Switched to Homeopathic remedies (Sweet Buddy has passed)

[Concernedmom]

My 12 1/2 yo neut. Maltese has tested positive for cushings and doctor wants to start him on Trilostane. Not sure what dose yet. These are his labs -

His ACTH stim pre 16.9 normal is 1-5
his post is 23 normal is 8-17

His LDDS test 12.2 cortisol sample 2
after 4 hrs his result is 4.4.
And sample 3 after 8 hrs was 6.9.
Cortisol level greater than 1.4 8 hrs post is consistent with cushings

April 7 alp 898.
June 2 alp 968
aug 6 alp 1059
Oct 6 alp 1119
nov 20 alp 1309.

Oct 6 urine cortisol creatinine ratio 16 normal is less than 13
Aug 6 urine cortisol creatinine ratio was 13

I was reluctant to say yes to Trilostane but gave in because trust doctor. Have read everything and wanted to go homeopathic route of changing diet. Going on high protein removing all carbs. Wanted to try Going on melatonin. Trying magnolia- ashwagandha-phosphatidylserine-flax hulls-and lignans. Problem is trying to find a homeopathic doctor. Has anyone tried any of these to combat cushings.? A lot of it makes sense but then I read about Trilostane and think that's the best way to go instead. Can anyone help on this subject? Great forum here with wonderful input.

[addy]

When my Lhasa , Zoe, was diagnosed, the only real symptoms she had was not wanting to jump in the car, seeking out cold places, could not tolerate outdoor heat and she started losing her undercoat and tail fur. Her post cortisol was like 35 ug.dl, some high number. I started her on melatonin and lignans as her intermediate hormones were also increased. She was also having trouble with colitis which bothered me more then her Cushings. Her cortisol went higher and she developed more symptoms as we went along. We started Trilostane one year later. I feed a mixture of raw and Honest Kitchen. I have decreased the raw amount the last year.

I am glad you found your way here. We have many knowledgeable members and everyone will share their experiences. Every dog is different but it helps to have that "collective" thinking nonetheless:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and your baby! :)

There are Holistic things you can do that will help with the signs and discomforts of Cushing's in our babies. Homeopathic methods alone may not offer the best range of options tho. Homeopathic methods treat like with like - ie, if one has a fever, you use a substance that will cause fever.

Flax lignans and melatonin are used to treat a form of Cushing's called Atypical in which the cortisol is normal but one or more of the intermediates hormones are elevated. Melatonin has the potential to lower cortisol on its own but not to a great degree. PS-100, phosphatidylserine, has the same potential and mild effect on cortisol but its big plus is the protection it offers our babies brain cells. I will have to pull out the books and look at magnolia and ashwagandha, then get back to you. I know ashwagndha is sometimes used but am not familiar with magnolia. One herb often touted for Cushing's is licorice - avoid it. Licorice stimulates the adrenals to release more hormones, not decrease the production but you will find this herb in most of the snake oils out there, like Supraglan and Cushex, that claim to cure Cushing's AND Addison's - polar opposite conditions. :rolleyes:

Diet for cush pups needs to be moderate protein, low fats, moderate carbs. Dogs do not require carbs but they are beneficial for the vast majority our babies as they provide good vitamins, minerals, and fuel for energy. Unless there is an issue with carbs for your baby, you don't want to cut them out totally as that leaves the system only fats and proteins to burn for fuel and they have other purposes to fulfill in the body as well as providing energy. ;) Unless your baby is having problems with or from the diet he / she is on now, I recommend leaving it as is until he / she has been on treatment and settled in on a good dose to change the diet. Digestive upsets are signs that the cortisol is too low and digestive upsets are common when switching feed so do change now could cloud a very important picture you need to see clearly.

I'll get back to you on the other herbs you mentioned. I'm glad you found us and look forward to learning more soon!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome to you and your little guy.

Many of our members have opted to go with Vetroyl as their choice treatment. What I would advise is starting at a smaller dose and working up if needed. You really don't know how sensitive they will be, some need smaller doses and others need larger, so in my mind, it works to start low.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Thank you for the warm welcome and introducing your babies. I am grateful for the information you have supplied about diet and cushings because it's all so confusing. My boy had an abdominal ultrasound in June and his kidneys-adrenal glands- and liver looked good except they found 2 nodules on liver. One was 1 cm and the other was two cm. Vet wasn't concerned didn't think cancer but we repeated same ultrasound in August and we were lucky there were no changes. This may be a stupid question but is there a low side to cushings? Meaning his ACTH and LDDS labs,to me, seemed to be low numbers when compared to normal ranges stated by the lab. Wanted to give my boys symptoms they are thinning of hair on back, panting a little more than usual, bruising after blood draws, increase energy and huge appetite. First thing I did when he was diagnosed was start researching and as I stated in the earlier post homeopathic treatment came up everywhere that's why I got so confused. A Dr Karen Becker has a 3 part video that does a wonderful job explaining cushings and she then talks about treatment with the herbs I talked about earlier. I believe she stated it like this, She says that carbs prompts insulin release and insulin release prompts cortisol release. That's why you should remove all carbs from the diet. No wheat no rice no corn. Should this be followed, I don't know but I think it might be worth a discussion because if I'm confused about it maybe other people are. The members here have so much experience with cushings I thought maybe I could get some help from people who have been through this or are going through this with their babies.

[Squirt's Mom]

Morning,

Here is the herb info I found -

No mention of Magnolia in any of the texts other than a warning to avoid during pregnancy.

Ashwaganda stimulates corticosteriod production, which is exactly the opposite of what our cush babies need so this herb would be counterproductive in the treatment of Cushing's from what I can see. It is used to treat Addison's, which is the opposite of Cushing's.

The western herbs these vets use are Ginko Biloba, Milk Thistle, Dandelion, Rehmannia, Astragalus and Chaste Tree. The TMC (Traditional Chinese Medicine) vets use Long Dan Xie Gan and Mai Men Dong Tang. There are other herbs, supplements, and diets that have been used but these are the ones I found in my text books.

Please understand that herbs are drugs in their own right and deserve the same respect as pharmaceuticals. In other words, it isn't a good idea to start giving herbs without having a professional on your side helping. You need to seek out a Holistic vet just as you would a conventional, allopathic vet if you wish to try this approach and not start using these herbs on your own. ;)

When I read the name of Dr. Karen Becker a bell went off in my head but I can't remember what the connection is. However, if she is recommending Ashwaganda to treat Cushing's, I would have to question the veracity of her research. It may be that I have run across her name in connection to canine nutrition along the way and there may be others here with a better memory and can offer some input on Dr. Becker's Cushing's expertise.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Leslie, your memory is good, because we did have a brief discussion re: Dr. Becker's Cushing's treatment recommendations on this thread:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4286

Although Dr. Becker provides very helpful general info re: Cushing's, Glynda and I both have had concerns about Dr. Becker's specific treatment recommendations. So the question you are voicing here is consistent with my own reservations, as well.

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Please bear with me in replying to posts I've never used message boards. This information is exactly what I was looking for and couldn't find. I'm sure it was user error. I was so happy to see that others have watched Dr Becker's videos. My big scare was the side effects of the drugs and them being referred to as toxic. The cushings dog being a senior you worry about how sick will they get and if the drugs will increase the size of the pituitary tumor. After reading the replies I feel so much more comfortable about starting him on Trilostane. (Which will be sometime next week). Everyone gave me so much I am very grateful. I will keep you posted on how he does. Thank you.

[Concernedmom]

Leslie I forgot to mention that I totally agree with you about not giving any herbs or medicines (for that matter) to your pet without checking with your vet. Thanks for saying that.
And
Marianne Thanks for the links you included. It gave great info

[Concernedmom]

Hi -I was wondering if anyone can give an opinion on ACTH test and Trilostane. My boy started treatment Dec 5 he's 16#. 30mg day
Doc increased to 60 mg day. So far he's had no side effects which is wonderful. Have been crazy with worry about this. Panting has decreased. Appetite still seems the same, hungry. Now on 60 for 4 days. He seems very lazy when he's had lots of energy. Just doesn't seem happy.
I wonder if 60 is too high. What is our target no. supposed to be?
Any help for me? Thanks


First ACTH test. Nov 26
Pre. 16.9
Post. 23


Second test. Dec 5
Pre. 9.4
Post. 10.8

Moderator's Note: I have merged your update on your baby into your baby's original thread. We, normally, like to keep all posts on a pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for other members to refer back to the pup's history, if needed.

[labblab]

Hello again! I am a bit confused re: the date of your boy's second ACTH test. I understand that the first ACTH on 11-26 was his diagnostic ACTH. But you've told us that he started the trilostane on 12-5, which is also the date you've given for the second ACTH test. That is very puzzling, so I am wondering if perhaps you've misdated that second test?

Dechra (manufacturer of brandname Vetoryl) recommends that the first monitoring ACTH test be performed 10-14 days after treatment has begun. At that point, as long as the post-ACTH result is greater than 1.45 ug/dl and the dog is clinically well, Dechra recommends leaving the dose unchanged for the remainder of thirty days of treatment. This is because cortisol levels tend to continue to drift downward during those first weeks, and therefore dosage increases are not recommended until the true effect of the initial dose is known.

So not only am I confused about the testing date, I am very concerned about the dosing increase. First off, Dechra is now verbally recommending that dogs start out on doses that corresond to a formula of 1 mg. per pound. On that basis, they would likely have recommended that your dog would have started out at no more than 20 mg. per day. And that dose would have been left unchanged for the first month as long as the cortisol level did not drop too low. I am guessing that perhaps that second ACTH test was actually performed on 12-15 (ten days after starting treatment)? But even if that was the case, doubling your dog's dose in less than a month's time is an extremely large increase and inconsistent with Dechra's recommendations.

So if your dog is acting "off," I am extremely worried that he is being overdosed. I am going to include a link to Dechra's Treatment and Monitoring Flowchart so you can see their dosing recommendations for yourself.

http://www.dechra-us.com/files//dechraUSA/downloads/Client%20Literature/47902_VETORYL_10mg_Treatment_and_Monitoring_Brochu re_Update_3_2_ps.pdf

Since we are now heading into a pre-holiday weekend, if you have any doubts at all about your dog's appearance or behavior, I strongly encourage you to at least temporarily halt the trilostane dosing. You can always start up again at any time. But you don't want to risk an overdose during a time when veterinary care is not readily available. And based on Dechra's recommendations, I would not feel comfortable with dosing at an amount higher than the 30 mg. you started out with for the duration of the first month of treatment (assuming that the second ACTH truly was performed after ten days of treatment). Please do clarify that testing date, OK?

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Hi Marianne - my mistake. You're right about the date i didn't pick up on that. His first diagnostic test was Nov 26. Started Trilostane 30 mg on Dec 5 tested 13 days after dosing on Dec 17th. Based on the Dec 17th ACTH test then increased to 60 mg on Dec 19th. Next test will be Dec 31. I was a little confused by the 30 mg also so I emailed Dechra before starting and they said the dose should be 1.9 mg/# which brings us to the 30 mg. I will definitely look into what you said and maybe email Dechra? I will keep an eye on him. He's eating good. No vomiting and no diaherra so that's a good sign but will now have a discussion regarding the 60. Thanks for your help

[labblab]

If your contact with Dechra was via email, I have to wonder whether their reply of 1.9 mg./# was actually a typo and they instead meant to write 1.0 mg./#. Because 1.0 mg./# is what they have been telling our other members (myself included)...

Regardless, since 30 mg. is where you started and your dog's 13-day post-ACTH was up at 10.8, clearly he was not being overdosed at that time. But please do consult with them ASAP about doubling the dose so early in the course of treatment.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I second what Marianne has said. Every dog reacts differently to the medicine and since the cortisol can continue to drop on the same dosage of 30mg, for at least 30 days, it's very risky to up the dosage so quickly.
I am guessing that the reason the dosage was upped was due to the ACTH pre draw number being high still?
Many of our members have had luck just directly calling Dechra and talking to them too. So that is an option.
Hope your little one continues to do fine.
If the appetite decreases to where he doesn't want food, diarrhea, vomiting, any of those things, immediately stop medication and get an ACTH test.

Sharlene

[labblab]

You are again on my mind first thing this morning, and I remain very worried about this dosing increase. Your dog is now getting a dose that works out to 4 mg/#, and that is even higher than the highest margin of Dechra's published recommended starting range (1-3 mg/#). And this big change is being made only two weeks into treatment.

I'm sure Sharlene is right that your vet made this change because your dog's post-ACTH was higher than 9.1 and it sounds as though he is still exhibiting hunger. But as we talked about earlier, Dechra really discourages dosing increases until after the first month of treatment in order for the cortisol level to settle down at its lowest point on that initial dose. And even if/when you increase, I do believe a smaller increase would be recommended -- like maybe up to 40 mg. I'm guessing your vet doubled the dose because you already have 30 mg. capsules on hand. But Vetoryl is also sold in 10 mg. capsule strength, so you don't have to increase by such a large amount.

I know I'm being a nag, but I'd feel so much better if you'd revert back to the 30 mg. dosing until you have a chance to consult with Dechra and are safely past the Christmas holiday "break." :o

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Hi Marianne & Sharlene. thanks for the fast reply and info. Sorry i haven't written earlier. I asked my doctor awhile back if the medicine continues to decrease levels after their first ACTH test and she said No. She said after the 14 day mark it is what it is. I was surprised when you said something different because I also thought it would continue to decrease the levels. My doc is knowledgable when it comes to cushings but I think I should put a call in to Dechra anyways. Is the pre and post levels supposed to be same numbers so if one is higher than the other the dose would be changed to try and fix it? Anyways you will be happy to hear yesterday I changed the dose back to 30 mg and he's much better. Back to the way he was before the change was made. We are going to increase by 10 mg and see how that works first. Have to order it because I only have 30 mg. Can't thank you enough for your help. This cushings is so hard.

[lulusmom]

If your vet routinely treats her cushingoid patients with Vetoryl, I am very surprised that she has no idea that cortisol can and usually does continue to drop in the first 30 days of treatment. We've seen a few rare cases where cortisol continued to drop well after 30 days. You did the right thing by not doubling the dose so good for you! I definitely think it is a good idea to call Dechra.

Glynda

[molly muffin]

We know that this happens due the large number of members here who have dogs on vetroyl. You can also have a dog who stabilizes at a specific dosage and then months later or even a year or more later, the cortisol will either drop or it will no longer be controlled at that dose. It is a very tricky disease to get control of and keep. I think it is good that you are planning a smaller increase to see how that works.
Do keep us posted.

Happy Holidays,
Sharlene

[Bailey's Mom]

Merry Christmas and the happiest of New Years!!!!!!!
May all of your Christmas wishes come true...
May we all stay away from any and all cliffs,
Peace and Joy to all!
-Susan

[molly muffin]

Merry Christmas.
Hope all is going well!

hugs,

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Sorry haven't posted in awhile but wanted to let you know that I did call Dechra and info given here was absolutely correct. Dechra also said that a lot of doctors like to look at just numbers and not the clinical signs whereas they look at both. So when I told them the ACTH levels from Dec 17 Pre 9.4 and Post 10.8 and advised them the clinical signs were very good they said my pup should stay on the 30 mg dose and recheck him on the 30 day mark because the levels do continue to drop. They have seen some drop up to 6 months. I did take him off the 60 mg once I read what everyone told me and I appreciate all the concern given. We did do another ACTH test Jan 4 which would be the 30 day mark and got good numbers Pre was 1.2 and Post was 5 .7 so he stayed on 30 mg and is still there. As you can see the numbers did drop just like you said. That was wonderful to see. I do have another question though and I hope someone can help me with it. The last couple of days my pup is drinking and peeing more. Has peed in the house. His increased appetite seems to have returned just a little. I also have noticed some shivering throughout the day but not constant. Is it possible that his levels could have increased? I am having a recheck done of the ACTH test in a few days. He looks really good. His hair is growing on his back, his pot belly has decreased. I am very nervous now that I've seen some symptoms come back.

[Harley PoMMom]

The last couple of days my pup is drinking and peeing more. Has peed in the house. His increased appetite seems to have returned just a little. I also have noticed some shivering throughout the day but not constant. Is it possible that his levels could have increased? I am having a recheck done of the ACTH test in a few days. He looks really good. His hair is growing on his back, his pot belly has decreased. I am very nervous now that I've seen some symptoms come back.

With the increased drinking, urination, and appetite it is very possible that his cortisol has risen. Having another ACTH test would be the only way to know.

Increased drinking/urination can also be caused by an UTI, does he seem to be peeing a little a lot of times? or seem to be straing to urinate?

[addy]

Jan 4 which would be the 30 day mark and got good numbers Pre was 1.2 and Post was 5 .7

That was just a few weeks ago. At 5.7 you would not think in a few weeks his cortisol is going up high enough to cause symptoms that were controlled a few weeks ago but we never know. Our pups don't always read the Cushing book:):):) My Zoe pogos up and down all the time.

Sometimes the vets go by the old Dechra chart which shows a much higher dosing rate. My IMS made that error in October when she went to check a reference number. She was in a hurry.:rolleyes:

Is it all day or more in the evening that you notice the rebound in symptoms?

[Concernedmom]

I am so nervous I set up the ACTH test for tomorrow. I just never thought the numbers could jump in such a short amount of time either. He seems to be peeing small amounts a lot of the time during the day. No straining. Yesterday he was drinking and peeing from 11 am till he went to bed at 9 pm. But today it's a little different. He doesn't seem to be drinking/peeing as much. He gets his medicine at 6 am. What I found so weird is the way it came on. Quick. He was fine then he wasn't. It wasn't gradual at all. But I guess I won't know anything until I get the test done so the results should be interesting. I can't tell you enough how nice it is to have people to talk with about this. So thanks. I will let you know the results

[Concernedmom]

Hello everyone I need a little help again with side effect questions. I'm Really confused. I had my ACTH test on Jan 25th and pre is 7.3 post 9.2. Higher than his last one on Jan 4th pre 1.2 post 5.7. He's still on 30 mg/day. As I said in my previous post his side effects of drinking/peeing came on quick Jan 21-22-23 then subsided a little bit on Jan 24. By Sat. Jan 26 no shivering, his drinking/peeing was back to normal and continued to stay that way through Tue. Jan 29. Then Wed Jan 30 increased again but no shivering and he's still this way. His appetite is increasing just a tad. Does this sound normal for a cushings dog? Do side effects go up and down like this? Should I be concerned? How will I know it's time to worry about it if the side effects go up and down like this? What should i look for? I can't afford to get an ACTH test every time I see side effects changing like this. We all know how costly it is. His next check up will be 2 months. Help. Thanks

[molly muffin]

If the cortisol numbers came up then the symptoms can too.
Quick question, when they did his ACTH test, did they also do complete bloodwork and has their been any check for UTI? That can also cause things to go wacky and cush dogs are quite prone to UTI's.
That would be my first check probably. I see Lori mentioned this as a possibility on the 24th. I still think it is something to check into and doesn't cost as much to get done as an ACTH.

Since you Just had an ACTH done, it is doubtful that you'd gain anything from another at the moment anyway.

The first one the numbers were very good so for these to come up like this. I'd be suspicious as to whether something else was going on.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

Can you tell us how long after the dose of Trilo the ACTH was given? The test must be given within a window of 4-6 hours after the Trilo has been taken.

Also, did your dog eat before the ACTH or were you told to fast him? If he was fasted, the results are not accurate.

Is he still taking herbs? If so, which ones?

Was he ever checked for an UTI?

It isn't uncommon for Trilo pups to need dose adjustments. They will start to show signs again and with a post of 9.2 on the last ACTH, I would say that is certainly a possibility. Dechra says the pups can go as high as 9.1 IF all signs are well controlled. So he is out of range and the signs you are seeing could mean he needs a dose increase. HOWEVER, before we address that, could you please answer the above questions. Thanks.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Concernedmom]

Hi
I completely forgot Harley did ask about a UTI. Now I feel really bad. I never had it done. I wanted to check that at the same time of the Acth test and didn't remember to do it. I didn't know that cushing dogs are prone to have them. I am going to drop a urine sample off tomorrow and get the test done to be safe. The only other blood work I had done was the electrolyte test and I think that was around Jan 21st which was normal. I never started him on any herbs. The only thing he's on is denamarin for his liver values being high. He's also taking deramax and adequan injections once/month. For the acth test He was given his vetoryl at 6am with food, dropped off at the doctors at 11 am and I picked him up at 2pm
I hope I answered everyone's questions. Today he's still drinking/peeing more and his appetite seems to be slowly creeping up. Today he did some shivering yesterday not so much. Some parts of the side effects are changing daily. But what do I know?? If the UTI comes back normal then I don't see how we can keep going on like this at his original 30mg dose? Wouldn't he need to go on an extra dose even the smallest dose to see if it helps with the clinical signs? Because now his next ACTH test won't be until 2months. It is such an awful feeling seeing your pups like this. I know everyone knows this. They look so sad and it changes them overnight. Then it make us feel sad. I just keep thinking if he started with the clinical signs and high number in the beginning. And After 30 days on vetoryl the numbers and clinical signs have continued to decrease. And now that the numbers are going up and the clinical signs are going up I'm hoping staying on this one dose will help it to continually come down again along with the signs and get to somewhere manageable for the dog. Sometimes I just ramble on.
Thanks for listening.

[labblab]

I'm really glad you're having the urine sample checked, because a UTI does make a lot of sense given the symptoms you're describing: frequent urination of small amounts and sudden onset of the problem. As you're already suspecting, Cushing's symptoms don't tend to rapidly come-and-go.

But less than optimal control of cortisol may also be an underlying issue, too. First, though, were the previous monitoring ACTH tests performed within this same time frame? If so, then the results can be directly compared. But if not, then we're left with some question marks. First of all, it sounds as though this most recent ACTH may have been completed a bit outside the recommended time frame of 4-6 hours post-dosing. If he was dosed at 6, dropped off at 11, and picked up at 2 -- it sounds as though he might have been tested as long as 6-8 hours after dosing. So if that's a different time frame than the earlier tests, it could help account for the numbers being somewhat higher. Trilostane peaks in the bloodstream as quickly as 1 1/2 hours after dosing and has already exited the body of many dogs within 12 hours afterwards. So the later the test is performed, the higher the cortisol level is likely to be regardless of what the maximal effect was earlier in the day.

Having said all that, if the urinalysis is negative for infection and you continue to see rebounding symptoms, I do think an increase makes sense (maybe adding in another 10 mg.). But from now on, I encourage you to double-check with the vet to make sure the ACTH testing is truly being completed within that 4-6 hour timeframe. Here's a link to the Dechra product insert with that testing info:

http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

Marianne

[Bailey's Mom]

Kudos for a nice, complete, informative answer Marianne!

-Susan

[Concernedmom]

Hi Marianne
I think my UTI results will be in tomorrow so no news yet. Yes all the ACTH tests were done in the same timeframe. This is how I understand the ACTH testing to work so correct me if I'm wrong. You dose the dog with food, bring to the vet anytime within the 4-6 hour window after dosing. The first blood sample is taken, then an injection of ACTH is given, and the second blood sample is taken 2 hours following the injection.
Like you said it still doesn't mean he doesn't need an increase with the clinical signs showing. You know how we just know our pups and I can just feel it. Thank you so much for your input. I will also start slowly increasing like everyone suggests.

[Harley PoMMom]

Cortrosyn and Synacthen and another agent called ACTHAR gel are synthetic forms of ACTH that when injected, stimulate the adrenal glands to release their reserves of cortisol into the blood stream.

When a vet uses ACTHAR gel it is a two wait before the post draw is done. The other stimulating agents have a one hour post draw wait.

For accurate results from a stim test, the entire ACTH stim test (including pre and post draws) have to be done within that 4-6 hour window. Some endocrinologists recommend a 3-5 hour time-frame.

So, if a dog is feed and dosed with their Trilostane at 9am the post has to be done between 1pm - 3pm, with 3pm being the latest.

It can be confusing so I hope that I have helped you and not confused you more.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Concernedmom]

Hi everyone I need quick a response on side effects of Trilostane. As you can see from prior posts my pup is on 30mg still with a pre of 7.3 post 9.2 from Jan 25. Had UTI test came out neg. Had electrolyte test that's ok. The last couple of weeks I've noticed he shivers. It's like if you took a shower and get a chill. It's around the same time every day. I dose him at 6 am. and it starts to happen late morning into early afternoon. Not constant just every now and then. Yesterday morning he was having a good day until around 3pm when he got up from laying down and could hardly walk. He was shivering, walk a few steps, stop, had his head hanging low. Began to pant, cry. Every time I went near him he would walk away, like don't touch me. He has arthritis in his back legs and I knew it was getting worse because the past week he would limp, not be able to get up easily. He's on deramax and adequan injection for this. Anyways, I rushed him to the vet and after xrays it showed enlarged liver and heart. He had food in his stomach that hadn't passed yet. But that was all. He got an injection for pain. I got tramadol to take home. This Morning 6am he got trilostane, ate a little food, peed/pooped ok walked around, came on bed to go back to sleep. Got up at 10 am but he didn't get up as he usually does so I let him sleep. At 11am I checked on him and he had moved on the bed and he was shivering, panting, crying. Same thing as yesterday. Put him off bed and he could hardly walk again. He would just stand there like don't touch me. So I gave another tramadol. I called vet to let them know. He wouldn't even lay down. He would just sit, shiver and pant. He did this for 2 hrs not wanting to move unless he really had to. Vet thinks its a reaction to the trilostane because it's happening the same time everyday. Makes sense. We are going to take him off the trilostane for 2 days to see what happens. If he stays the same then it wasn't the Trilostane it has to be pain but if he stops then we have to do something else for the cushings. Have any of you heard of this kind of reaction to Trilostane? His ACTH levels were high so it couldn't be that they dropped, could it? He isn't even interested in eating right now. I can understand that. He finally layed down. Help

[Squirt's Mom]

Did the vet check for pancreatitis? Has there been any sign of nausea or loose stool? Have there been any changes in his feed or treats?

[Concernedmom]

Hi
No i didn't check for that. He doesn't have any nausea/ loose stools. He pooped a short while ago and it was firm and normal for him. His food has been the same as well as treats. He didn't feel like eating all day today but was interested at 4 pm and ate his regular food and drank some water. He's feeling a little better right now. No shivering, just sleeping but when he does get up to walk he does look like he's in a lot of pain. Prior to yesterday I was going to increase his Trilostane by 10 more mg making a total of 40 mg/ day but have just been waiting for it. Decided to do that based on the shivers he was having the week before and because his peeing/ drinking had increased. I'm wondering now if 2 things happened at the same time with him. Maybe he needed the increase and is also starting to feel more pain from the arthritis at the same time and maybe something happened while I was gone yesterday where he really hurt himself . So the regular shivering started late morning mixed with the pain of hurting himself (maybe) and that's making his little body not handle everything all at once because he is walking very gingerly. I don't really know I'm just grasping at straws and guessing at everything because it is just very strange. Thank you for your input

[Concernedmom]

Has anyone heard of Adrenal Harmony Gold drops for dogs with cushings? I found this on the Petwellbeing website and there are a lot of good reviews but wanted to check here first.

[labblab]

I'm afraid we cannot recommend these drops. They were previously marketed as "Supraglan" but have been renamed. There is no objective scientific evidence that these drops are helpful. And since your boy is having some issues right now, I'd hesitate about introducing a wildcard variable into the mix right now. Sorry! :o

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Hi Marianne
Good to know about harmony. Thanks. I think My husband and I might not restart the trilostane. We didn't give the 6 am dose today and all his symptoms stopped. He was even playing today. He's still going slow because of his arthritis but he's 95% better being off the drug than he was in the last 2 days. His quality of life just seems to have gotten worse once he started on Dec 5. He had 2 good weeks where we could honestly say "wow he looks happy" and then the rest of the time we would look at him and say "he just looks awful." He has no spark in his eyes. He just doesn't feel well. Maybe he's gonna be one of those dogs that have the adverse reaction and can't take trilostane. He's almost 13 years old and we need his quality of life to be good for him and right now it's not. There is a holistic vet in the area that I'm going to look into and see if they treat cushings. Maybe this is the way to go for my pup. I'm very sad about it. I wish I could say it worked and he's well controlled because that's what we all want. It's just heartbreaking to watch this because even though I say he's not shivering and walking better and all that let's face it he still has cushings and that means he will be peeing/drinking more appetite will come back pot belly. So we are not fooled into thinking he's well we just want him not to feel "sick as a dog" everyday. He does have the enlarged liver now and the enlarged heart so all things must be considered when you think of age and quality of life. We did have a little old lady Maltese in 2003 that we rescued at 14 years old that ended up with cushings after we had her for one year. We did everything for this little lady and treated her with Trilostane buying it from the UK because it was not approved here. It was the pituitary tumor cushings. She had the beginning of cataracts and loss of hearing when we got her and at the end she was deaf and blind. We lost her at age 16. But as time went by and we talked about our little girl and watched video we came to realize that she was a happy sparkling lady when she came to us and was a broken down lifeless dog when she died. We watched the transition on video of her beginning treatment and ending and the Trilostane made her really sick. But we didn't know any better. We treated her for 2 years when she went into Addison's and then we let her go. So when our boy came down with cushings we thought long and hard about what to do based on our little girl. We didn't want to treat him and have him get sick fast and die. But in speaking to vet we were convinced this would be the best thing to help him. I feel like I'm watching an instant replay of what happened in 2003. All dogs are different but my experience so far hasn't been Well. He is repeating so far everything as she and we don't want to watch it again. Ive never read any posts yet of people discussing these kinds of side effects or feelings about their treatment with their dogs? Does anyone ever looks at their dog and say. "Oh i feel the spark has gone today and she's not eating is anyone else dealing with this". OR "Oh my dog isn't playing anymore is anyone seeing this too". Sometimes I feel like it's just my pup feeling this way and its just me feeling the quality of life issues and I just want to cry and scream and vent. Ugh. I'm going crazy thinking about this stuff because it is so more than just the peeing/ drinking appetite hair. So much more. Please don't mind me just venting.

[Mel-Tia]

Hi there

My staffie Tia was on vetoryl for over 2 years before I started to notice her becoming intolerant to the drug, shaking would start after she ate and she would sometimes whine like she was in pain. She also did not fancy her food and her skin flared up again even though her levels were controlled. it got to the point where we felt the drug was causing her more issues than it was resolving.

Each dog reacts differently and only you know your dog. I know from what I have read that the excess cortisol helps mask their pain so it could just be that adjustment.

I think the hardest thing is not knowing what they think. I wish they had a way of telling us what is going on. This is a horrible disease and in my own experience most vets don't have a lot of experience so it feels even more exasperating

I hope your little one is having a good day today

Mel and Tia xx

[Squirt's Mom]

There is another option to the Trilo that works just as well. It is called Lysodren. Some folks think that Lyso is worse, riskier, than Trilo but that is not true. Both have the exact same potential risks up to and including total adrenal necrosis and death. It might prove to be a bit less expensive to use as well. ;)

We have seen pups here who either could not take one drug or the other, or who responded better to one over the other. It isn't that uncommon. You would want to give your boy 30 off all the meds before making the switch to Lyso if you choose to try it - and I would. At 13, a Maltese could have several more years that are considered a "natural life span" and with treatment, he can live to that point and beyond. Cushing's is not a death sentence with proper treatment. ;)

We will support your decision concerning treatment regardless but I wanted to be sure you know there is another option that is long tried and true. I also want to be sure you understand what will happen in your baby boy's system without treatment so you are prepared. Here is a link about what to expect in an untreated cush pup -

Complications from untreated Cushing’s –
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195

I'm glad your boy is feeling better today! Please keep in touch and let us know how things are going.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Mel-Tia]

Lysodren is not prescribed in the uk. The only treatment is vetoryl. Hope you are based somewhere else so you have the option should you wish to use it

Mel and Tia x x

[addy]

I'm sorry you are having such a bad time. Sometimes it is hard to know what is going on, is the dog having side effects, have other health issues been uncovered, are they having to adjust to lower cortsiol, it goes on and on.

Treating our pups helps elevate symptoms and hopefully provides some therapeutic value in regard to all the internal issues that can crop up with uncontrolled cortisol.

There may be times, not treating a dog is kinder, if the dog has severe allergies, or degenerative disk issues, severe arthritis, cancer, etc.

Not all dogs will do well on Trilostane. I see Leslie has already explained another option, Lysodren. It may be a better option for your pup.

Whatever you decide, you know your dog best and are the best judge of the quality of life your dog has.

I met a doctor at an urgent care clinic last fall; I was having some health issues. We got to talking between tests and started discussing dogs and then Cushings. She had an older dog with Cushings but decided not to treat her dog because to her the side effects of the drugs sounded worse then what she considered her dog's symptoms to be. Her dog panted all night and peed constantly, drank water. Her dog ended up passing away from a heart attack.
My point to this story is not to scare you or intimidate you. It is to simply point out this was a human doctor who was afraid of the drugs. I struggled with that concept.

The drugs we use sound very frightening and have the potential to do serious harm and may cause bad side effects. But they can also provide a really good quality of life to some dogs. We never know which pups will have a positive outcome or a negative one. So all you can do is try your best and to make informed decisions.

My advice to everyone would be to not make decisions based on fear but on knowledge.

We are here for you whatever path you take. We only want what is best for you and your pup.

[molly muffin]

Hi, I am getting caught up on what is going on with your little boy. I hope that he is having some good days now off the drug. How is that going? Has the shakes stopped completely yet? Does he seem happier? There is nothing wrong with stopping to see if the Trilostane is what is causing the problems or if perhaps the high cortisol has covered up the pain from severe arthritis. When you look at treating cushings, you have to look at the over all affect on quality of life and long term health benefits.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi. I'm back. My boy has been off the Trilostane since Saturday and doing so much better. Shivering has stopped, he is walking fine. His back leg isn't slipping out from underneath him anymore. He wants to play a little bit. That spark in him is showing up just a little. We stopped the tramadol that we started on Thursday. His drinking/peeing doesn't seem to be excessive right now. His appetite seems normal so far. We all agree it was definitely a reaction to the Trilostane. We made an appointment to consult with a holistic vet and to see what that route can offer us. We are just so afraid to try the Lysodren at this point. I want to thank everyone for the kind words. It helped a lot.

[Concernedmom]

Hi
I'm finally back with an update after seeing the holistic vet.
My pup is doing very good since being off Trilostane. We stopped treatment Feb 16 His drinking/peeing/appetite has increased just slightly but not to the extent it was before we began treatment. He's also not shivering everyday and seems happier. Feb 28 we went to the holistic vet and he says he can manage symptoms but the cortisol levels won't decrease. He's had good results putting dogs on a good food program and giving them certain homeopathic remedies. He has also treated dogs with Trilostane before so he's not against conventional medicine. He gave me a homemade recipe geared toward heart health but will benefit cushings too. He gave us homeopathic remedies to manage my pups cushings which we are going to try. We started them March 1st. We don't know if they will work but the vet said there's been good results managing the drinking/peeing/ appetite and anxiety with Cush dogs. To us it is worth trying because we already decided not to treat with lysodren. This is an individual decision and everyone needs to do what's best for themselves. I am in no way knocking down Trilostane or lysodren we just decided it wasn't for us. I will be happy to post the homemade recipe along with the names of the remedies I am using if anyone is interested. I didn't want to post anything assuming people wanted this information. I will will post an update letting you know how my pup is doing in hopes it will help someone else.

[molly muffin]

Hi! I'm so glad that things are going better. You really never know how any given dog will react to the medications. Most dogs can use at least one of the medicines for cushings, but I wouldn't say that every one can. There will always be the pup that doesn't read the manuals.

We know that there really isn't anything that will decrease the cortisol other than these two meds, but there are treatments for the symptoms and I do think that not everyone who comes here is going to try these two meds, or they might have a similar experience as you had, or their dog might be older and the arthritis would be worse than the cortisol, any number of things.

So, yes, I would definitely be interested in knowing what you are trying and then going forward what the results are.

Not everyone that reads these threads and comes here for help, is comfortable with posting even, sometimes they just read and get ideas and learn all they can. So, if something can control symptoms, help with them, then please let us know.

One of our members has posted what she is using with her dog in addition to Trilostane too.
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94435&postcount=227
Keep in mind these are in addition to, not in replacement of Trilostane. So maybe those are some you might mention to your vet and see what he thinks.

I do think your vet is being very honest with you, in that you won't be able to lower the cortisol, but maybe help with controlling any symptoms.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi Sharlene
Thanks for your post and the link you offered. I didn't know the thread was out there until you provided it. I'm always looking for healthy ways to take care of my pup.

Here is the homemade recipe for the food: Pork & Sweet Potato / low sodium for heart conditions, esophagitis, skin conditions: Pork loin boiled 4 oz. sweet potato, cooked 1/2 cup - White potato, cooked 1 1/2 cup - Canola oil 2 tsp or fish oil 2 capsules - Kelp tablet (containing 150 mcg iodine per tablet or just use 150 mcg iodine tablets) - 3/4 tsp of Animals Essential Seaweed Calcium supplement (powder) - Canine Geriatrics Basics (1) capsule made by Thorne Research - Zinc 50 mg one (1) tablet.
I couldn't find the 150 mcg kelp tablet anywhere so ended up buying the 150 mcg potassium iodide tablets. Zinc tabs I got at Walmart. The seaweed calcium and geriatric basics I bought from the holistic vet but you can find them on line. You can make in bigger batches and freeze. The only thing I don't know is how much to feed a dog. My pup was sure happy when he tried this the first time. He just loves it and I'm very happy to make it for him if it will keep him healthier. He deserves it in his golden years.
This is what our pup is now on for his cushings without using Trilostane.
The Snake and The Dragon Teapills (1) tablet every 12 hours - Canine Geriatric Basics 1/2 capsule daily - Adrenocorticotrophin 30c (1) pellet every 12 hours crush & put in mouth​ - Quercus Robur 30X (1) pellet every 12 hours crush & put in mouth - very important that the pellets are crushed and administered through mouth/ tongue. Best way to do this is to put the pellets between 2 spoons and crush. Then have dog lick spoon. My pup will lick the spoon. If they won't put your finger in the crushed Powder and rub on their gums or get on their tongue. Don't put the pellets in food. It will be ineffective. You can put a couple of pellets in their drinking water for the first few days to give a jump start so to speak along with the regular dose. He is also taking Vitamin E 100 iu daily (if you can't find 100 iu get 200 iu and give every 2 days). I also give a Fish Pill daily 1000 mg and a Glycan-Aid HA Advanced Formula Joint Supplement for his arthritis 1/2 chewable. I buy this from Handicappedpets.com.
Here's an article that was given to me by the vet discussing the two remedies above if anyone is interested in reading. I wish everyone great success with whatever method you choose to use. Be it holistic or conventional. There's something for everyone. Let's face it we are all here just trying to make life more comfortable for our babies with the time we all have left together. I will keep you posted on how my baby is doing. Today he's doing well and we notice a difference in him. A good one. We take one day at a time.

http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2008/BITSNPIECES/CUSHINGS/cushingsresearch.htm

[Concernedmom]

Just found out that if you give the Canine Geriatric Basics (1/2) capsule daily or a multi vitamin daily then you can omit that from the Pork recipe.

[molly muffin]

Thanks for posting this. I do think that consulting a nutritionist that can make a specific diet for your own pup based upon, breed, medical issues is well worth it and can have a lot of long term benefits. This though is very helpful and I'm sure many will read it and learn from it.

Thanks again!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Even though we consulted a holistic vet I am still learning from this site. As a matter of fact I was just reading a post from a few years ago on what to feed our Cush dogs. It seems that is a popular question people are asking all the time. It is so confusing because one diet may not be the best for another. So I contine reading and got some great links to go to like dogaware and wholedogjournal. I appreciate so much the people that come on and write about their experiences so we can all take away something. Who knows I may change the diet of my pup it may not agree with him. Time will tell. I had no idea it was this much work for a homemade diet. From buying all the ingredients preparing everything then cooking, cleaning up, dividing up the portions. I made 2 batches today and was so disappointed at the end I got 8 days worth of food. It took me so long to do. I don't know what I was thinking I just thought I would have more days. Everyone who makes their dogs food I applaud you. It is hard work. Especially when you don't feel well on top of it.

[Squirt's Mom]

LOL Yeah, it can be a lot of work! But I have learned to keep things cooked, portioned, and frozen for use ahead of time. I cook two pans of potatoes, 10-15 leg quarters, a big pot of rice, and so on then divide into weekly portions and freeze. That way I'm not having to cook every day of the week nor does it take all day long. After you have used the same recipe for a bit, it starts to come second nature and you know exactly what you need. I use the same mixing bowls, spoons, mashers, and so on....but then I'm just a tad bit OCD about some things. ;)

[molly muffin]

That is probably one reason I haven't tried making my own food. That and I know I need to be giving her SO to keep her drinking enough to keep the crystals at bay. It just sounds completely exhausting. I applaud those of you who can do it and do it all the time. I guess it becomes second nature.
Sorry that you aren't feeling good yourself, that is the pits.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi to All. I hope everyone smiles today when they look at their furbabies and give them a great big hug.

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin'!

I hope you have a great day with your sweet boy! How is the new diet working out for him? Mine are both enjoying their new menus....especially Trink the first week as I miscalculated and made her meals larger than they should have been....then wondered why that week's batch didn't last a week. :confused::rolleyes: She's not gonna lose weight that way! :eek::p Always an adventure at our house! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Concernedmom]

Hi Leslie
I'm sure Trink loved that you made a big (booboo)
My boy is doing really good thank you for asking. He also loves his homemade diet. The minute I take it out of the refrigerator he starts to make these crying noises. We started off feeding him a 1/3 cup (3) x day because the holistic vet didn't tell us how much to feed him then we started thinking the portions looked awfully small so we emailed him to ask. He told us 1 1/2 cups / day but boy that seems way too much so we're doing a little more than a third but not quite a half cup 3 x day. He's 15.2# now. He doesn't need to lose weight. We'll see how that works for him. Homemade diets really is hard work. I can't imagine cooking for more than 1 dog.
He doesn't pant and he doesn't have the big appetite anymore. His peeing habits are normal now. When we first started him on these remedies his drinking decreased considerably but once we introduced the homemade diet he hardly touches his water dish. He must be getting all his hydration from the food. He pees normally so he must be okay but we still let the vet know we just haven't heard from him yet. He sleeps a lot but he's always done that, he's getting older now. He'll still play with you though but only for a short while. He went on a couple of walks this weekend. What a beautiful day!!! So I guess the next step is a blood test which I need to set up. We are quite surprised and pleased so far with how he was before and how he is now. We take one day at a time. Take care. It's hard to have a really bad day when you look in the eyes of your fur baby/kid

[molly muffin]

I'm really happy to hear that he is doing well with the new diet and that it all seems to be helping with the cushings symptoms too. :) Yay. One day at at time, sometimes that is all any of us can do.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi Everyone
I just wanted to send out an update since my boy has been on his new holistic treatment plan for a little over a month now.
On top of his holistic remedies he also takes denamarin(for his liver) Prozac(for anxiety), deramax(for arthritis pain), adequan(for joint pain) and now we needed to add tramadol(for rear leg pain.).

Outwardly he seems very healthy for a NOW 13 year old. He loves his new food and is excited to have something that special made just for him. His clinical signs have decreased. He doesn't drink much water therefore doesn't go out much to pee. His appetite isn't as ravenous as it used to be so he just seems to be a normal dog wanting treats. He doesn't seem to have much of a pot belly but his hair is still thinning on his back. He plays with us now, will go for short walks and he's back to his true self when he starts to bark again. His back leg is giving him a problem. He has arthritis in his knee and it sounds painful. He's favoring that leg quite a bit. We have ramps all over the house for him so he won't hurt himself. Even though he's in this pain he's still a happy dog. We are just so grateful we found a holistic vet and that it worked for our baby. It might not work for everyone but it's worth looking into. Homeopathic medicines have been around for centuries you just need to decide if you want to travel this route with your pet and try it. We are all happy we did. We bring him to our conventional vet in a couple of weeks for his annual exam so I will definitely post my numbers. Somebody might find them interesting. Hope all is well with the group.

[molly muffin]

Thanks for letting us know how things are going with your boy. It really is important to know how they are responding on various treatment plans.
Good luck with his annual exam, hopefully he will be doing well.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

I am going to research the homeopathic meds that your boy is using. Squirt has been sick, a possible seizure in the mix, and I am debating the Lysodren. She's 15 so we are at a point I feel she needs minimal assault on her system but don't know for sure which would be worse - treat as we have been, stop it all, or try another approach. We old broads pose so many problems! :p

Annnndddd....did we have a birthday?

[Concernedmom]

Hi Leslie
I'm so sorry that Squirt isn't feeling well. It is such a difficult decision to make for our babies especially when they get up there in age. I can only speak for myself (and my husband, of course. Ha Ha). that this was the best decision we made for our pup. I just don't know how to describe it. He just acts as though he isn't sick except of course for being old. At his age he sleeps during the day (I'm home) but he follows me everywhere. He'll play if you throw the toy but only what his leg will allow because his arthritis is getting bad. Typical old age. He just looks healthier. This surprises us every day. We talk about it all the time we just don't understand it.
I don't know what it is about the remedies but we got lucky. We just hope it lasts. I think we all understand there are no studies on the remedies so we don't know if dogs or my dog will stay well. We keep our fingers crossed. I don't want to give anyone false hope. As Sharlene said it is important to know how dogs are responding to different treatment. I think if it can help someone else then wonderful. It's always an individual choice. I wish the best for all the pups and always hope they stay healthy. Yes, we turned 13. We celebrate adoption day and make him a year old.

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy 13th Birthday, sweet boy!

[molly muffin]

Awww, did we miss his adoption day or is it today? Happy Birthday. 13 is doing pretty good. :)

I love that you celebrate his birthday on his adoption day. The beginning of a whole new life.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[molly muffin]

Hi ConcernedMom. I just wanted to check in and see how you guys are doing.

Hope all is well.

Let us know when you get a chance.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hello Everyone (Sharlene/Molly Muffin)(Leslie)
Wanted to check back in and give an update. Almost 2 months since my pups been on his holistic remedies and homemade diet. He's still loving his food and every symptom seems to be under control right now. No increased drinking/peeing. (just seems to be a normal dog) No increased appetite. No panting anymore except when we go for a walk. I think it's because the arthritis in his back leg kicks in. His hair is coming in nicely on his back and not much of a pot belly.
We went for his blood work end of April and the vet was quite surprised how well he looked. She even made a comment on how nicely his hair is growing and that he's not showing much of a pot belly. The last time she had seen him was when we had that emergency visit the beginning of February. He had a CBC Wellness, urinalysis, and a urine protein creatinine ratio test done. Here are some of the levels I think you might be interested in. I also posted what his earlier levels were so you could compare them. If there's something specific you would like to see from the test let me know and I'll post it. I don't know which levels are more important than others. His liver enzyme decreased a little. The vet said because his BUN is high and his urine is dilute there is evidence of kidney disease. Not happy about that of course. The urine protein creatine ratio decreased. Because he is feeling so well we were recommended to keep everything as is. All in all we were pretty happy with the results.
If you pick up on something that I don't see please mention it. If you think of something I can do to help with the kidney disease I would love to hear your comments. My baby is feeling so good though. He's even back to his old self of barking at everyone he sees. We remain truly amazed.
I hope everyone is having healthy days with their babys. Hugs.
Leslie, how is Squirt feeling?


His ALP was 937 (5-131 normal). Current
ALP 1309 on Nov. 20, 2012.

His Potassium is 6.2 (normal is 3.6-5.5). Current
Jan 22, 2013 it was 4.8.
Dec 17, 2012 it was 6.2
Nov 21, 2012 it was 6.1. His Potassium levels have always run high.

Urinalysis : Protein 1+ high neg Specific gravity 1.012 low. Normal 1.015-1.050. Current
Feb 2, 2013 Protein 3+ high neg.
Nov 20, 2012 Protein 3+ high neg

Urine protein creatinine ratio 1.0 <=0.5 Normal Current
June 2, 2012 it was 1.5.
April 14, 2012 it was 1.7

Bun/Creatinine Ratio. 43. (Normal 4-27). Current
Bun/Creatinine Ratio 24 Nov 21, 2012
Bun/Creatinine Ratio. 26. Oct 6, 2012

Urea Nitrogen 47. (Normal 6-31). Current
Urea Nitrogen 19 Nov 21, 2012
Urea Nitrogen 13 Oct 6, 2012

[molly muffin]

Hi Concernedmom,

I am actually pretty happy with those results too considering that he hasn't been on any traditional cushings treatment and very happy to see some of the levels have come down. Not happy about the Bun/Creatinine ratio of course, same as you, it is concerning and you might want to keep an eye on that. It could be that the kidney disease will need to be treated. There are things that they can do to try to stabilize it, based on what you see those numbers do in relation to the protein. The nutritionist might want to make an adjustment in diet for instance.
I think though that overall you have reason to be happy with these results and seeing his coat come back in and him acting like himself and a happy guy, is great.
I really appreciate your keeping us updated on how things are going and the results you are seeing.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

The increased potassium level is what concerns me a bit. Is he taking any medication that would have potassium citrate in it, or any high blood pressure medication?

Fish or wild salmon oil is suggested when a dog is suspected of kidney disease and making sure they are staying hydrated.

So happy to hear that your boy is doing so well! Please do keep us updated, ok? ;)

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Concernedmom]

Thanks Sharlene
I'm glad you think the numbers look pretty good too. I don't have any experience in kidney diseases so I don't understand why this is happening right now. Are we doing something wrong? Missing something? I will be emailing results to my homeopathic vet to get his opinion. I will be interested to see what his take will be on the kidney issue and what if anything he recommends we do for his diet.
It's interesting when you look over the regimen he's on there's really only 3 true remedies that I'm using strictly for cushings.

The snake and The Dragon Teapills two (2) pills daily given (1) tablet every 12 hours - Adrenocorticotrophin 30c two (2) pills daily given (1) pellet every 12 hours crush & put in mouth​ - Quercus Robur 30X two (2) pills daily given (1) pellet every 12 hours crush & put in mouth - very important that the pellets are crushed and adminis tered through mouth/ tongue. Best way to do this is use a pill crusher and then empty the container on a spoon for the dog to lick. If you don't have a pill crusher you can put the pellets between 2 spoons and crush. Then have dog lick spoon. My pup will lick the spoon he loves the taste. You could put your finger in the crushed Powder and rub on their gums or get on their tongue if they won't lick the spoon. But DON'T EVER put the pellets in food. It will not be effective this way. You can put a couple of pellets in their drinking water for the first few days to give a jump start so to speak along with the regular dose and you can also continue to do this if you wish. It's just whatever you want to do. Also take Vitamin E capsules 100 iu daily (if you can't find 100 iu get 200 iu and give every 2 days).

[Concernedmom]

Hi Lori
Potassium levels have concerned me also but they were always high and they felt because he is a stressfull dog this was the answer. He doesn't take a blood pressure medication. I do add potassium iodide 150 mcg pill to his food. With 50mg zinc. And seaweed calcium to his food. He gets 1000 mg of fish oil per day.

That's about all I know for now Once I find anything else out I will send updates along.
If you should find any info that can help me with my baby's care please let me know. Even if its a recipe for a great treat or food. Or anything you've tried that might help arthritis in the back legs. Nothing's to small. We are here to help each other. Peace

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Lori
Potassium levels have concerned me also but they were always high and they felt because he is a stressfull dog this was the answer. He doesn't take a blood pressure medication. I do add potassium iodide 150 mcg pill to his food. With 50mg zinc. And seaweed calcium to his food. He gets 1000 mg of fish oil per day.

Is there a specific health issue that he has that requires him to take the potassium iodide? I am thinking that the potassium iodide may be adding to his elevated potassium levels.


That's about all I know for now Once I find anything else out I will send updates along.
If you should find any info that can help me with my baby's care please let me know. Even if its a recipe for a great treat or food. Or anything you've tried that might help arthritis in the back legs. Nothing's to small. We are here to help each other. Peace

I would add the fish or wild salmon oil, as these can help with arthritis and kidney issues.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Concernedmom]

The potassium iodide was part of the recipe for the homemade diet the vet gave me. Just a recipe out of a book tailored for heart disease. Nothing special for my dog. I hope it isn't going to add to his already high levels. I am going to email the homeopathic vet about that and the new topic of kidney disease. I was also reading about Ubiquinol from Dr Karen Beckers website. Sounds really interesting. Has anyone heard of it or is using it?
Thanks for the input!!
Peace

[Harley PoMMom]

From my search on google it seems that Ubiquinol is the active antioxidant form of CoQ10.

When my boy, Harley, was diagnosed with kidney disease I did a lot of research. From what I've read the claims that CoQ10 is helpful with kidney disease are conflicting. One article states that CoQ10 decreases BUN and creatinine, while another article says that CoQ10 should not be take if kidney disease is present. :confused:

I believe this is something one should talk to their vet/IMS about.

[molly muffin]

Hi Concernedmom, I just saw you post on Astro's thread and was happy to hear that your furbaby is doing so well. Can you give us an update, of where you are at today in treatment when you have time?

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi:
Just wanted to welcome you, and tell you this is the best place for information and support. Everyone is very friendly and knows what they are talking about with Cushings- more so than any Vet I met yet! Good Luck and God Bless
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Patti thanks for the welcome. Hi Sharlene, my baby is doing good except for giving us a scare over his appetite. This past week he started to get finicky about his homemade food which really made us nervous. This morning he wouldn't eat and wouldn't take any of his medication which we mask in food. He just looked like he didn't feel well so we called the mobile vet to come and do all his blood work now instead of July. Boy we were so happy. The vet said she was pleased with the urine result and the kidneys and liver values looked good.
I only got the results over the phone so these are the numbers I have.
His ALP is 934 compared to 937 in April. His Creatinine is 0.8 compared to 1.1 in April. electrolytes were good. We were trying to figure out why he was doing this and the only thing that we can think of is we added vetri science renal essential on May 29. We don't know if that had anything to do with it but we aren't giving anymore. The homeopathic vet said "never say never but it's unlikely". Tonight he's back to his normal self eating the food. Our babies. Will never figure it out. Well I hope he stays healthy for another day.
Long health to everyone's pups.

[molly muffin]

Sometimes things just don't seem to do so well on their tummies. This might be one of them. The numbers are good though. Staying in line.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

I just posted on Tess's thread and wanted to give a quick reply to Sharlene's question about testing cortisol. We have thought about doing another ACTH test to see what his numbers would be but because the test is so expensive we decided not to. Do you know of any other test that might give us what we're looking for but isn't as much as the ACTH?

I do want to mention that we started putting the Quercus Robur and Adrenocorticotrophin pellets in his drinking water as the vet instructed us to do (but we never did) and we have noticed a big difference in him. He has more energy, he's happier (meaning he wants to play more and interact with us more) his appetite has increased, he just seems different to us. I don't know for sure if it's the pellets but that is the only change we made with him. We will take anything he gives us so we're happy he's happy.

[Budsters Mom]

How is your boy's appetite doing? Is he eating any better? How is he feeling overall? Sending you tons of hugs and healing energy.:)
Kathy

[molly muffin]

This is really great that your baby is doing so well.

I know that ACTH test is very expensive. You could do a baseline cortisol test just to see where that is. It would tell you how much is in his body and there is a normal range for that. It wouldn't be nearly as expensive as they aren't using that agent and giving the shot and then retesting. If it is within the normal range, then you will know that his cortisol levels have come down too. This is a simple blood draw, no ACTH agent given.

His base cortisol level was 16.9 (range 1 - 5) 26 November 2012
His base cortisol level was 9.4 (on trilostane) 5 December, 2012
His base cortisol level was 7.3 (on trilostane) 23 January, 2013

I only posted his base level as a comparison, because that is all you would be looking at anyway. Not an ACTH which shows pre/post. This would only tell you how is body is responding internally to anything in regards to cortisol production.

It's up to you of course if you want to check that or not, but that option is available to you at very little cost.

I am pleased as punch that he is doing so well on his current treatment.

hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

[Concernedmom]

I didn't know you could do just a baseline cortisol that's good news especially if it's only a blood draw. Bud has anxiety issues so the testing always took a toll on him. I'll discuss with my vet.
Thanks so much for the info
Hope all had a great 4th

[Concernedmom]

Hi everyone
I have a question regarding a cream I'm using. Bud is itching around the inside of his back leg and at first I thought he had a mosquito bite but now I'm not sure. There is around 4 red dots in that area and he just wants to lick and lick it's driving me crazy. I tried baking soda and water paste. That worked for awhile. I called my vet and she said to try cortizone cream for a couple of days and if it doesn't clear up we will have a vet visit. We are using hydrocortizone cream. Is this cream okay for him? I figured I would check here because it seems like everything can bother cushings and I don't have a clue. Help

[Concernedmom]

me again,
okay so i'm wrapping his leg now after applying cream it itches so much. Hard to wrap seeing where it is. It really looks like he has one mosquito bite that keeps kinda opening up due to licking and 3 dots next to it. He does walk around in the yard so that's why I'm thinking its probably this. I feel bad for him we all know what it feels like to have an itch and you can't itch it. Of course this is making him pant all the time because he's agitated. I don't know what to put on it to relieve the itch. I think if he stopped itching it might go away. Does anyone have any ideas.

[Squirt's Mom]

Probably not the best choice as it is a corticosteriod - which will cause Cushing's signs and a form caused Iatrogenic.


Systemic absorption of topical corticosteroids has produced reversible hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis suppression, manifestations of Cushing's syndrome, hyperglycemia, and glucosuria in some patients.

http://www.rxlist.com/hydrocortisone-drug/warnings-precautions.htm

I think I'd take him in and be sure to let the vet know that telling a cush parent to use steroid creams on their pup is not a good idea. ;)

[labblab]

Hi everyone
I have a question regarding a cream I'm using. Bud is itching around the inside of his back leg and at first I thought he had a mosquito bite but now I'm not sure. There is around 4 red dots in that area and he just wants to lick and lick it's driving me crazy. I tried baking soda and water paste. That worked for awhile. I called my vet and she said to try cortizone cream for a couple of days and if it doesn't clear up we will have a vet visit. We are using hydrocortizone cream. Is this cream okay for him? I figured I would check here because it seems like everything can bother cushings and I don't have a clue. Help
Normally, we try to avoid using cortizone products with Cushdogs so as not to introduce additional steroids into the system. But sometimes the need for a short-term steroid to reduce inflammation, itching, etc. trumps everything else. And at least a topical cream is delivering less steroid exposure than would an oral prednisone pill, for instance.

If Bud is having an allergic reaction to a bite, it is possible that an antihistamine spray (like a benadryl spray) might help somewhat with the itching. If the "bite" area starts reddening and expanding, though, an infection may be developing and he will need to be seen by the vet sooner rather than later.

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Thank you so much for answering quickly. Good thing I only put it on since yesterday. He is really itchy and so red. Husband just got home and took a look at it and he doesn't think it's a mosquito bite. Maybe it's some kind of rash so we can't afford to fool around with it. Need to have the vet take a look.
I didn't even know there was a benadryl spray, See how much I know? Will have to check that out.
I guess I need to ask more questions the next time so I know whether it's appropriate for a Cush dog or not.

Thanks again.

[Concernedmom]

Well it turns out that Bud had a flea on him that was causing the itching problem. When the vet came to the house, picked him up and turned him over to look at his back leg one flea was on his tummy. I was shocked. He's white so it's really easy to see anything on him.
I checked him for fleas because it did enter my mind when all the licking started but there was nothing. The vet said it only takes one well apparently it did because she took the one off and there wasn't anymore to be found. She gave him an antibiotic and told me to start advantage II for 3 months. I did ask her if this was fine to use with cushings and she said yes so I hope she was right.
He's doing great now. Everything is cleared up on his leg and no more licking.
I also wanted to give everyone an update. It's been 6 months since he's started his homeopathic remedies. Except for the time that we had to increase his Snake and Dragon Teapills because he started drinking/peeing more he's doing wonderful. All his clinical symptoms are still controlled. He's got energy and he's a happy guy. We couldn't be more pleased with the results. We hope they will continue. I hope everyone is having good results with their chosen medicines and we can only pray our furbabies will be able to spend many more days with us. Hugs. Have a long safe Holiday weekend.

[doxiesrock912]

Those pesky fleas cause so many problems.
I'm glad that it's sorted out and Bud is feeling better.

[Squirt's Mom]

Has Bud had an ACTH since starting the homeopathic treatments? I would love to know if these formulas are controlling the cortisol, not just the signs. My Squirt has not had her Lyso for almost 2 months now and while her signs are not present, if they come back I'm not sure I will give her the Lyso again. She was 15 in Feb and nearly died in March from Proin. She's been completely off all her meds for a while now and I'm looking at other options for the time they may be needed.

I'm not very versed in TMC at all but have been looking into herbs used in Western Herbalism for Cushing's. Many holistic vets that I've been reading seem to prefer a mix of TMC and WH if the cortisol is controlled on the ACTH. One cush mom I've communicated with over the years has used herbs with success on several of her babies - she's a cush magnet! :p But the cost of her protocol puts it way out of my range. The TMC formulas seem to be a bit more economical than numerous individual herbs.

[labblab]

So glad to hear that Bud is doing well and that the pesky itching issue has been solved!

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

I would love to know if the formulas are controlling the cortisol but we haven't had another ACTH test since starting the new treatments because we didn't have anymore frozen Cortrosyn left. As we all know it's very expensive. If we had any left we definitely would have done the test. I think Sharlene had mentioned a baseline cortisol test and I did ask the vet about it but he said it wouldn't be worth doing the test. Now I don't know if he said that because he thought cost was an issue or if he thought since symptoms are controlled what's the point? I got the answer to that question from the vet tech not the vet directly.

Wow Squirt is one lucky lady. Heck just living to 15 is a miracle these days. She sounds like she's got a great mom taking care of her. You must be so thrilled that she hasn't had any symptoms for awhile without medicine.
I understand your concern on getting a game plan in place in case her signs return. I think about that a lot. What will we do if this stops working? My husband and I have talked about it but haven't come up with anything yet? We really don't want to use traditional medicines.

Can I ask you a question? Does it really matter though whether the cortisol numbers come down as long as you can control the symptoms and keep those at bay? I would like to see more evidence besides the British Homeopathic Journal written in 2001. I don't understand why there's nothing else written after this date on these 2 remedies.

Well for now we are concerned about keeping his symptoms away and seeing how happy he is. He's like a normal 13 year old dog. No pot belly. No more bruising when they take blood.
The cost is minimal
My adrenocorticotrophin 30C 2 oz bottle cost. $32 Quercus Robur 30X 2 oz bottle $32
The snake and dragon teapills $16.50 A bottle. 200 pills.
The Teapills helps to control his panting and excessive drinking/peeing and I know it helps because he started with 1 pill every 12 hours but 4 months later we noticed more drinking/ peeing. We increased to 2 pills every 12 hours. Within a couple days we saw the decrease in signs.
I wish everyone could have the luck we are having but I know that's not realistic. Every dog is different and has different needs.
I hope it turns out to be what you're looking for if and when the time comes.
Hugs

[LtlBtyRam]

I will have to read this thread in its entirety. We are using a traditional and holistic Chinese Medical Vet. We have been given a Free and Easy Wanderer Teapill to help supplement her regimen. Has anyone heard of this? After starting this we got better fur texture and not so quite as dry skin. I don't know if it was due to this or just when we started it in conjunction with her Trilostane. Definitely want to learn more.
Angela

[Concernedmom]

Hi
What do people usually do about their vaccines? We are due for rabies and it is required by the city. Is this a problem for cush dogs?
Thoughts?

[doxiesrock912]

So far, Daisy still gets vaccines.
We have not been advised by her general vet or IMS specialist to stop them.

I would ask the specialist.

[frijole]

You should ask your vet. Some dogs with cushings have compromised immune systems and are 'exempt' by their vets from vaccinations however it totally depends on the area you live in, your dog's health etc. Good question but best answered by your vet. Kim

[Concernedmom]

Hi
I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on what might be the cause of a seizure?

My little boy had what I think was a seizure early this morning at 1 am. All of a sudden I heard this awful cry/scream so I dashed for the light and Buddy was on the floor beside his bed laying on his side crying. Well I couldn't tell if it was crying or screaming it was happening so fast lets just say it was horrible to hear. I sat beside him and he just continued this cry. I couldn't do anything for him so I just tried to hold him as best as I could. He finally stopped the crying then he tried getting up and I saw his eyes roll in his head and he fell back down. After a few seconds he got back up and wanted to walk. He was a little unstable but not to bad then he wanted to go outside and pee. The end.

In July something similar happened to him but there wasn't any crying involved. Didn't last as long as this one. It happened while I was awake so I saw it happen. He was sleeping and just woke up, stumbled,fell down, feet went in the air and eyes rolled. Then he woke up and wanted to walk outside to pee.

Last week he just had his 6 month check up and the vet was very pleased. We had a CBC, Kidney and electrolyte test, a urinalysis and a urine protein creatinine ratio done. The ALP was the only value that was high at 1249. It was 934 in June 2013. He is on denamarin.
This is what my vet said about the liver "some holisitic treatments we will see clinical improvement but the laboratory values will remain abnormal... All of the other liver enzymes are normal including TBIL (bilirubin) which reflects liver function, so I do not suspect the elevated ALP is a primary liver disorder."

Urine protein was 3+ and that's why we did the ratio test which came back at 1.1. This was my vets response on the protein creatinine ratio result.
"The urine protein/creatinine ratio is elevated above the reference range of 0.5 - however in conjunction with a normal creatinine this is not a finding that requires treatment. It does indicate that he is losing a small quantity of urine from the kidneys but not enough to be of clinical concern. We will monitor this over time. His creatinine level of 0.9 is fantastic"

Do you think this is a heart problem or the pituitary tumor causing this kind of episode?

She listened to his heart and lungs and lungs sounded clear and murmur remained the same at 3/5. He is not on any heart meds. Blood pressure was 140

Appreciate any help? Very Worried. Having 2 episodes 3 months apart is not a good thing.

[frijole]

By chance did you have the rabies shot you mentioned a while back? If so I just read on someone else's thread a few days ago their dog had a seizure right after having the shot and when they googled it - it was a potential side effect. Just checking.

Otherwise cush dogs have periodic seizures - my Haley did a couple times but just short ones and no screaming - my god that would scare me to death. If it continues you may consider a cat scan/mri of the pituitary tumor to see if it is growing. They are normally teeny microscopic things but in rare cases they grow and can press on the brain.

Hoping its from the shot. ;) Kim

[Concernedmom]

Kim I did get the rabies shot on Tuesday the 15th. I wonder if it might have something to do with it. I was so afraid for him and me. To not know if he was in pain or if he was crying out because he was scared. Very awful to be waken up like that in the middle of the night/morning. The last episode he had the doc mentioned having an echo of the heart but we haven't had it yet because the traveling vet who does them has been really ill and out of work. Word is he won't be back till January. My Bud is so afraid of driving in the car we didn't want to travel further than 15 mins away. I mean he has panic attacks. He holds his breath, then let's it out and pants really fast. It's bad. That's why we switched to a mobile vet. Of course All the places that do the elaborate testing is at least an hour away. How could we get him there peacefully. He's already on Prozac and homeopathic anxiety drops. Any suggestions to calm a stressed dog.
I know I need to make plans in case we need to take him in the car.
I pray it's not the pituitary tumor. I keep thinking it might be vestibular syndrome. Thanks for your input. T

[doxiesrock912]

Poor baby!
Seizures are scary for them as they can realize that suddenly they can't control their bodies. I do believe this was a seizure and I would contact the vet.

[frijole]

Since you had an episode earlier it might just be the cushings. Cortisol (which is elevated in cush dogs) causes them to be jumpy. I don't know what you are currently giving but you might consider (after talking to vet) melatonin. It calms them. I bought it because my dogs were scared of lightening and fireworks. It is all natural and it just mellows them out. I have taken it myself when unable to sleep and it truly does work. It is given to treat dogs with atypical cushings (elevated sex hormones) so it's worth considering if you aren't already using it. Kim

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh, how absolutely terrifying that must have been. Did you call the vet? What did they say?

Well, I'd book with the traveling vet as soon as he is back on the job even if it is january. If something comes up in between, gosh I don't know how you'd get him there in a car, with the fear factor being so strong.
You'd have to hold him on your lap and have someone else drive.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Bailey's Mom]

Our first dog experienced seizures near the end of her life. They do lose control of their bodies and it is physically very, very hard on them. Peaches started to mess on the floor so I grabbed her up and rushed her outside. By the time we got outside, she was unable to stand on her own. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. I think it was #4 which made us decide the time had come to make that decision. She was over 17 years old, had lived a marvelous life, but that part was now in the past and these seizures were just too much to expect her to deal with.

January is a very long way away, in some regards. Perhaps you could give him half of a Benadryl to get him prepared for the car ride.

Susan

[molly muffin]

How is Buddy doing? Hope no more seizures!!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Buddy is doing well. No more seizures. I pray he doesn't have anymore. I emailed my vet and she said what I described sounded more like a seizure and not likely related to his heart. She said many dogs will cry out during a seizure because of disorientation not pain. She also said there's a possibility that the primary pituitary mass is causing the seizures. She said we could do an MRI to definitely diagnose the cause but there isn't any good medical options. He is
13 1/2 So we don't want to put him through an MRI just to do nothing with the information. You can't do anything if it's the pituitary tumor. We'll just hope he doesn't have anymore and if he does we will deal with it then. Right now he's still happy and bloodwork says he's pretty healthy. We notified the holistic vet also and he recommended Hepagen-C to help with his liver and gincofolin
For the dementia that he is starting to show. The holistic vet didn't give an opinion on what could have caused the seizure. The opinion above came from our conventional veterinarian. Thanks everyone for responding. I get so much good information from the forum. It really is a great place for people that don't know where to turn and they have all these questions kicking around in their heads. T

[Squirt's Mom]

My Squirt has dementia and I wanted to share a product with you that has helped her a great deal - it is a stable SAMe called Novifit. It can be put in the feed and still be absorbed unlike most of the other SAMe's that have to given on an empty stomach. It comes in three doses - the S (small) 100mg is what Squirt takes. It comes in two larger doses for bigger dogs.

Squirt showed improvement almost immediately after starting the Novifit. They take it for 30-60 days, until you see improvement, then stop after either the 30 or the 60 day mark. I stopped Squirt's after 30 days and within a week she started showing more signs so she has started it back again...and again is showing improvement right away. It doesn't require a prescription - or ours doesn't anyway - and I use an online source, Countryside Pet Supply. They ship very fast and have the best price for me (I don't use credit cards so I'm limited on where I can purchase things online).

http://www.countrysidepet.com/search.php?search_query=novifit&x=49&y=10

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Concernedmom]

Hi Leslie
I have never heard of Novifit. The only product I am familiar with for dementia is senilife. It sounds like Novifit works a lot better. We had to keep our dog on the product every day. We noticed a difference in the very beginning of starting senilife but you had to keep him on the product for it to work. Buddy will go outside, come in, and want to go right back out like he forgot he just went out. That's the only thing I see at the moment so we weren't sure if we should start him on anything yet. I will definitely look up Novifit. Thanks. I'm so glad it worked for Squirt. I can't even describe how awful I felt watching my poor baby go through this disease. Just terrible. I really believe that is what got him in the end. Granted we made the decision for him but we had to.
Now Buddy is on amoxicillin for some bites on his back. I put advantage on him Wednesday and Friday I see he's trying to lick way up on his back. Well they tell you to put the advantage in 3 spots neck-middle of back-and near tail. (The putting on of the advantage may mean nothing but I had to include it in the story because you never know what may mean something). I checked him out and I see little bites just like before. I call vet and she said they're probably flea bites. That even though he has advantage on him doesn't mean he can't get bit and have an allergic reaction. So she called in the script. I've never had fleas or ticks in my yard but this year we didn't treat it because of Buddy and we get fleas. The vet said they are horrible this year. I just don't want him to get sick from the antibiotic. Just so happens that I'm on same thing different dose and it has lots of fun with your stomach. I pray he doesn't get an upset stomach too.
I have noticed that his fur is thinning on his back and sides now but no other symptoms have cropped up. I guess we'll have to wait and see. I pray every night that our cush dogs stay healthy for another day. T. Hugs

[Squirt's Mom]

Squirt is on another drug for the CCD that for some strange reason I didn't mention earlier...maybe this is contagious? :p It is a prescription drug called Anipryl and is sometimes used to treat Cushing's tho it's not often effective for that. The generic is Selegiline. It was originally designed for Cushing's but they noticed it helped with mental acuity in the older dogs and worked better for this than for Cushing's. It works by increasing Dopamine in the brain and helps break down free radicals in the brain. The breakdown of free radicals is very important. ;)

I know what you mean about heart-breaking to watch. Squirt will go outside to potty and not come back to the door. I go out to check on her and find her standing in the yard looking this way and that way with a confused expression on her face. She is lost in her own yard. :( When she sees me on the porch, you can see the relief in her eyes and a smile come to her face. She comes right up the ramp then and it is easy to see she is happy again, found again, no longer lost. Some days she really enjoys our walks in the field and some days it confuses her causing her to feel afraid out there and she just wants to go home. Without these meds, she is absolutely pitiful - terrified and lost. BUT with them, she is almost like her old self again. It is my fervent prayer that these drugs effectiveness lasts as long as she does 'cause if they stop helping....well, I don't even want to think about that. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Concernedmom]

Well my boy had another seizure today and since he just had one
Oct 20th I'm pretty scared. Not sure if the count down has now started. Thank god I was right by his side when it happened. Lasted probably only 2 seconds but I knew that's what it was. My husband and I were thinking back to the date when he was first diagnosed and it was November 2012. So we are now a year into it. He is still happy and eats well but ever since these 3 seizures he has slowed down a lot and just looks a little worn out in his face. I just don't have a good feeling about this and there's not a thing I can do about it and that's what kills me. All I can do is make sure he's happy everyday and love him. Thanks for listening. T

[Concernedmom]

I was just reading a thread "my friend gizmo" in which Marianne was replying about seizures. She mentioned that with Cush dogs it may not be the pituitary tumor but to check the thyroid. I'm not sure that I've had buddy's thyroid checked. What I found interesting about the information was she said "pituitary tumors associated with Cushing's can sometime enlarge to the extent that pressure is placed elsewhere in the brain, causing neurological problems including seizures. But seizures are NOT the most common side effect of such enlarging tumors -- you more often see problems such as loss of appetite, mental confusion or "dullness," odd circling behavior."
Buddy is having a little bit of mental confusion and dullness would you think his seizures are pituitary related or thyroid related? And if his thyroid hasn't been checked would you get it checked right away to make sure the seizures aren't related to the thyroid? I don't know maybe I'm just trying to grasp at anything.

[molly muffin]

I would get his thyroid checked. It won't hurt and if it is "off", then you can medicate to get it regulated, just like in people. I would also discuss this thoroughly with your vet based upon whatever the results of the thyroid tests are.
It could be a seizure medication would help, marianne would know more about that or one of the others that have used them. Also, another though, is to see if it is a glucose level issue. This wouldn't normally show up in a blood test unless you catch it just right, but if during a seizure you try to put just a tad of syrup, etc, on his gum and he comes right out of it, then it could be something of that nature too.
So, yes we know he is having seizures but at this point, we don't know if it is something treatable. Maybe it is.

hang in there!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Hi Sharlene
I spoke to my vet today and asked if Buddy has had a thyroid test and she said no. I have had this vet since I think May (guessing). I told her I know my previous vet hadn't done any thyroid tests either and she said they don't usually test thyroid unless there are symptoms that would question them to do so.
I asked her if the thyroid could cause seizures and she said not likely but I booked to have her come anyways to do the test. Is there a special kind of thyroid test I should be looking for?? I was also confused by her answer because I had read that thyroid could cause seizures. Well we will test and rule it out I guess. Can't hurt. If anyone has any info on thyroid- seizures I welcome it. Thanks a lot. Hope Molly is doing well.

[Harley PoMMom]

Here's a couple for you: http://http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/InterviewDrDoddsAndJoanneCarson.htm

This excerpt is from an interview with Dr. Dodds. Dr. W. Jean Dodds is a renown expert in thyroid problems, and founder of Hemopet, a nonprofit animal blood bank in Southern California.
Children and dogs with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or dogs with unprovoked aggression, submissiveness, adult onset seizures, phobias or compulsive disorders often have thyroid-function defects.

Our studies have shown this relationship to be present in up to two-thirds of behaviorally dysfunctional dogs.

Veterinary Q&A: Thyroid epidemic in dogs? (http://seattletimes.com/html/tailsofseattle/2016268943_veterinary_qa_thyroid_disease_in_dogs.h tml)

If I was considering having my pet's thyroid tested I would send the samples to Dr. Dodds lab: http://hemopet.org/hemolife/thyroid-testing.html

Hope this helps.

Hugs, Lori

[goldengirl88]

I don't get into the mix when I am not familiar with the subject. All I know about thyroid disease is that I have it and it can make you feel miserable. I hope you can get things figured out with sweet Buddy. God Bless you both.
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

The thyroid and the pituitary gland are tied so when a pup has Cushing's it seems to me it is a NO BRAINER to check the thyroid every time blood is drawn. The pituitary controls the thyroid with a hormone called TSH and the amount of TSH released by the pituitary tells the thyroid how much or how little of the thyroid hormones to release (T3, T4, freeT3, free T4). A high TSH means too little thyroid hormones (Hypothyroidism); a low TSH means too much thyroid hormones (HyPERthyroidism).

The thyroid hormones control metabolism, but that isn't as simple as it sounds. It is much more than simply how fast or how slow the food is burned up - metabolism controls the amount of fuel needed to run the organs in the body, it provides the energy for the heart, lungs, spleen, BRAIN, ect, to function normally. When the thyroid hormones are out of whack, the whole body goes out of whack. And yes, most certainly, seizures are a very real possibility if these hormones are allowed to remain unbalanced.

I would strongly suggest your vet read, and read in depth, the works of Dr. Jean Dodds - the thyroid guru for dogs. ;)

[Concernedmom]

Thanks Leslie. I totally agree with you Bud should have been tested for thyroid. He gets his blood tested every 6 months and I never realized we never had his thyroid checked. I feel just awful about that. I have binders filled with every lab report and every bill on every dog I've had and i let this slip by me. I don't understand why none of the vets brought it up. Well he's gonna be tested now.

I do have another question. Buddy is now joining all the rest of the pups and not wanting to take his medicines. Any ideas on something healthy he can eat that I can hide them in? Does anyone have any recipes? I've been using pieces of pill pockets and it's worked a long time now but for some reason he has gone "picky" on us. The regular stuff like cream cheese and peanut butter just doesn't work. I need something moist but also stiff enough to mold around the pill. This may be a dumb question but is liverwurst from the deli okay to give a Cush dog? I thought that would be the right consistency to mold around a pill. Any suggestions? Help!!!

[labblab]

One thing I've found helpful are thin packaged processed American cheese slices from the cheese section of the grocery store. The cheese is very soft so it is moldable, but still retains enough form so that you can totally encase the pill or capsule that is hidden inside. So all you have to do is tear off a portion of the slice, place the pill in the middle, and then fold over and tamp down to make a pill sandwich. You can even buy reduced fat versions if you are wanting to control fat intake.

The packages with the slices that are individually wrapped are especially nice because a big pack will last a long, long time without going bad (this is one time when all that "processing" is actually helpful :o because it gives the cheese a soft sticky consistency and also helps it keep longer...).

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I mold wet dog food around molly's pills. Not too much and then have another piece of wet food, ready to go in her mouth as soon as she swallows the first one. She knows this and wants that second piece, so she swallows the first pretty fast and doesn't notice the pill. A couple times I have put too much food on the pill and she'll eat that and spit the pill out but in general it works 98% of the time. (this is how the office manager at my vets office gets molly to take pills, so I tried it too and it worked).

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Cooper is missed]

Here's a link to a website that sells Pill Wrap. I used this stuff for Coopers veteroyl and he thought it was a treat! Worked every time for me. Hope this helps I tried cheese etc too but this was the best thing I found.


http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/AdditionalProducts/NutritionalSupplements/DietarySupplements.html

[Concernedmom]

Thanks to all for suggestions. In my searches I also read chicken & rice balls. Grind it up to a paste in the food processor. It really does turn into a nice paste that stays together. I haven't tried it on him yet. It always amazes me how the dogs get to a certain age and they all do the same thing. They can find that tiny pill, spit it out and eat the goodie. It is kind of funny watching them roll it around it their mouth but Oh so frustrating for us. Has anyone noticed any changes in their pups with the change in time? Mine seemed really off today. Really tired. Wondering if the time throws them off a little like it does us.

[molly muffin]

My dog was a bundle of energy this morning, causing havoc all over the place. Now she has had her second official Walk, she is taking a nap, but it took a while to get her to that point. I think mine actually does better on the time change, once I get her body to adjust to evening time, since she doesn't like to get up if it is dark outside and that can be a problem on days I have to go into the office.

They are funny with those pills. I agree. It's a hoot and I know it's coming if molly is making all those mouth movements. She'll even store it in a cheek and spit it out later to take the second bite and "fool" me. Brat. LOL

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

What about low-fat, all beef hot dogs?

[Concernedmom]

Buddy loved the chicken /rice balls but spit out the pills. Of course.
I boiled some beef stew meat and that worked for some of the pills but others like the tramadol he finds it and spits it out. I feel really bad because it's my husband who gives all of the meds and is just having an awful time. Today he used the beef, cream cheese and h/d dog food to get all the meds down him. He also gets the holistic powdered pellets for the cushings and won't lick that either. Now he has to put a little dog gravy from canned dog food on the spoon to make it more interesting. I just don't understand why all of a sudden he doesn't like his meds. It seems like right after he was on the amoxicillin for 3 days everything went haywire. Now I know you can lose your appetite but he's been off it now for 7 days. I don't know if this was just coming and it happened around the same time or what. Today he feels better but still not like he was. Maybe I just don't want to see what's coming. Vet is coming tomorrow for the thyroid test.

I was wondering if anyone has seen this article from Whole dog journal. Wanted to pass it along.
"New treatment for pituitary dependent cushings disease". Surgeon pioneers new method of treatment by removing the tumor.
Dr Bruyette and Dr Owen.
http://dogaware.com/articles/newscushingssurgery.html

[molly muffin]

Tramadol has a bitter taste to it and most dogs don't like it and go through I'm not going to eat anything in case it's in there phase.

Yes, some of the others can tell you more about it, but one of the first dogs that Dr. Bruyette did this procedure on was a member of our forum. Dr. Bruyette is still one of the go to vets that some members on here consult with like Patti and Kathy. He has always responded and taken time to review and give his opinion. I believe he is currently working on a trial drug to reduce the size of macro tumors. We all I am sure have high hopes for that one to work well.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

I was wondering if anyone has seen this article from Whole dog journal. Wanted to pass it along.
"New treatment for pituitary dependent cushings disease". Surgeon pioneers new method of treatment by removing the tumor.
Dr Bruyette and Dr Owen.
http://dogaware.com/articles/newscushingssurgery.html

Oh yes we are quite familiar with that article! The dog pictured is Lucy, she and her mom have a thread here: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=534
We are so very proud of Lucy and Gina!

[Concernedmom]

I thought that article was so interesting Wow. To think they were part of this. Amazing. I will read their story. Thanks for sending

[goldengirl88]

Dr. Bruyette is a wonderful man who I can not say enough about, nor thank him enough for the help he has given my Tipper. If my Tipper were younger and didn't have so many other issues I would get the money somewhere and get this done. He truly loves the animals and does this for that reason, he has not been corrupted with money like a lot of these vets. I will be thankful to him for the rest of my life for his un-wavering support to us. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, we love our Lucy Goo and her mom, Gina! And are so very proud of their unselfish contribution to the Cushing's community. Her story is amazing!

[Concernedmom]

I finally got the result from Buddy's thyroid test. Now I don't have the lab paperwork yet will get that probably Monday but she said the TSH level was 85 and normal range is 30. Does that make sense to anybody. She is ordering medicine for him and having it delivered because she said there isn't a human dose low enough for him.
I can't thank everyone enough for suggesting to check thyroid. If it wasn't for you guys I would not have checked it. Thank you thank you thank you..... Now I have another thing to worry about. I hope he does well on the new med. I've changed his diet to freshpet because he just didn't want the homemade anymore. He loves it. He's still picky about meds but we are getting him to take them. He's gained some weight in the past month and I'm not happy about it. I haven't changed anything in his diet so I'm not sure why. Could the thyroid contribute to it. I have to get the weight down and I know a lot of you have the same problem. It is just so difficult when all they want in this life to be happy is food. Again thanks to all. Good Health to all the pups.

[Squirt's Mom]

A high TSH means the thyroid is functioning below the normal level so he is hyPOthyroid. And, yes, hypothyroidism can contribute to weight gain; once those levels are back to normal and maintained, his weight should drop off some. Mine does anyway! :p

[molly muffin]

Oh I am so glad that you got the thyroid test done!!!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

I still haven't gotten my medicine yet nor my lab reports and I'm not too happy about. I like to see the lab reports so I can know what kind of questions to ask. I've been doing some reading and found something about "Sick Euthyroid Syndrome" secondary to Cushings
Does anyone know about this topic?

[Squirt's Mom]

Some links from the Helpful Resource section -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2256

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191


You can enter "sick euthyroid syndrome" into the "Search" above and find threads where it has been talked about as well.

[Concernedmom]

I have complete thyroid panel results.
Total T4 = 17 Normal range is 11-16
Free T4 = 3 Normal 6-23
Free T3 = 9.7 Normal 1.2-8.2 High
TSH = 85 Normal 0-30 High

We started him on it at 6:00 pm yesterday
Needs it every 12 hours 0.2 mg dose. Told it doesn't matter if given with food or not but have read on Dr Jean Dodds site that you should give it at least 1 hour before meal or 3 hours after so we will give on empty stomach. Since Monday he has been feeling a lot better. Energy came back. Happy to eat his Freshpet food. Doesn't seem so lethargic. This is even before giving the thyroxine. I read on
Dr Dodds website that if you've had a rabies shot within 45 days it can affect the TGAA test but I don't understand this. Can anyone explain this to me? Bud had a 3year rabies shot on Oct 15.

Welcome any feedback

[Concernedmom]

My little guy is in the hospital. He had a seizure at 3 am this morning and then again at 8:45 am. It was just horrible. It was just like the other ones. We heard the crying/screaming. We found him curled up in his bed. Eyes bugging out. Stiff. Crying. Then the crying stopped for a second like this was gonna be over and it started all over again. He was drooling. He finally came out of it but he laid on his side for 15 minutes just panting and panting with his tongue hanging out. He was exhausted. It was just awful. This one was really bad because he didn't bounce back up to go outside like the other ones he's had. When he felt good enough we let him go outside then he came back into bed. At 8:45 he was sleeping on the bed with me and I heard him cough. He got up to go down the ramp then came back to the bed and just fell. Cried a little bit. Legs went stiff then he started to pant and came out of it. The past week he's been coughing a lot. We took him to the ER and they said they don't know what's causing it but because they happened within 6 hours of each other that he needs to be on seizure medication phenobarbital. They wanted to keep him for 24 hrs with IV phenobarbital to watch him. They didn't want to just give us the medication because they said it takes 2 weeks to get in the system and he could have more seizures. They're doing chest
X-rays also. He just started the thyroxine on Wed so I'm thinking maybe that had something to do with it but they said "no". I did not want to leave him. He is so attached to me. Maybe it bothered me more than him. Good news is that the doc on call is the doc he used to have before we switched to a mobile vet so she knew his history.

[Junior's Mom]

I'm so sorry to hear this. How horrible it must have been for you, and him. I'm glad he is being well looked after. I hope they figure out quickly what is wrong. Positive thoughts going your way.

[goldengirl88]

I am so sorry this happened. Poor little guy, I feel awful you had to leave him. It is best at this point though because they can do the phenobarb. My heart just aches when any of these babies on here have bad things happen to them. I pray you dear baby will get better and be back in your loving arms soon. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

My thoughts and prayers are with you all. Please keep in touch and let us know how he's doing...and how you are doing.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Oh no :-(. Bi just got home and read this. How absolutely horrible for all of you. You must have been so scared. I hope they can get this figures out. We have had pups on phenobarbital before on the forum for seizures. Is really hoped the thyroid was causing them and medication would have taken care if that but maybe not.
I know you didn't want to leave him. I wouldn't wither but they are right. What if he had another one. :-(.
We'll be right here if you need us. Let us know how he is doing.
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Concernedmom]

I just got some more info. The vet called and said the chest X-ray showed his heart is a bit larger than it was the last time and there might be fluid on the back side of the heart but she wants to have a radiologist to confirm what she sees. He may need medicine for that. The liver bile test showed his liver is functioning properly so they did go ahead with the IV phenobarbital. I think I forgot to mention that. The phenobarbital increases liver enzymes so if the bile test showed the liver wasn't functioning properly they would have to use a different medicine for the seizures. She said his heart is pushing on his trachea so that might be the cause of some of his coughing. She doesn't think the seizures are related to his heart. So that's not good news. At the time of our call he was doing well and resting comfortably. She said if he woke later and was stressed she would call and we could pick him up otherwise we will pick him up tomorrow @ noon. I feel so bad for him as he gets stressed so easily. The ride to the vet was horrible I was praying he wouldn't have another seizure. He shakes and pants and coughs but he made it. We're thankful he's doing well. I've never taken care of a dog with seizures. I hope I can get through this.

[Concernedmom]

Thank you so much for your concern it means a lot. The house feels so empty without him. First you have 5 then 4 then 3 then 2 now Buddy. We miss him. It certainly makes you think what it will be like when ........
We were really hoping it was this thyroid problem. Boy whenever I saw it happen again at 8:45 this morning I was really scared because the 3 am seizure really wiped him out.
I'm thinking I have to get this on video but of course you're not thinking straight so my husband and I are both with him on the floor near his bed and I'm saying I wish I didn't put that camera away. He reaches over by the bed for the iPad. By that time I got the tail end of it but at least I got something. So the part where he was panting and breathing really fast I got it. You don't realize how important it is to video it if you can but that's easier said than done. Can't wait to see him. Thanks ladies.

[addy]

So sorry about these turn of events, I know we all hoped it was thyroid related.

Keep us posted, we do care.

[Trish]

Gosh, so sorry to read this. I hope they get your little Buddy sorted out quick smart and back home to you. How scary for you all, sounds like you did good though getting him in there asap. Good news that his liver is behaving, hopefully the heart meds will sort his cough out and get rid of any fluid that is lurking where it shouldn't be. Sending big hugs to you xxx

[molly muffin]

I'm glad to hear that he is doing well so far. He is probably exhausted right now. Is there anything they can do to try and narrow down what is causing the seizures? Yes definitely get that heart issue taken care of. If it is pushing I. His trenches then he might feel like he is choking and be panicking.

Hang in there. I hate the sound of silence when they aren't home too.
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Concernedmom]

I've just been reading about phenobarbital and now I'm scared to death. The side effects remind me of cushings. Lethargy, excessive urination, thirst and hunger, hind end weakness. Add to that hyperexcitabiity, restlessness. The blood levels and bile acid tests need to be done quite often. I know everyone knows how it feels. We're all in the same boat checking this and checking that. I wish all our babies didn't have to go through this. They have no idea why. The saddest part is when you're in the vets office and they're panting and panting and you know they want out of there and they keep looking at you like "when are we going mum" and you know they aren't going with you. Those eyes just break your heart. I know he's better off there than home right now.

[molly muffin]

I think Marianne used phenobarbital previously. If so I'm sure she'll stop in when she gets a chance and give you some pointers on it.

I know you didn't want to leave him, but they haven't called you so perhaps he is doing okay and resting. Molly will be great for the vets as soon as I am away from her, but as long as she can see me, she doesn't want to leave my side and will pull to try to get back to me. Every vet and tech though tells me she does amazing well, which surprises me because of all the fuss she kicks up. So, maybe as long as he can see you, he is distressed to get back to you, but then does fine once he thinks he Can't get to you. Just a thought.

I do hope they can figure these seizures out. :(

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

How is that sweet boy this morning? I hope he is showing some stability and will soon be home again!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Oh, I hope today brings you some much-deserved good news about Buddy, too. As Sharlene mentioned, my non-Cushpup Peg (9 year-old Lab) has been treated with phenobarb for almost three years now. I am happy to tell you that she is doing well and has been seizure-free ever since starting the drug. We have been exceptionally lucky, because we have not had to alter her dose even once so far, and she has adjusted to it very well. :)

At the beginning while she was getting used to it, it is absolutely true that she looked just like a Cushing's dog :o -- very thirsty, frequent peeing, dopey and lethargic. But these extreme effects started lessening after the first month, and largely totally normalized before very long. I know it isn't always this easy for folks, but in Peg's case, she has actually seemed cognitively and physically brighter since being treated. We now think she was living under a neurological "cloud" for quite some time before she started having the full-flown grand mal seizures that left no doubt.

We do not know the cause of her seizures. None of her labwork raised any red flags, and we have not yet chosen to pursue imaging of her head even though a brain tumor is a definite possibility given her age of onset (epilepsy usually manifests at a younger age). She has responded so well to the phenobarb for so long that we are crossing our fingers at this point and hoping that whatever the cause may be, it is not advancing.

As you already know, we do periodically monitor her phenobarb level and liver function. That is really not a problem, but it is sometimes a pain to schedule evening activities around the 12-hour dosing schedule (I am obsessive about being timely with her phenobarb). But on occasion, you can dose 1/3 the amount at 8 hour intervals rather than 1/2 the amount at 12 hour intervals, if that makes sense. So that allows you greater flexibility in the evening at times that you need it. All in all, the phenobarb has been a life-saver for us and easy to adjust to.

Having written all this, I see it is time right now for her morning dose! So I will close this reply and make her very happy to get her little cheese ball. :)

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

I hope you sweet boy is improving. From what the others say it seems to take a while for them to adjust to the phenobarb. I know exactly what you mean about sitting in the vets office with your dog panting and trying to get away and go home. I leave Tipper in the car and have them call me on the cell or come out and get me. It is just too much anxiety for her anymore. Praying your baby gets to come home soon. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

I'm so glad Marianne stopped by to tell you about her sweet Peg.

Let us know how things are.

[molly muffin]

How did it go today? Is Buddy home? Did they find anything? Are you starting the phenobarb?

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Thank you everyone.
I picked him up at noon and I was just shocked. The tech brought him in the room and he could barely walk. His legs were slipping out underneath him and he was falling down. I asked her if he was ok and she said "oh yeah it's just the floor. He's fine." I then put my hand around his neck and it was throbbing. Felt like his jugular was gonna pop. Again "that's normal". Went over instructions and left.
I put him down in the house and down he went. I have carpeting all over my house. He got up stumbling to the water dish drank and drank then fell in his dish. He was like comatose all day long.
Whenever he walked he fell either on his face or his legs bent in all different directions and couldn't correct himself. He'd have one leg twisted in one spot and one leg in another spot. He would fall asleep while trying to stand. He had shallow, rapid breathing. I've never seen anything like this. I've picked up my dogs after anesthesia before and this was nothing like that. I called my regular vet to let her know what had happened. I asked her if he would be like this on the tablets also or is this just because they gave him IV and she asked how much they gave him. She said if he acts like this on the tablets then he's on too high of a dose. He should not act like that. So we hung up and the day went on. All afternoon I felt really bad thinking maybe I didn't do the right thing. When my husband got home he was as shocked by him also. My husband called the animal hospital and explained how Bud was behaving and they said it was normal. Could last a week a month. Just give a dose tonight and continue giving the dose that's when we thought oh no what did we do? Are we doing what's best for Buddy? Is this the right medication for him? We want his quality of life to be good and if he is going to be like this for a week a month then that's just one day too long. Desperate I called my vet and asked her is there any other med we could use and she said there is. Zonisamide. She said not to give the night dose and see how he does in the morning. If he comes out of it then we know it was the phenobarbital. She said she doesn't use that due to side effects. Of course we had no idea because we were in the animal hospital making a quick decision. So we are gonna stop the phenobarbital and start the zonisamide. Marianne I did see your post and it helped me a great deal. I was reading on line that it was taking some dogs a month to get acclimated to the drug and we just can't do that to buddy because of his age. If he was younger and stronger it would be an option. I'm so glad it is working for you. Before this seizure Buddy had energy and was eating his food again and was very happy doing his puzzles so we would like to see that happy face again. We always seem to learn what we should and shouldn't do from each dog at the end of their life. We hope and pray we can get this one right for Buddy and let him go with no regrets. So although we made a quick decision and you hate seeing him like this my husband reminds me think of how you would feel if we took him home and he did have a seizure and die then you would be saying I should have left him in the hospital. So at least now he's ok and we can try a different drug. My husband is so smart. Thanks for listening to my book. p.s. Buddy just got up to have a treat and was walking a little bit better with daddy. Hoping tomorrow morning to be a good one.

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh. I would be horrified too if I picked Molly up and she couldn't stand when before she could. That would really worry me. Your vet thinks that the dose is too high with the phenobarb? And that caused this reaction?
I don't know anything about zonisamide, but I am glad that there is an alternative. It does seem that it is the phenobarb causing this as he is improving without the evening dose. Did your vet say if the other drug would work as well?
I so want Buddy to be the happy little guy that he use to be.
Your hubby is a very smart guy. It helps to have them around when we are beside ourselves with worry.
Maybe there are some others here who know something about it. I've read there is some appetite suppression in some dogs with it and that it doesn't work on all dogs. That was just in my preliminary search though and certainly nothing to go by, just something for you to keep in mind.
Hang in there and do keep us posted. There might be some other drug possibilities, but also could try a smaller dosage of the phenobarb. Nothing is awesome, but we try to find the bet thing that works for our individual dogs.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Omigosh, I'm so glad your vet is now on the case and has an alternative drug to offer Buddy! But I have to tell you, it sounds to me as though he has been totally overdosed on the phenobarb. Peg was somewhat dopey at first, but nothing like what you are describing. How awful for all of you! I'll surely hope that things go much more smoothly for you starting tomorrow.

But if this other drug doesn't give Buddy the relief you are seeking, it may still be the case that phenobarb could be an option -- but at a lower dose!

Marianne

[molly muffin]

marianne, do you know what the dosage should be based on dogs weight of phenobarb?

I'm not sure if it has a formula like trilostane does or what.

perplexed in canada
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Yes, initial dosing is based on weight, and then the level in the bloodstream is tested after about two weeks and dosing adjustments are made as needed. I think the initial dosing range is something like 2-5 mg. per kilogram given twice daily, with 3 mg. per kilogram quoted often as an average starting dose.

Since Buddy had a couple of severe seizures within a short period of time, I'm guessing that they maybe started him on a pretty hefty IV dose, and maybe he wouldn't have remained so impaired once he switched to the oral dosing. But hopefully this alternative med will work out well for him.

Marianne

[Concernedmom]

Me again don't want to be a pest but thank you so much for agreeing with me. I thought maybe I was not seeing it clearly sometimes I think it's worse than what it is. When my husband got home he did agree that he thought he would be up and walking not conked out. But I'm kind of po'd I just got an email from the doc and it said basically now you know why I had wanted to keep him overnight. He's better today than last night and will take time for the loading dose to wear off and him to adjust. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I was really hesitating on going through with this and didn't want him to stay because he gets stressed. I was standing there looking at buddy panting and looking at my husband and we're trying to make the right decision. We finally said we would keep him there for an hour to do the bile test and if he was too stressed then we would come back and get him. Now our stressed is different from their stressed and I know this from experience so I kept thinking that in the back of my mind but she didn't know what I was thinking. They probably don't care if the dog barks but I do. The email goes on to say "I certainly felt a lot of pressure to get him home as quickly as possible both from you and from him!" If he doesn't improve quickly over next 24-72 hours then would consider decreasing the dose. We were told it was 12-24 hours in the hospital and he was admitted at 12:30 and I picked him up at noon the next day. He got one phenobarb dose at 1pm i think it was 1.50 cc and and then 2am it was 0.22 cc. He was to be on 16 mg every 12 hours. If I picked him up any later it would not have made a difference because he was like this until he went to bed at 9 pm. Oh well now I have to tell them he's not gonna continue on it because we found something different. Would these side effects continue on a lower dose? I don't know and we will never find out now. I think they should have told me to not give the evening dose and see how he was in the morning before giving that dose. I think you are right Marianne I think he had too much and I never thought of it but you're right again if the new med doesn't work out we can always try phenobarb again. Hugs ladies

[labblab]

I think the really unfortunate part is that the vet tech did not acknowledge the obvious when you picked him up -- that Buddy was impaired. It would have been very helpful if she had explained it was because they needed to load him with a sizable dose of the drug quickly because of the severity/frequency of those seizures. With oral dosing, it takes up to a couple of weeks for the drug to reach a truly therapeutic level. In their defense, probably the reason why they didn't advise you to skip the evening dose is because phenobarb has such a short half-life, and in their estimation, the seizure control is more important in the short-run than is the dopiness. Without the evening oral dose, the benefit of the IV loading is perhaps already being lost.

I say all of this just to warn you that Buddy may start seizuring again until you get the new drug onboard. If so, it is not because he is worse, per se, but because he is lacking a therapeutic level of anticonvulsant protection. Hopefully this alternative drug will be relatively fast-acting, though, and you can get him started on it right away. Definitely keep us updated, OK?

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

I have never dealt with seizures in a dog, but I can only imagine what you are going thru with your precious baby. I hope and pray for good t come of this and that is does well with no more episodes. That must have been the worst moment of your life when this happened to your Buddy. God Bless you both
Patti

[labblab]

I've just been reading a bit more about zonisamide, and one thing I saw is that you should definitely price-shop. A 2012 article cited a price range between over $200 for a month's supply at one chain pharmacy to only $15 at Costco! Wow, that is a big difference!

[Trish]

Gosh so sorry you and Buddy are going through this. Sounds just awful for you all to go through. What Marianne said sounds very sensible to me too, I guess it takes a while for their bodies to adjust to the new med. I hope he does not have any more seizures while you get the drugs sorted out and I hope he has perked up today and is feeling better. Big Hugs x

[molly muffin]

How is Buddy doing? I hope he is better today.

I agree with Marianne, they should have warned you about what you would see with Buddy, before you saw him and why. Sheezzzz...

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Buddy woke this morning still wobbly but walking better than yesterday. He walks down the ramp but i have to carry him up. He ate his food today and meds. What concerns me the most about the whole phenobarb thing is his breathing. It's shallow rapid breathing still today all the time. It's awful to watch him laying there breathing like that. I spoke to my regular vet this morning and told her I didn't give any dose of the phenobarb. She said 50% should start to leave his body in 48 hours. She then said the phenobarb doesn't completely leave the body until 10 days. She also said unfortunately it sounds like Buddy couldn't handle the amount he got. She doesn't want to start him on any other seizure medicine until 10 days. What I guess makes me upset is the fact that we weren't told what to expect from the drug itself and how would he react after the drug entered his body thru IV. If we were told he would be acting like this for a week or a month we would have said no for sure. Plus we weren't told he had CHF until after they started the phenobarb. I would have liked to know that his breathing would be altered by the drug because adding that to the already breathing problem he had is not good. I keep thinking how is he gonna pull through this and wonder if he doesn't. My diary notes of sept 30 says how happy he was, his cushings have been controlled, and he was eating well. Then I get him a rabies shot oct 15 and everything went haywire.

[molly muffin]

I'm hoping that his breathing will go back to the way it was before once the drug leaves his body.
Poor little mite. Hopefully he'll get better ever day and you'll have your Buddy back to normal soon.

Hang in there.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

I'm so sorry that Buddy's behavior is still abnormal enough to be worrying. Like Sharlene, I surely hope that you'll see more improvement as the hours go by.

I hope that you won't beat yourself up, though, or even the emergency vet (too much, anyway :rolleyes:), for having treated Buddy. The situation you described to us -- escalating severe seizures within a 6-hour time period -- is not something that could be ignored, and phenobarb remains a first-line drug choice for many clinicians. The thing is, I'm sure the fear was that the seizures would increase in frequency and become virtually uncontrollable. That's what happened to our next-door neighbors and their dog had to be put down on the spot. You want to nip a severe seizure cycle in the bud. Now that's not to say that the phenobarb dosage used at the ER was appropriate under the circumstances -- I can't speak to that. And they definitely dropped the ball in terms of discharge instructions! But I hope you'll stop second-guessing yourselves in terms of making a treatment decision at the time. The seizures you are describing were awful and may have increased out of control.

As far as waiting for ten days before starting alternative treatment, I'm not sure why your vet is proposing that since from what I've read, this new drug is often used as an add-on to phenobarb when phenobarb is not controlling seizures as effectively as you wish. So the two drugs can be, and frequently are, used together. Especially if Buddy were to have another seizure during this interim, I'd sure want to talk with your vet about speeding up the treatment.

Last but not least, I know it is feeling right now as though everything has come up suddenly. But you've told us that Buddy had at least one other seizure episode back during the summer. Even though he was not actively seizuring during the intervening months, was there any other unusual behavior at all? I ask this because in retrospect, we now realize that Peg was probably having mini-episodes for a long time before she had her first major seizure. We would get up in the morning and discover that she had spit-up during the night, and sometimes during the day she would jump up out of a sound sleep and start this weird behavior where she kept turning around and kind of snapped at her rear-end. It wasn't a big enough deal to make anything out of, but I always thought, "that is so weird that she keeps repeating this same behavior time and time again." We have never again seen either of those behaviors since starting the phenobarb, so I have to believe that they were precursors to the grand mal episodes.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I hope you won't be harsh on yourselves re: treating the seizures. Now that they are over, it may feel as though you had a choice about it. But at the time, I can't imagine you opting out of treatment for him given those circumstances. :o

Once again, I'll keep my fingers crossed that he soon starts perking up for you!

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

God Bless you and your sweet Buddy, I am so sorry you are going thru this.
Patti

[Concernedmom]

I wanted to wish everyone a Happy and safe Thanksgiving. Thank you for all the well wishes for Buddy. Marianne I really want to thank you again for all your help. It really makes a difference talking to someone that has gone through it before. You are right I have to put all this in perspective. My biggest upset was not really knowing in advance what the drug was, what the IV dose would do, and what would happen afterwards. I'm usually one to ask lots of questions and I didn't do that this time because I was so concerned about how stressed he was going to be staying there. Our whole conversation with the vet was about that and nothing else and that's where I beat myself up because that's not me. She is the professional and she should have discussed it. I do understand what you're saying about him needing the IV. Today he's walking better but his breathing is still shallow/rapid. I am going to do what you say and not blame myself and let it go. I had just found out my sis has leukemia and I am not feeling well lately either so it doesn't surprise me that we were't thinking straight with also not getting much sleep the night before. I seem to always second guess myself when it comes to my babie. I will talk to my vet about waiting 10 days. I'm not sure why she wants to wait. He had an episode July 2nd. I wasn't even sure it was a seizure the vet labeled it. I really thought it was a vestibular episode as I had seen one of my other dogs go through it. I didn't notice any odd behaviors after that until the October incident.
Gotta get to bed. Safe holiday

[goldengirl88]

Wishing you and your sweet Buddy a Happy Thanksgiving. We are all blessed to have our babies with us this holiday. I hope and pray for improvement on your dear Buddy. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister having leukemia.

How is Buddy doing today? Hopefully a little bit better each day. Hows the breathing?

Remember to take care of yourself. It's easy to end up feeling run down and catching something when you are constantly in a state of worry.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Buddy is doing better each day. His breathing is labored but better than it was. The cold seems to bother him more now. Like he breaths it in and it bothers him. It never used to. He'll go down the ramp and we carry him up because when I tried letting him come up on his own he began having a coughing fit. It must be the fluid in his lungs and it's just gonna take time. He also seems to gag every time he eats treats. Like he's congested. He gets so excited he won't pick his head up and he snorts and starts choking. We have to watch him. Do you think that could be the fluid in the lungs? He drinks and pees so much from the lasix he doesn't even want to go outside anymore. You open the door and he just stands there like " not again". We had one of the grass pottys from a few years ago that you put in the house and the dogs would never use it so we put it away and I took the grass only and put it on the deck to see if he would just go on that instead of having to walk down the ramp. So far isn't working. I even put some of his pee on it. Oh the things we do!!!! We also have to keep a belly band on him now because he will pee in the house even though I put him out every hour and we just put down a new carpet. I've never seen a carpet like this before. The pee lays on top and doesn't sink in the rug. You just blot and it's gone. Not even a smell. We have carpet in every room but none are like this but of course they're older. It's really nice clean up. Anyways Buddy has a spark back in his eye we just need his breathing to get better then we try to figure out the seizure meds. I want to thank everyone for being there with me through all this. I know it's hard on all of us going through the different medical issues with our babies. I wish they could be with us forever.

[goldengirl88]

I don't remember you saying but does Buddy have heart problems? Is that why he is on Lasix? Some of the things you talked about sound like congestive heart failure to me, the coughing etc. Has Buddy ever had any tracheal issues? The snorting etc. and not handling the cold air normally could have something to do with that. Tipper had tracheal issues and does some of the things you were describing like snorting. I do not take her out to walk unless it is 32 or above as she has a heart murmur and the heart must work harder in colder weather and the blood vessels get smaller from the cold. It puts more stress on their hearts. Extreme heat is bad also. I am hoping things get settles for you and that you dear Buddy starts feeling on the mend. This has been a tough thing to go thru, my heart goes out to you. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hi, checking in to see how Buddy is doing? Is the breathing any better?

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Me too wanting to know how Buddy is doing??

[Concernedmom]

Hi Patti and Sharlene I'm very happy to report today that my boy is almost back to his normal self. His breathing is better and can now walk up the ramp on his own without the rapid breaths. He's just a bit slower than before. No running up the ramp but that's ok we can live with that. We haven't heard him cough either. Before any of this happened with the seizures we were noticing that when he got up from laying down he would cough and was coughing more while walking that's why the hospital did the chest X-ray and told us he had fluid in his lungs and was in congestive heart failure. The vet wasn't absolutely sure so had a radiologist look at the X-ray to confirm. The cold did bother him last week but I'm not sure if it still will since his breathing is better. I'm wondering if the lasix is kicking in because he's also not drinking as much as a couple of days ago. Yes Patti a couple of years ago he was diagnosed with a collapsed trachea. He had this awful honking cough and they took X-rays and told us it was the trachea. They told us to put him on a diet and gave us cough syrup. The cough went away and the trachea never bothered him again. But we do notice that when he puts on a couple extra pounds he does choke more on treats. As you know taking extra weight off is very difficult. They sure love food. We have to do what's best for them and be the tuff mum. Now we have to get Buddy on seizure medicine and we're hoping the side effects won't be like the phenobarbital. We love watching his happy face again. He's even playing his puzzles and actually found his voice again. Nice to hear it. Hope Tipper is doing well and Molly. Thanks for checking in. Hugs.

[doxiesrock912]

Good news! I hope that the trend continues.

[Squirt's Mom]

So glad to hear that Buddy is feeling much better and hope it continues! I'm sure this has been a scary and stressful time and you are now overjoyed to see him so much more like his old self. :):cool::)

[labblab]

This is great news! All fingers crossed that the new medication will work better for Buddy. :)

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

I am so glad to see some good news this morning. I hope Buddy continues to improve. I am glad you told me about cooking for Buddy and that it does help. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Yay!! So glad to hear that Buddy is doing well and continues to improve. That is good news indeed. Now to just get those seizures under control with a med that Buddy can tolerate and we'll be back on the right path again.

You're doing great! What a scare it has been though.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

I am just checking in on little Buddy to see how he is today. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Omg this is just too much too handle. Buddy and I have this ritual every morning that after I eat breakfast I give him some crumbs of banana bread on a paper plate to lick. I have a recipe for banana bread that I make in 2 small loaf pans. I cut the loafs in small sections and freeze them to take out as needed so they won't go bad. Anyways we've been doing this ritual even before my other dog died. I hold the plate and he licks. Yesterday morning while he was licking the plate I noticed his head gave a shiver and he lost balance. This morning same thing but today he was a basket case. He was constantly at the water dish. He would drink then walk away then go back then go outside to pee then half hour or so he would do it all over again. This went on a lot of the day. He was awake a lot of the day too when he would usually sleep a little bit. Tonight my husband and I were standing in the kitchen and he just came in from outside went straight to the water dish, drank, turned around and almost fell. Then 2 minutes later he went back to the water dish turned around and I saw his eye twitch and his head started to shake a little and he lost his balance a little bit. He caught himself and walked back to the dish. We finally had to pick up the dish. But I thought oh know he's gonna have a seizure I just know it. Something's wrong. He's been acting like he has dementia all day loaded with energy and now this. Tomorrow is day 10 of the waiting period from the phenobarb but i did call my vet Monday and found out she she wouldnt be around until Friday. So now I pray he doesn't have a seizure until then. I still haven't gotten any questions answered about the zonisamide. I don't even know how fast it gets in the system. I don't even know if its gonna help because maybe this is just a tumor growing in his brain and there isn't anything we can give him to do anything about it. My husband is now very leary about even giving him any seizure med because of the side effects but if you don't give it and he has a seizure "what do you do then?" This is just so hard. So many questions and no answers. Here I am worrying and watching him tonight and he's running around like a happy camper. These wonderful animals live in the moment and just want to have fun. None of this bothered him at all. We have come to realize we will be very lucky if we get to spend another 6 months with him. We know it wont be longer than that. We will just shower him with lots of love while he's here.

[Concernedmom]

This may be a stupid question but has anyone's pup have to shake their body constantly?
Buddy never use to do this all the time just every now and then like a normal dog would do but within the last 6 months he is always having to shake. The kind of body shake as when they just got a bath.
I keep wondering if this total body and head shake has anything to do with this growing tumor in his brain. He must do it at least 7 x a day. Any thoughts?

[molly muffin]

Oh darn, I'm sorry that Buddy is having these, what sound like mini seizures maybe? I think the key is going to be just like with any medicine, start low and work up as needed. That might have made a great deal of difference if they had done that rather than the IV pheno.

It is hard when you can see the changes they are going through. On one hand though he does seem to have more energy, wonder what that is about. How is his thyroid? I wonder because of the drink/pee/drink/pee routine. Sounds like it might be off a bit.

Maybe one of the others have had the shake thing increased. Molly has always given herself such hard shakes that she comes right off the ground and then takes off running like a wild thing. For her it seems to be a feel good thing. I'm not sure that is the case though with Buddy, as so many of his actions today especially seem to be extreme reactions to any stimuli. So, that could be the case with the shaking too.

You do the best you can for them and just try to enjoy ever single day with him, however long that might be and I do hope that it is for a long time to come.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

I'm so sorry, too, that Buddy is having these issues. And yes, now it is sounding more as though there have been some precursors to the seizures for several months now.

I do understand your concern about side effects. But I do have to repeat that with the anticonvulsant medications, the side effects tend to subside as the dog gets adjusted to the medication. You have to be willing to give it longer than just a day or two. And the trade-off between the two options -- having a dog who is acting somewhat sedated and uncoordinated for a couple of weeks vs. a dog who is actively seizing -- you are picking the lesser of two evils. Having witnessed grand mal seizures in my dog, the choice was really clear-cut to me. If the seizures continue to worsen for Buddy, I am betting you will feel the same way.

Did your vet give you any instructions as to how to handle things if Buddy starts having full-blown seizures again? I would be very disappointed if she has just left you hanging during this interim time period! If he starts having uncontrollable rapid seizures again, you will have to address them again immediately via medication of some sort.

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Maybe his body or skin is has a funny sensation and he is trying to shake it off?? I am wondering since you said about Buddy eye twitching. Tipper's eye does this at nite when she starts with what I call muscle tremors which ripple the skin on her side and her legs jerk. I am wondering if these are mini seizures, but she does this only at nite when she sleeps. I noticed when it is happening her eye twitching that is why I am asking you about Buddy. Hope he is improving and his body gets used to the seizure drugs soon, as I know this is really hard for you to take. God Bless you Both
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Back again. I got an email from my vet. She said the anti-seizure medication help to prevent a seizure but won't prevent other potentially serious neurological complications. The side effects of zonisamide are greatly less than those with phenobarbital with the exception of a slight lowering of his thyroid level. She isn't concerned though because we are treating him for this.
She doesn't think the tremors I described would cause a seizure but are seperate neurological signs secondary to the pituitary tumor. The seizures themselves are a separate symptom-over time and repeated seizures can cause changes within the brain that make future seizure activity more likely. She said in terms of reducing what symptoms we can, she thinks it makes sense to consider an antiseizure medication. I am getting a script filled locally to be ready tomorrow afternoon for the seizure med.
I asked her the question I always ask every vet when it comes to near the end. "if it were your dog what would you do? Consider a neurologist appt and an MRI or just do what we're doing and treat with seizure med?" Didn't get an answer. I would appreciate anyone's response on that question. He's 13 1/2 has cushings hypothyroidism and a very fearful anxiety ridden dog. Even if we did do the MRI what then? There isn't much to do for the pituitary tumor or a brain tumor is there? Is there someone that has gone through the cushings and the pituitary tumor growing to eventually having to let them go?? Patti I have read about your Tipper and the jerking of the legs while sleeping. How awful. Buddy has the leg shaking while standing sometimes and when he is laying down in a certain position. Not nearly as bad as you describe for Tipper. I had a cavalier that had mitral valve disease and his back legs shook something awful and it did that because of his heart. Just something to maybe look into. Are those muscles spasms that Tipper is having on her sides? Can you take a video and show the vet maybe they can come up with some answers for you?

[molly muffin]

If an MRI confirmed a macro tumor, then the option is a combination prednisone/vetroyl, this was tried for awhile until the seizures got too bad by one of our members.
We currently have a member undergoing radiation therapy in California and another member who will be going to the same university in california to look into it for her pup.
Radiation therapy is not done in one or more likely 3 treatments and then the tumors hopefully shrinks, allowing them to go on and live a fairly normal life for a few more years.
I looked it up, in the U.K. this would be a some place like http://www.vrcc.co.uk/ or http://hospital.vet.cam.ac.uk/oncology.html
There might be others, this is the first two that came up when I was searching.
I think it depends, if you were to get a consult and if it is likely that this is a macro tumor, would Buddy be a candidate for treatment, and then there would be questions to ask the consult team.
I guess I would consider how long and what quality of life he would have without that kind of treatments what treatment would do for him. Any financial considerations would have to be thought about too.
It can all be very confusing and emotional.
I'm sure some of the others will be along to give their thoughts too.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

If Buddy were my dog, I would focus first on seeing whether or not the seizures can be adequately controlled with the medication, and whether any of his other abnormal behavior also resolves. In our Peg's case, that is the decision we made, even though we realize there is a possibility that a tumor may be the cause of the problem. We knew in advance that we would not proceed with conventional radiation treatment if a tumor was identified, and therefore we opted out of an MRI. But that was also at a time period before a cutting-edge, short-term radiation therapy was being discussed (and I don't know whether it is even available yet in the area in which we live).

Of course you know Buddy best, though, and if you think he would be a candidate for more aggressive diagnostics and treatment, Sharlene has given you some excellent food for thought. Given your description of things, though, as I say -- I wouldn't fault you for starting with the medication first and seeing how things proceed from there.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I would definitely try the medication first too.

If that doesn't Work, then there are some options.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

I found a post from June 2011 that Kathy wrote about her dog Macy. I'm sure you're probably familiar with her. I learned a lot from her and I thank her for telling her story. I can't say enough how much it helps to read about others.
You are right we need to decide if Buddy could even go through the whole process of an MRI and radiation and the answer is no. He's very frail now. He needs to be treated for the seizures as suggested so that's what we're gonna do. We pick up the zonisamide tonight. He will get 25 mg twice a day. I asked the vet if she has others on it and she said yes and they're doing very well. She said the drug that neurologists go to first is keppra and zonisamide. Thanks I'll keep you posted.

[goldengirl88]

I think you are doing a good job of evaluating your options. You know Buddy best, and what he is able to handle. These decisions are never easy for any of us. Know that I support you and pray for you and sweet Buddy. I pray this will help him improve. Blessings
Patti

[labblab]

Oh, good luck starting the medication! We're rooting for you guys!!!

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Yes we are totally rooting for this medicationb to do the trick for Buddy. Then maybe he won't be so frail any longer either, once these things are addressed.

We are always grateful for each member on here and for all who have come before, as their journey's help us all to learn from each other. If even one journey helps another, then it is of benefit.

hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Just checking in to see how Buddy is doing today? I am hoping this new medicine does the trick and he improves. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

I have a question about hypothyroidism if someone could answer for me. Buddy is losing his appetite more every day along with not wanting to eat treats he used to love. The vet says this is all the pituitary tumor growing and not much we can do now. I also keep wondering about his thyroid. We had the test done Nov 5 and he started 0.2 mg Nov 20. If his thyroid is still low won't it cause loss of appetite and wanting to sleep a lot? Maybe it isn't a high enough dose. We aren't testing again till Jan 6. I asked the vet if it could be thyroid and she said no because by now the medication should have increased his appetite. It just seems as though everyone wants to blame the tumor because it's Known he has it because of cushings. I'm the one that asked to check his thyroid in the beginning. Any thoughts? Thanks

[Squirt's Mom]

When my thyroid levels are low, my appetite, urination, and thirst are greatly increased as is hair loss. When the dose is increased and the levels are higher those things return to their usual state and I have to start shaving again. :D That's not to say that a loss of appetite couldn't be attributed to low thyroid levels but that isn't how it works in my body. If you are concerned, I would insist on having the thyroid level checked if for no other reason than to settle the question in your mind. Vets have been known to be wrong before. ;)

[Concernedmom]

After seeing him this morning I would have thought it was the end for him. My husband found him at 5 am when he usually gets up with him, in the bed at the front door. He has never once laid in that bed. Wouldn't eat 6 am but will take all medicines with deli roast beef. He went back to bed as always and will get up with me at 10 am to eat. This morning he wouldn't get up. When he did get up he didn't even want to look at food. I think he drank once and went to lay at the front door. By this time he usually has lots of water. Around 12:30 he went into the bedroom to his bed shaking and chattering teeth. I wrapped him in blankets and he slept till 2:00. He just looked terrible. At 2:00 he got up went outside walked around a bit looked pretty good and alert. I knew he wouldn't eat his normal food so I heated up some hamburg and gave him some from my hand then left it in the bowl. He finally went to eat it. The rest of this afternoon he had more energy was scruffing his blanket, rolling around in his toys for awhile. Still not back to who Buddy is but better than this morning. It seems like the morning he is in lala land and the afternoon he becomes a little normal. Will eat some things but not others. It confuses me so much. Is this the tumor or the thyroid or both. If it is the thyroid then that can be fixed but my vet says you can't test until 6-8 weeks from start date. I was so afraid this morning that I made my phone calls to make sure my arrangements are in place for when we have to lay him to rest. We will cremate and since I use a mobile vet we need to bring him to another vets office so the place we want him cremated at can pick him up. This was very nice of the other vet to let us drop buddy off there. We don't want to worry about what to do at the last minute. One day at a time. It becomes very hard when their appetite goes haywire. Never knowing if it will come back. Don't know what to feed them to get them to eat because you don't want to cause upset stomachs changing foods constantly. How do others deal with the change? What do you give them to help the stomachs?

[doxiesrock912]

Daisy is on a 1/16th of a tablespoon of Tylan (Tylosin) powder twice a day. She hasn't had diarrhea at all and eats well despite taking Vetyrol.

Might be worth asking your vet about?

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh, how very scary. I too would go ahead and ask for the thyroid test, 6-8 weeks be darned. Something is making him off with his food and that he is "picking up" later in the day after eating and being more normal, well, that to me says something is off which may not be a macro. I know that sometimes it Is a macro, but not always and not even generally, so I'd pursue finding out if there is an issue with the thyroid. Anyone say what the result would be if withheld the thyroid med for a couple days to see if it makes a difference or have you already tried that? I don't know enough about it to say do or don't, but it's a thought and what I would likely do.
Hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

My heart is broken after reading your post. My God this disease is horrible. I just wanted to add if you go to the vet to get the thyroid checked ask if Buddy could have some periactin. It stimulates them to eat as I know I have to give it to my cat. It doesn't help find the problem, but addresses the eating issue before he loses too much weight. You are being so brave and strong at this time, I just want you to know I hope I can be like this too. God Bless You All
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Sad news Buddy had another seizure early this morning and we were not there to console him. He had wandered the house when it happened at 3:30 am. Right afterwards he had these awful snorting episodes. Hard to describe but sounded like he was congested. He went to the water dish and couldn't even drink. He is ok today but we know this tumor has taken a toll on him. He wants to eat but somehow his brain is telling him not to. Wouldn't eat again today and this morning was the first time he would not take his pills with the roast beef. We called the vet and asked about predisone as I read on this site of people saying it reduces the pressure in his head and sometimes they will get better. My vet said that it was a steroid though and would bring out his cushings. With a really heavy heart and through tears we think its time to let Buddy rest before he gets any worse. We are feeling that we are just prolonging what we know is coming and don't want him to suffer and then we have to scramble to get him euthanized. She is coming in 1 hour. I keep going back and forth with my decision because during the day he seems "so called" normal and early morning he seems out of it. How do you make this decision? We just keep coming up with the same conclusion "he's just gonna get worse" the tumor isn't going away. The last time we said we will wait till tomorrow to put our dog down he woke up at 2am in such head pain that we felt so guilty that we didn't do it sooner. This is so hard. My heart is breaking. He is my last dog in the house. I always say you will know. They will tell you but this time he isn't telling me. Even if he starts to eat and even if he was on seizure medication the neurological symptoms are just getting worse. I just don't know. My husband says yes and I say I don't know.

[labblab]

I am so, so sorry that you all are struggling so. No matter what you decide, my heart is with you.

I am sending you my thoughts of strength and comfort.
Marianne

[goldengirl88]

I am too so sorry about Buddy having another seizure, nothing can prepare you for this. My heart is breaking for you, tears are flowing as I am typing knowing what you are going thru. There is no real answer here, but in your heart you have to do what you feel is best for your baby. I am with you and support you no matter what you decide. Please know that I will be thinking of you and dear Buddy. God Bless You Both
Patti

[goldengirl88]

I can't stop thinking about you and Buddy. I pray things are better. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Well I have been making myself so sick all afternoon and couldn't stop crying. It just didn't seem right to me and so we didn't do it. Maybe we made the wrong decision. I don't know but every other dog I had put to sleep I was very comfortable with it. I can't explain it I just knew and today I was too conflicted. The vet came, we discussed and she said some people want to do it before their dog gets really bad and others don't it's an individual choice. I told her I just felt like my dog had a seizure and now I have to put him down and that doesn't seem like a good enough reason. She totally understood and felt that you shouldn't put a dog down just for a seizure either so we all decided to put him on half a dose of the zonisamide twice a day and see if that helps control the seizures. We understand now that the side effects we thought he had from the zonisamide was probably the tumor. The side effect he should have is just some grogginess but that should adjust in 3-4 days. We know he has an appetite because we bought a cooked chicken today and he ate that like crazy. The vet said there is no rhyme or reason for his different appetite now. It is what it is now due to the tumor and we just have to give him what he wants to eat. So we bought him some chicken, steak, and I'm gonna make that bone broth that I saw Dr Becker make and see if he will eat. I think he will. We chose what medicines are the most important so when he won't take them anymore we will know what to try and get down him like the lasix and thyroxine and zonisamide and the cushing remedies. She gave him a physical and his heart sounded good lungs clear. She checked his eyes and they are not bloodshot. His breath smells but she didn't think it was anything to worry about. Not a kidney or diabetes smell. Just doggy breath. Buddy was barking up a storm as he usually does to people in the house but that was kinda nice to hear. We know his tumor is growing and his neurological signs will get worse probably each day but today we don't think he was ready. You can always see it in their eyes and I just couldn't see it. Tomorrow or the day after is another story. Thank you for all your support.

[addy]

I have no answers for you, just gentle hugs and a shoulder to lean on.
This is so hard.

[goldengirl88]

I have to admit being scared to log on and find out you had euthanized Buddy. Somehow if eel like you do that it is not his time. I am so sorry you have to go thru this. Please take care of yourself and buy Buddy anything he will eat. I am glad he ate the chicken it made me happy knowing he ate. God Bless You All.
Patti

[molly muffin]

I just saw your posts of what happened with Buddy today. So sorry :( you must have been terrified. okay so feed buddy whatever he will eat. Get some good protein in him and maybe also try blending in some boiled vegs? I hope he will settle and this med hlp with the seisures hugs sharlene

[doxiesrock912]

I'm glad that you listened to yourself. When we've made that dreaded decision, there were no doubts. Not a single one. I hope that Buddy continues to improve.

[Trish]

Gosh what a day you have had, so sorry to read about the latest seizure. But it sounds like you have talked it through logically with your vet and I very much hope tomorrow is a better day for Buddy and also you and your hubby... Big Hugs xxxxx

[Squirt's Mom]

You listened to your gut and it sounds as if it was telling you the truth, as it usually does. ;) Enjoy that sweet boy as much as you can for as long as you can. None of us, regardless of the health status of our babies, is promised one second more with them than this very second. You're a good mom and I know Junior trusts you completely.

My thoughts and prayers remain with you all.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

I agree with Leslie, enjoy your baby as much as you can for every second you can. I am hoping and praying that today is a better day for you both. Blessings
patti

[Freckles#3/Louise]

I am just catching up on this thread now and want to let you know that I would have done just the same. Buddy was clearly talking to his Mom but I am glad the Vet came and did the exam. I thought I was facing the same decision this morning but it turned out that no decision was needed after Freckles saw the Dr at the emergency room.

I have had hyperthyroidism and am now hypothyroid so I have experienced all the varied symptoms. If Buddy has an under active thyroid, all body systems slow down including digestion. It could cause an upset tummy that makes certain foods unappealing. The dose could not be enough and I would not wait for the 6-8 weeks either. It is a simple blood test, but even that never tells the whole story of hypothyroidism. The quality of life affected by the symptoms are more important than those test results.

Getting the dose right for thyroid, like Cushings, is a trial and error experience and we, as their voice, have to speak up. Although my own thyroid doctor keeps me on the same dose of synthroid, I know that if I call him with symptoms that show too much or too less medicine, he will immediate change my dose. I am the only one who knows if the does is right for me, even if the test says it should be right.

I, too, would be concerned if everything is blamed on the tumor, when other, fixable issue are happening at the same time that can affect his quality of life.

{{{hugs}}}
Louise

[Concernedmom]

I can't stop crying from reading your responses and it's hard to write through the tears. I know everyone has come down the road I am on now and totally understands how it feels to struggle with this decision. You want their quality of life to be good but what I think is a good quality of life right now may not be what someone else thinks is. His quality of life is just different than when he was a pup, different than when he was in his teens and now different in his senior years. It is still hard to know this mentally without always second guessing yourself. I've done this 4 times before and I always knew and I keep saying why don't I know. Why? The others were always clear cut with their diseases and with Buddy he has so many things going on at once. He was up at 3 am to pee and poop and drink. Went back to bed till 5:30 then back up to pee and take meds. No breakfast. But that's ok. He got up with me at 9 and I offered him the same cooked chicken and he ate it. Then he slept for awhile. During the day while I was cooking in the kitchen he was laying down watching me which is something he hadn't done in a few days. Usually he goes in the other room to be alone. Maybe the food is giving him more energy. I know when I don't eat I feel crappy. He isn't his normal happy self that he used be before the hospital visit with the phenobarb but I don't think he will be that self again. This may just be the new Buddy.
Marianne I did read your story about Barkis and want to thank you for writing it. It could not have been easy. I see a lot of similarities with your story. Did Barkis lose his appetite at the beginning and later stopped eating completely? I'm struggling because every dog we had to let go for whatever disease they had they all stopped eating and drinking and that was always our sign. But with Buddy he hasn't done that. He may not want the foods he used to love but he will eat if you can find something that is enticing to him. Like this morning he dived in for the cooked chicken. But this afternoon I fried up a prime rib steak. Cut into small pieces without the fat, put it in front of him and he smelled and smelled and took one piece looked at us as if to say what's the big deal. We're saying this is prime rib it's delicious. He then decided it was good and ate it. So when I get a reaction like that about food I feel like even if he wants to sleep and can't play like he used to he isn't suffering and he isn't saying yet "it's time to go."
This is so hard. I don't know if my heart can take this again and again but I know the love you get in return is indescribable. Thanks everyone. Hope your little ones are doing well.

[goldengirl88]

I have to take my hat off to you, as you are doing an excellent job with Buddy. I don't know how you are holding up thru all of this but I am glad you are. I realize how difficult the last few days have been, but I feel you know your Buddy better than anyone, and whatever you do I support you and I am right here to help any way I can. There will come a time when this disease has a cure, but sadly I don't see that happening with all of our babies. Just know I am thinking of you and precious Buddy. Blessings
Patti

[My sweet Ginger]

Hi, I didn't get a chance to read your entire posts about Buddy but from what I've read recently I have to say there are some symptoms your Buddy and my Ginger both share. Ginger's quality of life was already dramatically diminished by the time she was diagnosed with cushings disease which was around the beginning of Oct. of this year.
We attributed those symptoms solely to her age and even thought she was going senile. I'd never heard the word cushings until then so no one had raised any question as to why Ginger was doing so poorly this past year. She will be 14 years young in 9 days. As sad as we were we had to take that as a course of nature and were hoping she will live a peaceful and comfortable remaining years with lots of love around her. Although her road to Lysodren treatment hasn't been ideal or easy still with her lowered cortisol in her body she is actually doing a little better overall at the moment compared to right before, give and take.
She is still very protective of her owner according to her IMS and still does a 'hurry up, mom' barks often enforce meal time tho she doesn't always eats it and is greeting me at the door with the other dogs when I come home from an outing which gives me a great joy. She follows me everywhere I go and watches me or sleep in the kitchen in her bed while I'm cooking. Some might question where is the quality of life. I will say she is not in pain, she knows me, picky but still wants food and eats, shows interest in what I'm doing and I'm committed to her and she teaches me what love is everyday and that's more than enough for me to keep her. I only hope this lasts a long time. I'm not trying to sway you to one way or another but to tell you that what I'm comfortable with my baby at this stage in her life. I'm going to keep her with me as long as she is in no pain and not suffering and eats on her own and loves me back. If I do otherwise I know it's going to kill me for the rest of my life. She has given me her absolute devotion and loyalty and love all through her life and I just feel it's now my turn to return what I can do for her until that day comes.
That's just how I feel. You have to do what you feel comfortable with the decision you can live with and you know yourself and your dog the best and no one else. I will support you 100% in your decision because I know you will put Buddy's interest first as all parents would out of love for their babies. Take care. Song.

[Bailey's Mom]

Well I have been making myself so sick all afternoon and couldn't stop crying. It just didn't seem right to me and so we didn't do it. Maybe we made the wrong decision.

As much as we might sometimes think we'd like someone to tell us what is the "right" decision, there is not anyone who can do that for us. In circumstances like this it is just very, very hard to know when it is "time." I went through this exact scenario with Palmer and it was gut wrenching. It reached a point where he would not look me in the face. He would not eat anything we offered. In one week he dropped 6 pounds and he only weighed 14 or so when he was healthy. He was put on IVs to keep liquids in him and we were going to have to give him fluids at home, intravenously. We had tried every test and every procedure that was available to us. This came on relatively suddenly. He had been doing pretty well. His numbers had been looking good and he had been looking good. But within a number of weeks everything seemed to fall apart. He did not want to lie near me which was very unlike him. He did not want to sit on my lap which was totally unlike him. All of the special foods that had worked in the past were no longer working. Those "sure winners" just had no appeal.

My husband took Palmer outside in the morning and when they came back in, my husband was crying, asking me how long we were going to keep this up. We already had a vet appointment to be shown how to do the IV fluid administering. When Palmer would not look me in the eye, would not eat, needed fluids just to live, had lost so much weight, his quality of life had slipped below what was acceptable. I could not bear to make him go on. Our son was able to be with us that day and for that weekend. The three of us took Palmer over to the vet's office and told her of our decision. Now four of us were crying! It was very peaceful. It was the right thing to do. I have no regrets.....I just still miss Palmer so very much and it's been more than 3 years now. The pain was absolutely incredible, but the support I received from my friends here helped me get through it. They understood and someone was always available to respond whatever time of day or night I was hurting....for as long as I needed it.

I am so very sorry for your pain and for you having to go through this. How often I wished the ending would come during a night's sleep. It was not to be. As it was, I held Palmer in my arms, firmly and securely with all the love I have to give. It was a place he was very familiar with-in my lap, in my arms. It was a safe place. He was comfortable and relaxed. He was peaceful. He no longer had to struggle or be in pain or take medication he detested.

Somehow you will arrive at your own decision in your own time. Before that happens, we are here to support you as you struggle with what is and try to help ease some of the pain you have to deal with. Whenever you round that corner, we will be here as well to help you find your way down a different path. That is one of the many blessings of this forum. I hope you will keep in touch.

Susan

[goldengirl88]

Just checking in on sweet Buddy. I hope you both had a quiet weekend, and that Buddy did well. Stay safe and warm. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Prayers out to you and sweet Buddy, thinking of you. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Early this morning my baby had another seizure coming in from outside. The moment he came up the ramp in slow motion I knew something was terribly wrong. He crossed the deck with his head down and the minute he stepped in the door he vomited flem and went right into seizure in my arms. It didn't last long but after it was over he began snorting and sneezing as though some of the flem was in his nose. He was very uncomfortable. He also was whining as though he was in pain. Maybe the pressure in his brain?
We had already planned for the vet to come today at 9 am because we knew he wasn't going to get better. One day he would eat a little next he wouldn't eat. He was having pee accidents in his bed and sleeping more of the day away. We would see glimpses of the Buddy we knew but not many. The seizure at 3:30 this morning proved we were making the right decision. He was restless till 9am but we got to spend time talking to him and loving on him. He did need a sedative first. The euthanasia was peaceful for him with lots of hugs and tears. Since our vet did not use the cremation service we wanted to use our former vet was nice enough to let us bring Buddy to them so our service could pick him up from there. We used this service for all our pets. It was nice because for the first time we were able to have the vet leave and Buddy stayed with us until we were ready to drop him off. We had a lot of time to be together and love him and lay with him. This was the most difficult decision we ever made for any of our pets. The ups and downs of trying to figure out once their appetite changes could this be something else besides the tumor. We've come to realize it is all the tumor. This cushings disease really is deadly. We had another dog in 2006 who died from the same disease and we watched her go downhill fast once this tumor started to grow. Just as we saw with Buddy here these past couple of months. You can see it in their bodies. We remember watching video of our little girl and saying OMG look at the difference one year made to her body. She was 15 when diagnosed. Buddy 12.5.now 13.5
So now our baby is gone. I can't stop crying and the house is empty because he was the only one left of 5. He was a very special boy with unique problems brought on by his upbringing wherever that was. This is our love story with Buddy. We just lost our little girl to cushings the Maltese above. Having a very hard time. My friend the animal control officer said she had this little Maltese boy just come in and he looks like your little girl. You need to come see her. This was 2 months after we lost her. We didn't think we were ready but we went anyways. We see this dirty long haired white dog. We both crouch down and Buddy comes in between my legs trying to get away from my husband because he has an issue with men. Deathly afraid of them. We said yes right away and he barked his way into our life.
He is one special boy that we will never forget.

[doxiesrock912]

Oh honey I am so sorry! I am crying right along with you.

It sounds like you no longer have doubts about making this decision. I am grateful that Buddy spent his last moments at home with family. He is healthy again and running free meeting all of those who have left before him.

Hugs to all of you.

[Squirt's Mom]

I am sure these last few days have meant as much to Buddy as they did to you and your husband. It is wonderful that your vet could come to your home and was willing to let your old vet handle the cremation for you. That was nice of both of them and I know it helped you have less to worry about.

Your sweet boy's pain, fear and confusion is all over now. He is strong and as he was in his youth, running and playing with friends old and new. When your jobs here are done you will find Buddy along with all your other babies waiting for you at the end of The Bridge and never again will you be parted.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket, Brick, Sophie, Grace and all our Angels

A Simple Message From Your Pet
by Ken D. Conover

To have loved and then said farewell is better than to have never loved at all.
For all of the times that you stooped and touched my head, fed me my favorite treat and
returned the love that I so unconditionally gave to you. For the care that you gave to me
so unselfishly. For all of these things I am grateful and thankful. I ask that you grieve
not for the loss but rejoice in the fact that we lived, loved and touched each other's lives.
My life was fuller because you were there, not as owner, but as my friend. Today, I am
as I was in my youth. The grass is always green, butterflies flit among the flowers and
the sun shines gently down upon all of God's creatures. I can run, jump and play
and do all of the things that I did in my youth. There is no sickness, no aching joints
and no regrets and no aging. We await the arrival of our lifelong companions and know
that togetherness is forever. You live in our hearts as we do in yours. Companions such
as you are very rare and unique. Don't hold the love that you have within yourself.
Give it to another like me and then I will live forever. For love never really dies,
and you are loved and missed as surely as we are.

Your pet in heaven.

[Trixie]

I'm so sorry for your loss. Buddy sounds like he was the most special boy and you and your husband special for rescuing him. I know words don't help much when you feel such sadness, but you gave Buddy a great life while he was with you and he was able to be with you right til the end.

Barbara

[Woodydog]

I,m so sorry to hear this :( Run free Buddy all the way to the bridge where you will be pain free x

[molly muffin]

oh :( I knew that one day soon I was going to read this post and my heart was going to break for you and your husband and Buddy. I am so sorry that this time came, much too soon for anyone. He was special and so are you and your husband. You just tried so much and did everything possible to give Buddy the best life EVER and the best chance to be with your the longest time possible.

I know that your heart hurts today. My tears join yours along with many others here on the forum.

I am so glad that you got this special time to be together. Hold it close in your heart. Remember the happy days, when he played and was himself and know that this is what he would want to be remembered for.

My sincerest condolences
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

I too knew I would read this and just cry inside. I am so sorry that this all this happened. I know one thing for sure you are right about what you said about this disease. I am praying for you and your angel boy Buddy. Blessings
Patti

[My sweet Ginger]

I'm deeply sorry for the passing of your sweet Buddy today.
Please, try to take comfort in knowing that he is now where there is no more pain and confusion.
I have no doubt that he is so grateful to you and your husband for giving him such a loving home filled with love, affection, fun and lots, lots of kisses and hugs. He will forever live inside of your heart which is hurting too much right now. I'm so sorry.

[Budsters Mom]

I am so sorry for the loss of sweet Buddy. He has been welcomed at the rainbow bridge by our other fur angels. Run free sweet boy, run free!!! Xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you, hoping you are doing ok. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

I am sending my most heartfelt condolences. Never, ever easy to make that final choice.

Sail on Buddy.

[Trish]

I join the others in sending my condolences on the loss of Buddy. He and you fought the good fight and can rest assured you did your absolute best for your boy and I am so sorry it came to this xxxxx

[spdd]

I am so sorry to read this today. My thoughts are with you. Sincerest condolences and many many hugs.

[Bailey's Mom]

I am very sorry to learn of your loss. I send my deepest condolences to you. I admire and respect the courage that it took to take this difficult step and am grateful that you have a vet who would come to you and to Buddy's home for this final visit. What you describe in the end sounds so full of love and very peaceful. Buddy is still with you. He is in your heart. Peace be with you.
Hugs,
Susan

[scoora]

I am so very sorry to hear about the passing of your sweet boy Buddy.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Big hugs

[BostonLover]

I am so sorry for you loss.:( sending lots of peace and love your way.

[gatorgirl_bama]

So sorry to hear about Buddy. You'll be in my prayers.

[Cooper is missed]

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Buddy was so lucky to have you.

[goldengirl88]

Hope this finds your heart not so heavy. Know you were the best cush mom and did everything you possibly could. I am sorry for the way things went, but am glad you were able to be with Buddy in his own home. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Just wanted to pop back on and wish everyone a safe and happy holiday. Lots of love and health to your families. T

[molly muffin]

Happy Holidays! Hope you aren't getting washed out with all the rain we keep hearing about.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

A safe and happy holiday to you too. Blessings Patti

[doxiesrock912]

Happy holidays to you as well!

[goldengirl88]

Sending you big hugs and love today as you remember and celebrate your sweet Buddy's life. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Thinking of you today and sending you warm wishes for a happy new year and one that is better than the last.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Happy new year to all as well. It was a very emotional day today and for me seems to get more difficult each day. So many have lost their babes these past couple of weeks and my heart goes out to all of you. I know how much your heart is breaking. I wish someone could cure this horrible disease that takes so many of our precious animals. Lots of love.

[goldengirl88]

Just checking in on you to see how you are doing. Blessings
Patti