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mom2macdougal
01-28-2013, 10:20 PM
Thank you google!! I was doing my research tonight and happened upon this forum. I've had a chance to browse some of the posts, and anxiously awaited validation of my account so I could post myself!

Mac turned 10 this year (happy birthday to my man!) About five years ago he started with excessive thirst, and I took him for blood work, thinking it was diabetes. Negative for that, and Cushings was not mentioned. I live in a fairly small community with no vet specialists. I'll be honest, after doing research I suspected Cushings, my vet suggested two other diseases, neither of which were curable. Economics figures in the picture, and we've had a great five years since that vet visit.

About a year ago Mac was at a different vet for his shots, and a discussion ensued about the issues of excessive thirst, shifting weight. This newer vet pretty much had the same suspicions as I did about Cushings. She told me what testing measures we could go through. By this time he is 9, and although it's a tough call, my decision has been as long as he's comfortable, loves playing ball, and truly lives for his morning walk, I was not going to pursue medical intervention. (PLEASE, don't judge me about this!)

Long story short, these last three weeks have been horrible! He eats like he's starving, pees and marks everything in the house, drinks two bowls of water every night, has lost what seems like an enormous amount of weight (bony spine, walking halter loose, can feel his ribs)..... all the while still seeming comfortable.

Does anyone have any insight into the actual progression and what signs to look for when it's "time"? I do plan on making a vet visit in the next few days to get her insight.

Gotta smile.... he just stole a pig ear from my son's dog, and is happily munching on it!!

Thanks for all encouragement and suggestions!!

mytil
01-28-2013, 10:33 PM
Hi and welcome to you and Mac, glad you found us.

Firstly, we are not here to judge - we are here to educate, support and share the enormous amount of knowledge each one of our members hold under their belts.

Here is a link that describes more about Cushing's, the testing and treatment. If you have not done so already, take a look. http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180. One test that is inexpensive is called a UC:CR test. It rules out Cushing's but does not formally diagnose it. It is a good first step.


(Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Ratio Test) Considered a screening test, this cannot diagnose Cushing's, but it can rule it out. A urine sample is examined for the relative amounts of cortisol versus a normally excreted protein metabolite, creatinine (the latter is used to control for the degree of dilution of the urine). The greater the ratio, the higher the cortisol level. High cortisol in urine is suggestive of high cortisol in the bloodstream. Many conditions other than Cushing's disease can cause false positives, so this test is not considered diagnostic. Nonetheless, if the cortisol/creatinine ratio is okay, the dog is not likely to be Cushingoid, so this is a good screening test.

The symptoms you mentioned (starving, increased thirst and urination) to point towards Cushing's. But, this type of dramatic weight lose does not commonly occur with Cushing's; nor does marking as your described. Has your vet tested the thyroid levels?

Has the new vet done a full blood panel yet? I know when I get this done it costs me about $100.

Dogs are masters at hiding pain and being uncomfortable so it may seem like he is fine, but actually he is stressed out and the continual hunger is uncomfortable.

Let us know more about any type of testing done to date. Also has he been checked for internal parasites? And is he on any type of medication?

Terry

StarDeb55
01-28-2013, 10:45 PM
Welcome to you & Mac! It's a very hard decision to treat when our pup's are seniors, & believe me, no one is going to lay any blame on you, whatever you decide. I agree with Terry that some of Mac's symptoms are consistent with Cushings, but this is a really big exception, the dramatic weight loss is most definitely not consistent with Cushing's. From Mac's picture, it appears that he is a mini Schnauzer? If so, I would strongly suggest that you not only have a thyroid panel done, but have his glucose rechecked. Diabetes can come on quite rapidly, & weight loss is more consistent with diabetes. The other big factor is mini Schnauzers are very prone to developing diabetes. I think the first steps are to do a thyroid panel, recheck the blood glucose, & possibly the urine creatinine cortisol ration that Terry has already mentioned.

Please let us know how you proceed. We are here to help in any way we can.

Debbie

molly muffin
01-28-2013, 11:43 PM
Hello and welcome from me too. :)
Terry and Deb have covered the most important items. :)
Nope, we don't judge, every dog is different, every situation is different, we all know that.
We, each one of us, ended up here because we were looking for answers. Welcome to the crazy. :)
When were the last blood tests done and do you have copies of that blood work? If so, we'd be interested in any abnormal results, high or low and the range. If you don't have copies, you'll want to get some for your own files.
What that can do is a comparison with anything you have done now to see what the changes were and what that might affect. The lost weight is worrying as that isn't consistent with the constant eating that a cushings dog wants to do. So, definitely get thyroid, glucose checked and I'd do a full blood panel.
You have a starting point now to at least consider. :) We ask lots of questions btw. LOL
Sharlene and Molly muffin

milosmom
01-29-2013, 12:18 AM
i will also welcome you and know that you have found the place to help you,support you and educate us all on what might be going on with our furbabies,you will find many concerned,loving people here always.glad that you found this forum to help you along on your journey...patty(milo)meka xoxox

mom2macdougal
01-29-2013, 06:10 AM
Thanks for the warm welcomes!!!

Point of clarification, Mac is a Scottish terrier, not a schnauzer. Actually my avatar picture is a portrait my son's friend drew of him and gave me for Christmas this year. I really wanted to capture his "eyes", and he did a wonderful job, which is not all that apparent in the down-sized avatar picture.

You all provided wonderful suggestions and support. I'll keep you updated after the vet visit!

addy
01-29-2013, 01:14 PM
Hi and Welcome,

I love your portrait!!!

Sometimes it is not so much weight loss in our Cush pups but loss of muscle which then leads to redistribution of how they carry their weight. It can also give them that bit of a skeletal look. How much weight has your pup actually lost?

At any rate, welcome and I am glad you found us. Please keep us up to date on the tests and ask as many questions as you need to.

SoggyDoggy
01-29-2013, 07:44 PM
A SCOTTY DOG!!!!!! :D:D:D I love Scotty's, so full of character! My boy Fraser (pictured in avatar) is actually 1/2 Scotty believe it or not. Other half is maltese though, hence the ears. Also, his fur is not cut as a Scotty, so the beard and eyebrows aren't quite right either, but he is pure Scotty heart! and at 13 (in september last year) he is going strong!

Anyway, in my research around his diagnosis time, I found out that Scotties are actually quite prone to developing cushing's, so much so that there is a Scotty society somewhere I found with a full section devoted to Scotties with Cushings. (As far as information went though, I found much more here :D)

Anyway, one thing to keep in mind if you do decide to treat, whatever the diagnosis, is start low. Scotties systems are apparently quite drug sensitive in addition to everything else, so react well with lower doses. And also remember, that even though some dogs have a hard time with the drugs and you can hear some horror stories, there are also lots of successes. It doesn't always have to be a bad experience, though it is pretty scary to start because we tend to be so nervous about our fur kids and hope they are ok.

Well, good luck with those tests, do get copies and if you can, post the abnormal results with ranges here as the amazing folks have so much experience between them that you get excellent advice. (I swear at least a couple must have vet degrees - or higher!) Keep us posted!

PS: LOVE the name Macdougal! :D:D

mom2macdougal
01-29-2013, 10:24 PM
Thanks, soggy! Your fur-friend is adorable!!! I can see the Scottie in him!!!

I'm torn, and am just absorbing lots of information. My Mac is still playful (if I encourage it), just had his liver treats while we played ball, and is outside hopefully eliminating himself of most of the water he drank all day and tonight!!! Getting ready to put his "diaper" on him!

My son and I have had lots of heart-to-heart talks about treatment/doctor visits. I'm so fearful when I take him in they will want to keep him for days. I don't want to put him through a lot of "away from me" time, although I know it may be for the best in the end. Lots to think about!!''

What a GREAT group of like-minded dog lovers! So glad i found you all! I will keep you posted, and am so thankful for the encouragement and strength!!!

Proud to be Mac's mom!!

SoggyDoggy
01-29-2013, 10:46 PM
Yep, there is a lot of information to absorb, but even more so when you don't know what you are dealing with. My advice would be talk to the vet, get a full picture, ie blood panel, glucose, thyroid and UC:CR if you can, try to find out what it is that you are dealing with and then consider the options. Don't jump in to assume it's cushing's just yet, as the symptoms mimic so many others. At least if you know what you are dealing with, you will have a better idea of what you could be in for either way, both you and Mac.

Good luck, let us know how it all goes.

molly muffin
01-29-2013, 11:26 PM
Hi Mac's mom. Usually when you're doing testing for cushings and other things, it's just a matter of taking him in and getting his blood drawn, urine, etc.

A couple tests like the ACTH and LDDS can require that you leave him at the vets that day or morning, but you can have it back home that afternoon/evening. There shouldn't be anything that would keep him away from you for days for tests. Even when I had the ultrasound, we went in, did the consult and then I waited till the ultrasound was over, spoke with the IMS and took her home. No way would I leave her unnecessarily either. So I don't want you to be afraid about that.

If you have any questions, then by all means, go ahead and ask. That is what we are here for and we'll give you an honest answer.

Being scared is a horrible feeling and if there is anything that we can do to help, well, here we are. :)
If you can figure out what is going on and come up with a plan for treatment, cushings if that is what it is, is indeed treatable and a normal life span can be lived out. Whatever is going on, once you know, you can make an informed decision.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

Squirt's Mom
01-30-2013, 10:12 AM
Hi and welcome to you and Mac! :)

I just wanted to tell you that my Squirt (1/2 Cairn Terrier, 1/2 Longhaired Chihuahua) was 10 yrs old when she was diagnosed. She subsequently went through a rather serious surgery based on finding in the Cushing's testing and 3 years after that, under went surgery on one of her legs. She was on treatment for a milder form of Cushing's for over 3 years and has been on Lysodren for about two years now. She will be 15 in Feb. :);)

Squirt is my heart-n-soul dog, she is the light of my world and has been for over a decade. She had been the sole steady source of comfort for me after a sudden loss and when she was diagnosed, I thought my world was ending. The look in her vet's eye told the tale as she explained what Cushing's was because she knew just how much Squirt meant to me. Tears pouring from her eyes, she promised she would do everything she could to help us - and she did. We were lucky to start this journey with an amazing vet. ;)

Our vet did not rush into treatment but was very thorough in the testing phase, looking for any other possibility for the elevated cortisol. Squirt had the LDDS, HDDS, ACTH, UTK panel and 2 abdominal ultrasounds. That is when they found a tumor on her spleen - which saved her life as well as being the cause of the elevated cortisol on the initial test results. During this time, we found our family here who saved what little sanity I had left and held my hand as they began to teach me what I needed to know in order to help my Sweet Bebe.

Our K9C family is still reaching out to hold the hands of any and all who wander into our house, still doing the best we can to support, educate, encourage, and always remember each and every member here. You and Mac are now part of our wonderful family and I am very glad you both are here. The most important thing I can tell you is this - ya'll will never be alone again. We will be with you every step of the way...all you ever need to do is reach out and you will find a whole host of folks reaching back to you. The collective knowledge and first hand experience to be found here is astounding and free to any who ask. And you simply cannot find a more supportive, understanding bunch of folk anywhere.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

milosmom
01-30-2013, 08:59 PM
nicely written leslie and a hello to you macs' mom !!! you will find plenty of info here. there will be many sets of eyes that will be following your story...patty(milo)meka xoxox

Simba's Mom
01-30-2013, 10:06 PM
Welcome to the family, you just found a place with a load of information and encouragement! Take care

SoggyDoggy
01-31-2013, 05:33 AM
Hi, Just checking in to see how Mac is doing? Have you made a vet appointment to discuss tests and options at all yet? Remember, if you have any questions about anything, just ask. Lots of experience and advice here. :D

Take care and update us when you can.

mom2macdougal
02-01-2013, 08:42 PM
Mac has an appointment in the morning with the vet. This is the same vet I spoke with a couple years ago about the possibility of Cushings. We are just doing a routine blood test in the morning, but I am going to ask about that ratio test you all speak of to rule out Cushings. She also mentioned the weight loss could be due to diabetes. But I'm also not sure it's weight loss as much as redistribution.

Positive thoughts are appreciated! I'll know tomorrow, as the vet told me they now have a lab and can do the work-up in their office rather than sending it off for testing.

No food after 8 tonight for Mac..... so we'll be playing ball with liver treats early! Your encouragement in this forum has encouraged me not to give up yet on him! Thank you all for your responses and helpful words!

molly muffin
02-01-2013, 09:12 PM
This will be an absolutely fine vet visit. Nice that they have a full lab in house. I think a discussion is a good idea.
Right down anything you want to know tonight. I tend to forget something if I don't have it down.
Ask us anything you wan too. Might as well cover all the bases. :)

We support each other and I think that makes it easier to get through this. It helps to know that you have others who have been there or are there now and doing the exact same things you are.
I've always considered that a lot of this is about quality of life. As long as Mac can have a good quality of life and you and he are in harmony with that (hope that phrasing makes sense). Then anything is still possible.

Hang in there, you're doing good. Baby steps. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

mom2macdougal
02-02-2013, 07:01 PM
Well, we went in early this morning for the blood draw. Mac was NOT a happy camper, but I guess sometimes we have to do unpleasant things with our babies as well as pleasant things! :) His weight was 21 pounds, and the last time I had him in (probably a year or more ago) he weighed 23, so he hadn't really lost all that much weight.

I didn't hear back from the vet for a few hours, and it was nerve-wracking! The long and short of it is that he has diabetes, with a good possibility he has Cushings underlying the diabetes. I didn't write down all the levels, and I meant to when we went back later today to start shots. I guess they are what they are, and I have to trust my vet. I know his blood sugar was mid to high 400s. He had several other elevated numbers which she suspects when everything is put together, it would point to Cushings. But at this time we're going to treat the diabetes with insulin and see where that takes us.

So Mac had his first insulin shot delivered by yours truly (under the watchful eye of the vet) this afternoon. He didn't even hardly flinch. So at least I think that part of it will be easy to do. I'm going to watch his symptoms this week (mainly his increased hunger/appetite and excessive drinking), and I will take him in on Friday afternoon for a glucose test to see where we are. I'm also going to be taking a urine sample in for her to test, as she wants to make sure he hasn't developed an infection.

I guess I feel better about things. It's a lot to absorb, and I'm going to be hitting a lot of the research links from this site.

The main thing is that I like the vet, and she "gets" me...... Some may think she's not being aggressive enough. She did offer me a referral and said an ultrasound would be the definitive testing mechanism for Cushings. Since we don't have vet specialists where I live, I doubt I'll take him two hours away for the work-up. Instead I'm going to adopt the attitude that I will do what I can do to make him comfortable and his body systems a bit more in snyc.

Once again, thanks for the kind words and support this site offers! I'll keep you posted as to his progress with the insulin!

addy
02-02-2013, 08:02 PM
I am sorry to hear the news. It is best to get the diabetes under control. It may turn out he does not even have Cushings.

We have a wonderful sister site http://k9diabetes.com/

Not that we want you to go anywhere. We have quite a few members belonging to both sites and they go back and forth. Now that you found us we do hope you stick around.:):):):)

Hugs

SoggyDoggy
02-02-2013, 08:07 PM
Hi! I'm so glad you got an answer and found out about the diabetes. That particular one is something that can be dangerous if not treated so glad you are getting a handle on it early. To help you with that research you mentioned, we have a sister site, k9diabetes.com that will be able to help you out considerably if you haven's already found it. It too is choc full of wonderful, knowledgeable and helpful people, so it's possibly a good idea to hop over there and have a look around.

From what I have learnt, it is more important to get the diabetes controlled and then investigate whether cushings is an issue. So from that point, we'll expect you to stick around and say "Hi" at least, give us an update on Mac (especially as he's a Scotty) and let us know how things are going.

I want to wish you good luck with the diabetes, it sounds like you are getting a handle on things really quickly and you should notice a big change in Mac. Take care and give him a big kiss for me!

Harley PoMMom
02-02-2013, 08:13 PM
So sorry to hear that Mac has diabetes. The canine diabetes link that Addy posted to our sister site is a wonderful and knowledgeable group of people and I do highly suggest you join there.

Please do keep us updated too!

Love and hugs,
Lori

molly muffin
02-02-2013, 08:57 PM
The good thing is that you know and if you know, you can deal with it. So that is good.
Just like everyone else has said, the k9diabetes forum is wonderful, knowledgable people who can help you and answer all kinds of questions. Whether he does or doesn't have cushings, you won't really know till you get this under some sort of control.
You can still have normal, wonderful life with Mac!

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

mom2macdougal
02-05-2013, 09:26 PM
Just FYI, an update, Mac and I are getting along great with the insulin shots! It's not near as bad as I feared it might be. He's a trooper, and I do believe he's feeling somewhat better!

We go on Friday for testing to see if his levels are decreasing. BUT, he drank a bit less water last night, and his diaper wasn't near as soaked! (Beats the heck out of him being so thirsty on Sunday night that he was licking his diaper. THAT broke my heart!)

Thanks for the link to the diabetes website. I'm going to visit both sites and continue to get good positive thoughts and ideas and feedback! You guys are the best!

Simba's Mom
02-05-2013, 10:23 PM
Glad to hear that shots are going good, take care!

SoggyDoggy
02-06-2013, 08:59 AM
Hey! Great to hear that Mac is doing better, sounds like he is turning a corner and heading in the right direction. Being that thirsty and licking the diaper is a bit of a worry as you say, poor baby!

Give him lots of cuddles and kisses from all of us and do keep us posted. :p

molly muffin
02-06-2013, 02:45 PM
Yay, good news on the shots. You're a real trooper to be able to give those. I always think I would be terrified but then it's your baby and it's amazing what a person can learn to do for them we love.

I hope the symptoms continue to improve and eventually the diaper will be gone forever. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

NoonelovesmelikeNorman
02-06-2013, 02:52 PM
You are so strong...I am not sure I could do the shots..You're inspirational! Happy things are turning around for Mac.

Sharon and Norman

SoggyDoggy
04-29-2013, 01:56 PM
Hey, just wondering how you and Mac are getting along? Been awhile since we have heard anything.