An undiagnosed noob...(11 y/o rough collie) UPDATE Kel has passed

[Megan]

Hi everyone.

My (nearly) 11 year old purebred rough collie bitch and I are somewhat in limboland... Kel seems to have some symptoms of cushings, but seemingly not key ones - and I'm wondering if she's early stages, or doesn't have it? Wondered if anyone in here could help indicate either way - I realise that without all the blood tests etc we can't possibly expect a definitive answer (and perhaps not even then?) but my vet doesn't want to put Kel through all of the tests when she isn't bad, and for other health reasons (Kel comes with colitis, EXTREME nervousness and blind from birth), and she knows that it's beyond my budget.

Sidenote: My vet is pretty much a 'hands off' kinda vet and only treats with drugs if necessary, and is one of the rare vets to encourage holistic treatments where possible. In fact, this makes me reluctant to post in here as I don't want everyone thinking I'm a poor dog owner :(

So the nitty gritty. Kel is NOT drinking excessively - she has access to two water bowls each day, each holding approx. 1.5 litres (sorry I'm Australian!) of water each - she shares these bowls with her 40kg labradore x brother. As a rule, I change the inside bowl once a day (sometimes not empty but Kel is a big backwasher so it gets mucky) and unfortunately the outside bowl is harder to monitor as it sits under a tap that sometimes drips - but I def. don't fill it anymore than once a day so I'm inclined to think between the two of them (40kg lab x and 25kg collie) they don't drink anymore than possible 2l a day between them. The dog probably drinks most of that. So I figure it's a bit NO to drinking excessively.

Kel DOES pee the bed. She is only incontinent from the hours of 7pm - 6am, which is when she does her hardcore sleeping. She nearly never has accidents outside of that, even if she sleeps. I think it's only a problem when she sleeps deeply. She has been doing this for about 5 months now, and it wasn't fixed with stilbestrol, and we did test for infections and she's ok on that front. Sometimes it can flare up worse. It started after she caught a tummy bug from her brother that gave us hell for a week.

Kel doesn't really eat excessively - she does enjoy her food a lot, and does nag for it for up to an hour before feed time (we stick to a schedule) but doesn't hoover up anything she finds like I hear it's common for CD dogs. She will eat duck poo if she can get it from our ducks, but doesn't bother garbage bins, or hang around people eating. She has 3/4 cup dry for breakfast, and 3/4 dry plus a generous handful of human grade beef mince for dinner.

Kel HAS some hair loss - symmetrical - but not much, just in her armpits (total loss) and a little around the inside of her hips (total loss) - her belly was already bare. She has lost nearly all her undercoat (remember she's a rough collie so she still looks fully furred but - as my uncle put it - she's lost her boof) and where she was shaved 6.5 months ago has not grown back. Her coat is a little rough.

Kel had some grand mal seizures 6.5 months ago. This was when cushings was first bought up, though the vet can't remember why he thought it then. She was knocked on her arse by valium which caused complete amnesia for a week, then her memory all came back abruptly and there's been no issues with seizures since. We still don't know what caused them (unless it was CD?)

She pants. I'd say probably half to three quarters of the time she doesn't unless it's warm (which is normal for her) and the other quarter she's panting excessively (for her). Just last week and again six weeks before that she seemed to go on some crazy excess panting bender, where she'd spend three days panting more, then one day panting really hard to the point of distressed panting/laboured breathing where she'd grunt in her sleep, then three days coming back down off of that back to normal... I have no idea what causes this. I'm wondering if something is triggering anxiety related panting? Is this a cushings thing? This is what I find most distressing. Kel is very stoic so if this is pain, it must be bad pain.

Kel is showing no sign of the pot bellied appearance, but you can feel her spine quite clearly. She appears - visually - to be in good nick.

I feel she has some muscle wastage, she seems occasionally to be weak in the hind quarters. In saying that, her father was put down at 12 due to bad arthritis of the hips, and when she walks you can feel a click in her hips. Whether this is hereditary arthritis or clicky hips from lack of muscle support I don't know.

And lastly the thing that puzzles me the most... all of Kels 'symptoms' that may be CD - with exception of the incontinence and hair loss - seem to be erratic. If it's CD it's like it isn't always a problem, like the glands aren't producing excess all the time, just sometimes. I wonder this because of her hips (and to a lesser degree front right leg) - it's like she has arthritis which is causing her discomfort but the cortisone is masking it, and sometimes she limps, sometimes she doesn't, and when she is limping she seems happier, like the cortisone (if it's present) isn't producing so much to make her feel mucky in any other way. When she's walking smoothly is when the other symptoms flare up and she seems to have a 'cushings day'. If she's limping she's playing with toys and nagging me for attention, and scratching around her favourite bush. If she's not limping she sticks closer to the back door, is quiet and sleeps more.

My understanding with CD is that it's there... it doesn't come and go like that?

Sorry for such a long blathering post! Just trying to give lots of info and hoping you guys can give me some good news... like no, Kel doesn't have CD lol

[mytil]

Hi and welcome to our site. I am sorry your Kel is having these troubles. Has your vet screened for any thyroid issues? The symptoms you mentioned could point towards Cushing's, but without the ravenous appetite and drinking tons of water I would be suspect of her having it.

Is your girl taking anything for colitis that contains steroids?

Like you mentioned, one cannot really diagnose Cushing's without results of a series of tests. Here is a fairly inexpensive test that can RULE OUT Cushing's.


Urine Cortisol/Creatinine Ratio Test: Considered a screening test, this cannot diagnose Cushing's, but it can rule it out. A urine sample is examined for the relative amounts of cortisol versus a normally excreted protein metabolite, creatinine (the latter is used to control for the degree of dilution of the urine). The greater the ratio, the higher the cortisol level. High cortisol in urine is suggestive of high cortisol in the bloodstream. Many conditions other than Cushing's disease can cause false positives, so this test is not considered diagnostic. Nonetheless, if the cortisol/creatinine ratio is okay, the dog is not likely to be Cushingoid, so this is a good screening test.

Did your vet mention anything else about the grand mal other than Cushing's? What about epilepsy?

Terry

[labblab]

Welcome from me, too! I want to "second" Terry's suggestion re: performing the urine cortisol/creatinine ratio as a simple initial Cushing's diagnostic. A general blood and urine panel can also provide important information. There are certain irregularities about liver function, cholesterol level, and urine characteristics that are often associated with Cushing's. Additionally, low thyroid might be the chief culprit since it can be responsible for skin/coat issues, lethargy and also seizures. So I am wondering whether your vet has checked for hypothyroidism? The first step is the T4 level on a standard blood panel. If the T4 is normal, then you can basically rule out hypothyroidism. If the T4 is below normal, then there is additional blood testing that can determine whether the low thyroid level is secondary to another condition (like Cushing's), or whether it is the primary issue in and of itself. Thyroid supplementation is one of the cheapest and most easily treatable canine issues. So if it turns out to be your dog's primary probem, it can be easily solved.

So if it were me, I'd start with some basic blood/urine diagnostics. The results can point you in the direction of hypothyroidism, Cushing's, or another issue altogether. You are correct that, typically, Cushing's symptoms do not come-and-go. However I believe that some adrenal tumors may produce steroid pulses inconsistently. So Cushing's may still be in the "mix" for your dog. But I'd definitely start with some basic diagnostics first.

Marianne

[addy]

but my vet doesn't want to put Kel through all of the tests when she isn't bad, and for other health reasons (Kel comes with colitis, EXTREME nervousness and blind from birth), and she knows that it's beyond my budget.

Hi and welcome,

I can only completely agree with the advice and insight given by Terry and Marianne. One thing I did want to say is that my Zoe has colitis which was then diagnosed as inflammatory bowel disease. I waited to treat her Cushings until I had that under control. I just wanted you to know you can treat a colitis dog for Cushings if your pup truly has Cushings. We have managed to keep Zoe's IBD/colitis under control for two years now without a major flare up while treating with Trilostane.

First things first though. Cushings is seldom an emergency that has to be treated right away.

So glad you found us.

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to you and Kel. :)

Everyone has already given you some great advice. cushings is a bugger to try and diagnose, that's for sure. Heck, here I am still trying to figure it all out. We just ruled out thyroid for my dog, but it's worth checking out and a simple blood chem panel will do that part for you. Has she had a blood test panel recently? If so can you get those results?
The UC:CR is a good test, ask your vet how much it would cost it should be the cheapest of all the cushing test options. It can rule it out at least, but it can't confirm unfortunately.
If you were a bad dog owner, then you wouldn't be here asking questions. :) We don't think that anyhow. We all KNOW how expensive these tests can be and that money can be a factor, as can other conditions that Kel may have, like the arthritis.
What you will get here, is a very good support system to help you out when you have questions and just be there to lament together about how things are going.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Megan]

Thanks so much for your replies so far! I forgot, in my haste to post last night - I think Kel also has calcitis cutis. She has little while 'pimples', primarily in one spot - the bald spot in her right armpit - but has a few on the left side too, and the odd one throughout her coat. Perhaps more that I can't see for her hairy hair.

Mytil - Kel isn't taking anything for colitis at present other than chamomile tea, which I had recommended and believe it or not, works a treat! Other than that we have it controlled with a strict diet which if we even look like varying from... look out. I have tried tinkering with it to encorporate or drop things that weren't ideal for cushings but... we're back to the original diet, after some poopy, sad faced days. So no, no steroids to cause the cushings symptoms. Kel is on nothing ATM other than some vitamin suppliments and a holistic herbal treatment for cushings.

Thank you for the advice with the test - I will discuss it with my vet and see if that's something we can do here in backwater Tas, Australia! I hate to think we're focussing so hard on the potential of CD that we lose sight of the fact it may be something easily treated!

And re: the grand mals (three of them in 6 hours) - we felt we would not treat them as epilepsy until they happened again, and with the time span that has fallen between then and now - nearly 7 months - we've assumed she is not epileptic. He felt to put her on epilepsy medication after one occasion may not be ideal and that we would deal with it as it arose, which is hasn't since, thank heavens.

Labblab - thanks for the advice re: the potential for 'pulsing' adrenal tumours. If Kel DOES have CD I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be the case, as that is the exact word I used to describe it to someone else - like the gland is pulsing occasionally and pushing out too much, which affects her for a few days and then she's back to normal (barring the piddling). It's very perplexing. I should be thankful, as she's really a normal dog a lot of the time otherwise. It is the main reason I came here, to find out what is 'normal' for cushings because people keep feeling sorry for us when I mention it, but I can't see why as Kel seems ok most of the time? I am hoping for a misdiagnosis.

Addy - thanks for the heads up with the colitis :) Great to hear your pooch is doing well with it with the CD medications! Is Trilostane the chemo drug? Or are they all chemo drugs? I am keen to avoid that one if I can.

Molly muffin - Kel had a blood panel done when she had her seizures but unfortunately for all of us, it seems to have been misplaced somewhere along the way. I know that makes my vet sound incompetent but they're really not - this is the first time this has happened and we have a reasonably good relationship with them due to some... lets say well looked after pets lol.

I gotta say.. wow. I've been involved in a lot of forums over the years and you guys are far and away the nicest, most accepting people I've ever come across on the internet. Thank you for not judging!

Another two questions - do dogs with CD become a bit vague sometimes? Kel will occasionally act what I think be best described as 75% of herself - she loses personality sometimes, gets vague, can be hard to get through to. I often wonder if she's actually developing dementia too. Her hearing is going as well which I doubt is related. I think I'd be going deaf too if I were her, her ears being so close to her mouth... anyone who has lived with a rough collie will understand what I mean ;)

And...

How does CD progress? If Kel has this, what can I expect with an untreated dog? Will she continue to develop more CD symptoms, will the ones she have get worse, or will she just remain statistically more likely to develop kidney/heart/liver issues and/or be more open to infections? Or do we really have no idea?

Thanks again for your help :) I will def. pass these recommendations on to my vet, I think she's keen to learn more about CD herself. And yes Kel has seen two vets at the same practice, hence the he and she lol

[Trish]

HI Megain
Welcome to the thread, I am not much good on the cushings part. My dog had a few of the symptoms too, but tested negative for cushings and long story short he had an adrenal tumour. But I see all the experts are lending you a helping hand, I truly believe I would not have got through all the testing, diagnosing etc without their sound advice so you are in good hands :D:D All the best in getting everything sorted!
Trish and Flynn

[mytil]

Hey again,

When you get the chance, can you post some photos of Kel - especially with this new development.


I think Kel also has calcitis cutis. She has little while 'pimples', primarily in one spot - the bald spot in her right armpit - but has a few on the left side too, and the odd one throughout her coat. Perhaps more that I can't see for her hairy hair.

Keep us posted about your vet's input on the advice, especially thyroid issues.

Terry

[Megan]

Terry, can I post pics from my desktop straight on to here or do they have to be on another page or??? Will try and get some tomorrow, but Kels is not the most willing model lol

[addy]

You can go to my album of Zoe's skin. I took a photo of her"pimples". Is that what your pup's look like? The derm vet asperated them; they are not pimples but hard calcium deposits diagnosed as Calcinosis Cutis. I consider myself and Zoe blessed that we have not had it progress but seem to be holding it as bay.

[labblab]

Terry, can I post pics from my desktop straight on to here or do they have to be on another page or??? Will try and get some tomorrow, but Kels is not the most willing model lol
Hi again, Megan. Probably the easiest way to upload pictures is to create a personal photo album and place them there. Here's a link to the index to our forum FAQs section. Under the "User Profile" section, you'll find instructions for creating an album and also, if you wish, a photo avatar to appear alongside your username whenever you post. :)

If it turns out that Kel does have calcinosis cutis, that may short-circuit your need for a bunch of aditional testing since it is pretty much a definitive diagnostic for Cushing's.


How does CD progress? If Kel has this, what can I expect with an untreated dog? Will she continue to develop more CD symptoms, will the ones she have get worse, or will she just remain statistically more likely to develop kidney/heart/liver issues and/or be more open to infections? Or do we really have no idea?
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head, in that any of those possibilities may occur. Cushing's can follow a variable course in terms of the speed and severity with which symptoms advance. If Kel is already nearing the end of the typical life expectancy for her breed and her symptoms are not causing her great discomfort, then I don't believe there is a need to rush into treatment. One exception, however, is if Kel truly does have calcinosis cutis. Because if this condition gets out of hand, it can truly make life miserable.

Marianne

[Megan]

Addy, it's difficult to tell from the pic but it looks similar to Kel - I will get some photos of the area today if possible. Because it's under her armpits I basically have to wait until she goes to sleep ;)

Thanks for the advice labblab, will get onto that :) I've read it can be quite nasty but Kel has had the little lumps for... hmm... 2 months now and no sign of progress at all. Bugger. I had gotten my hopes up that we didn't have cushings after all.

[Megan]

Ok... I now have a profile picture! Of my beautiful girl Kel. Did I forget to mention she's hands down the prettiest blue merle rough collie any of you have ever seen?

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=584&pictureid=4443

So. Any idea if I'm looking at calcinois cutis or not? The vet looked and dismissed it as not important but she also doesn't know a great deal about cushings (tho I think she's learning). I could be wrong, but I think it looked worse before and that the white lumps may have reduced in number. I also think the little black spots have grown in number. I google image'd the problem and Kels spots look nothing like the pics on there but I have a feeling they were extreme examples of the bad situations. Kels spots are causing her no problems, she's quite comfy and they don't appear to be painful, itchy or anything.

I also have another pic in my folder now showing her general coat condition where you can see that she hasn't got much loss. She's lost a lot (nearly all) of her undercoat but little topcoat.

BTW The answer I want to hear is "No Megan that is DEF not CC. Victory is yours!" :cool:

[labblab]

Megan, I'm afraid this is not the answer you're wanting, but if you take a look at Addy's photo of Zoe's calcinosis cutis, I think there are similarities:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=433&pictureid=3615

I hope Addy will comment directly because she'll be a better judge than me. But I think the bottom line is that the only way to know for sure is to actually biopsy one of the "pimples." If it were me, I'd lean on my vet to do that. Because once again, if the biopsy comes back positive, then you've pretty much got a definitive diagnosis of Cushing's. Any treatment decision will still be up to you, but at least you'd know what you're dealing with. And at the same time Kel is in having the biopsy performed, I really would want that blood/urine panel done as well. Because if it is not calcinosis cutis, I remain highly suspicious of thyroid issues and I would also want to see whether there are other abnormalities present.

Marianne

P.S. And I'm so glad you've posted the photos of Kels :) -- you are right, she is a beautiful (and very sweet-looking) girl!

[addy]

Hi,

Zoe's do not itch or bother her either yet, key word being, yet. I need to keep her CC in control so it does not worsen. That is the major reason I am upping her dose next month even though she is doing well otherwise. The black pimples you see are pimples Sonja's Angel Appolo had and he was also diagnosed with CC as well as mites. The white pimples look the same as Zoe's and my bet is that if they are asperated, they are hard calcium inside. As soon as I dropped Zoe's cortisol, the larger white deposits went away.

I am sorry. Calcinosis Cutis can be just awful to get under control and can worsen rather quickly.

((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))

[Megan]

Well balls. Not what I wanted to hear. Nevermind.

Next time we're at the vets I will get one of them to nick into one for me. I will give it some thought in the meantime... I really am disinterested in the chemo drugs so it may well be nothing will change in spite of this news. I'll talk to the holistic person I've been consulting (I have Kel on some herbal thing for cushings - time will tell) about it and see if she's had any direct dealings with it. It certainly hasn't gotten worse since I first noticed it, and I can't rule out that it hasn't actually cleared up a little - do dogs with it usually grow toenails crazy fast? Kel has always been a toenail grower (hates me touching her feet, so it's hell to deal with) but I swear she's grown massive long nails in the last 7 months. Now I know it's probably an excess calcium thing.

We've been having a big colitis flare up over the last few days which is distressing for us both, but between the camomile tea and the addition of slippery elm powder we seem to have it under control. When that is acting up she pants more, which she never used to do when it was a bother, so I'm unsure if the colitis is causing stress = panting or panting is causing stress = colitis.

I suppose at the end of the day I will go with my original plan - to ease Kel along comfortably until we got to something we couldn't treat without causing Kel stress or discomfort. I assumed it would probably be her liver or heart (both of which are good atm). Now I realise it'll probably be her skin. She has great quality of life ATM, so will focus on that. Makes the 'festive' season sad though, knowing it could well be her last.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Megan and a belated welcome to you and Kel! :)

She is gorgeous! I bet she's a lot of fun, too!

I wanted to share my experiences with Colitis. I have a blind baby who has stress colitis. It was really bad just after she came home to us a few years ago. Her vet started her on a series of anti-biotics and metronidazole - and they would help as long as she was taking them then when it was time to stop, she would flare again. I am not comfortable using the metronidazole very often and was relieved when a good friend and mentor suggested Slippery Elm Bark...and it has been a life-saver for her and for me (IBS). I can see that you are into Holistic approaches so I wanted to be sure you were aware of this amazing herb. Another great herb to try is Marshmallow - another demulcant with healing properties for mucus membranes. SEB is endangered but the Marshmallow isn't.

Would you mind sharing what herbs / supplements / etc Kel is taking to address the probable Cushing's? I am always interested in hearing what is being used and how well they work on the cortisol and signs...and in Kel's case the CC. I would also like to strongly recommend that even if you stick with avoiding treating in a traditional manner, that you will keep up the testing (ACTH) to see how well the herbs are controlling the cortisol. This is where most Holistic treatments come in lacking - no testing is done and effectiveness is based solely on anecdotal information. Kel's body is going to experience severe damage if the cortisol isn't controlled, especially with the CC on board. So it is important to know where the levels are to start with and where they are throughout treatment - regardless of the treatment approach used. ;) The scheduling of the testing won't be critical like it is with Trilo or Lyso but it is still very important to keep up with. I also hope the treatment being used on Kel is NOT Cushex or Supraglan. :eek::eek: Both pure snake oil. ;) Both contain herbs specifically counterindicated for Cushing's.

I look forward to chatting with you and hearing how Kel is progressing. And I'm really glad you found us!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Megan]

Hi Leslie :) Thanks for your reply - my girl is also blind to go with her stress colitis - can I ask why your pup is blind? Was it cushings or something else?

We started on SEP only three days ago and after once dose of it, she seems to have improved greatly - her bowel movements are back to normal and thus her anxiety has vanished. Fingers crossed we don't have any more flare ups anytime soon, and if we do they remain to be controlled with the powder :) She doesn't pass blood, but will pass a lot of mucus and the movements become quite sloppy. What a horrible conversation ;)

Kel has now been on Robert McDowells herbal treatment for cushings - http://www.herbal-treatments.com/dog-prescriptions/cushings-disease-mix-canine.html - for four weeks now. We chose not to go down the original diagnosis line to start with so no bloodwork has been done to indicate what the levels were to start with, so we have no base line to compare unfortunately. She is, however, very cheerful and I believe that four weeks in, she has def. shown improvement in her general demenour, she has shown improvement in muscle tone (she's stopped trembling in the hindquarters and seems stronger). The jury is out on whether there is a reduction in the number of CC bumps, and whether or not she *might* be starting hair regrowth. Unfortunately no sign of reducing the incontinence yet. There's been no progression of symptoms in the time she's been on it though, so I take that as a positive! I've been trying to pinpoint where the cushings (should she have it) started, and it was first apparent to me when she was shaved for blood tests when she had a seizure back on the 5th June, and the hair never returned. So she may well be even up to a year into it already.

I am considering a trip to the vet to look into the CC bumps, and perhaps do some urine or blood work then, but the problem is the trip to the vet causes great anxiety to Kel and flares her colitis badly, so I honestly feel that the pros may not outweigh the cons, and my primary interest is keeping Kel happy for today, and deal with tomorrow as it comes. She's already older than one of her parents got, and with her health issues I honestly never thought she'd get as old as she is now.

[Megan]

Oh, I just read somewhere that an excess of female sex hormone can cause CC. Kel was on stilbestrol for awhile, a few months ago when the vet thought the incontinence may have been due to a reduction in sex hormones. We kept it up for awhile, it briefly worked then stopped, we continued in hope that levels and/or dosage would sort it out but nothing did. When Kel went to the vet last, we discovered she was lactating from one nipple.

Could the CC be due to the excess estrogen? Could my dear Kel get any weirder? :rolleyes: I feel like the number of bumps could possibly have reduced since i first noticed them... about two months ago.

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks for the info on the McDowell formula and it is as I feared....licorice is included and this herb should never be given to a pup with Cushing's because it is an adrenal stimulant causing the production of cortisol - the exact opposite of what a cush pup needs. None of the vets, Holistic, who's texts I use recommend this herb for Cushing's but ALL of them do recommend it for Addison's, a condition that is the exact opposite of Cushing's - Addison's pups don't have enough cortisol. ;)

The Chaste Berry is recommended but I will need to look into the others included as I am not familiar with them...other than the comfrey, and there have been enough negative side effects from this herb that I wouldn't be comfortable using it internally myself for human or animal. As a poultice or compress, yes, but not internally. It is rarely used internally these days.

Bach Essences are highly touted by many herbalist, healers, and communicators. This is one area I haven't ventured into very much at all yet - it's a different approach than what I am learning but they are complimentary and often used in conjunction.

I'm really glad you seem to be seeing improvement in Kel with this formula but I would really give some serious thought to asking the Holistic vet to stop the formula and give Kel a combination of individual herbs that does not include the licorice or comfrey. I am always much more comfortable with the individual herbal approach. ;) My grandson and I are meeting his other grandparents for breakfast this morning and when I get back, I will look into these other herbs and let you know what I learn.

The Stilbestrol is not available in the US and is actually banned here for use in animals used as food but available in Canada. Here is some info I found on it that may be helpful to answer some of your questions -

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/common/docs/public/aavpt/diethylstilbestrol.pdf

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Happy New Year Megan and Kel!

Hoping the new year brings you and Kel health and happiness.

Cheers,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok...didn't want you to think I had forgotten (tho that is always a possibility so you wouldn't have been out of line to scream about it! :p).

I have had a difficult time finding information on some of the herbs included in McDowell's formula in my text books and info online is contradictory much of the time. Soooo, I have presented the ingredients to my herbalist friends for their expert take on it and will get back to you when the verdict is in.

From what I have read so far, I wouldn't use myself because of the Licorice, Comfrey, Borage, and Rosehips. Licorice and Borage are both adrenal stimulants used to treat Addison's, not Cushing's. Comfrey should never, ever be given on a daily basis because it accumulates and can quickly become toxic. It should never be used in pups with liver problems and can cause liver damage as well as liver cancer. The comfrey root should never be used period and McDowell doesn't tell whether he is using the leaf or root. Rosehips should also be used short-term, for 2-3 days, and only for acute conditions, not chronic conditions like Cushing's and should not be used where kidney issues are present.

I find nothing on the individual flower essences so I can't address them.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Megan]

Thanks for that super comprehensive reply Leslie... I'll discuss it with the crew at Robert McDowells and see what they have to add.

Meanwhile, Kel had her first accident free night last night since August. Not holding my breath but hopeful.

[Squirt's Mom]

I look forward to learning what he has to say. Just FYI, my sources are Dr.s -

Susan G. Wynne, DVM, RH (AHG)

Barbara F. Fougere, BSc, BVMS (Hons), MODT, BHSc (Comp Med), CVA (IVAS), CVCP, CV Herb Med, MHSc (Herb Med), Enr

Steve Marsden, DVM, ND, MSOM, LAc, Dipl.C.H.

David Hoffman, FNIMH, AHG


and Herbalists -

Gregory L. Tilford
Mary L. Wulff

[Megan]

Hoping to discuss it tomorrow with them - meanwhile Kel has had her second accident free night, her general personality has improved again (back to all her happy habits) and her muscle tone seems improved since we started - don't know if it's the herbs or something else entirely but SOMETHING seems to be working for us ATM! 2013 has proven successful so far :)

[Squirt's Mom]

WOOHOO!! :):) Positive direction is always the goal no matter the path or method! :):)

One consistent thing I have learned in my studies....it is the individual's reaction that matters, not what the books or experts say will happen but what actually happens in each unique bio-system - which is what we and each of our babies are...unique bio-systems. ;)

Again....WOOHOO!!! :):):)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

Ah...I have been corrected on the Rosehips. Rosehips should be fairly benign; it is Rose bark that carries the caution for short-term, acute use only. Otherwise, the herbalists I presented his formula to who responded, agree with my assessment.

[Megan]

Hi guys, another question - I know that panting seems to be part of many dogs cushing symptoms, but do we know why?

Is it a muscle weakness thing? A heart or lung thing? My girl has it (still in the process of narrowing down cushings vs thyroid vs ?) and if there is a natural way to help assist her with this symptom I'd love to know as we're not going down the chemo drug route. Of all her symptoms, this seems to be the only one that bothers both her and I, everything else we're happy to live with.

Also, what does everyone know about flaxseed/linseed? (same thing, depends where you're from). ATM I have been recommended to feed her a spoon of crushed seed once a day to help her out, but wondering what peoples experiences are with it.

[addy]

Well, the cortsiol is that fight or flight response which is stress on their bodies. Sometimes the liver is enlarged and pressing on organs, they cant tolerate heat at all. Those are some of the reasons I have read but perhaps we can get another member to discuss in detail.

As for the flaxseed, (fiber) it may cause soft stools so you might have to watch that. Im sure Leslie will be along to discuss that one in detail. She is very knowledgeable.

Keep asking questions, the more you learn, the better voice you can be for your pup;)

[Squirt's Mom]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about panting into Kel's original thread. We normally like to keep all posts about each pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members to refer back to the pup's history when needed. You may need to go back several pages to find the original thread if it has been a while since you last posted. Thanks!

[Megan]

Hi addy, thanks for your response. Isn't flight or fight an adreneline thing, so that would mean it was the adrenal gland, not the pituitary? I have no idea which of Kels is bothering her (if either are), as we haven't done down that route, but if it was adrenal, wouldn't this mean we could operate? Kel is high strung at the best of times and I have wondered if she is suffering some anxiety - though she isn't exhibiting some of her key stressy symptoms when she does the panting thing. She also 'forgets' she's panting sometimes, if something more interesting is happening, and normally settles when she's asleep - so I do wonder if it's 'in her head' so to speak. Does anyone know if cushings dogs who seem to be suffering anxiety be successfully treated with anti anxiety medication?

We seem to have an increase in water consumption over the last few days too :( When I actually monitored water consumption over 24 hours a few days ago, it was still only 3 litres between her and my 40kg dog, which doesn't strike me as much - she isn't urinating any more often, but when she urinates it is nearly clear.

I don't know how quickly a liver can enlarge, but at the last vet check back in November (I think?) it was fine then, as was her heart and lungs. Actually the vet said her heart and lungs were in super condition :)

I have my vet onto finding out more about the tests suggested earlier in this post, so perhaps we can find out so more.

[Megan]

Oh and Squirts Mom - regarding the licorice and borage in the herbal thing, the herb people cited Arndy Shultz Law as something they adhere to - http://www.homeopathyworldcommunity.com/profiles/blogs/arndt-schultz-law-and-its if that answers your question at all?

[Megan]

Have realised that Kels startle reflex is triggering a lot of her panting and heavy breathing - so I assume this means she is suffering from chronic anxiety as a result of the permenent 'fight of flight' situation going on in her body. I am yet to determine whether that indicates adrenal vs either/or?

Anyone have any indication as to whether the anxiety can be treated as a seperate entity, or will anxiety medications not be able to touch it? Remember, Kel is not being treated for cushings via normal medicine. ATM this is the thing that is causing the most stress, for both of us.

I'm also keeping an eye on her nose - bit concerned she's showing early stages of collie nose. Which is perplexing as the treatment for this is cortisone???

Just feel very meh ATM. It's getting on top of me.

[addy]

The only way you can determine if she has Cushings and if it is adrenal verses pituitary is by testing Kels. Anxiety does not mean she has adrenal.

Melatonin can help with anxiety. I was trying to read back through your thread and I was not sure what meds Kels was being given. Did you ever do the UC:CR test? I dont want to tell you melatonin if it interacts with some other herb. And I will mention I had my Zoe on Shen Calmer until I found out it can increase urination. So that sure did not help me with her symptoms. Leslie is up to speed with a lot of herbs but we want to make sure of side effects since they do have them.

I know all of this causes anxiety but we need to have a firm diagnosis of Cushings and then proceed from there. So take a deep breath and could you tell me again, what tests have been done so far and what are you giving Kels?

We'll hold your hand and that will help your anxiety;)

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks for the link as the basis for their use of herbs that are contradicted in Cushing's dogs. I stand by my original assessment however and would stop this product asap if I were you. For one thing, that will give you the chance to see if the things you are observing improve or worsen without these herbs in her system.

There are several "flight or fight" hormones and they are produces in various areas of the body, several organs.

[Megan]

Ok guys. Don't know how to start?

Sad to report I lost my beautiful Kel last Sunday from a massive heart attack, of all things. It was all very quick, from start to finish it was merely minutes, and she passed quietly, quickly, peacefully and with class and dignity.

Sadly we'll never have anything like a definitive diagnosis, so I'll never know if she had cushings, thyroid, a brain tumour or ???

It's all moot now. She is at rest now, running free.

[Trish]

Oh no Megan, I am so very sorry to read your news. What a shock for you. Small blessings I am sure when you are grieving for your baby, but it sounds like it was fast with no suffering. Loads of hugs for you at this sad time
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mytil]

Oh Megan,

I am so very, very sorry to read this. I have added your sweet pup to our In Loving Memory Remembrance list - http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4794 where she will always be honored.

(((((hugs)))))
Terry

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Megan,

I am just so sorry to read this about sweet Kel. What a shock this has to be for you as well. I am glad it was quick and that she didn't seem to suffer, and I am glad she was with you. I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling today. It doesn't matter the circumstances, we are never ready to lose our babies.

You are a good mom, Megan, putting her above all else and trying so hard to learn all you could in order to give her the best possible life. Kel was so lucky to have you in her life.

Today, Kel can see, she is strong and full of vim and vinegar just as when she was a puppy. She was met by all her friends she knew as well as by our babies here. Kel will always be with you in Spirit, always by your side, always filled with love for her sweet mom. And, one day, you will hold her in your arms again and cover her face with kisses.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket, Brick, Sophie, and our Angels, Ruby, Crystal and Tasha


Guardian Angel of Pets

Hello. I've been expecting you for quite some time.
Here, come sit beside us for awhile .
and let me tell you about this old friend of mine.
She might look tattered or maybe old
But I won't say goodbye until you've been told.
She had the brightest eyes I had ever seen,
And wore a beautiful fur coat that would out shine a queen .
She was never prissy but walked with an aire ......
And oh so polite, you could take her most anywhere.
She could run like the wind and could catch anything she chased
But she protected and sat with me when I had problems to face.
You could not find a friend nearly so dear.
Because no matter the trouble she always stayed near...
She has never asked for much from me;
Just to love and respect her and I think you'll agree .
To give her a good meal plus a nice warm bed is not much to ask ;
When she has given me all her love and to her this was no task.
Now I understand you have a schedule to keep.
But I have a small favor before she nods off to sleep.
Please fold your wings around her and let her feel young while in no pain ;
Dear Guardian Angel of Pets ,
please keep her safe and happy until I see her again.

By Ginger Patton

[SoggyDoggy]

Megan, so very sorry to hear your news. Kel looked like a beauty and I'm glad to hear at least that it was quick and peaceful for her.

Love and support, with big hugs thrown in. Take care.

[jmac]

Megan,

I'm so sorry for your loss. My parents collie passed from a heart attack and it was very similar. It was so hard for them, but they were glad she passed quickly and without showing pain. You're in my thoughts...

Julie

[addy]

Oh Megan, I am so very sorry. I am sure you are devestated, what a shock. Please stay with us, we are all here for you.

[molly muffin]

Megan, I am so so sorry to read that Kel had a heart attack. I know that was completely unexpected. I am sure that you are heart broken.
You're right, it doesn't matter what it was now. Only that she lived, she brought joy to you and your family and you did the same for her.

Hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

Megan, I too would like to express my condolences on the loss of Kel.
May she rest in peace and run free in heaven with those who have gone before her.

Prayers of comfort and peace to you and your family.

Sharon

[Simba's Mom]

So sorry about your baby, sending hugs from me and Simba too!

[scoora]

Megan-So sorry to hear of the loss of your sweet Kel. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[Megan]

Thanks guys. It was a massive shock, she scoffed down her breakfast less than an hour before she passed, and trotted outside for a sunbake. Shortly after, she was gone.

I was the last person she saw (and by saw, I mean felt/heard, as she was blind from birth) and she passed quickly into unconsciousness and then from us entirely. It was all very peaceful, quick and without problems. As funny as it seems to say this, considering the circumstances, I was rapt with how she passed - it was everything you could wish for, if you could choose the circumstances in which your dog would pass away.

It goes without saying that we miss her terribly. My dog is pining something fierce, he has lost some of his zip and has only just stopped checking the yard, or when people come home to see if they bought her back. I called him to see her as she was passing, and again after she had passed but I don't think he understood. He was more interested in comforting me then spending time with her, though as she was passing he did let out one short, sharp bark that he's never used before. So who knows. I might have to get another dog sooner than I'd want, for canine company, as my dog has never been without at least one other canine in his pack and it's weirding him out.

It's weirding us both out.

[Bo's Mom]

Megan,
I am so sorry to hear of your beloved Kel's passing. May you have strength and peace to make it through the days/months/years to come. Kel is so lucky to have had you as I know you feel you were luckier to have had Kel in your life. RIP Sweet Kel.

[infoviewer]

Megan:So sorry for your loss of Kel. Always remember she had a wonderful life with you and you with her. I know your heart is breaking and my heart is breaking for the loss of your beautiful baby. Hugs, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Megan,

I was very moved by your story of Kel's passing. That is my fervent prayer for my Sweet Bebe, Squirt...that she not suffer, that it be quick and peaceful, that I am by her side. What a blessing you were given!

Your baby boy probably does understand on a level we don't. It is my thinking that he saw Kel's Spirit as it left, he saw beyond the Veil, and spoke to her as she flew there. He knows Kel is no longer present as she once was but just like you, it is hard for him to accept. He is reminding himself of her scent, the things they did together, and just like us when we lose a baby, he keeps expecting to see her again. I believe our babies experience many of the same emotions we humans do, among them hope and grief. He is grieving yet hoping it isn't for keeps...just as we do for a time. Your baby boy will adjust with some extra TLC. Here are some links that may give you some ideas for helping him -

Grieving dogs – how to help
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1400

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/grief-in-dogs/page1.aspx

http://dogblog.dogster.com/2010/08/23/when-a-dog-loses-a-loved-one-an-interview-with-dr-michael-w-fox-2/

http://dogs.about.com/od/petloss/a/dogs-and-grief-over-death-of-another-dog.htm

When you are ready, I hope you will post a tribute or memorial to your sweet Kel in the In Loving Memory section and share the story of your life together. We would be honored to celebrate her life through your memories.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

I am so sorry for your loss. Rest in Peace Kel

[Megan]

Thanks again guys, and thanks for the links, Leslie. I will go check them out now. When I returned in the wagon today, he ran past me to get to the back of it where the boot was open, to check to see if I'd bought her home with me. I thought he was past looking for her... on the upside, he started a few of his little things again today, so perhaps he is healing.