it is difficult for me to concentrate...

You know that an apology is not necessary. I still often times have difficulty concentrating with Roxee's passing and 2 senior pups in our house.

"Ice Pick Headaches" I have had these for a few years now, started shortly after I had the hole in my heart (PFO) plugged which was dx'd shortly after I had a mild stroke. I explained it to my neurologist and he called them ice pick headaches. Never heard of them before or since until you mentioned it. Mine just feel like someone stuck an "ice pick" in my head, last for about 2 to 5 seconds and disappears. Sometimes multible times per day and sometimes I will go days without one. He said they don't know what causes it and nothing I can do about it. My wife always felt it was my damaged nerves in my brain try to heal or re-route itself.:o:)

Take care of yourself Kim, give Haley lots of love (like I need to tell you that :rolleyes: )

[Barney's Mom]

Hey Kim!
I am totally torn on which way you should go as well. With a post stim of 8.1, you are definitely creeping out of range, but if you don't see the excessive drinking, or excessive urinating, I wouldn't think that the urine leakage would be from excess cortisol levels. So maybe increasing the proin would be the way to go. On the other hand......your stim is definitely trending upwards, and you may be seeing the return of cushings symptoms soon if you don't increase your Lysodren dose or maybe a miniload?
AAAAH!
I can tell you I have had three vets over the last 6 months tell me I shouldn't be seeing cushing's related problems with a post stim of 10. :rolleyes:
We got him back on the lysodren, with a little bit bigger than normal first dose, increased his weekly dose and I am seeing a new and improved dog. He gets stimmed next week, so I will tell ya at what number I did see a difference.

So I guess during the writing of this post I have talked myself into the increase the lysodren camp.

And get your headaches checked out! ;)
Hugs,
Cheryl

[StarDeb55]

Kim, I just don't think an increase dose is appropriate right now since symptoms are minimal to non-existent. Remember, you have to treat the pup & not the numbers. That is what my vet & I have been doing with Harley for the past 8 months or so. I asked for an increase in Harley's maintenance dose several weeks ago because he was getting symptomatic, middle of the night trips to pee & to get a drink. His last stim had a post of 11, so definitely higher than Haley's. Harley's prior stim to that one had a post of 9 & he had been fine.

Debbie

[frijole]

Kim, I just don't think an increase dose is appropriate right now since symptoms are minimal to non-existent. Remember, you have to treat the pup & not the numbers. That is what my vet & I have been doing with Harley for the past 8 months or so. I asked for an increase in Harley's maintenance dose several weeks ago because he was getting symptomatic, middle of the night trips to pee & to get a drink. His last stim had a post of 11, so definitely higher than Haley's. Harley's prior stim to that one had a post of 9 & he had been fine.

Debbie

Only thing is... I have to do something about the urination... My poor carpet.. between Annie's bladder infection and Haley's leakage... I need to either put Haley on diapers (know nothing about them) or test a Proin/Cushings fix....

Sigh... thanks, Kim!!!

[StarDeb55]

I'm in the same predicament, & I have tile that's not quite 2 years old. Glynda & I worked out a perfect solution. I bought one of those "doggie playpens", & some incontinence bedpads that are used in hospital. I have lined the floor where the playpen is, thrown in a old quilt for both dogs to lay on. That is where they both go any time I leave the house, whether it's for work all day, or just a couple of hours. Harley didn't even have a problem with it, & he's never been confined in his life. I would much rather be washing bedpads than to continue having my tile/grout ruined, & investing a fortune in doggie stain remover products.

Debbie

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

Sorry, no words of wisdom here either. You are doing a wonderful job with Haley.



I think you are exactly right. I would just want to make her comfortable in her senior years and not change too much at one time.



You know that an apology is not necessary. I still often times have difficulty concentrating with Roxee's passing and 2 senior pups in our house.

"Ice Pick Headaches" I have had these for a few years now, started shortly after I had the hole in my heart (PFO) plugged which was dx'd shortly after I had a mild stroke. I explained it to my neurologist and he called them ice pick headaches. Never heard of them before or since until you mentioned it. Mine just feel like someone stuck an "ice pick" in my head, last for about 2 to 5 seconds and disappears. Sometimes multible times per day and sometimes I will go days without one. He said they don't know what causes it and nothing I can do about it. My wife always felt it was my damaged nerves in my brain try to heal or re-route itself.:o:)

Take care of yourself Kim, give Haley lots of love (like I need to tell you that :rolleyes: )

Yes... my ice pick adventure started at 7 am and I took a melatonin (from Haley's stash!) and 2 motrin and went to bed at 8:30 last night. Only woke up once. Mine were every 15 to 30 seconds - no pain in between but BAD when they came. Never stopped all day. I gave myself more motrin this a.m. just to be safe...

If they come back I will check in with a doc... I have had a very expensive 2 weeks with my healthcare (not related to this) so I am holding off. I read that most docs will do an MRI first but as you said - there is no "cause" for these nor a "cure" so doing a bunch of tests might not do anything except drain the account... lol

Again, thanks for the input on Haley... Kim

[frijole]

I'm in the same predicament, & I have tile that's not quite 2 years old. Glynda & I worked out a perfect solution. I bought one of those "doggie playpens", & some incontinence bedpads that are used in hospital. I have lined the floor where the playpen is, thrown in a old quilt for both dogs to lay on. That is where they both go any time I leave the house, whether it's for work all day, or just a couple of hours. Harley didn't even have a problem with it, & he's never been confined in his life. I would much rather be washing bedpads than to continue having my tile/grout ruined, & investing a fortune in doggie stain remover products.

Debbie

I have been putting Annie in the pup tent and Haley in the spare bath which is tiled.. She lies on a rug and I threw a blanket in there so that works... She has just got to the point where she doesn't bark much anymore and regardless if it is #1 or #2... she just goes. Bless her heart.

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Kim,

Sorry that Haley is having leakage problems. Don't know whether you would even want to consider this (or that Haley would go along with it :D). Anyway, I bookmarked a site where this fellow is demonstrating how to convert a disposable baby diaper for his paralyzed cat and also for a young dog. I was going to try to use this for my indiscriminate senior kitty but she wanted to have my face for a snack when I tried. :(

Here's the link if you'd like to take a look.

http://www.thingamababy.com/baby/2008/04/catdogdiaper.html

Louise

P.S. Hope you're feeling better soon too. This must be the "month of ills" for several of us.

[lulusmom]

Hi Kim,

I'm also torn as to what would be best for Haley. :(:confused::( Haley is up there in years so I agree that quality of life is paramount at this point. If she is peeing and pooping whenever she has the urge, regardless of her location, then I am more prone to think that it may be a cognitive problem, especially since she isn't drinking more. Increasing the Proin may, therefore, be the way to go.

I think that if a dog is otherwise healthy and tolerates Lysodren well, the post stim number needs to be within the desired range; otherwise, based on experience here, you are looking at a greater than 75% to 80% chance of having to reload. I know from experience that once the cortisol starts to creep up, it will continue to climb and symptoms will return unless you reload or increase the maintenance dose.

If I was in the same predicament, I would split the maintenance dose into no less than three weekly doses. If the Lysodren is in tablet form, I would crush the tablet and suspend it in a little bit of warm corn oil. If it is in a capsule, I would suspend the contents of the capsule in the warm corn oil and pour it over the food. This can dramatically enhance the rate of absorption into the bloodstream so splitting the maintenance dose into smaller doses throughout the week is a must. I am sure I don't have to tell you that other than for the purpose above, you should never open a lysodren capsule or crush a tablet.....and always wash your hands thoroughly and clean up any powder residue well.

Like we've all said a million times before, you know your baby better than anybody so whatever decision you make for her will be the right one.

Hugs,

Glynda, the furry crew....and one hairless wonder

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

You are dealing with no doubt aging issues on top of the Cushing's.

Moria is asking out every 3 hours or so now and Vandy and I are on constant patrol.

I recommend you give whatever supplement is suggested by your Dr. to control the leaking. You should be able to keep this in control if the pup is otherwise healthy.

I hope you find an answer soon.

Scott

[labblab]

Kim, I fear I have no suggestions to offer regarding any of your issues right now...:o

But I wanted you to know that I am reading and caring about you all! Hope some workable solutions present themselves soon, and that your headaches GO AWAY!!!

(((Hugs))),
Marianne

[frijole]

OK... I will go w/your advice and increase the PROIN. Anyone know how long it takes to take effect? LOL. Daily baths are killing me because she really does not like being messed with (baths, eyes, teeth, anything...)

I have to buy some corn oil - I only have canola. Does it matter? I think she'll gobble it up that way. I have pills so will have to crush them. Good thinking - I remember Alison talking about this.

So far knock on wood.. headaches subsided. Thanks to all for being there as always. Haley, Annie and I all appreciate it. :p

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Kim,

I am super cautious when it comes to meds for me or my pets....so you can kick my #$@ around the block for asking you this (as you have probably already done it)....you did or are going to discuss the Proin increase with your vet?

This is from 1-800PetMeds. I know Haley has the heart murmur now but isn't on any meds at the moment and I don't know if increasing the Proin would have any effect or not but I'd rather be safe than sorry.


Tell your veterinarian if your pet has glaucoma, hyperthyroid disease, diabetes, heart problems or high blood pressure.

Just because I'm super vigilant I'd be watching for these possibilities with an increase in dose.


Other side effects that may occur include restlessness, irritability, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure and loss of appetite. Continue to give the medication and contact your veterinarian. Other less serious side effects may occur.

Just ignore me if you're already aware of all this. Can't help myself....."cautious" is my middle name. :D

Louise

[frijole]

Louise, No problem.. glad you brought it up so we all learn... but it is ANNIE who has the heart murmur, not Haley. I know I have read some not so great things about Proin but Haley has been on it for a very long time and I just bought a massive supply of it about a month ago. Otherwise I might switch to another product. I do intend to keep a close eye on her however. And her dosage has been very low.. fingers crossed. Hugs, Kim

[Buffaloe]

Kim,

Shiloh has used Proin occasionally for the past year or so. She hasn't needed any for several months now, thank goodness. I've always used it sparingly and it's been effective. The first time, I gave Shi the dose my vet recommended and it sent her for a loop. She was breathing fast and couldn't relax...that's not Shiloh. From then on I never gave her nearly as much as my vet recommended and it was effective. There's no way I'm giving Shi anything that could hurt her.

Many moons ago, before her adrenalectomy, Shiloh leaked all the time for a couple of months. I got her a nice diaper at Petsmart and it worked fairly well, it helped quite a bit. I'm glad your ice pick headaches seem to be gone. I get the occasional migraine with aura...probably compliments of Rich Glover, Larry Jacobsen, Willie Harper, Bob Devaney's Blackshirts. Just kidding.

IMO, if you increase the Proin, watch Haley closely for increased heart rate, faster breathing and panting, inability to relax. Holy Toledo.:cool::eek::confused:

Ken

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Louise, No problem.. glad you brought it up so we all learn... but it is ANNIE who has the heart murmur, not Haley.

Oops! :o :o

L

[Barney's Mom]

Good luck with that Kim, and I hope poor Haley and mom gets some relief soon.

Cheryl

[frijole]

Kim,

Shiloh has used Proin occasionally for the past year or so. She hasn't needed any for several months now, thank goodness. I've always used it sparingly and it's been effective. The first time, I gave Shi the dose my vet recommended and it sent her for a loop. She was breathing fast and couldn't relax...that's not Shiloh. From then on I never gave her nearly as much as my vet recommended and it was effective. There's no way I'm giving Shi anything that could hurt her.

Many moons ago, before her adrenalectomy, Shiloh leaked all the time for a couple of months. I got her a nice diaper at Petsmart and it worked fairly well, it helped quite a bit. I'm glad your ice pick headaches seem to be gone. I get the occasional migraine with aura...probably compliments of Rich Glover, Larry Jacobsen, Willie Harper, Bob Devaney's Blackshirts. Just kidding.

IMO, if you increase the Proin, watch Haley closely for increased heart rate, faster breathing and panting, inability to relax. Holy Toledo.:cool::eek::confused:

Ken

Thanks Ken - I will certainly keep a close eye on her. When she first went on Proin the vet at the time recommended a whole pill and I remember a similar experience. Since her leakage was minimal I cut it down to like 1/10th of a pill and have slowly increased it over the course of many years. With this increase she is now taking a whole pill.

FWIW the blackshirts gave me a headache yesterday but it wasn't an icepick one... it was one missed play with 20 seconds left. My heart stopped too.

Kim

[frijole]

:confused:

I am open to any and all advice on how to grind up lysodren pills. Suckers are hard. So it wasn't all powder but my little piggy licked her plate w/that oil on it all clean.

[forscooter]

Kim,

I can only think to use the pill splitter if you have one...making lots of little slivers but I know that would be time consuming. I could swear around here in the drug stores though they sell pill crushers for people who need them ground....they are next to the splitters....maybe call your local store and see if they carry them?

Love and hugs, Beth

[Nathalie]

how about these Kim ....


Pill Cutter/Grinder
http://www.medi-vet.com/detail.aspx?ID=1924
Description: The pill cutter/grinder easily splits, crushes, and grinds any size pill or tablet for convenient dosing and stores pills for home or travel. The one piece cutter/grinder breaks down into a pill container, grinder, and cutter.


Pill Grinder (Shaver)
http://www.medi-vet.com/detail.aspx?ID=1664
Description: Grinds (shaves) one or more tablets into a powder with the turning of a handle so that medication can be mixed in food or in a liquid and given more easily to some pets.

Nathalie

[frijole]

Those look pretty cool Natahlie. I'm going to check at work as we do have some pet supplies and an on staff vet... I like the thought of grinding into something like those show.

I do have a pill cutter I could use in the meantime...Thanks!! Kim

[lulusmom]

I bought the pill cutter/grinder at Walgreens when I was nursing a foster back to health and it worked great!!!!

[Wylie's Mom]

I used a pill crusher before... just be careful... those pills are hard and there were times when I found that parts of the plastic had scraped off (clear plastic body, but blue plastic top- found bits of blue in the crushed lyso) and one time a piece of the thread broke off. After the crusher had no life left, I used the pill splitter to break the lyso into bits, in his glass feeding dish, I soaked the bits in oil (this softens the bits somewhat), then I crushed the bits with a thick metal spoon & let the particles soak longer in the oil. About the oil... I have no idea about the corn oil, but since I wanted to give Wylie fish oil anyway, that's the oil I soak the Lyso in. I now get Mitotane capsules... it's cheaper and I no longer have to crush Lyso pills.

Good luck!

-Susy

ETA - I looked at what Nathalie posted... the one I had crushed the pill... maybe the shaver might be better?

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Kim,

I just read your post on Scott's thread about Haley, poor sweet girl, I bet that scared the heck out of you when she yelped...poor you too.

Give precious Haley some nice gentle hugs from me and my boy Harley and softly tell her no more running down those steps and scaring her mom like that.

Harley and I are looking forward to celebrating her 16th birthday on the 15th of Dec. Haley truly is an amazing girl, and her longevity is a testament of the deep love and exceptional care that you are giving her.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[gpgscott]

Hi Kim,

Very glad you are recovered from the flu,


Except this time she had to go and just ran down the steps (only 2 of them) and she bounced down 2 steps and landed hard on the pavers and let out a yelp.

My heart just bled for her. She got up and limped. All I could do was hug her. She is fine now and I am sure has no memory of it... but I sure do.



Been there, done that way too many times.

Sometimes she waits for me and sometimes she just goes headlong.

Thing is the good days outnumber the bad ones for now.

We both know the score and I know we both also know we do not wish to have to act as the final scorekeeper.

Scott

[frijole]

Amen Brother Scott Amen.

She is just a month away from turning 16. I am sooooooo lucky. She was 12 when she was diagnosed with cushings. I know she had it for years before that. Treatment saved her life. But the people on this forum made that possible because my first vet was inexperienced.

I share this for anyone new to cushings. Treatment under the direction of an experienced vet and advice from k9cushings friends were key. She has lived a very normal and happy life post cushings. And I will enjoy each remaining day with her.

Thanks.
Kim

[frijole]

Haley is SWEET 16!!!!

Today my sweet little girl turns 16. Made her some rice and chicken breast to mix into her food and she is very happy. She is also sporting a new pink "jacket" with a little bling on it. :p

Photos to follow. (my battery won't charge, ordered a new one and it doesn't charge so had to use a disposable... so have to get photos developed)

I want to thank everyone here that has been a part of Haley's 3/12 year Cushings journey. You have all been an incredible help. Haley thanks you too. Hugs, Kim

[Carol G]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY HALEY

Carol & Atty Cat and always Winnie & McGill

[lulusmom]

:):D:):D:):D:)Happy Sweet Sixteen, Haley.:):D:):D:):D:)

[Harley PoMMom]

:D:) Happy 16th Birthday, Beautiful Haley! :):D

With much love and big, big hugs,
Harley and Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy Sweet 16th, Haley!


Huge hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[labblab]

Happy Sweet 16 from me, too, Haley Girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :)

Hope you and your mom have a wonderful day together! ;)

With tons of hugs from Auntie Marianne

[SasAndYunah]

And from us "Dutchies" all the best wishes for your 16th birthday too, Haley :)

Congrats to you and your mom :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[BestBuddy]

Happy birthday Sweet Sixteen., Haley.

They usually say sweet sixteen and never been kissed but maybe for Hayley is should be licked.:D

Jenny

[littleone1]

Happy 16th birthday, Haley. I hope you are having a wonderful day.

Terri

[Dollydog]

:D :D :D :D :D HAPPY BIRHTDAY HALEY :D :D :D :D :D :

Hope you and your human family have a great day! What an accomplishment to reach 16 years old!!!
((((((((HUGS))))))))

Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

:D :) :p Happy 16th Birthday, Haley!!! :p :) :D

New pink jacket with bling - - WOO-HOO! Munchie says, "Let's see".... pictures ..... pictures .... pictures

Louise

[forscooter]

HAPPY SWEET 16 HALEY!!!!!:D:D:D

I know your mom will make this as special as it can possibly be....and we are sending lots of birthday hugs and kissies straight your way!!!
Beth, Bailey, always Scoobie, Allo and Baby Pallie

[Roxee's Dad]

:D:D:D HAPPY BIRTHDAY HALEY :D:D:D

I know you enjoyed your very special day. Special Sweet 16 belly rubs to you. :)

[Buffaloe]

HAPPY 16TH BIRTHDAY, HALEY!!:D:D

That is quite an accomplishment! We hope you are having a wonderful day.

Ken and Shiloh

[gpgscott]

Dearest Kim, and Sweet Haley,

Wishing you a very happy birthday.

Scott

[SachiMom]

Kim,
Wishing Haley the happiest sweet 16 birthday. And giving you credit for being such a great mom to carry her this far. It's been a journey and you have done a superb job. I can't wait to see the "bling".
Luv & Hugs to you both ~ Mary Ann

[jrepac]

Happy, happy Birthday!!!

[Franklin'sMum]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:DHAPPY SWEET 16TH BIRTHDAY HALEY :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Hey sweet girl, hope you're having a wonderful day, congratulations to you and Kim.

Enjoy your special day,

Cuddles, kisses and belly rubs

Jane and Franklin xx
________
Starcraft2 replys (http://screplays.com/replays)

[frijole]

Could use feedback from anyone who has used Tramadol!

Haley was given 5 pills 6 mos ago for a minor incident and only had one pill.

Meanwhile... the 24" drifts of snow have started to melt in the back and I THINK - not sure - she must have tried to walk in the thick slushy stuff today and hurt her back or legs. It is also icy in places.

This morning I noticed her hind legs are weak and walking seemed painful. I had to leave and decided to give her 1/2 pill (the dosage prescribed last time). This evening I gave her another 1/2 pill.

Am wondering what the side effects are. She is making growling noises.. not a lot but periodically. Also her hind legs are now really slouched and she sometimes loses her footing and falls into sitting position. My heart is breaking.

We do not have an animal hospital here. We have vets who will drive in from their homes and meet you at the clinic. Am hoping the pain pills give her relief enough at least until the morning.

Thanks.
Kim

[BestBuddy]

Hi Kim,

I really don't know much about Tramadol other than it is an Opioid. I vaguely remember Nelson having it at some stage but I don't even remember what it was for other than pain, maybe when he hurt his back. I think it really zonked him out.

I hope it gives Haley some relief because I know how upset you must feel.

Jenny

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I'm so sorry that Haley is having pain and having problems with her hind legs. I hope she didn't damage anything with the fall.

Corky was taking Tramadol after he had his teeth extracted and the masses removed from his mouth. He took it for 5 days. After the first few days, I was able to lower his dosage. He didn't have any side effects from it.

I hope Haley wil be okay.

[Dollydog]

Hi Kim,
I'm sorry that Haley is having troubles with her legs. Lady took Tramadol for pain in her legs for the last 9 months of her life. She took a 1/4 of a pill twice daily and it helped her mobility immensely. Not sure what the cumulative effects were on her but at first there wasn't any problem....and at the end there were too many other things going on to know what was affecting what. :confused:
Hope someone else can come on and be more help. I can't remember exactly what the dosage was and I'm not near that info. If I remember anything else I'll let you know.
Take care,
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel

[zoesmom]

Oh, Haley baby. What have you done to yourself? Kim, Zoe's taken tramadol for awhile. What is the tablet strength for Haley? Zoe's are 50 mg. and I give her one in the am, one pm. And she's close to 80 lbs. When she first took them awhile back, the rx was for 2 - 3 at a time. Think it was after surgery but not positive. But the effect was that she was really knocked 'loopy' from that dose, even tho' that was a normal dose for her size. So we've stuck with just one at a time since we started using it for arthritis in an attempt to not have to use the meloxicm so much.

I'm wondering if the effect of the dose could be aggravating Haley's leg weakness - because it's made her drowsy-ish? On the other hand, it could be dampening any pain she might be feeling from an injury. If I had to guess, the growling sounds she's making might be from pain. Are they like low, complaint type of growling sounds. Like we might moan when we're achy?

I know how hard it is to watch them have to struggle with the standing. When you say her legs are slouched, do you mean they just won't straighten up so she can fully stand? She's not tipping over like she's dizzy, is she? When Zoe started with the vestibular syndrome last month, she couldn't get her footing at all. But maybe what you are describing is something entirely different? Is she still on lysyodren? She couldn't be having an addisonian episode, could she?? Sorry I don't have more to offer. Just grasping at possibilities. Don't know why these things always happen on weekends. What will you do - take her in to one of those clinics tomorrow? How far are they? I know that you've always had that problem . . . . with vets being so far away. Sue

PS - Haven't I read here that tramadol works on nerve/muscle pain. I know it does nothing to reduce inflammation.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hey Kim,
Some good info here:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html

Hope Haley is feeling better soon.

[AlisonandMia]

Can't help with the Tramadol question but would a little whiff of pred be in order considering her age and the pain and stress of the injury? Or, as Sue suggests, could it actually be low cortisol?

Hope she's feeling better soon. Poor old lady!:(

Alison

[frijole]

I have been reading about Tramadol online and know lots of people have used it and liked it on this site which gives me some relief.. I just don't know how quickly it works... couldn't see much in terms of side effects online.

Wracking my brain trying to remember the entire day and chain of events because I was in and out... and I remember now that I had to get Haley out of her bed this a.m. She has slept in more as she ages but now I am wondering if she had some pain then....

She was at the groomers yesterday. Major league ice. They have a kennel as well and she lets them out during the day. I am wondering if maybe she had a spell there because I was terrified wallking in and out on the side walk even though they had tried to remove it.

Its just tough because the poor thing is over 16. She can barely see and can't hear. She has seemed content... Seeing her struggle was like a knife to the heart. If pain meds can cure her then I'll gladly pamper her to her 18th birthday... but I want to do what is best for her... and I am scared.

She was lying by my feet and her back leg was shaking. I picked her up and held her. She is lying in her bed right now - not sleeping but looks drowsy.

Thanks guys -
Kim

[frijole]

Can't help with the Tramadol question but would a little whiff of pred be in order considering her age and the pain and stress of the injury? Or, as Sue suggests, could it actually be low cortisol?

Hope she's feeling better soon. Poor old lady!:(

AlisonI am going to answer all of Sue's questions in a minute... I thought of that but frankly I think her numbers are still high. She was at 8 post a few months ago. I elected to give her 2 days load and then back to normal dose vs pushing it at this stage since I got her incontinence under control by increaseing the proin... lord it gets so confusing. ha.

[littleone1]

My thoughts and prayers are with you and Haley.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

When Harley had his 3 teeth extracted he was on Tramadol 25mg, 3X a day for 5 days. He weighs 23.8 lbs and all the Tramadol did to him was make him alittle sleepy.

Now I did stop giving him the denamarin while he was on the Tramadol because they still don't know if these two should be taken together.

Hope Haley is feeling much better and will be keeping you and sweet Haley in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[frijole]

Oh, Haley baby. What have you done to yourself? Kim, Zoe's taken tramadol for awhile. What is the tablet strength for Haley? Zoe's are 50 mg. and I give her one in the am, one pm. And she's close to 80 lbs. When she first took them awhile back, the rx was for 2 - 3 at a time. Think it was after surgery but not positive. But the effect was that she was really knocked 'loopy' from that dose, even tho' that was a normal dose for her size. So we've stuck with just one at a time since we started using it for arthritis in an attempt to not have to use the meloxicm so much.

I'm wondering if the effect of the dose could be aggravating Haley's leg weakness - because it's made her drowsy-ish? On the other hand, it could be dampening any pain she might be feeling from an injury. If I had to guess, the growling sounds she's making might be from pain. Are they like low, complaint type of growling sounds. Like we might moan when we're achy?

I know how hard it is to watch them have to struggle with the standing. When you say her legs are slouched, do you mean they just won't straighten up so she can fully stand? She's not tipping over like she's dizzy, is she? When Zoe started with the vestibular syndrome last month, she couldn't get her footing at all. But maybe what you are describing is something entirely different? Is she still on lysyodren? She couldn't be having an addisonian episode, could she?? Sorry I don't have more to offer. Just grasping at possibilities. Don't know why these things always happen on weekends. What will you do - take her in to one of those clinics tomorrow? How far are they? I know that you've always had that problem . . . . with vets being so far away. Sue

PS - Haven't I read here that tramadol works on nerve/muscle pain. I know it does nothing to reduce inflammation.

Yes 50 mgs. So she took 25 mgs this a.m. and 25 mgs with dinner. That was the recommended dosage on the bottle. Seems from reading that given her weight of 15.5 lbs it is on the high end but within reason.

By leg weakness I mean - her butt is almost dragging on the ground. Visual aide: as she aged her butt and legs have slouched downwards instead of being straight. Normal aging... but now her "knees" are bent and she is really slouching.

Growls - yes, like low and achey. I asked about it because I read online about dogs making whining noises on it and wanted to know if it was from the drug or from the pain! ha.

I also noticed she didn't act like she could see at all and was standing facing a wall. She also walked into something in my office. From reading I think that might be the opiates...

The vets clinic isn't far. It is just getting them to come in on their day off. Did it once before when she was vomiting a ton and we met at night on a Saturday. Just took a while.

[frijole]

Hi Kim,

I'm so sorry that Haley is having pain and having problems with her hind legs. I hope she didn't damage anything with the fall.

Corky was taking Tramadol after he had his teeth extracted and the masses removed from his mouth. He took it for 5 days. After the first few days, I was able to lower his dosage. He didn't have any side effects from it.

I hope Haley wil be okay.Thanks!!!!!

[frijole]

Hi Kim,
I'm sorry that Haley is having troubles with her legs. Lady took Tramadol for pain in her legs for the last 9 months of her life. She took a 1/4 of a pill twice daily and it helped her mobility immensely. Not sure what the cumulative effects were on her but at first there wasn't any problem....and at the end there were too many other things going on to know what was affecting what. :confused:
Hope someone else can come on and be more help. I can't remember exactly what the dosage was and I'm not near that info. If I remember anything else I'll let you know.
Take care,
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angelI would bet the 1/4 of a pill was 50 mgs. That makes sense. How much did angel Dolly weigh? Haley is 15.5. I was wondering if 1/4 might be better than 1/2. And I totally understand about confusion with so much going on. I am beyond confused on a good day! ;) Thanks.

[littleone1]

Corky's pills were 50 mg. I was to give him 1/4 to 1/2 a pill twice a day. I had started with 1/2 a pill twice a day. Corky was 18.6 pounds at that time.

[zoesmom]

Kim -
That 25 mg might be a little on the high side for Haley. I recall that Zoe, on 2 x 50 mg, could barely do anything. Stand, walk, stay awake . . . nothin'. She was just completely wiped out from it.

I went back and searched Zoe's salvaged thread from the old CC. website and found these comments, posted by Sharon, re: the tramadol I was giving Zoe:

"Just be careful with the tramadol. I gave Nike the amount that I was suppose to and I about took her to the vets. She was so stoned, she could barely walk, didnt want to eat, just slept all day and was hard to wake her up, had to call her name a few times to get her to wake, scared the crap out of me. She got better later in the day. She is suppose to get 2.5 pills, I usually only give her 1.5, except that day.
the tramadol is a good pain med, good for muscular or tissue pain. If it is more bone related the tramadol doesnt work as well, for that you may need some of the NSAID. I have found that the tramadol itself does not do much for Nike when she is hurting in her legs, but seems the combo of the 2 helps a lot. "

Maybe the effect is making Haley do the moany growling. Now that you mentioned it, Zoe might have done that too - when I had her on the higher dose. Anyway, it should wear off tonight and then in the a.m., maybe just try a quarter or a half of a pill. Sounds like that's what Jo-Ann was using for Lady - who was about the same size as Haley, right? Keep us posted. Gentle hugs to Haley. Sue

[frijole]

Sue, I can't thank you enough for digging that up. Because I was wondering if it was the drugs. I googled but that was a nightmare and I trust Sharon and NIke a whole lot more! ha. I agree - 1/4 pill might be better than 1/2.

I'll keep you posted. She's still lying in her bed but eyes open. Very few growls. Hugs, Kim and Haley

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Kim,

Munchie took Tramadol after his eye surgery and also when he had teeth removed. I'll bet the 1/2 pill is a bit much for Haley. Munch weighed 22 lbs. and was supposed to get that amount but they told me if it was too much to only do 1/4 pill (was the 50 mg. pills). I did have to do the 1/4 pill for him. Even when he had the 1/2 pill he never did the growling thing, so I don't know about that one.

Hope your little gal is feeling better soon. This info on Tramadol indicates weakness and blurred vision as part of the side effects (thinking of her walking into something in your office).


http://www.1800petmeds.com/Tramadol-prod11064.html

What are the possible side effects of tramadol: Get emergency veterinary medical help if your pet develops these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of the face, lips, tongue, or throat. Stop using tramadol and call your veterinarian at once if your pet has any of these serious side effects: seizure; a red, blistering, peeling skin rash; or shallow breathing. Less serious side effects may include: drowsiness, and weakness; vomiting, constipation, loss of appetite; blurred vision; insomnia.

Louise

[Harley PoMMom]

I don't know how much help this will be because this is geared towards humans but here is some info from WebMD about Tramadol.

The following side effects are associated with Tramadol Oral:

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4398-tramadol.aspx?drugid=4398&drugname=tramadol&source=1&pagenumber=6

Tramadol Oral may interact with the following medications

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4398-tramadol.aspx?drugid=4398&drugname=tramadol&source=1&pagenumber=7

Love and hugs,
Lori

[frijole]

I don't know how much help this will be because this is geared towards humans but here is some info from WebMD about Tramadol.

The following side effects are associated with Tramadol Oral:

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4398-tramadol.aspx?drugid=4398&drugname=tramadol&source=1&pagenumber=6

Tramadol Oral may interact with the following medications

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4398-tramadol.aspx?drugid=4398&drugname=tramadol&source=1&pagenumber=7

Love and hugs,
Lori

Thanks... and it mentioned involuntary quivering which is how I would describe her back legs. Similar to the cushings quivers when she was diagnosed however this wasn't when standing it was when lying down. Mentioned vision also... so I am thinking that is what the deal was tonight.

[frijole]

Kim,

Munchie took Tramadol after his eye surgery and also when he had teeth removed. I'll bet the 1/2 pill is a bit much for Haley. Munch weighed 22 lbs. and was supposed to get that amount but they told me if it was too much to only do 1/4 pill (was the 50 mg. pills). I did have to do the 1/4 pill for him. Even when he had the 1/2 pill he never did the growling thing, so I don't know about that one.

Hope your little gal is feeling better soon. This info on Tramadol indicates weakness and blurred vision as part of the side effects (thinking of her walking into something in your office).



LouiseLouise, you and others have me confident that the dosages recommended are typically high. I agree 1/4 pill is a better solution.

I read online that you shouldn't just cease dosing but rather taper it off. Did you do that? I am thinking this is for those that have been on it longer. I will play that by ear based on how she does. Again, many thanks. The experiences of everyone here is unreal.

Hugs, Kim and Haley

[Harley PoMMom]

Tramadol is part of the opiate family and can be addicting if taken for a period of time...thus the weaning period. When Harley's 5 days were up I stopped giving him the 3X a day Tramadol, but if I see he needs it for his arthritis or pancreatitis...he does get one.

[zoesmom]

Seems like there is a mounting body of evidence here - that the doses being prescribed are usually too much for our dogs. Nike was even bigger than Zoe, but even with both being big girls, neither one could tolerate the recommended dosage, it seems. Zoe's current bottle, I noticed, still says to give 2 -3 bid. But there's no way I would give her even two, knowing how that dose knocked her down and out before. I do remember her eyes being glassy and she barely could even raise her head and look at me. One (50mg) is plenty for her.

If Haley's pills are 50 mg, then 1/4 should be just about right. She's about 1/5 the size of Zoe, but I doubt you could cut that little sucker of a pill into anything less than a quarter.:rolleyes: Hope she rests comfortably tonight. Will be looking for an update first thing in the morning! sue

[frijole]

It's interesting that of the people on here who responded - everyone ended up going with less than recommended dosing due to pretty scary symptoms. I read that it is dangerous if they get too much... If this small group is representative then why wouldn't someone have figured this out and changed the dosing recos? weird.

Yes Sue I will report in. She isn't sleeping yet believe it or not... just kind of squinting in her bed. I haven't encouraged her to get up. Too scary.

Thanks again. Kim

[AlisonandMia]

It seems like with a lot of meds (Lysodren and trilostane included) that the bigger dogs often seem to need a smaller mg/kg dose. Happens with people too and it would be why the standard "adult dose" of painkillers is often the same whether you are a small woman and a large man. Maybe Tramadol is similar. With drugs that have to be very precisely dosed (like chemo drugs) often special formulas involving surface area are used to calculate the correct dose rather than simply relying on mg/kg. The larger an animal the smaller its surface area is in relation to its weight.

The other thing is that older people often need considerably lower doses of meds because the older body just doesn't metabolize and excrete stuff as efficiently. A lot of these dogs on Tramadol are in the very elderly category and maybe the standard dosages aren't taking that into account either.

Alison

[AlisonandMia]

From what I can see, in healthy humans the plasma levels and analgesic effect seem to peak about 2 hours after dosing so you are probably past (or at) the worst of the side effects.

Apparently Tramadol doesn't depress the respiratory system anything like morphine - and that is the most worrying side effect with these drugs.

BTW, I saw some info suggesting that people over 75 years be started at the the low end of the dosing range and the dose increased very cautiously.

Alison

[Franklin'sMum]

Kim,
Thoughts, prayers and calming hugs from my home to yours. Hoping Haley is over the worst of the Tramadol, and that her fall didn't cause any damage.

Jane and Franklin xx
________
Vaporizer affiliate programs (http://vaporizeraffiliateprogram.com)

[frijole]

Hi all...good points re aging and dosing.

I am up at this ungodly hour thanks to my dog Annie waking me up. Haley has been up and quite busy going poo. Indoors. Bit of a mess.

I took her outside and she is pacing back and forth now. I am observing. I read that tramadol shouldn't be mixed with depressants so am thinking melatonin wouldn't be a good idea. Am hoping she decides to go back to bed...

Kim

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I'm sorry that Haley had an accident in the house.

Does the quivering in her legs seem better this morning? Was it easier for her to get up? Does it seem like she can see a little better? I hope so. I hope she has shown some improvement.

I would also be iffy about giving her Melatonin at this time. Hopefully she will go back to bed so you can get more sleep.

Continued good thoughts and prayers.

[frijole]

We were up for an hour between 2:30 and 3:30. She was restless. Thank God no more accidents. She slept in big time. I let her because I don't know when she fell asleep. I assisted in getting her out of the bed - don't know if it was needed or not.

She ate all her food (go figure) and that included the 1/4 tramadol i put in it. She is walking around ... a little slouched but nothing like last night. Very alert and eye sight is back to normal.

Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Kim,

I am so happy to read that Haley is feeling better! :)

Sending tons of healing and positive energy your way.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[labblab]

Kim, I'm just coming in on the tail-end of your awful episode with Haley, and have absolutely no knowledge to offer about Tramadol. But I'm sure hoping that things go much better for you girls today!!!!!!

Healing (((hugs))) from my house to yours,
Marianne

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

I read online that you shouldn't just cease dosing but rather taper it off. Did you do that? I am thinking this is for those that have been on it longer. I will play that by ear based on how she does. Again, many thanks. The experiences of everyone here is unreal.


Kim,

Munch was on it for 7 days and then they had me stop so I believe you are correct in that the tapering thing is for pups who have been on it longer. Glad Haley was finally able to get some sleep. Isn't that something that a drug to help w/pain and causes one to be groggy can also cause insomnia! I think it was Alison that mentioned age in humans. Meds can have more of an impact on senior humans so why not senior pups. Besides that....as far as dosing goes with both humans and dogs, everybody does not necessarily fall into that "average percentile". What's fine for one may not be fine for another. Hope the 1/4 pill will relieve Haley's discomfort without further gllitches!

Louise

[Carol G]

Kim,

I hope Haley continues to feel better.

I think the dosage may depend on the dog -- while I don't have the paperwork handy, I am fairly sure McGill was on 50 mg three times a day (started at 2 times a day) and he was about 34 lbs. He didn't have any problems with it.

McGill was on Melatonin as he was Atypical and the IM never said anything about not mixing the two. I did read that SAM-e possibly should not be taken with Tramadol and asked the IM about it but I never saw anything about Melatonin & Tramadol.

You are in my thoughts.

Carol & Atty Cat

[frijole]

Carol, Thanks! Because she does get SAME with her glucosamine.. I will need to check into that.

She is back in her bed resting after the pacing. Kim

[zoesmom]

Kim - Sorry about your night and the pooping incident. But it sounds like Haley's doing a little better today :D. I also remember seeing the caution about mixing tram and sam-e. Zoe takes melatonin and tram together and has for some time. Never thought about it, but apparently no problemms.. We get Zo's tramadol (the human version) from Walgreen's and it has the usual cautions on the label - no alcohol ;), may cause dizziness and a separate added warning label which says too much can cause serious breathing problems. (the opiate effect, I guess.)

So please, don't be pourin' Haley any margaritas! How's she doing today on the 1/4 pill. Any more suspicions on an injury or are you thinking it was most likely the tram? Sue

[frijole]

Sue, Darn it - guess I'll have to drink Haley's daily martini. ha.

She is walking around so much I think she might wear out the carpet. I think I read that that is a sign of pain or stress? Walking much more upright today.

It has been more than 2 hrs since her dosing (per Alison that is when it is at its prime) and so far so good. Vision is normal... its just the pacing.

So... it appears that the symptoms from the tramadol were more severe and scary than the original leg injury that caused me to give it to her. lol. She is to the point though that she might need the tramadol regularly. She gets the normal fish oil, glucosamine, milk thistle and adequan shots.

We finally got a break in the weather and the snow melted. We had ice real bad all last week and the pavers I put out are dangerous as can be. I have to let her out the side door of the garage (not fenced in) as it is much safer. I cannot carry her down the patio steps as it has been too icy for me as well.

They are calling for another storm tonight and I am praying they are wrong. She could use the break and so could I. :)

Thanks again for digging up that quote from Sharon. If she was scared by it I don't feel quite so foolish. :o

Kim

[littleone1]

I'm glad to hear that Haley is doing better. I hope she continues to improve.

[Carol G]

Kim,

On the SAM-e, at the time I asked (which was probably 9 months to a year ago), the IM said that it wasn't a concern. The possibility of interaction was theoretical. There were no documented cases with animals and the few cases with humans were not well documented. I would still ask if I were you but I wouldn't worry about it much.

Hope thing are going better. I have to say that the Tramadol did help McGill a lot with his arthritis.

Carol & Atty Cat

[Harley PoMMom]

I remembered we had this discussion in Leslie's Thread, this is why I stopped giving Harley the denamarin when he was taking the Tramadol:


Apparently SAM-E and Tramadol can increase serotonin in the brain, and in humans has caused Serotonin Syndrome.

When Pallie was on Denamarin (which is 1/2 SAM-E) and Tramadol in December 08/January 09 for her liver problem, I asked my vet about it. He said that he has never encountered any problems with the two and hasn't read any documented cases, but he said it is theoretically possible for this Serotonin Syndrome in dogs. I watched Pallie carefully during the time she was on both, and we never had a problem. I still watched.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/serotonin-syndrome/DS00860

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-786-SAMe.aspx?activeIngredientId=786&activeIngredientName=SAMe&source=3
Tramadol (Ultram) interacts with SAMe

Tramadol (Ultram) can affect a chemical in the brain called serotonin. SAMe can also affect serotonin. Taking SAMe along with tramadol (Ultram) might cause too much serotonin in the brain and side effects including confusion, shivering, stiff muscles, and other side effects.


Hi Leslie :D



Re: the Tramadol & SAM-e...didn't know this until you mentioned it...did some research and found this:

"Tramadol may not be compatible with SAMe, a liver and joint support nutriceutical. Until further studies are performed, these two treatments should not be used together."

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html


Love and hugs.
Lori

Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

Just catching up on Haley's thread this morning and wanted to share my personal experiences with Tramadol in humans - me! :o

Tramadol is the same thing as Ultram, a human pain med...something I learned the hard way recently. Ultram is a pain med that I simply cannot tolerate - it makes me extremely dizzy, confused, restless and nauseous to the extreme, I will end up vomiting violently with one 50mg tablet. Yet I can take mega doses of other pain meds from much stronger sources than Ultram with no side effects at all. Something in Ultram/Tramadol makes me very, very ill...and does nothing for my pain.

After this experience in myself recently and realizing they are the same med, I don't think I will use Tramadol for my pups anymore. If it were to make them feel like it does me, I just can't see it would have any benefit that outweighs the side-effects. There are other pain meds available and we will try one of them if the need arises.

I'm glad Haley is feeling better and I pray it continues!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[bgdavis]

Kim,

Just wanted you to know that Crissy took Tramadol daily for the last two years of her life. She weighed around 60 pounds when it was started and took a single 50mg. daily dose. Then the next year, she took 2 a day and weighed around 55 lbs.

She had no ill affects from it. She also had daily doses of Metacam and had Adequan injections every 3 weeks for her severe rear leg problems.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

[frijole]

I finally added Haleys 16th birthday photos in her album!! :D

Didn't know what to get her since she has 2000 stuff animals and doesn't play with them any more so she got a cuddly bed, blankie and pink fleece coat with bling.

Couldn't figure out how to include a picture in this post so you'll have to go check out the album. I put a photo of Jessie in there as well (our newly dx-ed diabetic schnauzer).

[AlisonandMia]

Here's the pic:D: (Please note: If you are not logged on you will probably not be able to see the picture.)

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=1444

[frijole]

Thanks Alison! Haley appreciates it too. :)

[Casey's Mom]

Sweet 16!! Love the pic and thanks Alison for getting the link. I can never figure out how to do that either!

What a great success story for you and Haley - congratulations and a big hug from me!!

Love and hugs,

[gpgscott]

Hello Haley,

the bling suits you.

Scott

[Harley PoMMom]

I definitely agree with Scott, Haley, you look so beautiful in your pink fleece.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

What sweet photos! Haley really, really looks good, Kim. And oh-so-oo-la-la in her pink and bling! :D

You are a wonderful mom with beautiful girls!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[labblab]

Love the photos, Kim!!!! :p :p :p

Marianne

[jrepac]

How cute...god bless her!:p

[frijole]

Thanks. She has progressively lost weight over the last couple years. She is less than 15 lbs now. She doesn't tolerate any movement or touching on her face. It is her eyesite I think. Any movement towards her makes her flinch a great deal. It is hard to groom her but we do our best. My groomer deserves an award ... though not the best cut anymore... I don't know how she manages it. It is a long process and she pets her for hours to get it done.

Now that it has warmed up she seems sprier. It was such an awful winter. My heart bled for her. She is back to smiling which is so nice to see.

[frijole]

I noticed Haley licking her urethra this am. On inspection there is blood. Taking her in this a.m.

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Kim,

Keeping you and sweet Haley in my thoughts and prayers. My wild guess here is a UTI? Poor Haley :( Please let us know, as soon as you're able, how Haley is doing. Sending big hugs and well wishes your way.

Love and more hugs,
Lori

[sunimist]

Thoughts and prayers for sweet Haley. Hoping for a UTI that can be quickly controlled.

Love and (((HUGS)))

Shelba and Suni

[frijole]

He did urinanalysis and she does have a UTI. Gave her an antibiotic shot and some Baytril. If that doesn't work I might try that Tylan powder that everyone raves about. We sell it where I work for livestock and I had no idea till reading here how useful this stuff is. Don't know much about it. But if it worked for Sue's Zoe after all the stuff she tried I am sure willing to give it a shot.

Haley had quite the morning and she is sleeping now. Took her and Annie both in. Annie had her ACTH to check her cortisol. Fingers crossed there too.

[Harley PoMMom]

Keeping everything crossed here that the meds get rid of that nasty UTI...those darn UTI! :mad::mad:

Everything crossed here for Annie's ACTH stim results!! ;):)

Give Haley and Annie gentle hugs from Harley and me...Oh they are sooo cute!!

Love and hugs,
Lori

[gpgscott]

Kim,

I wish I could help.

I am thinking and praying for you and Annie.

Scott

[frijole]

Haley has never really had UTIs. She had a yeast type surface infection that was a beast but never an internal infection so this is new to me. She slept all afternoon after that shot. She is chowing now though. I woke her to eat.

Annie decided to eat all of her kibble this time.

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

I'm hoping that everything improves. Corky was on Baytril when he had 2 UTIs at the same time. One of the UTIs was very difficult to treat, but Baytril really cleared it up.

Sending positive thoughts and prayers that everything goes well.

[frijole]

Thanks Terri.

Wanted to share that today when we were waiting at the vets office - Haley who isn't nearly as cuddly as she used to be just laid there and fell asleep in my arms. She woke up and licked my face just like she used to do all the time. I consider it an early Mother's Day gift. It brought back so many memories of when she and I were both young. ;)

Enjoy every moment and every little detail. Kim

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

What a wonderful thought.

It's so good to hear that Haley was giving you much deserved kisses, as I call our precious ones' licks. This was indeed an early mother's day gift.

I hope everything went well and there were positive results.

[BestBuddy]

Hi Kim.

Those special little butterfly kisses are oh so sweet aren't they.:cool:

Jenny

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Kim,

What a sweet gift! A wonderful Mother's Day present or Any Day present!

Each time our eyes meet, those rare times of a hint of playfulness, the feel of that tiny warm tongue touching us, watching the rise and fall of their breaths as they sleep, the wag of the tail and wiggle of the butt, every moment is so very precious with our geriatric babies.

Big hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[frijole]

Any Baytril users out there? I am starting to get concerned because Haley has been in bed pretty much since getting her shot yesterday and she's now had 2 Baytril doses. This is not normal. She is usually walking all over the place. Looks like I am going to have to wake her up for food again tonight.

[Harley PoMMom]

I am talking to Terri, Corky's mom, and she said that when Corky was on the Baytril he didn't sleep all the time.

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

As Lori said, Corky did not sleep all of the time when he was taking Baytril. He was only taking one pill a day with food. It was a very large pill. He had to take it for 21 days. It's been over a year now, and I can't remember what dosage he was taking. He didn't have any problems with it. I was just reading on the web about the side effects, and that was not mentioned as one of them. What kind of shot did Haley have? It might be possible that the dosage is too high. In my personal opinion, I would call your vet before you give Haley another dose.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. Please let us know what your vet says.

[lulusmom]

Kim,

Just wanted to let you know that drowsiness is one of the side effects listed for Baytril. I've given it to a few of my dogs and didn't notice any more lethargy than usual but they are a bunch of couch potatoes.

[frijole]

After I posted I went and picked her up - took her outside to go potty and she stayed up after that. The injection was an antibiotic and the bill doesn't indicate what kind.

Thanks guys - I just read diarrhea and vomiting as side effects. I haven't had the nerve to give her lysodren which was due yesterday. Too much going on.

She is chowing away at her food right now. I'll keep a close eye on her. Good news is I haven't seen any more blood.

[littleone1]

I'm glad she's doing better, Kim.

I just checked Corky's records. He was taking 68mg once a day.

I hope she'll be back to her normal self now.

[frijole]

Haley is taking 22.7 mg pill twice a day so 45.4 mgs. Haley is 6.8 kgs so I calculated she's at 6.6 mgs/kg dosing. The range I read was 5 to 20 mgs/kg so it isn't a high dosage. (assumes I did the math right!):)

[littleone1]

I get lost with kg!:D Corky was taking just about 3mg per pound, because at that time he weighed almost 24 lbs. This was when he was first diagnosed with Cushings, and his weight was up. It doesn't sound like the dosage is too high.

[frijole]

I get lost with kg!:D Corky was taking just about 3mg per pound, because at that time he weighed almost 24 lbs. This was when he was first diagnosed with Cushings, and his weight was up. It doesn't sound like the dosage is too high.:D Haley is just under 15 lbs so she too is at 3 mgs per pound. LOL

[frijole]

Haley has been on the Baytril for her UTI for almost a week (tomorrow nt) and she just vomited. This is a side effect I read about. She also got sick a few nights ago but I attributed that to her lysodren.

I just gave her 1/4 of a pepcid AC. I haven't had to give her that since loading her 4 yrs ago so am curious about how much and how often. She is around 15 lbs (probably 14.5).

She currently takes: proin, thyroxine, tramadol & baytril daily.

Thanks
Kim

[AlisonandMia]

Just been looking through some posts (searched for "pepcid") and Corky gets 1/2 a tablet whenever he has aspirin (dose recommended by IMS) and Gatsby gets 10mg 2x a day. Corky is around 20lbs.

Baytril made Mia feel a bit yukky (probably very yukky as she was incredibly stoic) and she was very fussy food wise while on it. She seemed to feel queasier and queasier the longer she was on it, too. She recovered very rapidly once her last dose was out of her system - you could really see the difference. How much longer does Hayley have to go on it?

Alison

[frijole]

She has another week on it. I hadn't noticed anything until this evening when holding her the tummy was a turning. I should have proactively given her the pepcid ac but I just didn't think of it.

I will calculate how much tomorrow (oops today) when I am more awake. Am going to try to go get some sleep. Thanks for being there Alison!

ps Did you give lysodren at the same time? I waited til she had gone a couple days to resume lysodren but like I said she vomited later that night. Tomorrow would be her normal day for the next dosing of lysodren. Thanks

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

Harley gets 1/2 a tablet (5mg) of Pepcid AC before his Lysodren and he also gets Pepcid the morning after his Lysodren. He was having those infrequent bouts of vomiting that his vet and I, finally after a few weeks, attributed to his tummy being a little too sensitive to the Lysodren. The morning after Pepcid has stopped the vomiting completely. Harley weighs 22.6lbs.

Hope the Pepcid does the trick.

Found this dosage info for Famotidine (Pepcid®)


Dosing Information


The typical dose administered is 0.25 to 0.5 mg per pound (0.5 to 1.0 mg/kg) every 12 to 24 hours.
http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/famotidine-pepcid/page1.aspx

So, at 15#, and according to this article, Haley can have between 3.75mg to 7.5mg of Pepcid every 12 hours.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[AlisonandMia]

ps Did you give lysodren at the same time? I waited til she had gone a couple days to resume lysodren but like I said she vomited later that night. Tomorrow would be her normal day for the next dosing of lysodren. Thanks

Just saw your PS: I would have - in the time she was on the Baytril she would have had 4 doses of Lysodren at least. If she hadn't she would have pretty much fully unloaded in that time! She was on the Baytril for an ear infection, BTW. I never noticed the Lysodren having any additional effect on her stomach during that time - but then again I never did notice it affecting her in that way, even during loading. She seemed to have a pretty tough stomach all her life. The only thing that ever upset her remotely was the Baytril - and she didn't vomit with that, just got picky re food and was maybe a bit quieter than usual.

Hope the Pepcid keeps things tolerably settled over the next week. Maybe you will need to switch antibiotics?


Alison

[frijole]

Rough night between getting up for the vomit and then Annie needed out a couple times... Working with a groggy mind this a.m.

OK the PAC pills I have are 20 mgs and not 10mg. I gaver her 1/3 of one which = 7 mgs. Whew I guessed right.

Alison - you may be right regarding switching meds. I would like to hear from Tylan users. (Sue?!!) I will read up on it more a bit later but this is that livestock powder (non rx) that people were raving about for treating upset stomachs, urinary tract infections etc.

Gotta run - house is disaster and my nephew is coming over this evening for an overnight... :eek: Kim

[zoesmom]

Hi Kim -

Sorry that Haley's got that upset tum. Hope the pepcid AC does the trick. Zo often took baytril for her uti's. For a dog who had a verrry sensitive tum, I don't recall the baytril ever having that effect on her. Some of the other a/b's made her sick - but not the baytril for some reason. But each dog is different. The last few years she also took simplicef quite often for her uti's. Did they do a C & S Haley's urine sample, so you could switch if need be??

Just to clarify, I never used tylan to treat Zo's uti's. So I'm not sure if it would be effective for tromping a full-blown infection. I felt it's effect was more 'preventative.' In fact, when she was on a/b's of any kind and for whatever reasons, I'd stop the tylan until the other a/b was finished.

But she DID only have one or two uti's after we put her on the tylan (originally, we started using it for SIBO . . . i.e. her soft stools and horrendous gas.) That first uti cropped up less than a month into the tylan so it had probably been brewing before the tylan. The second one was a very mild one, by Zoe standards (that is, her bacteria count was not all that high. I wanna say 10k when usually it was many times that amt.) And then that was it. She never had any more uti's in the last 20 mos. or so of her life.

The connection wasn't at first obvious. But her drinking dropped way off immediately - like overnight from her first dose of tylan. (That ws the first + I noticed.) Then, as time went by, I realized she wasn't getting uti's every few weeks as she'd done in the past - well, her whole life really. So I have to think it was the tylan. The mechanics of it, I have no explanation for.

I've wondered if maybe she'd always had nephrogenic DI (the kind that doesn't respond to the med) and that the tylan had some sort of positive effect on her urinary system, which then reduced her PU, which in turn lowered her PD, which in turn stopped the uti's (maybe because her urine was no longer so dilute.) I'd have to check if it was tested, but based on her urine color (which became light yellow when previously always clear), I suspect that her USG went up (it had been in the 1.004 - 1.012 range for most of her life). So that's my theory.

If only we'd stumbled on the tylan earlier. There were years when Zo would have 6 or more uti's. When I think of all the $$$$ we dropped on a/b's throughout her life (not to mention the cysto's and C & S's) - compared to that cheap 100 gm jar of tylan - which lasted us about 6-8 mos. . . .well, :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: !!! I really am so curious to know if it would have that same effect on other dogs (with the uti's?) The only thing I didn't like about it was having to fill the capsules myself. But all in all, it was so worth it. But as I said, I'm just not sure that tylan would have the desired effect on an 'active' uti. Sue

[sunimist]

Hi Kim,

We tried Baytril for Misty but it made her feel yucky too, so we went to something else. As a matter of fact she took so much medicine that I just don't remember right off what worked best for her, but she always had tummy problems.

She was also on Pepcid AC for years (30 minutes before meals), even after she quit taking Lysodren because she had lots of tummy rolls too. She weighed anywhere from 9 to 11 pounds and I gave her 1/4 of a 10mg tab. As a break from Pepcid we also used Cerenia which is specifically for dogs. If I remember right, it's a 4 day treatment. Motion sickness is what it was designed for but it also helped her with the tummy upsets and rumblings due to meds.

Then we discovered Zofran (Ondansetron) which worked wonderfully for her with few side effects. Might be something you want to ask your vet about.

Zofran
http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/ondansetron-zofran/page1.aspx

Hope Haley is feeling much better soon

Love and (((hugs)))

Shelba and Suni

[frijole]

This place has a wealth of information :) especially about old dogs. lol

I waited to give Haley her next pepcid ac since the first one was at midnight.... I needed to move the schedule to a manageable one every 12 hrs. So far so good. Gave her a bath... poor thing was plenty mad at me.

Thanks for all the alternatives. I'm writing all of this down. Sue you mentioned a test with some letters in it. Sorry but this is my first UTI so I don't know what that is. I brought in urine but it was not from first thing in the morning because I discovered blood on her AFTER she had already gone out.

Have an antsy 5 yr old sitting here waiting to leave for a bit... better get going. Thanks! Kim

[littleone1]

Hi Kim,

Corky is now taking 1/2 a tablet of Pepcid AC every day now, to make sure his stomach doesn't get upset with the Trilo.

I hope that Haley soon feels better.

[sunimist]

Kim, Misty's first UTI peeing blood scared me to death! I just knew she was dying, but a quick call to the vet assured me it would be OK.
She called me in a script for antibiotics and it cleared up immediately.
As a precaution she was checked later for stones, which I was told would also cause bleeding, but that was negative. This was my first experience with a severe UTI and I can tell you it can be frightening first time around!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Kim,

The C & S Sue mentioned, I believe, is an urine culture and sensitivity tests.


The treatment for canine UTI differs depending on the number of times it is diagnosed in an animal. Generally a broad-spectrum antibiotic is effective in killing the infection when treating an isolated case or one episode of UTI. In occasional cases, such as in animals with compromised health or certain types of dogs, recurrent infections may need a two-stage approach. The first part is a urine culture coupled with sensitivity tests to identify the bacteria and the suitable antibiotic.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Canine-UTI----Urine-Culture,-Sensitivity-Tests-and-Treatment&id=1733902

Love and hugs,
Lori

[zoesmom]

Yeh, "certain types of dogs" - that was my Zo! She had so many uti's that the vets would not treat her without first doing a cystocentesis and then the culture and sensitivity to make sure we were putting her on the 'right' antibiotic. Her samples almost always grew e-coli. Baytril often worked and in her later years, she took simplicef alot. Really .... this is Haley's first uti???? 'Wow' is all I can say!!!!!! Hoping the pepcid works and that she can continue on the baytril and start feeling better soon. They can't tell us but I know that Zo felt pretty puny, each time she'd get a uti. Sue

[AlisonandMia]

I think Jenny had Buddy on long-term amoxicillin (sp?) for recurrent UTI's. Amoxicillin is one of the antibiotics that is least likely to cause GI upset - although it can, especially if an individual is sensitive to that type of thing.

Hopefully this UTI of Haley's is a one-off thing.

Alison

[frijole]

Haley had bladder stones when she was about 8 and had to have them surgically removed. There was lots of bleeding with that. I just remember the bill was four figures. ha.

I noticed a bit more blood on her this afternoon. Not dripping around the place though like she did w/stones. And yes she did have a culture done which is how they dx-ed the bacteria.

Just got home from taking the little guy to the toy store (he is very happy) and Haley has pretty runny poop. Not true diarrhea but close. And I have no pumpkin in this house! :eek: Gonna go read the package of Pepcid to see if it helps that or not... never used it myself.

[AlisonandMia]

UTI's and bladder irritation generally can definitely irritate the bowel too - speaking from personal (all too personal!:eek::o) experience here. Pally had a similar problem with a UTI, if I remember rightly.

Probably the antibiotic though....

Alison

[frijole]

Agreed - runs and vomiting are both "possible" side effects. Would love it if we could make it thru the week and then check to see how she is... but we shall see. Doesn't look like the pepcid is going to help with the runs. Trying not to have to run out again tonight since I have company... any other home made remedies for diarrhea? :D

[AlisonandMia]

Banana? White rice? Banana and white rice? (That's one recommended for toddlers particularly). Sweet potato seems to be good too.

Looks like you may be needing to switch antibiotics - apart from the unpleasantness, it won't necessarily do a lot of good if it doesn't stay "in" long enough to get an optimal dose.

Alison

[Harley PoMMom]

Plain, unsweetened applesauce, whole wheat toast or just any kind of toast.

Sending big hugs and healing thoughts your way.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[frijole]

I have bananas! Just mashed part of one up real good and set it by her. She likes them but not real interested right now. Trust me, by morning it will all be gone. Thanks.

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

How's Haley doing with her nanners? If it were me, I'd be passing on the wheat toast. Some pups are sensitive to wheat and it can cause them to have diarrhea. Maybe Haley wouldn't be but she sure doesn't need a double whammy!

Hope Haley is feeling better soon. Tell that old "Percy" to scram.

Louise

[frijole]

Fingers crossed no more vomit or diarrhea that I have seen.

I'm sticking to nanas for now. Thanks. Kim

[sunimist]

Yea for Haley! Get well sweet girl. I love you.

Big, bigger and biggest ((((HUGS)))) to you both!

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

No more "V or D"...that's good news. Sounds like things are turning around for your little girl. Whoopie!!!!!!!!

Louise

[frijole]

It is with the heaviest heart that I share with you that I freed my little angel from her pain about an hour ago. She was 16 and 5 mos young.

I woke up and Haley was walking in circles, head lowered. She was frail and I just could not put her through any more. I am heartbroken beyond words. Haley was the child I never had - the longest relationship I have had and there is a big hole in my heart right now.

I called her my Pooh Bear because she was the cuddliest thing. She slept all curled up next to me and was a kisser. I'll share more stories when I have more strength.

Thank you to all of you that helped Haley and I thru our journey with cushing's disease and became family over the last four years. She lived a long happy life. I will miss her so.

Kim

[forscooter]

Kim...I was sitting at my email when this came through. My heart broke...and I can't even put words together right now to say to you. You were such a huge part of my own Cushing's journey, and so many of my Friday nights here on the forum...and I feel your pain as you always helped carry mine.

I'm too upset myself to write more right now but I did want to come and at least let you know that I am so very sorry...and so very much with you...

You were, are, and always will be a huge inspiration to anyone lucky enough to have come across your life with your babies...

Godspeed sweet Haley and much peace to your mom...

All my love and tons of hugs, Kim....Beth

[littleone1]

KIm, I am so terribly sorry to hear this news. I'm crying right along with you. I totally understand what you are saying about the child you never had. Corky is my baby that I never had.

I know this is a very difficult time for you, but Haley is now free to enjoy her life once more. She is no longer in pain and suffering. You made the best decision for her.

I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers through this very difficult time. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

God speed sweet Haley.

Sending a very special hug to you.

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Kim,

My dear friend, I am so, so sorry...my heart is just breaking for you...

You are the best mommy and loved her deeply...the decision to let them go is so very hard, and yet, it is the most loving gift we can give to them when they are suffering. I am so, so sorry.

Peace Sweet Haley, you will be missed very, very much.

With Heartfelt Sympathy,
Lori