Hello everyone...Border Collie (Kane) with suspected Cushings :(

[kanesmum]

Another newbie here! My fingers and brain hurt from trying to research Cushings on the internet...when everything I need seems to be right here...thank you :)

Ok, so my best friend of 13 years, Kane, has been rather poorly lately. I put most of his symptoms down to old age, arthritis etc. About 10 days ago he started drinking loads and peeing in the house. I knew something was wrong so took him to the vet with a urine sample to get him checked out. Urine test came back ok, no infections etc. Vet then asked me lots of questions...is he panting a lot, looking for somewhere cool to lie down, exercise intolerant, what his appetite is like? Vet then said he suspects cushings (He also has the pot belly, been trying unsuccessfully to loose weight for 12 months or so).

Had his bloods done and vet phoned me to say everything looks good but his liver results where a bit high and that this leads him to suspect even more that it could be cushings. He is going back on Wednesday to have the ACTH test done. I'll ask my vet for a copy of the blood results then too.

My mind has been a blur since I spoke the my vet, my poor baby could have been suffering for ages and I just thought it was the effects of old age. I have been treating him for arthritis for about 12-18 months as he has been struggling with back legs....now I've read that this could also be another symptom of cushings.

After reading up on it, I'm now convinced that he has it. I suppose I'll find out more after Wednesday. I have a million and one questions buzzing around in my head but for now I'm trying to stay as calm as I can until the results are in.

People don't seem to understand how worried I am as "it's only a dog". No it's not, it's a much loved member of my family. How glad I am that I found this forum :)

Sammy and Kane x

[frijole]

Glad you found us. Yep post the blood panel results, anything high or low along with the ranges for normal.

I assume that they measured/checked glucose for diabetes.. please confirm that.

You should also test the thyroid as it mimics cushings as well. Much easier and cheaper to treat too!

You can rule OUT cushings with a simple urine test called the UC:CR. If it comes back positive it doesn't mean cushings but you can rule it out and it's cheaper than the cushings tests.

Alot of vets get so focused on cushings they overlook other things - cushings is tough to diagnose (takes multiple tests) so its more efficient to check the other things first.

I'd start measuring water intake by marking the bowl and measuring same time each day. Then tell us what "loads of water" is. :) Does Kane have a huge appetite and a rounded belly?

Thanks
Kim

[mytil]

Hi and welcome from me too! Am glad you found us.

Please be kind to yourself thinking you missed something because you thought it was just age setting in. Many of us have done that too.

Kim has started you off with some questions and testing. I would ask your vet also about the test Low Dose Dex Suppression (LDDS) test and will this also be performed.

What medicine are you giving for Kane's arthritis? Actually Cushing's with its excess cortisol helps the pain of arthritis in many pups - it is the muscle weakness that could be happening with Kane.

Keep us posted! And, your Kane is certainly one beautiful boy (I am very partial to herding breeds - my Mytilda was an Aussie).
Terry

[kanesmum]

Thanks Kim and Terry :) I will post Kane's results when I get them from my vet. Yes he was tested for diabetes and that has come back fine.

I will speak to my vet about the other tests on Wed. I was thinking that the ACTH test would tell me a definite yes or no. Is that not the case?

He's currenty taking Onsior 40mg per day. He also has Tramadol if he's having a bad day.

Good idea about the water as I don't know exactly how much he's having, I just know that it has increased a lot. I have 2 water bowls for him (small one upstairs, large one downstairs) which I refresh morning and evening. He's been emptying them when he didn't before.

He has a rounded belly and a huge appetite, always seems hungry. I've been trying to get his weight down for quite a while now to help with his arthritis but he can't seem to lose weight.

Thanks for your replies, lots for me to think about!
Sammy and Kane x

[mytil]

Hi again,

Actually it is best to have both because it is a difficult disease to diagnose. The ACTH is considered diagnostic 80-95% of the time. Half of adrenal tumors will not respond on this test.

The LDDS is considered diagnostic 90-95% of the time (it has a higher sensitivity). But each of these can produce false positives in the presence of non-adrenal conditions.

Keep us posted
Terry

[molly muffin]

Welcome Sammy and Kane :) Wow, sorry I missed seeing your thread till now!

I'd have both tests done and the UC:CR. It's better to get as much as you can out of the tests before starting treatment (if doing the extra tests is an option), so you know where Kane is at medically speaking, values, etc.
Also, you'll want to have your own file now of all the lab results. This will come in handy as time goes by to refer back to, if an ER vet is ever needed (for any reason), etc.

You know have a group of people to follow along on your journey. Who will talk things over with you and let ideas fly back and forth. It helps to have others who have been down this road. :)

Welcome again,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[milosmom]

what a beautiful face !!! i am rather new here and i just have to share with you how wonderful,warm and supportive everyone is.i can completely understand the stress you are going through,as we all do,but it is a comfort to know this is a great place to come and get great information and have questions answered...look forward to future reads...patty and milo(meka too his sister)

[Boriss McCall]

Welcome to the group! You will find so much comfort, support & people with lots of knowledge.:)

[kanesmum]

Hi again everyone and thanks for your support :)

I've just got back from the vet. Kane was due to have his ACTH test done today but after having a good chat with her she said she wants to take a urine culture (taken by needle direct from his bladder). She was going to do it while I waited but he'd just emptied his bladder so I've had to leave him there until they can do it.

She said Cushings is hard to diagnose and they want to make sure they are as certain as they can be before starting treatment. I asked about the LDDS test too - vet was quite impressed I knew about it and asked if I had a medical background haha (thanks for the info guys!!!)

I suppose we'll see what comes back from today's test and take it from there.

I've got a copy of his bloods. I've put the high ones in red:-

GLU 5.08 (Normal 3.89 - 7.94)
URE 7.9 (Normal 2.5 - 9.6)
CREA 114 (Normal 44 - 159)
PHOS 1.57 (Normal 0.81 - 2.19)
CA 2.05 (Normal 1.98 - 3.00)
TP 81 (Normal 52 - 82)
ALB 35 (Normal 22 - 39)
GLOB 46 (Normal 25 - 45)
ALT 72 (Normal 10 - 100)
ALKP 284 (Normal 23 - 212)
TBIL 18 (Normal 0 - 15)
CHOL 6.09 (Normal 2.84 - 8.2
AMYL 952 (Normal 500 - 1500)

Sammy and Kane x

[molly muffin]

Hi, well GLOB, ALKP and TBIL, are all results that can be associated with the Liver.
Globulins can actually be stress, dehydration, arthritis, or liver or something else. I think that in concert with the ALKP and the TBIL being tad high, that your vet must think this has to do with the liver results.
Tbil, is bilirubins and they are secreted into the intestinal tract. and ALKP is a liver enzyme. So, I think you are definitely going to want to have the UC:CR done to first since ACTH could be skewered if there is something else going on. Some other illness that would cause a rise in cortisol to make the body feel better.

See what the vet says and I'm very glad that the plan is to take it slow and make sure of whats what. Sounds like you have a pretty good vet :)
Hey before you know it, you'll have a degree in cushings. Even the possibility of it forces us all to learn as much as possible so as to help our furbabies.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[kanesmum]

Thanks for explaining that Sharlene, that's really helpful :) Things are starting to make more sense now and I've calmed down a bit!

Yes, I'm very fortunate that I have a fantastic vet. I'm always wary of sounding like I'm telling them how to do their job but she was great about it. Encouraged me to do research and said she often finds out more from using the internet than she does from the medical books.

Hopefully I should hear from the vet with the results of the urine cultures tomorrow. She said it could be an infection which is easily treated...fingers crossed!!! I agree that the UC:CR sounds like the best next step otherwise.

Thanks everyone, I will keep you posted!
Sammy and Kane x

[kanesmum]

Hi again everyone :)

The vet phoned me this morning with results from the urine cultures test and it's all clear. I asked about the UC:CR test but the cost of it is not that much different from the ACTH test (she's trying to keep the cost down for me!) so she said we may as well go straight for the ACTH test.

I've been looking at other test results on here and comparing them to Kane's results and although his ALKP was high, it's nowhere near as high as some other pups results...so now I just dont know what to think.

My other half is convinced it's just his age as he isn't urinating in the house all the time. He can be left 4 hours and not go but then other times I can let him out and then he goes in the house half an hour later. Old age doesn't explain the increased water intake though.

Anyway, Kane is booked in to have his ACTH test tomorrow morning so again we'll see what happens and take it from there. Just want to get him right, it's frustrating seeing him like this and not knowing the cause. Oh how I wish he could talk to me!

Sammy and Kane x

[molly muffin]

Hi Sammy,
I know what you mean, I think we all wish they could talk to us and tell us what is going on. It's very frustrating trying to figure things out. Really! The cost of the UC:CR was close to the same as the ACTH. Wow, I would not have thought that.

I took molly in for an ACTH, and her's is high, which suggest cushings, is in fact what one would expect to see in a cushings dog. Then I followed that up with an LDDS and she suppressed really, really well for the entire 8 hours. Not even a budge, so we don't know what to think and here it is months and months later.
It's very difficult to get a handle on what is going on with them sometimes and we just do the best we can with the tools we have. So don't let the frustration get to you.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[lulusmom]

The vet phoned me this morning with results from the urine cultures test and it's all clear. I asked about the UC:CR test but the cost of it is not that much different from the ACTH test (she's trying to keep the cost down for me!) so she said we may as well go straight for the ACTH test.

My other half is convinced it's just his age as he isn't urinating in the house all the time. He can be left 4 hours and not go but then other times I can let him out and then he goes in the house half an hour later. Old age doesn't explain the increased water intake though.

Wow, UC:CR's are much, much cheaper than acth stimulation tests in my area. The cost of a vial of the stimulating agent, cortrosyn, alone used for the stimulation test costs more than a UC:CR. :confused:

Dog with cushing's lose their ability to concentrate their urine which is why they drink so much. They drink more water because they are peeing more so the two go hand in hand. To determine if Kane's increase in drinking is more than behavioral, your vet should have done a complete urine analysis which should include urine specific gravity, sediment and a culture.

My brother is a lot like your husband in that he attributes every little change in behavior to old age. I've chastised him many times and told him that if his old dog is drinking and peeing too much, there is something wrong and he needs to find out what it is. Tell your husband that I'm really old and I don't drink that much....water anyway. :D

Glynda

P.S. I forgot to tell you how beautiful Kane is. He looks like a purebred Blue Merle Australian Shepherd

[kanesmum]

Yeah I was surprised at the costs too, the UC:CR was £68 an the ACTH was £86.

As far as I am aware, a complete urine analysis has been done. I'll double check when the vet rings me with the results of the ACTH on Wed.

I asked the vet if it could actually just be old age (while my other half was stood with me!) and she said no, Kane is drinking and urinating more for a reason and it's just proving difficult trying to work out why. Hopefully that will keep my hubby quiet now Glynda haha!

It's very frustrating Sharlene but comforting to know I'm not alone. I hope you get to the bottom of things with Molly soon :-).

I will post the results once I have them, thanks for all your support. It has helped me so much this last week or so.

Sammy and Kane x

[kanesmum]

Hi again everyone :)

Just got the results from the ACTH and it has come back negative (I don't have the actual figures yet). Had a long chat with the vet about the results from all his tests and she said nothing is indicating any particular problems, cancer etc. She had phoned the lab before phoning me and they have said that it could be a very very early onset of kidney disease. That could explain his increased thirst and his urine being dilute but it's obviously not bad enough to show up on the blood tests.

So, a lot of money later and I still no definitive answer! The good news is that Kane seems to have calmed down on the drinking and has not urinated in the house at all this week.

We have decided to just keep an eye on him for now and take him back at the end of January for a general check over.

A massive thank you to everyone for all your help and support.

Sammy and Kane x

[molly muffin]

yay, so glad the ACTH came back negative. It's one thing eliminated and that is always a good thing.
I know how that is, as we are in the same boat. No diagnosis yet and we just continue on, hoping to figure things out eventually, with a lot of waiting and watching and repeat blood tests.
Keep us informed on how things go! Kane is a beauty and I hope this was just a bump in the road of life and not anything serious.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin