Jack Russell with Cushings.

[helena]

Hi, I am new to here and from searching the net I was led here! Im hoping that someone might be able to help me with a few answers... it feels a lonely place with your best friend suffering and no one really understanding.
I think in many ways my dog seems 'atypical' in her symptoms.

My little Jack Russell now aged 12, first presented with different symptoms in October 2011. She seemed weaker in her back legs and from being an extremely bouncy, she was unable to jump into the jeep, and her nose was incredibly dry. Nothing else.
I took her to the vet and he said he thought it to be arthritis, she was given Glucosamine.
(thinking back of course, both of these could easily have been symptoms of excessive Cortisol)
Then, several months later, the weakness progressing slowly her belly became the typical 'pot belly.' I thought she might be pregnant, she most definitely looked it. She got scanned and there was nothing to be seen, so she had her food cut down.
Time went on until in June, I was out in the car with some shopping in the boot (namely some frozen fish) I had to stop to pick up my daughter, she jumped into the boot and ravaged the frozen fish!! She had always been a picky eater and such a skinny nervous sort of dog who didnt wish to eat. I had to put her away from the other dogs because she would happily let them eat her food.

I returned to the Vet, I thought maybe she had a thyroid problem because her coat was so brittle and becoming sparse on her neck/belly.
She had two lots of blood tests and was confirmed as 'Cushingoid.'
She was started on 10mgs of Vetoryl, at first it seemed to do some good but then reading up about possible side effects I then found the Homeopathic remedy as per a vet in UK.
I might add that at no point had she been drinking more water and still hasnt, neither did she or has she been urinating more frequently.

I took her to see a wonderful Homeopathic vet who said that often a dog will present with the problems the owner is suffering, which was interesting seeing that I had gone through extreme relentless stress and trauma from the time she was born. She had also been my shadow, never left my side and seemed to take on my problems, people would comment on it and laugh at this little dog literally 'stuck' to me!
He put her on various things, cortisone and acht, then quertus plus various herbs. To start with, things were looking brilliant, her belly went down 5 cms, her liver seemed to be decreasing in size. She was also on vitamins and minerals and the raw food diet.
I was delighted.... but then one night she started panting and shivering, admittedly I was under extreme pressure, and though I tried not to show it in front of the animals she took it onboard and once again suffered (apologies I might sound like a nutcase here)

The Homeopath tried several things, she wasnt bad but certainly not improving, so I had some Vetoryl left and he said she might start it again. Things got slightly better, then worse..her breathing more rapid and snoring, terrible 'throaty' snoring! She also twitches when sleeping, to some extent she always has but its more pronounced now.
She had more blood tests and found to need to be increased to 20, then 30 and two weeks ago she is on 40mgs daily.
I decided to ask the Vet if I could give it in a divided dose and thats what is now happening. She is getting no better, no worse though I have noticed she is getting some of the hair back on her belly.

She is so lethargic though, has no real spark apart from when I feed her, the little dog that was attached to my hip seems to sleep most of the day. Im certain its the Vetoryl that is doing this.. before she had the last increase , she was starting to follow me about, but the tests showed that 30mgs was not suppressing the Adrenals.

I would be so, so grateful if anyone can throw any light on this for me. Vets here dont seem to know much about this problem and I dont know where to turn to with it. Its got to a stage where Im hardly sleeping from listening to the dog's rapid breathing and snoring... Im not complaining but it scares the life out of me.
I wonder if Im keeping her alive for me or her? She doesnt seem to be in pain or any real distress but the lethargy is awful.
I was delighted to read some of the thread about the Jack Russell snoring and I think I might sleep better tonight!!
Thank you for reading..
Helena

[Trish]

Hi Helena

YAY you found us, now you are going to get loads of help sorting out your little Jack Russell... what's her name??

Wow she has beent through a lot, but I am pretty sure our knowledgeable members are going to be able to help you to get her stablilised.

I do know they are going to ask you a few of the standard questions when new members appear, namely:

List the tests she has had done, include all blood, urine results but just type in the abnormal tests and date they were done. Also make sure to add in the unit measured and normal lab reference ranges. Has she had an ultrasound done as that would be helpful. Also what is her weight so they can look at the appropriate dosage. She does have some sign of cushings, but no excessive thirst is a bit odd. My boy was like that, no thirst or excessive peeing, in the end the tests showed he had an adrenal tumour that was not actually affecting his cortisol so when diagnosing cushings they have to be careful it is not something else, as the symptoms can most definitely mimic other things like thyroid disease. Has she had thyroid blood tests?

I don't think natural remedies and herbs have proven too successful in the treatment of cushings either, but lets get all those results in and the experts here will be able to help your sweet girl get her mojo back!!

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[helena]

Thankyou Trish!
My little dog is called Piglett and she is 12 years old now. I might add that Im in Ireland and not in USA, so there is not too much at hand here.
I dont know the results of the tests, though I can ask.
No she has never had urine tests.
She had Dexamethasone tests and also ACHT several times, this has been used to ascertain how much Vetoryl she needs (sorry, this all might sound slightly primative and maybe is)
I was told that it was Cushings and therefore no need to do thyroid...though I shall check with them.
Ive felt like Im going in circles with all this so far, different Vets and no experts(though Im not criticising them)
I can get an ultra sound done and there is a lady who is able to do it here, its highly expensive and when I asked, the Vets said that there seemed little need to do it as the treatment would be the same.
I felt at the time that if I could find the correct cause, it might be the obvious thing to do.
I adore this little thing and want to do everything I can for her.
Because Ive been searching for so long to find answers and finding nothing that fits, I feel exhausted and pretty desperate :(

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Helena,

Welcome to you and your sweet girl, so sorry for the reasons that brought you to us but very glad you found your way here.

Like Trish has mentioned, it would help us a great deal if you could post the results of all tests that were done on your girl and post any abnormalities that are listed along with the reference ranges and units of measurment...e.g.ALT 150U/L (5-100)...Thanks!! We are especially interested in the results from any Cushing's tests such as an ACTH stimulation, LDDS, or UC:CR.

Has your girl had her blood pressure checked recently? Is she taking any other herbs/supplements/medicines? How much does your girl weigh?

Please know you are not alone on this journey as we are here to help in any way we can.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[helena]

Hi Lori,
She had a GA two weeks ago to have her teeth cleaned, everything checked out well but I didnt ask what her Bp was.
I can find out.
She is currently having the raw food diet which seems to suit her, also she has a Gold Liquid multivitamin and mineral complex 30mls a day and UDO's for dogs, 1 teaspoon daily.
This was per the Homeopathic vet (also a general vet)

I have so far gone with exactly what has been ordered by Vets, not asked enough questions possibly, of that I am guilty. I just want my dog back!

[Trish]

Helena

Ohhh I love Ireland, always wanted to visit there!! Pigletts test do not sound primitive, the acth and dex tests are pretty standard, esp the acth for mointoring the drugs. Ring and ask the vets to print out all her results for you to collect then we can make a start on seeing where she is right now. It might be that a visit to a specialist/IMS vet is in order but let all the experts have a look first :) you are here because you are worried and want to do the best for your girl... go YOU!

[labblab]

Hello and welcome from me, too!

I'm so glad you and Piglett have made your way to us! Trish and Lori have already given you great welcomes, so I just have a couple of things to add.

First off, the Dex and ACTH testing is exactly what we are used to, so no worries at all as to their appropriateness. However, we've learned from experience that vets in the UK and Ireland are less likely to tell owners the direct numerical test results, so you may have to do some "asking" in order to get that information :o. The dates and numbers will be immensely helpful, though, because that will help us to sort out the Vetoryl dosing.

Even before you get those numbers, may I ask how long Piglett stayed at each dosing level prior to the increase two weeks ago? Also, when you say you are splitting the dose, does this mean you are physically opening up capsules and giving Piglett the powder in some way? If so, that may be creating some problems in its own right -- the manufacturer specifically warns against doing so.

Thanks again for the answers you will be giving us, and once again, welcome to you and your dear girl.

Marianne

[helena]

There is not a lot more for me to add at this stage without consulting the Vet tomorrow.
She stayed on the 10 mgs for a month and then had more tests...increased to 20mgs and she was then on this for maybe a month? Im afraid I just dont recall because life has been very stressful for all of us.
We were under threat of being homeless you see!
She had no tests for a while, when she was on the Homeopathic remedies.
She then went back onto 20mgs for a while, had another Acth test and put up to 30mgs about 2 months ago.
She weighed 7.9 kgs at this stage. I measure her abdomen from time to time and its 52cms.
She went up to 40mgs two weeks ago.

[labblab]

Thanks so much for this added info, and absolutely, it sounds as though you've had an awful lot to have to deal with!!!

Tell me about "splitting" the dose, though -- how are you doing that?

Marianne

[helena]

Hi Marianne,
Yes the splitting.
The dose is 20mgs twice a day.
Extremely expensive!!

[milosmom]

just read your story helena and i wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that you have found the place to get answers to your questions.this is a fabulous forum with lots of love,support and truly concerned dog lovers !!! so we are all here anxiously awaiting all your facts...welcome...patty(milo)meka xoxox

[addy]

Well I am here too to welcome you to our family and to make sure you know that we will all do our best to ease your stress and help figure things out for Piglet. You don't have to be exhausted or desperate any more because you are not alone anymore, okay?

Now it seems like Marianne thinks you may have to do some pestering and insisting to get those test results but we really need them so do your best.:):):)

We are so happy you found us and look forward to learning more about you and Piglet. My Zoe has been on Vetoryl for almost two years now. She does sleep more and being lethargic can be a side effect of Vetoryl but we want to make sure exactly where Piglet's cortisol is.
Zoe never drank buckets or peed all night either, but she eventually started needing to go out more during the day.

And yes our pups do feed off us so if we are stressed they can be stressed, if we are down, they can be as well. I know it is hard to stay positive when you are alone and feeling desperate and at your wits end but it will help Piglet.

Take a deep breath, try to relax, put it all in a drawer for the night and hopefully you will have good luck getting those ACTH test results and more:D:D:D:D:D

[helena]

Thank you to everyone who has answered to me, and I assure you that ridiculous as it sounds, its had me in tears! Its a bit like going out and hurting inside, having a big smile on your face until someone asks 'Are you ok?' Then it all floods out :)
Going to sleep now, Im so happy to read that other dogs have the same throaty snore going on at night.. in the nicest possible way!
Thanks....

[goldengirl88]

Hi Helena:
Welcome to the forum. I too have a Jack Russell with Cushings. I know what you mean about their back legs springing. My Tipper also has the throaty snoring. What I have gathered from research and talking to different Vets, this disease narrows the nasal passages. Since it turns muscle into fat etc. Tippers neck was so muscular, that everything on her Xray showed it turned to fat and the fat was pushing on her trachia. That is why the wierd sounds. This also enlarged her heart slightly. I am using as many good supplements as possible to support her heart etc. Read my thread to see them, it may help your dog. Also I use a vaporizer at night and it has helped her snoring, maybe you could try that as it moistens the breathing passages. I hope this helps you, and wish you and your precious baby good luck.

[helena]

Hi Golden girl,
Thankyou! That all makes so much sense, I have asked several vets now and its dismissed with no reasoning but what you have written really does add up.
I had to take her to the vet today, she has been scratching her stomach manically when I take her fleece off and she has small pustules, so ended up having an antibiotic injection. She is now knocked out lying next to me poor little mite.
I have her blood results now and I dont think anyone will be too impressed as theyre very basic, also no urine has been taken and no bp either!
On 05/june '12
T4 17mmol
Basal Cortisol 317mmol
Cortisol post ACTH 1228
cTSH 0.17

Na -PS 112mmol/l
K-PS 3.4
Ci-ps 74
TP-PS 6.5
ALB-PS 3.7
BUN-PS 8.3
CRE-PS 0.3
ALP-PS 127
GPT-PS 36 U/l
LDH-PS 62
TBIL-PS 0.5
Ca-PS 10.4
GLU-PS 89mg/d
TCHO-PS 261
TG-PS 86
AMYL-PS 356
vLIP-PS 136

Second reading 10/July '12

Basal Cortisol 214
Cortisol Post ACTH 513

I have to get the newest results from another Vet.

Her weight is 7.3 kg
Two months ago it was 6.9kgs

She hasnt been moving about too much over the past 3 weeks, its so muddy outside and Ive been encouraging her to keep out of the horses paddock and away from all the fowl because of the liquid mud! I think she has been putting on weight because of being lazy as much as anything else.

I got a great nights sleep last night ans so did my dog thankyou!! :)

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome from me too :)

Can you edit your post to add the range for the tests? Can you tall on the test for sure if that is mmol or if maybe it is nmol. If nmol, then the results would be as follows for ug which is what most are use to seeing on here (you divide the nmol number by 27.59)

05 June 2012
ACTH
Base (317 nmol) 11.48ug
POST (1228nmol) 44.50ug


10 July 2012
ACTH
Base (214nmol) 7.7ug
POST (513nmol) 18.5ug

What does of vetroyl was she on at the time of each of these tests? Have any further ACTH tests been done? I'm a bit concerned, because on the dose she was on the cortisol was dropping. If increases have continued to be given, without testing, then she can go the other way and decrease too much. It's a fine line and why multiple ACTH tests are needed.

We do have another member here currently active whos lab is on vetroyl, who is also in Ireland.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4753&highlight=ireland

How is the belly rash doing? Has that cleared up at all? Do they look like pimples, blackheads or scabby at all?

For the moment, can you get the ranges posted for us on your original post and just note the ones that out of range.

We are all here you, so you aren't alone. I know it's scary and there is a lot of unknowns for you, but we can help you to get this sorted out.

Sending you great big hugs,

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

Hi Helena,

Glad to hear you got a good night's sleep!!!:):)

I see Sharlene was typing while I was taking my Zoe out. Her question is the same as mine. So that second ACTH test we assume is in response to after you started Piglet on the 10mgs, her post was 18.5 you increased to 20 and now to 30mgs or was that after the 20mg increase?

I'm so glad you were able to get your test results without too much trouble:):):):) Now we just need to get all in order as far as post ACTH and dosage.

I hope you get another good night's sleep:) When we get a good night's sleep it really helps us stay positive.;););)

Give Piglet a hug and belly rub for me, okay?

[Trish]

Hi Helena

I hope Pigletts itchy spots settle with that antibiotic jab! Poor little mite, I hate to see them itching as it drives them mad! Wow a good nights sleep for both you, see what happens when you come on here... good things happen :)

I will be interested to see what all the experts here think once you have added in the reference ranges :D Hope another good sleep comes your way tonight, or its probably morning there already!

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

HI Helena

I missed your post yesterday or I would have been by to welcome you sooner! So glad you found us, but poor little Piglet, going through so much. :(

As you would have worked out by now, there are a heap of people here who will be able to offer advice and suggestions, see if they can help you sort everything out. All of us have been in the same boat at one time or another, wanting to do anything and everything for our best friends, so we completely understand the tears of relief and comfort at finding others with the same thoughts. I find myself laughing and crying within minutes of each other every time I visit here - even gave myself an eye infection last month from wiping my eyes so much to clear the tears - some happy some sad.

I do want to assure you though, there is light at the end of the tunnel. If may be a rocky road to get there, but when things start to work out, there is every possibility that little Piglet can live happily and comfortably, and that you will see the return of your vibrant little girl. Take a deep breath now and smile, you've found the help!

[helena]

Hi,
Im have a good few problems at the moment (car stolen last week) my daughter has electrical problems and had a bad shock off a melting plug today ...Only just off the phone to me now...so I havent yet managed to get the blood results from the other vet.
Thankyou for your help so far.
Her belly is red but then it would be from the scratching she is doing, yesterday she was sleeping so much and seems to go into a much deeper sleep now, not so 'on edge' as she was. I was so upset watching her yesterday but then today she has perked right up!
Its feels like a complete emotional roller coaster that Im on, however..since knowing that the breathing seems to be a common issue, I have slept through!! I feel like a complete paraoid person (I think I was making her worse!)
I have to try and get the results tomorrow and will try to get the other results in a form you might be able to translate.
Having looked at some of them, theyre quite low below the recommended levels which is odd because nothing was pointed out, but then maybe it is of little consequence.
Will be back :)

[molly muffin]

Oh Helena sorry that you've had all these problems in your life lately. It does take a toll doesn't it.

For the lab results you have already posted do you have what the normal ranges are? For anything that are low or high, you can skip the one that fall into normal.
Just push edit on the post with the results and then add the range in so it would look like this:

ALP-PS 127nmol (95 - 129) as an example.

Every lab is different and without the ranges we can't tell what is low or high or how off it is.
Things being low or high make a great deal of difference, so we want to know them all. :) We're just like that.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

No worries, Helena, we aren't going anywhere:):):):)

Sorry you are having such a hard time of it though.

[MBK]

Hi, Helena,

I just wanted to welcome you and Piglet. I have a Jack Russell named Alivia, with cushings, who will be 15 years old this month. It really is a roller coaster of emotions. My Ali has had many ups and downs. But, we all do the best we can for our babies and there is a lot of support here to help you through the lows.

Please post pictures of your little Piglet when you can. I'd love to see her!