Hi, looking for some help. (Bailey) 8 y/o Cocker Spaniel - Vetoryl

[clarelou]

Hi, my name is Clare and I am the proud mother of two 8 year old cocker spaniel brothers , Bailey and Ollie.

Bailey has recently been diagnosed as having Cushings after we noticed weight gain, never ending thirst and appetite and a general overall aging of his coat etc.

He has been on Vetoryl and it seems to have helped but recently we noticed that he started to shake now and then. This went on for a couple of weeks so we decided to take him to the vet to have his tests done again thinking that perhaps is dosage was too high.

The vet then diagnosed Pancreatitis and gave him an anti-inflamatory injection and a course of Noroclav. Over the past few days we have noticed that the shakes are still there and he seems to be in pain. After consulting the vet again, he now has a course of Rimadyl.

We cant help thinking that there must be a more natural way to treat this and would love to hear from anyone going through similar experience or who has any information regarding homeopathic treatments.

Thanks

Clare

[frijole]

Clare,

Welcome and glad that you found us! We understand your frustration... that's how most of us found this site. ;) If you could help us out - please give us a little more information such as Bailey's weight, the dosage he is on, if it has changed tell us that too.

It sometimes does require some experimenting to get the dosage right. Here is a link to some information on trilostane/vetoryl that might be helpful:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222

Most of us started out in search of a homeopathic cure but unfortuneately there isn't one. The reason is that cushings is caused by overproduction of cortisol and the goal is to decrease the production. Herbs don't do that. Treated your dog can live a very long and normal life. Untreated cushings dogs can develop heart problems, blindness, diabetes, liver failure to name a few.

I treat with lysodren so I can't help you with the specific of vetoryl but others will chime in shortly I am sure. Best of luck and hugs to Bailey.

Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Clare,

Welcome to you and Bailey! and Ollie, too! :)

One thing really concerns me here and that is the pancreatitis. This condition can be fatal and cush pups are prone to it. The shaking could be related to the Trilo, but it could also be pain related. The pain in the belly could easily be his pancreas still inflamed. Were you told to change his diet in any way? That is critical when dealing with pancreatitis. I don't know what Noroclav is, but the usual way of approaching treatment in the US is to withhold all food and keep water to a minimum until the inflammation has gone down, then usually a low fat diet is recommended. I know things are handled differently in other areas of the world. ;) But I am very worried about Bailey. :( If he begins to vomit, get him to an ER asap. Otherwise, get him to your vet as soon as possible.

Another thing that concerns me is the Rimadyl. This is an NSAID and NSAIDs are not usually recommended for cush pup. There are other meds available that work just as well if not better for pain, but I don't think this is a pain that should be masked with meds. The cause needs to be found.

Our Trilo moms and dads will be along soon to offer their experiences and suggestions.

I am glad you found us and look forward to learning more soon.
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

PS. Having dealt with pancreatitis with my Squirt, I have some links to give you about it. Hope they help.

Canine Pancreatitis*
Mar Vista*
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_pancreatitis.html

Texas A&M – Gastrointestinal Laboratories
http://www.cvm.tamu.edu/gilab/research/Pancreatitis.shtml

University of Georgia
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/west/index.php

Veterinary Partner
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2214&S=1&SourceID=42

World Small Animal Veterinary Association
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2007&PID=18128&O=Generic

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=23846&O=Generic

IDEXX Laboratories
http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/laboratory/speccpl/diagnosticupdate2.jsp

Judith Stock (article appeared in Tufts University Your Dog)
http://www.judithstock.com/Speaking_of_Animals/Pancreatitis_in_Dogs/pancreatitis_in_dogs.html

VetCentric
https://www.vetcentric.com/reference/encycEntry.cfm?ENTRY=23&COLLECTION=EncycIllness&MODE=full

Swift Water Farms
http://www.swiftwaterfarms.com/swiftwater/p21Pancreatitis.htm

[forscooter]

Hi Clare,

I too am concerned that perhaps the pancreatitis was never treated fully or until Bailey was completely over it. I looked at the Noroclav quickly and see that it is an antibiotic. But I am wondering about the low-fat diet also...this is something Bailey should be on if not.

I am not a fan of Rimadyl, for other reasons, but I do use Metacam which is an NSAID for pain. My Bailey has a very sensitive stomach on top of the Cushing's but in spite of both, I haven't had a problem as long as I give it to him on a full stomach. But I am concerned about using an NSAID on an already upset system with something like pancreatitis.

I can't help much with the Vetoryl dosing bc I too use Lysodren. I do know that many Cushparents using it find it best to wait 30 days after starting dosing before making any dose adjustments. It seems the numbers can change during that time. I am sure they will be along to comment on this though.

I am hoping things will get better soon for Bailey and I am glad you found this site. The people here have gotten me through quite a bit with both my boys!

Beth, Bailey and always Scooter

[frijole]

Clare,

I had another thought and wanted to get back to you. I gave you information on vetoryl but you also mentioned your dog has pancreatitis.

Oftentimes pancreatitus is the first sign of diabetes. My aunts dog just had it and they found out she is diabetic. Diabetes has some of the same symptoms as cushings and I am wondering if perhaps you might be dealing with diabetes? I just wanted to mention this.

Can you share the exact name of the test that was done to diagnose the cushings? Was there one or were there a series of tests done? The more information you can provide the better.

Sorry to throw yet another possibility out there but I felt I should mention it. Please share as much as you can about Bailey and his health history. Thanks!

Kim

[Rusty's Mom]

Clare,

There are lots of fur parents on this site who have sooo much knowledge. I'm sure you will find your answers or links to your answers from the members.

I was just on here a short time before my cocker passed. Therefore, I'm not as knowledgeable as the others. He, however, was also on trilo treatment, and I was beginning to learn all the nuances of that.

If your Bailey is having multiple problems, you might consider having him checked out by a specialist.

I'll be sending positive thoughts your way.

MJ

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Clare,
Welcome from me too. It sounds like you have alot going on with Bailey at the minute as well as the Cushings. I too am not a fan of Rimadyl, it caused my dog, Spicey to have an upset stomach and I have known it affect other dogs too.

Do you have the ACTH and other test results from your vet? I know they are harder to get hold off here in the UK but there are alot here who can give you alot of information from them. Spicey was on Vetoryl for 18 months and never had any problems but she has been
off it for 6 months now because her test numbers went too low even though she didn't have any symptoms of being low.

Hope you see some improvements in Bailey soon.

Linda and Spicey

[clarelou]

Hi everybody, just wanted to say thanks for all of your replies and concerns, much appreciated.

A wee update..

I was at the vets with Bailey yesterday for a check up appointment after being on his antibiotics for a week.

He has eaten two mouthfuls of food since tuesday which he threw up a couple of hours later and was finding it hard to take any water either so i was getting increasingly worried, he woke me up at 530am yesterday morning as he was obviously distressed so i gave him his Rimadyl and he went outside and then came back in and had a little bit of water and went straight back up to bed.

So at the vets i explained how he has been over the past couple of days and the vet checked him all over again and said that yes he was dehydrated but he wasn't sure why he wasn't eating or drinking, i couldn't stress any more to him how concerned i was and that something needed to be done as i know my dog and i know there is something far wrong!!!! He then weighed him and upon realising that he had lost over a kilo and a half he became a bit more concerned and asked a few more questions, so he has been kept in overnight for observation and was put on IV fluids and they have run some tests which show that it is definitely pancreatitis, some other tests are being done today as he is a bit perkier but he is still shaking when he breathes in so they are going to hopefully get to the bottom of it today.

I am going to the vets this afternoon to see him as they want to keep him overnight again so i will see the vet then and i might get some of the test results too.

We have hardly slept, his brother is lost without him, even the cat is looking for him and they can't be bothered with each other usually.

Does anybody elses dog suffer from pancreatitis like this and do you have any advice on treatment or diet?

Thanks again to all of you, i am so glad that i found this site and that i am not alone in my need for help.

Thanks
Clare, Ollie and Lola
xxx

[StarDeb55]

Clare, I don't have personal experience with pancreatitis, but I do know the things that need to be done. First of all, Bailey needs to be on a high protein, low fat diet. Too much fat encourages the pancreas to act up. When it comes to treatment, your vet is spot on. All food & water needs to be witheld & the pup is supported by IV fluid. This give the pancreas a chance to rest & heal. While the pancreas is inflamed, any time the pup drinks or eat, the pancreas simply pumps out more of the enzymes it makes to help with digestion, just increasing the inflammation. It sounds like Bailey is in very good hands, but he will probably be at the vets for several days.

debbie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Clare,

My Squirt had a bout with pancreatitis after surgery this past Sept. Once I did some research (see previous post and links) and realized how incredibly important diet is in managing pancreatitis, I started home cooking with the goal of removing as much fat from her diet as I could. And I went over-board with it taking too much fat out! :eek: Fats are needed for normal biological functioning, so completely removing them was a big mistake on my part. :(:o

As I started researching nutrition and how to home cook correctly, I started looking for someone who could design a diet for Squirt. I went to a holistic nutritionist locally first and the diet she gave me was just awful, tho I didn't know it at the time. I did have some serious questions about it and when I asked the doc, she didn't bother to answer my questions, so my search continued.

I found some sites on canine nutrition and joined quite a few. As I read on each site, I settled on two that I felt good about. One is Monica Segal's site at:

Monica Segal
http://www.monicasegal.com/

Monica’s discussion group
http://www.doggiedietician.com/aboutus/discussions.php

And another at:

Catherine Lane
http://www.thepossiblecanine.com/

Cat’s discussion group
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ThePossibleCanine-Nutrition/

Both these ladies will design a diet for your baby but their sites offer lots of information and support, plus the groups will help you design a diet on your own free. I think you will learn alot from these folks. And there are other groups, but these are the ones I liked best. You may find another fits you better.

I am so glad that your vet kept Bailey! I was really concerned about his pancreas and am glad to know they are on top of it now. :):):)

Keep up the good work and do keep in touch!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[frijole]

Glad you updated us. As I mentioned my aunt's schnauzer just went thru this and was admitted to the hospital and put on IVs for five days. Obviously the length of stay is dependent upon how severe the pancreatitus is. If you haven't read up on it - you need to be careful of the diet moving forward because dogs that have had it tend to get it frequently. Let us know how it goes!

Kim

[clarelou]

Hello again everybody, life has been a rollercoaster with Bailey for the past few weeks and we have finally found out what is wrong with him! He was misdiagnosed as having pancreatitis for a few weeks now as we ended up back at the vets at the start of this week again and he was kept in and put on a drip and has been under observation and had more tests and scans.... So wait for it... he has gone from a cushing's boy to an addison's boy, and if it hadn't been for a locum vet being on the other day and realising that something wasn't quite right and that it wasn't pancreatitiis then i don't know what would have happened. So he is now on an anti addison's drug which is called Florinef and he has to get 1 x 0.1mg a day for 10 days, however i have to call the vets on monday to let them know how he is over the weekend. So has anybody else had this happen to their dog and where do we go from here? Is Addison's permanent or will he go back to being a cushing's boy again? I haven't done my research yet so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again

Clare and a very happy Bailey :-)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Clare,

Well, I hope they have it right this time! ;) I wish you could have posted his testing results and we may have been able to spare you and Bailey some suffering and worrying. This is why we ask for them. ;) Not to second guess your vet but to help you, and perhaps see something that has been missed or not understood.

I wonder if Addison's was his problem from the start? It is unusual for Trilo to cause complete necrosis of the adrenals but it is possible. (This is one reason it upsets me when vets tell folks Trilo is 'safe' and has 'no side effects.' :mad: ) It is my understanding that Addison's meds are a life-time commitment just like treatment for Cushing's. I have some links on Addison's that you might find helpful which I will put at the end of this post.

I hope things go well with Bailey from now on out! Bless his heart! He has gone through quite a bit lately, as have you. Please keep in touch and let us know how he is.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

Addison’s*

http://canineaddisonsinfo.com/

http://k9addisons.com/faqs/

http://pet-diseases.suite101.com/article.cfm/addisons_disease_in_dog

http://www.inmetrodetroit.com/pets/dachshund/frederick/addisons.htm

http://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/deaddisons.html

http://www.addisondogs.com/support/group.html

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AddisonDogs_/

http://canineaddisonsinfo.com/Support.html

[frijole]

Clare,

Wow you have had a wild ride. I will answer some your question and then I have some I would like to ask. ;)

Whether a dog has gone permanently Addisonian is dependent upon how low the cortisol levels got. It can be permanent or over time the adrenals can go back to over producing cortisol (cushings)

I reread the thread and regret that when you first posted we didn't "start at the beginning". It is not usual to see a dog go Addison on trilostane/vetoryl. I am trying to understand how this happened so it doesn't happen again!

Obvious possibilities are - the dosage was too high and were not adjust down which is what is the protocol. You mentioned rimadyl was prescribed. Were you giving any other drugs during this time? It could also be that your dog was misdiagnosed and never had cushings. It happens frequently.

I won't beat around the bush. If a vet is giving trilostane they should have known that vomiting is a sign of overload. Did they continue the trilo while the dog was in the hospital for "pancreatitus"?

Please try to remember all you can and tell us about the diagnosis for cushings, the tests, the results, the dosage etc. I ask this because over the last three years I have seen many times where dogs were misdiagnosed as having cushings and given drugs that they didn't need which can result in Addisons and frankly dogs can die. So it would be helpful to help you if we knew the story from the beginning.

I am also suggesting you take a look at our resource section as I think it will help you with understanding terminology, testing etc. I wish you had found us before starting trilo but I am so glad you did find us. This group saved my dog's life 3 yrs ago.

Here's the link!
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10&order=desc

Hugs!
Kim

[zoesmom]

Hi Clare -

Glad Bailey is feeling better. Just wondering what his weight was and what dose of vetoryl he was on? But more importantly, at this point, how low did his cortisol go on the trreatment? They surely did an acth to confirm the addison's, right? The above may be a clue as to whether or not the addison's will turn around or whether it is permanent.

Is he also getting prednisone along with the florinef. That is the quick antidote for too low cortisol and most addisonian dogs also take that - at least in the beginning. Yes, we have seen this happen in others, and some dogs remain addisonian for life. But on vetoryl, I think that happens much less often. So it's possible that you will see his cortisol slowly rise over the coming weeks or months. There's just no certainty.

But if he IS permanently addisonian, rest assured that it is also treatable. I understood that the florinef has to be given about every 3 weeks (maybe that's once things settle down?) I hope one of our addison's expert will be along shortly to comment. In any case, he should be monitored over the coming weeks to make sure that his cortisol is not climbing again. You would notice symptoms of cushings return and would want to get an acth to check.

Also wondering, what test(s) were done initially to diagnose the cushings. It's possible that he never had cushings to begin with. And do you have the results of those tests so you could post them. How quickly after starting the vetoryl did he start to get sick? Was a full blood and urine panel done before the cushings test(s) and were things like diabetes and hypothyroidism ruled out? It would help us to figure out whether the initial diagnosis was wrong or whether he was simply on too high a dose of vetoryl.

Hope you can get your hands on the above information. Hugs to BAiley. Sue/Zoe

PS - Are you still giving the rimadyl.? If there is no reason for it (i.e arthritis), you should be careful about using it. I feel it is a risky drug in general, (and more so for cushings dogs). If Bailey's cortisol starts rising again, it could be a problem.

[BestBuddy]

Hi Clare,

The addisons can be temporary or permanent. It could last for weeks months or for ever. My Buddy had not been doing well and started getting rather low and non stimulatory results (pre and post numbers the same) on his ACTH that we took several breaks from trilostane for a week and tried restarting at a lower dose. One morning he collapsed and was rushed to the vets with an addison attack and was injected with dexone. Luckily that was all he needed and we didn't have to give the florinef or prednisone and his cortisol numbers stayed low enough for two years and we never restarted the trilostane.

We continued to check the ACTH as Buddy's "remission" could have ended at any time. There is no way of knowing how long Bailey will continue with the addisons except for the checking of ACTH and electrolytes. Either way the addisons can also be treated with the medication so as long as Bailey is doing well that is a good thing.

Jenny