New to forum Tucker

[kskblake]

Hello!
I found this site today and haven't really had a chance to research yet, but I'm wondering if any dog owners are treating their pet's Cushings with holistic remedies only. My doxie, Tucker, has Cushings along with SARDS and has been diagnosed for six months. I currently have him on Vetoryl 30 mg twice daily. He was retested, and the vet has said the dosage is fine, but he has never stopped being extremely hungry, and he is still drinking a ton of water. We switched him to grain-free dog food also. I'm not happy with the Vetoryl. He gained about ten pounds, and he hasn't lost any weight either.

Thank you for any help

Kris

[labblab]

Hello and welcome to you and Tucker!

Can you please find out the actual test numbers for the monitoring ACTH's and also give us the dates when they were performed? I hate to tell you how many vets are unfamiliar with the target therapeutic results for Cushpups under treatment. The treatment goals are much lower than the "norms" that are printed on the lab results. So it may be the case that Tucker's cortisol is not yet really under adequate control.

Also, if you could tell us his weight and also the results of the diagnostic tests that identified the Cushing's, that would also be great. We know there are still a lot of unanswered questions about the relationship between SARDS and Cushing's, and that some dogs do go blind and temporarily exhibit Cushing's-like symptoms, but the Cushing's symptoms sometimes abate all on their own after a bit of time. Whereas, some dogs do end up being formally diagnosed with Cushing's when the symptoms persist. Did Tucker exhibit the Cushing's symptoms prior to his blindness, or did it all seem to happen at the same time? Any additional info you'd care to share will be very helpful to us.

Also, I'd love to tell you that Cushing's can be managed successfully with natural remedies alone, but that has not been our experience here. Assuming Tucker truly has Cushing's, I don't believe you will see overall improvement in his symptoms unless the elevated cortisol is effectively addressed. If it turns out that trilostane is not working as you'd wish, you may want to consider Lysodren as an alternative. That is the other drug that is most effective in Cushing's treatment. But we are putting the cart ahead of the horse -- it'll help so much to see those monitoring ACTH results.

Marianne

[kskblake]

Marianne,

Thank you for your quick reply. I have to find the paperwork for his results, so if you could give me a day or so, I will let you know. He is also due to go back in for tests again, so I will have to get those results also. He has had two tests total, one when they diagnosed him and one when he was on the medicine for a little while.

Unfortunately, he is about 30 to 31 pounds. He is not a mini, he is a standard, but he should at least be about ten pounds lighter. I feel bad about this.

He definitely had the symptoms before he went blind, but we didn't really figure it out until after he became blind, so we noticed he was gaining weight and drinking a lot of water first, and then one day he couldn't see any longer.

As soon as I find the paperwork, I will let you know what his results were.

Thank you again,

Kris

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

Hi Kris...From one Doxie owner to another I wanted to welcome you and Tucker to the site. Norman is around 24 -26 pounds, our Vet also suggested trying to decrease his food intake, no scraps! He is suppose to be a mini...but out grew that super fast as a pup. He is a gluton with his food or anyones.:eek:
I am sorry to say if Tucker as cushings there is no natural cure. Norman is on 30 mg trilostane capsules...most likely he will have to go up to 40mg as he still wakes at night, urine still somewhat diluted, appetitie high, belly flucutates, hair loss about the same. With Tuckers weight I am going to say he most likey should be on a higher dose...but that depends on his ACTH test...others who are more experienced can help decifer this and your other questions...I'm relatively new, Norman was just diagnosed in Dec after a few months of symptoms.

Wising you and Tucker the best.

Sharon, Norman (cushings doxie) and Millie (mini, yorkie-pooh)

[kskblake]

Marianne,
I went home and looked for the results of his testing, and I don't think I ever received copies. I have blood tests that he had run the first time I took him in. My husband is taking him for his third test this Thursday, and I will ask for a copy of all three. Here is what was high on his blood testing. ALT 124 U/L and ALKP 360 U/L. I have no idea what those two things are. The headings on the tests they took before they did the ACTH
ProCyte DX
Catalyst DX
VetLyte
Boy, I have no clue what I'm looking at. I feel bad for not knowing. If these aren't what you're asking for, I will definitely get them on Thursday. I will come back on as soon as I know something and let you know.

Sharon, thank you for the welcome. I really appreciate it. I will find out after Thursday how he's doing. I have to wake up at 3:00 and give him his pill because he's going for his testing at 8:00 in the morning. My doxie is a double dapple. He has beautiful blue eyes. You can tell they've changed since he's gone blind. I think I really feel worse because I know he's hungry and I'm trying the best I can to limit his food intake. As I said, I do have him on grain-free, but then when I started that, all my other dogs (I have four altogether) wanted the same food, so I'm going through a bag of very expensive dog food every two weeks.

[Simba's Mom]

Welcome to you and Tucker, I also have a doxie... Simba is a mini but weighs around 20 pounds or so. He takes 25mg of trilostane daily...

This is a great place to be with all of the knowledgeable people and they have such huge hearts too, no question is too big or too small.. So settle in and get comfortable, we are all in this together..

[molly muffin]

Welcome to the forum Kris and Tucker:)

When you or your husband goes into the vet, ask for copies of all his test results, blood, urinalysis, ACTH from before and during treatment and just start keeping your own file. You're going to want that to be able to compare values and see where he is at.
ACTH, you're looking for a base or Pre result and a post result. If you are in the US then this will probably be in UG and look something like this

ACTH
pre - 3.1
Post 7.9
As an example, it may not be exact and if you aren't in the US and they nmol, it'll be numbers likely in the hundreds.

ALT and ALP numbers are for liver enzymes. With cushings dogs we'll often see ALKP numbers much higher than Tukers are now.
It does sound like this post number isn't where it should be. Dechra recommends a post result, optimally under 5, and can be under 9 if symptoms are controlled, which they don't seem to be. There should have been an ACTH test done 14 days after beginning treatment and another at the 30 day mark. At that time, you'd know if the current dosage is working or if it needs to be adjusted.

So, grab those test results and lets see what is going on with Tucker.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[kskblake]

Well, I just couldn't wait until tomorrow's test to see what Tucker's results were, so I had them faxed

On 8/8/12 his pre-ACTH cortisol was 25.0. His post on that same day was 32.6

Retested on 9/13/12. Pre was 4.1. Post was 5.6.

Please let me know what you think. I will let you know after tomorrow what his latest test says.

Thank you

Kris

[molly muffin]

Those results are showing that the vetroyl is working at least. It will be interesting to see what the latest result is, since you said he is still extremely hungry.
Anything post below 9 is fine if the symptoms are controlled. Not sure if Tuckers is controlled or not. Sometimes you need to go to a twice a day dosing for full control all day long. Other times depending on if there has been a bounce in cortisol levels or what is going on, then perhaps a dosage adjustment needs to be made.
Did they also do tests to check electrolytes and anything else or just an ACTH test?

Hang in there!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi Kris
I treated with Trilostane in December and stopped in February. I did not want to go the lysodren route. I started treating my maltese Feb 28 holistically. Homemade diet also. I have a thread on the site if you want to read about it. If you have any questions after reading it let me know and I'll answer the best I can. Right now my pup is doing good. Panting, drinking, peeing, appetite all decreased. Energy up. I don't know what his bloodwork numbers are because I haven't tested him yet. Not until beginning of April when I'll test liver among other things. I won't be doing anymore acth tests because treating holistically will not bring down cortisol. So far so good but long term i have no idea what will happen. There doesn't seem to be any studies on it. I take one day at a time and everyone must do what they think is best for them. I hope you can get Tucker feeling better

[kskblake]

Got Tucker's results for yesterday's test. Pre was 3.4, post was 3.5. I have definitely noticed lately his thirst level has decreased. I just have to work on his weight. Last year in February he was 23 pounds. Now he is 32. Ugh. Anyway, I thought last night I would try something new, and he seemed to like it. As you know, he is blind, so I played a game with him and took some food and threw one or two pieces at a time. He has great hearing, and his sniffer was in overdrive. He found every piece. This way it took him a little longer to eat, and I cut his bowl down by a quarter cup, and he didn't even miss it. My goal is to slowly get his weight back down to at least 25.

[lulusmom]

Hi Kris,

Those numbers are music to my ears....perfect! The one thing I want to mention to you is that dogs with SARDS can have transient elevations in cortisol that normalize over a period of months. It may be that Tucker is a dog with SARDS that truly does have cushing's but if it were me, I'd keep a close eye on him. If his cortisol does normalize on it's own, it could drop too low with treatment.

It sounds like you have worked out a slick way to deal with the over eating and getting Tucker some needed exercise. I'm a rescuer and am a real push over for blind dogs so I've had many come through my doors. The one thing they all have in common is mucho acute hearing and smell. The other senses go into overdrive to make up for the one that was lost. One of our members, Leslie, has a little blind girl who I swear has sonar. She never bumps into anything and even though both eyeballs were removed, most people don't know she's blind unless Leslie tells them.

[kskblake]

Thank you for that info. It's been a learning experience for sure, but he amazes me every day. I did the game again tonight and he loves it. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.

Can you let me know what I should look for if he is normalizing on his own and he is getting too much medicine? I really have noticed that he has finally stopped panting and is not drinking nearly as much, which makes me have hope that I can get the weight down.

Have a good weekend and thank you again. I've had dogs for 30 years and not one has been blind.

[Harley PoMMom]

Signs of a dog's cortisol dropping too low are: lethargy, vomiting, diarrhea, and/or the dog just not acting them-self.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

I'm the mom with the blind babies - Trinket (with sonar! :D) and Brick, who goes full-tilt in his dark world crashing into things. :rolleyes: I have a bubble-wrapped house as a result! :p

Your game with the feed is a GREAT idea and one your boy may really enjoy on a regular basis. It is difficult finding ways to keep them stimulated since they can see to play like usual. Using their other senses of hearing, smell, and touch will help. There is a toy called a Babble Ball that makes sounds when it moves. I got one for my babies and neither one was interested in it at all but I gave it to a friend who's senior is losing her sight and she LOVES it!

Some tricks I have learned - keep things in the same place at all times, inside and out. If you have to move something to clean, etc., move it back where it was asap. Look for things he can run into that will injure his eyes (Brick still has his eyes;Trink doesn't). Remove or cover those things so they can't harm Tucker. I keep sticks in the yard picked up so they can't poke their faces. Keep water and food bowls in the same place. I use rugs all over the house for Brick who is more tactilly oriented - he knows where he is by what his feet feel. So his food and water bowl sit on one type rug; there are others throughout the house with different naps to let him know he is close to his box where he sleeps, where the front door is, the bathroom he likes to hang out in, and so on. Some folks use different scents for different areas to help their blind babies orient and find their way around. For a while I wore bells on my ankles so they could always know where I was. That interfered with some of my other actives that sustain me so I developed a habit I have always hated in others - dragging my feet when I walk. And....I talk to myself alllll the time. When we are outside or walking on a lead in a strange place, I am either talking to them non-stop or singing so they know where I am and to follow. I had a ramp built off the porch so they can come and go as they please without fear of falling. Trink will do steps very, very cautiously as long as I am there to tell her each step either "up!" or "down!" Brick just sails right off. :p

My itty bitty ones are completely blind but they are not handicapped. They are happy and engaged in their world. They each have their own ways of playing and interacting with the rest of the gang - two who are sighted, tho one is blind in one eye and the others sight is failing due to old age. Our babies typically adjust to the loss of their sight much better than we parents do. ;) Be patient and most importantly, listen to Tucker. He will help you more than anything else to guide you in ways to help him. What I mean by this - I had a deaf and blind Dane a long time ago who taught me how to communicate with her via vibrations. She taught me to bang on the floor, the walls, the ground or turn on things like the dishwasher - and those things told her what I was saying...but SHE taught ME. ;)

You're doing a wonderful job, Mom! Keep up the good work!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh! The Babble Balls!

http://stores.babble-ball.com/StoreFront.bok

[kskblake]

Harley,

Thank you for the info.

Leslie,

Tucker has been blind for seven months, and the beginning was heartbreaking because he was running into things, but he has adapted so well. He used to run into the wall getting in the house because of the stoop, but he knows exactly how to navigate it now. I never picked him up to get in because I knew he wouldn't learn to do it. Your advice is very helpful. I really appreciate it. We have a doggie door in the back room, and he loves to lay in the sun. I was worried he would not know how to get in and out, but I've witnessed him do it when I'm home.
I also joined the Yahoo SARDS group. Do you have any dogs with SARDS? I've been very fortunate with the Cushings in that he has only had accidents in the house about two times. He must have a very good bladder or he using the doggie door.
You have such a big heart taking care of blind babies. Having one is hard. I have a total of four dogs, and only Tucker is blind. I am becoming even more attached to him now than ever.
I'm so appreciative for this group. :). I will look into the toy you mentioned.

[Squirt's Mom]

No SARDS. Trinket had glaucoma and Brick has Hydrocephalus. They are both itty bitty ones - Brick weighs 4.1 lbs, and Trink is a hefty 6.2 lbs - she is on a diet. :p The steps are a huge issue for them due to their size plus Brick's little legs are gimpy anyway and he has little coordination so I can just see him shattering on the way down steps. :eek::( So for my peace of mind and their safety, a ramp seemed to be best. Plus, I'm a klutz and there was a real possibility of me falling down the steps while carrying them. That would be a disaster!

I'm glad to hear that Tucker is adjusting so well. Using the dogging door is wonderful! :) Hope the SARDS group is beneficial to you both.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[kskblake]

Aw, they are little. How cute. I put some pictures in my album of three of my pups. The fourth is also a doxie, the only girl. I didn't have any pictures of her on my phone.

Kris and Tucker

[kskblake]

I have another question. I called a pharmacy that compounds medicine, and they said they could compound for me. He quoted $50 for a box of 30mg tablets. I'm a little nervous going the compounding route. Has anyone else gone the compounding route for Vetoryl? Thank you.

Kris and Tucker

[molly muffin]

Love the pictures!

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[kskblake]

Thank you, Sharlene and Molly Muffin. :)

[Harley PoMMom]

I have another question. I called a pharmacy that compounds medicine, and they said they could compound for me. He quoted $50 for a box of 30mg tablets. I'm a little nervous going the compounding route. Has anyone else gone the compounding route for Vetoryl? Thank you.

Kris and Tucker

Here's a link to a thread in which members do post about compounding pharmacies that they use: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385&highlight=compounding+pharmacies

[kskblake]

Thank you. I read the info. The pharmacy I am going to try is local. He quoted $50 for 30mg. I have to see how many pills that is. I forgot to ask him. I usually get a two-week supply. I saw some online for $44, so I'm going to see if he will take $45.