PDA

View Full Version : Tobisan - Shiba Inu just diagnosed



Tobisan's Mommy
04-09-2013, 11:38 AM
Hi folks,
I was hoping I could get some feedback from folks with more experience with Cushings as my husband and I are feeling a little overwhelmed with information and ideas. -please forgive the long explanation!

Our Tobisan is a rescued Shiba Inu - we adopted him just over 3 years ago and there was a whole lot of controversy at the time about exactly how old he was - so we're not really certain how old he is now. (he was a surrender with no info) -his age was estimated at the time to be anywhere from 4y/o to 8y/o depending on who you spoke to - based on our observations of him we guessed 6y/o at the time, which would make him about 9y/o now.

For as long as he's been with us he's been a low energy dog - sleeps a lot, doesn't play much with traditional dog toys but will sit and chew on a bone for a nice long time, or work to figure out one of those hidden treat puzzles until he's found every treat.

He had a number of health issues when he first joined our family, that sort of came up one at a time -first we realized that he was a very picky eater -refusing to eat a number of different food choices for more then a few bites, and was a bit under weight - which lead to us discovering that when his stomach was empty he would vomit bile, which lead to him refusing to eat- creating a viscous cycle. So we worked simultaneously on trying to find food he would eat well and getting him on stomach meds. (omeprazole worked best for him and that's what he's still on)

This lead to us realizing that he had a swallowing issue. If you filled his water bowl he drank super fast and choked himself, gave him too large of a chewy type treat and he had to work for a significant period of time to get it swallowed (licking at the air to work at swallowing) - and during allergy season it got profoundly worse to the point that he'd gag while trying to swallow and heaving up mucus. After discussions with our regular vet and a visit to a specialist he was diagnosed with some damage to his throat (probably from the repeated bile regurgitation) and he was placed on half a benedryl tablet twice a day and we where advised to control the amount of water in his bowl at any given time as well as to make sure that he got small pieces of chewy treats that where more manageable. The combination of these things has gotten us to a point where he does occasionally have to lick at the air a little to get something down, but we haven't had any gagging or mucus regurgitation in two years. The specialist also attributed his snoring to this throat damage.

Then we addressed his low energy levels with his regular vet. On the blood panel his thyroid levels came back borderline low, so they put him on 0.3 mg of Tyroxine and his levels came back up to the normal range - his energy levels haven't really changed, but we've maintained the dose and test periodically.

We where aware that he had a mildly luxating patella in his right hind leg - and then one night in November 2011 he went to jump onto the bed like he did every night, and on takeoff tore both cruciate ligaments in his left hind knee. We did surgery- with absolutely 100% perfect results (thanks in part to the fact that he's not a super active dog I guess!) and started him on Dasuquin for the initial problem knee. He walks with no limp at all now.

However - the fur came back over the incision first, and came back increadibly slowly over the rest of the area that was shaved for surgery - never returning to his belly or his left hind buttock. We had spoken to our vet about this and he recommended adding flaxseed oil to his diet to try and stimulate the fur growth. We had some mild success - but his belly is still bare.

Then 3 months ago we noticed that he had some fur loss in odd patterns on his snout, exposing black skin underneath - we thought he was rubbing at it and discussed with our vet whether it might be an allergic issue - taking him off food with any grains in it and watching whether he rubbed excessively at his snout. We saw no change at all to this area of alopecia. Our vet then sent us to a Canine Dermatologist.

The Canine Dermatologist noticed some small amount of thinning in his fur on his sides as well as a papery texture to the exposed skin on his belly and suspected Cushings- recommending testing. We did a CBC/chemistry/T4/FT4. His AST(SGOT) came back low at 13, his Alk Phosphatase came back high at 390, and his Lipase came back high at 969 - everything else tested normal. We also did a Urinalysis which showed no issues.

He recommended that we do an 8 hour low dose Dex - which we then did. His Cortisol tested at 5.1 initially, then at 4 hours it tested at 4.4 and at 8 hours at 5.0.

Our vet is suggesting that we now start Lysodren treatment, and if it doesn't give us good results then we look to do an Ultrasound. Based on the experiences those of you who have dealt with, or are dealing with this - does that seem to be a reasonable way to proceed?

Thank you,
~M

frijole
04-09-2013, 01:34 PM
I'm at work so I will be brief. I would NOT begin treating for cushings with lysodren yet for many reasons. This disease is very often misdiagnosed and you have to conduct more than one test to confirm it. The test you had done (LDDS) can have false positives if other issues are going on.

Your alk phos levels are not very high - cush dogs are usually in the thousands. Cush dogs don't have eating problems - they eat like pigs and are over weight/chubby and usually drink tons of water - you did not mention these symptoms. They are the main ones. Losing hair is a sign of cushing's but many other things. Cush dog pant alot and are restless/hyper in the evenings which doesn't sound like your dog at all. (they have high cortisol)

Lastly - even if your dog did have cushing's I wouldn't recommend lysodren if vomiting food is an issue - it can be harsh on the tummy and vomiting is a sign of overdose so you wouldn't know if the dog was just sick or overdosing.

In short - there is no rush to treat cushings. It is NOT a death sentence. Rushing to treat and diagnose is a bigger issue. We see it a lot.

I think your dermotologist vet thought of cushings due to the skin issues but frankly I think they are off course. Your regular vet probably just doesn't have a ton of experience in treating cushing's which is why they aren't questioning these things. If I did anything I would get the ultrasound or have the acth test done. But I am pretty sure something else is causing the issues. Kim

doxiesrock912
04-09-2013, 03:24 PM
M-
Kim is 100% correct. Seek the advice of an IMS (internal medicine specialist) specialist. They know much more than a general vet when it comes to multiple health issues especially.

Tobisan's Mommy
04-09-2013, 04:19 PM
Thank you both for replying.
Tobisan does pant a lot - and he will always drink any water you put in front of him as quickly as he possibly can (which is why we continued to meter it out to him regularly in smaller portions because of the added issue of his choking/swallowing issues)

We recently switch Tobisan to a frozen raw diet, and he now gobbles down his food, which may simply be that we finally hit on something he likes. His weight is good, and has been for over 2 years now, fluctuating only about a pound in either direction (right around 37lbs, which is enormous for a Shiba, but he's a tall boy and not "fat")

I see what you're saying about the alk phos levels... more to think about!

molly muffin
04-09-2013, 08:38 PM
Hello and welcome from me too.

I actually second everything that kim said too, but one of the first things that caught my eye is the high lipase levels. I don't recall that as being a typical elevation for pure cushings episodes. I'd get that checked out further I think. This one site that I found that talks specifically about Lipase levels. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/lipase-levels-in-dogs.html

So, I'd get that looked out more thoroughly, because coat thinning and problems is one symptom of cushings but it is also a symptom when other things go off inside the body. Just as with humans, a problem will often show in hair/nails.

Tricky treating with lysodren if he has problems with vomiting, tummy issues.

Some of the others will be by to say hello and comment too. I just want to welcome you to the forum and we'll be right here as we try to get to the bottom of what is going on with tobisan.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

frijole
04-09-2013, 08:56 PM
Sharlene, Thanks for mentioning that! I meant to and totally forgot to type it. That is the other reason I think something else is going on. Kim

molly muffin
04-09-2013, 09:05 PM
Kim, doesn't Lipase normally signify a possible problem with the pancreas? I always think of that first with lipase levels off.
In addition, I just would also mention to you that if something else is going on then that could skewer any cushing test results.
Have you had an ultrasound yet? A look at the liver, adrenal glands, kidneys, pancrease, gall bladder might be in order.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

frijole
04-09-2013, 10:21 PM
Pancreas is what came to mind but that link you posted mentioned lots of other possibilities so I'd take a look and research the other items just to see if anything else stands out. What did we do before google?!!!! Kim

labblab
04-10-2013, 09:43 AM
Hello and welcome!

I definitely agree with Kim and Sharlene that I would not yet be ready to leap into Lyosdren treatment, especially given Tobisan's history of esophageal issues. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate in that I do think it's possible that Tobisan does indeed have Cushing's. In recent years, it seems as though more and more cases are being first identified by dermatologists after having been referred due to the kinds of skin and coat issues you are describing. Due to the pattern of hair loss, if Tobisan's thyroid level is now testing normal with his supplementation, then Cushing's would be one of the next issues you'd suspect (plus, dogs with Cushing's commonly exhibit decreased thyroid levels as a secondary consequence). Also, dogs with Cushing's are more vulnerable to cruciate injuries. Even though his ALKP is not sky-high, it is indeed elevated, and Cushpups are also more vulnerable to pancreatic inflammation (the elevated lipase). Factor in his eagerness to drink and eat plus a strongly elevated LDDS, and I do understand why Cushing's is a strong suspect for tying together all these "loose" abnormalities.

But for the very reason Kim cited -- the throat/gastric issues -- I don't think I'd want to leap into a Lysodren load. There is a fairly fresh debate going on right now among specialists as to whether or not to intervene with Cushing's in the absence of strong overt symptoms. On the one hand, without those symptoms, I think the accuracy of the diagnosis always remains in doubt. But some of the newer practitioners are advocating for more early intervention so as to minimize the risks of longterm systemic damage.

In Tobisan's case, given his regurgitation issues, I would personally want to move a bit more slowly with things, I think. For instance, I'd probably opt to perform the ultrasound sooner rather than later in order to confirm the status of his adrenal glands and other internal organs. Plus, I'd probably ask that an ACTH test be performed. It is the other diagnostic Cushing's blood test in addition to the LDDS. Both tests have pluses and minuses, but the ACTH is less likely than the LDDS to register a "false positive" if Tobisan doesn't really have Cushing's. Also, it is the test that is used for periodic treatment monitoring after medical treatment is begun. As a result, I always think it's good to have a baseline measurement in place beforehand.

So these are just a few more thoughts to throw out for you to consider!

Marianne

Tobisan's Mommy
04-10-2013, 10:27 AM
Thank you all so much for your feedback!
I had a long talk with our primary vet last night - and he agrees that we can afford to take this slowly. When I expressed concerns about the LDDS possible false positive he also suggested that we do a cortisol/creatinine ratio Urinalysis because if the LDDS test was a false positive then this test should come out negative and support our desire to just wait and retest at a future date.

We're doing that test today (actually my husband is enroute to the Vet with the sample as I type!) -- we'll decide from there if we're going to do the ultrasound... though there do seem to be other valid reasons for doing it besides a possible Cushings confirmation.

labblab
04-10-2013, 12:02 PM
Just wanted to warn you, though, that the UC:CR is also vulnerable to elevation for other nonadrenal reasons, too, just like the LDDS. So if it comes out negative, that will be interesting info. But if it also comes out elevated (which seems more likely), you still are left wondering. Of the three tests, I believe the ACTH is the one that is most "specific" in terms of Cushing's testing, meaning it is less likely to come back positive if a dog does not truly have the disease.

Marianne

Tobisan's Mommy
04-12-2013, 10:57 AM
So our hopes of a negative result from the UC:CR have been dashed - our vet just called and Tobisan measured at 206. So we still don't know for certain that it's Cushings- but I guess we do know that it's less likely that the LDDS was a false positive.

goldengirl88
04-13-2013, 09:30 AM
Hello;
Just wanted to say Hi and welcome you and your baby to the forum. This is the palce to get all the help and information you need to care for your baby. I too am having throat and mucus issues with my dog. Sticking her tongue out and trying to clear her throat, sort of a congested gurgly sound in the throat, swallowing hard, and squeaky like noises when she drinks. She does have some narrowing of the trachea, and has had acid reflux in the past. I am taking her on the 26th to an IMS to see exactly what is causing this and what can safely be done at her age of 11. I hope all goes well with your baby. God Bless.
Patti

Budsters Mom
04-17-2013, 06:47 PM
Hello and welcome from me too,:)

You have come to the right place! There is a huge arsenal of K9Cushing's angels to help and stay with you every step of the way. They love details, test results, any information you can get your hands on. The more the better. Thank you for all the information you have already provided. That helps us help you.

So again welcome to you and Tobisan,

Kathy and Buddy:)

Tobisan's Mommy
04-19-2013, 02:35 PM
Hey folks,
an online friend of mine who also has Shiba Inus, and has dealt with Cushing's and other endocrine issues recommended I take a look at the Hilton Herb Vitex Plus formula (http://www.hiltonherbsusa.com/products/canine-vitex-plus-formerly-cush-x-/480)

Our vet likes the idea of treating with a gentle homeopathic method and said that while he doesn't have personal experience with this sort of treatment for Cushings, he's heard very good things about helping dogs with endocrine issues using many of the ingredients listed. (Contains: Vitex agnus castus seed, Goats rue herb, Bilberry fruit, Artichoke leaf, Milk Thistle seed, Golden rod herb, Burdock root)

Anyone here have any experience with this?

Squirt's Mom
04-19-2013, 02:51 PM
I haven't but it sounds interesting. The milk thistle will help with the liver, both detoxifying and with function. Artichoke can also help with the liver and it seems it does have some benefit for Cushing's but I'd have to look it up. Squirt has been using Burdock Root for several years now to boost the immune system and it also has benefits for the liver. Goldenrod is a wonderful herb with many uses but I have not heard it being used with Cushing's. I harvest it from the wild around here and make tinctures, oils and salves with it for a variety of things - including allergy treatment. Folks think they are allergic to Goldenrod but that is actually a very rare allergy. They are usually allergic to plants that grow with Goldenrod like Ragweed. GR pollen is very heavy and sticky so it doesn't fly around in the air but other air-born pollens will stick to it's pollen as they float along, adding their allergens to the GR pollen. The other ingredients I am not familiar with at all but will look them up for you and let you know what I find.

Squirt's Mom
04-19-2013, 02:52 PM
A quick look at the site and it says "formerly Cush X"....a HUGE red flag right off the bat. :(

labblab
04-19-2013, 03:11 PM
Hey folks,
an online friend of mine who also has Shiba Inus, and has dealt with Cushing's and other endocrine issues recommended I take a look at the Hilton Herb Vitex Plus formula (http://www.hiltonherbsusa.com/products/canine-vitex-plus-formerly-cush-x-/480)

Our vet likes the idea of treating with a gentle homeopathic method and said that while he doesn't have personal experience with this sort of treatment for Cushings, he's heard very good things about helping dogs with endocrine issues using many of the ingredients listed. (Contains: Vitex agnus castus seed, Goats rue herb, Bilberry fruit, Artichoke leaf, Milk Thistle seed, Golden rod herb, Burdock root)

Anyone here have any experience with this?
If you are asking about using an herbal product instead of a conventional prescription medication to treat Cushing's, I'm afraid we have not witnessed successful disease management here (as evidenced by objective lab results and full symptom resolution). It would be nice if they worked as well, but herbal supplements do not duplicate the same physiological benefit.

Marianne

doxiesrock912
04-19-2013, 03:38 PM
Our IMS at Cornell said the same thing. There are no scientific studies confirming that these herbs really help.

Tobisan's Mommy
04-19-2013, 04:44 PM
A quick look at the site and it says "formerly Cush X"....a HUGE red flag right off the bat. :(

Why is that a red flag? You think they changed the name because it didn't work for Cushings?

Squirt's Mom
04-19-2013, 04:52 PM
Cushex is the "holistic" product we most often see folks wanting to try, and many do - and they have to start traditional treatment after a bit because it is not effective. Cushex serves one purpose - to make the folks who make it rich by playing on the fears of cush parents. It has changed formulas several times.

I'm not sure if Cushex and Cush-X are the same thing - ie another change for Cushex - or if what you are looking at is different.