14 year old Lab, love of my life (Astro has gone to Heaven)

[astrosmom]

Hello all,

This has been quite difficult for me to find help with this very elusive disease. My beloved Labby, Astro, is an otherwise perfectly healthy happy boy, in his senior years but still a loving happy light. Lately his Cushings is getting worse, urinating excessively drinking and wobbly legs. We've tried the medications offered for Cushings but they made him SO sick. So I researched feverently and was administering "Cush-ex" drops for the past year or so. It seemed to work for about 80% of his symptoms, I was thrilled. Now, unfortunately, they seemed to stop working. His diet is the same, a very bland grain free salmon and potato by Pinnacle, limited treats that I make home made for him from grain free flours, he is not over weight and I watch him 24/7 like a mother hawk. He's succumb to the urinating, the panting, he pees in the spot he's lying in without realizing it after he just made a half hour pee outside. His Vet wants to put him back on those horrid meds. They not only changed his personality, but they also seemed to make him worse. I can't in good faith go back to that option.
I am at a loss, I dont know what to do. I research until my eyes are swollen and I cant accept there isn't something out there to help him with this besides those horrible medications that is offered by the Veterinarians. Please, is there anyone who has some experience, guidance, a Veterinarian in the New Jersey area that might specialize in Cushings? Im not ready to give up, I will never give up. He is my life, my soul puppy, my heart beat. THank you all in advance. I eagerly await any help you can give me.
Warmest Regards,
Donna

[astrosmom]

Ok, my Astro labby boy is also on a 3000mg a day of glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM concoction daily. Could this be increasing or triggering his Cushings symptoms??

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi and welcome to you and Astro,

So sorry for the reasons that brought you to us but glad you found your way here.

The ingredients in cush-ex will do nothing to lower a dog's excessive cortisol level which is what Cushing's is.

The two medicines Trilostane/Vetoryl and Mitotane/Lysodren are strong drugs but are also a life saver for dogs that have Cushing's disease. Because they are strong medicines they should only be given to a dog this is being treated by a vet who has the necessary experience and knowledge of how to treat and monitor the condition properly. Adverse ill effects are usually caused by a vet that rx's a dose that is too high or that does not treat/monitor by the proper protocols. We can help you and your sweet boy through this.

Could you tell us more about Astro, such as his weight and what medicine he was on before, plus the dosage. Was Astro checked for diabetes, thyroid problems, or an UTI? Could you round up copies of all tests that have been done on Astro and post any abnormalities that are listed, we are especially interested in the test results that were done to diagnose his Cushing's.

Please know we will help in any way we can so do not hesitate to ask any and all questions.

Love and hugs,
Lori

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[doxiesrock912]

Donna,

There are no known natural remedies that will lower cortisol sufficiently as Lori said. I also wanted to explore this route. No dice.

That being said, Daisy was recently diagnosed and properly treated by an internal medicine vet specialist and I will NOT entrust determining her treatment for Cushings by another general vet again. I made that mistake twice and the knowledge that the IMS doc has is far superior when it comes to Cushings. Even the tests have to be performed under specific conditions in order for the outcome to be accurate.

Daisy also takes glucosamine chondroitin with MSM once a day and I have not seen any affects in her Cushing's symptoms. Cushings dogs are prone to infection when their cortisol is not controlled properly and Astro's uncontrolled urinating may not be solely because of the Cushings so it's important that they test him for infection as well as Lori said.

Daisy also takes 1/2 a packet of Fortiflora with breakfast and dinner and I believe that this has helped her maintain a healthier GI tract so that she's able to handle the Trilostane and knock on wood, she's done very well on a smaller, twice a day dosage without diarrhea or stomach upset.

The difference in knowledge between an IMS vet and a general vet makes all the difference when it comes to treating Cushings effectively and maintaining a great quality of life.

I googled "Internal Medicine Vet Specialist in NJ" and came up with many hospital names with phone numbers. To narrow the list down, I would google each hospital name asking for patient reviews and read what people had to say. This will give you a head start with finding a good IMS specialist for Astro.

Good luck!

[astrosmom]

Oh thank you thank you! I will round up all of Astro's history,medications and tests and get back to you.

Thank you SO much I am overjoyed to have this hope for my special boy. Thank you more than I can convey....

Donna~

[labblab]

Hi Donna,

Welcome to you and Astro! Just wanted to explain why both Lori and I have been deleting your email address out of your replies ;). This is a public forum that is viewed around the world. This is mainly a very good thing :). But the downside is that spammers and not-so-nice people have free access to the info visible here, as well. If you wish to share your email address with specific members, you can do that via our "Private Message" system. And if, after reading this note, you still want to publicly post your email address you can go ahead. But I wanted to first give you this warning so that you are aware of the danger.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Donna and welcome toyou and Astro! :)

I so wish those Cushex quacks would quit taking advantage of the all consuming fear cush parents feel. :mad: They take our money and sell us false hope. Not only do they sell us false hope they rob our babies of valuable time when the ravages of cortisol could have been addressed. They have one concern, one goal - lining their slimy pockets with our hard earned money. :mad:

There are herbs that have the potential to address the cortisol (NONE of them are in Cushex! :mad:) but you will need to see a Holistic vet and not buy things on the web that tout a cure - there is no cure only control. And what has to be controlled is the cortisol. The surest,most effective way, tho, is via either Lysodren (Mitotane) or Trilostane (Vetoryl). And I am one who is all for natural whenever possible and am studying herbalism in pets - so I don't say these two drugs are the best approach lightly. ;)

It will help us a whole lot if you can remember how you were told to administer the med that made your boy so sick - what size dose in mg and how often it was given. Also the testing that was done after he started the med - when they were done and what the results were....the actual numbers of the test results. Some pups are just super sensitive to one or the other - ie a pup may not do well on Trilo but will do great on Lyso or vice versa. OR they may need a much lower dose than most pups do. But we can probably help you sort all that out! ;)

I'm really glad you found us and want you to know you and Astro will never be alone. We will be with you all the way.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome from me also. I just want to say Astro's pictures are lovely. Handsome guy that Astro.

The others have gotten you started out. I agree that Normally when the medication doesn't sit well it is because they are being given too much. You shouldn't notice anything except a lessening of symptoms when the dosage is low or correct. Always start low and work up, that is a good rule of thumb with the cushings meds.

Welcome again,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Simba's Mom]

Hello and welcome Donna and Astro, so glad you found this site..this disease is so hard on us and our furbabies but with information and encouragement you will no longer feel alone...and you will hopefully feel empowered when you go to the vet and understand cushings more...I have started out this journey so alone, but no longer do I feel that way, settle in and get comfortable, we are on this journey with you!!!

[Skye]

Hello!!! wanted to extend a warm and tender hug to you and gentle tummy rub for Astro.
you have found angels on earth here in this forum. rest assured you will no longer take a step a lone, you will have strength encouragement surrounding you and astro at all times. My girl to is my very breath, my every heart beat, my every smile and my sight to beauty in this world. Glad to know the bond and love you share is so special with your baby.

[Budsters Mom]

Hello and welcome from me too,:)

You have come to the right place! There is a huge arsenal of K9Cushing's angels to help and stay with you every step of the way. They love details, test results, any information you can get your hands on. The more the better.

So again welcome to you and Astro:D

Kathy and Buddy:)

[molly muffin]

Hi Donna. I wanted to check in and see how things are going with Astro.\

Hope all is well.

Let us know when you get a chance.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trixie]

Hi to you Donna..and Astro,
I am pretty new here too so I am not much use for ideas and info, still getting my footing with this too.
Once you have all your test results up there are so many people here who will be able to help you with their experience and advice.
My mini schnauzer is on day 9 of Trilostane. She is still drinking and eating like crazy so we may need an adjustment in the strength of her dose. Maybe it's possible the medications could help your Astro if the dose was adjusted in some way to avoid the nasty side effects. Everyone here will be able to help guide you with that! You came to the right place! :)
Barbara

[astrosmom]

Hello again all,

My beautiful handsome 14 year old labrador Astro is getting reoccurring UTI's most likely due to his Cushings. He leaks huge puddles of urine right after he goes out and then he urinates some more, and the urine is so toxic, it smells like it could melt plastic. He doesnt seem to be in any pain, and other than the increased urinating and wobbly legs, he is otherwise a happy sweet perfect boy. I opted to NOT give him the Trilostane because it made him SO sick. I keep him on a very bland grain free diet, he is a perfect weight and I watch him like a hawk. Only now, I am at a loss as to how to help him. I live in New Jersey, if anyone has ANY suggestions, specialists, thoughts, please please send a message. We humbly thank you...

I merged your post into your original Thread as to keep all information about Astro in one place.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Donna,

I went the ACVIM website, in our Resource Thread, and it has located 59 specialty vets. If you could either PM me or post what city is close to you I can narrow that search down some more. Here is a link to our Resource Thread where "finding an IMS" can be found: Finding an Internal Medicine Specialist Vet (ACVIM) (N. America and other countries) (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182)

Does Astro still have his UTI? Usually when an foul odor is present in urine that means an UTI is brewing, which contributes to the increased peeing/drinking.

What dosage of Trilostane did the vet have Astro on. It may be that the vet had Astro on too high of a starting dose and that is why adverse side effects were seen.

Please know we will help in any way we can, ok?

Love and hugs, Lori

[astrosmom]

You're all so lovely I am having a challenging time trying to find just the right avenue to take for my beloved Astro. There are many specialists around, but trying to narrow down the search for one who truly grasps senior dogs with Cushings. I am getting a lot of "it's just age" answers and yes, he is an older dog, but a mother knows! This is not age related, I just know it. He's getting reoccuring UTI's, and I just don't know what to do to help him. My heart is breaking. Im going to go privately write some of you now and bawl. oxox

[astrosmom]

Hello sweet Lori,

He was only on 60 mg of Trilostane. I gave it to him for a week and he had never been sicker. I thought he was going to die he was so sick. As soon as I stopped, he went back to wagging his tail and begging for food. It was as if I was poisoning him, it was just horrible to watch. I can't do it- I cant give it to him again. Now what.. :(

[Harley PoMMom]

It could have very well be that 60mg was just too high of a dose for him, and he would tolerate starting out at a much lower dose...just something to think about, ok?

If Astro still has an UTI, I believe if I were you, I would ask the vet to run an urine culture and sensitivity test. This test will tell the vet exactly what bacteria it is and what antibiotic to use for it.

I do believe that cranberry extract is used for frequent UTI's, will do some research on this.

We will help in any way we can, we are here for you and Astro.

Sending huge and loving hugs,
Lori

[doxiesrock912]

Astros mom,

Daisy Mae weighs 11lbs and she's on 5mg of Trilostane two times a day with food and Fortiflora. She doesn't get sick at all, her stools are sometimes soft but no diarrhea etc and most of all - her coat, Cushings symptoms, and state of mind have improved immensely.

Find an Internal Medicine Specialist vet. We see Dr. Morgan at Cornell in Stamford CT and she is incredible!

Untreated Cushings leads to recurrent UTI, skin issues, and an overall breakdown of the immune system. The key is to start very low with the dosage and monitor with periodic tests and what you observe.

Good luck sweetie.

[molly muffin]

I agree the first thing is to find out what kind of bacteria is causing the recurring UTI's and get an antibiotic geared toward that. Very important.
Next thing, is that, you can have some large dogs on some low dosage of vetoryl and some small dogs on big doses. Every dog is different in how they react to the medication. I would probably try a lower dose than 60mg. Then move up. Even if the dosage was clinically correct, it might be what works best for Astro. So like Lori, I urge you to give that some thought, as a dog that is having so many problems can become controlled on the proper dose and just live out a good quality life, which is what we all want.
I know this is soooo stressful for you. We will do what we can to help out and figure this out.
Hang in there. Remember you aren't alone.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[astrosmom]

I just contacted a place in Robbinsville NJ called "Northstar" veterinary trauma and specialty center. It looks to be a state of the art Veterinary facility although I fear I may need to hand over a mortgage payment or 3 when all is said and done. I will figure out a way. If they are able to help my Astro baby, I will figure out a way...

xox



Hi Donna,

I went the ACVIM website, in our Resource Thread, and it has located 59 specialty vets. If you could either PM me or post what city is close to you I can narrow that search down some more. Here is a link to our Resource Thread where "finding an IMS" can be found: Finding an Internal Medicine Specialist Vet (ACVIM) (N. America and other countries) (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182)

Does Astro still have his UTI? Usually when an foul odor is present in urine that means an UTI is brewing, which contributes to the increased peeing/drinking.

What dosage of Trilostane did the vet have Astro on. It may be that the vet had Astro on too high of a starting dose and that is why adverse side effects were seen.

Please know we will help in any way we can, ok?

Love and hugs, Lori

[Skye]

I think they take Care Credit, i use that and i LOVE it.

[molly muffin]

Care Credit would be a good thing to look into.

I hope that this is something that can be figured out simply, without tons of testing. Make sure you get copies of all testing results that you have had done to show them so you won't have to redo anything.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Donna,

I am so glad to hear that you have contacted the Northstar veterinary trauma and specialty center. I am hoping that they will be able to help Astro.

I, too, use Care Credit for my furbabies, it sure has been a life saver for me.

Here is a handy link to our financial resources thread, which does have information about Care Credit and others: Financial Resources to help with Vet bills (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212)

Like Sharlene mentioned, taking copies of Astro's tests to Northstar is a great idea.

Please do keep us updated, ok?

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Donna,

Good to hear from you again but wish it was with better news. I hope the new vet can offer you some direction and hope.

How much does Astro weigh? Was he at this weight when put on the 60mg?

There are pups who, for whatever reason, simply cannot one drug or the other. Some react badly with Lyso yet do very well with Vetoryl, and vice versa. The two work in different ways and each pup is different so it may be that Astro is one who can't handle the Vetoryl (Trilostane) but would do fine on Lysodren. If he simply cannot handle either then seek out a Holistic vet who can help via TMC or other approaches. While not as effective, they can help with the signs. Most folks taking this approach do not keep up the testing to see if the cortisol and other hormones are actually being effected so there is much controversy as to whether these approaches really help or not. Bear in mind, these treatments are drugs in their own right and as such should be respected just as much as pharmaceuticals. Also, there are pups who cannot tolerate these more "benign" treatments. ;)

Try to remember to get copies of the test results they do at Northstar, not the invoice but the actual numbers and comments for any testing they do on Astro. It's always a good idea to get copies of tests - you never know when you may need them...plus it helps you answer all our many questions. ;)

Let us know what you learn when you can.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[astrosmom]

Hi all wonderful people,

I was just contacted by email by North Star Veterinary hospital and they need a referral from my Vet. My Vet is on vacation! I am a bit nervous about going to such a big place, having numerous tests done, my finances arent that stable, but I would not hold back anything if it could help my baby. I know these large places can cost a fortune, Im going to look into the finance info on this site. Thank you all so much. I will keep you posted oxx

Donna Astro's mom

[Harley PoMMom]

Dear Friends,

Donna sent me Astro's blood panel results and gave me permission to post them here so all members can give their feedback. The values in red are abnormal.

Here are Astro's results:
Chemistry results

Test Result Reference Range
ALB 3.9 g/dL 2.5-4.0
ALKP 757 U/L H 10-150
ALT 226 U/L H 5-107
ANION GAP 18 mEq/L 12-24
AST 35 U/L 5-55
BICARB 26 mEq/L H 17-24
BUN/UREA 21mg/dL 7-27
Ca 11.2mg/dL 8.2-12.4
Chloride 110 mEq/L 105-115
CHOL 304 mg/dL 112-328
CREA 0.9 mg/dL 0.4-1.8
DBIL 0.1 mg/dL 0.0-0.2
GGT 17 U/L H 0-14
GLU 98 mg/dL 60-125
IBIL 0.0 mg/dL 0-0.3
PHOS 5.1 mg/dL 2.1-6.3
Potassium 5.5 mEq/L 4.0-5.6
TBIL 0.1 mg/dL 0.0-0.4
TP 7.0 g/dL 5.1-7.8
Sodium 148 mEq/L 141-156
A/G ratio 1.3 0.6-1.6
B/C ratio 23.3
Na/K ratio 27 27-40
GLOB 3.1g/dL 2.1-4.5
CK 243 U/L H 10-200

Ascn:J1548436
SS,LTT,NTR Xtra URINE
RE: 281 Hemolysis Index +
Index of N, +, ++ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values
RE: 282 LIPEMIA INDEX N
Index of N, +, ++ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values

Endocrinology results from Idexx reference

T4 1.1 ug/dL 1.0-4.0


Hematology results

Test Result Reference Range
BASO 0% 0-1
EOS 3% 2-10
HCT 47.2% 37-55
HGB 15.9 g/dL 12-18
LYMPHS 15% 12-30
MCH 21.8 pg 19.5-26.0
MCHC 33.7 g/dL 32-36
MCV 65 fL 60-77
MONOS 4% 3-10
NEUT SEG 79% H 60-77
PLATELETS 354 K/uL 164-510
RBC 7.29 M/uL 5.5-8.5
WBC 7.3 K/uL 5.7-16.3
ABS BASO 0/uL 0-100
ABS EOS 219/uL 100-1250
ABS LYMPHS 1095/uL 1000-4800
ABS MONOS 292/uL 150-1350
ABS NEUTS 5767/uL 3000-11500

[Harley PoMMom]

I thought I would post a little history on Astro. His symptoms are: incontinence, increased drinking/urinating, and wobbly legs. He has reoccurring UTI's and they just finished a weeks worth of antibiotics for bacteria in his urine, he was perfect for about 3 days, then his UTI symptoms started again.

He was on 60 mg of Trilostane for a week and he was sicker.

Donna,

Could you tell us how much Astro weighs? And what tests for Cushing's were performed, such as an ACTH stimulation test or a LSSD test.

I think his blood work results look pretty darn good for a 14 year old boy. I do see elevations in his liver values which could be due to Cushing's.

I think, if Astro were my furbaby, I would ask that an urine culture and sensitivity test be done so Astro can get this nasty reoccurring UTI stopped.

[astrosmom]

Of course of course, here is some more information:

my beloved Astro weighs a perfect 85 pounds, he is not under nor over weight for a Labrador Retriever, (and yes, for 14, he's spectacular, isnt he? Im just a touch partial :)) he eats grain free natural salmon and potato dry food from Pinnacle, home made treats that I make for him from scratch with all organic ingredients and in so far as the ACTH and LSSD tests, Im not sure what they are- but he did have a test that was an 8 hour test- was that one of the above mentioned?

He is leaking urine, and this urine smells like it could melt plastic. It's EXTREMELY foul, and I'm sure it must bother him but he's always had an extremely high pain tolerance. His legs are very wobbly, to the point he can't stand for long periods of time and then he slides right down to the floor, yet he still does go for short walks where he relishes the fresh air and smiles with every step. He gets reoccurring UTI's, this last time there was blood in his urine and I almost flatlined when I saw it. They put him on a heavy anti biotic, then just like clockwork- immediately after the dose was finished, he started leaking the toxic urine again. His Vet claims since I am not taking care of the cushings with medication, is why he keeps getting these infections. Am I a horrible mother?? The meds made him sick, I didnt know what else to do!
As I view the paperwork, it doesnt mention if they do sensitivity testing with the urine culture, but they do send the culture out to a lab. If I called the Vet's office, would they be able to tell me if it was sensitivity tested? His Vet would probably be willing to take X Rays and bloodwork that the specialist would require but at a fraction of the cost. I HATE to sound like a cheapo, Im just trying to consolidate where I can so I can utilize the funds when and where it will be truly needed. Thank you all SO SO much, you've all been so wonderful and given me hope. At this point Im just coasting- awaiting your responses as to what to do next. Big hugs to each of you and your fur children~ oxo

Astro's mom Donna :)

ps my house stinks! We're not talking little drips of pee here! Im going to have to take out stock in Nature's Miracle soon! lol

[Harley PoMMom]

Of course of course, here is some more information:

my beloved Astro weighs a perfect 85 pounds, he is not under nor over weight for a Labrador Retriever, (and yes, for 14, he's spectacular, isnt he? Im just a touch partial :)) he eats grain free natural salmon and potato dry food from Pinnacle, home made treats that I make for him from scratch with all organic ingredients and in so far as the ACTH and LSSD tests, Im not sure what they are- but he did have a test that was an 8 hour test- was that one of the above mentioned?

Sounds like Astro eats pretty good! :)

The LSSD test does take 8 hours to perform so it does look like this is the test that Astro received, could you post those results for us, there should be 3 numbers; a baseline or resting number, a 4 hour number and an 8 hour number, do you see these on his test results?


He is leaking urine, and this urine smells like it could melt plastic. It's EXTREMELY foul, and I'm sure it must bother him but he's always had an extremely high pain tolerance. His legs are very wobbly, to the point he can't stand for long periods of time and then he slides right down to the floor, yet he still does go for short walks where he relishes the fresh air and smiles with every step. He gets reoccurring UTI's, this last time there was blood in his urine and I almost flatlined when I saw it. They put him on a heavy anti biotic, then just like clockwork- immediately after the dose was finished, he started leaking the toxic urine again.

Usually when a foul odor is emitted this is a sign of an UTI. And it could be that the bacteria is resistant to the antibiotic the vet put him on. A urine culture and sensitivity test will tell the vet exactly what antibiotic to use for the specific bacteria.



His Vet claims since I am not taking care of the cushings with medication, is why he keeps getting these infections. Am I a horrible mother?? The meds made him sick, I didnt know what else to do!
As I view the paperwork, it doesnt mention if they do sensitivity testing with the urine culture, but they do send the culture out to a lab.

You are not a horrible mother so get that thought right out of your head, ok? Astro's age is a true testament of your love and devotion.

When dogs have Cushing's they have excess cortisol running through their bodies and it does make them more prone to infections. And even though Astro weighs 85lbs, the 60mg could of been too much for him or he could of been going through what's called "cortisol withdrawal" syndrome. Astro might tolerate Trilostane/Vetoryl a lot better if he started out at a lower dose.


If I called the Vet's office, would they be able to tell me if it was sensitivity tested? His Vet would probably be willing to take X Rays and bloodwork that the specialist would require but at a fraction of the cost.

I would ask them specifically if an urine culture and sensitivity test was done on Astro's urine sample. I would also ask them how long the lab "grows" the bacteria? The vet should be able to give you these answers.


I HATE to sound like a cheapo, Im just trying to consolidate where I can so I can utilize the funds when and where it will be truly needed. Thank you all SO SO much, you've all been so wonderful and given me hope. At this point Im just coasting- awaiting your responses as to what to do next. Big hugs to each of you and your fur children~ oxo



In no way do we think you are a cheapo, we totally understand the frustration with how expensive this all is.

Sending you and Astro huge hugs, Lori

[astrosmom]

What wonderful advice! Ok, so I have homework to do for tomorrow. Now, even though the vet is away on vacation their office should be able to give me these results, correct? They wanted another urine smple for after the dose of anti biotics was finished anyway, so at least this time I can ask that they test in the way you described. Im going to go in with all of the things you'd mentioned written down. You've been so very helpful, I can't thank you enough! I will keep you posted. If anything else comes to mind that you feel I should ask or mention you know what to do! lol oxox thank you thank you again I am so forever grateful

Tight hugs
Donna~

[Skye]

Did they do. Ulture on urine fo make sure they were freating with correct antibotic? Have you. COnsidered a ultrasound? That would be my suggestion. Make sure bladder walls are good, kidneys and liver. Have they test for both type of diabetes? You are a beautiful momma to astro dont u dare allow yourself to think any different. Your doing all u can with all you got. Once some answers surface and plan to care and treat are in place hopefully will vive u chance to catch up. I have care credit and love it. It has helped me from day one and they do consoildafion loans too. Hugs to u and kiss on snout to astro

[astrosmom]

So today, as if God knew I-we needed a reprieve, Astro has been FANTASTIC. Not a leak, not a drip, not a squirt. From peeing all over the house one day, to a perfect drip free peesh the next. I have all of your wonderful information still close at hand, you've all post such AMAZING insight- more than I could have ever hoped. I'm taking this one day at a time right now. Astro is 14, I love him more and more every day. Just keeping you all posted and thanking you all so much for your warm wonderfulness :)
xoxo

Donna Astro's mom

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Donna,
Bask in the moment!:D. Where else can we go to celebrate a drip free pee day!:D. Thanks for the update.

Sending hugs to you and a Belly rub to Astro,

Kathy and Buddy:cool:

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your update about Astro into his original thread. We normally like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members to refer back to the pup's history when needed. Thanks!

[Squirt's Mom]

Must be something going 'round! My Squirt has also been dry! :D Good feeling, ain't it?

[astrosmom]

I love when you guys keep all of my posts in order!! Can you come do my closets?!? lol

Alas, I spoke too soon. Around 7pm this evening not quite 3 hours after I was praising a dry day, my Astro baby tried to get up from a lying down position, and peed the whole way up. The pee smells foul again. I think I must be in denial or something- because I don't quite know which route to go; do I go straight to the specialists? Do I try and get another fresh set of eyes from a few other local vets that have come with referrals? Do I hold off until my regular vet gets back from vacation and ask her what she thinks? As I re-read all of your posts, Im writing down the questions mentioned to ask and tests to recommend. In any event, he's not in pain but Im pretty sure the infection is still brewing, unless foul stench eye burning pee is the new norm.
I'm going to go hug him now.

I'll be back . Thanks again all oxx

Astro's loony mom.

[molly muffin]

Nope, last time I checked it's not the new norm at all. Whichever you choose to go to, you need a culture and a different antibiotic, one tailored specifically to his infection. These things can be real buggers to get rid of, but it does need to go and sooner the better. Prolonged infection, can affect the kidneys, so I probably wouldn't wait.
Man, I try to organize my closet, I'm telling you, the forum is much easier and not nearly as messy as what I see every morning. LOL
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[molly muffin]

Some of our members have had good luck with Baytril for very persisitent UTI's. Maybe that is something to speak with your a vet about. It's an antibiotic.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Skye]

i would say go for the specialist. keep reg, vets for reg normal stuff. Check ups, vacs. parasite checks the normal stuff. Past that i would in my opinion always try to get to a doctor who specializes in the area.

[astrosmom]

Hello to all of you wonderful people,

It's been a (*double knock wood*) leak free TWO days with our sweet 14 year old Astro, but it is way past due time for the flea and tick season. I take off the winter months as we don't venture out much past the driveway. My question is, do you continue your frontline/ flea ticket prevention and what are your thoughts on its effects if at all with our babies who have Cushings?

Second query; I give Astro cranberry pills twice a day with his meals along with glucosamine/msm. I've just recently upped the dose of cranberry and although he still has to urinate frequently, he's not making the pishy flood mess that he was scaring me with a week ago.

His legs are still quite wobbly, perhaps a touch more, but the leaks have subside. This is an odd and elusive disease :(

I look forward to your responses :)


Astro's mom
Donna~

[doxiesrock912]

Donna, I apply Frontline Plus year round on Daisy and when I asked the IMS if this has any affect on Cushings, she said not at all.

I hope that this helps and I'm glad that Astro is doing better.

[astrosmom]

Hi Valerie :)

This totally helps, thank you!!

xo~

[Trish]

Hi, don't know much about the use of cranberry in dogs.

But the evidence for use in people is still sketchy. They use it mainly for preventing UTI, specifically E Coli. It does not help when you actually have a UTI but is used as a preventative. It works by stopping the stickability of bacteria, so theoretically the bugs will not latch on anywhere but wash out when you pass urine. It does not help with reduction of lower urinary tract symptoms such as frequency etc.
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001321/cranberries-for-preventing-urinary-tract-infections

Personally I doubt it would be responsible for the improvement in symptoms you are noticing, but then I may be unaware of any benefits in its use in dogs :)

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about cranberry pills and Frontline into Astro’s original thread. We like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members to refer back to the pup's history when needed. Thanks!

If it has been a day or two since you have posted on Astro's thread, you may have to go back a page or two on the Question and Discussion board. To help you find his thread, here is the link -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5175

[Squirt's Mom]

I used cranberries, dried fresh cranberries, with my Pit mix who had struvite crystals to help prevent bacterial infections as those infections often lead to struvite growth. It did help Crys a great deal. I also gave her citrus fruits like navel and mandarin oranges to increase the acidic levels to help prevent struvite growth, which she dearly loved.

[goldengirl88]

Donna:
Hello and welcome to you and Astro. I am so sorry your baby is having troubles. I can tell you that my precious Tipper would not be here if it were not for Vetoryl. I agree with the others that Cushx drops do not work and they need to quit selling them. If I were you I would start off on a low dose of these drugs and let your Astro's body become accustomed to them them and get used to having this drug every day. You can always increase. It is much better to start out low, I know for a fact as my Tipper is allergic to everything you give her and gets a bad reaction. I started her on only 10 mg a day and worked up from there. She is now on 30mg. Also what Valerie told you about the IMS is an excellent idea. If you want to try and maintain your dogs present health, you need to get Asto on one of these drugs to get the cortisol in check. The weakenss you are speaking of is muscle wasting because of the high cortisol. I wish you much luck. God Bless you and Astro.
Patti

[astrosmom]

Hi again all :) Astro's mom here :)

Astro and I are coasting along, we had almost 3 full leak free weeks and I thought maybe we beat the horrible continual UTI's that Astro is very prone to getting. Well, today we started leaking again with toxic smelly drips. (Ughh!!) I can tell my poor baby isn't feeling well again, he just has that sluggish wobbly presence. (A mother knows!)
I vaguely remember reading that some of you give your fur babies vitamins, to possibly help build their immune system. I know I'm stretching to find an easier answer than what is actually occurring here, so before I start all over with tests, a new Vet and excessive worry, can you give me your vitamin thoughts?

Many many thanks to all of you~

Fondly,

Donna

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about vitamins into Astro’s original thread. We like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members to refer back to the pup's history when needed. Thanks!

If it has been a day or two since you have posted on Astro's thread, you may have to go back a page or two on the Question and Discussion board. To help you find his thread, here is the link -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5175

[astrosmom]

I finally made an appointment with a specialist at Garden State hospital in Tinton Falls NJ, this coming Friday. Are there any questions, tests, thoughts that I might ask the Doctor? I have some written down but I would love a brain storm session :)

Wish us luck :)

[astrosmom]

that's awesome I was hoping you would :)

[Harley PoMMom]

I finally made an appointment with a specialist at Garden State hospital in Tinton Falls NJ, this coming Friday. Are there any questions, tests, thoughts that I might ask the Doctor? I have some written down but I would love a brain storm session :)

Wish us luck :)

Hi Donna,

Some questions that come to mind are: How many dogs are they treating or have treated that have Cushing's. What their preference is, Trilostane/Vetoryl or Lysodren/Mitotane. If they prefer to treat with Trilostane/Vetoryl, do they follow UC Davis or Dechra's dosing recommendations.

That's all I can think of right now, if anymore come to my feeble mind I'll post them. ;)

Wishing you and Astro the best of luck!! Please keep us updated!!

Love and hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

My mind isn't coming up with anything that we haven't talked before. A urine culture is needed to find out exactly what type of UTI he is getting, so an antibiotic for that bacteria can be given to him and not a general one. I think that is a first step. If you go with a cushings medication then remind them that at 60mg he was sicker than before. Perhaps a split of 30mg/30mg might be more beneficial than a once a day 60mg dose.
These are just some random thoughts that I had this morning and after reading back over your thread.
Hang in there!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[astrosmom]

Thank you both so much. Astro seems to be feeling good this morning thank God, and actually woke me up bright eyed and bushy tailed for breakfast. I was able to grab some fresh morning urine so we can have it cultured. I'm still quite nervous and not sure how to deal with what's to come along with how I might be paying for the monthly meds, as they are quite expensive. Ugh money woes, I loathe them!
As for the UC Davis or Dechra's dosing, if I ask this, it may seem I know what I'm talking about (which I don't!) so why am I asking this, and what might I follow up with once I get my answer?

[Harley PoMMom]

UC Davis recommends a starting dose of 1mg/kg of a dog's weight, while Dechra suggests a starting dose of 1mg-3mg/lb. If a dog weighs 20 lbs, UC Davis would want the dog to be started at 9 mg, Dechra, on the other hand would want the dog to be started out at least at 20 mg, quite a difference in dosage.

All this info and more can be found from our Resource Thread here: Trilostane/Vetoryl Information and Resources (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185)

Love and hugs, Lori

[astrosmom]

Hi all,

What a horrible experience I had today at Garden State Veterinary Hospital in Tinton Falls NJ. I would recommend that NO one take their pet to this place short of a nuclear meltdown. The Vet was rude, his assistant stood by like she was annoyed to be there, the staff was preoccupied and after my Astro boy was poked, prodded and ultra sounded, he came out of the testing area stinking of pee and dying of thirst. He had a boil that just developed on his tush the night before which was brought to the Vet's attention but quickly dismissed, and it exploded and bled all over the place as soon as I got home.

In addition, this Vet was not pleased that I asked questions; when I did, he responded with, "Can I finish with what I was saying?!" I was flabbergasted. After he continued to rudely speak, I all but tuned him out; he tells me he thinks he saw on the ultra sound that there is a large tumor on Astro's adrenal gland and it's not out of the question that he have surgery to remove it. SURGERY on a 14 year old Labrador Retriever? I was so upset at this point I was afraid to ask any more questions. My initial reason for going to the specialist at this point was due to Astro's consistent UTI's. So they did do a sterile urine sample which will be cultured and I will have to speak to this person about the results when they come in next week. This was one of the worst experiences I've ever had at a Veterinarian. $1,000 later, Im tempted to stop payment. I won't, but I'm tempted.

[frijole]

Yikes that was a bad day. OK so here's what you need to do. Don't blow up til AFTER you get a copy of all test results including the write up on the ultrasound. Then write it all up for us to help you with! :D We are friendly and free so hopefully that will make up for today. You don't have to go back there. Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Donna, I am so sorry to hear that your vet visit went horribly wrong. :mad:

Like Kim mentioned, we are here and we will help, ok? ;)

Sending huge and loving hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh! That is horrible experience. I am very sorry. Definitely get all copies of everything and if when they get the culture results do get a prescription for that, we want that UTI to clear up completely.
Also, my Vet ER, gave me our ultrasound copy on a dvd, so I have that too. They also emailed it to my regular vet. 1,000 is astronomical! I'm pretty shocked that they charged that much! That is too high in my opinion.
Definitely post the abnormal high/low from all tests. Once you get the culture results you don't have to go back there ever again, but do get everything from them, so nothing has to be repeated.

Hugs, I am so sorry Donna :( This is so awful, when all you are is worried about your beautiful boy.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[astrosmom]

I must say Molly, I am about to drive out to see your Veterinarian after this fiasco. I am so upset I feel like Astro and I just burned money we don't have on a facility that didn't deserve the fecal matter that Astro left (and I cleaned up.)

Can I request copies of Astro's entire file? Do I have that right?
Below is the itemized bill, that's all they gave me.
$480 for the ultra sound
Then we have a "senior wellness prof" I assume is the bloodwork for $180
the urine culture is $175
Cystocentesis was $42 (what is this?)
The "exam specialist" was $175
they had the nerve to charge me $6 for "hazardous waste fee"

He said Astro was in pain so he prescribed tramidol. I gave him a small dose of it tonight, does this have any adverse affects with Cushings?
Im going to go hug him now. He's making whiny noises, which he never did before....

[molly muffin]

They did do a bit more than I thought they did. I didn't realize that they did a senior wellness prof too. That can get spendy and your urine culture was actually cheaper than mine. I guess what I got out of it was the dvd.

Cystocentesis is when the procedure of using a needle to get a clean draw for the urine culture.

Oh poor Astro, he probably does not feel very well after going through all that today. Yea, he needs some hugs.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Yes you do have the right to ask for copies of Astro's records, now, they can, also, charge you for that.


(f) Copies of a licensee's record or a summary report of
such record and copies or all pertinent objective data and
papers pertaining to a given patient, along with a key to any
codes, abbreviations and non-English words appearing on
such record, data or papers, shall be furnished to the palient's
owner, a designated representative or a designated veterinarian
with in 10 business days,of a written request by the owner
or duly authorized representative. A licensee may charge a
fee pursuant to (c) above for providing copies or records.


http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/laws/vetregs.pdf

Section 13:44-4.9

[goldengirl88]

Astro's Mom:
I am so sorry for what happened to you. I just don't understand some of these Vets, the rudeness, the uncaring attitudes, without an ounce of empathy. Please request all of the information they have - records, test results, etc. first before you do anything. That way you can get help from the sane and caring people on here. I have had several experiences similar to yours where the Vet's ego filled the room, and they didn't want to give me a chance to speak.It is extremely hard to find a vet who doesn't have a cash register in his head, and who truly is in it for the sake of the animals. It is so hard to recoup the money spent on an episode like this. It's a shame as then when you need it you don't have it. I feel for you as I have been there. I don't have money to throw around on Vets that don't listen to me either. We are the ones who are with these babies 24/7 and the things we have to tell about their history can mean the difference between a correct diagnosis, and one where the Vet thinks he has it all figured out and doesn't really. You then spent the money and go home and are no further ahead with the problems your baby has. I learned my lesson, and when the Vet keeps talking, I shut them up and tell them if they can't or won't listen to me the caretaker, then we are both wasting our time. A good listening vet , is your best bet as they will pick up on things from what you tell them, and ask intelligent questions that get to the bottom of the dogs problem. God Bless you and poor Astro as he certainly didn't deserve this crap.
Patti

[doxiesrock912]

I would get the records and go elsewhere. They don't deserve your hard earned money. I have zero tolerance for people like that.

[Skye]

I am livid that you and your baby were treated that. grrrrrrrrrrrr i would have climbed up over that table and given the doctor a cysto right there. (trust me, i dont think any man would like that done, lol....makes me smile just thinking about it after what happened for you and your baby there....) Well.....men who behave that poorly usually dont have much control or say within their own home....lol, i am so mean snippy but i like the saying goes.....mess with my dog or friends dog...lol......and i will break out a level of crazy that will make your nightmares seem like a happy place.
you need to come to texas and see some of the doctors here. yes i have had my issues with a few...funny when tech, husband both start backing up to the door or wall knowing if someone doesnt start listening all exits need cleared. LOL. OR you can play into their game of all knowing vet and some are will give credit however not to the mean one you saw....and say...i am sorry doctor....i am nervous, and yes this has been stressful, please understand you are a specialist, above superior knowledge than what i have been exposed to and it is intimidating yet i have so much to learn from you and understand that is why all my questions, i am seeking your trained professional hands and eyes to help save what is so important to me, and your knowledge to help me understand how to help my baby as you guide us on this journey. This will be good distraction as I am preparing the tray to take with me as i climb over table to get the cysto.......lol
hope your smiling sweetheart, and every time shysie has a cysto she is a bit clingy to. I feel very blessed to have found the specialist we have. they all likely have flasks stored away in their desk when they see us on the books...lol, thats okay....i have one stored away for when i see them on calender. lol. and i can say that really i never full heartedly completely trust and still question and think, and research. and still worry. lol. why take one persons word with what means the world to you, asking questions helps you make the soundest decision for your baby. reading, asking others, etc. if one specialist knew all there would only be that one specialist in that field. Know what i mean? AND BTW.....that is what happened to my girl also....repeating UTI's prior to finding the tumor on the adrenal gland. alot of factors go into that surgery and alot of questions to ask on all sides of it. LOTS. give your darling kiss on snout, we are sending our love to you both.

[astrosmom]

Hello again all,

My sweet Astro boy isn't doing very well. Im crying quiet sobs while lying next to him trying to not let him hear me. The anti biotics he's been prescribed for his very strong UTI seems to be curing his infection as the toxic pee smell has greatly subsided but it has otherwise seemed to increase the Cushing symptoms. He is more wobbly legged than ever; he doesnt walk for more than a few steps and then he falls down. His regular Vet suggested I try the Veteryol again, smaller dose this time and see how it reacts. I told her there is no way I will do surgery, as she has been made aware that Astro more than likely has an adrenal tumor. So many fears, Astro still has 2 weeks left on the antibiotic (simplicef) but she (his vet) said to try the Cushings meds now anyway. I gave him an aspirin for dogs in hopes that may ease some discomfort as the tramadol they prescribed didnt seem to do much but make him wobblier. His back hip bones, they seem to be poking up and out right around his hip area, where his legs drag and fail. My poor baby. My heart is breaking in a thousand pieces. I know one of you has a specialist in Connecticut that you really liked. Im in New Jersey, it's an hour and a half drive, I'd make it to see a good Doctor. Please tell me what to do, Im making deals with God at this point. He's my baby. He's been my baby for 14 years. I dont know life without him.

[Trixie]

I'm so sorry you and Astro are both in distress tonight. It's so difficult to feel so helpless when you just want him to be ok.
Are you in Northern NJ?? How far are you from New York City? There is the Animal Medical Center on the Eastside and there is also a a specialty vet clinic called Blue Pearl on West 55th Street that has specialists for everything. It is very well respected and I know people who have gone there and gave it great reviews. Perhaps if you don't feel like you can find someone in your area you can try one of these places where there are only specialists, if it's not too far for you.
Hope things will feel a little better in the morning for you both.
Barbara

[Simba's Mom]

Sending hugs and prayers for Astro and you too....

[molly muffin]

Oh I am sorry things aren't going well for Astro. I know this is very distressing. It is possible that a lower dose of vetoryl will help him. I am sure that he was given too high of a dose to start out with before. If you choose that route. I would go low for sure just to see how he does on it.

Valerie who has the specialist in Connecticut is currently away this week, probably back this weekend. She is going to Cornell in Stamford, Conn 1-203-595-2777 , they are open 24/7.

Hang in there. I know this is sooo hard. You can come on here anytime and talk though.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Oh gosh, poor Astro and poor you dealing with all this. I must say though you are trying everything for your sweetie! I hope you can find a specialist who can help you. That urine infection sounds very nasty, you have not mentioned the culture result? Did they get back to you with that to make sure Astro is on the right antibiotic? If the infection gets into the rest of their system they can be very ill, with kidney pain so I would want to make very sure he was on the correct drug to fight it. Hope Astra is feeling better soon. :)

[Concernedmom]

Hi Donna
I read your posts and was very sad to hear about your baby. The only thing i wanted to add which might be helpful for you is looking into homeopathic remedies. I will give you the short version of the story. My dog is 13 yrs old, was seen by a homeopathic vet for cushings, was prescribed and is taking remedies along with a change of a homemade diet and my boy has been doing quite well for 3 months now. We attribute this change to 2 basic remedies that were mentioned in the "British Homeopathic Journal" (2001). Called
"Cushings disease a new approach to therapy in equine and canine patients." I attach the link for you to review My boy is taking both of the remedies listed in this report.
He started on Trilostane, had bad effects with it so we stopped and chose this new approach. Many people are afraid of this approach and say none of this works but it is working for my dog and that's all I can go on. He's healthy, happy and symptoms are all controlled. I don't want to convince anyone I just wish and hope people would start to read the link. It says it all. I wish you long health and many years with your babes.

http://www.bahvs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Cushings-Research.pdf

[astrosmom]

Hello all, it's been a while since I've post here of Astro's Cushings disease journey, please let me update you and if you have any shred of advice, help, hope guidance I am open to anything and everything.

After several bouts of multiple urinary infections spanning over 3 years, we finally seemed to cure it with a full month of the antibiotic "Simplicef". Believe it or not, Astro seemed to do quite well when he was on the anti biotic; as soon as he was finished with the Simplicef dose, his Cushings disease symptoms kicked into over drive. (panting, wobbly legs, falling down, whining, crying, excessive drinking/urinating) Can there be any coincidence here?

So, the anti biotic dose was complete, and his urine was re checked and cleared, I found a wonderful Veterinarian who re-read the "specialists" records and it was concluded that Astro has a large tumor on his adrenal gland, which is why when we tried the Vetroyl is made him so sick; what I am to understand, most Cushings medications are geared to assist the pituitary Cushings which effects 85% of dogs who have the disease. Astro, in keeping true to his beautiful character, has the rarer type that effect but 15%, which is the adrenal Cushings.

If Astro were younger, this Veterinarian also said he would strongly recommend to operate and remove this large tumor. But, being my beloved is 14, he suggested we try Lysodren. I was skeptical after reading so many horror stories on the drug but Astro wasn't doing well and I needed to try something and this Veterinarian who was very thorough and knowledgable, was confident this was the best option to try.

Astro's loading dose was cut to 3 days instead of the recommended 7 due to how poorly he reacted with the Vetroyl. He barely made it through 2 days. (1 and1/2 pills 500 mg each pill twice a day) The dose was cut in half and then I was to wait 3 days and then give him two 500 mg tablets at once twice a week. There was no way Astro could handle TWO pills at once when he was a mess with 1 and 1/2.

I noticed Astro's symptoms worsen in the evening hours. Badly. He can hardly stand on his own, he pants, he whines/cries and needs to make sure someone is around him at all times. I never leave his side. So I started giving him HALF a pill in the evenings (250 mg) and within the hour, he is sleeping, and resting.

I am waiting on a call back from the Vet to see if what I am doing is helping, hurting, or doing nothing.

My last vent is how expensive this drug is. 20 pills cost me over $215 dollars. I've applied for Care Credit, but at that rate, I'll be out of my limit God willing Astro makes it for the next 6 months.

Still, Im not sure what this medication is doing for him but subsiding the symptoms and uneasiness. He still can't walk more than a few steps without falling down, and his muscles seem to be completely broken down. Still, he looks forward to his breakfasts and dinners, which are Pinnacle's grain free salmon and potato. The last few nights I've tossed in some sardines just to give him something to look forward to. He lit up like a brilliant Christmas tree. God love him.

So this is where we stand today. In the mornings he wakes up wobbly, but able to just make it outside to do his business, eat his breakfast, and then he sleeps for 8 hours until dinner. After dinner, which is around 5pm, his Cushings symptoms seem to start to worsen, and by 8'oclock he is panting, whining, and can't get up. That's when I give him half a lysodren pill (250 mg) he slowly falls to sleep in peace.

If I rambled or repeated myself, I apologize. I just wanted to get out all that I can think of as my head and heart are so desperate to heal my beautiful boy. I know I can't hold on to him forever. But Im praying God will show us mercy and wisdom so I can make the rest of his days the best that they can be.

I look forward to your responses and suggestions. Thank you for your patience and positive thoughts.

xox
Donna, Astro's mom

[doxiesrock912]

Donna, it seems that the Lyso wears off by night time since Astro's symptoms return then? I don't know much about this medication since Daisy is on Vetyrol but if it works the same, that could be the problem.

I'm sure that someone who does know more will pipe in soon.

[frijole]

Lysodren mom here - that is a HUGE dose please tell me asap how much your dog weighs. Thanks, Kim

[frijole]

I read part of your previous thread (by the way I am going to merge them so everything is in the same spot)

I see your dog weighs 80 lbs and so that dose is actually spot on. I'm going to be very honest - I don't think it is the drug lysodren (or previously the trilo) that is causing the problems - I think it is the tumor. The symptoms are the same while on both drugs and it doesn't appear that you were able to get the cushings controlled with either. I don't know the history of your trilostane experience but I am telling you that you cannot expect to have success with lysodren by cutting the dose the way that you did. I totally get that you are afraid of it - I was at first too but if you are going to lower the cortisol you must use the drug and keep at it.

Do you have any idea how large the adrenal tumor is and what type it is? It could be that it is 'active' at night which is why you are seeing the symptoms more at that time. Cushings is simply caused by that tumor and it is responsible for dumping an excess of cortisol into your baby's body. (think adrenaline rush) When left untreated (meaning cortisol is still too high) dogs feel bad, they pant, they lose control /strength in the back legs. Obviously this is a huge deal with a larger dog.

The whining concerns me because I wonder if he isn't in pain from the tumor. I came to this site over 8 yrs ago scared to death and have been here ever since.. trust me I have seen horror stories with both trilostane and lysodren. But the horror is caused by two things - a vet that is clueless and doesn't follow procedures on how to use the drug and/or an owner who doesn't listen to instructions on how to give the drug.

I am linking you to info on how it works (the process). I can't tell you what to do because I don't have near enough info. I would be asking for info on the tumor size and location - it could be that it has grown and thus the pain.

You have basically 3 options: surgery, treat with meds, do nothing. None of them are easy as you know. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it go away.... but I can't.

I have to step out for a few minutes but will be back to check in. Hang in there, Kim
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181

[frijole]

Forgot to mention - lysodren does not "wear off" throughout the day as suggested - it works differently than trilostane. So it has nothing to do with what you are seeing at night.

I re read your thread entirely and I don't see an acth test result anywhere. This is the test they do to determine how well trilostane and lysodren are working. They must be done regularly and before making dose changes. Can you please get this info for us? It will tell us a great deal about Astro's cortisol levels. Appreciate it! Kim

[astrosmom]

My baby weighs around 85 pounds. Would you risk operating to remove the tumor on a 14 year old Labrador?
The doctor told me the tumor size, but it escapes me now. From what I understand it is rather large for an adrenal tumor. I am at a total loss as to what to do.

[astrosmom]

When I speak with the Vet hopefully tomorrow, what should I ask him, what is it that I should be trying to accomplish? I love my Astro so much, I just want to do what's best. Right now I give him 250 mg a night, it's been 3 nights so far. My poor baby. My poor baby.

[astrosmom]

I just read the lysoderm link, Kim. Sh*t, Im doing everything wrong. My poor boy Im not helping him afterall-

[frijole]

I can't say if I'd do the surgery - I don't have enough information. It is obviously easier to do when the tumor is first discovered and the dog is healthier. I had one dog with cushings that used lysodren and I had another dog who had an adrenal tumor - she was MISdiagnosed and didn't have cushings - she had an adrenal tumor but not the kind that cause cushings (they just gave us 7 false positives on cushings test though)..... in her case I did NOT have the adrenal tumor removed. Had we discovered it earlier I might have but it took a year for me to get answers on what was even wrong. By that time she had lost a ton of weight and she was frail. She lived for 2 yrs with the tumor. It was a small tumor and it didn't grow much.

That said your baby appears to be in pain - you mentioned he was on tramadol some time ago. That is a powerful opiate (I have used it on both my dogs) and it can make legs wobbly but I assume the wobbly was prior to giving it.

You didn't answer my question yet regarding acth testing. If you don't read anything else I post please read this. The single most important thing you can do right now is to get a grasp on this illness. You can't make good decisions without understanding it. We can only take it so far.

ACTH tests are critical - have you had any done while using trilostane and/or lysodren? If so what are the test results (there are 2 numbers on them) If you don't have copies I want you to get them and share them. that will tell us how well the trilostane was working and how well the lysodren is working.

In simple terms cushings means high cortisol. The tumor makes it and it makes your dog sick. You have to lower the cortisol to give your dog relief. You lower cortisol by giving either trilostane or lysodren. Your posting is sporadic over the months so we don't have the whole story on what happened with trilostane (ie at x mgs per day cortisol was at x level but we increased it to x mgs and cortisol went to x"

I can only tell you that what you have done with lysodren won't work. Your dog has an adrenal tumor and that means doses are usually HIGHER than normal. Giving the 250 mgs at night is like giving an elephant a baby aspirin. Your dog would require the dose that you started out at. You give it until loaded and then you do an acth test. It appears you only stuck with the protocol for two days. Please tell me exactly why you ceased giving it. Then tell me what was different with lysodren vs trilostane (side effects). Then tell me what happens when your dog has no drugs. I am trying to understand the whole story and put pieces of the puzzle together.

You said : He can hardly stand on his own, he pants, he whines/cries and needs to make sure someone is around him at all times.

You haven't given enough lysodren for his cortisol to be too low so I'd have to guess that he can hardly stand because of uncontrolled cushings (too high cortisol). Panting is a sign of uncontrolled cushings. Whines/cries - that isn't a sign of cushings - that is a sign of pain. That is what concerns me most.

I'm concerned you quit on the lysodren before you gave it a shot but I need you to answer my question above before I can make that conclusion. So I can't say if it were my dog I'd give lysodren a try - because maybe something happened that I don't know about.

We need to know test results, tumor size and location if possible. Get a copy of the ultrasound and write us what it says. The info on that report would be helpful to you in making a decision to do surgery or not.

I read that you switched vets and am wondering how long the vet you are working with has been on the case. It would be helpful if you could tell us the whole story - we need details - start to finish. Kim

[frijole]

I just read the lysoderm link, Kim. Sh*t, Im doing everything wrong. My poor boy Im not helping him afterall-
Thanks for reading the link. That's a start. Then you probably now agree with my last post about the elephant and the aspirin. Now's not the time for emotions - it is the time for you to be strong and get up to speed on what this disease is and figure out what you want to do about it. We can only give you facts to help you base that decision. We can't give you facts without knowing the whole story, test results etc. Deep breaths :) Kim

[astrosmom]

I will work on getting all the things you asked for Kim, thank you for your in depth response. Right now Astro is sleeping peacefully, which is like a sunshine ray in a sky of dark clouds.
I am with him all day, Astro is never alone, not ever. I don't have him on any pain killers, the tramedol was prescribed if needed I gave it to him once, didnt like it. Im not sure about the ACTH test, I will ask the Vet. I know we had a bunch of tests done, but none recently.
Ok, Im going to try to get some sleep, I will keep you posted. Thank you so much
Donna

[doxiesrock912]

Donna, is Astro being seen by a general vet or an IMS specialist?

[frijole]

Night night... I'm off to bed too.

Here's some info that might be helpful. Intro to Cushings stuff

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180

[Squirt's Mom]

Donna, it seems that the Lyso wears off by night time since Astro's symptoms return then? I don't know much about this medication since Daisy is on Vetyrol but if it works the same, that could be the problem.

I'm sure that someone who does know more will pipe in soon.

Lysodren does not wear off over the night like Trilostane (Vetoryl) can. Lysodren is just reaching its peak at 48 hours after the dose.

Hang in there, Mom. Kim has given some great comments and I am looking forward to seeing those tests along with her.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Donna:
Hoping Astro is better today, and that you find your way on this journey. It is not easy, but it can be done. Keep the faith and educate yourself, you will be Astro's best chance of making it thru this. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Checking in on you and Astro. Hope things are going better.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

I was just wondering what is going on with Astro we haven't heard from you? Blessings
Patti