My Pug Scoop (Precious Scoop has passed... )

[scoora]

Hi everyone,
I have been reading some posts on here for a couple of weeks. Seems like a great place with wonderful people. I don't have much time right now to get into details. I just wanted to get started. I feel so helpless and frustrated. I cry so much. My heart is breaking for my Scoop. He's had diabetes for 2 years and was diagnosed on 9/20 with Cushing's. Although we thought that might be the case a couple of months ago. Things started in July with infections in both ears and both eyes. Then came Vestibular disease, he still has the head tilt. He had an ulcerated ear. So much, it makes my head spin. Scoop will be 12 on 10/7. Last week he weighed 18.8lb. He was holding steady between 21 and 22lb since he started with diabetes until a couple of months ago. So he has lost weight, not typical of Cushing's. Vet says could be all the muscle wasting, which looks like a lot on him or another problem. I wish they could find out for sure. I have been so upset lately. It's so hard to see how much he has changed in a couple of months. The Vet says well he is an old dog and the diabetes might have just worn him down and the Cushing's hit hard. The Vets keep telling me to prepare myself. Scoop started 20mg Vetoryl last Thursday. I'm hoping it will help but I might be asking for a miracle. I was wondering if others have experience with diabetes and Cushing's? The Vet said it is hard to control both. Thanks everyone for listening. I'll be checking back tonight.
Vicki

[Steph n' Ella]

Yes...there are a few here who are managing Cushings and diabetes. There is a sister forum to this one that deals with just diabetes.

Hopefully you have copies of all of lil Scoop's blood work and tests. Post them here ASAP. Cushings is very often misdiagnosed with false positives. If the diabetes was uncontolled during testing for Cushings, that result is probably not a good one to go on.

Hopefully you have been keeping a close eye on Scoop! Did your vet give you any prednisone incase his cortisol drops too low? Did he/she tell you want to watch out for?

Glad you are here and can't wait for more details on Scoop! Love that name!

[Squirt's Mom]

Yes, if you are not a member already, please do register at k9diabetes.com. They are our sister site and the experts on diabetes.

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum

I'm glad you found us and am sure our members who are dealing with both conditions will be along soon to share with you.

Welcome to you and Scoop!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Hello and welcome from me too. Absolutely recommend joining the k9diabestes forum mentioned. They are very well versed in dealing with the diabetes/cushings mixture. It is good to be a part of both.
All those things going on, it is possible that the cortisol would be high as a result of those. What other symptoms have you seen of cushings? Was an LDDS test done also?
Poor little thing. It is so hard to see them lose weight and not be themselves.
We are practically the owners of the Kleenex brand around here by now. So very well versed in tears and share them freely. If you hurt, we hurt. It is that simple.
So when you have time, lets get some test results posted showing the abnormals and talk about the cushings. Also what kind of BG numbers are you seeing. Is the diabetes under control?

Hang in there!
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[scoora]

Hi and thanks to everyone for the welcome.
Steph n' Ella-my daughter picked the name Scoop. Scoop is a fawn Pug. I also have a black Pug. His name is Raleigh. He is 3 years younger than Scoop.
Yes, I have been watching him, like a hawk. I do have prednisone and the vet did say what to watch for. I have been asking her lots of questions.
I will definitely check out the diabetes site. Scoop's diabetes have not been much trouble the past 2 years. He's done well till this July. He had surgery Aug 2011 to remove some lumps. He has had mast cell tumors in the past. After the surgery the hair on his chest never grew back. On his side and leg the hair grew back but not totally. You can still see where he was shaved. He has had what the vet calls a rats tail for a year or two. He also has hair missing at the top of his back and the skin is dark there. His ALK PHOS levels have been going up the last couple of years. This July it was 1712. A couple of years ago the vet did UCCR test because of his levels going up but was neg. He had the LDDS test done 9/20/12. The vet then did an ultra sound. I asked her if she was sure he has Cushing's. She said yes. He had a BG curve done on 8/30 so that was before he had the Cushing's test. The vet said she was happy with it. He is having an ACTH done on Monday and the vet wants to spot check his BG. He has the excessive drinking and urinating, couple of accidents in the house, and all he wants to do is eat. I have the results from his blood work in July. There are quite a few out of range. I will post tomorrow night when I have more time.The LDDS results were:
Pre Dex 12.1 Ref range 1.0-6.0 ug/dl
Post 4 HR DEX 8.7 Ref range less than 1.5 ug/dl
Post 8 HR DEX 11.1 Ref range less than 1.5 ug/dl
Further testing required to differentiate adrenal tumor from pituitary-dependent hyperadrenocorticism.
On the ultrasound his liver is enlarged and both his adrenal glands are enlarged but normal shape. L adrenal 30x10mm R adrenal 23x12mm
His liver has a spot of some kind but she said she didn't know what it was unless a biopsy is done. I will get the blood test results posted tomorrow night. Got to get to bed. Thanks everyone for all your help and concern and especially the love.

[scoora]

Hi-I have Scoop's blood test results. They are from 7/17/12. These are the ones that are high or low.

Test- Result, Reference Range

ALK. PHOSPHATASE - 1712, 10-150 U/L
ALT(SGPT) - 392, 5-107 U/L
AST(SGOT) - 64, 5-55 U/L
GGT- 21, 0-14 U/L
AMYLASE- 424, 450-1240 U/L
CHOLESTEROL- 513, 112-328 mg/dl
GLUCOSE- 190, 60-125 mg/dl
CHLORIDE- 101, 105-115 mEq/L
ANION GAP- 27, 12-24 mEq/L
T4- 0.5, 1.0-4.0 ug/dl
HGB- 19.1, 12-18 g/dl
HCT- 57.3, 37-55%


Thank you.
Vicki

[Steph n' Ella]

Well...what really sticks out to me is the T-4. That measures thryroid function. At .5, Scoop is hypothyroid. Hypothyroidism (low thyroid) is comon in dogs with Cushings. It is also one of the endocrine disorders that can give you a false positive on a LDDS test and other Cushings testing. There is a very simple solution for hypothyroidism and this is synthetic replacement hormones that are readily available and cheap.

I would talk to your vet and request a test called a "Free T-4." This is a blood test that will tell you more information about your Scoop's thyroid hormone levels. These results can tell you and your vet if the low thyroid is primary or secondary because of Cushings. After the test, hopefully your vet will perscribe Scoop some thyroid medicine. My Ella is on Soloxine.

A rule of thumb is .01 mg of hormone per pound 2 times a day. For example Ella is 29 pounds and she is on .25 mg of soloxine 2 times a day. The first vet that I worked with didn't do the calculation and put her on .5 mg and that threw her to the other end of the scale into a hyperthyroid state!

Once on the synthetic hormones, my Ella perked up right away. Before treatment, she was very lethargic, had very oily/waxy skin, and hair loss. Hopefully Scoop's issues are all related to thyroid problems (oh and the diabetes) and he will improve quickly! AND NO Cushings!

[scoora]

Steph n' Ella-I wish that were the case. The vet and I did talk about a test for the low t4 but she thinks the low results are caused from the Cushing's. She said if I want she would do the test but she would rather wait and do a repeat of all the bloodwork once he's been on the Vetoryl for a while. I wish it would be something simpler than Cushing's. There is a connection between hypothyroidism and Vestibular disease and since Scoop still has the head tilt from when he had it I thought maybe it was that. The vet doesn't think so. The vet is going to do a test that will show if he has a ruptured eardrum. That could be causing the head tilt. The poor little guy has trouble keeping his balance. I don't know if it's the arthritis in his front legs, the head tilt, he's losing his sight from cataracts, the muscle wasting or all the above.
Thanks for the suggestion. They are always appreciated.

Vicki

[Squirt's Mom]

ALK. PHOSPHATASE - 1712, 10-150 U/L
ALT(SGPT) - 392, 5-107 U/L
AST(SGOT) - 64, 5-55 U/L
GGT- 21, 0-14 U/L

GLUCOSE- 190, 60-125 mg/dl

Mornin,

What I see are the liver values - the ALK, ALT, AST, and GGT - are ALL elevated. To me that is a clear sign the liver needs to be more closely looked at to be sure there is no primary hepatic disease going on before starting treatment. IF she does have liver disease, this could skew the tests causing false positive and Trilostane (Vetoryl) is not recommended for pups with liver disease so you want to know before you are given Trilo (Vetoryl).

I also see elevated glucose. Did your vet do a urine check to verify this is not diabetes rearing its head?

I really, really, really, really wish I, or someone else here, could explain these results but I don't have the knowledge. :(

How is Scoop doing this morning?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Hi Leslie and the gang,
Thanks for asking how Scoop is doing today. He had a pretty good day today considering all his problems. Today is Scoop's birthday. "Happy Birthday to my Scoop". He turned 12 today. He had a little something special today and he enjoyed it very much.
I'll have to bring the liver levels up to the vet. You would think she would know about that about the liver. She also saw a spot on his liver when she did the ultra sound.
Scoop has been on Vetoryl for 10 days.
Scoop has had diabetes for 2 years.
My "baby doll" sure has his share of health problems.
Thanks for all your concern.
Vicki

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vicki,

I should have known Scoop was already diabetic. :o I wonder about my mind these days! :p

10 days, huh? Then Scoop will be having an ACTH sometime in the next four days, or should be anyway, so let us know how that goes and what the results are when you get them.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

:D:D Happy 10th Birthday, Scoop!! :D:D

[Boriss McCall]

Happy Late Birthday to Scoop! :D

[scoora]

Leslie and Amy-Thank you for the birthday wishes for Scoop!
Leslie-Scoop had his ACTH test today. Will find out results tomorrow. The amount of water he has been drinking has gotten a little better lately but not where it should be but when he comes home after a stay at the vet's he just drinks and drinks. He seems to have finally settled down.
I asked at the vet's today for a copy of my other dog, Raleigh, bloodwork results from March. With all this going on with Scoop I want to keep an eye on Raleigh's levels. What a difference between his and Scoop's.
Vicki

[scoora]

I just heard from the vet. Scoop's dose of Vetoryl must go up to 30 mg a day. His first ACTH test results are:

Pre-6.2
13.5-1 hour
16.7- 2 hour
The vet said normally they only do one post draw but the lab she talked to suggested she do a 1 hour and a 2 hour.

I had a situation over the weekend about the fasting or not before his ACTH on Monday and I couldn't talk to his vet till Monday morning after he would have eaten. I read the advise on the board and also checked Dechra's website. They have under either Q&A of FAQ, don't remember which, that the morning of the test a small amount of food should be given. I also sent an email to Dechra but because it was Saturday I figured I wouldn't hear from them. So Monday morning I gave Scoop about half of his food and half his amount of insulin. The vet called me at 8:30 and I explained everything to her. She said she did not want me to fast him so she thought what I did was OK. She called the lab they deal with and they said that was fine what I gave him. At 9:30 that morning I got a call from a registered vet tech from Dechra and said she wanted to get a hold of me seeing he was scheduled for his test that morning. She said what they suggest is to give about 1/4 amount of normal food but she said what I did was fine. So Dechra, the vet and the lab all agreed what I gave him was OK. The vet said the lab told her they should be coming out with some paper or something for the vets about the non-fasting thing. The lady at Dechra was so nice and took time to talk to me. Scoop now has a case number in case I have to get in touch with them again.

Scoop has done a lot of trembling today so far. Does anyone have any experience with their babies trembling? The vet also thinks Scoop is starting with that skin problem that's associated with Cushing's. I've heard about it but not sure of the name. I will be looking it up later. Anyone with experience with that? Have to get ready for work this afternoon. I hate to leave Scoop but have to. At least the day he will get his increased dose I will be home. So nervous about the increase but his numbers aren't good so hope it helps. I'm just so afraid with his diabetes and Cushing's. The vet did a BG spot check to make sure it wasn't low because of the Vetoryl. It was pretty high but there were a lot of things going on that could have contributed to it. I'm so scared my Scoop has too many problems working against him. He is such a good boy and doesn't deseve this.
Love my Scoop and my Raleigh!
Sorry this is so long. Gotta go.
Thanks for any help, input, suggestions from anyone.
Vicki

[scoora]

Hi-hope everyone had a good day.
ACTH:
Pre:6.2
Post 1 hour: 13.5
Post 2 hour: 16.7
Scoop's vet said they like to see the numbers below 9. I'm assuming she was referring to the post results. Is that the number that all vets go by? Don't know too much about the Acth test and the results. Also, does anyone know what the high end dose for Vetoryl is for 18 lbs? One more thing. Scoop's water consumption has gone down a little recently but today it was down to 21oz. Maybe just one good day? The vet told me if he drinks more than 28oz that's too much. So it's good it is lower but something just bugs me. Could it mean that his cortisol level could have dropped since he had his ACTH done on Monday? If so, could there be a problem with increasing his Vetoryl from 20mg to 30mg. The increase will be taking place on Friday.
Thanks for any info anyone can give me. Every change I see just makes me think and worry! Now with the possibility of the calcinosis cutis, something else to worry about. I've read some posts on here about it. Sounds like it isn't easily taken care of but I guess that figures because Cushing's isn't easy.
Thanks again for any help or info anyone gave give me.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Hello to you, and hope Scoop does well on the new dose. I am new on here too , but can tell you Tipper weighs a little shy of 17 lbs and she takes 10mg of Vetoryl in the morning, and 10mg at night. Dechra told me this was the correct dose for her. We started her out at only 10mg a day, as I wanted to go slowly because Tipper can have bad reactions to things. The split dose has definetly helped curtail her symptoms that would return in the evening. My vet is waiting for the vet from Dechra to call back about the tremors, and twitching she is doing at night. He went straight to the vet as the people answering the calls there seem to be putting out conflicting information about this. This disease is awful, and we need to get together to get some funding and research done on it, as it is affecting many animals. I would never have thought this many animals could be suffering from this disease. I wish you and Scoop the best.

[scoora]

Hi Tipper's Mom,
Thanks. I'm so nervous about the increase. I agree with you. This disease is awful. I would have never thought so many pups would be so sick from it. It's so heartbreaking. I'm crying now while typing. My Scoop is laying here by me and is trembling. Sometimes he trembles so much sometimes and sometimes it's just a little. His is mostly during the day. I don't see much of it in the evening or at night. His is on a morning only dose. The vet and I talked about splitting his dose because I read diabetic dogs are better with a split dose but we haven't done it yet. Now I have 30mg pills and you can't split them. I would be VERY interested in hearing what your vet finds out from the Dechra vet about the trembling. Please let us know when you hear anything. My vet thinks Scoop might have something else going on besides Cushing's and diabetes so maybe that could be contributing to the trembling. She told me trembling is not a side affect. Sure wish I had some answers. It is so hard to not know what is going on. I spoke to a registered vet tech from Dechra and mentioned the trembling. She told me they don't know for sure if the trembling is related to Vetoryl but they do mention it as a possible side affect. I think that's how she put. No definite answer. So please let us know what you find out.
Thanks for the well wishes. I wish the same for you and Tipper, all the best. The idea about funding for research is a great idea. I hope someday it can be cured and all the pups and parents don't have to deal with it.
Love and hugs to you and everyone out there.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[lulusmom]

Hi Vicki,

I believe we had another member recently who spoke to a rep at Dechra who told her that muscle tic are not a side effect of Vetoryl. It most certainly is. See my reponse below:


I'm very surprised that the rep you spoke with at Dechra said it isn't the drug. Muscle tremors are absolutely a side effect of Vetoryl so the rep is either ignorant of the drug he's supposed know about or he is splitting hairs and defining muscle tics and tremors as two different involuntary muscle movement. We have had many members report that their dogs have muscle tremors/tics, primarily when they are at rest.

[scoora]

Thanks lulusmom.
It's so hard to watch them tremble like that. I put my hand on him and just feel his body shaking. It's terrible.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Harley PoMMom]

Don't know too much about the Acth test and the results.

The ACTH stimulation test is a simple and safe screening test in the diagnostic evaluation of dogs with hyperadrenocorticism (Cushing's syndrome). It's also used to monitor dogs on medical therapy (e.g., Lysodren, Trilostane, etc.). Simply put, it's a test of adrenal gland reserve; it checks how the adrenal glands respond to a certain hormone. This hormone is called adrenocorticotrophic hormone, also known as ACTH. ACTH is made in the pituitary gland (pea-sized structure located at the base of the brain) and travels through the bloodstream to the adrenal glands (small paired glands buried in fat in the front of each kidney).


An ACTH stim test contains synthetic forms of ACTH (Adrenocorticotrophic Hormone) such as Cortrosyn, ACTHAR gel, or another agent called Synacthen. ACTH and the synthetic forms of ACTH stimulate the adrenal glands to release Cortisone.

In an ACTH stim test a sample of blood is taken from an animal (the "pre-level"); then the animal is injected with a small amount of the synthetic form of ACTH to stimulate the adrenal glands to produce Cortisol.


A second blood test is taken a hour later (the "post-level") to measure the change in circulating cortisol. The results of the two blood tests are then compared.

With Lysodren, ideally, one wants the pre and post number between 1-5 ug/dl. With Trilostane, goal of therapy is having pre and post between 1.45-5.4 ug/dl and a post as high as 9.1 ug/dl as long as clinical symptoms are controlled.

Hope that helps :)

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Someone here once described the ACTH like this - imagine a sponge full of water being squeezed to see how much water was in there. This is what the ACTH is doing with the adrenals - not squeezing them literally but causing them to empty as much cortisol as they can. The cortisol flowing in the bloodstream is measured before the stim agent it given (the first or pre number) then measured again after the stim agent has made the adrenals empty (the last or post number). The post number is the most important and the one we want to see within those ranges Lori gave.

You're doing good! Keep asking questions! :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

How long was your dog on the meds before the trembling started? I am wondering when I will start seeing that or if. :(

I know that has to be hard to see. I hope it is a symptom that will go away for your sweet pup.

[labblab]

I just wanted to stop by to add a couple of thoughts since my own Cushpup was one who also suffered from weird tremoring episodes. Although I do not believe he was cold or in pain, it looked as though he was shivering across his shoulders. It happened most often when he was resting or even asleep.

In our case, I first noticed the tremors a couple of weeks prior to his Cushing's diagnosis. He was treated several years ago when the protocol called for higher doses of trilostane, and he was indeed started off on a very hefty dose. The tremoring became much more frequent and obvious shortly after starting on the trilo. It remained for a couple of months, but then stopped altogether.

We were never sure as to the cause. As the Dechra rep stated, tremoring is now listed as a possible side effect to treatment. However, I think her answer is correct in that nobody knows whether it is actually caused by the drug itself or whether it is related to some as-yet-unknown mechanism associated with the Cushing's syndrome.

Since my own dog started the tremoring prior to the trilo, I can't solely blame the drug. However, the tremors did worsen right after he started on it. FWIW, his cortisol level was sky-high per his diagnostic ACTH test, and I have always speculated that the tremoring was related to the cortisol level itself -- maybe rapid changes in either direction. I've especially thought this might be true because we have had Lysodren parents report the same thing.

Anyway, I don't think the mechanism is yet understood either by Dechra or anybody else. But I just wanted you to know that other members have reported the same types of experiences.

Marianne

[scoora]

Lori and Leslie-Wow.Thank you for all that great info. It sure helps me to understand what the ACTH test is about.

Amy-Thank you. I too hope it is a symptom that will go away. Scoop had a little bit of trembling in his back legs before he started the Vetoryl. I thought it might have something to do with his muscle loss. Scoop lost quite a bit of muscle but what do I know. After starting Vetoryl he has a lot more trembling and it is now in the front and the back.

Marianne-That sounds so much like Scoop but his started in his back legs but now has trembling in front and back legs. I have only seen it once while he was standing. All the rest of the time he is either sleeping or resting. Scoop's happens during the day. I don't see it at night. Vetoryl only stays in the body, what, 8 or 12 hours? So like you said, Marianne, maybe at night the cortisol has leveled off and during the day it is going down or rising back up. That's very interesting.

Thank you everyone for all the great information and for all the help.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Vicki: are you testing Scoop's blood sugar? Jenny had some serious low blood sugar incidents before I started testing and the only symptom was back leg trembling. I thought it was the Cushings, took her in and her blood sugar was 40 :eek:.

As his cortisol goes down you'll need less insulin. Just a thought. hang in there. Judi

[scoora]

Judi-WOW! 40 That's scary. Scoop has had some spot BG checks since he started on Vetoryl. His have been pretty high. My husband and I tried to test Scoop at home after he was first diagnosed 2 years ago with diabetes. We were not successful. We tried and tried. I sure wish we could do it at home. Then I could check it more often but I have to take him to the vet's to get it checked. Sometimes they use our meter and then it doesn't cost so much. He had a spot check when he had his ACTH done and it was high. Scoop's vet went to a conference in Atlantic City this past week. She spoke to an endocrinologist from California and talked to him about Scoop. He suggested that Scoop's insulin be cut in half. He's been getting 10 units and he said to cut it to 5 units. She told him he has been testing high but he said he would recommend to cut it. I don't understand why you would cut the insulin if his sugar isn't low. It really makes me nervous but we are going to try it starting Monday morning and do a spot check on Wednesday.
Thanks for the suggestion Judi.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I have never understood it very well but over on the diabetes forum they talk about Somagyi rebound

http://diabetes.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/g/somogyi.htm

basically, I think if a dog is getting too much insulin, their body overreacts causing huge highs and huge lows. Since Scoop has been a stinker about testing you could be missing the lows.

Just a guess but this may be what your vet is looking for.

Have they done some curves? did you post them on the diabetes forum?

I really struggled getting Jenny to cooperate for home blood testing. It was a 3 week long bloody battle. Now? She is much better for her testing than she is for her shot. So, if you ever get your courage up and want to try again, I recommend it.

Please keep us posted! hugs, Judi

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vicki,

Did you register at the diabetes site? They will be able to help you most with this situation so I would sure be talking to them before starting the half-dose. We have a saying around here - Listen to your gut because no one knows YOUR baby like YOU. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Judi and Leslie-Thanks so much. It is so great to be able to talk to others who have experience and knowledge about all this. There is so much going on with Scoop, it is so scary. I trust Scoop's vet and the specialist she talked to seemed to impress her. When we started this I told her if she's not comfortable with this, then she should refer Scoop to a specialist. She said she would if she feels uncomfortable with things.

Judi-I have never heard of Somagyi rebound. I will be checking it out when I am done here. What you said makes sense to me. A curve was done Aug. 30. The vet wanted to make sure his diabetes wasn't causing his problems before he got tested for Cushing's. She was happy with the curve. What you said has me thinking. Up till now there wasn't much reason to worry about testing at home. He was doing so good with his diabetes. He is such a good boy about getting his shot but I don't think he will put up with the testing. Where do you prick Jenny at to get the sample? We were shown to do it in the ear but at home we couldn't get any blood from there so I had watched videos about doing it on the inside lip. Scoop did not like that at all. He even snapped but did not bite at my husband. I took him to the vet's and she had a hard time with it too. Since Scoop has been sick he doesn't like when I go in his mouth. So it would be very difficult to get blood. It would probably be a good idea to do another curve. I feel so bad to have to leave Scoop at the vet's all day. He gets so nervous when we are on the way to the vet's. I had to take him on Saturday. He has a nasty sore under his front "underarm". He shook so much in the car.

Leslie-Yes, I did register at the diabetes site. I just seem to spend my time here. I feel like I have so much to learn about Cushing's but looks like there are things to learn over there too.

The vet told me when we started with the Cushing's meds that this will not be easy with dealing with both plus Scoop has a head tilt yet from Vestibular Disease. The vet's been trying to find out if he has a ruptured eardrum. She talked to a neurologist about the possibility the pit tumor could be causing the head tilt. His cataracts from the diabetes are bad. We have to watch when we take him out, he has trouble with steps and the uneven yard. He's good in the house but he walks with his head tilted. Sorry to go on and on but it is so hard to see Scoop now compared to the beginning of July before all his problems started. I love him so much and it hurts so much to see what has happened to him.

Thanks so much for listening and all your help and suggestions.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

personally, I think the fact that your vet wants to back off the insulin to see if Scoop is rebounding is a really positive sign that your vet is open minded and has experience with diabetes.

So many vets just keep increasing the dose and overshoot the mark, causing problems for the dog.

I took Jenny to the vet twice and the vet tech and I couldn't get blood from her anywhere. Her carpal pad, her ear. She is really good at the vet but was a first class jerk about testing. The vet tech could not believe that was "sweet" Jenny LOL

so, we do the upper lip by the canine teeth. She hated it at first and would fight kick, it was awful. I started practice testing her. I did everything except actually poke her with the lancet. And I gave her a tiny piece of chicken jerky only after her test which she adored so bribery was a key factor.

Jenny was always good about her shot but a few months ago she decided she hates the shot. So now she is an angel for the lip test and we've been using the magic jerky on the shot (it's working, thank goodness for food treats)

Vet techs don't test the way we do at home, that is why they can't help us as much as we'd like. Some people test on the upper back right next to the tail, and some people warm the ear up and get some blood that way.

Poor Scoop, I'm sorry he is so stressed. Hang in there. I was an emotional wreck last year and now I've stepped back and just focus on whether Jenny is happy and wants to play. If she is, I"m good. Her cortisol is too low and her blood sugar can be too high but she is happy and I'm doing the best I can.

So are you. hugs, Judi

I just want to add that I am not one of the experienced diabetes people good at analyzing curves and insulin needs. I just know what has and hasn't worked for my Jenny. If you have time come on back to the K9 diabetes forum. Did you post his last curve?

[scoora]

Judi- I was just on the diabetes site and wrote to some length but forgot to post his curve. I will try to remember to do that tomorrow night. I think he should have another curve done but maybe the vet will suggest it if she sees that Scoop is able to stay at the lower dose. I had forgotten she upped his dose from 9-10 2x a day back over the summer. What you said about the vet wanting to back off the insulin makes me feel better. That is a good point.
Thank you for telling me about Jenny. It does take some work. We did try and not just once. When Scoop was first diagnosed the tech was able to get blood from his ear when she showed us but when we tried it we couldn't get blood. We tried the carpal pad and that didn't work then the upper lip. Scoop hated that! I took him to the vet's and the vet herself had trouble getting it like we would. So we gave up.

Sounds like you are doing a great job with Jenny. I appreciate all your thoughts and help. Just hearing about others and what you think really helps.

Scoop has other problems and he is not the same dog he was in the beginning of the summer but he still has his "happy tail" and loves his ears and belly rubbed and gets excited when someone comes home and will lick his toys and he loves to eat and get treats and he is loved sooooo much. Thanks again.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

Isn't it wonderful to have that happy tail happening. It's always such a joy when you know that they are going through so much to see them happy and playing.

Sharlene

[scoora]

Sharlene-It sure is a wonderful thing to see!

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Is anyone dealing with calcinosis cutis right now? A couple of weeks ago Soop's vet said she thought he was starting with it at the top of his back. I have seen a change in his skin in that area. At first the area had lost hair and the skin was dark. It looked a lot like the area on his tail that has looked like that for a couple of years. Then the area started to look like it had bumps on the skin. Today something happened that bothers me. Scoop has a sore under his left front "underarm" area. I took him to the vet on Saturday and the vet(not his regular one) gave him an antibiotic shot and said to use a t-shirt when taking him out. Today Scoop went to see his regular vet for a spot BG check and she looked at the sore spot. She put something on it and then wrapped it. The wrap went across his back and when we got home after making another stop first, I noticed his calcinosis cutis spot sticking out of the top of the wrap. There is a big red sore spot in the middle of it. The wrap must have rubbed it open. I have been very careful with that area. Maybe it would have happened anyway, I don't know but I am upset because from what I've read calcinosis cutis is impossible to treat. I read some of the posts from last year and earlier this year but I haven't seen anything recent. I would appreciate any advise anyone has on calcinosis cutis. Seems like they have to suffer with it and hopefully months down the road it might get better. I'm so worried about my Scoop. It seems like nothing is going right for him.
Thanks for any help.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vicki,

Here are some links about DMSO, which can be used to treat calcinosis cutis. I thought I had some links about CC itself but don't seem to find them. If you will use the "search" feature in the upper white bar you can enter "calcinosis cutis" and find threads about this condition and how others approached treatment. It seems we have some current members dealing with this now.

CC is pretty much a dead give away for Cushing's - dogs just don't get CC unless they have Cushing's. A dermatologist is the very best thing you can do for Scoop if this is what he is developing.

Keep in touch and let us know how he is doing.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

http://www.dmso.org/

http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm

http://www.herpes-coldsores.com/dmso.pdf

http://www.bevanpotter.com/DMSO_bp.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1124535

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1249191

http://books.google.com/books?id=CvHazimbX5oC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=dmso+and+calcinosis+cutis&source=bl&ots=DHk1CN2Ncd&sig=wrVXZXaL3D2IvLT-Xc7MIpwCmcs&hl=en&ei=VGvhTe_6Jsaltwf13bX9Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dmso%20and%20calcinosis%20cutis&f=false

[lulusmom]

Hi Vicki,

If your vet has not confirmed a calcinosis cutis diagnosis by way of appropriate testing, that should be done so that you know exactly what you are dealing with. If it's not CC, treatment can be totally different. We have a few members who have dealt with it, including one of our moderators, Angela. I am hoping she chimes in to share her experience with the diagnostic process and treatment. She'll tell you that it's a bugger to get the upper hand but it can be done.

Glynda

[scoora]

Leslie-Thanks for the information. I will be sure to check out the links.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Hi Glynda-Thanks. No she did not test it. She'll probably say she is sure that's what it is. Now that there is a sore there it sure is nasty looking. I have read it is a bugger but everything about Cushing's is just terrible.

Scoop's vet shared some notes with me that she took at a conference she went to. It says 90,000-100,000 new cases of PDH diagnosed per year. That is unbelievable.

I look forward to what Angela has to say. I've read some about this but not a whole lot. Scoop sure didn't need another problem on top of all his others. It scares me, everything just scares me so much.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Hi,
Scoop's vet wants to start him on Hills W/D food to help with his diabetes. Does anyone else feed this food to their CushPups? Does anyone know about this food in relation to the needs for dogs with Cushing's. The W/D is supposed to be high in fiber which is supposed to help diabetes. Since Scoop has lost weight (muscle mass) I don't want to see him lose more weight cause the W/D is also for weight control. I heard CushPups should have low carb, high protein in their diets. I just read something that suggests W/D is high in carbs. Sometimes things get so confusing I could just scream. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

MODERATOR NOTE: I have merged your post about diet into Scoop’s original thread. We normally like to keep all posts on a pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for members to refer back to the pup's history when needed.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vicki,

Cush pups need low FATS and moderate proteins. The carbs are more important in the diabetes picture than Cushing's.

Personally, I don't care for Hill's Science Diet of any variety, prescription included. They are primarily corn and sodium. SD used to be an excellent feed when Dr. Morris was in control but when Nestle bought it out, they changed his formula and ruined a good feed to boost the profits by using cheaper ingredients, and LOTS of corn. However, diet is critical when dealing with diabetes, MUCH more so than with Cushing's so I will leave the recommendation to the folks at k9diabetes to direct you with Scoop's diet.

How is he doing today?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Hi Leslie,
Thanks for that info. It's terrible to say but I think the vets push the Hill's products. I did notice the first ingredient is corn. I also saw recalls from the spring, not the W/D. Which really makes you wonder about them. I had watched a video on youtube with a Dr. Karen Becker(I think) and she has 3 parts about Cushing's and I thought she said it should be low carb, high protein. That's where I got that from. It makes me feel a little better that you think diet isn't as important for Cushing's as diabetes. I'm not crazy about the Hill's either. Tonight I will run it by the folks at the diabetes forum.

What food does your gang eat?

I wish I could say Scoop is doing good but I don't know if his eye sight is getting worse. He's had more problems with that today. He also is not very energic today or yesterday except when it's time to eat. Thanks for asking about him.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Squirt's Mom]

My gang? Weeellllll, they get white turkey, beef liver, sardines, cod, salmon, dark chicken, quinoa, brown rice, sweet potatoes, lentils, green beans, yogurt, eggs, butternut and acorn squash and coconut oil along with multiple individual vitamins, minerals, and supplements. Me? I get peanut butter, cracker and cheese. :p

I home cook for mine based on diets designed especially for each one according to their individual health needs - each diet is different. They also get kibble, dry feed - at the moment Natural Balance Duck and Sweet Potato or Fish and Sweet Potato. If I'm not on the computer, I'm in the kitchen...and seldom cooking for ME! :D But, they are worth every penny and every second and every twinge of pain all that standing causes, and I'll continue as long as I possibly can because I believe this is the best way to feed my babies. ;)

Finding the best diet for our babies can be an interesting, confusing, conflicting, opinionated, enlightening journey. The one thing to keep in mind is this - each pup is a unique biological system so what works well for my Squirt could make Scoop sick as all get out. There is a great deal of trial and error in finding what works best, but the effort is worth it when we see our babies become stronger, look better, act younger, and have fewer vet visits for problems like digestion, among other things.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Leslie,
Thanks. Oh my! You have your hands full!
I enjoyed reading that. I wouldn't mind doing that for my guys knowing it would be healthier for them. You just don't know about some of this stuff you are buying. I cook a boneless, skinless chicken breast about every other day for my guys but that's nothing compared to what you do.
Thanks again. That was very interesting.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Skye]

i home cook as well! I make about 3 weeks at a time and freeze it. Always have some thawing so they dont need warmed up long. i place in crock pot boneless skinless chicken breast, I cook rice on stove top and use frozen green beans, and for snack she gets about 3 T pumpkin. I add in her omega fatty oils, an over all supplement called Balance it, and fortiflora probotic and actually the nutritionist has me add corn oil........weird i know. however some part of corn is good........not all parts are. It gives her the fat needed but not to much as she needs low fat, not high protein because her pancreas or kidneys could not handle that either. So the oil helps meet needs where other things cant be added. The only food of hills she did okay on was R/D. Vets will always push what they sell because they get kick backs on it. and say its all the best.....however most general practice vets have very little educational training in nutrition. They believe what the reps of dog food companies tell them. I love Dr. karen Becker..........I watch many of her videos and she has some great books out too. My little girl will probably be having eye surgery very soon.........indolent ulcer.........what is wrong with your babies eye?

[scoora]

Hi Stormee,
Sounds like a delicious meal your little girl gets. I find listening to Dr. Karen Becker very interesting. I'll have to check out her books.

My Scoop has catracts from his diabetes. His eyes are getting worse. I wish your little girl all the best with her eye surgery. Hope everything goes well.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Scoop had his second ACTH test yesterday. I'm confused. Scoop's first test results-pre:6.2, there were two post draws. The first post was 13.5, the second was 16.7.
Yesterday's results -pre:7.4 One post this time:15.2
I said to the vet I didn't remember the numbers from the first one and she said the 13.5 post draw so that would mean the numbers have gone up. Scoop's Vetoryl had increased after the last test from 20mg to 30mg. I was going to ask if anyone knows what would cause that to happen. I just read that it looks like Boriss is having that problem too.

Can anyone explain what the pre draw number means. What causes that number to change and is there a number that is normal for the pre draw? The vet wants Scoop to go to 40mg but a split dose-20mg morning, 20mg evening. She asked me how many 30mg I have left so she said we can wait till those are all till we start the 40mg. Do you think that it is OK to wait? Sure wish the Vetoryl came in 20mg.

The last few days Scoop's been having problems. Scoop has cataracts and the vet thinks he can't see out of the right eye at all and thhe left is getting worse. The last few days he's been having a lot more trouble. He has a hard time finding me when I call him. He looks in the wrong direction. He walks in the wrong direction when we are outside and I say we are going to go in. He has arthritis in both front legs. Today he had some problems with that. Tonight after his supper he walked through the dining room like he was staggering. He walked up to the closet door and just stopped for a second then walked away. Very unsteady. He sleeps on the couch at night and always walks back and forth from one end to the other at least a few times each night, like he can't get comfortable. Tonight he moved one time, very unsteady. I say to myself, his eyesight is getting worse, his arthritis is acting up but he really has me scared tonight. Could things like this be signs of a macro? Boy, it's scary!
Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Harley PoMMom]

Scoop had his second ACTH test yesterday. I'm confused. Scoop's first test results-pre:6.2, there were two post draws. The first post was 13.5, the second was 16.7.
Yesterday's results -pre:7.4 One post this time:15.2
I said to the vet I didn't remember the numbers from the first one and she said the 13.5 post draw so that would mean the numbers have gone up. Scoop's Vetoryl had increased after the last test from 20mg to 30mg. I was going to ask if anyone knows what would cause that to happen. I just read that it looks like Boriss is having that problem too.

Sometimes it can take a bit of "tweaking" of the Vetoryl dose to arrive with in the therapeutic ranges. How are Scoop's symptoms, have any of them abated?


Can anyone explain what the pre draw number means. What causes that number to change and is there a number that is normal for the pre draw? The vet wants Scoop to go to 40mg but a split dose-20mg morning, 20mg evening. She asked me how many 30mg I have left so she said we can wait till those are all till we start the 40mg. Do you think that it is OK to wait? Sure wish the Vetoryl came in 20mg.



The pre blood draw is the resting cortisol reading. Any type of stress, anxiety, pain, etc. can cause the pre to be high. When treating with Vetoryl one always wants the pre number to be >/= to 1.45 ug/dl.

I think it is fine to wait until the 30mg capsules are used up, just a gentle reminder that an ACTH stimulation test should be done 10-14 days after any dosage change is done.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Boriss McCall]

Morning Vicki,
It is such a bummer when it isn't working the right way. :(
The vet told me I could wait until Boriss finished out the 30 day supply of 30mgs before we upped the dose.
I am not sure. but, I think that is what most people do because things could change within the 2 week time frame with the 30mg.
I chose not to wait & to add another pill because I could tell Boriss was miserable.
So, currently he is taking a 30mg pill & a10mg pill in the morning only.
We might end up going to twice a day as well. We are trying to see if we can get it controlled with once a day dosing first. fingers crossed...

I don't think you have anything to worry about with Scoop. My vet explained that is just takes time & tweaking for some dogs until you find just the right dose. She wasn't worried at all. It just makes me upset to see Boriss miserable.

I hope we can both figure this out for our pups soon. I feel like I am on a roller coaster right now.:eek:

[Boriss McCall]

Also I saw you mentioned about finishing out your 17 days on the 30mgs & then switching to twice a day on the 20mgs.

I know it gets expensive & I am still new at this. But, I would think your vet would want to test again before you start the new dose.
But, it could be that Scoop is like Boriss. The numbers were so high that it is safe to go ahead without a test?

Anyone else have input on this with experience? I just might be an over worrier & do more test than necessary. :rolleyes:

[scoora]

Hi Lori, Thanks Scoop's water consumption has decreased so his having to go out has decreased. Today his water consumption was only 12oz. That's scary. He was not himself today. That water amount is too low for an 18lb. dog, isn't it? He still has his big appetite. The fur on his neck seems to be longer. I think he has grown some hair there and on his belly. There are some strands of hair here and there on his belly which weren't there before. I also dont think he has the pot
belly anymore.
Thanks again for your explanation.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Harley PoMMom]

The usual water consumption for a dog is 1 oz per pound but other things can factor into that such as if the dog is getting canned food (because of the moisture content) or if water/liquid is being added in another way, such as with broths or cooked rice, pasta, etc.

Do you find that Scoop's symptoms seem to increase in the evening?

[molly muffin]

I always have had problems getting Molly to drink the amount recommended for body weight. She is on a special SO diet which encourages her to drink more, which helps prevent crystals that she is prone to from forming. So in our case, we're actually want diluted urine, yet have to worry about cushings coming on and her liver values too. It's enough to give a person more than a few grey hairs.
If they don't drink enough though, you can always add some broth or water to their food and make it soupy.

hugs,
Sharlene

[scoora]

Amy-I hope Boriss is doing well on his new dose. You're probably right. The vet probably thinks Scoop's numbers were high enough to not retest after finishing the 30mg. I don't know if I want to wait that long to change the dose. I would like to see how things go on a split dose. I thought I read somewhere that diabetic dogs should do twice a day dose. The vet wants to try to get his appetite under control.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Lori-Scoop's symptoms don't change throughout the day. They are pretty much the same all day. I called the vet's office and asked them to check with the vet that was working if she thought 12oz of water was low for Scoop. She said no it was fine. He drank 15 oz today. It just seems so weird. I'm used to the 20oz, 30oz, even some 40oz of water. Scoop's vet talked to a specialist about Scoop and I think the specialist might have suggested the split dose.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Sharlene, That's a good idea about adding some water to the food.

[Skye]

Hello! if his eyesight continues to decline.....heres a suggestion to start trying now....put scented candles about in yard....different scents so he can relate that scent to where he is in yard. and you can do that in your home too. just little votive candles. sort of helps makes a path for them.
on his arthritis have you tried adequinn injections? i have seen miracles with those. also a great supplement is cosesquinn double strength sprinkle capsules. And to help keep him from getting stiff.......massage massage massage, and if you can get him to walk like on air mattress, good exersise, and help keep him strong and mobile. Worse case..........i know someone who knows how to make front end and rear end carts to help our babies stay mobile. (he makes them and donates them to those in need)
On shysies ACTH her results were Pre 6.0 and Post 16.3

[scoora]

Hi everyone-Does anyone have experience with or thoughts about DMSO? Scoop's vet talked to a dermatologist about Scoop's calcinosis cutis. He said he has had some success with using DMSO. How do they test the calcinosis cutis? The specilist also said he puts them on long term antibiotics.
Thanks for any help.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Stormee-Thanks for all the great suggestions. I'll have to write them down so I can remember them. I just talked to the vet about the injections. She said she can do that. She said she has had success with them. Scoop takes Cosequin capsules two times a day but I don't know if they are double strength. I'll have to check that out. That's really nice that your friend makes those carts and donates them to those in need. What a sweetheart.
Thanks again.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vicki,

We have had members use the DMSO for CC. I hope they will be along to share their experiences with you. Meantime, here are some links that will tell you about DMSO.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

DSMO info
http://www.dmso.org/

http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm

http://www.herpes-coldsores.com/dmso.pdf

http://www.bevanpotter.com/DMSO_bp.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1124535

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1249191

http://books.google.com/books?id=CvHazimbX5oC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=dmso+and+calcinosis+cutis&source=bl&ots=DHk1CN2Ncd&sig=wrVXZXaL3D2IvLT-Xc7MIpwCmcs&hl=en&ei=VGvhTe_6Jsaltwf13bX9Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dmso%20and%20calcinosis%20cutis&f=false

http://www.itchnot.com/images/_7_Endocrine_Alopecia.pdf

[scoora]

Leslie-Thank you so much for all the links about DMSO. I will check them out.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, how is Scoop doing? is his water intake more stabilized now? Hope all is well

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Skye]

stopping by to see how you and baby are!!!

[scoora]

Hi everyone-Things are not good. First we had to deal with no power for almost 6 days but I would gladly deal with that if my Scoop was doing good. The vet cultured his calcinosis cutis. It has 2 infections and one is resistant to a lot of antibiotics. So the antibiotic has to be compounded and I have to wear gloves to give it to him. That is scarey stuff. I also put DMSO on it too, more gloves. Scoop lost more weight and is not doing good. Last week I took him to see an IMS and a Neurologist. Tomorrow he goes back for an ultrasound of his abdomin and an MRI of his head. I'm so scared but I need to find out. I love him so much and it hurts so much. I hope everyone will please keep Scoop in your thoughts and prayers. Thank you.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[labblab]

Oh Vicki, I'm so sorry about everything you guys have been going through. Please do let us know as soon as you learn anything more from the new test results.

In looking back through your thread, I see you were planning to increase Scoop's trilostane dose after his last ACTH came back higher. Is he taking more trilo now, or is the IMS wanting to wait to see these new test results first?

Sending many hugs to you and your sweet boy,
Marianne

[Bo's Mom]

Vicki,
I hope you find the answers you are seeking about Scoop. It is just so hard not knowing and wanting to do the best for our babies. Let us know what the IMS/Neurologist finds out. Good luck!!

[molly muffin]

Oh poor little Scoop. :( How horrible to have to be dealing with a very resistant infection. That is worrying of course but hopefully will be cleared up. I know it is scary not knowing what the tests will show but like you said, you'll know at least what is going on. Once you know, then maybe there will be a plan that you can come up with along with your vet and IMS. I certainly hope so. Do let us know what they say.
Is the Diabetes under control still?

Big Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Please say a prayer for my Scoop. He is having surgery this morning. He has a problem in his middle ear. There is something in there. It's either infection or a tumor. Praying for a good result. I am so scared.
Marianne-yes, Scoop's trilo went up to 40mg on Sat.

Love you so very much Scoop!
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Tina]

Oh my gosh Vicki! Tons of prayers going out to Scoop and you. I am so sorry you both are going through all of this. Know that all the Angels here will be with you today.

Love and hugs,

Tina and Jasper

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Oh, honey, I know how scared you are right now. I remember well when Squirt had her tumor removed. The abject terror that consumes us, those horrible racing thoughts...the whole kit and kaboodle is just awful. To keep my mind busy, I worked my butt off that day in the house, spit and spot shining, scrubbing, mopping, anything I could think of to do. It helped and I did such a good job I didn't have to clean house for a MONTH! :cool::D:rolleyes::p Well, ok...maybe it could have USED a cleaning but.....;)

We are all with you, sending prayers and strength to you and to Scoop. Let us know how he is as soon as you can....and remember, you are not alone.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Leslie-Just wondering. Where was Squirt's tumor located?

I wish I was there with Scoop right now. My husband and I left him at the hospital last night after his ultrasound and MRI. The hospital is an hour away. I wish I could have held him this morning. I regret not going there this morning. I think his surgery will be around 10:00. They had another surgery scheduled before Scoop's. I wish I would have gone. I got more upset after the surgeon called me a little while ago and explained things to me. It was nice of her to call since we didn't get to talk yesterday. Scoop has a lot of issues with his Cushing's and diabetes on top of this. I wish I would have taken him for the MRI a couple months ago. Now I am so very scared. I feel like I am going to fall apart. I want to hold my Scoop. Please come home to us Scoop. We love you very much Scoop!

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Squirt's Mom]

Squirt's tumor was on her spleen. She had the tumor and half her spleen removed. It was a scary time but she came out of it all just fine and I am praying Scoop has the same results today.

I was so bad about calling the hospital, they finally set a schedule for me - times of the day and night that they would call me with updates. Something about needing to do things other than tell me she was ok apparently. :rolleyes: What could possibly have been more important??? ;)

The worst part, tho, was the time we had to wait before the actual surgery, knowing that tumor was in there and could rupture at any second. I was terrified to pick her up but I had to carry her up and down the stairs. Getting to the surgery was a weird sort of relief. Getting a negative, no cancer, path report was the best news ever! Then after the surgery and her recovery to learn that her cortisol had returned to normal made it all that much better. A horrible few weeks that brought so much positive into our lives. This is what I am wishing and praying for you and Scoop today.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Prayers for your Scoop today. Poor baby..

[molly muffin]

oh my gosh. I'm sure you are a wreck having to wait on results and you know that we are all waiting with you, hugs and prayers and as many positive thoughts as we can produce are going out for you and Scoop and your family. I hope this is going to be a non-issue. Poor little scoop doesn't need to be dealing with anything else and neither do you.
Isn't there some rule about peace and tranquility through the holidays? :(

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

Vicki, I am thinking about you and Scoop and keeping the prayers going. I so understand how scared you are. Praying for good results.

Hugs from me and Jasper

[molly muffin]

Have you heard anything yet about Scoop?

hugs, Sharlene

[molly muffin]

I hope that everything went okay with the surgery. A little worried here.
Let us know when you can.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Tina]

I am worrying too Sharlene. Vicki, I have been thinking about you and Scoop all day and keeping you in my prayers.

Hugs,

Tina

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Worrywart checking in on you and Scoop. When you can, let us hear from you, honey.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Add me to the list too! hugs, Judi

[molly muffin]

We are all worried about you and Scoop. I do hope the surgery went okay and that Scoop is at home with you and well on the road to recovery and that you can all have a Happy Thanksgiving.

hugs,
Sharlene

[scoora]

Thank you so much everyone. Sorry I haven't checked in sooner. There's been so much. I just typed for awhile and I lost what I typed. My computer acts up. I'll be typing and then everything just disappears. So I'll try again. Maybe I'll send some info and then start again. I need to talk. There's a lot to tell. Scoop made it through the surgery and came home last Saturday. Don't know all the results just yet. The surgeon removed his left ear canal. Also found out his pituitary tumor size. 8mmx3mm I know that's not good but that's not what the neurologist initially told us. I have to tell you about it in another post later. Scoop's eyesight has gotten worse. He's been having a hard time. Now he has a cornal ulcer on his left eye. The same side they did the surgery. That had been the better of the two eyes with the cataracts. I was so optomistic after the surgery. The neurologist had told us the tumor was small and the surgeon was optomistic what was in his ear was infection, not a tumor. I know for sure there was infection but haven't heard about if there was a tumor in there. The pituitary tumor scares me so, so much. Scoop has just been getting worse and I am so, so sad and scared. All I do is cry. More later.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[cheydogger]

I just wanted to stop in and say I am so sorry for what you and Scoop are going through. My heart goes out to you. It seems a lot of us on here sit around and cry a lot. I am thinking about you and Scoop.

Big Hugs,

Ro and Chey

[addy]

Sometimes crying is the best way to let it all out and then you find your strength after a really good cry.

Let us know when you can. We are here for you, never doubt that. You can come here and talk all you want about whatever you need to get off your chest.

[molly muffin]

Oh Vicki :( I'm soooooo sorry that Scoop is having such a hard time and so are you. I would be exactly the same. Just let it go, cry, scream, whatever you need to do. It's anguish and it just needs to come out.

okay, so the tumor size isn't great, but it's not all horrible. What do the neurologist and the surgeon say now?
What you need is a plan going forward that you are comfortable with. Scoop might end up noting being able to see so well, or at all, but they are amazing creatures and can and will adapt as they need to. Leslie can tell you all about that.
Lets just try as hard as we can to find the joy in every moment and whatever comes tomorrow, you will be able to get through it somehow, because Scoop needs you and loves you. We'll be right here with you as much as you want us to be.
As for typing it all out. Trying typing it on notepad or wordpad and then copy paste it into the Reply box once you have it ready. That way you won't lose it and you can say what you want and however much you want.

love and some super big hugs your way,

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

So sorry to read of Scoops troubles... hope everything settles down for you both. How frustrating going through surgery with still more problems. Lots of hugs coming your way
Trish xx

[Boriss McCall]

I am so sorry to hear that Scoop is having a hard time right now. I know it is so scary. I will say a prayer for his comfort & healing & peace for you.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Thanks for letting us hear from you. I know how distressed you are right now and how much you have on your plate to do to care for Scoop after the surgery. I am really glad things have gone as well as they have to this point. That's a good sign. ;)

Don't panic about the pituitary tumor just yet. Wait til you can talk to the surgeon and until all the path reports come in. Macroadenomas on the pituitary gland are typically classed as such once they reach 10mm or larger according to Mar Vista Animal Medical Center. They have some good info at this link - http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_pituitary_macroadenoma.html

If Scoop is losing his sight, his behaviors could be confused a bit with neurological signs as he learns to adjust to his darkening world. He may seem confused, frightened over things you don't grasp, uncoordinated and such yet have nothing to do with a tumor. The good thing is that the vast majority of blind dogs adjust just fine to the situation and learn to rely on their other, heightened, senses like smell, hearing and touch to navigate the world. It is typically much harder on us humans who love them than it is on our babies. ;) I have two blind babies but they were blind when they came to me so I didn't go through the measures many take to save the sight. Addy has quite a bit of experience with eye problems and I'm sure she will be glad to share with you. Others here have gone down the same road, too. But I can offer you reassurances that blindness isn't as bad for them as we often think and that they can and do operate without sight just fine. My first experience was with a Great Dane who was both deaf and blind. She taught me how to communicate with her via vibrations - these babies are very often our teachers, not the other way around. By observing them carefully, we can usually tell which sense is dominate and work with that sense to help them. If he does lose his sight, I'll be glad to give you some ideas to help him. ;)

A tip for long posts - if you will click on the "Preview" button next to the "submit" button, it will sort of save your post to that point. You can scroll down just a bit from the preview pane and see the reply box where you can continue typing. By hitting Preview, you save your work to that point. ;) Learned that one the hard way myself! :D

Hang in there and know we are with you all the way.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Skye]

Hi...oh i my heart hurts for you...i realize your filled with worry, and not knowing....how i hope you can feel everyone reaching out for you and scoop, hope you and scoop can feel lift up in prayer.
I had a pug who could not see....and what happened was his other senses kicked into higher gear and it was almost like he "saw" better. Hard to explain. I also heard that if you place scented candles on ground outside and inside it helps them find their way around, and you can even keep scents grouped to help them know what section of house or yard they are in. Hope we all hear from you soon.

[scoora]

Thank you so much everyone for all the kind words, love and prayers. It's great to have so many friends to talk to.

I heard from the surgeon yesterday. She said it was infection in Scoop's left ear and no sign of cancer on the reports. That's great news.

Leslie-Thank you for the website on the tumors. I will be checking it out. I am so confused about all that. Different doctors say different things.

Scoop's corneal ulcer got big fast. He had to have a third eyelid flap done on Saturday to try to help it to heal. There might be infection in there too. All this infection is probably because of the Cushing's disease. Scoop sleeps so much.

Scoop couldn't have his ACTH test done after his increase to 40mg because of the surgery putting so much stress on him.

More another time.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

That is wonderful news Vicki, no tumor, no cancer. Yay! You were certainly due for some good news. :)

Hopefully Scoops eye will heal fast and he won't get one on the other eye at all. Crossing fingers for that.
I'm sure he is wiped out from everything he's been through lately and maybe once he is all healed up his energy will slowly recover too.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Skye]

how are things going? checking in on each of you.........

[scoora]

Just a quick update. Scoop's corneal ulcer is big. The culture also shows infection. Lots of meds. So much infection in Scoop. First the Calcinosis Cutis, then the ear, now the eye. Might have to do a surgical procedure on the eye. Today he is having his ACTH after being on his 40mg dose for over 3 weeks. The eye doctor recommended to wait another week but the vet said no. See how that goes. Also his BG is up. Nothing's going Scoop's way at all. Don't know if the way he acts sometimes is eye sight and hearing loss or his tumor. So scarey.

[addy]

Those eye ulcers in Cush pups are hard to heal. We had 12 different meds for Zoe's eye and it took 3 months. Our opthamologist was trying hard to avoid surgery so was very agressive with the meds. It was a full time job for us but it did heal. Did they give you dog serum? That helped Zoe's eyes so much.

I know how you feel, it is like one thing after another and it is hard. You do the best you can.

It is possible his numbers may be a bit increased from the ulcer. You never know,

[scoora]

I know the Dechra site says to start ACTH testing 4 hours after dosing and that's what the vet did other times. Today Scoop had his dose at 6:20 AM. I told them that when I dropped him off. They had me come back at 11:00. I asked if he got his ACTH because the times didn't seem right. The tech said yes and I mentioned about the 4 hours. She said it's only 2 hours. So frustrated right now. Do you think that will make a difference in the results?

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[lulusmom]

Studies have shown that Vetoryl (trilsotane) reaches peak effectiveness in 1 1/2 to 2 hours. UC Davis monitoring protocol is different than Dechra's and ask their patients to be in their office within 2 to 3 hours of dosing so your vet may be using the UC Davis protocol. Either way, I think the stim test results will be meaningful.

[molly muffin]

Poor Scoop. Hopefully an aggressive medication plan will help it to heal, but yea, it's probably going to be a long road, considering everything else going on with Scoop.
Addy knows that road well. :(
Hang in there!!

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

lulusmom-Thanks. I'm glad to see the UC Davis monitoring protocol says 2-3 hours and you feel the results will be meaningful. That makes me feel better. I asked a tech again about the times for the ACTH today and she checked with the vet. The vet said instead of using the gel she used the more expensive stuff and there is a difference in the timing for the one compared to the other.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Skye]

checking in with you...........
how is the eye doing? did they say what type of ulcer it was? Shysie just had her indolent ulcer surgery done, and got her stitches and cone off today. Hope things are improving......(((((hugs)))))

[scoora]

addy-Yes Scoop had dog serum but didn't get to use it much. Meds changed. Tuesday before Thanksgiving I noticed Scoop's eye looked different. Took him to the vet. She said it was an ulcer and wanted him seen again on Friday. She wouldn't be in but another vet was. On Friday the vet said it looked like it was getting worse. She changed some of the meds, one she gave him was the serum. She felt he needed to see an opthamalogist as soon as possible. They found one that would see him Saturday morning. That's when he had the third eyelid flap done. Changed some meds again. We were told the flap would stay up 2-3 weeks. Instead of going back to the place where he was on Saturday for a recheck a week later, he was able to go to an opthamalogist a lot closer to home. She said the flap was partially down and wanted to see in there anyway so she took it down after 6 days. She did say the flap was doing it's job. She said she was going to get aggresive with the meds and compounded an eyedrop for him. She rechecked him on Monday and had me fast hm in case she would have to do surgery. She was happy with the progress so no surgery on Monday. Now she is going to check him again on Friday and same thing. No food in case of surgery. She said even though it's progressing in the right direction he still might have to have surgery. I had to make a chart for all his meds and ointment so I can keep everything straight.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

Stormee(Skye)-if they said what kind of ulcer it is, I didn't catch it. Glad to hear things are going well for your baby.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[addy]

We made a chart too, our bathroom looked like a pharmacy school;)

After going through all of that, Zoe's 5 medication drops are a piece of cake. Odd thing is, it starts to get routine:eek::eek::eek:

I sure hope things get better, I feel for you after my summer of it.

(((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))) )

[scoora]

addy-Thank you. I'm glad things got better for Zoe. I hope they do for Scoop, too.
I just gave him one of his drops. His eye doesn't look as red as yesterday but I think that is a bad thing. The opthamologist said the redder the better because that means the blood is getting in there. Scoop sees her again tomorrow. I sure hope he doesn't have to have surgery AGAIN. I don't mind all the meds and the drops and the charts just so there is no surgery. Just so scared all the time. I had to fast him on Monday before his appointment and now again tomorrow (except for a very small amount with his Vetoryl and other meds) just in case of surgery. He is not happy when he doesn't get his food.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[addy]

I know, I was so scared too because they did not want to have do surgery on Zoe, only as a last resort, she has multiple eye problems not just an corneal ulcer that would not heal:eek::eek::eek:

I'll be crossing all fingers and paws for Scoop. I am not sure about the red, I think it depends on what kind of red. For Zoe, we wanted to see blood vessels in the white of her eyes, not inflamation red.
It is most likely different for each dog, depending on the treatment and what is all wrong.

[scoora]

addy-Thanks. Yes the red is the blood vessels in the whites of the eyes. Just doesn't look like it did yesterday.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Skye]

I am thinking this may be more extension surgery and will have to have sedation.....but on a few of the surgeries they have that as an option though perference to sedate of course. I had read where some can be be localized and done without sedating. I spoke to the doctor and on some surgeries that is an option although sometimes better success rates are when sedated.
fingers crossed!!!! no surgeries.

[molly muffin]

Well I really am going to stick to hoping that things are improving and no surgery needed. Poor thing has just had so much going on lately. :( You all need a nice calm winter
hugs,
Sharlene

[frijole]

Hi! My Annie had a corneal ulcer and I went to a specialist who said the same thing. You want red because it means the blood is flowing and healing is happening. Fingers crossed!!! Kim

[scoora]

Scoop's vet called me with his ACTH results today. His pre was 9.3 and his post was 10.1 She is not increasing his dose because his blood sugar has gone up and she increased his insulin so she wants to get that straightened out if possible. What happened is Scoop lost some more weight so she increased his caloric intake and I guess that raised his BG. She thinks if the BG gets better than the cortisol might get better. Then there's the eye ulcer, who knows what that's doing to him. His post number is better than his last one. Why do they say to have an electrolytes test done with the ACTH? She didn't do one this time.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[scoora]

How important is an electrolytes test when an ACTH is done?

Scoop seems to be doing more trembling lately and he was so restless today.
Tonight he drooled out of the one side of his mouth quite a bit. It got his blanket wet. I never saw him do that before. All I ever think about is that horrible tumor in his head and then I cry and get so angry that this is happening to my baby doll.

Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Trish]

Awww poor Scoop, is his blood sugars ok? I just thought the drooling could be related to that? Thoughts are with you two
Trish xx

[scoora]

Trish-blood sugars could cause the drolling? No, his BG was high and the vet increased his insulin recently.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[Trish]

Probably not, I was just thinking if he is drooling while sleeping maybe the BG was a little low or else maybe Scoop was just in a real deep sleep and drooled. I am presuming BG is checked regularly on insulin especially if it was high - if it hasn't been checked it might pay to check he has not gone too low. Just a thought, I am sure you are onto that. Hope it has settled down.

Trish xx

[scoora]

Trish-Thanks, I didn't know that could happen if too low.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

Hope Scoop is doing okay.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Sharlene-Thanks for asking about Scoop. He had a visit to the opthamologist today. She said he is not out of the woods yet but she is happy with the way his corneal ulcer is looking. Each time he goes she says it is slow but going in the right direction. Scoop is having a BG curve tomorrow.
I don't think Scoop is ever going to get better. He has changed since he went totally blind. All I do is think about that horrible large tumor he has. It is constantly on my mind. It makes me so sad and I constantly cry.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

Vicki it is so hard to see them not being the way they use to be. :( Of course you are upset and cry. It's heart wrenching. What you have to remember and what is important is that you are giving him the very best life possible and that you are loving him and letting him know that he is still all important to you. Sometimes, that is what matters the most. If they know they are loved and cared for, then usually they are pretty happy.

My golden, Tasha, was at a horrible state physically, but she always wagged her tail, we always told her what a good girl she was and how much we loved her and to her, that was what made her happy, even as her body failed.

You are doing everything and are such a good mummy. Don't think about the tumor all the time, it will just make you feel nauseous. Concentrate each day, on one good thing instead. Maybe that will help to get through this.

Sending you tons of great big hugs!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Sharlene-Thank you again. It's just so hard not to think about it. We constantly tell Scoop how much we love him and I am constantly telling him he is a good boy for everything he does. Like when he goes potty or he finds his water bowl on his own. Sometimes he can go to the kitchen and find his water and sometimes he can't. Sometimes he steps into his water dish. He'll stand and stare at a wall or at the window. We don't know if it's because of the light at the window. Is it the tumor making him do things like that or because he can't see? The neurologist says we will never know. We haven't left him home alone since he started with the corneal ulcer. I'm afarid to. Eating and ear scratches are what makes him happy. He doesn't care about his toys or chews anymore. He sleeps a lot. He trembles quite often. I get so angry that this had to happen. He just can't catch a break. I was hoping for a miracle when this all started but it doesn't look like I will get one.
Vicki-Scoop and Raleigh's mom

[molly muffin]

Oh Vicki :( I know you love him bunches and bunches and tell him that all the time. I just meant that is the good thing to concentrate on. It's all sometimes that we people have to hold onto during these kind of things.

Maybe you did get a miracle, just not the one you and all of us, hoped would happen. Maybe each time that he came through something that was the miracle.

I would be angry too, and cry buckets and probably scream some, well, who knows what, but it probably wouldn't be pretty. It is completely unfair. No sweet little animal who can't even Tell you what they feel, or what is going on with them, should have to go through these kind of things and Scoop had gone through them all it seems. Some go through one or two, but not Scoop, he went all out, full steam ahead and he's still going.

I wonder, how about getting one of those video baby monitors. That way you can at least keep an eye on him while being in another room or doing something else. I wish that would work with while you were away from home too. That would be handy, then you wouldn't have to have someone there 24 hours a day with him. Addy and her husband went through this too with Zoe over the summer with her ulcer. They didn't leave her at all either. It is truly scary trying to treat those things and so exhausting. :(
Just going to keep sending you hugs Vicki!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Sharlene-Thank you so, so much. I never thought about the miracle that way. I wish I could be strong but I am not. It's so nice to be able to talk with such wonderful, caring people.

[molly muffin]

Love the avatar photo. Those two are just the cutest!
I think that Support is one of the things we need in the most when trying to help out our little ones. It's all so scary and we worry till we feel sick and cry so many tears we end up with headaches. It Does help to have others to talk to. I'm glad that we are all there for each other.
Vicki, I think that you are much stronger than you realize. You have already gone through so much and done so much for Scoop. So many in this world would not do so, because it's just too hard and too overwhelming.
Just keep hanging in there and doing what you can. It's all that anyone can do actually. You are giving your all and that is awesome!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

It is so very hard to watch our pups change so rapidly, it is a loss indeed for us and we mourn each loss in anticipation of the final loss we dont want to bear. As hard as it is for all of us, we must stay in the now and celebrate each small thing every day. I used to tell people to come on their thread and post one good thing each day. After all, ultimately it is all in God's hands. Dont dwell on what was or what may come tomorrow.

So find one good thing each day, no matter how small it is and we will celebrate it with you.

Let's all post one good thing each day, come on guys, I know you all can do it:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Boriss McCall]

Vicki.. I am so sorry that you & Scoop are going thru this. I know it has to be difficult. :(

[scoora]

Thank you so much everyone. Your love and support is awesome.
Addy-I know you are right. I never did like change. Scoop is having a BG curve today. Hopefully that will be something good for today. We'll see at the end of the day.
Sharlene- The picture of Scoop(fawn) and Raleigh(black) is from 2010. Scoop has changed so much since July. I must get other pictures loaded into my computer. I do wonder if some people think I shouldn't be putting Scoop through all this. I feel I must try to help him any way I can. I love him and Raleigh so much.

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, I'm sure some might think you shouldn't be putting Scoop through trying to get him better, but then again, do those people have the same sort of bonds with their dogs as you do? What would they do if Scoop was theirs? It's easy to say something when it's not you going through it. Here is what I Can tell you...
there isn't anything I wouldn't do to try and save molly if it were her, or to get her better. That is my decision just as helping Scoops is yours. I think that we know when the point is reached that we can't do anything to help them and that they are tired and are ready to go on to something else. I think they tell us those things in their own way. So.. don't worry about what Others think, this is your life, your Scoop and only you know how he is, how he responds, and what you should do and when. So, lets just leave that alone until you want to talk about it. Okay? :)
We're here with you. Now what was your One good thing today with Scoop?

hugs,
Sharlene

[scoora]

I was hoping is BG curve would have been the good thing today but the vet increased his insulin one unit. I guess she didn't like the numbers. I didn't think his numbers were too bad except for the last one. The vet told the tech to tell me to increase it and she would call me tomorrow. See what she has to say about it. Each day with Scoop is pretty much the same except when he has a vet appointment. Just the fact that he is here with us and we can love him makes the day special. I just love to sit with Scoop and give him an ear rub and talk to him.

[molly muffin]

Did the vet call today? What did she say?

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Sharlene-Scoop's BGs yesterday were in the low to mid 200s and then the last one was in the low 300s. The vet said they weren't too bad but she would like to see them more around 150. She never said that before when he had a curve. Sometimes I am confused about things.

[scoora]

Scoop seemed to be finding his way around a little bit better today. He was still bumping into things but it seemed like he was trying to be a bit more careful and wasn't bumping as hard. Sometimes he would find his way to his water dish just like he could see it and other times not as good but the good times are encouraging.

[milosmom]

justs checking in on you and your babies ... {{{hugs}}}} patty and meka xoxox

[Trish]

HI Vicki - glad to hear Scoop is getting around OK... have a good weekend :)
Trish xx

[addy]

Checking in on you and Scoop, did anyone give you the scent tip and the rug tip? Changing the texture from room to room or to his water dish can help Scoop find his way. Also altering the scent in rooms help.
I'm sure you already know this but thought I would mention it just in case.

Jenny and Judi can help you with tips as well as Leslie.

Zoe can still see shadows but she cant hear very well any more. I use hand signals and get as close as I can to her, I touch her alot so then she knows to follow my scent.

You are doing great, you really are:):):):) hug that Scoop for me:D

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki!
Merry Christmas to you and Scoop!!!!
Have a safe and wonderful holiday! Thinking of you!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Hi everyone-haven't posted on my thread for a while. Wasn't on the computer for a couple of weeks over the holidays and lately I've just been reading others threads. I've wanted to write but it gets so late. Tonight I'm so upset I need to talk. I try to be aware of Scoop at all times. He had an accident in the house on Christmas and another within a week after. My husband told me we can't have him peeing all over the carpeting. Tonight after my husband went to bed I dozed off on the loveseat. I usually try to be where ever Scoop is. He was on the floor sleeping. I just feel so guilty that I wasn't there for him. I shouldn't have dozed off. I feel like it's my fault for falling asleep. He usually is good for those hours till I take him out. I just don't know what happened. I woke up and saw a wet spot on the living room carpet and Scoop was in the kitchen. After he eats his supper at 6:00 he goes out and then usually sleeps the rest of the night except for moving to a different position. I then take him out again around 10:30-11:00. This happened before 9:00. I feel horrible! I scolded him. I didn't yell but I still feel so bad. I just said he was a bad boy and he shouldn't do that. Now I feel horrible. I love Scoop so much and I know he's sick and doesn't mean to do anything wrong. I guess I was scared because I know my husband doesn't like it. Scoop is not a bad boy. I'm always telling him what a good boy he is. He really is very good. He has been through so much lately. My husband used to always say to him that he is the best dog ever. I know Scoop's days are few with us but I don't want anything like that to make it shorter. I hope he doesn't hate me for scolding him. I feel like the bad guy. I give him his shots, eye drops, take him to the vet. I do that because I love him. I hope he knows how much I love him. I feel like I can't deal with this cause I don't want to lose him. I feel like I'm losing it. I hate that horrible Cushing's tumor! It's taking my "baby doll" away from me. He's been having problems with his BG levels being up. The vet increased his insulin. She said maybe he is becoming insulin resistant. But I don't think that is going to matter because I think his tumor might be causing problems. Can't say for sure but I have a feeling it is. I asked my husband if he would consider radiation but he said no, you're just delaying the inevitable(sp?). Has anyone on here had any success with radiation for the pituitary tumor? I have been so upset lately knowing what is coming and knowing that the radiation might help but can't do it. Scoop does a lot of trembling. It's hard to tell with the neurological signs because of Scoop's blindness and hearing gone in one ear. The neurologist told me we wouldn't ever know for sure which it is. Back in Nov. when Scoop had his MRI, the neurologist told me that the tumor wasn't big enough to cause any problems and I said so it's not a macro and he said no, micro. Then when the surgeon was optimistic there was no tumor in Scoop's ear canal, I was so happy and so optimistic Scoop would improve after the surgery. Maybe head tilt would improve, maybe his balance and being tol his tumor wasn't a macro. Well a few days later that changed. I found out after reading the radiologist's report for the MRI he called the tumor a macro and said it wasn't affecting any tissue at that time. I questioned the neurologist. He said that it would be months and months before it would affect him. Then I questioned the size and he said to the best of his ability with their equipment it was 8mmx3mm. I questioned him about the size and he said it is large but not as large as a lot of others he has seen. I wanted to scream and still do. The first day he lead me to believe the tumor was smaller than it is. I guess in his eyes it was. My heart is just breaking. It is so, so hard. Then after Scoop was home only a few days after his surgery he started with the corneal ulcer. We don't leave Scoop home alone. We didn't want him hurting his eye. Now I'm afraid he might hurt himself. There are times he can get a drink of water with no problem and a few times he has stumbled when he gets to the dish and has fallen or stepped into it. He stands at a wall or kitchen cabinet with his head up and "stares". I'm afraid to leave him home alone. Ever since he went totally blind he has changed. I think that was back soon before his surgery. So don't know if it's his lack of sight or the tumor. I know he doesn't have quality of life, he doesn't bother with toys but as of now he still anxiously(sp?) awaits his food and he loves his ear rubs. He still gives kisses once in a while when you ask him for one. Today he enjoyed a chew for a while. He loves laying next to my husband on the recliner and sleeps. I know I'm being selfish but I can't imagine life without him. I just cry and cry. Thanks for listening.

[scoora]

I have seen it mentioned on here that Vetoryl can cause the pituitary tumor to grow faster. Is there any proof to back that up? Just wondering how that is known?

[addy]

Oh Vicki, I am so sorry for everything you are going through. Scopp knows you love him and you are under a lot of pressure. There was a point last summer with my Zoe and all the meds and expense and every week driving out to the specialists and changing hours at work and missing work, I thought Zoe was coming to the end of her journey. Somehow we adjusted to it all. Each loss of Zoe's health, we adjust somehow. She has accidents in the house sometimes so we try to keep her on a schedule, when we miss it, we just clean it up. The carpeting, well, someday we will replace it.

Will Zoe be the same as she was before this started four years ago? No, but you know what, I am not the same. I mourn the loss of her good looking coat and hair and tail and then I look at photos of myself from 4 years ago and gosh, have I aged;) I cant do things I did 4 years ago so I accept it and now have to accept Zoe's losses.

I used to cry driving home from work every night, to get it all out because I did not want to cry with my dogs. They are so happy when I am happy.

You are experiencing anticipatory grief and it hurts and it is real. I used to open the glove compartment in my car and yell "Damn it Cushings get in there, I am locking you up now."

Vicky, try to lock it all up once a day and force yourself to go do something you used to enjoy, even for just an hour. Try to change the message in your head and take it one day at a time or one morning at a time. Sing a happy song to Scoop even if he cant hear.

Most of all, please come here, like you now did and let it all out. We have some pretty good shoulders to lean on.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Unless they have changed the guidelines, a pituitary tumor isn't considered to be a macro until it reaches 10mm is size. At 8mmx3mm, Scoop's tumor has a way to go to qualify as a macro. It may be possible for the neurosurgeon to know somehow that Scoop's tumor would grow to a size to qualify, but if so this would be the first I recall ever hearing anyone having that ability.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_pituitary_macroadenoma.html

As a Pug, Scoop is unfortunately one of the breeds prone to this type of tumor BUT that does NOT mean he has or will develop one. All pups with the pituitary form of Cushing's have a tumor on the pituitary gland but they rarely grow to a size to be considered a macro. If this is a serious concern, then you can have subsequent MRIs to see if it is growing and if so how fast.

It may take Scoop a while to adjust to being blind. He can't be expected to act like he used to for some time, if ever. There ares some things you can do to help him adjust.


Don't rearrange furniture, etc. Leave everything where it is, put ti back in place if you do have to move it.


Keep his food and water bowls in the same places at all times.


Leave his bed(s) in the same place at all times.


Get some cheap little rugs with different naps (textures) and lay out paths to each of his spots. Use the same nap for his food / water, a different one to his bed, and so on. Use different naps for each path but keep each path uniform in texture.


You can use different scents for each room to help him oreint. Put vanilla in the bathroom, cinnamon in the kitchen, and so on.


Start building his confidence by calling him to you over short distances in the house. When he comes to you, be sure to praise him a great deal and offer a good treat every time.


Get some bubble wrap and wrap the corners, furniture legs, etc that he can run into and bash his head.


Foam pipe insulation will work well on corners of walls.


Devise games to play with him that don't require him to see. If he will accept, play tug-of-war with a soft toy, things like this that will let him know at all times where the play field is. Trinket plays "bulldozer" - she comes to my side and starts pushing against me. I respond by pushing back gently and this is her play.


Brick plays when I tap the floor with my nails. I will move my hand around in a very small area (he weighs 5 lbs) tapping the whole time and he will chase my hand. This is his play.


Don't expect him to handle steps / stairs like he used to if he will attempt them at all. You can retrain him by teaching him "up" and "down" while tapping the step you wish him to move to but don't push him. This is a very scary thing for them as they don't know how far they are being asked to step up or down so be patient. He may never be willing to take steps on his own.


If you decide to teach him steps, start with the direction he seems to have the least fear of and perfect that direction before learning the opposite. ie if he goes up better than down, concentrate on getting him comfortable with up first.


Bear in mind, even a threshold in a doorway may present a fear response.



Make noise so he knows where you are at all times. You can wear bells / jingling jewelry on your ankles / wrists but wear the same ones every day so the sound is the same day to day to day. One of my pet peeves used to be to hear someone dragging their feet when they walked - now I do it on purpose so my babies can find me. I talk out loud and sing a lot as we walk around outside...and I just talk out loud anyway inside and out. :p


If Scoop is fearful outside, he may feel more secure on a lead and in a harness. If he has a fenced area walk him around and around his area on a lead so he can adapt and learn his space again without his sight. Again, leave things outside in his area in the same places at all time. Pick up any limbs / twigs / etc that could poke him in the eye or otherwise harm him.

I hope this helps a bit and if you have questions about blind babies, I will try to help in any way I can. Just remember, he is probably very frightened and a bit depressed right now and will need extra TLC to help him adjust and gain confidence.

And tell your hubby that I said carpets can be replaces but Scoops cannot. :mad: How dare he treat you in a manner that would make you afraid enough to treat your baby in a way you feel badly about. :mad::mad:

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Scoop's vet called me with his ACTH results today. His pre was 9.3 and his post was 10.1 She is not increasing his dose because his blood sugar has gone up and she increased his insulin so she wants to get that straightened out if possible. What happened is Scoop lost some more weight so she increased his caloric intake and I guess that raised his BG. She thinks if the BG gets better than the cortisol might get better. Then there's the eye ulcer, who knows what that's doing to him. His post number is better than his last one...

Oh Vicki, my heart aches for what you are going through. I know how sad and upset (make that distraught :o) I was when I saw changes for the worse in my own Cushpup. One thing that caught my eye, though, was your previous reply giving us Scoop's ACTH result back in December. Is your vet aware that Scoop is starting to have accidents in the house? With an ACTH result that was above the recommended therapeutic range at that time, I would think that it may now be reasonable at this point to go ahead and increase his trilostane dose a bit. That may result in a decrease in thirst and urination that can make all your lives easier, at least in the short run.

As far as the long run, I do understand your worries about the tumor. You have asked about evidence that trilostane can cause pituitary tumors to grow more quickly, and there is at least one research study that documents this possibiity. I will track down the link and post it for you later on. As Leslie says, the only way to know for certain if Scoop's tumor is growing would be to repeat the MRI. But I know this is a very expensive procedure that requires anesthesia. If Scoop's tumor is indeed growing to a point that is placing pressure elsewhere in his brain, I think you will increasingly see more neurological symptoms, just with your own eyes.

We have had a few dogs here who have had their pituitary macrotumors successfully reduced by conventional radiation therapy. But it is not a "forever" cure as the tumors inevitably grow back after that treatment. There are other, more experimental surgery and radiation approaches that are now being attempted at some select veterinary centers. But all are major undertakings, and very expensive. My own boy suffered from what we believed to be an expanding macrotumor, but we did not believe that he nor we were able to able to proceed with radiation treatment due to his compromised physical state, the emotional toll on us all, and the cost of the treatment. And so my heart also resonates with your torn feelings about that, too. It is so hard when you feel helpless to make things better for your baby.

But as I said above, I do think you and Scoop might get some relief with his urination by increasing his trilostane dose. And that might make things easier for you all right now, and allow you to regroup a bit. You are dealing with quality of life issues right now, and even if the trilostane may end up hastening the tumor growth, the time you have with Scoop right now may be made more comfortable if the thirst/urination is lessened.

Above all, I am so grateful that you feel as though you can share your struggles with us. I truly hope that it can help to lighten your burden a bit by allowing us to help you shoulder the load.

Sending many loving hugs to you and to sweet Scoop,
Marianne

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, I cried when I read your post this morning. It just breaks my heart for scoop, for you, for your husband.
Leslie has given you some excellent tips on the blind issue.
I agree with Marianne, that an increase in his dosage for cushings might help with the accidents.
My biggest tip for that though, is to say, the Bissel green machine. It's a hand held little machine, that you put cleaner on one side and water on the other and you can use it on any spot or accident area. It will completely take the urine up. We have one as Molly is an "attitude" accident, waiting to happen. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, we have some very expensive wool rugs and carpet on stairs up upstairs, and it was driving my husband nuts. Thunder, piddle, another dog in the house, piddle, that kind of thing. That Little Green machine, saved me many times. It's worth it.
That will solve that problem for you. (you can find them at Walmart usually)

I wish I could give you a hug and make all the anxiety go away. The worry, the fear, the hurt and grief, is all there and those things can get in the way of just trying to enjoy each day you have. As Addy said, throw it in the glove box and don't look at it too often. Also, create a safe place for Scoop to be so that you can maybe go out to dinner with your husband or do something else just for a little bit. It doesn't have to be long, but I think you both might need something like that. Or even get a sitter. :) Like having a baby.

thinking of you!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Addy, Leslie, Marianne-Thank you so much. Your kind, loving, helpful words mean so much. I know all of you have gone through some tough times and I appreciate you sharing your experiences and knowledge with me and everyone else on here. I am so glad I have a place to say how I feel. I talk to my daughter who lives at home and she understands. She loves our "boys" so very much. She became a vegetarian because she loves animals so much. She listens to me. I know this is all hurting her. She just doesn't express it like I do. She doesn't take after me. I know my husband loves Scoop and Raleigh too but I don't think he understands exactly how I feel. I don't tell him everything like I do my daughter and all of you.
Addy- we try to keep a schedule to take Scoop out. Like I said, he usually sleeps through the evening. I like the glove compartment thing and the happy song. I asked the vet if she knew anything about radiation treatments even though my husband said no to the idea. She said she didn't know much except she said Scoop would not be the same as before. I knew that. That's not what I am looking for. Like you said we all change. Before he went blind he at least seemed "happier". The opthamologist said older dogs can have a harder time adjusting to blindness. We thought maybe after the corneal ulcer healed maybe we could see about cataract surgery for the one eye but when I showed her the MRI report she said the tumor could affect his vision then the surgery would have been for nothing.

Leslie- I knew about not changing anything so when we rearranged the living room furniture for the Christmas tree, I was worried. He did go to where he thought the recliner was and wait. We knew what he wanted. We have a small ranch so there's not much room to get lost in. Scoop hasn't been able to jump up on furniture since he started with his head tilt and being off balance in July so we also have to watch if he is on furniture sleeping that he doesn't fall off if he gets up. We have carpeting in the living room and it goes into the dining room then the kitchen is linoleum. I think that helps Scoop. The frige is on one side of his water bowl and a dog bed on the other so if he bumps into them he usually knows where the water is. Sometimes he misses. Sometimes he trips on the bowl and falls. Sometimes he just stands at a wall or at the dining room window looking up. I try calling him to come at least in my direction but he usually looks the wrong way and just stands there sometimes turning his head back and forth. I try to let him know where I am if he's awake. He sleeps a lot. I talk to him loads. Scoop has had a hard time with his balance since his head tilt started so we have been very careful outside. With his lack of balance and weak muscles he's not too steady in the yard. We don't have a fenced in yard so we have always gone out with them. Scoop's calcinosis cutis is bad under his front legs and at first they were oozing and wet so the vet said try not to use his harness. Right now they are dry and I put a coat on him so I use his harness again. His back legs are weak with the muscle loss so when we didn't use the harness we just would pick him up and carry him in and out. Now he's used to that. Everything just has worked against Scoop. I like all your suggestions about the bubble wrap and everything. I'll have to write them down. You are right, carpets can be replaced, our babies can not. Looking back at what I wrote, I made it sound like my husband said that after the accident at Christmas. When he said it, it was before then. I'm not very good with my writing. I think, I hope he was referring to him just losing control all the time at the end. Me, I don't care how many times he has an accident. So please don't think badly of my husband. He is not a bad person. He loves Scoop, too. I just get so paranoid. I worry about everything. I guess I worry that the end might be close and I see the accidents as that being a start to it. I am such a mess. I worry about everything. I wish I was a stronger person. We have a large carpet cleaner. I was wondering if anybody has one of those small Bissell ones that you use for spots. Maybe I could suggest to my husband about getting one of those.

Marianne-I did tell the vet about his two other accidents so she ran a culture to check for UTI but there was nothing. I did take notice sometimes when he pees he seems to start to walk away maybe before he is completely done. The one day he went pee, then poop, then went pee some more. That made me think he wasn't completely done at first. I said to the vet about doing an ACTH because it's been a month. She said let's see if his BG levels get any better first. He's struggling with them right now. Scoop takes a nice, big drink after he eats and sometimes in between but I don't think his thirst is out of control. I would be interested if you could track down the link for the info about trilostane and the tumors. I appreciate it. Was your cushpup on trilostane at that time? If I may ask, what was his physical state that made you decide not to pursue treatment? Is that in your thread somewhere? I could look it up. You mentioned more experimental approaches. Is there some info somewhere that I could read about it? Is there research being done on Cushing's? I would be interested in reading about that, too. Why do so many of our babies get this horrible disease? It's so sad. I wish I could afford to get another MRI done. The first one was $1600. I wish this whole thing was just a nightmare and I would wake up.

Thank you again for all the support and the shoulders to lean on and to cry on. Love to all of you and your babies.

[scoora]

Sharlene-Thank you too for your love and support and the kind words. It's wonderful knowing so many people care about us. It took me a while to type my last response so I stopped for lunch then came back to it so I didn't see your post till I was done with that. It's funny cause I asked about the little Bissel and here you have one. I saw on Amazon that they sell ones that say about pet instead of green machine. Do you think it's the same one? They were around $150 then you could send for a $20 rebate.

You are so right. I don't remember when I had a "happy" day last. Probably before this past July. That's when everything hit. The holidays were ok but thinking this is probably Scoop's last ones with us made it hard but I was happy he was here with us for these.

We have a daughter, her name is Molly, who lives at home. So she stays with Scoop while I go grocery shopping on Sat. mornings if my husband is working. Then when he comes home if we want to go out for lunch, Molly stays with Scoop again. So there is some extra help. I have to think and talk to my husband about that "safe place". We want to make sure Scoop can't hurt his eye with the ulcer either. During the week I just stay with him all the time.

Thanks for your kind and loving words.
Hugs right back to you and your Molly

[labblab]

Hi again, Vicki.

Here's a link to a summary of the research study you were asking about:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19041802

My own Cushpup (the yellow Lab who is my avatar photo) was treated with trilostane for about seven months before he started exhibiting worrisome neurological problems. He started to stumble and lose his coordination, at times paced endlessly around the house (went off into rooms by himself and just kept walking around, even into closets), he just wasn't "himself" when we'd talk to him or try to engage him, initially got really picky about eating, and finally stopped eating and drinking entirely. It seemed as though he was hungry and thirsty, but when he went over to his bowls, it was as if he couldn't remember how to make his tongue and mouth work anymore. :(

As you can imagine, this was so painful to witness, and things really got very bad very quickly. He was at a stage where he would have needed IV nutrition and hydration to survive, and this in conjunction with being taken to a university veterinary center away from our city had we pursued the radiation. Traditional treatment consisted of radiation three times weekly for at least a month, and each session required a general anesthetic. He had always been terrified at being left at the vet's for even an hour, so the notion of him being hospitalized for a month away from home -- with all those treatments -- was not something that we felt we could subject him to, even had we been able to afford it. So we instead made the decision to release him from any further suffering.

On the flip side, we have had members who have successfully pursued this type of radiation therapy and received some extended quality time for their dogs. And we have also had a genuine pioneer -- one of our members was the first dog to undergo a cutting-edge surgery for tumor removal in Los Angeles. There are also some centers around the country that are experimenting with shorter and innovative courses of treatment, with mixed results so far in terms of our few members who have pursued them.

At this point, though, I think it's hard to know whether or not Scoop's problems are really associated with an enlarging tumor or not. And I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough about the interaction between diabetes and Cushing's to know whether it makes more sense to leave a trilostane increase on the back burner for the time being. My own thought was that perhaps the glucose levels would be more manageable if the cortisol level was lower, although your vet seems to be suggesting the reverse. So is it the chicken or the egg -- I don't know...:confused:

Anyway, wanted to let you know that I'm still thinking about you guys and hoping that things start straightening out before long.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Hope you and Scoop are both having a better day today.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

Hi Vicki,

If you have any luck finding a good deal on a green machine or similar, let me know:):):)

We bought a regular carpet cleaner and I wish I would have purchased the smaller one Sharlene was talking about. It seems much easier andmore handy!!!

[scoora]

Leslie-Thank you very much.

Addy-Sharlene gave me a link to the Bissell little green machine on Amazon. It was $80.99. I haven't look anywhere else.

Scoop had a BG curve yesterday. His numbers were high, one high 200s, rest 300s. The vet said even though they are high he didn't have any huge spikes like last time. Boy, is this confusing. Now because they are more even she wants to do an ACTH which he is past do for but she wanted to wait to try to get the BG's better. Will the ACTH give a true reading with high BG's? I know this isn't the site for this but this whole BG thing is crazy. Two curves before this one his numbers were lower but she raised his insulin one unit to try to get them a little better. Then his numbers went up and she raised his insulin 2 units. This time she didn't change it. I posted Scoop's numbers on the diabetes site. I'm just so... I don't know what word to use.

[BugsMum]

Hi,
Thank you for sending me good wishes for my little pug. And please give Scoop and kiss and a hug from me.
I was curious about something: You mentioned that the vet removed Scoop's ear canal. Could that be affecting how he responds when you call him? You said he often faces the wrong direction when called. Also, maybe his unsteadiness is in part to loss of hearing on one side?
My little pug lost sight in one eye first and someone told me that when you have only one eye you lose depth perception, so it becomes difficult to navigate. Close one eye and give it a try. Just a few thoughts, but this may shed some light on a few of his behaviours?

[scoora]

BugsMum-Thanks for the kiss and hug for Scoop. Yes, I talked to Scoop's neurologist about his behavior. He said it could be because of his blindness and not being able to hear on the one side and not too good on the other side that could be the reasons for the way he is or if it is the tumor. He said we will probably never know. Also, he has had problems with his balance since last July when he had Vestibular disease and he never lost the head tilt. He also has weak back legs from muscle wasting. He also has arthritis in his front legs. He is pretty steady in the house but in the yard is a different story.

[scoora]

Marianne-Thank you for the link. I wanted to respond to you before but when I read your post about your lab, it's been hard. It makes me cry. That is so heartbreaking. So sorry you and your pup had to go through that, Scoop's vet said we will probably just have to go by when he stops eating to tell he's had enough.(I don't mean food) She has him eating so much of the W/D food I think he might start getting tired of it. The other night he stopped about 3/4 of the way through. I got scared and my husband said he is probably sick of all that crappy food. I mixed a teaspoon of Raleigh's food in it and then he finished. I just get so scared over everything. You mentioned about centers that are experimenting with shorter courses of treatment. Are there some threads or links to these? I'd be curious to read about them.

Does anyone know of any research that is being done on Cushing's? Since nobody seems to know what causes it, I was wondering if it is being researched. Why do so many dogs get this horrible thing?

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Thanks for reading my post on Tipper. I am with you on the research. I have suggested before we all need to band together and get a research project started on this. It is the most heartbreaking of dog diseases because of the lack of research on it to provide good solid answers. I will help do it if anyone else wants to try to get this started. Think of all the dogs going undiagnosed and pet owners think it is old age. Many could be helped by this research development. Think of all the dogs that will get this disease after our dogs. There are so many with this disease I am shocked nothing real gets done about it. After researching the subject I was shocked and the numbers of dogs with this disease.

[scoora]

Tipper's mom-When Scoop's vet went to a conference months ago she printed out some notes for me. It said that between 90,000 to 100,000 dogs are diagnosed each year with Cushing's. That is so unbelieveable.

[addy]

Wow, are you kidding me? I would never have dreamed it was that many dogs.:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[molly muffin]

That is really sad. I wonder too though how many of those are inaccurate diagnosis due to thyroid, diabetes, or other illness. My friend said her dog was diagnosed with cushings, turned out to be a mass on the liver, that once removed her dog was fine. This was early last year. No problems since. It's only because they pursued the ultrasound that the realized the diagnosis was wrong.

I told her at the time, that cushings is like the new "it" disease for dogs. Just seems to be everywhere or maybe I'm just sensitive to hearing it now. :((

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

A couple of months ago I saw my dentist and his wife at Scoop's vet. Their one dog has Cushing's along with a heart problem. They told me they are not treating for the Cushing's. Too many babies with this terrible disease.

[scoora]

How many furbabies are on twice a day dose of Vetoryl? I saw the article where Dr. Peterson feels diabetic dogs should get twice a day dose. What I wasn't sure about is the amount. Does he believe in splitting the dose, like Scoop is taking 40mg., so would he get 20mg morning and 20mg at night? The IMS that Scoop saw in Nov. said she gives higher. I don't remember if she said 40mg morning and 40 at night but I think that was it. Just seems like too much. I just wonder if the split dose would help his BG levels. Any thoughts?

Do you think Scoop's high BG's will have an affect on his ACTH results?

I know they must have food with Vetoryl before ACTH. Do you feed the regular amount of food or a smaller portion? Just wondering what everyone does.

[Harley PoMMom]

From my reading splitting the daily dose is better for dogs that have diabetes and cushing's. I do believe that uncontrolled diabetes can skew ACTH stim results.

[scoora]

Addy-I saw the little green machine at Target today and it was $99.99. I did not see it at Walmart but that's not to say one around you might have it. I just looked back at the one on Amazon. The price went up. It's now $89.84.

[scoora]

Harley PoMMom-Thanks
I was hoping to hear if someone has any experience with diabetes and split dose of Vetoryl.

[labblab]

Hi Vicki,

I don't have a diabetic dog myself, but from my reading, most experts do recommend twice daily dosing for diabetic dogs. What this means, though, is giving approximately half of the once daily dose at twelve-hour intervals -- not doubling the once daily dose.

If I remember correctly, though, you're about ready to perform an ACTH test to see whether or not the current daily dose of trilostane has been high enough?

Marianne

[scoora]

Marianne-yes, Scoop is scheduled for an ACTH tomorrow(today), Tuesday. I'm worried because his BG's have been high. I hope that doesn't affect the results. Just seems like nothing is simple and easy.

I'm worried about Scoop. Tonight he was restless so I took him to the kitchen to see if he wanted a drink(he's been drinking pretty much lately). He stood at the water dish and did not take a drink. He then started to breathe real fast for maybe about 10 seconds. He stopped so I picked him up and I could feel him trembling. I was scared. Don't know what to make of it. Any ideas?

[jackiev]

Hi Vicki. I'm sorry I don't have any ideas for you, I just wanted to see how Scoop was feeling now. I hope all goes well with his testing today. *Hugs*

~Jackie and Ugga

[labblab]

Vicki, I'm afraid I don't know what's "up" with Scoop, either. I will be really anxious to find out how his ACTH testing turns out. It is true that his diabetic issues can affect the test results, but you have no other means to monitor the cortisol levels. So this is the best information that you can gather. Once we have those test results, we will put our heads together and do some more brain-storming, OK?

Hang in there!
Marianne

[scoora]

I took him out last night after that and then he went to sleep. I didn't see it happen again. If I see the vet today I will mention it to her(not that it will help). I get so frustrated. I wish things would go a little smoother for my "baby doll". Then I remember the vet said last summer it won't be easy with the 2 diseases.

OK Marianne.
I hope the vet realizes his BG's will affect cortisol levels. Well got to get ready to go for the ACTH. I guess I'll hear the results tomorrow. Then I'll post them.

Thanks everyone.

[scoora]

How important is it for cush dogs to have their blood pressure checked?
I asked the vet months ago if it was checked and at the time she said theirs was broken. That's something I just don't think about.

[molly muffin]

I think it is a good idea to get it done. I forgot to mention it to my vet but I want Molly's checked to.

The thing I read recently said that a dog with diabetes and cushings, is optimal to be on twice a day dosing, so as to limit the potential for insulin spikes that can happen on one a day dosing. I think that was Dr. Peterson's blog, the most recent cushings article, from Dec 2012.

Good luck today!
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Does anyone get their Vetoryl from Drs. Foster and Smith? Are places like that trustworthy that you get the real thing? I still get Scoop's from the vet. The prices are outragous.

Is there a thread that talks about where is a good place to buy Vetoryl?

[scoora]

What kind of problems can there be if the blood pressure isn't normal?

Scoop is currently taking 40mg of Vetoryl. He weighs 17lbs. If the vet would want to up it after his ACTH results, is that starting to get to the high end for Scoop's weight?
Scoop sleeps alot. Does the Vetoryl make them sleepy or do you think it's probably something else? It's been awhile but if I remember correctly Scoop slept more after his dose went from 30mg to 40mg.

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Jenny sleeps a lot when her blood sugar is higher

[addy]

Zoe is 17 pounds and is on 50mgs of Vetoryl but she takes it twice a day 30 in the am and 20 in the pm. There is no maximum dose of Vetoryl. Most dogs are controlled on 1-3 mgs per pound but some dogs may need a higher dose than that. Zoe has IBD so her gastro track would not be able to handle the higher doses once a day.

I would think if the Vetoryl is packaged from the manufacturer, the only thing you would have to worry about is possible expiration dates. To tell you the truth, I never even checked that to see if our boxes have one. If it is getting pricey for you perhaps you could consider compounding. We have not yet gone that route but may end up there.

If you dont mind me asking what are you paying?

[Harley PoMMom]

What kind of problems can there be if the blood pressure isn't normal?



If high blood pressure is left untreated, it can lead to blindness, heart disease, and kidney disease.

[scoora]

Harley PoMMom-Thank you

Addy-On 1/8 I got 30mg(30 count) for $93.75, 10mg(30 count) for $75.00 that was from the vet.
Where do you get your Vetoryl from? How much?
Is compounded Trilo the same strength mg as Vetoryl? Would he be able to just get the same dose on Trilo as on Vetoryl? There is a compounding pharmacy not far from us. The antibiotic Scoop was on for the infection in his calcinosis cutis was compounded there. They told me they compound Trilo for customers. Drs. Foster and Smith have a price per capsule. $1.55-10mg, $1.85-30mg. That's a savings of $28.50-10mg, $38.25-30mg and free shipping on orders over $49. That's quite a difference.
Just wondering what everyone else does.

[scoora]

I heard from the vet today with Scoop's ACTH results.
Pre was 2.0 Post was 5.2
Where can I find what normal is for being on Vetoryl? The vet said 6 up to something? was normal. So that would make Scoop a little low.

What bothers me is on 12/5(his last ACTH) his numbers were Pre 9.3, Post 10.1
His dose was not changed from Dec. till now but his numbers dropped drastically. Will they keep dropping? I remember in Dec Scoop's opthamologist suggested the vet wait to do the ACTH but the vet didn't want to wait. That was only a couple of weeks after Scoop started with his corneal ulcer. I guess those numbers could have been high because of that, right? Thank goodness she didn't up his dose at that time. The vet said today it might have dropped because of something with his BGs.

Scoop also had a JR wellness blood work done yesterday. The vet wanted to check his calcium because of his calcinosis cutis and putting DMSO on it. I will have to get those results in writing. She said everything looked OK. The one liver value stayed about the same as last time and the other one went down about 200 points.

[molly muffin]

Scoop's results are actually fine as long as the symptoms are controlled. Anything below < 9 on POST is okay if symptoms are good. If not then up the dose, but with the results still possibly dropping I wouldn't up the dosage right now. They say under 5 POST is good for hair regrowth, but its not necessary to be there. Many aren't. The symptoms and how he is doing is the main thing. When the vet said 6 up to something that is for a dog Not on Trilostane.
Dechra recommends a post of 1.5 and 5.5 mcg/dl, according to their website.

Numbers can continue to drop, so that is not abnormal. Yes if his last ACTH was during the cornea episode then that could have contributed to the numbers being higher I would think.

I'll let others talk about where they buy their vetroyl, but I know quite a few use compounding pharmacies to keep the cost down. Just make sure you have good, reputable one. Trilostane is the ingredient within in vetroyl. What you want is a good compounding pharmacy that is careful with the dosage so that they have the same amount in each pill/capsule.

Have you compared the price to the one you found on line, that is per pill? I didn't even know that you could buy vetroyl online.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Sharlene-Thanks. So even if you don't change the dose, the cortisol level can continue to drop?
I haven't asked the compounding pharmacy how much they get. I do know Drs. Foster and Smith are a lot cheaper than the vet. You do need your vet to send a prescription in to them to be able to get the Vetoryl.

Sometimes I wonder.The vet thought the 6 was the low. She also said if anything we would drop the 10mg in the evening but to wait till she consults with an IMS. I told her Scoop doesn't take 10mg in the evening. He takes all 40mg in the morning. That surprised me when she said that. I wonder if I missed something along the way. Something was said about maybe doing a split dose but she never told me to do it. Besides, the IMS splits the dose but she makes it higher not split what he is on. The vet and I talked about that.

Scoop was just restless. He circled around a couple of times then snuggled against my leg. He hasn't done that in a long time. I could feel him trembling. Until recently I would not notice any trembling at night. Just wonder why. He seems extra sleepy the last couple of days. Yesterday I thought maybe because of going for the ACTH but today he was the same way. All I do is worry about everything.

[Harley PoMMom]

Pharmacies do not sell compounded trilostane in dosage strengths in which brand-name Vetoryl is sold. So, if one is giving their dog 30mg of the brand-name Vetoryl, and then would want it compounded, the pharmacy could compound either 29mg or 31mg strengths.

We have seen many dogs here have their cortisol drop lower on a dose that was being given over a period of time.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[scoora]

Lori-Thanks. So there is a slight difference between compounded Trilo and Vetoryl. Do the pharmacies have to do it that way because they can't be the same as Vetoryl?

[molly muffin]

No there isn't any difference, between trilostane and vetroyl. Pharmacies just can't sell anything in the exact dosage that the brand name vertroyl comes in. I saw someone say they ordered theirs from 1-900-Pets-Med online. Diamondback in Arizona is another compounding pharmacy that many have used.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Vicki, my heart sank when I read that your vet is concerned that Scoop's ACTH result is too low. After his having been on trilostane treatment for these months, I would have hoped that she would know what the desired testing range is for a dog taking the drug. Per the manufacturer of brandname Vetoryl, the post-ACTH result should be between 1.45 ug/dl and 5.4 ug/dl, with it going as high as 9.1 ug/dl as long as a dog's symptoms are well-controlled. Scoop's test result was good, and no decrease is warranted. Since Scoop is diabetic, I've also been bothered that she hasn't pursued the twice daily dosing since it is recommended by so many experts. All in all, it seems as though she is kind of stumbling through the process. It would really be nice if you could get some direct input from a vet who has more experience with all of this, especially since Scoop still sounds unwell. Have you ever spoken directly with the IMS yourself? Would you want to try to arrange a consultation now? I am worried for Scoop and sure wish an expert could take a look at him.

As far as compounded trilostane vs. brandname Vetoryl, Sharlene is right that the effective ingredient should be the same chemical in both. But just so you'll know, compounded trilostane is not the same thing as a generic version of a brandname drug. Both brandname drugs and their generic counterparts are manufactured by pharmaceutical companies under FDA oversight of testing and inspection. However, there are currently no generic versions of Vetoryl for sale anywhere in the world, so brandname Vetoryl is the only version of the drug that is FDA-approved. Compounded drugs are instead prepared onsite by individual pharmacies and fall outside of FDA approval. Some recent studies have shown that there may be less consistency or effectiveness from batch to batch of drugs compounded by some pharmacies. And any inconsistency in the product could lead to less consistent dosing control. It is for this reason that some vets prefer that their patients use brandname Vetoryl and not a compounded substitute. Compounded trilostane is usually much less expensive, however, and we do have many members who have been very satisfied with their compounded product.

You are right in assuming that compounded products legally cannot be sold in the exact same dose as brandname Vetoryl. But you can buy either one online as long as you have a valid prescription from your vet. I'll try to come back later today and give you a link to a thread that lists sources with the best pricing for both types of the drug.

Marianne

[addy]

http://www.petapothecary.com/
This pet pharmacy is right near my house and was suggested by our IMS. They sell both compounded and name brand. I use the name brand Vetoryl from them as their compounded Trilostane is not much cheaper. I think you can do much better then the prices your vet is charging, they seem high. I cant find my last bill but we don't pay that. Alot of our members purchase from Diamondback Drugs in AZ when the use compounded. Not all compounding pharmacies are created equal so you need to purchase from a reputable pharmacy.

I do know that we all have read that it is easier to control blood sugars when the cortsiol is more evenly controlled throughout the day, which means twice day dosing.

I am not sure why your vet thinks a post of 6ug/dl is low unless it has something to do with controlling Scoop's diabetes. It is not low.
Yes, a dog's cortisol can continue to drop on the same dose but it also can go higher. Keep in mind hormones fluctuate so that is why we have a range of numbers to begin with. My Zoe was appx 6.2 in September, 10.2 post in October and dropped to 7.1 in January all on the same dose. ( I may be off a bit on those numbers, but you understand my point) She has bounced around when she first started on the same dose going lower, then gowing higher.

There can be a difference in Trilostane and Vetoryl as far as how much of the acting ingredient is in a capsule. With the name brand, it does not vary, so we know for sure that 10mg is exactly 10mgs. There was a study done where I think it was 5 different compounding pharmacies Trilostane capsules were tested. Not all of the pharmacies passed the test and the amount of Trilostane in a 10mg capsule varied. This is why we say only use a reputable compounding pharmacy.

Hope this helps a little. Oh- I see Marianne and I were typing at the same time.

[scoora]

Thanks Sharlene, Marianne, Addy
That all helps to understand better.

Marianne-a while back twice daily dosing was mentioned. I don't remember the reason we didn't pursue it at that time. I do know the IMS that the vet has been in contact with said she ups the dose and then splits it for twice daily dosing. Scoop did see that IMS back in Nov. We had a long visit. The IMS said she feels Scoop's vet is doing the right things. This was when we were trying to find out a reason for Scoop's weight loss. At that same time he also had a visit with the neurologist trying to see what his head tilt is all about. Then the following week he had the ultrasound and MRI done and then his ear surgery. That facility is over an hour away from where we live. We do have IMS closer to home. I wish we would have gone there originally but wth the neurologist thing we just did it at the same time. A while back I said something to my husband about talking to someone else and he didn't think it would make a difference. I'll see if I can print out that article from Dr. Peterson and talk to the vet again. I don't think she'll be against it but it seems to me she should be the one to suggest it. If the dose gets split, does another ACTH have to be done 10-14 days? Since he's on 40mg would the best be 20-20 or could it be 30-10? Sure wish Dechra made 20mg. It would be expensive to use 4-10mg. I guess that's when you check into compounding.

I just don't know what to think. I feel so bad for Scoop. All Scoop does is sleep or wait to eat. He has no interest in anything. It seems like ever since he totally lost his eye sight. I wish I could give his sight back and see if it makes a difference.
Be back later.
Thanks everyone.

[molly muffin]

I know this all sucks for you and for Scoop. If you do decide to go double dosage, then I'd try to keep it even to start with, just because of the diabetes.

Others here probably have more knowledge though on that. I know quite a few don't do the same, they might do more in the mornings and less in the evenings.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4592

link to discussions about purchasing Vetoryl at a good price;)

[NoonelovesmelikeNorman]

http://www.petapothecary.com/
This pet pharmacy is right near my house and was suggested by our IMS. They sell both compounded and name brand. I use the name brand Vetoryl from them as their compounded Trilostane is not much cheaper. I think you can do much better then the prices your vet is charging, they seem high. I cant find my last bill but we don't pay that. Alot of our members purchase from Diamondback Drugs in AZ when the use compounded. Not all compounding pharmacies are created equal so you need to purchase from a reputable pharmacy.

I do know that we all have read that it is easier to control blood sugars when the cortsiol is more evenly controlled throughout the day, which means twice day dosing.

I am not sure why your vet thinks a post of 6ug/dl is low unless it has something to do with controlling Scoop's diabetes. It is not low.
Yes, a dog's cortisol can continue to drop on the same dose but it also can go higher. Keep in mind hormones fluctuate so that is why we have a range of numbers to begin with. My Zoe was appx 6.2 in September, 10.2 post in October and dropped to 7.1 in January all on the same dose. ( I may be off a bit on those numbers, but you understand my point) She has bounced around when she first started on the same dose going lower, then gowing higher.

There can be a difference in Trilostane and Vetoryl as far as how much of the acting ingredient is in a capsule. With the name brand, it does not vary, so we know for sure that 10mg is exactly 10mgs. There was a study done where I think it was 5 different compounding pharmacies Trilostane capsules were tested. Not all of the pharmacies passed the test and the amount of Trilostane in a 10mg capsule varied. This is why we say only use a reputable compounding pharmacy.

Hope this helps a little. Oh- I see Marianne and I were typing at the same time.

Addy, Do you think I should ask my Vet for a prescript for Vetroyl instead of Trilostane so that Norman gets a true and accurrate amount? and maybe get it more reasonably and in a speedier fashion?

Sharon

[scoora]

Thanks everyone.
The vet called again today. She said she talked to the IMS and that nothing will change for now. She wants me to measure his water for a few days and she said her and the IMS talked about doing a fructosamine(sp?) test. That tells the BG levels for the past couple of weeks. I didn't know there was such a thing. She said it will be less stressful. I said what about splitting the Vetoryl dose. I mentioned the article from Dr. Peterson. She said she didn't think it was necessary at this time. Maybe she wants to wait till after that test and see how it goes. That's not for a couple of weeks. Then she said something about Vetoryl doesn't come in 20mg. Geez, I know that. That's where compounding would come into the picture, right? Using all 10mg would be so expensive. Even if would do 30mg morning, 10mg evening you would still think it would be better than once a day. I get so frustrated sometimes after I talk to her. I always feel rushed. I know she's busy and I can't get my thoughts straight. I'll be emailing the water measurements so I guess I can ask questions then. Nothing is easy.

[Trish]

Hate that when you feel like you cannot get your point across because you feel rushed, I have taken to having a list handy so I don't forget anything, even typed it into my phone. But hard to read if I am actually speaking to them on that phone :D:D Sending big hugs to Scoop and you.. what a great Mom you are!
Trish xxxxxxx

[molly muffin]

Seems like you learn something new on here all the time Vicki. I didn't know about that test either.
Hang in there! You're doing good.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Thank you Trish and Sharlene

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Vicki: from everything I've read the curves you've had done give you a lot more accurate information than the fructosamine test would. What good would an average of Scoop's blood sugar over the last several weeks do?

From everything I've seen people suggest saving your money on that test.

I think you are smart to push the twice a day dosing of the trilo. hang in there! Judi

[scoora]

Judi-I was wondering how much a test like that costs. I will see if I can question the vet as to what she thinks will be gained from the test. She said the IMS agrees with her.

[scoora]

12 years ago my husband told our daughter she could pick what kind of dog she'd like to have. She decided on a Pug. The last Saturday in Jan. 2001 my daughter and I went to a pet shop. I had been told they had a Pug there. As soon as we walked in the door there was Scoop. In the first pen as you walked in. He was 3.5 months old. We took that little guy home with us that day and we have been blessed for the past 12 years with so, so much love and happiness. Hopefully there is a lot more to come. It is so hard now with all his problems to see such a difference in him but he is loved more than words can say.
To my Scoop-Thank you Scoop for giving us such joy, happiness and love the past 12 years and for being "the best dog ever". We LOVE you so very much.
Mom, Dad and Molly

[addy]

Hoping you got some good cuddle time in with Scoop!!!!!

((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))), sweetie.

[scoora]

Thanks Addy-Always lots of cuddles and smooches with my Scoop.

[scoora]

Scoop trembles so much more lately than he used to. Last night he shook harder than I saw before. It lasted about 10 minutes or so. When he fell asleep it stopped.
Right now he seems to be sleeping but he is shaking a little especially around the shoulder area. Scoop has been doing something for month or two. I caught it on video on my camera and showed the vet. She has no idea why he does this. He'll lick his upper lip, nose a few times then he opens his mouth almost like he is going to yawn but he's not. It seems like he has phlegm in his throat or something is caught in there. He'll do this several times in a row. Anyone ever see anything like that? Also Scoop's ears and paws get cold so easily. The vet said her feet get cold easily, too. Scoop's never used to be like that. I don't like what I see happening to my "baby doll" lately. I get so scared.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie


He'll lick his upper lip, nose a few times then he opens his mouth almost like he is going to yawn but he's not. It seems like he has phlegm in his throat or something is caught in there. He'll do this several times in a row.

Squirt does something similar and I have asked her vets about it over and over - no one seems to have an answer nor seem very concerned about it. I decided it might be digestive, like indigestion that us old folk get at night ;). Maybe a little nausea as air licking is a sign of nausea and these meds can make their tummies feel a bit yucky even tho there isn't a negative reaction. Plus Squirt is an old lady - around 90 in human years - and I know her absorption isn't what it used to be nor is her digestion as smooth a process as it once was. She will sometimes make sounds and have movements that almost look like she is going to throw up, but doesn't and instead has this kinda "ACHK" hacking sound, then lays back down. She doesn't do the trembling, tho. However, she is on Lyso and Trilo is known to cause trembling so Scoop's trembling could be due to the Trilo.

I can't tell you the number of times I have taken Squirt's face in my hands, looked into her eyes, and told her this sort of stuff just can't keep happening as it worries her old mom to pieces. She just blinks, kisses my nose, and takes off for fear I am going to wash her face or something equally horrid. :D

Sometimes, I am taken completely by surprise at the depth of love we have for these little ones, the lengths we are willing to go to for them, and the unbelievable joy we find in our babies.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

Sometimes a pup will lip lick and yawn as a calming signal for themselves so I wonder if there is some sick tummy feeling or a bit of pain somewhere. Zoe does something similar when she has been sleeping awhile. The shivering could be from the Trilo.

I know it is so hard to see our babies change with illness. You have had to deal with a lot. I know how hard all of this is for you. I have had similar emotions over Zoe.

(((((((((((((((BIGGEST HUGS ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[labblab]

Hi Vicki,

Just wanted to tell you that my own Cushpup had weird tremoring episodes, too. He had a few before he was disagnosed, but they became a whole lot worse when we first started him on the trilostane. For him, it looked as though he was shivering and it was mainly across his shoulders and back (it was definitely different from the shaky back legs he had from muscle weakness). Weirdly, it happened most often when he was resting or asleep. It never actually seemed to bother him, but it definitely freaked me out. It finally stopped after a couple of months, and we never did get any explanation. I've always wondered whether it was just related to the big changes in his cortisol level -- first when it was skyrocketing before treatment, and then when it was coming down so fast after we started the trilo.

Marianne

[scoora]

Thanks Leslie, Addy, Marianne. It's good to hear what others think because all I do is think the worst.

Leslie-That ACHK hacking sound describes it. Like he's clearing phlegm. It made me smile what you said about Squirt kissing your nose and taking off.
I didn't know the air licking can be a sign of nausea.

Addy-It very well could be he doesn't feel well or is in pain. I just keep wondering about the tumor because I've read that the large tumors can give them headaches. He also has a lot of gas at times from that horrible food he eats. The vet has him eating a can of Hills W/D food plus a cup of dry Hills W/D. Plus he gets some chicken and carrots during the day.

Marianne-That's how Scoop started. He had a few tremors in his back end before he was on Vetoryl and after he started on it they just keep getting worse and worse. He has them all over his body now. I've seen them once or twice while he was standing still but they are usually while he is laying still. He USUALLY doesn't do it while asleep. Hope it doesn't start. He's been on Vetoryl over 4 months.

I'm so glad to have such wonderful, caring friends on here that take time and listen to what I am worried about. Sometimes I think I am just going crazy. I'm having a really hard time dealing with the worry and what's going to happen. Sometimes I wonder what will happen to me after Scoop's not here. I just don't know why I can't deal with it better. All I can think about is I have to be able to help him and I can't.

HUGS to all.

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

when Jenny had back leg tremors I thought it was the cushings and it turns out her blood sugar was in the 40's scary low.

we have too many things to worry about! hugs, Judi

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Tipper also does this. Especially when she first gets up. She will even wake up and do it, during her sleep. I am convinced it has something to do with the throat, as I have talked about Tipper's trachea problems, which I am not sure this disease has not caused. When there are so many doing the same thing it makes you wonder. Since not a lot is known about this disease it could very well cause this. It seems Tipper has mucus or something also. I really wish more was known about all this disease causes.

[addy]

Vicki if it is any way consoling for you, when Zoe had secondary glaucoma, the ophthalmologist said it is very painful for dogs and that Zoe had a horrible headache. She would kind of hold her head up, while laying down, and slowly blink her eyes and then shut them for a few seconds, you could just see the headache on her face and then finally she would put her head down and just go to sleep. So maybe Scoop doesn't have a headache as you fear:):):)

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki! I know everything seems to be scary with our babies. I know it is because we love them so much that it makes it all so much worse. Plus what we can build up in our minds, probably is much worse than the reality. At least I hope that is the case.
How is Scoops blood sugar? Have you tried testing it during one of these episodes? If nothing else you could maybe rule it out as a cause.
Hang in there! You are a good mommy and that is what Scoop knows. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Thank you very much everyone. Like I said before it is wonderful to have so many caring friends. I appreciate everyone being here to help me try to make sense of all this.

I don't know how Scoop's blood sugar is. I was never able to conquer the home testing when Scoop was first diagnosed. He was not happy about that whole thing back then and I don't think he would go for it now. It was never a problem up till now. So many times in the past few months I wish I would have been able to do it. His BG's have always been on the high side so I would be very surprised if it was low. Just hope his cortisol isn't still dropping.

Tipper's mom-I too wish more was known about this disease and all the problems it causes. I sure hope Scoop doesn't have a problem with his trachea.

Another thing Scoop does is he blows out of his nose. It sure sems like there is something in there that bothers him between him doing that and the "gaging" it reminds me of having mucus or phlegm. What gets me is if there is something wrong and something could be done about it but Scoop has to suffer with it because the vet doesn't know what the problem is.

Scoop is sleeping here by me and he is so restless. He keeps moving around
like he can't get comfortable. Sure wish he could tell me what's bothering him.

Addy-I see what you're saying about the headache. I haven't seen what you were describing.

Good night and thank you everyone.
Hugs to all.

[Trish]

I know what you mean, I have often wanted Flynny to start talking so I could know what he was feeling, maybe it is just uggh I got this phlegm in my throat or arrrh I am really sore and then we would know how to help them better and so would the vets. Kind of like treating little babies when they cannot talk and let us know where it hurts. Frustrating! Have a good sleep tonight you two :)
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I am with you on the concern of trying to do something with this issue before it gets worse. The problem is the Vet's have no answers. I do know that the nasal passages become narrowed in dogs with this disease. It is so frustrating to want to help your baby and nobody can tell you the cause or what to do for it. I feel your frustration, as I am there also. Tipper goes for an ACTH and blood panel today. She was supposed to get a urinalysis, but didn't cooperate in that dept. Wish us luck. Try getting a Vicks vaporizer that has an ultra violet light that kills germs. Turn it on in the room where your baby sleeps in. It has eased Tippers problems some what. Don't use a regular vaporizer, because of the germs that can spew into the air. With the compromised immune systems of these dogs if they would get a lung infection from bacteria, it could be bad. I got my vaporizer on Ebay brand new for only 36.00. I only have to fill it every 2 days and keep it on low. Just watch where it is blowing as it is a cold air vaporizer and you don't want to blow it directly on them. It is the one gallon square one which if you purchase anywhere else can be up to 80 some dollars and over. Let me know how your baby is doing. Sometimes Tipper does that gagging while sleeping and it wakes her up. God Bless you and your baby.

[scoora]

Thanks Trish. It sure would be nice if they had a way of letting us know what is wrong.

[scoora]

Tipper's mom-Thanks for the info. That is something to check into. I would have never thought about the infection from bacteria.

Wishing Tipper a good visit to the vet today. Hope all her tests come back with great results.

Big hugs to you and Tipper.

[Squirt's Mom]

I hope all goes well today! Let us hear from you when you can and rest assured the waiting room is crowded with all your family here.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

I have a question. I can't remember when this started. It might have been over the summer when all of Scoop's problems started. I just don't remember. I don't really think about it because he hardly ever does it. His bark has changed. It's kind of squeeky and higher pitched. Anybody know of any reasons why? That's something I have never thought of asking the vet about and I have asked her plenty of questions.

I put a few pictures in an album. They are more recent. You can see how Scoop has changed from my avatar picture. I want to get more pictures on sometime soon.

[addy]

Well, I remember Sona mentioned that about her doxie, Apollo. I think Zoe's bark has also changed somewhat. Though her bark did sound deeper and louder trying to scare of some door to door salesman not to long ago. When she is barking for chicken it is higehr and squeaky.

[molly muffin]

Well poor little scoop has had so much going on with him. I have no idea why his bark would change.
Poor little guy. You're right he sure has changed. You can really see the head tilt in the pictures. His skin looks better though don't you think? It's red but not furious red. More of a paler color. Hope that means it doesn't bother him as much.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

Addy-I remember when someone would come to our door, Scoop used to give it to them. Sure wish he could still do that.

Sharlene-Scoop's skin does look a lot better as far as the redness goes and his calcinosis cutis has gotten better. The cc on his back improved so much after his surgeon started using Mupirocin Ointment on it after his ear surgery. She had me keep using it at home for over 4 weeks. His skin is dark there but the scabs are gone. It was amazing how much better it looked after 3 days in the hospital. It's an antibiotic ointment and it helped with the infection in the cc on his back. His underarms didn't improve too much at first but that didn't have infection. His back started getting scabs and when I put on the ointment they would loosen up and fall off. His underarms still have all those scabs but they have dried up.
Boy, Scoop sure is restless at this time of the night.

[Simba's Mom]

Sending hugs to you and your fur baby, it's so hard to see them sick.

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Just read about the squeaky voice on your baby. It appears that he has a lot of the symptoms Tipper has. When he drinks water see if there is a funny sound he is making, and let me know. He could possibly have some of the trachea issues Tipper is experiencing. Tippers were detected on an xray, so maybe that is something you would want to discuss with your Vet. When I talk to my Vet I always tell him of any other dogs on this forum, or others who are experiencing the same problems as Tipper, or else he tries to pass it off as something else. This way he knows it is related to this disease, as most of these Vets know very little about the problems associated with this disease and try to tell you it is something else. One more thing, when Tipper first started with the throat issues, and snoring I noticed she tried to sneeze one day and couldn't. It is called an inverted sneeze, and goes along with the trachea problems. I immediately removed her collar and put a harness on her to relieve any pressure on her windpipe. Also I started with Manuka honey and coconut oil for the throat, along with the vaporizer. I am also giving her Glyco Flex, which helps build new cartlidge, which is what causes the trachea problems- the cartlidge has been damaged. Let me know what your Vet says about all this. Tipper is now sneezing fairly well, and so this has made an improvement. Good luck and God Bless us all.

[scoora]

Letti-Thanks. Hugs to you and Simba too

Tipper's Mom-Thank you. I was wondering what kind of funny sound is it when she drinks? It's hard to hear anything when Scoop drinks. He makes such noise lapping up the water. I know what you mean about the vet. Back in the beginning I would say to the vet, I read this on the internet or someone on the forum said that. She would say to me, you read too much. One time she said I should stay off the internet for the weekend. I said I can't go on anyway. That was when we had no power for 6 days after the hurricane. She tries to pass things off as something else just like your vet. When I talk to my mom about stuff like that she would say to me it seems like the vet just doesn't want to hear it. My boys have always done inverted sneezing. Not too often but at times. It's odd though weeks back Scoop did something like an inverted sneezing but a little different. I have to look back at my notes and see if I wrote it down. I can't remember exactly how it happened. I mentioned to the vet about it and she said she didn't know. I should try to video it but it hasn't happened since then. I didn't realize inverted sneeze goes along with trachea problems. Did your vet tell you that they go together? That way I can tell Scoop's vet that your vet said it. Scoop used to do a lot of snoring but since he's been sick he doesn't snore much at all, Raleigh does. Scoop does have those "gagging" issues and something is causing it but the vet doesnt know what. I have always used a harness on my boys not a collar. I will definately say something to the vet next week. She doesn't work Fridays. I want to email her about her thoughts on Chinese herbs. Jessica(Doccy) mentioned Doc was on them and the one is supposed to help keep the tumor from growing. They were prescribed by a neurologist at the University of Florida. Doc is supposed to be having radiation this week. Hope all is going well for him.
Thank you again. I will ask the vet and I will let you know. I will ask her if she thinks a vaporizer will help with the "gagging" issues. Come to think of it, Scoop hasn't done that today that I can remember. That's unusual. Spoke too soon. He just got up and did some gagging.
How is Tipper. Hope she doing well. Hugs.

[addy]

Hi Vicki, stopping in to give you and Scoop some hugs and to say hello.
I sure hope you are not having to deal with this frigid weather. Zoe is on a poo strike, she always refuses to poo if it is below zero:rolleyes:
Cant say that I blame her though.

We have a pug at work, she is a huge pug, her dad's name was Brusier.:D She does the reversze sneezing and tends to snort and make goofy noises.

Anyway, have to go feed the wee ones but did want to give you a hug
(((((((((((((((((((((hug)))))))))))))))))))))))

rumor has it we may get a hug icon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

[scoora]

Hi Addy-Thanks for stopping by to say hello. The pugs and I can feel the hugs. A hug icon would be so very cool.

Wow, Brusier, must have been a big guy. What's the Pugs name that's at work? Years and years ago I saw a Pug that was very big and I asked how much he weighed-50lbs. That's a lot. The most Scoop ever weighed was 28lbs. Now he weighs between 17.2 and 17.8 depending on what time of day, after he eats or after he poops. His lowest recently was 16.2-16.5. So he has gained a little. With all the food he eats you'd think he'd be fat.

We had a nice warm day on Wed. then yesterday the temp started dropping and it got so windy. The wind goes right through me-brrrrr. Probably Scoop, too. Right now the temp is 26.

With the food Scoop eats I don't think he will go on a poop strike. He goes at least 4 times a day. Sometimes 5 times. Poor guy. It's that W/D food he eats.
I was afraid he would start getting tired of it. Same crap everyday. He eats a full can and a cup of dry split between 2 meals. He does get chicken and carrots in between but the one evening he didn't want to finish the dog food so I took a teaspoon of Raleigh's food and mixed it in. He finished his food. I told the vet. She said I can mix in baby food. Anybody ever do that?

A hug right back to you and the wee ones. Have a good day.

[addy]

Bella is our work pug. I'll have to put her on the shipping scale to see her what her weight is now, she has been on a diet.:):):) Her dad was over 35 pounds, as I remember the story. We used to have a Rotty and he loved to help load the trucks; he would run in and out of the ltrucks backed up to the loading dock. One time, the shipping guys did not check and they closed him in the truck.:eek: Well, thankfully, we missed him in a few minutes, realized what had happened and called dispatch for the truck to come back. Can you imagine how shocked the shipping terminal crew would have been when they went to unload the truck and found a snaring Rotty inside?:D:D:D:D Anyway, Bella the pug, grew up with the Rotty so she also thought she was a Rotty too:D:D

Just make sure the baby food is 100% meat. I think baby food is pretty pure and we have quite a few members using it for finicky pups.

Have a great weekend!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Vickie,

Yes you can use baby food just be sure to read the ingredients and get those that contain only the food stuffs they say they do. In other words, if the jar says chicken then the ingredients should only contain chicken - no corn starch, no onion, nothing but chicken. I was shocked when I first looked at baby food for one of my pups at the additives they put in baby foods! :eek: Gerber was one of the worst. A brand called Beech Nut seemed to be the purest.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Addy-Bella(Isabella) is my grand daughter's name. What a cute story about the Rotty. Sounds like a great place to work with having four-legged "co-workers"

Addy, Leslie-I took Scoop to the vet's the other day to get weighed and pick up a case of his food. I was telling the receptionist that the vet said about baby food but I wasn't sure if she meant meat or veggies. She gave me a jar of Gerber Chicken&Chicken Gravy. The ingredients are Ground chicken, water and cornstarch. I guess I'll be checking out the Beech Nut at the store. What is the reason for no cornstarch? I know about no onion but don't know about cornstarch.
Thanks

[scoora]

I keep forgetting I have results from Scoop's junior wellness test that was done last week. Should I post the high, low results?

[addy]

yes!:):):)

[Squirt's Mom]

Cornstarch is just a filler, a thickener for the food, with little nutritional value - a way to make the actual nutritional content lower yet keep the same volume. In other words, they can use less chicken and still fill the jar and get the same price. :rolleyes:

Also corn is a known allergen for many dogs.

[molly muffin]

In other words, they can use less chicken and still fill the jar and get the same price.

Doesn't that just figure. hmmph

Yes definitely post the abnormals from the test. Always post those, then you have a record of it on here, (easy to find), and we get to dissect them. :)

hugs to you and Scoop and family
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hi Vicki

Mmm baby food, I bet Scoop is going to love that little addition to the food lineup! Hope you guys have a good weekend :D

Trish xxxxxx

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

That W/D is brutal for output! how does he like the baby food? Jenny eats Purina OM now. It is a diet food but she doesn't have as much waste. looking for an update. Judi

[k9diabetes]

Not sure if used to be different but Gerber's meat and gravy baby food is also very simple -- gound meat, water, and cornstarch. Same as Beechnut.

Those are the only two brands readily available where I am - my cat is on baby food.

Cornstarch would definitely be related to creating the creamy consistency.

Natalie

[scoora]

Scoop's been having some problems. I don't even know if I will be able to explain it. Hard to put some things into words. It is late. I will post tomorrow if I have time. Also I didn't forget about his blood test results. Just been having a hard time the last few days.

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I'm sorry to see that Scoop has been having a hard time. hugs

[labblab]

Me, too! Please do check back with us as soon as you are able.

In the meantime, sending big healing hugs to you both...

Marianne

[addy]

Oh Vicki, I'm sorry you are having problems.

Big hugs for you and Scoop

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))) ))))))

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
Sorry to hear Scoop is having troubles. When you get time let us know what is hapening. God Bless you both.

[Squirt's Mom]

Sending prayers and healing white light flying your way, Vickie.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[scoora]

Thanks everyone, I want to send the vet an email so I don't have time right now to post a long one. I'm so upset. I don't feel like I'm going to make it through all of this.

[Squirt's Mom]

We are right beside you, VIckie. Holding your hand, adding our strength and hope to yours. ((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))

[addy]

Breathe in, breathe out, dont forget to breathe, we're here with you sweetie.

[Trish]

Vickie, you are going to make it through this as you are such a good Mum to Scoop and always do your best. When you get a moment, let us know what's up so we can help if we can. BIG HUGS TO YOU AND SCOOP!
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

((((( Hugs)))))

[molly muffin]

Oh Vicki, I just hate to hear of Scoop having any further issues. He's been through so much already and so have you.
I can send you virtual hugs, I wish I could give you one for real. I think you need it. We all do probably, so..
GROUP HUG!!!
You do know you have a full group of people here who love and care about you and Scoop right? You aren't alone in whatever is going on. We'll do what we can to be by your side through anything.
Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[milosmom]

xoxox patty(milo)meka

[Squirt's Mom]

Still by your side, sweetie.

[addy]

I'm here too Vicki

[Trish]

Hi Vicki and Scoop

How's it going with you guys, hope you have some news for us soon as very worried for you, you sounded so upset. Let us know if we can help in any way sweet.

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

We're all here with you. Just so you know. Take care sweetie.

[scoora]

Hey everyone, Thanks for all the concerns and love. I'm sorry I haven't come back on sooner. I didn't mean to make you worry. I'm so stressed lately and I've been tired. The other night I tried to post and I dozed off and couldn't stay awake. Scoop has me worried. Saturday after he ate his supper I took him out to do his business, like usual. When we came in he started shaking so, so much. I never saw him shake like that before. When he would exhale it was so loud and you could hear how shakey he was. I covered him with a blanket and rubbed him and kissed him and talked to him for about 10-15 minutes. He finally started to calm down then another 15 minutes till he settled. Then Monday(I think it was) after he ate Raleigh was near him and he put his front legs on Raleigh's back like he wanted to hump him. He wouldn't leave Raleigh alone. So I took him out. I thought maybe when we came back in he would settle down. Nope, he sensed Raleigh was there and went on his back again. So we made Raleigh get out of the way and Scoop just started wondering around. He wouldn't settle down. Usually after supper he goes out and then comes in and lays aside of my husband on the recliner and sleeps. So this was very strange. He was walking all over and with him not being able to see I had to make sure he didn't walk into anything. The one time he stopped and my husband said it looks like he is going to poop. I said no, he's doing that "gagging" thing he does. Did that a few times. I sat with him and tried to settle him but he just wanted down off the sofa. I little more wondering around then went towards the recliner and stopped. He wanted to go on the recliner. Settled some but wouldn't sleep. My husband said Scoop kept leaving stinkies. I noticed later, too, that he was. Took him into my daughter's room. Still wouldn't sleep. I put him on my bed and I was laying there with him and he finally went to sleep. The other week the vet wanted to know his water intake for 3 days. It was 14-16 oz. Which was good.I kept measuring it. A couple days later he had 25 oz., then down to 18 oz. Yesterday it was 20 oz. During the night after the 25 oz. he had an accident in the kitchen. Last night after he ate his supper he had an accident in the kitchen before I could get him out. In the mornings he usually is sleepy but this morning he seems extra sleepy. He started giving me a hard time with his not wanting to eat his dog food. When I mix baby food(meat) or some of Raleigh's food he eats it. Guess he's had enough of the W/D crap. He eats so much of it I'm not surprised he doesn't want it. It worries me, what if he doesn't want to eat anymore. I am just so upset, worried and scared I don't know what to think or do.

[scoora]

Again, I am sorry for the worries. One small bright spot. Scoop saw his Opthamologist yesterday. She said he has no active ulcer. What I still see is scar tissue. It has gotten smaller but don't know if it will go away. Too bad that horrible tumor won't go away.

Anyone who's dog is on Vetoryl. Do they seem to sleep a lot? What makes Scoop sleep so much? Wish I knew.

[scoora]

I was just reading a link to 360dvm June 2010, where Dr. Feldman says his first choice for PDH is Mitotane. Does anyone know why? He says Trilostane is second given twice a day. I knows there's a report saying Trilo can cause the tumor to grow faster. Has there been any findings that Mitotane does that too? Scoop's vet never gave the option.

[addy]

Hi Vicki,

We are so glad to hear from you.:) from what I have read there is thought that Lysosdren (Mitotane) may also cause a pituitary tumor to grow but I'm sure one of the Administrators will come by and confirm that. Sometimes a vet will select the drug based on his experience with it or what other health issues may be going on with the pup. The drugs work differently, lysodren actual erodes the adrenal glands.Trilostane is an enyzme blocker and does not erode the adrenal glands and could make them larger.

With my pup's IBD issues we went with Trilostane because it is not as hard on the gastro system as Lysodren and I can start it and stop it whenever I need to. If you stop Lysodren, you would probably need to reload.

I think every endocrinologist has a different opinion and it is hard sometimes to keep it all straight.

((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

[lulusmom]

Hi Vicki,

Dr. Feldman prefers Mitotane (Lysodren) because he's prescribed it for 40 years and knows it like the back of his hand. He thinks it's great that there are two choices for cushing's but he'll probably always be partial to Mitotane. I think another reason why he is not a trilostane convert is because based on his own experience at UC Davis, trilostane is not as side effect free as it was tauted to be. My cushdogs were treated with both Lysodren and Trilostane and were well controlled with absolutely no side effects.

It is documented in veterinary text books that Mitotane can facilitate growth of a macrotumor so yes, both drugs can have this effect. If I knew for a fact that my dog had an expanding macrotumor, I'd definitely have to reconsider treatment with either drug. For me, resolving overt symptoms like excessive drinking and peeing take a back seat to slowing the rate of tumor growth and maintaining my dog's quality of life for as long as possible.

Glynda

[scoora]

Addy, Glynda-Thanks
Do they think treatment can cause the tumor to grow that much faster? I read the link about the Trilostane but didn't quite understand it all. I'd thought about what would happen if I didn't give him Vetoryl. I wonder if he would feel better. Like I said he sleeps a lot. If he didn't get Vetoryl I wonder if his Calcinosis Cutis would get bad again and would he get some kind of infection again? Also would Scoop's diabetes be less under control without Vetoryl? He also had quite a bit of muscle loss in the beginning. Would he lose more? Can Vetoryl be stopped and restarted again right at the same dosage if need be? Maybe I should talk to my husband about it and see if he could handle the excessive peeing. Then talk to the vet. Funny thing though, I asked the vet a few weeks ago about it causing the tumor to grow faster and she said, no. I sent her an email Tuesday and today and haven't heard from her. One thing I asked her about was Chinese herbs. Jessica said Doc was on them. Has anyone else used them?

[labblab]

Vicki, since Scoop seems to be feeling so poorly and acting strangely right now, I surely understand why you are trying to weigh all options. But what makes things especially hard is that you are trying to weigh an unknown (does Scoop have an enlarging tumor?) vs. a known (he is diabetic with erratic blood sugars and he has suffered from some very serious complications of Cushing's such as calcinosis cutis and vulnerability to infection).

The majority of dogs being treated for Cushing's do not develop tumors large enough to cause neurological problems. On the other side of the coin, because of the shape of their skulls, breeds like pugs may be more vulnerable. But the only way you can find out the size of Scoop's pituitary tumor for certain is to perform expensive imaging of his head. So short of that, you can only guess.

If Scoop's only issues associated with Cushing's were outward symptoms that are manageable for you, then I'd be more likely to say, "Sure, go ahead and stop the trilostane for a while and see what happens." But you are in the midst of struggling to gain control of his diabetes, and his history of calcinosis cutis is scary to me. Sadly, we have seen dogs on the forum here who lost all quality of life due to the effects of calcinosis cutis. Those skin lesions can expand and grow in severity very quickly. So in Scoop's case, I think a decision to stop his trilostane would need to be carefully considered.

My opinion is colored by my experience with my own Cushpup. We started trilostane treatment with him and initially he did well. But he started exhibiting neurological problems that we assume were caused by an enlarging tumor (don't know for sure because we never had the imaging done). We did consider stopping his trilostane, and even briefly did. But when we did so, not only did he still act abnormally from a neurological standpoint, but he also resumed his non-stop panting and did nothing but lie down like a lump on our cool hardwood foyer. So we started back with the trilostane and did not discontinue it again.

Quality of life means different things for different dogs. My boy was a Lab and came down with Cushing's at age eight. Prior to that, he loved to chase balls, jump in our car for a drive anywhere, swim in the lake, go up-and-down stairs a zillion times each day to be near us wherever we went, nap on the couch alongside me each evening. His Cushing's caused muscle wasting such that he could no longer climb stairs or jump in the car or jump on the couch, he panted 24/7, he no longer ran after a ball, he couldn't swim, in fact he could barely walk about the block. All that in addition to excessive drinking/peeing/appetite. So I may be repeating things that I may have written to you earlier in your thread :o, but even had I known that trilostane may have caused his tumor to grow more quickly, I would still have continued treatment, regardless. But that is me, and him, and the specifics of our situation.

Coming back to Scoop, one thing that still puzzles me enormously is why your vet has never tried shifting him to twice daily trilostane dosing. If you do opt to continue with the trilo, I'd want to revisit that question with her. I finally found one of the quotes I've been looking for in that regard. This was written by Dr. Mark Peterson:


In diabetic dogs with concurrent Cushing’s disease, twice-daily administration is essential in avoiding large fluctuations in serum cortisol concentrations during the day. With once-daily trilostane administration, adequate diabetic control will be next to impossible in many dogs with concurrent Cushing's syndrome.

http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2012/12/low-dose-twice-daily-trilostane.html

Marianne

[scoora]

Hi Marianne-Thanks, it helps to hear your experience. I really appreciate you telling me about your Cushpup. When he was on the trilo, did he have any energy at all? I don't feel Scoop did well since he started on the Vetoryl. When he started taking it he was tired and mopey and it seemed the higher the dose the more tired he became. I wish I knew why he's like that. I just wonder in my head if stopping it would change that. Then as his vision got worse he also stopped being interested in his toys. I wish I could see my old Scoop back again. He loved walking around our back yard, sniffing, and peeing everywhere. He just loved that and when you called him to come, he would look at you as if to say, I'm not ready yet, and he would just keep doing what he was doing. We would call him Mr. Independent. Or he would sit on the couch and just look out the window. Oh how I wish he could enjoy simple things like that again. If we knew for sure the tumor wouldn't press on his optic nerve, we would consider cataract surgery on his one eye. As far as I know right now Scoop is infection free and his calcinosis cutis has really improved and if he wasn't on Vetoryl I guess that could all change. I did mention to the vet about twice daily dosing because of his diabetes and I even mentioned the article by Dr. Peterson. She just kind of brushed it off and said something about Vetoryl doesn't come in 20mg. I guess because Scoop's dose is 40mg, a 10 and a 30. I thought well isn't that when you would check into compounding or is compounding as expensive as Vetoryl?Also the IMS Scoop saw in Nov, along with the neurologist, told me she believes if you split the dose you also increase it. I know Dr. Peterson doesn't do that. Scoop hasn't seen the IMS since then but his vet emails her and gets her opinion. I would hate to split his dose then have to increase it. Since I'm worried about it allowing the tumor to grow faster would more make it grow even faster? If you don't increase it could the cortisol go up? He is having a fructosomine test done Mon so we'll see what that shows then maybe talk about splitting dose.

In mid Nov Scoop had the MRI done that showed his ear infection that lead to the surgery and it showed his pituitary tumor. It wasn't on the radiologist report but I asked the neurologist if he could give me the measurements of it. He told me to the best of his ability with the equipment they had he said it was approx. 8mmx3mm. To me that's pretty large for a dog with a head like Scoop's.
The radiologist report said:There are no masses or other structural abnormalities seen in the brain, but the pituitary gland is enlarged and protrudes dorsally from the sella turcica into the hypothalamic region. Mild ventricular enlargement and enlarged sulci are most likely due to age-related brain atrophy.
Then down further on the report he says:The appearance of the pituitary gland is most compatible with a pituitary macroadenoma. The mass is not causing any significant mass effect or compression of adjacent tissues at this time, but if it continues to grow then it may affect the optic nerve, hypothalamus, or thalamus. So this is why I contantly worry about the tumor.
Thanks again Marianne