Introducing Fraser - our sweet Fraser has crossed The Bridge

[SoggyDoggy]

Hi Everyone, I'm just going to start with an introduction for myself and Fraser and give you all a bit of the back story. His official Diagnosis of Cushing's was just over 2 weeks ago, and he has now been on Trilostane for 2 weeks exactly. Before I go any further, so far so good! (by the way, now that I get to the end of the post, it turned out to be a long one! Sorry:o)

Anyway, so the questions started about 2 1/2 months ago. I took both of my boys (he has a brother - Oscar) to the vet to have their teeth cleaned. Because of their age Fraser 13, Oscar 12 1/2) they underwent pre anaesthetic blood tests just in case. Osca'rs came back fine :) but Fraser had some elevated levels. The Vet said to me it could be a freak result, nerves etc, or just ageing, but that we would test again in a month to be sure. Meanwhile be on the lookout for signs of Cushing's or Thyroid. So off I went, did some reading to find out what the different symptoms were for both (they gave me a brief run down, but I like specifics) and the observations began.

Meranwhile, 1 week later, Oscar decides to jump off a wall at the park and ruptured his cruciate ligaments in his right back knee. Surgery for him, complete 100% rupture. :eek: Due to the treatment required for Oscar (not to mention the price) Fraser's tests got put off a little longer than planned. Meanwhile, I had been watching him closely anyway, and in my mind he was showing classic signs of cushiness. Pot Belly got a little rounder (he has always had a slight pot), drinking more, eating alot (didn't realise at the time he was actually eating half of Ozzie's as well!) and then the skin infections started. Again he has always had flaky skin on his belly, but almost overnight it got worse and little puss spots started that would then turn scabby, the skin would pigment and then peel off in great clumps. I also noticed that his muscle tone had shifted a little around his legs. Now the good news is, he didn't lose any hair (I have one partially bald boy at this point anyway due to surgery, didn't want another!) and his legs didn't seem to be significantly weaker. He can still jump into the car and chase his ball.

I do remember saying to my sister about six months ago that he had suddenly got old - which I now know is a common thing and why so many don't spot this right away - but his mood hasn't changed, he is still a velcro dog (wants to be with you 24/7 and follows me everywhere - even to the bathroom!) he chases his ball at the park, demands his daily walk etc. So it was only the physical symptoms that had it in my mind.

Anyway, so after my wallet recovered a little, I took Fraser back to the vet to run another blood test on him. This was just an inhouse test, to see if those initial results were a fluke or not. As expected, results came back high, much higher again that last time. So next we ran a full blood screen and sent it to an outside lab for deeper screening. Results came back high and liver enzymes were elevated this time too. Vet wanted to do an ultrasound at this point and then the LDDST - honestly at this point I couldn't afford both so we went straight to the LDDST. Results came back - yep, definitely cushingoid.

Now after reading many threads here over the past few weeks (OMG some amazing superheros on this site! Seriously strong people here) I know many of you are sitting there saying "What were the numbers". I don't actually have copies of them - yes I will rectify this and get them - but I can't answer that for you at the moment. I have learnt already to ask for copies, just in case of emergency if nothing else, so will make sure I get that next time.

Anyway, we ordered medications - Trilostane - and guess what, only avalable in quantity of 100 capsules:confused:, so horrendously expensive outlay again. I really hope his dose is right - don't want to be stuck with them if not! (I'll get to that in a minute) It seems Vetoryl is not sold here, but there are certain pharmacies who will supply Trilo to the vets, in large quantity only. This is not reassuring if his dose has to change.

Yes the dose - seems we aren't starting low, but going straight to 60mg once a day. Fraser weighs just under 10kg. He is a Maltese Scottish Terrier cross. I questioned the vet about the dose and she said because it is so expensive they went straight for a dose that seems to be the most common maintenance to hopefully reduce likelyhood of changing. I'm still not sure, but so far it seems ok.

So he has now been on Trilo for 2 weeks. On day 4, appetitie dropped dramatically and he started being his usual fussy self again, only picking out the good bits (they get home prepared food specific to them - not table scraps, they aren't kibble dogs. Actually they eat better than I do!). His water intake has slowed down, and this sudden burst of energy appeared! Without knowing, I started giving him his capsule with dinner (they don't eat breakfast) so a couple of hours after dinner he would start jumping on me with his toys wanting to play! Haven't seen this amount if energy in a while!

A few days later I read here that the cap should be with breakfast because of the monitoring tests, spoke to the vet and changed to mornings instead. They now both eat breakfast too. So after two weeks now his skin has cleared up really well too, still flaky as before but no infection spots now. Energy levels are amazing, yet he is quite happy to stop and have a sleep too. Running after his ball well, panting less (forgot to mention that one earlier) and just looking brighter over all. And as far as I'm concerned, the best bit is he never stopped giving cuddles or trying to push me off the bed at night! Still very affectionate and loving.

We are due for the STIM test next week to check his progress and I will make sure to get those results along with the others, but I just wanted to introduce ourselves and say Hi. Give you a bit of backstory to start us off, and next post I will probably bombard with questions. Such as "When is the other shoe going to drop?" I can't believe it has been this easy so far, from everything I have read, it shouldn't be. Don't get me wrong, I have been plenty stressed and tearful about the whole thing, but he just seems to be getting better! No side effects to date, happy little chappy.

So on that note, we are off to the beach with my sisters and the rest of the K9 family (4 adults, 1 4yr old and 4 dogs). Thanks for reading this marathon post and I will check in again shortly.

Naomi and Boys.

[frijole]

What a cute dog! Thanks for sharing your story - can tell you've been reading on here and learning alot! You are off to a great start. Keep up the good work. Glad you found us and look forward to updates. Kim

[molly muffin]

Total cutie pie. :) Hello and welcome Naomi to you and Fraser both.
You know us well around here, that numbers things. I do like the way things are going for you so far, all well is a good thing. Hopefully he'll just settle onto that dosage and be happy. You either have or can get pred if needed? It does make one feel more comfortable to know you have it in hand, just in case.

Where is here? Not sure since you said they can get Trilostane but not Vetroyl and only in 100 mg via compounding pharmacy? We have members from all over, so never want to assume where in the world someone is located. I'm in Canada btw. :)

Really glad you took the time to drop a line and say hello. Don't worry about long posts, I do it too and some of the members can give you a long post run for your money! LOL

Can't wait to hear more. Crossing fingers for good test results and a good week ahead.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey again, thanks for the welcome and sorry, should have said in my user details where I am, I'm in the most isolated city in the world - officially! Yup, Perth West Australia. (I'll change the profile in a sec) And Molly Muffin, just to clear it up, we can get different strengths of trilostane, just not different quantities. 100 Capsules per bottle at the cheapest available price of $460 per bottle. After dropping just over $6k at the vet in 8 weeks, this wasn't pleasant news I can tell you! It's weird actually, the eastern states get Vetoryl, but apparently there is some different regulation in WA that means we can't :confused: Typical, just because we are isolated we get slugged with the weird stuff :(

Anyway after spending an hour at the beach with him and coming home for a bath, he has now finally decided to have a sleep (he ran and swam non stop. I swear, you wouldn't believe he is 13 if not for the copious amounts of grey fur!)

Before I head off again, just a quick couple of questions. I hear a lot of people talking about muscle weakness in the hind legs. Is this something that develops from cushing's or trilostane use, or something that happens because of the age of them naturally. I'm just curious as at the moment he is still pretty strong and I just want to know if it is something I can expect? I haven't really found anything on long term effects with use of Trilostane, so it is pretty much up in the air of what I have to expect from him in future. My other question then is, if a cortisol crash happens, how long does it take to present? the reason I ask is until now he has had company almost 24/7 but I will have to return to work again in a week or so and just need to be sure that he will still be safe if left for 8-9 hours at a stretch. Currently he gets his cap at 8am, I would normally leave for work within 10-15 minutes of that, but often don't get home till after 5pm. If he crashes and I come home to a non-responsive dog, I'm praying it wont be too late? While the vet didn't give me any pred, I do have a fair bit on hand anyway from Oscar's bouts of the itchy scratchy's, so we are safe that way. I told them this too, so the vets know.

He doesn't take anything else except a bit of Sacha's Blend with dinner for arthritis - it's amazing stuff, I haven't seen him limp at all for ages! While I realise some of this could be due to the cortisol in his system, he hasn't started limping again since starting treatment either. In saying that, we are heading into the warm stretch now, it's 35 degrees Celsius here today (perfect beach weather) and will probably stay around that or higher for the next 2-3 months at least. So I guess I have pretty much until June before the cool sets in and the arthritis might possibly show up again. Generally, apart from a mild heart murmur and Cushing's, he seems a pretty healthy old boy. I just pray it stays that way!:)

[Tina]

Hi Naomi, and welcome to you and Fraser! He is so cute! If you haven't seen it already, there is a thread in the Helpful Resources area of the forum with all the needed information about trilostane/Vetoryl. I think the recommendation is to have a stim test at the 2 week mark of being on the medication, so it is a good thing you have a test scheduled soon.

My baby was on Lysodren, but I believe the warning signs of low cortisol are the same for both meds. You need to watch for loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy. It sounds like you have emergency prednisone on hand, so that is good. If Fraser would develop any of the warning signs, you would stop the trilostane and contact your vet to have an ACTH test done to check the cortisol level. The prednisone can be given if needed.

I am not sure how quickly the signs of low cortisol can present with trilostane, so I don't want to give you any incorrect information. Some of the experts should be along to provide more info for you. I just basically want to welcome you to the forum. Since it sounds like you have done a bit of reading here, I am sure you have seen that this is a wonderful bunch of knowledgeable and caring people here! :)

Hugs,

Tina and Jasper

[lulusmom]

Hi Naomi and welcome to you and Fraser (and Oscar)

I'm happy that you will be getting copies of all tests done by your vet to diagnose Fraser and will be looking forward to seeing the results. I will tell you that 60mg is a pretty hefty dose for Fraser and I am concerned that it has been two weeks since initiating treatment and your vet has not yet done an acth stimulation test to check cortisol levels. Cortisol drops like a rock in the first few days and it will continue to drift downwards, even in the first 30 days and beyond. A dog can get sick rather quickly if it drops too low so the first order of business is to get Frazer in for an acth stim test asap. Your vet needs to check electrolytes as well.

I am including the url to treatment and monitoring charts and I would suggest that you share this with your vet so he understands and follows proper protocol. You will need to give Fraser his dose with a small meal and have him to your vet's office within 3 or 4 hours so that the test can be completed within 6 hours after dosing.

I'm usually long winded but have an early vet appointment this morning so you are going to be spared the usual novel I post. :D I am sure that others will be by to welcome you as well as share their opinions and experience with trilostane.

Glynda

[addy]

I just have a moment but wanted to welcome you and Fraser. It sounds like you have done some homework:D:D:D

Please heed Glynda's advice for an ACTH test asap.

Just remember, when in doubt, dont give the pill:)

I am so glad you found us.

[labblab]

Hello and welcome to you and Fraser!

I'm pleased to tell you that we do have other Australian members, and even one from Perth ;). So hopefully they'll soon be stopping by to greet you, too.

In the meantime, as you already know, it will help us a great deal once you are able to retrieve the actual numerical results for Fraser's testing. But the symptoms you describe are indeed consistent with Cushing's, and I'm very glad that he seems to be responding well to the trilostane so far.

Given the expense of the drug, though, I must admit that I am really puzzled as to why your vet would not have placed this initial prescription in the form of a smaller dose. You can always give multiple capsules if need be in order to increase a dose, but there are explicit warnings against opening/splitting a larger capsule in the event the dose needs to be decreased. It is not at all uncommon for the initial dose to require tweaking upwards or downwards, and often not in large increments. So here you are, stuck with 100 capsules of 60 mg. strength -- much too large to be able to make any incremental dosing changes. If it does turn out that Frasier's dose needs to be altered, I'm hoping that you may have a local compounding pharmacy (at least that's what we call them here in the U.S.) that would be willing to professionally repackage your capsules into a smaller form. Of course, there will be a charge, but at least the drug won't go to waste. And in the future, given the fact that you have to buy in increments of 100, I'd always opt for a smaller dosage strength so that dosing can be manipulated more easily. Fraser may end up needing a dosing change at any point in his treatment.

I'm doubly concerned about this because, given Fraser's weight, 60 mg. is at the very highest end of Dechra's published initial dosing range -- it is not even in the middle (2.2-6.7 mg/kg). So the chances are very good that he may need a dosage decrease. In answer to your question about crashing, cortisol levels frequently continue to drift downward during the first 30 days of treatment. Having said that, episodes of low cortisol can happen at any time during treatment. So if there are any "work" mornings for you when Fraser appears to be at all unwell at breakfastime, I'd personally hold off on giving any trilo that morning and wait to resume the med until you can assess how he's doing upon your return home.

Here's a link to the U.S. Product Insert for brandname Vetoryl. It contains a lot of helpful info about treatment and monitoring:

http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

Once again, welcome, and continued good luck with Fraser's treatment! By harping on the dosage strength, I don't mean to be negative about things. It's great that you are seeing these improvements. But I just wanted to offer some tips that may help with future dosing.

Marianne

[SoggyDoggy]

Back again.

Thanks everyone for the welcomes! I'm going to take Fraser in for a ACTH stim on Thursday when I have the day off again. This will be slightly longer than the usual 14 days, but not by much.

Marianne, I agree that it was a high start dose, I even questioned the Vet on it, but I guess if worst comes to worse, my Dad is a pharmacist (albeit retired very inconveniently) but he has the contacts that I may be able to get the caps I have adjusted for a fee. I don't know but the potential is there at least. Apparently there isn't a huge difference in price with the lower strengths I was told, but at least my vets are in contact with our only Vet teaching hospital/University in Perth - Murdoch. That's where they got the dosing advice from so at least they have made the calls. I'm also lucky in that I have been going to the same vet practice for a looooong time, and they all know me really well. I have even spoken to all of them (all 4-weirdly all girls too) in the course of diagnosis and treatment, so if I do have an emergency I at least have access and it wont matter who is on roster that day. There is also a relatively new 24/7 emergency practice fairly local to me that has excellent reviews and my vet has ties to them as well. I think I'm covered as far as access to vets go.

Thanks for the links too, I have read all of the Dechra info and looked at the helpful resources page on here too over the last week. I have spent a LOT of time trying to find out what we're in for.

Just with regards to a potential crash, I'm wondering if it happens in a matter of hours, or if it develops over a day or so. I guess my fear is that Fraser is fine in the morning, I give him a pill and go to work, but get home that evening to find him sick. At the moment I am so paranoid I am taking time off work to watch him (and Oscar with his cruciate recovery), I wake up at night to check on him, waking him up too. As I said before, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. It has all been positive so far, call me a pessimist but when's it going to go wrong? Has anyone ever had smooth sailing with this disease?:(

Anyway, thanks for the tips. I'm signing off now, time for bed. Night!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Naomi and welcome to you and Fraser! :)

You are off to a great start educating yourself - THE most important factor in Cushing's. ;)

Has anyone ever had smooth sailing? Oh, yes....those are the ones we rarely hear from! :p My Squirt has had a fairly smooth journey - I first heard the word, Cushing's, the end of 2007...and she will be 15 this Feb, still here, still going strong for an old broad! So, hold on to the belief that "the other shoe" has been lost. ;)

There are some really good things about Trilostane. One, it doesn't stay in the body very long at all - only for 2-12 hours - so if there is a crisis, the drug is leaving the body quickly. Also, it is very easy to stop and restart this drug without losing ground like we Lysodren users can. So, if you see that Fraser has some signs that something may be up, like loose stools, lower appetite, nausea, you can withhold the next dose with no problem. Always listen to your gut when it comes to him - you know Fraser better than anyone.

The first 30 days are the most nerve-wracking as that is the period when the cortisol is dropping, and it drops fairly rapidly with Trilo. So you want to keep watching him like a hawk...something you seem to have a solid grasp of. :)

Keep reading, keep asking questions...and welcome to the family!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, so just a quick question re Stim test results.

We had our test done yesterday and I am trying to get my head around the results. My question, is, what is the difference between pre and post results. I understand pre is before the cortisyn and post after obviously, but everything I read only talks about reference ranges for the post.

Does this mean the pre has little value? Should the numbers be very close or far apart? Our results aren't listed in micrograms like most, but in nanomoles instead (just to make things even more confusing) but I want to speak to my vet about them again in the morning before I go any further.

So basically the pre number is 28.1 and post 26.2nmol/L. Reference ranges give 2 options, Feldman and Nelson (2004) 27-60 nmol/L but Dechra 40-150 nmol/L.

While the vet told me his numbers are good, I don't read this as positive, but then I have no idea what the pre number represents or how they are supposed to relate to each other.

Fraser isn't sick, he's still active and eating well - in fact apart from some scabby flaky skin, he is remarkably well! (actually I've just noticed he has stopped snoring too-but strange how reassuring that sound is. Now i have to check :))Still, I question the result, and I initially questioned the does too, to be told this is good. (Trilo 60mg for 9.9kg dog). Although the result is close to the Feldman Nelson range, my feeling is if those ranges date to 2004 they are long out of date and I would prefer to follow the Dechra advice.

I plan not to give him his dose tomorrow until I have spoken to the vets and get them to confer with each other (I want more than one opinion at this point), but the question still stands then, What does the pre number have to do with it? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

If anyone could answer that for me I would appreciate it before I ring them in the morning. Thanks.

Naomi.

PS I'v now got copies of all of his diagnostic bloods too, and they indicate pituitary tumour.

[StarDeb55]

I haven't posted to you before, but I can answer some of your questions about Fraser's results. First of all, to convert to ug/dl, divide by 27.59, so for Fraser:

Pre: 1.0 ug/dl
Post: 0.9 ug/dl

These results are extremely low for your initial stim after starting vetoryl. As several other members have mentioned, Fraser is on a very high dose for such a small dog. Frankly, if he were my boy, I would be on the phone to the vet right now, or at least the ER clinic. These numbers may indicate that Fraser is, now, at high risk of an Addisonian crisis. When this ACTH was done, were Fraser's electrolytes checked? If not, the electrolyte check needs to be done ASAP in light of these critically low numbers. Do you have prednisone available in case Fraser starts feeling bad? If not, this is something else to get in touch with a vet. Signs of an Addisonian crisis are nausea, vomiting, lethargy, & just general unwellness. Normally, since vetoryl clears the system within about 8-12 hours, simply witholding the next dose will solve the problem. IMO, if Fraser were my boy, I would be witholding the meds until you can speak directly to a vet.

I'm sorry to scare you, but please watch your boy very carefully.

Debbie

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks Debbie,

I am concerned about the levels which is why I plan to ring the vet first thing in the morning, but right now it is 1.45am here and Fraser is fast asleep (though responsive cause I just woke him up). His last dose was 8am this morning (so 18 hours? ago) and he has been fine today. Still chasing his toys, wanting food etc. he is not displaying any signs of a crash as such so I'm not to worried for the next few hours at least. I have plenty of pred on hand should I need it, but I think we are good for the rest of the night.

Thanks for your conversion, I have no idea how the maths of it works, I just knew I wasn't too thrilled with the nmol/L numbers. Will definitely be on the phone come 8am, meanwhile, I think I probably need to get some sleep to be able to cope with the conversation!

His electrolytes were not checked at the time, I will discuss this with them in a few hours too.

Thanks again, but if anyone else can explain the correlation between pre and post I would still appreciate it.

Naomi.

[Squirt's Mom]

The normal ranges for an ACTH differ for each drug so there is no one normal range that applies to all ACTHs. For a Trilo pup, the normal post range is 1.45 - 5.1ug/dl and the post can go as high as 9.1ug/dl IF all signs are well controlled. A post of 0.9ug/dl is, as Debbie said, dangerously low. I am so glad he isn't showing any signs of a crisis but keep a close eye on him all the same and let us know what the vet has to say.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Think of the pre as where the resting cortisol is at and the post as the response cortisol is at.

Good luck in the morning. Hope you are getting some rest.
Oh yes, and even the first 30 days the cortisol levels can continue to drop which is why we get freaky around here when that post number gets too low, especially from the beginning of treatment.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

So I rang the vet this morning, they are getting back to me after ringing the lab so I am still waiting to hear - chances are it could be monday now. Doubt the lab is open on a saturday. Meanwhile, I didn't give him his dose this morning, and wont until I have some straight answers now.

Anyway, a revision to my former question. In your experiences, is the post ACTH result usually higher or lower than the pre? I have been scouring the web but am finding little information about this so anything people can advise me on, or links to read is most appreciated. This was our first STIM test, and apart from giving me numbers I didn't like, I know very little about the rest of it!

Thanks again, I did say originally I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. I guess it did :(

Naomi.

[Harley PoMMom]

On an ACTH stim test the post is usually higher that the pre (resting) number.

Things like stress, or a lab error can make the pre number higher than the post number.

In an ACTH stim test the stimulating agent injected makes the adrenal glands dump cortisol, and the post number reflects how much cortisol is stored (reserved) in the adrenal glands.

When treating a cushingoid dog with Vetoryl/Trilostane one wants the pre and post between 1.45 ug/dl - 5.4 ug/dl, and can be as high as 9.1 ug/dl as long as clinical symptoms are controlled.

Hope this helps.

[molly muffin]

One of the best ways I have found to find out about the ACTH results is to check through the various threads on the forum here. You'll find a large variety. One of our members, has a doxie, 13 lbs, on 10mg vetroyl, the before numbers were His ACTH before Trilostane was Pre 9.5 ug/dl, post 43.7 ug/dl.
After 12 days of Trilostane 10 mg, he weighs 13 pounds, Pre 6.7 ug/dl, post 13.2 ug/dl. Continuing at this dosage for now to see how it continues to drop or not. If not, then could go to twice a day dosing at 10/10mg, or up the dosage of once a day. The next stim results are Pre 8.6 ug/dl - Post 14.5 ug/dl
These are CoCo's results from this thread:
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showpost.php?p=81219&postcount=147

I don't think JoAnne would mind me posting her results to help you out. I think that normally one does expect to see the post number higher than the first number, unless of course there is a problem.
It might not be a shoe dropping more like a warning. Stay off the vetroyl for a bit and then see where the cortisol goes. As long as he doesn't show any symptoms of going lower, then it could rebound a bit and then you'd be looking at a lower dosage and we'd be back to the point of discussing compounding those pills to get a better dosage for him.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks for those replies, I guess it makes sense that his pre test was actually a little higher than the post now, only slightly, but at that end of the scale there isn't a lot of room for movement. Knowing how stressed he gets at the vet, full body convulsion shakes etc means he would have had a big nervous reaction when I walked out and left him there. In fact they even asked me to leave his brother with him too as he was so nervous last time! Funny boy. Even so, the numbers are still way too low.

Anyway, waiting to hear back from Vet still, guessing it will be next monday, but I've not given him his dose this morning and he actually looks better for it.

Thanks for the help, will keep you posted.

[kaibosmom]

Hi and welcome! I'm pretty new here myself so I don't have much in the way of advice but I did want to say hi and good luck! I hope you get answers from the vet soon! The waiting is so hard!

[BestBuddy]

Hi,

I would not be giving any more trilo until you get some answers from the vets.

As for the ACTH test, we all have cortisol (or should have) running around in our bodies and the pre test is a measure of this baseline. Cortisol is the hormone that is released to help our bodies cope with stress, excitement and fear (fight or flight). The ACTH chemical is injected to make the adrenals give up the stored cortisol at once to measure how much is being produced and this is the post number.

A stressed dog will not have as much stored cortisol as it will have already been released into the body but either way I believe Fraser 's numbers are too low.

Jenny

[SoggyDoggy]

An Update - and a positive one!

The vet rang me back on Saturday but as soon as she began speaking I knew she had no idea what my issue was - namely that she had her numbers wrong and that I no longer blindly trust her on this issue. She began saying we could reduce the dose if I wanted, I interrupted and asked for a referral to an Internal Medicine Specialist. We had the appointment this morning!

So, the absolute amazingly wonderful lady that was the specialist did a thorough exam over Fraser, found enlarged lymph nodes as well - but said they could be from his skin problems and she would like to aspirate them. At the same time she wanted to check his electrolytes too. Electrolytes came back normal, and the lymph nodes were just fat deposits so there was no issue there either! Yay!!!!! :D:D:D

She agreed that he had been "over-regulated" and the dosage was too high and that he should stay off trilostane for another week. This is all after my regular vet said he was normal and everything was good! Hah!

Anyway, long story short, his dosage is dropping from 60mg once a day to 10mg twice a day - a massive drop! And much more in line with my initial thoughts (considering he only weighs 9.9kg)

So I just wanted to say a huge thank you to the wonderful folks here who gave me the feedback and wisdom of experience to get copies of blood tests (I wouldn't have known there was an issue if I didn't get those copies) and to provide the second opinions that prompted me to question my vet and seek out a specialist. (lucky for me the specialist is only 10 minutes from home!)

I will be sticking around and will give more updates when we restart at the lower dose next week. Thanks again though, you guys rock! :cool::cool:

[frijole]

Hurray! We love these types of updates!!!! Good for you for following through and having the courage to debate the vet. It's hard I know but all you gotta do is look into Fraser's loving eyes and you know you did the right thing! Wonderful news.

Kim

[molly muffin]

Wooot Wooot! Yay, that is the best news! So glad you got into the specialist so quickly And that it's close to home. That's like a bonus specialist. LOL

Do keep us informed. As Kim has said so many times, we do get attached. :)

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

I've just had a read back through my previous posts and see I didn't actually explain what my GP Vet had actually done. When Fraser had the first stim test, his results came in as posted above, but the vet told me he was right in the middle of the range and it was all good. When I got a copy of the paperwork myself, I found out that the range she had been reading was not actually even cortisol! She was reading the range for T4 while talking about cortisol. AAARRRRGGGHHHHH :mad: And as you know, he was dangerously low.

But the scary thing is, two different vets in the same practice told me they were both happy with it! Needless to say, when I worked out what was happening I was furious and will not EVER be speaking to them about my babies again! Thankfully there are two other vets in the practice, one is the owner, and I still trust them, so I will speak to them only when I go in next time. I contemplated changing, but they hold 13 years of records for 2 dogs, I like that they have a full history there.

Anyway, after all of that, we had the specialist appointment that I also mentioned above, and then just last week went back to the specialist for another ACTH stim test. This was again at the 20 day mark, so the comparison of results is astounding! This was the first test since the debacle with the GP - He stayed off meds for just over a week after the last one (until he started to drink more again) and then went from 60mg once a day to 10mg twice a day. A huge difference. (I've written all of this previously, but just to refresh memories)


HOWEVER....
A few minutes ago, the specialist rang me back and I just got the best news I've had for weeks. I've just got his results back and my first thought was to tell you folks, you'll understand my elation!:):D:)

Pre 25n/mol Post 52n/mol

(Feldman Nelson recommend 27-60n/mol, Dechra 40-150n/mol.)

Even the specialist said he was "textbook perfect" In addition to this, he is obviously feeling really well too. Full of energy, smiling, water and food intake normal, not snoring (which I think is great) so just an all round YAY!

I'm just so happy and relieved!

(Meanwhile, I haven't been posting, but I still lurk on the forum daily.)

[Trish]

Jeepers, shows the benefit of keeping and going over the results yourself! How scary. But good on you :D

I can feel your happiness for your baby and by crikey we need some good news on this forum today! So pleased to hear your baby is feeling much better :D

Trish xx

[molly muffin]

OMG! I am so glad that you took a look at those test results yourself and knew exactly what you were seeing.
This is the most wonderful news that Frasier is in a good place and feeling good to now. We are certainly in need of some good news this week. I couldn't be happier for you and Frasier.

BIG HUGS,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Boriss McCall]

yay Fraser!! Good news is always nice to hear. Keep up the good work!

[addy]

way to go, really good job.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[SoggyDoggy]

A question for you all.

I have noticed over the last couple of months, that frequently (as in mostly) when Fraser sleeps the end of his tongue pokes out of his mouth :p. It's just the tip, but often when I touch it to get him to pull it back in again, it is dry and rough (until he licks it up again anyway). I doesn't seem to bother him at all, it's just kind of funny - I think it bothers me more actually 'cause I don't know why.

Has anyone else ever noticed something like this or is he just a weirdo? ;)

Naomi.

[milosmom]

naomi i don't think there should be a concern here.my milo always had his tongue sticking out a bit when he was relaxed and sleeping

[SoggyDoggy]

Lol, thats good to know, thanks. It was just that it is a new thing for him, coinciding with the diagnosis and treatment period. I haven't really been worried as such, more laughing at him really coz he looks so funny when it happens. Oh well, that will just join his list of quirks.

Other quirks include:
-Objects to hiccups - will go outside instead,
-Doesn't like the sound of buzzers on game shows (reacts as though it's thunder or goes and sits in the garage where he can't hear it),
-doesn't like the sound of a computer keyboard (I ended up getting a new laptop with a different keyboard so he wouldn't leave the room all the time)
- Hates' flies - thinks they are bee's so again leaves the room (no I don't get them inside often, but with the dog door constantly open so the boys can come in and out at will, some will alway get in)

These are of course in addition to the usual fear of thunder and lightening.

What can I say........ he has "issues" :rolleyes: but he's my baby. :D:D

[molly muffin]

Yep, we love them quirks and all. I have to say, Frasier has some "interesting" quirks. :eek:
I think that kind of makes him cute and special. (I mean that in a good way!) ;)
I love it when they have quirks, the quirkier the more adorable. :p:p

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

P.S. How many times can one legitimately use quirk in a reply. I might have gone overboard!

[SoggyDoggy]

As if the poor boy didn't have enough to deal with, both he and his brother now have Canine Flu! :( (not kennel cough) Poor thing is hacking away with a congested cough. Been to vet (the good one), she said mild at this stage, unless he develops an infection just give it a week to pass, lots of rest and keep them isolated (as it is contagious).

Just wondering of anyone has "been there done that" and got any advice or suggestions to make things a little easier on them? it sounds horrible, poor things!

Naomi.

[Boriss McCall]

Oh no Naomi,
that is terrible.. So, the flu is going around for the dogs too? :(

I guess I won't be going to the dog park anytime soon. How scary.. I am so sorry you are dealing with this & your poor pups. I wish I had some advice to give you.

[molly muffin]

Seems like the flu is everywhere now, even in the dogs. :( That is hard on a pup with any other problems too. :(

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, definitely need some advice if anyone has dealt with Canine flu before! Fraser is quite congested and has a blocked nose, tries to blow the air out forcefully to clear it and as a result seems to have to work harder to breathe. He doesn't appear to be running a fever, but i'm concerned that he could develop a secondary infection.

Because of the contagious nature, I can't just pick him up and walk into an emergency vet room without having them clear the room first, so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips to help him get past this? He finished a course of antibiotics a couple of days ago for the pyoderma we have been fighting for months (hoping that has cleared up now, have to wait till all of the skin heals from the peeling though) but he caught this flu just as they finished.

Does the cushings make him more susceptible to an infection of any kind, or will it have no bearing? I realised I don't even know if cushings causes an immune deficiency.

So please, any advice, tips, helpful hints? :confused::confused::confused:

[Harley PoMMom]

Unfortunately dogs with Cushing's are prone to infections because their immune system is weakened from the excess cortisol. I think, if I were in your shoes, I would call the vet and ask for an appointment, letting them know that you are concerned with Fraser's flu.

[molly muffin]

Oh dear, I do hope Frasier kicks this thing soon and you can get back on track. I agree though that it might take a visit to the vet, but definitely a phone call. The congestion thing is very scary. Molly had kennel cough once after being at a doggy day care stay over, and it was quite nerve wrecking till she was past that.

Let us know how he is doing. We tend to be worry warts around here.

Sharlene and molly muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Took both boys back to the vet again, metacam for both to take down some of the swelling and irritation in the throat (due to coughing) and anti-biotics for Fraser. Luckily I got to see the boss lady, she fitted me in for an emergency appointment. I said I was concerned about the possibility of a secondary infection, she had a feeling it had already started (hence the anti-b's) as his chest was crackly too.

Anyway, two days on from that now, Oscar is doing a heap better, managed to growl/bark at passersby from the front window without coughing, Fraser still very congested and has some trouble with breathing during the night, but is better during the day. I guess night time is when all the sludge in his sinuses congeals and blocks his nose up again. :o

Meanwhile they are both driving me nuts wanting to go for a walk, but as it is contagious they are under virtual house arrest. A car ride is the best they are going to get for another few days at least!

Still looking forward to a pay period without vet bills............ Maybe one day :rolleyes:

(oh lovely, he just did a huge big snort/sniff in his sleep :eek:)

[molly muffin]

Glad to hear that Frasier and Oscar are both doing better. Smart getting them on antibiotics if it sounds like a possible infection could already be occurring! So, now just hoping for a speedy recovery and less snorting.
:)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

A pay period without a vet visit, only in our dreams;););)

I wonder if you could run a steamy shower and have them sit in the bathroom for the congestion, can we do that with dogs like kids? When I adopted Koko he had the worse case of kennel cough, green mucus stuck all over his nose and face, poor baby, so I can totally relate to your concern for your babies and the congestion. I sure hope the antibiotics help.

Doggie flu, I feel so badly for your two pups. I just think of how I feel when I have the flu:(:(:(

Hope they start getting better real soon.

[mcdavis]

I have no experience of doggie flu but I hope the meds will help and they're feeling much better very soon.
I do however have experience of a dog with cabin fever and it isn't fun ;)

[SoggyDoggy]

Well we seem to be on the upside of the doggy snot episode, both boys nearly over it. Fraser has an occasional hack to clear his throat but nose sounds clear again. Still got another 2 days of antibiotics just in case, but even if there is nothing there, at least it will help to ensure his pyoderma is cleared up. Oscar still has a few bouts of coughing, usually as he is trying to growl/bark at someone walking past on the sidewalk. He likes to let people know they are on HIS property.

Anyway, some new questions for you. Is there any reaction between trilo and metacam? I've just seen some passing comments on threads here and there which has prompted me to ask. Ive noticed over the past few days that Fraser's coat has changed a bit, gone dry and a little coarse in some places, so I'm wondering if that could be the cause. He has now been off metacam for 48hours, and I think it is softening up again. Will have to keep an eye on the fur on his back as that seems to be an early indication that something is just not right.

Then again, this could all be in my imagination as he was in desperate need of a bath and has just had it. Now he's soft and fluffy and looks beautiful again. But if anyone has any comments, experiences or observations to make, please do.

PS. Just changed the avatar to a post bath photo. Doesn't he look gorgeous? Smells beautiful too now :)

[addy]

now thats a darling:D:D:D cute avatar for sure, he does smell good;)

I dont use metacam so cant comment, just wanted to tell you how adorable Fraser looks.

[molly muffin]

Yep, love the new avatar photo. Soft and fluffy. I haven't used metacam either, so can't speak to that but I'm sure that others can and will

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[frijole]

I'm only going to half way answer your question. My cush dog Haley was given metacam and before I gave it to her I posted about it here (this was many years ago) and they told me NOT to give it to her. I don't think it had anything to do with the lysodren she was taking but rather its effect on the liver or kidney. I recall being told my vet should have known better. I remembered this only because I recently threw away a bunch of unused meds and it included the metacam.
We ended up giving her adequan shots instead. Kim

[SoggyDoggy]

Hmmmnnn, that only adds to my suspicions, thanks Kim. I have noticed that the fur on Fraser's back has definitely softened up again in the few days he has been off it, and I've also noticed an increase in his "pot" this week. The hard thing to know is how much of it is due to lack of exercise this week (being in home quarantine) or has it affected his liver again? We have an appt to see the GP boss on monday to discuss all of the stuff ups her juniors made, so I am wondering if I should maybe ask her to run his bloods in house again and just get some updated liver readings? We haven't had those done since the diagnosis phase.

I guess I'm just wondering if there is any source I can look at that discusses drug interactions with trilo? It would be really nice to have a list of things that can and can't be given. As for adequan, I have to say I don't even know what it is, it's not something I have heard of at any stage over here, but then you guys get a lot of different stuff to us, or it is called something else. Maybe it's time I did some more research.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Naomi,

It is best to avoid all NSAIDs with a cush pup because they are very hard on the liver and this organ is already under assault from the hormones in the body of the cush dog. So we do our best to find something other than NSAIDs to help our babies if at all possible.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks Leslie, That confirms what I thought was going on. As I mentoioned above, there were a few things I notice this week that suggested his liver was being stressed a bit more than usual, and today at the park (yay we are out of flu quarantine) my sister told me he smelled "chemical" (she has a bizarrely sensitive nose). She told me this the week he was diagnosed and started treatment too, so she seems pretty spot on there! That in combination with yuckier than usual stools made me think liver again.

He has been off the metacam for a few days now - he only got 4 but it seems to have been enough - but has two more doses of anti-b's left. Poor little sprite, he has been through so much already, I'm just glad his cushings seems to be on the right track!

So I guess, do you know of a list anywhere that mentions drug interactions both good and bad for trilostane? Information seems pretty slim on the ground and it would be good to be armed with a list of yes and no's.

thanks again!

[Squirt's Mom]

Remember, ABs can do a number on the digestive tract as well. ;)

[SoggyDoggy]

yeah I know, he's just been through 2 different lots over 3 weeks. Had a really bad case of pyoderma for about 3-4 months, trying to get on top of it. Managed it for 10 years without breakouts (hasn't had it like this since he was 2), but the cushings pushed it over the top. As soon as I get it cleared up, we will be able to manage and prevent further breakouts again. Meanwhile, if only he would eat his yogurt! :rolleyes:

[addy]

Could he have a probiotic? If he doesn't want his yogurt? I'm so glad you are out of quarantine!!!! Yes for dog parks and boy your sister has some nose:D:D:D:D:D:D I'm impressed:D:D

[SoggyDoggy]

probably on the probiotic, if we have to do anti-b's ever again, I will look into it again. He's just a fussy bug on what he will and won't eat, so it will prob need to be another pill. Anyway, at this point he only has another 1/2 tab tomorrow morning and then he's finished and we'll see how his skin goes.

As for the nose, yep it's pretty impressive, but not so helpful when bath time nears. :p

[SoggyDoggy]

So we just had a visit to the GP vet (to see the boss vet - who is lovely) to discuss the stuff ups the other in the practice made. She was horrified and so apologetic. Spent nearly an hour talking to her, giving the whole story, from asking for literature that was never presented, to questioning dosage to be told "it's fine" etc. Anyway, had a really good outcome, she understands why I will never see that particular vet EVER again, (to the point of going elsewhere if no other staff member is available) and even refunded me on the 80 unused capsules! Very pleased with this outcome, guess that's why she's the boss (other than the fact she owns the practice).

But the other thing we discussed was Fraser's super sensitivity (which apparently Scotty dogs are prone too) and the possibility of putting him on a liver supplement to help him on. Apparently it is very common for Scotty's to have high liver readings even when otherwise healthy (although he's a mix, apparently he got this trait), so as I know many of you use liver supplements, I'm wondering what you can recommend? Of course the difficulty will be whether the same supplements are available here.

So....... suggestions?

[Trish]

Thats a good outcome Naomi, she sounds very responsible and hopefully discussed this incident further with the other dodgy vet! Good for you, I have found it pays to stand your ground and discuss it rationally :D

I will be interested to read the replies to your liver supplement question too, as that is also a question I will be asking my vet.

Glad to hear the sniffles have cleared up and your all out and about again, such a cute pic in your avatar :)

Trish and Flynn xx

[addy]

Naomi, Something I found over the weekend does say Scotty's are prone to higher ALP elevations.


ALP activity can increase for a variety of reasons in dogs. It is highly sensitive but not very specific, so it can be very confusing, not to mention frustrating, when it's elevated in a dog that appears otherwise healthy. Here are some of the common causes of ALP elevation to consider.1

• Age (immature dogs)
• Drugs—glucocorticoids (endogenous and exogenous), anticonvulsants
• Breed-related elevations—Scottish terriers
• Endocrine disease—hyperadrenocorticism, diabetes mellitus, hypothyroidism
• Hepatic nodular hyperplasia
• Hepatic neoplasia—primary or metastatic
• GI disease

[Tina]

Hi Naomi,

I have been meaning to tell you that your new avatar of Fraser is sooo cute!! My Jasper is an all black Mini Schnauzer, and Fraser's face looks quite a bit like him, just different ears. :)

As far as a liver supplement, I see quite a few pups take Denamarin. I just on Friday asked my vet about starting Jasper on it since he will likely be on steroids for the rest of his life and they affect the liver so much. She said it probably wouldn't be a bad idea, so we are going to talk more about it more once we figure out what is going on with his kidneys now. I have seen a lot of folks use milk thistle and SamE, which are both ingredients in the Denamarin. I found some pretty good info when I googled it. I don't know if it is available there, you would need to check that out. Maybe if it isn't, something equivalent would be. Hope that helps a bit.

Tina and Jasper

[SoggyDoggy]

Naomi, Something I found over the weekend does say Scotty's are prone to higher ALP elevations.

Thanks Addy, I saw that in your post on your thread actually, so when my vet mentioned it today I was like "yep, knew that!" :D Unfortunately, even being prone to it, his were still WAAAAAAY up. When he was tested in August 2012, his ALKP was 2750 (23-212) and ALT 309 (10-100) but when we repeated 4 weeks later, ALT was 636 and ALKP couldn't be measured, it was off the top of the scale (same ranges). That was the time I made the LDDS test appointment.

Actually, in August his PLT was up too, 806 (175-500), but what's PLT? nothings ever been said on that one, other than that, everything else pretty comfortable in the normal range (though Urea at the higher end of normal, and Creatinine at the lower end, but still normal). The only 2 bloods repeated prior to LDDS was ALKP and ALT. since then, we've run electrolytes which were good and 2 stims - the second of which was just excellent! :D:D:D:D:D What a good boy he is!

But I know his liver has taken a beating lately with 3 weeks of Anti-B's and some nsaids. So that's why the search for something to help him out now. Thanks Tina for the heads up on the Denamarin, I will research it tomorrow to see if we get it over here. Right now it's bed time. 12.40 am. I'm gone!

Night!:)

[Harley PoMMom]

I believe PLT is an abbreviation for platelets, which can be elevated when a dog has Cushing's.

Milk thistle is commonly used for liver support. Here's a link from our Resource Thread with info about Milk thistle: Milk Thistle/Sam-e and more (for liver "support") ( http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192)

[Boriss McCall]

Love the new avatar. That is such a cute picture.
Hope things are going better today.

[lulusmom]

Naomi, Something I found over the weekend does say Scotty's are prone to higher ALP elevations.

FYI, Maltese are also prone to higher ALKP and Fraser is a Maltese/Scotty mix. I think Fraser's breeding has a negligible impact on the severe ALKP elevation recently posted by Naomi.

[molly muffin]

Here in Canada my vet gave me Heppato Support supplements for molly's liver. It's what they use instead of Denamarin, which my vet had never heard of, so I guess that particular one isn't available for us here in Ca.

The new avatar pic is very cute.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

FYI, Maltese are also prone to higher ALKP and Fraser is a Maltese/Scotty mix. I think Fraser's breeding has a negligible impact on the severe ALKP elevation recently posted by Naomi.

What can I say? He never does things without doing then properly :o

Anyway, Denamarin isnt available, but Denosyl seems to be the comparative choice. At $80 for 30 tabs though :eek:, I'm going to keep looking further for now. (even his Trilo is only $99 for 100) Will check into Heppato support and straight up Milk thistle, which is significantly cheaper.

Thanks for the help guys, really appreciated! :D

[SoggyDoggy]

I'm still researching liver support things, how on earth does one find out an appropriate dose for Milk Thistle though? Every brand is a different strength, some have different qualities, and as they are all human grade, how on earth do you work out an appropriate dose for a 9.9kg Scotty mix dog?

But other than that, now I have another question. This requires a little background story though.

My Sister has a 2 year old Aussie Shepherd, Mika, who stayed with us for 10 days about 2-3 weeks ago. This happened to coincide with a time that Fraser really got his pep back and was looking pretty spunky. So when we would all go for a run at the park, Mika being a working dog runs for a solid hour after the ball - but apparently when she gets hot she must put off some kind of a scent that Fraser finds particularly appealing and he goes all frisky! Not kidding, he's like a horny old man! Constantly tries to bury his nose in her back (not her backside thank God - he is partial to giving people French Kisses), his ears go back and high, tail wagging, like he's just found a bitch in heat! :eek: They are both sterilised so what gives?

Last week when he got the flu, he was really down for a few days, but now that he's over it and we are back in circulation again, we went for a walk with Mika again today. He did it again! Which just proves it is not a one off, it's now happened over a dozen times. All his life, he will take an instant liking to a dog every now and then and stick his nose where it really doesn't belong, to the point of following them an entire oval length on occasion, but this is just another level. I am wondering, is this trilostane related, or does Mika just really smell that beautiful to him? No other dog does it to her (there were 7 in the pack today) just my horny little toad. :p (Keep in mind, he is 13 and was sterilised 12 years ago!)

What gives? 2 questions for you today. :D:D

[molly muffin]

Sounds like Frasier has himself a girlfriend and he really likes the way she smells. ;) It might just a be a smell that he really likes and wants to be around. Some dogs are more smell oriented than sight oriented and (I know Llahso's are smell oriented over sight), not sure about Frasiers mix though.

I have never read anything about Trilostane having that side effect though. So, new one. I can't wait to see what the others think of. :)

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

I'm still researching liver support things, how on earth does one find out an appropriate dose for Milk Thistle though? Every brand is a different strength, some have different qualities, and as they are all human grade, how on earth do you work out an appropriate dose for a 9.9kg Scotty mix dog?




Dosage and administration

The standard dosage of milk thistle seed extract is based on a silymarin content of around 80 percent; most supplements contain anywhere from 50-500 milligrams (175 mg is typical). Silymarin is found mostly in milk thistle seeds, but in low amounts. Therefore a milk thistle seed extract will contain the richest source of this active component, as well as other natural compounds found in the seeds.

Because of its excellent safety record and lack of adverse drug interactions, when I’m treating a very sick animal with advanced liver disease, I do not hesitate to use the full human dose–up to 200 mg per 10 pounds of body weight–of milk thistle extract daily. For most purposes, however, one-third to one-half of that dose is more than adequate. (Animals with liver disease typically will not eat, but it’s a simple matter to open up a capsule, mix the appropriate amount of powdered herb with a little blenderized food or baby food, and feed by syringe.) Too high a dose can cause an upset tummy, gas, or mild diarrhea; these are easily resolved by giving less.

Human research studies have shown that it is more effective to administer this herb in three or four small portions over the day than in one large daily dose. When it is not possible to split the daily dose and administer the fractional portions three or four times a day, give it at least twice a day.
The capsule form is easy to find – any health food store, and even most pharmacies and grocers, will have them in stock. The herb also comes in a liquid extract, but most human products contain a fair bit of alcohol. If you prefer a liquid preparation, get one specifically intended for use in animals.

NOTE: Consumer Lab® released a report in December 2009 regarding test results from 10 commercial milk thistle preparations. Only Jarrow Formulas® Milk Thistle contained the industry standard 70% silymarin; all the rest fell short. They suggest using a product containing milk thistle “seed extract” as opposed to “seed powder” or “whole herb” to get the most silymarin.



http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/milk-thistle-a-wonder-herb/

So, my calculation for Fraser's weight of about 22 lbs would be 200mg split and given 3-4 times a day.

[Squirt's Mom]

I am giving Squirt Milk Thistle Seed powder from Mountain Rose Herbs - it is a bulk dry herb. She has had trouble taking the capsules and the alcohol based tincture of milk thistle so I am trying the dry herb. She weighs a little over 13lbs. and gets 1/8 tsp/day of the powder at the moment with the intent to increase to 1/4 tsp/day if she can tolerate it. So far, so good! The powder is $3.75 for 4 ozs from MRH so it will last a while! ;)

[mcdavis]

Just saw your question on the amount of milk thistle it's OK to give - in case it helps I used to give Hamish one Hepato Support pill (which I believe contained 90mg of milk thistle) plus one S-Adenosyl 100 (which I believe contained 10mg of milk thistle). This combination seemed to help to lower his ALT (from the 380 range to the 200 range in 4 months) but had no impact on his ALKP.

One vet thought the SAMe shouldn't be a long term medication whilst the other thought it was!! Also if you do give a SAMe you should try to give it at least 2 hours after food / 1 hour before (despite the vet tech telling me to give with food!).

I bought the Hepato Support it in Canada, however it would have been around $60 for 90 pills if I had bought it in the US, and the S-Adenosyl 100 used to be around $40 for 60 pills when I bought it in the US.

I asked the vet to check the max. milk thistle dose and she said that 100mg was OK for his weight (approx. 14lbs / 7.5kgs). I wouldn't give any of the above without checking the dosage etc. with a vet.

p.s. love the new pic of Fraser

[addy]

FYI, Maltese are also prone to higher ALKP and Fraser is a Maltese/Scotty mix. I think Fraser's breeding has a negligible impact on the severe ALKP elevation recently posted by Naomi.


Well, gosh, Naomi, I sure hope you did not read that into my post to you. That sure was never my intention, to say Fraser's high liver values were because he was a Scotty. It was more of an aside comment meaning they can be prone to them.:o:o:o:o

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, I'm ringing the vet for a quick check first, then I'm heading to the shop to go hunt for Jarrow! Apparently it is available here, but whether I can get it is another thing. If not I'll get it online. For the next week while I'm still on holidays, I'll split the dose over 3 x a day with 1.5 150mg caps (making 225mg approx), but then when I head back to work next week, it's only going to be 2x a day - simply not home and it's a 45 minute round trip to and from work - but lunch break is only 25 minutes. Not possible. So then he'll end up on 150mg daily in two doses. A bit lower than advised, but seeing how susceptible he is to everything at the moment, I don't want to make him sick with an upset tummy too. :(

I've also read that it is good to give it a break, to give 5 days out of every 7, and then 5 weeks of every 6. Anybody else come across that one at all? And how long term is it? Do I consider this to be part of his feeding ritual from now on, or just see how his bloods go in a few months? Again, I've read conflicting advice.

One last question. If Oscar happens to get some too, it won't affect him negatively will it? I was reading some live support thing - but I cant remember what it was - that said it should not be given to dogs unnecessarily as it could potentially harm a healthy liver. Don't want that!

Once again, a HUGE thankyou to you guys for your help and advice. So unbelievably helpful!

PS Addy: No fear :D, I didn't think anything of the sort that his liver readings were this high because he was a Scotty mix, they are this high cause his liver has been bombarded with everything going on. No the Vet just mentioned it in passing, but I already understood that in a normal healthy dog, a Scotty could tend to have slightly higher readings than normal, not off the charts readings like his. Interesting about the maltese though, didn't know that one. :p

[Harley PoMMom]

I've also read that it is good to give it a break, to give 5 days out of every 7, and then 5 weeks of every 6. Anybody else come across that one at all? And how long term is it? Do I consider this to be part of his feeding ritual from now on, or just see how his bloods go in a few months? Again, I've read conflicting advice.


Yes, I have read where one does want to give a break in between.




One last question. If Oscar happens to get some too, it won't affect him negatively will it? I was reading some live support thing - but I cant remember what it was - that said it should not be given to dogs unnecessarily as it could potentially harm a healthy liver. Don't want that!


I believe as long as Oscar does not get the milk thistle on a regular basis he should be fine.

[SoggyDoggy]

Oh wow, this is doing my head in! I went to 5 different pharmacies or health food shops today to get some milk thistle for Frazy, no ones ever heard of Jarrow, but looking further, all the ones I saw today are at least 420mg caps, which would mean trying to give 1/4 or less of a cap :confused: per dose. The other issue is, they also have a stack of other stuff mixed in, and I can't find anything that's plain milk thistle without artichoke or dandelion root etc.

My options are- give up and go for the denosyl at $70+ per month, (which at the moment is tempting!) import the jarrow range from the states and pay 3-4 times more for postage to get it here within 2-3 weeks ( which will end up costing over $50 anyway) or keep looking and hope I eventually find something :confused::confused:.

Have a call in to the vet, but neither of the two I will deal with are on until Friday or Monday (and Monday is Australia Day public holiday) so wont get any answers from them till at least then, but then I only left a message confirming i want him to take it and to make sure they think 200mg daily is correct. (Not second guessing you guys, just want the vet to be in the loop).

Also looked into "hepato support" not available here so would have to go through ingredient list and compare. My biggest problem is I don't now what all the various herbs and vitamins do, and I don't want to give him anything that will impact something else. There is very little information around about these herbs and canine efficacy!

Suggestions? :o:confused::confused::o

[Harley PoMMom]

What about buying it on-line? I buy many canine supplements from Monica Segal's website, Monica is located in Canada, here is her link for the milk thistle: http://www.monicasegal.com/Milk_Thistle_Powder.html

[BestBuddy]

Hi,

I managed to find plain milk thistle at the local woolworths and coles. It can also be brought online, I used chemistwarehouse.com.au but most of the other sites should have something. Not sure how good this one is but it is available at the supermarkets here at around $12 a bottle for 90 capsules.

http://www.herron.com.au/Products/General-Health/Liver-Detox-Milk-Thistle-6000

I also read and used the following as a guide.

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/thistle.htm

Good luck

Jen

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks for those tips, Looked at the Monica Segal, but again its a 2-4 week wait and postage costs twice as much as the supplement, while I'm not quibbling on price, it just seems stupid. Thanks for the heads up on the Herron one though Jen, going to Coles to pick some up shortly. At least with that I don't even have to split capsules, just one 2x a day! Something to be said finally for cheap supermarket brands!

On a side note though, I did find a place called VitaminGrocer (online) who had a great postal service, where to get it in 3-10 days was only about $12. So if the Herron one doesn't have desired results, I may try the Jarrow one through them.

Thanks again for the advice!

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, one last check before I'll shut up about this :D

Once again, couldn't find the herron brand, nothing available in capsules where ever I went, so I gave up and bought a practitioner strength silymarin tablet. It was an australian product by MediHerb. Below is some information I found regarding it online from a US research place, http://www.salamresearch.com/html/milk_thistle_product.html


Milk Thistle Extracts

Silymarin is typically extracted with 95 percent ethyl alcohol. The extraction process may also include filtration (with water), evaporation and may also include pressing and heat drying.

There is often poor documentation of the source, ingredients and extraction process of commercial silymarin products. A few companies state that they use purified water and ethanol extraction without harmful solvents. Some companies carefully examine sources of raw milk thistle and use chromatography to optimize quality and to separate the phytochemicals in the extract into individual components. Some product is manufactured according to good manufacturing practice (GMP) standards.

Various amounts of raw herb are used in extracts. One Australian company uses a 70:1 extract. They begin with 14.7 grams of milk thistle herb and create a tablet of 210 mg. Other companies use 30:1 or 40:1 extracts.

German research initially led to a standardized milk thistle extract of 70 percent silymarin. Current standardized silymarin extracts contains 70 to 80 percent silymarin. Standardized or quantified extracts of milk thistle are often expressed as “standardized to 80 percent silymarin” or “calculated as silybin.”
Jarrow is 30:1, the Medi Herb one I bought is the 70:1. What this means? I have no idea!

Other preparations

Because silymarin is poorly soluble in water, teas are considered to have a less than 10 percent bioavailability. Oral tinctures, or alcohol-extracted preparations, are considered suboptimal, and effective oral therapy is assumed to require concentrated products. It has been reported that the absorption of silymarin in enhanced by adding lecithin.



Milk Thistle Preparations and Doses

The most common oral formulation is capsules containing powdered seed extract. Other concentrated oral formulations include tablets and softgel capsules.

Dosages for milk thistle are based on silymarin content

Most milk thistle marketed in the United States is sold as a dietary supplement containing 200 milligrams of a concentrated extract standardized to 80 percent silymarin. Taking silybin is considered to be the optimal way of obtaining the benefits of silymarin, so one may want to consider an extract that contains 80 percent silybin.

Researchers have not yet identified the optimal dose of silymarin

The typical adult dosage for silymarin is 240 to 800 mg/day in two or three divided doses. It's noted that a supplement containing at least 240 mg per day of silymarin would be helpful for most people. Doses of 150 to 300 mg per day are considered sufficient to increase the liver's production of the protective antioxidant glutathione. Higher doses are needed for chronic liver disease: 140 to 210 mg of silymarin, three times daily in a standardized extract form (total 420 to 630 mg/day). Simultaneous dosing with a lecithin supplement has been recommended to increase absorption. For Siliphos, 240 mg, three times daily is recommended. Older patients require a higher dose due to age related decrease in absorption abilities.

Reviewing the doses that were used in milk thistle human research, the dose varied from 240 to 800 milligrams per day. A few studies used Siliphos at 240 mg.

So the article also provides a table at the bottom with selected brands analysed. The MeidHerb brand is listed, and broken down as a 210mg tablet, containing 168mg of silybin. (the others listed are as silmarin). So I'm back at trying to work out a correct dose. AGAIN! The articles read so far suggest 20% of a human dose (for his weight) and this bottle suggests 1 tab 2-3 times daily, as it is of high potency and high bioavailability.

From Lowchenaustralia.com
When shopping for milk thistle, I prefer a standardized (70 or 80% silybin) product. A typical adult human dose is 100 - 150 mg. of silybin, which is approximately 200 mg. dry herb three times daily, or the equivalent in a liquid. For pets, simply use their body weight as a percentage of the human dose. For example, a 30-pound dog would get 30% of a human dose and a 10-pound cat would get 10%. Most products purchased at health food stores have the recommended human dose on the label. Give it for 2-3 months. Medicinal herbs should not be used continuously for extended periods. I suggest 5 days on then 2 days off for 6 weeks. Skip 1 week and begin again. It could be used one week each month as a little extra protection in otherwise healthy pets.






Because of its excellent safety record and lack of adverse drug interactions, when I’m treating a very sick animal with advanced liver disease, I do not hesitate to use the full human dose–up to 200 mg per 10 pounds of body weight–of milk thistle extract daily. For most purposes, however, one-third to one-half of that dose is more than adequate. (Animals with liver disease typically will not eat, but it’s a simple matter to open up a capsule, mix the appropriate amount of powdered herb with a little blenderized food or baby food, and feed by syringe.) Too high a dose can cause an upset tummy, gas, or mild diarrhea; these are easily resolved by giving less.

Human research studies have shown that it is more effective to administer this herb in three or four small portions over the day than in one large daily dose. When it is not possible to split the daily dose and administer the fractional portions three or four times a day, give it at least twice a day.

So, my calculation for Fraser's weight of about 22 lbs would be 200mg split and given 3-4 times a day.

Now the maths begins. By using the above calculations, if I give 1/3 of the recommended dose of the Mediherb, per 10lbs of bodyweight, I would be giving 110 - 140mg of the concentrated Silybin per day. (the tabs are 210mg Milk Thistle/Silymarin, with 168mg Silybin. I'm using the 168 as the calculation figure.)

But if I go 20% (he weighs about 22lbs, 9.9kg), then I want about 70-100mg per day (both of these ranges 1/3 or 20% depend on the 2-3 tablets per day)

If I then split the tablets into 1/4's, I have 42mg silybin/quarter, so would be looking at 1/2 to 3/4 (84-126mg) per day.

Have I got this correct? Would I be safe giving Fraser 3/4 tablet for a week in 3 doses per day (1/4 per dose = 126mg total) then going to 1/2 per day in two doses (84mg total)? As of thursday next week I am back at work so 3x a day is not possible. Or would I simply be better off with 1/2 per day in two doses flat?

Sorry to be a pest on this, I just am really scared of putting his system through more when he is pretty happy at the moment. However his liver does need the help as it has been pretty battered.

Feedback welcome. I should also state that I have given him 1/4 tablet so far this morning with breakfast and morning trilo (about 3 hours ago).

[Trish]

Good lord Naomi, you are the research queen!! I am not even going to attempt your maths quiz as it brought back horrible memories of math class at school just reading it :eek::eek: but I am sure someone will be using those that can confirm your calculations!! I love your no stone unturned approach!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[addy]

You lost me at the second paragraph, I cant think with that side of my brain especially at 4am:D:D:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Im betting Lori or Leslie can figure it out for you. They will be awake soon;););)

[SoggyDoggy]

Lol, it's only because I've been on holidays for the last 5 weeks that I even have time to look at this! As of next week, spare time is going to shrink considerably! And as for the maths, well they say Music and Maths are closely related, and I am a Music teacher, so there we go! :D:D:D

Anyway, just want confirmation from someone to look at my numbers if they can get their head around the marathon of quotes. I did speak to the vet briefly on the phone today and she said it sounded right, but also agreed without looking at things on paper, it's pretty hard with all of the different brands, strengths and doses.

So anyone who is NOT trying to decipher that wall of text in the unearthly hours of the morning (Addy, try sleeping!), feedback still welcome. He's since had a second 1/4 tablet with dinner, haven't gone 3 today just to see how he reacts, will try the three doses tomorrow all going well.

PS: Some of the quoted text was just for information sake as well, it's not ALL 100% specific to this question.

[Trish]

Hi Naomi

I hope you figured out how much to give, it will be interesting to see if the numbers improve on it!

Hope you found that cooling pad for the babies, I must confess when it was hot and I was not here I used to leave the air con on for the two cats, but unfortunately they are not with us this summer and Flynny goes to my parents during the day so I can turn it off and save a bit of power.

How are the little guys doing? I bet you are not looking forward to going back to work after the holidays. I have worked all through the holidays apart from the stats so can't wait until April and my trip to Melbourne and Sydney, shame it is not to WA or I would have popped in for a cuppa! I lived in Sydney for a few years back in the 90's so like to visit there when I go over to Australia for our yearly conference to catch up with my friends :D It is going to be hard to leave Flynn for 10 days so hope he behaves himself while I am away :)

Trish xxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey Trish,

I guess no one else wanted to tackle my wall of quotes, don't blame them :D

Anyway, I'm giving him 1/4 tablet 2x a day of the MediHerb brand I bought, so will se how that goes. Will run liver tests sometime around next ACTH I think, see how his numbers go then. I have noticed some change in him since he started, but then it could be exhaustion from too much activity over the weekend. :):)

Shame your not coming to Perth when you come across, would have loved to have you in for a cuppa! But I do know what you mean about hating to leave them. I have to go to Singapore in July for 8 days (taking 50 kids with me :eek:) and am leaving boys with Mum. She is very capable, but I still worry, will she notice the little things, remember his pills etc. Considering she has dealt with a diabetic dog and an epileptic one in the past (epileptic one for over 10 years too) I am worrying about nothing, but he's still my baby boy.

As for the cooling mat, not decided yet. Am debating to go with water or gel based. I know the water ones get really heavy, but I like the ones that supposedly "recharge" themselves with weight. Just don't know which will be cooler. I leave the overhead fans on for them, but the lounge does heat up in the afternoon. They do also have the entry tiles to stretch out on which they both do frequently, but I still want to have something soft for then to lie on that is also cool. Old bones, you know? :D Maybe I should work out the timer on the air con to come on when it gets hotter :rolleyes::rolleyes: Feb March temps failry often get to the low-mid 40's so will probably do that for them then.

Anyway, must head off, got Dad coming for dinner in an hour, need to start organising food. Have a great week!

[molly muffin]

That wall of quotes scared the tar out of me! I suddenly felt like I didn't know what percentage of what should be given when.
50 kids to Singapore! Ohh, you're going to have a busy trip! LOL
Wonder woman you are.
I hate that panic feeling that comes on when I have to leave Molly while away. The vet does have our cell numbers though and we check constantly to make sure that we don't miss anything.
The only time she told me she almost called was when the test came back and she said Molly had cushings. We were in Prince Edward Island at the time and she said she decided not to tell us till we got home. Good thing, or I wouldn't have had time to find this board and demand more tests. Whew!

Have a good day Naomi!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

I saw the word "maths" and my mind went blank! :eek::o;)


Jarrow is 30:1, the Medi Herb one I bought is the 70:1. What this means? I have no idea!

However, this I can answer for you. When herbs are standardized to a certain percentage what they are telling you is that in the total composition of the capsule/tablet/dropperful/etc contains that percentage of the active ingredient of the herb. So Jarrow at 30:1 means that each capsule/tablet/dropperful/etc has 30% of the MT and the Medi Herb at 70:1 contains 70%. My Squirt takes 40mg flax lignans capsules which are standardized to 20%. This means there are only 8mg of the SDG (active ingredient of lignans) in each capsule.

40 mg capsule = 20% lignans
20% is 1/5 of 100% (or 100 divided by 20 = 5)
40 mg divided by 5 = 8 mg lignans
Each 40 mg capsule contains 8 mg lignans

Hope that helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

PS. Bulk herbs are so much easier for old math challenged brains like mine! :p

[Trish]

Thank goodness for Leslie deciphering all that :)

I know what you mean about noting the little things, Mum and Dad who are great and love him to bits do not notice the things I do... still they know their way to the vets and they have had to rush him in twice, once with his orignal collapse and the other when he had his shoulder ripped open by a pitbull while Dad was walking him up the beach :eek: so they do get him there if they really need to!!

Wow Singapore with 50 kids, now that sounds a real challenge! Fun though too :)

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

and the other when he had his shoulder ripped open by a pitbull while Dad was walking him up the beach :eek: so they do get him there if they really need to!!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

OMG OMG OMG! :eek::eek::eek:

Poor Flynny! that's horrible! I know they say blame the owners not the dogs, but I've never warmed up to pit bulls, they scare the bejesus out of me. but I'm glad he's ok now at least, and on a path for the better apparently :D

I must admit, Singapore with 50 kids is not as bad as it sounds, there are 5 other staff too, so it's really only 1:8 kind of thing; and it's good fun. We only take good kids and they know and follow the rules. We went 2 years ago too, had a blast! I think the staff spent more time on the roller coasters at Universal World than the kids did! (Actually in 07, myself and 2 others took 30 kids to NZ too:D). The hard part this time will be worrying about my boys back home :o. Guess that's why apple invented Face Time :D:D:D:D:D:D

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, next question. Anyone ever used a coolmat? if so, was it water or gel based? Very interested in people's observations with this, though I do understand most of you are currently wishing for a heating pad instead :D

Brand recommends welcome but may not be of any use with geography in the way.

Thanks!

[addy]

I remembered Mary Beth bought one for Alivia so searched her thread- the one she bought had water not gel. She also purchased some cooling bandanas for her pups.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56771&highlight=cooling#post56771

Im so paranoid I would be worried about the gel just in case the pup chewed the mat through somehow. I could see my Koko doing that:o:o
But I am super paranoid about stuff like that becuase Koko is always in to SOMETHING:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[BestBuddy]

I purchased a coolmat but it has not been used! I originally got it for Buddy but he wouldn't use it so I then tried it on Phoebe who also would have nothing to do with it. Both these pups are now gone and I have tried with my current Luke and Joey but neither of them are interested. I have tried it covered and uncovered but no go.

It seems like it stays cool but it will only help Fraser if he will actually use it.

Jen

[molly muffin]

We have a new forum host! :) Congratulations Naomi!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Our heartfelt appreciation and congrats Naomi!!!

Welcome aboard to you and Trish!!!

[Trish]

Oh thats a good point about chewing it up, I don't that would be too good if the dogs ate gel :eek::eek::eek:

[SoggyDoggy]

Very probably not, but in his case it's not an issue. The only damage he has ever done in his entire life is to bury socks in the backyard :D That's his form of revenge for leaving him.:rolleyes: He isn't a chewer at all, but he does like lying on things. I have no less that 5 pet beds on my lounge room floor, another 2 out in the backyard and one in my bedroom (which is more of a step to get on my bed). That is between 2 dogs! And at any one time, there is always at least one in use, usually 2 unless they are lying on the tiles because they are cooler. Of course, if I drop an article of clothing on the ground, they refer to lie on that given the chance.

So my thoughts are, a cool mat, and if they don't lie on it by themselves, then I'll drop a t-shirt on it. Problem solved! :D:D

My reservations with the gel mats are that it could leak (not that they will chew it), yet the water mats I hear are very heavy and can smell after a while. So I guess it comes down to which will be more effective. I think I might have to bite the bullet this weekend and just go buy one - whichever I can find. It's going to be 39 (101F) on saturday and it's a good time to try it.

Meanwhile if anyone has any other advice - please share!

[Harley PoMMom]

Sorry I have no experience with the cool mats. :( My boy, Bear, really minds the heat and sometimes I'll take a spray bottle with water and spritz his belly and the top of his head. He really enjoys that as it does seem to cool him down a bit.

[molly muffin]

Oh Yikes that is HOT!

Dogs just seem to love anything that has our smell on it. T-shirts to the rescue.
Mine really like towels, after you've taken a shower.

Try stay in a cool place with temps that warm. Buckets of ice! ohh, margaritas. See where the mind goes. LOL

hugs
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

Hi Naomi,

I don't have any experience with cooling mats either, but see them in some of the pet dogalogs that I get. I will be interested to see what you end up getting. That kind of heat is horrible, and very dangerous for our pups. We had a lot of over 100 degree weather last summer. It was brutal. They said it was our hottest summer on record. Now it is bitter cold, with wind chill, so brutal on the other extreme.

I told Trish that you guys are killing me with all your stories about tripe. I decided to wait till the weekend to start looking at that, it sounds scary, lol. :eek:

Congratulations on becoming a Forum Host Naomi. Now you better take a day to read Jasper's thread so you can get up to speed on my complicated little boy. Lord knows we can use all the help and support we can get!! :D

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[Trish]

:DI laughed when I read about all the beds Naomi! Flynn has quite a selection too, his proper bed is right by my bed (he won't sleep with me, likes his own space) and next to that is a long red doggy soft pad thingamy, because sometimes he hops out of bed for a stretch out and I did not like him lying on the hard floor which is carpeted but thought bit uncomfortable for his old bones too! He likes his pad so much I got one for the back seat of car. Mum bought him one for her house so he can sit by her chair, plus he has a nice cane bed in their lounge room and another in the conservatory so he can laze in the sun! Plus on the couch here he has his own spot with his own blanket on it :D:D Jeepers I often think how many beds does a wee dog need!! They gotta be comfy though eh!! :D:D Yay it's Saturday morning, I love lazing about at the end of the week

[SoggyDoggy]

Ahh Saturday's, thank heavens for that! 2 days back at work after holidays and I am already stuffed! Mind you, when I got home last night I thought the world had gone crazy with the number of posts that had come in! Took hours to read everything :D (As you know, I like to be thorough)

Well the boys had their haircuts yesterday. Fraser is now 2 shades lighter again. As a puppy he was jet black (hard to believe) now he's a real silverback! But the new fur that has grown in underneath his existing fur is a lighter shade again, and now that he's been cut, it shows through! He never did loose fur with the cushing's (I think we caught it before that started to happen) but he still regrew new stuff anyway :eek: His fur is 2x thicker now than it was - not the best result in this heat but still fine with me. Hi next haircut is only 7 weeks away so he will get through the heat fine, the fur is only 1/2 a centimetre long over his body. Added some photos of my boys to a Album if you haven't seen them.

Off to try and find a cool mat this morning somewhere, will be interesting to see what I can find. If nothing, might yet end up being ebay. Who knows? Will review the options at least.

[molly muffin]

It Is hard going back and getting into the routine isn't it.
I completely understand coming home to a whole lot of emails and trying to catch up on everything. Some days are very Busy on here. :)

Love the pictures of the guys. What handsome ones they are. Love those soulful eyes.

Good luck on the mat hunt! We'll want to hear all about it!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, so ?I've bought a gel style cool mat, there was actually an extra bonus one in the box so I have 2! It came from a local dog rescue place so I feel good about that too. Spent over an hour talking to the lady that runs it, I think between some of you guys and here, I have probably changed my mind about one day (after my boys have moved on) adopting a rescue. I've always been wary, but I think I may go that path, and even before that adoption time. might try fostering. Of course this is a while (hopefully years) in the future as my two would not tolerate interlopers. :rolleyes:

Anyway, will see how the mats go and report on them at a later date. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, Naomi,

I love fostering these babies! You get to meet so many neat babies and learn so much from each one of them. It brings unbelievable joy to to know you are preparing them for a whole new wonderful life, to watch them learn to trust, to be part of a family, to become healthier and stronger and happier. Then they go to their forever homes and a part of you goes with them. But in exchange, a part of them remains with you always. I still talk to nearly all of my foster's forever families, getting photos and hearing stories about those babies. It's like being an aunt or grandma! :D Fostering is a very rewarding and fulfilling endeavor for me and I hope you decide to give it a try when you can.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SoggyDoggy]

Auntie I am, Grandma - Hold Your Horses! Haven't even hit 40 yet! Wow, Only just wrapped my head around the fact that I am now older than some of the parents of kids I teach - that was a scary enough thought!

Talking to this lady today though was really interesting. Just went to buy the cool mat and ended up staying for over an hour talking. She doesn't have a shelter as such, but runs a network of foster homes that take in rescued and abandoned dogs. From there they go straight to their forever homes. Some of the stories she was telling me was just awful. I don't understand how people can neglect animals like that, my two are so spoiled rotten (as are most of the kids here I would think) but that makes me love them all the more! They literally are my kids! Actually, my boss gave me carer's leave for them last year when I had to take time off too - they are starting to acknowledge that for some people, the four footed fury's areas important to us as the two legged nappy buts! Bout time I say! Still the potential to foster is a long way off for me. My spoilt brats don't necessarily always play well with others, and while I am working full time, it wouldn't be fair to subject them OR a foster to that.

Anyway, Fraser lay on his cool mat for a little while earlier, but as I have the air con on at an ambient 24 in my bedroom, he is quite comfortably stretched out on my bed instead at the moment. It may take time for them to realise what the mats are actually for, but when they do, I think they will be a hit. Here's hoping anyway.

[Trish]

Yay for Fraser, giving the mat a go... good boy!

I am not sure I would be able to give any fosters back! Such good work these people do, kudo's to them :) But I am sure Grandma Naomi would do a fabulous job of caring for them :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Trish]

Hi Naomi

Hope work has not been too horrendous with the kids back today, full on I bet! Was Fraser nice and cool when you got home?? For some reason Flynn never gets on my bed, EXCEPT if I go out and leave him home alone... when I come home he is often curled up on my bed but hops right off when I appear. I bet he thinks with me out the picture he is the king of our domain so takes control of the bed :) Funny things

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

Well I woke up this morning and Fraser had stretched out right across the cool mat I put on the bed last night. He's obviously worked it out already, cause after we had a quick cuddle he went straight back to it. :D I don't know if it's just because he likes lying on paper and books (particularly if I'm trying to do some work) or because I lay on it for a bit earlier on, but he sussed it out!

Then when I got home from work today, not sure where he was before he appeared at the window, but Oscar sat up right where the other one was lying on the lounge room floor (amid all the dog beds) so I think he was lying on it then too! Very hard to tell if they were cool or not as when I get home all hell breaks loose! Screeching barking, running around, jumping on and off the couch in excitement. by the time that's gone on for two minutes, they are both panting hard. Even in the dead of winter. But I am hopeful they used them at least! Hey, at least Fraser stayed the night on the bed rather than lying on the cool tiles, so that's a win in my book at least!

As for first day back at school, it wasn't too bad, but I'm glad that it's over. Was a long one for sure!

[SoggyDoggy]

How's this for a sweetie? One of my year 12 students today, first day back at school, one of the first things he said to me was "Miss, how are your dogs?" What a treasure! :D I took a lot of time off during the last term last year, with Oscar's cruciate repair surgery and after care, then extended my leave during the early days of Fraser's Trilo doses. (what a way to use up long service leave) I was so impressed with the question. Always have liked that particular student, now I know why. :D

[molly muffin]

Awwww, that is so sweet! They know these things are important and that was a really nice first thing to think of and say to you.
Puts a smile in the day!
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[addy]

Now that's an "A' student if I ever heard one:D:D:D:D

Not sure though how you grade we use to grade a being best f being you flunk:):):):)

I have to tell you guys, I am totally in love with your vocabulary. I love that you say lounge and jumpers, long service leave, yup I'm loving it:D:D:D:D:D

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

That was a kind and thoughtful student. So nice to have a few a them to make your return rewarding.

I worked with criminal background students - that is who assaulted me and caused the RSD/CRPS. School treated me like I was the criminal. Trampled by the WC system may never see and compensation for this occurrrance taking my life / functioning away.

Nice hearing some good hearted events with children. Happy the mat is working for Frazer.

Sharon

[SoggyDoggy]

Now that's an "A' student if I ever heard one:D:D:D:D

Not sure though how you grade we use to grade a being best f being you flunk:):):):)

I have to tell you guys, I am totally in love with your vocabulary. I love that you say lounge and jumpers, long service leave, yup I'm loving it:D:D:D:D:D

Yep, A is best, but we don't use F, we use E. why? who knows, I think the powers that be look at F as being to negative, so we have to stop one letter short of that, you know, we must live in that world of polical correctness and all. It means the same though :cool::cool:

As for language, now I am curious. Jumper / sweater I get, lounge (though I tend to call it the family room more often) what is the US version, and long service leave? what's your equivalent? for us we work 10 years (for government service) and then qualify for an extended leave period of 10-11 weeks at full pay. That's why it's called that I think. You have to work a long time in the same service to get the leave. :D. So what do you guys call it then?

Here's some other slang terms for you, do you know these ones? Sanga (pronounced sang as in sing, with a "er" or "a" at the end)
Brolly,
Prang,
Woop woop, (not whoop, the oo is as in book)
and of course the great Australian abbreviation of McDonald's. "Maccas". apparently one Melbourne store even had signs done up and changed the store name to Maccas for Australia Day. we do love a good shortening of a name :D

And then my cousin was at a very important meeting in London one day (he's an English native) and they were talking about going to the races at Ascot and dressing up. There was an Aussie in the crowd who said something along the lines of when we in perth go to Ascot races (we have a suburb called Ascot and there is a race track there), most of the crowd is in T-shirt and thongs............ Apparently the crowd was aghast until he explained thongs are shoes, the equivalent term would be flip flops! of course, the accuracy (or lack of) of the apparel worn statement aside, I still would have loved to see the reaction :D:D:D

[Trish]

I understand you perfectly Naomi!! Only change I would make is thongs = jandals!!

We have long service leave too and call it just that! We get a week for every 5 years worked, so not as much as you.

Our friends here in the forum think it funny the way we write?! Imagine if we were actually speaking to them :D:D I remember when I was in Macca's in the US and they couldn't make out what I was ordering, so weird when we were both speaking english :eek::eek: Was very odd not being understood because of my accent haha, felt like I had some type of speech disability :eek:... fush and chups :)

Your student is a very sweet kid, great story!

We have a day off tomorrow, NZ day (Waitangi Day) as we call it, but noone would know what that meant on here! So looking forward to a sleep in... summer has fled, 13C here today brrrrrrrrrr, raining too... bring back summer!!

[addy]

You guys, I dont think you talk funny, I love that you use different words than we do for things, think of it more endearing not funny.:D:D:D:D:D

We call it vacation - long service leave.

Anyway hubby is from New York and when he came to the midwest, everyone asked him where he was from because of his accent:D:D:D

20 years later, they still think he has one. I cant even notice it anymore.;););););)

[SoggyDoggy]

vacation is different though I think. vacation is normal holidays, whereas Long service is like a bonus paid vacation for a period of service. eg We have to work for 10 yrs before getting it the first time, then 7 years to get it the second. This is on TOP of annual leave/vacation time.

Trish, love the Jandals! And I hear the Kiwi accent pretty often, a number of kids at school are Kiwis. That, South African and English. it's spot the Aussie accent some days! gotta love it!

[labblab]

Hey Trish, I noticed Waitangi Day on my calendar this week and was gonna ask you about it!! That's one of the many cool things about having members all around the world -- now when I see these international holidays I'm always thinking, "Now who on k9cushings will be celebrating today????? :) :) :) :)

So now I'm off to Google "your" holiday! :D

(And Naomi, thanks for letting me hijack your thread for a minute!)

Marianne

[addy]

We have holiday pay for holidays and vacation pay, vacation pay is you get a week off for years worked but each company decides what it will be and some people dont even get it. Or some companies will call it personal days and an employee uses it for whatever they need, sick time, holiday, vacation. We dont have extended service.

Oh, I get it, the big grin icon means laughing, I should have used the yellow smiley face but Marianne touches my point that I think it is really cool to talk to members in other countries and learn about them them.:):):):):):):)

Happy Tuesday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SoggyDoggy]

Yeah I agree, it is good. Sometimes when I'm writing a post, I have to change what I say, cause I think "will they get that?" :D:D It's funny. But I'll stick to my jumpers and family room, and just hope you get the gist. :D:D:D

I have a student from texas in one of my classes too. Sometimes she has this blank look on her face, and then you watch the light dawn as she finally gets what we are talking about. Too funny!

[Trish]

How confusing haha

I thought when you say vacation that meant like our normal holidays and when you say holiday it meant an actual day like Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Because today is Waitangi Day (like your independence day), it is a public holiday so we all get a paid day off. Unless you work in essential services, restaurants, stores etc then you get extra pay and another day off in lieu through the year sometime. I think there are 11 or so of them a year, like 2 days at Christmas, 2 New Year, 2 Easter, 1 today etc etc. PLUS we get 4 weeks a year annual leave paid. Which is what we would call holiday pay. Then we also get the long service leave on top of that depending on who you work for, as I work for the government we get one week for five years service. Then sick leave, mental health days (2), bereavement leave can also be applied for.

I do the same and modify, plus some things I did not know what the meaning was eg IMS! Never heard of that till I read here.

To Naomi: Gidday mate - We were in the wop-wops and left at sparrow fart to go bush. I grabbed some vegemite sarnies, snags and fizzy popped them in the chilly bin. Threw the jandals and togs on and put Flynn in his All Black jersey as it was about to piss down. He chundered so we had to pike out as it was hard yakka.. Chur bro!

[molly muffin]

Well, after my eyes uncrossed there Trish, I hope you had a lovely day hmmm, somewhere in the bush? and didn't get rained on too much (piss down). Good thing you put the food and pop in the cooler, or it might have gotten soaked. (whew is that the sort of translation????)

Wow, Naomi, not a clue about those phrases, woops, etc.
But I'm like the others. I love it that we have people from all over and that everyone has their own phrases and accents. My husband can't understand a word practically when we go down to the southern US. It's quite fun to watch him try to order in a restaurant sometimes. Tea pronounced Ta <long a> threw him for a loop once. On the other hand, he says all I have to do is be on a phone a minute with someone from the south and I'm right back into the accent. (I lived in both Tennessee and Texas and Southern Illinois at different times in my life) I just love to travel, so it's all good to me and what I don't know, I figure I'll learn eventually.
Not going near that vegemite though. No likee.
Okay, got a tons of email to catch up on here. Work was a long one today. So my brain might be a bit mushy.

And now we've all hijacked Naomi's thread!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Nearly wet myself reading that! Good use of slinging too much slang together! Must admit, took me a bit of thinking to get it, we really don't use that much in any one go. :D:D:D

Translation for everyone else.


To Naomi: Gidday mate Hello friend- We were in (the) wop-wops middle of nowhere but it's just woop woop - not "the" woop woop and left at sparrow fart really early in the morning / dawn to go bush visit the countryside. I grabbed some vegemite sarnies vegemite sandwiches, aka sangas also, snags sausagesand fizzy soft drink / pop popped them in the chilly bin portable cooler - though we would actually say esky. Threw the jandals a NZ term meaning flip flops and togs bathing suit - WA mostly says "bathers" on and put Flynn in his All Black jersey NZ Rugby Team shirt as it was about to piss down start pouring with rain. He chundered threw up / vommitted so we had to pike out leave as it was hard yakka work.. Chur bro! must admit, not sure on this one :o

Wow, looking at it like this, it really is another language isn't it? :D

[Squirt's Mom]

To Naomi: Gidday mate Hello friend- We were in (the) wop-wops middle of nowhere but it's just woop woop - not "the" woop woop and left at sparrow fart really early in the morning / dawn to go bush visit the countryside. I grabbed some vegemite sarnies vegemite sandwiches, aka sangas also, snags sausages and fizzy soft drink / pop popped them in the chilly bin portable cooler - though we would actually say esky. Threw the jandals a NZ term meaning flip flops and togs bathing suit - WA mostly says "bathers" on and put Flynn in his All Black jersey NZ Rugby Team shirt as it was about to piss down start pouring with rain. He chundered threw up / vommitted so we had to pike out leave as it was hard yakka work.. Chur bro! must admit, not sure on this one.

Nope, not at all what I was thinking and sooooo glad it isn't! :eek::p Didn't quite get things figured out but my interpretation involved sunglasses and a thong (undies type thing) only, crawling in the woods after a meal that didn't set too well while dragging another snack with you, with Flynn wearing a black T-shirt and peeing all over it. So between your digestive upsets, Flynn peeing on his clothes, and you getting scratched up crawling in the bush without clothes while dragging a sack of food behind, it was just too much to deal with so you came back home. Sounded like the perfectly horrid day! :p

[molly muffin]

ROFL! Thanks for the translation! I think I could read that over and over and still get a giggle out of it!! Love it, love it!
sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

I just choked on dinner reading all of that, I cant breathe from laughing so hard:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Leslie, you are crazy too, yikes I have to stop for a minute, I cant stand it I am laughing so hard at your interpretation

[Trish]

LMAO picturing Leslie's scenario, yes that does sound quite a horrid time so glad Naomi, put you in the picture. I will add a picture of Flynn in his All Black jersey to my album so you can all get a picture of what that looks like! And no, I won't add one of me in my thong, that would burn your eyes out hahahahaha :D:D:D But Naomi got the story right :):) Only difference is in NZ it is the wop wops, not the woop woops haha just a minor difference for the same meaning
xxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Leslie, I don't know whether to be amused or worried at your thoughts :D:D:D:D

Well so glad I could provide that translation then, would hate to think of anybody else picturing others running around in the woods in skimpy underwear. :D I thought this place was G rated! :D

You know Trish, between our threads lately, talking crazy language and possum dog food, we are going to give our cozy corner of the world a bad reputation - others might begin to think this is normal! Oh yeah, it is. Oh well, then let the crazy resume. :D:D:D:D

On another note though, Fraser chucked (I'm assuming you know what this means now) after breakfast this morning. He ate everything, finished the milk from my cereal, had his pills and then chucked all over my bedroom carpet. Yay :cool: I'm thinking maybe the milk was a bit much, won't be trying that again. I'm fairly certain his pill came up too, but short of sorting through the sick (not) I couldn't be certain. Didn't give him another one just in case, but he was fine immediately after. Proceeded to the polish off a handful of bikkies. I have a sneaking suspicion his cortisol is actually creeping up a bit. He's been pretty eager to get his dinner lately and finishing it all, but I'm not sure as he is eating a bit later than usual and getting smaller portions. Short of letting him guts himself till full, it's hard to tell at the moment. Think I'm going to put him in for another ACTH in a couple of weeks to make sure. Then again, Oscar has been eager and eating all of his too, so it's a tough call. The weather is still really warm and going to stay this way for another 1-2 months yet, so water intake is not guide, especially when he wasn't drinking significantly large amounts to start with anyway.

Oh well, considering his last ACTH was in the lower range anyway (1.8), he has room for movement. He's still very bright and happy, full of energy - especially after dinner when he wants me to play toy! - but he's just a little bit different than a couple of weeks ago. Not sure, vvery hard to put my finger on and I never know whether he is just tired form a good walk, bouncy from not enough exercise, hungry from smaller and later portions or just hungrier full stop. On the plus side though, his liver must be getting a bit better because his coat is starting to get a high shine again! He had a hair cut at the end of last week, he's now two shades lighter again! he had a much lighter undercoat grow in underneath, and when cut, that is now the dominant colour.

Whew they keep us on our feet don't they? Maybe I'm just paranoid - in fact I know I am, but he's my special baby. I know you guys understand that. :D

Signing off now, going to bed before midnight for the first time in 10 days - what a novelty!

[addy]

We totally understand Naomi and I hope Fraser feels better today. It is always hard to figure out and I catch myself checking Zoe against Koko too but he is half her age.:o I think both my pups are in winter doldrums and sleeping more. I have not been as active myself.;););)

We need Spring and you need winter:D:D:D:D

Have a good one!

[molly muffin]

Oh definitely could have been the milk like you thought. It can make the tummy feel upset.
Totally got the chucked and I wouldn't go messing around through it looking for the pill either.
It's true, Frasier does have some room to move up if that is what is happening without being out of the range you want him at.
I live in paranoia for molly just assume that it is the natural state with a furbaby that you have to always keep an eye on, or two eyes some days. LOL
Yay for sleep. Makes the next day so much better. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hi Naomi
How is your Saturday? Flynn has joined Fraser in the chucking department, hope it is not an indicator of anything more than dietary changes.

How is your boy going?

Beautiful day here, I am writing up a report for the meeting in Melbourne in April, quite detailed with a ton references so I have battled with them, then I downloaded a free trial of endnote so now I am battling with that :D:D:D Should keep me busy to midnight :confused: :confused:

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[addy]

Popping in to say hi and hope Fraser is feeling better:):)

[Tina]

Hi Naomi, checking in to see how Fraser is feeling. I hope his tummy is better. I cracked up over you and Trish's lingo. I had heard a few of the words, but mostly needed the translation that you were so kind to provide. We use the word chuck also for throwing up, but frequently the phrase is up-chuck! :D

I also enjoy learning about your part of the world, very interesting!

Again, hope Fraser is feeling better.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks everyone, Frasey seems to be fine now. After that first morning, he ate all his dinner that night and no trouble keeping anything down, then the next morning, I let the food go down for about 15 minutes before giving pills. 15 minutes later again I went back into the kitchen to find another chucky. Thing is, I didn't know if it was Fraser or Oscar, but I think it was Oz. Since then, there's been nothing, so that's good, but I also haven't given either of them any ham with pills either, been using low fat cheese again instead. Even wondering if the ham was turning and upset their guts. Who knows?

Anyway, Trish thanks for asking about the weekend! Yesterday morning we headed off to the river again for a swim. Our beaches here are stunningly beautiful with clean white sand, but the waves are just too rough for little boys so we go to the river where it is flat calm instead. Was busy wading through the water with Frazy swimming close on my heels when this fin popped up in front of us! :eek: Gave me the scare of my life - we have had a lot of shark attacks at beaches in recent months - but is was a dolphin! We've actually seen them quite a bit there, but when so close still gives you a moment of panick till you work it out.

Side story - I remember as a kid I was at the beach windsurfing with my Dad. I was always close to shore as I refused to go over the sea weed (I've seen what lives in that stuff!) but dad was quite a way out in the bay. Simultaneously it seemed, he fell off his board and a fin appeared just a few metres away from him. Dad didn't even get wet he was back on that board so fast, only for the dolphin to swim around him for a few laps. He had only seen the fin in his peripheral vision and thought it was a shark (there is an island of wild seals close by, so it's not out of the realm of possible for there to be sharks in the bay - though we've never seen one) To this day, I remember that sight whenever I see a dolphin - was very funny to watch.

Anyway, back on track, after our little trip to the river, we came back home for baths, sleeps etc then boys went to Nanna's for dinner and I went out with the girls for a fireworks show. Spent all of today hibernating in the air conditioning as it was so hot - 41 was the forecast (that's 105F for you others). Unfortunately it's going to be like that for the next 3 days too - and humid. :eek: Hot I can deal with, humid I hate! Thank whoever invented air-conditioning!

Frazy has also decided he likes his cool mats. Woke up again last night to find him spread out straight across the little one on my bed, he lines up so that his guts and chest are on top of it. Even now, his upper body and head are on it. Last night (before he got it) my leg landed on it too. Couldn't believe how cold it actually felt! Really good! So I can at least put in a vote in favour of the gel mats working!

Anyway, best be off now, other threads to check in on :D

[Trish]

Oh cool, thats an awesome story! Love dolphins, but yes it would give me a fright seeing a fin pop up in front me of while actually in the water! :eek::eek: Especially where you live, there do seem to have been quite a few shark deaths in the past year or so over there... Jaws scarred me for life and I don't go in past my knees :)

Glad the gel pads are a hit!

Trishxxx

[Trish]

HI Naomi
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the tip on the Cartrophen! My vets think it is a good idea too... I gave Flynn his first shot today. It is called Pentosan Vet here, so just a different name for the same thing. It was $66 for the four initial weekly shots, so I guess I save myself a bit of money giving them myself and it didn't seem to hurt him at all when I gave it. Also less stress for Flynny than attending the clinic.

This is what I love about our K9 family, the sharing of ideas and how we can learn so much from each other. So thanks again, I will be sure to keep you posted on how he does!

Hope you and the boys are having a great weekend :D

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

Sounds excellent Trish, you'll have to let me know how it goes. Price sounds similar too even. Just be aware that Flynn may be a bit tired and sore on the first 12 hours or so, it seems to wear them out a bit but he will be back to normal by the next day. I know when Oz gets it, he just likes to have a lazy day with a light walk in the arvo, but seems excellent the next day. will be interested to hear how Flynn does over time too.

Ok, so now here's a question for everybody else too. Is feet slipping out from underneath a sign of muscle weakness? I have tiles down throughout my house, and have noticed that over the last 2 or so months, Fraser's back feet are starting to slide away from him a bit when he stands still on the tiles. No issues on carpet or even when walking, just when still. Seeing it happen I went and bought rugs to cover large area of tiles, so now he always goes to the rugs. My concern is, in the last week, I've noticed he doesn't want to just stand anywhere, and will always lie down in preference, regardless of where. I'm wondering if this could be emerging muscle weakness, or if he's just tired from hot weather and not eating much. (both boys always go off their food when it gets this hot, drinking is normal and still very bright eyes, if anything I think cortisol is going high not low). I plan to put him in for an ACTH this week before I get his script refilled and will talk to IMS about it then, but nice to have some other opinions first.

Thanks.

[Trish]

HI Naomi

I have noticed he has been quiet and also downright wobbly last night. I hope it is just the settling in period like you said. I mentioned that to our vet before starting the drug but he said he had not noticed that problem.

I don't know about the slipping thing, but I have noticed in the past month that Flynny has stumbled a few times plus slipped a little sideways as you mentioned, mainly in doorways. I am putting it down to his arthritis acting up so it is one of the things I will be looking for after starting the Pentosan. My house is carpeted, but tiles in kitchen and bathroom and he has always hated going on them and walks quite gingerly over them. I think if he is a little worried he will slip then he tenses and of course that just sets him up for slipping easier which makes his paranoia worse!! Someone may have a more sensible answer than arthritis or paranoia I hope :D:D

[SoggyDoggy]

Yeah, I'm hoping the slipping and weakness is just that he hasn't been eating much lately due to the heat and he is just a bit more tired than usual (also due to the heat - it wipes you out!)

We all had dinner at my Mum's place last night and in the course of talking I mentioned he couldn't jump up onto the couch anymore, she told me he did it on thursday night at her place. So maybe he is just playing me :eek: He does that. I was also concerned that he was feeling a bit off yesterday as he slept the whole day, but then turned around and went for a huge walk in the afternoon followed by a session of playing chasey and tug with his toys for an hour at night too - squeaky toys are most annoying when trying to watch TV. :p

They both also did the normal bit of "no I don't want dinner tonight" and wouldn't eat - until I broke a little bit of my vinegar chicken (we had chinese) into their bowls, and they both proceeded to eat everything. :rolleyes::rolleyes: I think they are both just playing me now. They are sick of eating beef or lamb, trying to tell me to change it up. Little turds :cool: All good and lovely them liking chicken, but now I am paying the price! (where's my gas mask?) They love chicken, but it doesn't like either one of them :o

So this morning has dawned a bit cooler, and after a bit of prompting, (and a little bit of ham) they both ate breakfast and Fraser was even happy to eat the cheese surrounding his pills this morning. Not so yesterday, so it seems things are getting a little better. Guess the determining factor will be this week. Only two warm days and the others beautiful and relatively cool.

We're all off to a barbecue at a friends this arvo - now I'm thinking giving them chicken last night was a big mistake. Very embarrassing. Especially as Fraser particularly likes my friends and always wants to sit next to them. I think we might try and go for a walk first and "clear the pipes" so to speak. :o

Trish - hopping to your thread to reply re Flynn.

[addy]

Have fun at the barbeque:D:D:D:D

Last night I watched House Hunters International and they featured Mission Island, well, it was Mission something. How beautiful !! Looked like paradise found.

My friend's pup is starting to slip on her new hardwood floors, he is a non cush pup, a bichon mix about 10 years old. I had to put runners down for Zoe in the kitchen and the bathroom. She is okay on the slate tiles, but has trouble on ceramic tile and hardwood now. For her I know it is muscle wasting and arthritis.

hugs to you and the pups

[Squirt's Mom]

These seem pretty nice tho I've not used them - yet. ;) Seems like others here have in the past, tho.

http://www.puppylovepawpads.com/

[Trish]

Well there you go, something else I have never seen before! Those paw pads stick on by the look of them, I dunno about Fraser but Flynn would have them nibbled off quick smart haha :D:D I guess they must work for some dogs :)

Hope you had a nice barbie Naomi, I took your advice and did not do any project work at home yesterday! I just wish work was nice and quiet for a few days to get that type of stuff done there and not have to take it home... hope your day went well :D

[molly muffin]

Hi Naomi, hope you had a nice Barbeque and the boys didn't clear everyone out of the area. I've found over the years that liver does that to Molly. I limit the amount and the "when" that she can have liver treats now.;)

I notice that these little ones of ours teach us pretty well. Molly knows that if she doesn't move at night and just acts too tired and sleepy to make it upstairs, one of us will go pick her up and carry her up to her bed. (quite the little princess attitude) However, if she isn't laying around and is ready to go to bed herself, she'll race you up the stairs without a bit of a problem. Is your mom's couch a lower height than yours?

It sort of sounds like Frasier might feel a bit wobbly when standing and would rather just lay down doesn't it. I guess it coudl be the arthritis issue cropping up, but they do get muscle wastage in the rear legs too with cushings. I wonder though, Frasier is controlled so would he still be likely to get wastage with a controlled cortisol? I hope someone who has been dealing with this for awhile might know.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Het guys, yep the barbie was great. Was a friend I went to primary school with, we have been friends since age 9 so was great to catch up. Also, we sat outside as it was nice and cool for a change, and the strong breeze meant we weren't graced with other blessed "scents". :D

Anyway, so much for worrying about boys being off food. They proved me right tonight. 2 days of cooler weather and they have eaten everything in sight! Obviously feeling better, but at least I know they are ok.

I still think Fraser is playing me with jumping on the couch. Mums couch is a little lower than mine, but not by much, maybe an inch or two? He is still plenty keen on jumping out of the car when it suits him, but ever since Oz ruptured his cruciate, neither are allowed to jump in or out now, so I think he has carried that rule to all aspects. He stands next to the car and puts his paws up on the seat, then waits for me to boost his but in. Lazy bum.......:D

His feet do slip out on occasion, but with the number of rugs I have around it isn't a big problem. And considering he is 13 1/2 some rickety legs has to be expected. He still runs and walks pretty confidently, especially on carpet, grass or concrete, just the slippery tiles that get him. If it gets too bad I will get some rubber boots for him. My dad has some of them for one of his poodles, the dog actually asks for them to be put on. Like a different dog - very funny to watch. From ginger foot to turbo pup (if a 13 year old poodle can be turbo :p)

So in keeping with the spirit of the place at the moment, I have a plan in place :D

[SoggyDoggy]

It's confirmed! He's been playing me. :eek:

In the few days since last posted, he has jumped on and off mums couch twice in front of me, jumped up on my couch, jumped into the car (and out repeatedly) and RUN up a full flight of stairs! :eek: (though I will admit he ran out of steam 3/4 of the way up) Little twerp! He had me worried. :p There is definitely some weakening compared to 6 months ago, and I notice the age settling in the shape of his back legs (you know how the ankles start to get lower to the ground, the knees are lower etc), but as I said earlier, he is 13.5 so I can't expect him to be a young pup for too much longer :D

He's also been eating pretty well lately, though not much last night and still has to be prompted to eat breakfast (he's not used to it). In saying that though, I'm still suspicious of his cortisol levels, though sometimes I wonder if they are too low or too high, it's hard to be sure when he is so sensitive to weather and we have had some pretty extreme swings this week. Thursday was 41 (106F) yet Friday was 25 (77F) with an even lower overnight temp.

When it gets too hot, he doesn't eat, but then when it's cold he eats more, so go figure. I can't really work out what he is doing with this going on. Have decided to take him in for an ACTH this week to check. If his numbers come back similar to last time, then I will stop worrying for another few months, but it's been almost 2 months since his last one (Dec 28) so I figure he is due soon anyway. And I can speak to the IMS about his legs and skin too (some more flaky bits, just hoping it's not pyoderma flaring up again). Logically I should have done it before I renewed his prescription yesterday, but it means taking a day off work to get him there. Need to time it more carefully next time I guess. :p

[molly muffin]

Oh that Fraser. He is something, playing with his momma like that. I guess though if you can get a life up onto the couch or up the stairs then it's worth trying. Molly does that too. One chair with her blanket on, she just wants picked up to get onto, but there are times when I'll come into the house from outside and there she is in all her glory, upside down snoring away and no one put her there. Scamps!!
Makes sense to me, if it's too hot, who wants to eat. Too cold and just snarf it down. His ACTH will probably be fine, but as you said, once you start wondering about it, you just have to find out. Are they not open on Saturdays to get the ACTH done?
Have a good week Naomi. :)
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

Just stopping in to wish Fraser well... sounds like you have it figured out...silly Fraser ... He is lucky to ave such a great Mom. :D

Sharon, Norman and Millie

[Trish]

HI Naomi

How's that cheeky little monkey Fraser doing? Has he been in for his ACTH yet? HOping you have good numbers to report soon and he is eating and jumping like he should be and staying cool. Our weather has definitely cooled over the last couple of weeks, I saw a few fallen leaves on the weekend :eek::eek: but then autumn is but one day away here :mad: Hope all going good for you in WA.... btw we had a shark attack death here in NZ today, we only get one about every 20 years or so, looks like it was a great white too. Scary.

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Trish]

What's happening with the boys?? No news for a while, hope all going good for you all!

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey Trish, sorry didn't see your earlier post. All is good here, the issues that made me think Frasy's cortisol must have risen seem to have abated. He is running, jumping and playing fine now. I think it must have been the heat getting to him. We have had some cooler weather in the last two weeks and he seem back to tip top form again now. I had to postpone the planned ACTH as I had a big bill fortnight, but hoping to take him in tuesday after easter at this point. I know it hasn't gone too high as there are no concerning symptoms, and definitely not too low so it isn't urgent, more just a peace of mind for me. I don't even think there is cause for a dose review either so that's good.

The only question that really remains, is how come he becomes a horny toad around the girls now? :rolleyes: Last week, 3 seperate occasions, 3 different dogs, and he was a frisky pup! Even chased them around the park! (Especially one who was a Kelpie running at full speed - he just couldn't keep up! :D) But hey, as long as there is no new issue, if that's the worst symptom I see, I'll take it. At least he has a sparkle in his eyes :D:D

At the moment, both boys are out cold. Another big day swimming at the beach and they are stuffed. Off to bed now for hopefully 10-12 hours of peaceful sleep :p

[molly muffin]

Hi Naomi, glad Fraser is acting more himself and even has a twinkle in the eye for the ladies. Go Frasier. He'll have to be a bit of a speed demon to "make time" with that Kelpie though. hahahahaha
Sounds like a good weekend over at your place, beach and full tummies.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hahaha that is so funny, Fraser wants a girlfriend... and will chase them if he has too, should tell him to play hard to get and he might have more luck :D:D:D Must be feeling pretty good if he's got romance on his mind.

Weather has been a bit cooler here too, but stuff all rain to relieve our drought. Farmers are really doing it tough at the moment, it will be nice to see some green grass soon.

Hope the rest of the weekend went well :D

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

Hi Naomi...so Happy Fraser is acting more like himself.:D:D..silly boy!

Peace, Sharon and the pupps

[Skye]

hope all is still going great!!!!!
guess what i found for warmer weather walks!!! a leash that actually has a mist button!!!!! a light, silent, cool refreshing mist. excited to try it! although with my luck it will some how spring a horrid leak and i will go to mist right as someone passes by and they will think someone pottied on them. but none the less excited to try it out!

[Trish]

HI Naomi
How's the boys, haven't seen you in ages!! Out enjoying the last of summer, mind you does Perth even have a winter??

I was thinking of you earlier, re the chicken sensitivities. After you mentioned that and I thought similar happened with Flynn I stopped giving it to him. But the little fool stole some of the cat's yesterday around at Mum and Dads, up in middle of night with loose poop and then tonight a small puke, he was little slow on his walk but nothing to make me think he was sick. Gobbled down his dinner tonight so I am not going to worry about it, but no more chicken for him!! Shame as it is right up there with his his other favourite food.. Bacon that he is not allowed anymore either as want him low salt.

Your other helpful hint the pentosan has been a success, it is now two weeks since his last shot and he has not needed his Previcox in a month. So pleased to have him off that drug, must be better for his kidneys not to have to take that. The vet had said we need to reassess two weeks after last dose but he has gone on holiday, I wonder if he needs a shot now as well?? I will ring and check with one of the other vets. I still think he is a bit stiff, last weekend at beach they had very high three steps into the house and a couple of times I had to give him a boost to get up them and he does still walk stiffly at times but generally improved. So I do thank you very much for that advice. I am half heartedly looking at buying a new house, saw one I quite liked so went to the open home yesterday with a friend... it was immediately discounted even though the inside of house was lovely, there just too many steps down into the garden... first thing i thought of was Flynn will not like that, so crossed house of the list :D:D

Hope we see you soon for an update!
Trish :)

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey Trish, Lol about the house. I am much the same, I bought my current place with the boys in mind. The only criteria when looking was it had to have a decent yard. Then that was the first thing I renovated too. Had to make it nice for my babies :D

Anyway, just wanted to stop by and say Hi to everyone. Work has been stupid crazy and I haven't checked in for ages, but the news is still good here. Fraser is still spunky and happy, still chasing the girls (more bout this in a moment) and has even lost a little bit of weight! 0.5kg! He's now 9.4kg down from 9.9 where he's been for a few years.

Anyway, we went to the specialist today for our ACTH check up. Hope to have results tomorrow or monday. She asked me how he's been, I said all good, but I have a sneaking suspicion that his levels have crept up a bit. When asked why I thought so, it was one of those answers of "I don't really know, he's just a bit different.." So I'll guess we'll find out. Mind you, if he's lost some weight recently, things may have evened out. We also dod the blood panel and testing his liver values, so let's see if my earlier wall of research has paid off and those liver values are coming down. At least his belly isn't as round as it used to be and he doesn't groan if you feel his guts now, so things must be improving a bit at least.

Anyway, so I also asked the specialist about Mr Frisky and if she'd never heard of that before. The fact that he likes a certain type of lady, naming working dogs, was very specific, let alone a neutered male going after a nuetered female! She seems to think he may have had that particular fancy in him all along but was just to low to do anything about it. Now that he's better, maybe he's up to the chase. And chase he does! Pretty funny watching a 13 1/2 year old scotty x quite literally chasing a 2 y/o Kelpie around the oval! :eek: He's just not as fast and can't keep up, so then he makes little complaint noises that she keeps running from him. Always good for a laugh. Dirty old man.....

So that's us for now. No big changes (though I suspect Oscar is now presenting with a collapsing trachea) but pretty much status quo. Just crossing fingers for good ACTH numbers as well.

Will be on holidays again in a week so will do a full catch up everywhere then. Meanwhile, will do a cursory check up on everyone. Take care!

[Squirt's Mom]

Good to hear from you, Naomi! And really good to hear things are going good in your world. Let us know what the ACTH shows and pop in when you can. You are missed!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Yay Naomi. Good to hear from you and I'm so glad that Frasier has continued his Mr. Frisky, might have to start calling him Frisky Frasier. Has a nice ring to it. How cute about his crush on the kelpie. Got to give him that, he knows what he likes. hehehe
Oh dear, poor Oscar. Always something to keep us on our toes I suppose.
Have a good week. Do hope that Frasier's numbers are right where they are suppose to be and that the liver values have come down to where they should be too.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Well Damn.

Just spoke to specialist, his cortisol levels have dropped again :(

Pre 37 n/mol, post 30.3 n/mol. Below dechra range but still within bottom of Nelson/feldman. (bottom of range is 27)

Plan is to reduce to 1x daily of few days then back to 2x daily on reduced dose of 5 or 7mg.

Unfortunately his liver values have gone even higher it seems, (dont have numbers yet, she is emailing them to me) so will have to start looking further into that. Will post more later when I've had a look and comparison. Prob tomorrow.

AARRGGHH!

[SoggyDoggy]

Ok, have full labs report now and need some interpretation of the following bloods. (only flagged results posted. Hematology all good and other biochem results are ok)

CK u/l 850 (47-228) (422 on 25 Oct 2012)
AST u/l 311 (10 - 60) (96 on 25 oct)
ALT u/l 1340 (21-142) (401 on 25 Oct)
ALK Phos u/l 4972 (20-184) This is NOT a misprint! (1750 on 25 Oct)
GGT u/l 72 (1-8) (50 on 25 Oct)
Bilirubin u.mol/L <2 (2-17) (same as Oct)
Urea m.mol/L 11.3 (3.6-10.0) (was 8.1 on 25 Oct)
Chol m.mol/L 11.8 (3.30-6.90) (was 8.3 25 Oct)
Na m.mol/L 138 (139-154) (was 146 25 Oct)
Ca m.mol/L 2.87 (2.20 - 2.8) (was 3.06 in Oct)

Report: There are increases in hepatic enzymes compatible with moderate active hepatocellular damage and induction of alk phos and GGT associated with cholestasis or steroids. The magnitude of increase in ALT is greater than is typically encountered secondary to hypoadrenocorticism, and a concurrent hepatopathy is possible in this patient. The mild increase in urea maybe prerenal or provide evidence of extrarenal factors including gastrointestinal bleeding and increase protein catabolism and there are mild and non-specific alterations in sodium and calcium.

Other changes since tests on 25th Oct are:
Lipase: Was 583 now 403 (30-560)
K: was 5.5 now 5.1 (3.4 - 5.3)
Albumin: was 39 now 36 (24-38)

So, what does this all mean?????:confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused:

[molly muffin]

Ack That is getting low on the post number. We have another dog, a Jack Russell that has been on the same dose for a few months and the cortisol there is continuing to go down too.
Frasier is still acting okay though right? Frisky even.
Are you considering having an ultrasound done to check the liver again? Is it just the ALP going up or the ALT too? Are any other values elevated?

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey Sharlene, Yes to the ultra sound. We are going to try some specific liver anti b's and denosyl first for a few weeks then retest, hoping it is an infection. I have to recover financially from yesterdays tests first so need to wait another couple of weeks before considering the ultra sound. I do realise that it needs to be done and it's a good way of having a look around, but it is very $$$$.

Meanwhile, I guess a bit of interpretation of above results would help somewhat. I don't know what I'm dealing with here. Now starting to look at liver diets. He has definitely lost weight recently, 1/2 kilo in fact, but he is still pretty bright and happy in himself. In saying that though, he's hardly eaten much in the last 2 days, but then neither has Oz. Been raining here and bit too wet to go for a walk. When they don't get a walk for two days, that's enough to stop them eating. They are both very regimented :o I just don't know at this stage.

[molly muffin]

Hi Naomi, yes I do understand the $$$$ thing. Completely.

I'd let the others who are better with the numbers address Frasiers results.

They have mentioned possible cholestasis, which would show up on an ultrasound. That would be a blockage, since the AKLP and the GGT went up and the Bili essentially has not nor has Albumin. (normally seen with Liver Disease from what my vet told me)

Was any sort of further urinaylisis done? I'd want to have a very complete urine check done to show Bilirubin, or other abnormalities in the urine as that might be able to tell you more information if this is an issue with the bile not getting through or not enough at least and causing the problems specific to the liver.

That is just an initial thought, but like I said the others would know better.

hugs, Sharlene and Molly Muffin

A kidney panel might be worth while to have done too.

[SoggyDoggy]

Sorry guys but BUMP. Really need some thoughts on those blood results. Anyone? I'm lost now, have no idea.

Also, no urinalysis, jsut bloods. I was fully expecting good results all round, not this!

[molly muffin]

BUMP, can someone take a look at Frasiers lab work that is off and indicating problems. Naomi needs a plan. :)

Sharlene

[labblab]

Hi Naomi,

I'm so sorry these issues have come up for you two!! Sharlene has been doing a wonderful job of trying to help and also summoning others of us to help. Sadly, though, I don't know very much about liver abnormalities which would seem to be what you are dealing with. Everything I've read does point to an ultrasound as the next best diagnostic, which you already know. Or what about a bile acids test -- has that been discussed? For what it's worth, here's are links to a couple of articles that I've found helpful in the past. But I don't know whether or not they will tell you anything else now that you don't already know.

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=325515&pageID=1&sk=&date=

http://www.idexx.it/pdf/it_it/smallanimal/vetlab/catalyst/diagnosing-liver-disease.pdf

I will keep my eyes open and shoot along any other helpful literature that I may find.

Marianne

[addy]

I went on the Dogaware site and Mary has many tests and links listed. I did not post the link to her website as I thought it may be too overwhelming, sorting through it yourself.:(

The ultra sound will give a better picture I think. I understand the money issues, sometimes we have to wait or pick which may give us the best "bang for our buck" so to speak.

I wish I had helpful input but I do not.:o:o

I can give you a big hug though:)

[Harley PoMMom]

I believe the abnormal values in the electrolytes, namely the sodium (NA), potassium (K), and calcium (CA) might be attributed to the low post number. Dr Peterson recommends that the post number not drop any further than 2 ug/dl (55 n/mol) so Fraser's post number does concern me.

I agree with Marianne's suggestion of a bile acid test, as it can be an aid in the evaluation of liver function.

Gosh Naiomi, so sorry you are having these issues with Fraser and I do hope that this turns around soon.

Sending huge hugs and love, Lori

[SoggyDoggy]

At work right now so need to make this quick.

Thanks guys for the replies though. Weirdly I'm not even worried about the ACTH numbers as that is a known quantity with a seemingly very easy solution. I took him off Trilo for a couple of days then have been on 10mg morning only, but will start on new dose of 5mg bd on thursday. (wow, what a drop from the initial 60mg!) Re-evaluate in a month then.

It's the liver tests that are really concerning me. I am going to book him in for an ultra sound next week when I am on holidays and don't need to take another day off work (also, payday next week) so will get a full picture then. The hardest thing is the unknown I think. Is it an infection, is it a blockage, is it cancer? Is it something else I haven't even considered???

In the meantime, I have been trying to look for info re liver diets, but knowing how much of a fussy bug he is (would prefer to starve than eat something he doesn't like - even in full blown cushing's mode) I don't even know if I'm wasting my time there either. If anyone has any hints for home cooked liver friendly foods, I'm all ears.

Thanks again.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Naomi,

I can recommend a good book that has some liver diets in it - K9 Kitchen by Monica Segal. You can get used copies from Amazon fairly inexpensively. Monica also has a nutrition forum that is very active - Monica often responds herself and she has some really good, knowledgeable moderators. Here is a link to her forum - http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/

Just off the top of my head she recommends fish, eggs, yogurt and veggies that have both soluable and insoluable fibers in a good balance. I will be glad to write up the diets from my copy of her book and PM them if you like. I am working on the same thing as you since it appears Squirt's liver is damaged. :( Being a 15 year old organ doesn't help either in her case. Her appetite is also very iffy these days so I am frequently having to change what I offer her...and fearing the day when nothing is appealing to her. :( Fraser is much younger so you shouldn't have to face that issue, hopefully.

Squirt's latest diet contains dark chicken meat, sweet potatoes, white rice, salmon, beef liver and quinoa (with calcium carbonate, taurine, zinc, manganese, fish oil and Vit E added) from her nutritional / herbal consultant, Catherine Lane. This worked well until she got sick a few weeks ago and she is turning up her nose at this now. :rolleyes: This morning the thought of trying RAW actually crossed my mind as a serious option :eek: - and I am NOT a raw proponent at all, especially in pups who are already ill. It was a straw grasping thought - one of many I have every hour it seems.

I think the US and bile acid test are great ideas. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks Leslie, any help at this stage is welcome. I wouldn't call Fraser a lot younger than Squirt though, just a little. He is 13.5 yrs, 14 in September so he's done a fair wicket himself.

I emailed the blood results to my sister and was just at her house while she looked at them. She seems to think his white cell count is raised as well which may be why the specialist thought there could be an infection causing this, so I can still live in hope I guess (for a while anyway)

The bit that is not helping with diet at the moment is that both of the boys are actually intolerant to chicken. It gives both very sloppy bowel movements and revolting breath! They are good with turkey but it's frequently not available. I'm just not sure if red meat (i.e. beef and lamb) actually adds to the problem? So any help or recipes you could pass on would be great.

I will definitely check out that website over the weekend, the next couple of days at work are going to be madness, but come midday friday I am on holidays! Bring them on!

Thanks again!

[Trish]

Hi Naomi, will pop over for cuppa! Bit of a long walk though :) loving Melbourne, great shopping!

I also would want ultrasound to check what's happening in liver, gall bladder area. Also renal panel with urea up, ask for UPC.

Bet yr hanging out for holidays to spend more time with the boys will catch up better when I get home, typing on this iPad sucks

Tris xxx

[Harley PoMMom]

Does Fraser like fish? Here are 2 links to diets for a dog with liver issues, the first link is to a liver cleansing diet: http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Liver%20cleansing%20diet.htm

This second link is a liver friendly diet: http://www.monicasegal.com/liver-friendly-diet.html

[addy]

from what I read on Dogaware, you dont want to cut the protein down too much unless it is diagnosed severe liver disease.

I thought for sure I posted the diet link from that website but must have dreamed it:o:o

I'll go find it again:):)

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks guys, I will definitely check these out. As for fish, he will eat it sometimes (on his terms of course) Pork is his favourite (after ham of course, but that's only for pills, and a tiny amount at that). But for a country surrounded by water, fish can be horrendously expensive here. Mind you 50% of that is just because it's Perth. It's a well know fact here that to go out for dinner, what you would pay $10 for in Melbourne, will cost $30 or so here. We have been officially labeled as one of the top 10 most expensive cities to live in in the world. :eek:

But still, blood test results and my worry not withstanding, he obviously still feels ok. Was busy chasing his Kelpie girlfriend around the park again last night. :p I asked the specialist about that - she's never heard of it before (as in a neutered male going for a neutered female), and the fact that he is so specific that he will only go after working dogs gave her a laugh! I think that's what has hit me so hard with this news. I really wasn't expecting it! Thought he was doing great! :o

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Naomi,
I have been following your thread ever since you messaged me about being a teacher and needing time off sometimes to taken care of Frazier and get testing done. You helped me to be able to put it all Into perspective, so thanks again.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that Fraser is doing better. At least he's chasing after girls that have jobs! Ha:D

Kathy and Buddy:)

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

Hi Noami, I am happy Fraser is doing better. What testing did you decide on? Thinking of both of you.

Sharon

[Squirt's Mom]

Lori found links to the diets I was talking about so you have that info here. Thanks, Lori!

[SoggyDoggy]

So here's a question for you. What happens if a dog gets 5 consecutive days of double dose Denasyl?

I was giving Fraser his dose tonight and thought "these look smaller than the other ones" so looked at the dose on the back of the strip, 225mg. Went to look at the dose on the old strip, 425mg. :eek::eek: Partly my own fault for not looking I guess, but when I got the pack, there was 5 missing, obviously it's been opened and some cut off for somebody at one point, I just thought, "oh well, will tell them about that this week" but didn't look at the strength of the 5 on the cut strip. It turns out they were the high dose 425mg!

Question is, what effect could that have had on Fraser long term? (he had no obvious side effects over those 5 days) He has since been on the 225mg for 3 doses now, but now I'm worried!

On a progress note, he is still pretty bright, was very tired the other day and a bit down, but I think that was lack of his afternoon nap as he was good again the next morning. I am definitely noticing signs that he is getting old now though. He has lost qite a bit of muscle mass lately. His neck feels just like bone without much covering it, and I am now seeing his spine starting to stick out. He just doesn't necessarily look like he's lost a lot of weight, but if his liver is so enlarged (which I know it is, you pat his tummy and hear the hollow liver sound) he must have lost more than it looks. When he went to the vet last week, he had lost 1/2 kilo then, now the lightest weight he has ever been.

I'm ringing specialist on Monday morning to book the U/S. I just hope the extra dose of Denasyl hasn't compounded any problems! :(

P.S have now commenced 5mg bd trilostane. Long way from the original 60mg id! I'm even starting to wonder if he even really does have cushings! Seems a really low dose now!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Naomi,

Denasyl is SAMe and it is generally very safe, even in high doses. Here is what one source has to say -


Safety

Denosyl demonstrates an exceptionally wide margin of safety. Oral acute toxicity studies in rats indicated an LD50 greater than 4,640 mg/kg.6 Clinically healthy dogs administered 20 mg/kg/day of Denosyl for 6 weeks and clinically healthy cats administered Denosyl at 2 times the recommended daily amount for 113 days remained healthy with no adverse effects from administration of Denosyl.

http://www.drugs.com/vet/denosyl.html

So, I wouldn't worry over much about the dose mix up. ;)

I hope the testing goes well and shows no issues to concern you.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SoggyDoggy]

Oh thank god for that! Thanks Leslie! I did do a bit of searching but the only thing I found was the standard "contact your vet in case of overdose" and I'm thinking, "well, it was three days ago, bit late to contact now". Just hoping it did more good than bad for his liver. :o

Guess it at least explains why the pills were so big!

[Trish]

HI Naomi
Woopsies!! Sounds like no harm done though phew! How much is that costing you over there? We were considering it for Flynn but his liver tests actually improved a little last check so it's on hold for now, but maybe on again in the future. Vet said it is real expensive.

Hope it helps Fraser's liver, scan results will be good to see whats happening. Pleased to see he is still his frisky self :D

Trish

[Squirt's Mom]

It is very expensive! I just bought 1 oz of liquid SAMe for Squirt and it was $39 with shipping! :eek: But she only gets a couple of drops a day so hopefully it will last.

[SoggyDoggy]

I've seen online prices for 225mg of Denasyl ranging from $140-80 AUD. thats for 30 tabs! :eek: Get this though, from the vet it was $20AUD! :confused: For 30 tabs! Will continue to get them from the vet in future! :D Just hope they are working!

[Trish]

Eek! My vet said about $80 for 30 tabs, so hope if we do end up on them can find it a bit cheaper...

[SoggyDoggy]

Wow! I seriously hope the girls at the front desk didn't screw up the price when I bought them then! I was very pleasantly surprised when I saw $20 for 30 tabs! At this rate it's still cheaper than the trilostane :D (mind you, it was still $50 for 3 weeks of anti b's!)

Why can't anything ever be easy????:o:o

[Trish]

Because vets as well as helping our pets and drug companies like to make money, cynical aren't I!

[Skye]

wish they made prescription cards or discount cards for animal pharmacy type stuff. It will happen one day, hopefully.
you know like a AARP card or something.

[SoggyDoggy]

No, I'm cynical too, which is why I was so amazed that the vet's denosyl only cost 25% of the cheapest price I found online! Hey, I MORE than happy to get it for $20! Was just very unexpected in a really good way :D

[molly muffin]

That is a great price Naomi. I'd be thrilled to, happy dancing all over the house. LOL

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SoggyDoggy]

Ultrasound is booked for Wednesday. Are they going to shave his belly? :o his coat is so soft I don't want to see him with big shaved patches :o

[Harley PoMMom]

When Harley had his ultrasounds they did shave his belly, he loved that because it seemed to make him feel cooler.

Wishing you and Fraser the best of luck with the ultrasound and will be waiting anxiously with you for the results.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Trish]

Unfortunately yes, Flynn always gets shaved for his scans.

I was envious of the teachers driving past the shut schools this morning, enjoy your holiday! Do you have to do much work during these breaks? Seems like they just went back after the Christmas hols!

[Simba's Mom]

Praying for good test results, sending hugs too!

[Trish]

Popping in to wish you a big GOOD LUCK for tomorrow with Fraser's scan, hope it gives you some answers.... xx night night I am off to bed early... well 11.40pm!

[SoggyDoggy]

Needed a laugh tonight so I went to my default website. Posted this in "Everything Else" as well, but if you don't see it there, check out this link. Language warning attached to some of them, but it's all meant to be in fun.

http://textfromdog.tumblr.com

[molly muffin]

Cracking up! Love those!!
Now I'm giggling at my desk and everyone must think I'm nuts!
Thanks for the laugh!
Sharlene

[SoggyDoggy]

Had the Ultra Sound a couple of hours ago. They will email through the full report this afternoon, but it's not good news. He has very large mass on his liver which unfortunately is on a vital lobe and very close to the blood supply. Can't tell without a CT if it looks cancerous or not, but at this point I don't really think it would matter anyway. They would be unlikely to be able to remove the whole thing even if we did go for surgery because of the placement but the surgery would put him through a major abdominal trauma. He's 14 in september, I can't do it to him. I can't stop crying. He's also lost another 1/2 kilo in the last 10 days.

[doxiesrock912]

I am so sorry to hear this news!
Praying for you both!

[Trish]

Oh blardy hell :mad: Oh I feel for you right now Naomi. But Fraser is a tough little thing if his ongoing flirting is anything to go by!! I see you are online, I just got home. I am going to get myself a quick drink and snack and write to you what happened when we found Flynny's liver tumour... he is still here nearly 18mths later so it does not have to be all doom and gloom! xxx

[Trish]

Right, got my coke zero! I would put some bourbon in it if I had any!!

Back in November 2011 he collapsed, I was at work but Mum and Dad rushed him off to the vet. He was generally shocked and looking pretty awful (in hindsight it may well have been his pheo that made him collapse as we never got to the bottom of the actual reason for collapse) anyway, they thought he was bleeding somewhere so local vet did an ultrasound on their not too flash machine. It showed a huge liver mass as well. She told me at the time the mass was over whole liver and looked malignant and it was not good news for Flynn. He was 10 1/2 at the time. She resuscitated him with IV fluids etc, but by the time I got there she was pretty much told me it was all over and nothing they could do. :eek::eek: She said they could biopsy but that she did not really recommend it because it looked so bad on the scan. I took him home with me that night, as it is not a 24hr service there and he would have been on his own if he stayed and I was not having that. So Flynny boy and his IV came home with me in the car. My sister and niece came over and stayed the night as we all thought it was going to be his last. Gawd such drama, it was awful. I watched over him all night, monitored the IV and he started perking back up!

So, OK I thought, you not ready to go yet are you boy. What to do, what to do. I rang and asked about what biopsy involved, was told it was just by needle aspiration under ultrasound and he did not need anaesthetic for it. So I thought we have nothing to lose and everything to gain. So we did it. He was better that day, drinking and eating so IV came out.

The next day.... my cat Simba died of renal failure, then we all felt guilty we had been saying goodbye to the wrong pet and not paying enough attention to the puss. We thought he had gone outside to be alone because of all the fuss surronding Flynn :( Poor puss.

Anyway, I digress. Later on the day Simba died the vet rang and told me that the biopsy was benign!?!?! :eek: WHAT?? Talk about an emotional roller coaster. She also did urgent referral to the pet hospital for CT scan and review by surgeon (the same one who did his adrenalectomy in December). So the next day we rushed down there, the CT showed it was not as bad as initial low quality ultrasound appeared and was resectable. They did find a couple of liver nodules on the right side of his liver and biopsied them as well as checking out the rest of him, like lungs for mets. Luckily the biopsies showed only nodular lesions and nothing else was found. Although they now say on hindsight when they were investigating the pheo last year that CT did have a little speck on adrenal which grew over the year till they could see it on scan a year later.

So a couple of days later he had the tumour which was 650g removed along with over a third of his liver. It was on the left side. The surgeon did say the other side of liver is harder to get at because of blood vessels but they can do it.

He was in hospital two nights, he hated it. He is not used to being in a cage, but once out he recovered fairly quickly until the pheo reared its ugly head. But they were not related at all, he was just incredibly unlucky to get two primary cancers.

When histology came back it was not a benign hepatoma as per initial biopsy but a low grade massive hepatocellular carcinoma. It had also burst through the liver at one point and small part adhered to omentum but he was able to get clear margins around that.

His liver tests have remained high, but last lot were lower so I am hopeful that cancer is not causing any of his problems now.

Phew sorry about the novel, but I just wanted you to read that even though it looks terrible initially sometimes things have a way of working out.

Who did you see today? A surgeon, IMS or local vet? I would have to say go for CT to see exactly what it is. It may be like Flynn's that ultrasound looks awful, but CT can show it may be resectable if that is what you wanted to do. Fraser sounds like a spunky wee dog and not ready to turn his toes up yet!

xx

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks Trish. We saw his IMS and his scan was on a high res machine, so they got as much of a look as they possibly can without going a CT.

She discussed doing the fine needle aspiration but admitted that it's not a great diagnostic tool as often the cells don't come up properly, and that they could do a biopsy, but that would require sedation. A CT scan is nearly $2000 and surgery on top of that would be another $3-4000 easily. Between the two boys I have paid out nearly $10,000 in the last 10 months anyway, I just don't have anymore left. I've even investigated cashing in my long service leave but even that wouldn't cover it. My credit card is maxed out, I have a mortgage and no savings to fall back on anymore. It's simply come to a quality of life issue. As long as he is happy and not sick I can keep him with me, but I feel the time will rapidly approach when I will have to make that choice - and it's killing me. I just hope and wish that he goes to bed one night and simply doesn't wake up. As hard as that would be, I think it would be easier than making that decision, I just don't know how I will do it. he is my baby boy.

At this point I have no way of knowing how much time we may have together. I don't know how fast this tumor has grown but I suspect it has been pretty fast, as just over 12 months ago his liver tests were normal. I just have to make the most of what we have. Instead I've booked a session for a photo shoot for the boys so I will have some beautiful images to treasure forever. I booked it with the same lady that took the photo of my sisters dog that I pm'd you. She's taken shots for RSPCA and national geographic amongst other things, so she is excellent. That's in two weeks. I wanted to get it done before he loses too much more weight and looks ill. As I said earlier, he's lost another 1/2 kilo in the last 10 days. He's pretty much all tummy and fur now. His neck is so fine and his legs are pretty lean too now, but he can still jump into the car and his eyes still sparkle most of the time. He does get tired pretty quickly these days, so we just have to pace ourselves and make sure the afternoon nap isn't interrupted.

To top all this off, there was something weird with his adrenals too. One had a small nodule on it but otherwise neither looked particularly enlarged. She said they weren't typical of pdh. I did say here a couple of weeks ago that I was questioning the cushing's. Will keep him on the 5mg bd trilo for a while, but if he get's nauseous or his appetite drops at all, then that's stopping too - permanently. I forgot to ask whether to continue Denosyl so have sent an email asking that. Should hear back when the full report comes in.

[Trish]

Shite, I was hoping it was not a good scanner and that could change things. That is an outrageous price for CT, ours was only $800 which I thought was bad enough.

Yes, the trouble with fine needle biopsy it can be like poking a needle into an apple looking for a tumour the size of the pea, easy to miss it. They do say it is better to do open biopsy. Still the fine needle has served us well so far.

The $$ side of thing so sucks, I had to get an overdraft to pay for our bills, then I found myself a little extra work to pay it back. I was lucky I found something to help the finances like that while still working full time. I have really only just recovered after two years of horrendous vet bills. I am too scared to add them all up as they would probably go close to paying off my mortgage too. So I do understand there can come a point when quality of life is the most important thing. I to would dread to have to make that decision, going to sleep and not waking would be the nicest but none of them are easy. Love the sound of the photo shoot, your sisters dog looks amazing in that photo.... I hope you get one of Fraser swimming about, I always think of him like that... or chasing his girlfriends!

Please post the results when you get them Naomi, this is such stink news for you and Fraser. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[labblab]

Oh Naomi, it's not often that I am speechless, but I am stunned by the scan results. It sounds so feeble to only be able to say I am so sorry. But that is the truth, and I just want you to know that I am following every word and will be so anxious to know how things develop for you and for Fraser.

Sending many healing hugs across the miles and the time zones,
Marianne

[addy]

Dearest Naomi,

My heart and prayers go out to you. I understand fully about the money and not wanting to put Fraser through more. You are probably in shock right now and need some time for all the information to settle in.
Please know we are here for you and Frazer.

I wish I could scream and yell how unfair life seems for our all our pups. I cant so will continue to hold them all close in my heart.

((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))

[molly muffin]

Oh Naomi :( This is so not the kind of news that you could possibly have suspected and prepared for. Frasier seems so happy and just doing his thing. It is so very unfair. I'm with Addy, I just want to scream in frustration.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Squirt's Mom]

Sweet Naomi,

This is such a raw deal for both of you. I am beyond sorry. When I read your post, my heart dropped to my stomach, my throat closed up, and the tears flowed. I can well imagine how helpless you feel, how scared and sad you are. :(

For what it's worth, I would definitely continue the Denosyl and seriously consider stopping the Trilo - the elevated cortisol may actually help the tumor and the Trilo may be worse on the liver than the cortisol would be. I have a friend who's non-cush baby was just diagnosed with liver cancer and Denosyl is the only thing her vet gave her baby. She started her baby on Milk Thistle with the vet's approval along with the Denosyl.

I totally understand your position on the biopsy. There comes a time when doing more is worse than doing less. So we simply do all we can now. Even if I were a wealthy as a Rockefeller I couldn't ask Squirt to go through another surgery no matter what they found. I also completely understand the hope they simply drift off in their sleep, that they "go gentle into that good night."

My thoughts and prayers are with you both, honey. Please, please know your family is here for you anytime, for any reason.
Hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie and the gang

[Harley PoMMom]

Dearest Naomi,

I am so sorry, too. :( Sending you and sweet Fraser tons of huge and loving hugs, Lori

[Boriss McCall]

oh no Naomi & Fraser..
This just does not seem fair. :( I am so sorry you got such bad news.
I do hope you get to enjoy lots of sweet time & cuddles with your boy.

The photo shoot sounds like such a lovely idea. You will have to post the pix after they are done.

We are all sad with you today. I hope Fraser stays comfy & out of pain & gives you many many days, months, years more of happiness.

hugs..

[Budsters Mom]

Naomi,

My heart goes out to you and your precious Fraser.:p Sending love, hope and wellness thoughts your way.

Kathy and Buddy:cool:

[Trish]

HI Naomi, I went to sleep thinking how unfair life is. It so sucks to read especially news like this especially for the pups we come so attached to on here. I love reading about Fraser and Oscar's antics.

Pleased you are on leave so you don't have to worry about heading in to work today. Hope you managed to get some sleep, the good thing is that Fraser is oblivious to it all and is just delighted Mum is staying home with him! It is you and us that have to carry the burden and worry but we will help you there as much as we can. Hope you have a nice day in Perth and get out in the fresh air for a bit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

Thanks guys for all the support. Yesterday was a very difficult day but I have to move past that. As my dad put it, he has a terminal disease, but he's not dying. As much as I know that, I can't help but add a "yet" after it. For now I just have to take comfort in the fact that he is still happy and still smiling.

Leslie, Thanks for the tip about your friend. I did ask the IMS the same question via email and she said the choice was mine. There was argument both for and against the denosyl, but if he was ok taking them and didn't object then she would probably continue. As for the trilostane, he is only on 5mg bd now, so I guess I will continue that for a bit, maybe till the bottle runs out and then stop it. I don't know, just have to watch him and see how he goes I guess. I still haven't got the full report as they were super busy yesterday and the tech didn't finish. Our doc was going to check on it today, but I guess she forgot today is a public holiday (ANZAC day - same in NZ for Trish) so I will probably get that tomorrow. At this point I think I'm more interested in what it says about the adrenals! That's a weird one :o

I think he got a bit fed up with me yesterday, he ended up avoiding me a bit (too many tears I guess), played toy with my sister instead. That was a kick in the pants but I needed the prompt of "get over yourself". So today I have blown off a family barbecue with the cousins at my dads and am going to the beach with my sister and the boys instead. The water will be too cold (especially for his shaved tummy and skinny bones) but he still loves to run along the beach like a lunatic so we will go do that. I just have to keep in mind that he can't overdo it anymore, it takes him days to get over too much excitement now. That's something I've been noticing for a while now, it's not new. The downside of this is that then he has to come home and have another bath. He really hates them, and this will be twice this week then. But at least it's a semblance of normalcy again so I can get him back to a routine. Meanwhile, I'll just have to keep feeding him up to keep the meat on his bones. Never thought I would call my SoggyDoggy a SkinnyBinny! Will post some pics if I get any decent ones later on.

Take care everyone and thanks again.

[addy]

love you both, sweetie, one day at a time is all we can do and enjoy each day we can

[mcdavis]

So very sorry to hear about Fraser - as others have said it just doesn't seem fair.
The photo shoot is a nice idea, but in addition take as many photos as you can, and video too if possible.
I'd also recommend the milk thistle and S-Adenosyl - I gave it to Hamish for 4 months and it helped reduce his ALT values.

[Fellasmom]

Naomi
I just wanted to say that reading about Fraser brought tears to my eyes.Life is so unfair sometimes!Sending loving thoughts and lots of love and hugs to Fraser.My homeopathic vet loves Milk Thistle for the liver.My Golden Kelsey had elevated liver function,and milk thistle helped her quite a bit.I have you and your sweet Fraser in my thoughts and prayers.
Patty

[Simba's Mom]

So sorry to hear about the tumor, what next for you precious Fraser...just take one day at a time and live each day to the fullest....I try do that with Sim too, cuz we just never know what will happen...praying that Fraser's tumor is not canerous...sending healing hugs....

[Skye]

okay....we have seemingly rounded a corner in this journey that has brought some dark clouds strong winds and all that scary unsettling things....okay...everyone hook arms, focus on only the step were taking at this time, not the next, one step at a time, were all hooked together and were going to get through this. I have read about tumeric helping with tumors. The spice we use in the kitchen....i know traditional specialty medicine doesnt offer to much support in this, and have also heard of success on Protandim.
opening my arms to you and your baby.............kiss on snout and gentle tummy rub to soggydoggy and warm embrace to you my friend.

[SoggyDoggy]

Just read the report. Mass is bigger than 10cm but not uniform in shape so can't be properly defined.


Conclusions:
1. Very large axially located hepatic mass, with mild enlargement, increased echogenicity and nodular change within the remaining hepatic lobes. Considerations for the mass include a primary hepatic neoplasm (eg hepatoma, low-grade hepatocellular carcinoma) or 'mass-like' nodular hyperplastic lesion. The changes described in the remaining lobes likely represent a steroid hepatopathy (secondary to hyperadrenocorticism) with concurrent nodular hyperplasia, however the presence of metastatic nodules cannot be entirely excluded.
2. Mild right-sided adrenomegaly and small left adrenal. This appearance is not consistent with pituitary dependent hyperadrenocorticism and instead suggests the presence of a small functional right adrenal adenoma/adenocarcinoma with left-sided adrenal atrophy.
3. Equivocal splenomegaly which may be a normal variation or represent benign extramedullary haematopoiesis. An underlying malignancy is considered highly unlikely but cannot be entirely excluded on the basis of sonography alone.
4. Mild urinary bladder wall thickening which may be artifactual as a result of minimal distension, or potentially, represent a chronic cystitis.

Comment: On the basis of the size and location of the hepatic mass, surgical excision may not be possible. If surgical intervention is to be considered, an abdominal CT (+/-thorax) and consultation with a soft tissue surgeon would be strongly advised.

Guess it wasn't pdh after all. Should have done the ultra sound 10 months ago when this started. Shoulda Woulda Coulda......... Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? And yet, would it have actually changed anything? That I'll never know.

[Mel-Tia]

Hello there

I have tears streaming down my face for you and your guy, how cruel life can be sometimes. You could never have known it would have turned out this way. The stat they quote is something like 85 percent are pdh they are high odds

I wish we had more than words at this time. I saw you online and I wanted you to know I am here to listen if you need me too

Big hug and kisses to the pups

Mel
Xxx

[Trish]

Hi Naomi

Well that sucks, so what is plan moving forward? Treat symptomatically I guess, so pleased to hear he is doing relatively well. I remember when Flynns was diagnosed, we thought he was getting fat and had put him on a diet when it turned out to be the massive tumour I felt terrible.

So adrenal tumour after all, few of them around lately. Hope u have a good day, trying to convince myself to get out of bed for our 7.30 meeting but at least it's Friday xx

[molly muffin]

Well that sucks. :(
I hope this isn't overly aggressive and he'll have plenty of time with you. It doesn't sound like it has invaded the vena cava, so I am going to go with hoping for the very best possibilities. I still think it is sucky though :(

hugs, to you and belly scritches to Frasier
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hi Naomi
Been thinking of you... How has the day gone for you and the boys? Hopefully you had some fun times! Looking forward to seeing the pics you friend does of the boys :)
Trish xx

[Skye]

I want to make sure i understand. There is a tumor on the adfenal gland and its functionable, but small. And theliver....they are not sure but think it is cancer?

[Trish]

It's weird, but thats pretty much the same as what Flynn has had but just in the other order, liver cancer appeared first. Then adrenal a year later but in hindsight was probably also there when liver cancer was diagnosed.

[Mel-Tia]

Thinking of you. Hope your doing ok?

Kisses and belly rubs to the boys and a big hug for you

Mel
Xxxxx

[Boriss McCall]

Hope you & Fraser have a good weekend together. lots of love & cuddles..

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey guys, thanks for the well wishes.

They don't know if the tumour on the liver is cancerous or not, only that if it is, it doesn't appear to have spread at least. The issue is the size of it. It is too big to be removed and if they did go after it, would not be able to get the whole thing anyway because of the location next to the major blood vessels, it is on the centre lobe of the liver. They also don't know how aggressive or fast growing it is as this is the first ultrasound he's ever had, hence my comment on should have done it 12 months ago. At this point I am just hoping it has been there for years, and has only recently started to affect him, but that he will continue as is for a while yet. I am not going to pursue it further, he hates going to the vets and I won't put him through more scans and surgery. Not to mention, it costs way more than I have the resources for. For now the plan is, monitor the cushing's as always, if he drops low again, cease all treatments and just make sure he is happy for however long that is. I have no time reference to go on at all so it's just day at a time. I don't think it will be soon as he is still pretty happy and a demanding little turd, but whether we are talking months or another year, who knows. I will just continue to spoil him rotten and give him lots of cuddles.

He woke me up yesterday morning. Hi face was about an inch away from my nose and he was staring at me and sighing to wake me up. Apparently it was breakfast time and he was hungry. Was so super cute I made him give me cuddles for 5 minutes first -he thought that was good too. Rolled straight over for a tummy rub. :p

In the meantime, Oscar is benefitting from all of the extra spoils too. Where Fraser has lost a kilo in the past month, Oz has put 1/2 kilo on! He is looking positively rounded! He is usually a self moderator when it comes to his weight, in the last 10 years his weight hasn't varied more than 500g - with the exception of when he had his knee surgery last year and lost weight - he is now at his heavy winter weight so I just hope he doesn't bulk up any more. I strongly suspect that he is in the early stages of collapsing trachea, so weight will be a watch factor for him.

Trish - I too noticed the similarity between Fraser and Flynn. My first thought was "Jeez, did you have to copy HIM?" ;) But at least so far, everything else is looking ok. No diabetes, no pancreatitis, kidneys ok, so at least he drew the line somewhere. So glad there was a line!

Oh well, beach story. We went down to the river on thursday, Oz was pretty glad to be there, running up and down the sand like an idiot, but Fraser wasn't his usual bright self. The tide was high and the water was pretty cold so I didn't really want him going for a swim. I had his ball and was throwing that for him, but at one point it left my hand late and ended up about 1.5 meters from shore, so of course he went in after it. Well it appeared that he had just been watning to go for a swim. As soon as he came out of the water, it was on. Puppy was back! :D He's such a lunatic when wet, and of course he had to have a big roll on the towel to dry himself off, but then he missed the towel and ended up covered in sand! Ergghh. Back for another swim boyo! Got him rinsed off a bit and then rubbed him down with the towel myself. He was pretty happy with that. We were only there for about 40 minutes, but that is enough to tire him out. After stopping off for a bath first, I bought them home where both boys then proceeded to sleep for about 5 hours. Ah, life as a spoilt pup! Got a couple of really cute pics of them both, will post them in the album shortly. So hard to believe he is not 100% well when you see him like that. Wish you could post short vids here, you would all laugh. (no, I don't have a youtube account or facebook either, I'm the last holdout!)

[molly muffin]

Awww, I love the Frasier stories. :) When they are so puppy like again, it just makes the heart feel really good. Dogs and water, LOL, It seems to really get them going doesn't it.

That's the whole thing right. Who knows how long it has been there, could have been years for all we know. Maybe it will just be that he gets tired a bit sooner than before. I hope that is all that it is and that he is around to give you morning kisses and cuddles for a really long time. It is hard if one just dwells on the what if's. Frasier has a lot of get up and go in him for an older chap. Chasing the girls still, and taking swims and playing ball. Heck, sounds like a pretty good deal to me :)

Have a good weekend!!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Trish - I too noticed the similarity between Fraser and Flynn. My first thought was "Jeez, did you have to copy HIM?" ;) But at least so far, everything else is looking ok. No diabetes, no pancreatitis, kidneys ok, so at least he drew the line somewhere. So glad there was a line!



Hey! One small point of difference, Flynn does not have diabetes and the pancreatitis is debatable as that problem was at the same time as retained swab!! :D:D Flynn's was a little lucky with the liver tumour, his was on the left and I remember surgeon said that was the better side to have it, he said other areas are operable but trickier for exactly the reasons you said. He was unlucky with the adrenal pheo as that had probably been there about 12-18 months prior to diagnosis.

I love your attitude Naomi! That Fraser is one lucky doggy to have you looking out for him, looks like he loved his swim and searching for snacks if your pics are anything to go by! I wish we could post videos too, maybe I should join youtube. Got a cute one of Flynn at the beach too.

Yep I am hoping that the mass has been there for years so not going to affect him for ages and ages and he is going to wake you up with the 'stare' many a time, although I always find it a tad creepy when they do that :eek::eek: Glad you had a good day!

[SoggyDoggy]

Went back and had a look at his earlier blood tests today. Alk phos was in the high 2000's in August last year. Now in April it's just under 5000. A pretty steep climb, but not as fast as I was thinking (I thought it had only been in the mid 1000's).

Doing lots of diet research now, trying to find how to balance his food with high calorie (he's getting skinny) with low fat and take some pressure off his liver. He's not a veggie fan, is intolerant of chicken and turned his nose up at fish. Fussy bum!


Hey! . :D:D:D. Thought you'd like that one :D

[Squirt's Mom]

I burst out laughing at the image of Fraser in your face this morning. :p It is a familiar one here - Squirt does that, too. Wake up to a tickle on the face, warm breath, and a pair of eyes 3" from yours intently staring. :D

For videos, I use Photobucket then post the link to it to share. You can set your pics and videos individually either public or private. It's also free and easy to use yet provides a bit of privacy when wanted.

I, too, love your attitude. Fraser is a lucky boy for sure.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Budsters Mom]

Naomi,
Thank you so much for your wonderful Frasier and Oscar stories. :) Thank you for the reminder about appreciating every day that we have with our precious fur babies. They know that they are loved and we all do the best that we can. You are a wonderful mom and your babies are very lucky to have you on their side. :)

Sending hugs and wellness thoughts to you, Frasier, and Oscar,
Kathy and Buddy:cool:

[Skye]

LOL ohhhhhhhhhhh that is soooooooooooooooo awesome how he woke you up!!!!! LOL!!!!!! I can just see you sleeping away off in dream land, and he is stirring and squirming and staring at you with very intense looks that are screaming WAKE UP!!!!!!! so he leans in closer........LOL!!!!!!!! that is so precious. Shysie will do this massive stretch across my face and belly crawl over me making me wake up for air. LOL then she finishes her stretch and yawns and smacks and looks at me like OH!!!! your awake???? well since your awake.......lol

[addy]

Hi Naomi,

Zoe has a liver mass too, we are not sure if it is cancer or not, her liver values went down, so I too, have decided not to pursue it with all the other issues she has.

The other night I was outside starring at the sky and realized none of us knows what tomorrow will bring for any of us, humas or dogs so what a waste it would be for me to spend each day worryng and crying over Zoe so I stopped. Now if I could just sleep past three am:rolleyes:

So I think your attitude is the best!!!!!!

[SoggyDoggy]

Hi Addy,

I think that's the exact same realisation I had with Fraser. You just don't know anymore, so stop wasting time and enjoy what there is. But I am so sorry you now have to face this along with everything else you have been through with Zoe. Still, if her liver values have gone down, that is a good sign! I wish Fraser's would, but I think it is probably a bit late for that now.

I told my sister today she is going to have to tell me when it's time for him. I don't always notice the little changes, especially if I don't want to see them, but as she doesn't see him quite as often (not to mention her super nose) she is more able to pick out the changes. But I know that time is not yet, nor will it be in the next month either. After that who knows?

Ok Story time again.......

We got to the park today and Fraser's ears went up. His girlfriend was there and he ran straight over to her. The sad thing was that she left to go home straight away and he didn't quite make it in time - she is really fast. Poor boy, he was left standing sniffing the ground where she was standing. :p Gave me a very pitiful look to say "but Muuuum!" Then came back for a cuddle and ear scratch instead. He was all smiles today. We'd all had a midday nanna nap :D

I went shopping for the boys yesterday too - Trying to get Fraser to put on a bit of weight again so I bought them some new kibble to try - the Ziwi Peak from NZ (Wow Trish, Don't they love THAT!) but also bought Ozzie a new harness (have to move away from the lead and collar now that he has a collapsing trachea - although mild yet) and also got him some socks. He is allergic to grass of all things :eek:, so after fighting me and not wanting them on, as soon as he hit ground and realised they were easy to walk in, took off in a flat out run accross the oval (towards my sister). Was so funny to watch, he only ever runs like that at the beach on the sand (where it doesn't hurt his feet). He then proceeded to prance around the park like he owned it, rather than pick his way through. He is a smart little thing, he knew exactly what was going on and didn't fight anywhere near as much today having his socks put on. :D

Fraser has picked up a new habit this week too. If I forget his pills (which I seem to have started to do recently) he now stands on the tiles and stamps his feet to get my attention. When I finally work out what it is he is doing and give them to him (I think what he is after is the ham more than anything) he then settles down as if all is right with his world. They are so funny the way they develop these little tricks. Its all about training us isn't it?

So even with all of the bad stuff going on, there is always still a light in each day. That's now what I look for and treasure. Must remember to take some more video at the park too.

[molly muffin]

Oh I love the stories! :)

Poor Frasier. He missed her girlfriend. Not that he had a chance of catching her from the sounds of it, but it's all about the chase anyway isn't it. hehehe I'm sure he felt better after the scritches and cuddles. (and maybe his pills and ham too) That is funny about foot stomping. You'll have to video it!

Oh Oscar, isn't he a hoot! I can certainly see him prancing around all over. Soon he'll be coming by to have you put his socks on him.

Lets face it. We will Never have enough time with them. Their life spans are just so short compared to ours. I cannot imagine being ready to have to make that decision, as in ever, even though we all know that one day we will. Just not today and not tomorrow.

Super big hugs Naoimi,

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

Oh Naomi, I know what you mean about Oz, Koko is putting on wait because Zoe gets chicken for eye drops, now for her iodine wipes and Koko is right there wanting his portion too.

They sure do train us, we dont train them:D:D:D

I love the stories too, keep them coming.

[Trish]

haha Koko and Oscar are too smart for their own good!!

Naomi - hope your holidays are going well and you are getting quality time with the boys and Fraser continues to hold his own for a long long time!

I have not seen Kangaroo pet food here, I have seen it in specialty stores but I bet it costs a fortune! He had been doing so well on his diet of venison/possum and ziwi. Shame it has all turned to custard in the past month. Starting probiotic, vet said to get a human one and give him half of the lowest recommended human dose, he said it is pretty hard to OD on it anyway. Need to pop in to a health food store or pharmacy and see whats on offer. Thanks for the advice. No chance today as at work till after 6pm grrrrrrrrrrrr. Wish I had a holiday too :D:D Hard to fit in all this Flynn stuff and go to work!! But something has to pay all his bills :eek:

Have a good night x

[SoggyDoggy]

Hmmnn, all this talk about probiotics everywhere makes me wonder if I should try some on the boys too. They are still loving the ziwipeak, though not scoffing it as fast as that first day, but the other end just aint pretty, in either one at the moment :o I know it can take a few days to adjust but phew! cleaning up the back lawn is a nightmare! That's the only thing that has changed in their diet too, so I guess I'll give it another week, then if things don't "come together" so to speak, I might have to consider something else again.

I swore I would never become my mother and grandmother, obsessed with bowel movements :eek: And what's more, I don't know if its worse that it's not even my own i'm obsessing about :p:p

[Trixie]

Naomi,
It's so true isn't it?? Bowel movement talk gets so ordinary when you age! My kids cannot believe when my husband and I report Trixie's "poop conditions" to each other. I tell them "just wait--you'll do this one day too--for your babies and your pets!!" :D haha. They don't want to hear it!!
Barbara :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Someone needs to make shirts that read "Poop Patrol"! :p

[Fellasmom]

Hi Naomi
Just wanted to say thank you for all your kindness and support after losing Fella.I've just beginning to read thru all of your posts and enjoyed reading the "Fraser" stories!!:).It is so unfair that their lives are so short compared to ours.Everyday we have with them is truly a gift.Lots of love and hugs to you and Fraser!
Love,
Patty

[Trish]

Ohhh I would buy a "Poop Patrol" tshirt Leslie! You should get some done and sell them to us all haha! Make mine a nightie as I always seem to be dashing out at night to check what he is up to!

Hi Naomi, Fraser, Oscar.... is this your last weekend before going back to school? Seems to have gone very fast, so hope things will be alright with the boys when you head back. You should get one of those video monitors so you can keep an eye on them while your away.

I need to book my day off on 22nd to go on our long drive to pet hospital for his scan. I really do not want to go, because I think like you if they find anything else I do not think I would put him through anymore surgery, and maybe living in ignorance is better than actually knowing something is lurking. A friend is taking the day off to come with me, so we will have a nice road trip. I will pack snacks for all of us and Flynny, so we will have a nice day, apart from him hating the long journey.

Might see you on later, hope your last few days have been enjoyable! xx

[SoggyDoggy]

Yes, back to work again on Monday and sooooooooooo not looking forward to it.:( Would much rather spend the days with the boys. Over the last two weeks, I think I have only been out twice without them coming with me, and each time was for no more than 2 hours, so they are going to be very unhappy with me on monday afternoon. At least I know that they sleep when I'm not around, and Fraser does need o catch up a bit. He follows me, EVERYWHERE! If I leave the room for two seconds, even when I say STAY, he is up and on my heels. And yet I bet on monday, when I get home, he greets me madly, then ignores me for the rest of the night. Bit of a grudge holder is our boy. :p

Oh well, story time.

Have been giving the boys nightly treats for a while now, either pigs ear chews or greenies (toothbrush shaped natural chews that double as breath fresheners too) and Oz as soon as he gets his, grabs it and runs away to start chomping. Fraser takes his with a resigned "Oh alright" kind of attitude, then proceeds to lie down and guard it. Only when Oscar has finished his and comes looking for more does Fraser then consider it might be time to start having a chew - but only if Oz hovers and watches him. He's a real tease! He takes his time too, and you can just hear him, "Oooo, yummy" I bet he'd wave it in Ozzie's face if he could.

Last night we went to my sisters for dinner, and she gave them all a greenie too. He did the exact same thing to her dog Gracie too. Poor Gracie, stood by licking her chops and drooling (she finished hers in under 30 seconds - super strong jaws) and Fraser was just happy slowly chewing on his while everybody else stood by and watched. And yet, if you try and take it off him, even if he's not chewing it, he will snarl at you. It's the only thing he does it for. You can take his toy, his dinner, do whatever you want to him, but don't you take his chewie! :eek::eek:

On a different note, check out Oz's new socks in the album. He's very happy with them :D

[molly muffin]

Frasier is such a hoot. A flirt And a tease! At least he makes them all drool equally, no favorites. You all must suffer!
Oscar is so cute in his socks!! Rockn' sockn' Oscar

Enjoy the weekend
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Ohhh Fraser is like my brother, if we got lollies when we were young I would gobble them down and he would put his away then torture me with them... mean boys!!

I was at a friends this arvo, she has a new puppy so cute. I took doggy treats and toys over. She gave Flynn this kong toy that was too big for her pup... I just put his biccies in there and he has been rolling it around the floor for about an hour now, feel a bit mean but it sure has kept him busy and using his brain haha

OH and I thought of you and Fraser while I was there, there is this cute little boy puppy a silky tzu... and they played like mad things and then Flynn started humping it!!! Gawd I was so embarrased. So I have decided Flynn is a homopeadophile!! Nasty boy!

[SoggyDoggy]

Lol, for years I thought Fraser was gay. He was always interested in the boys, and has always liked men more than women. It's only in his dotage that he has started to chase the girls. Funny boy. (He still prefers men though)

[Budsters Mom]

Hey, I don't judge! Whatever makes him happy! LOL:D
Hugs,
Kathy and Buddy:cool:

[Trish]

Hi Naomi

How are the boys dealing with you back at work? Hope all going smoothly and they are doing good and you are not to bummed about having to go back to school! Did you have a trip coming up to Singapore again this year?

Love the socks pic!
xx

[SoggyDoggy]

Well apart from me being tired, the boys are both doing well. I really thought they might miss me being gone during the day, but apparently they must have just slept for 2 days straight. They are both full of energy and have been playing together tonight, which is really rare. Apparently they haven't missed me a bit :o (Except for when they scream the house down when I get home anyway.)

We have some pretty strong storms coming through tonight and tomorrow, so I am hoping I get some sleep tonight. Fraser has decided that lightening is worse than thunder these days (mind you he has gone a little deaf in recent years so that may explain why) but even if there is no thunder or rain, and just lightening he has panic attacks - wants to sit on my head when I'm trying to sleep and drools and shakes like nothing on earth. If you add thunder and heavy rain to the mix, along with gale force winds, then he keeps it up for hours. Yay, good night ahead of me I think. :( Tommorrow he has been booked in for day care at Nanna's. Will drop them both off before work so she can have him for the day. Just as long as she gets to put up with some of the storm behaviour too :D

Trish - yes there is another Singapore trip coming up in July. I'm just praying that nothing goes wrong (or any more wrong) before then or during that week. Don't know what I'd do and I don't think cancelling is an option when 45 others (40 of which are kids) are involved too.

Meanwhile, photo shoot is coming up on saturday! Looking forward to that. Just hope boys will be bright and playful that day too. So cute when they smile :D

[Trish]

Ha, funny aren't they! I ask Mum if he misses me when I am gone, but nup! As long as they are fed, watered and have a cosy place to nap they are pretty happy in their golden years!!

Will Fraser go under the blankets so he can't see the lightning? Could stuff him under with a few snacks then he might not be able to see or hear, but hopefully still able to breathe :D:D I actually saw one of those thunder shirts in out pet store last weekend, quite a few have mentioned them on here. Flynn not bothered by storms, snores through them but might be worth a try with Fraser?

Hope everyone behaves on your trip away, I think I have a phobia about travelling now! Might have to become a hermit, which is a shame as I LOVE to travel. Maybe I can get away for a quick trip when everyone is diagnosed and behaving! My friends in Sydney that I missed out on seeing are demanding I reschedule asap! But not likely for a few months at least. At least I heard today the insurance company is refunding the extra I had to pay to get home to Mum from Melbourne, so that will be a little cash injection prior to Flynn's trip to the pet hospital in a couple of weeks.

Hope the storm is not too bad tonight and you all get some sleep to recharge the batteries xxx

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Naomi,:)
Thunderstorms terrify Buddy. He can make himself so anxious that he becomes physically ill. He freezes up and shakes. It is very sad. A friend of mine recommended the thunder shirt. She told me that it was very calming for the dog. Once a thunderstorm starts, and we don't get many here, I end up sitting with Buddy in on the bathroom floor with the fan running, somtimes for hours! He calms down once he can no longer hear the thunder or see any flashes of lightning. That bathroom does not have any outside windows. I bought a thunder shirt and tried it. It does help to calm Buddy down quite a bit, but there is a process. It needs to used before a thunderstorm occurs and linked to fun activity, like a trip to the park .If you only use it when you have a thunderstorm, then it doesn't work as well.

Hugs to you and the boys,
Kathy and Buddy:cool:

[SoggyDoggy]

Hey guys!

Thanks for the infor re the thunder shirt. I looked at one of these last year for him, but he categorically will not wear anything over his body at all. Even a jacket or something to keep him warm in winter is chewed and wriggled out of, so it's actually more distressing for him and he doesn't like a blanket thrown over him either. he would rather snuggle and share body heat, which as lovely as that is, does give me a sore back at times (cause he likes to be in the crook of your back) The good thing is that he is a bit deaf these days, so if we do get thunder, I just turn the tv up louder, then he thinks it is the sub woofer on the tv. As for the lightening, last time we had some, I ended up leaving every light in the house on, then he could see it and panic ended. He's not the brightest bulb in the box sometimes, but he is loveable :)

The storms the other night didn't even bring thunder or lightening though so we got off really lightly. There as a few minutes of thunder last night but I fooled him through that patch and he settled pretty easy, just hope it stays easy through winter. That would be nice :)

Meanwhile oday he got it into his head that his foot was sore, has been liking it madly, limping and hoping on it at the park. He ran/fast hopped back to the car (some 200 metres away) and demanded to come home. Got him home, sprayed his foot with cortavance then he insisted that he couldn't get comfortable and proceeded to try no less than 15 different spots and positions to lie in within a 5 minute time frame. :rolleyes: He finally got comfortable (after I arranged him) and has since gone to sleep, completely forgetting about his foot. He is such a flower at times. :p I'll wake him up in a minute to go and have dinner, what's the bet there is no issue with his foot now? :rolleyes:

[addy]

Koko does that foot thing too, what is up with that? A few times we took him to the ER and they could not find anything wrong and then he would come home and be fine.:rolleyes:

Sometimes, though, he does get a poke in his foot from a sharp pine tree needle and that will set him off crying and limping and carrying on.

Maybe Fraser got a jab from something outside that hurt his paw for a bit. That seems to be what is happening with Koko and he is not a brave boy about it but he is such a sweet, mild tempered pup, he does not handle hurts well.;)


(((((hugs))))))))))))