Tipper - adrenal tumor/breathing issues

[goldengirl88]

My 10 year old loyal, intelligent, and wonderful Jack Russell Tipper has been diagnosed with Cushings. She is all I have I have no family left. Tipper is like a child to me, and this has rocked me and taken me to my lowest point. She had all the testing done, I have a specialist that consults with my Vet, and she is on 20 mg of Vetoryl. The first day she was on it I saw a big improvement in her symptoms. She is going today to get her bloodwork to see if her dosage is correct. One of my biggest concerns is her breathing. It is especially noticeable at night. It appears she is having more difficulty than usual breathing. She snores, and at times has a throaty sound like dogs do after they have had a tube in their throat for anesthesia. I am wondering if someone could help me and explain what exactly is causing this to happen. I know it is the disease, but what specifically is this disease doing to cause her to breathe like this and snore? She has only been on Vetoryl since the 25th of August 2012. Will this subside after she is on it for a while? I am so frightened of this disease and losing the best companion I ever had. I find myself just breaking down several times a day. If this is managed by Vetoryl will she be able to live her life out? I am so terrified of this disease that I was afraid to look at the side effects of the drug, as she needs it to go on. I am hoping this drug does more good than harm. I love her more than life, and cannot even imagine my life without her. I need some tips on feeding her, and any supplements that are beneficial. I guess the things I should do, and the things I should not do! When Tipper was a puppy she had allergies and they had to use Prednisone at times to control them. This is what predisposed her to this. It is in her pituitary gland. Sometimes I see some neurological signs, she will go in a circle, and wag her tail real fast. She also is doing the licking. She has all the classic symptoms, panting, excessive water drinking, pot belly, hungry all the time. She does not have any skin issues as of yet. I also had her urine tested and it was fine- she is concentrating her urine with no protein in it, and no uti's. Once you start them on meds does this stop the muscle wasting? I thank anyone who can help me in advance as I am terrified of losing my girl. I will post her test numbers after my Vet visit today, as I see that helps.

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[Boriss McCall]

HI!
Welcome to the group. My dog just started on the meds. Today is his 3rd day. I have also noticed my dog snores more often in the last month since he was diagnosed.

Since I am so new to all of this I don't have any medical advice. I just wanted to say hello & welcome.

You will love all the people here & get lots of good advice & shoulders to lean on.

Hang in there..

[goldengirl88]

Thank You so much for the welcome. It is heart warming to know others will care and help you thru this.:

[3bostons]

Hi there, my girl Kona is 10 years old and has never snored in her life until this cushings thing, now she too snores up a storm. I asked my vet about it and she had no answer so, sorry I dont have an explanation for you either but just wanted you to know that it does seem to be related. I find comfort in it now, when I hear her snore I know she is at least sleeping comfortably. Today is her third week on the meds and things are going ok. She is also on the 20 mg daily.

Hugs, Kona and deb

[addy]

Hi and Welcome,

I am so glad members have been stopping by to welcome you. We have a bit of a list fo questions we usually pose, consider routine:D

Could you tell us how much Tipper weighs?
Could you tell us how Tipper was diagnosed?
Which tests were done and what were the results?


I am so glad you have an ACTH scheduled. Please let us know the results.

Dogs are treated with Trilostane to alleviate symptoms and usually, yes, are on it for the rest of their lives. The dose may need adjusting, sometimes, more, sometimes less but does indeed have to be monitored on a regular basis.


One of my biggest concerns is her breathing. It is especially noticeable at night. It appears she is having more difficulty than usual breathing. She snores, and at times has a throaty sound like dogs do after they have had a tube in their throat for anesthesia.

I am not sure why this would be. If Tipper had allergies as a puppy, sometimes, when we drop their cortisol, we will see issues that the dog was using the cortisol to self medicate, so allergies could crop up.
That is just one thought. My Zoe snores, but she has done that loudly with and without treatment.

I am so happy you found your way here. You will find a wealth of support and information. My Zoe was diagnosed 2.5 years ago. We started treatment with Vetoryl in June 2011. She has quite a few health issues but which makes treating her a bit of a challenege but I am able to do it, thanks to the wonderful people on this forum.:D:D

It will get easier.

[Bo's Mom]

Welcome and hello!!! I don't have any answers for you regarding the snoring and I don't think I have ever asked the vet but Bo (cushings) also snores. Snoring is not a typical thing seen in poodles and my other poodle doesn't snore. Hmmm, cushings related?? Idk but when he is snoring I know at least he is in a deep sleep and resting comfortably. Hope you find some answers.

[goldengirl88]

All of you are truly wonderful, and I am so glad I found this haven where you can let out you biggest fears, love your dog like you would a child, and have people support you for it. I have experienced "the real world" thoughts like " it's only a dog!" I am a retired account executive, so I am with Tipper 24/7/365. I typed a lengthy answer to the questions you all asked, only to realize my time was up and the message was gone. I have now checked the remember me box, so here we go. Tipper was not actually diagnosed by my Vet, but by me. She had started all the symptoms described in my previous message. I kept telling the Vet something was wrong and he kept explaining it away on other things. He is a country Vet, and probably not too much experience with Cushings. Finally I talked him into testing her for Cushings. Sure enough this is what came out of the tests:
The sonagram showed adrenals that were much larger than usual.
The ACTH test: Pre 6.4 Post: 27.9
Dexamethasone Supression Test: Pre: 7.6 Post 4 hours later was 1.3 then after 8 hours was 1.0.
Tipper was started on 10 mg.Vetoryl on August 23,2012. She was started on a low dose as she can be allergic to many things. The Endocrine Specialist (Dr. Mark Peterson who has the only clinic in the world for this), is who got to consult with my Vet, and he agreed. I started to notice an improvement in her after her 1st dose. By evening the symptoms were starting to come back. On August 25th she started on 10mg in the morning and 10 mg in the evening. She weighs 17 lbs. She had gained some weight due to all this, before she was 16 lbs. Her cholesterol which she never had a problem with shot up to 325 and tryglicerides to 572. The specialist said it was from the Cushings. The 2 doses seemed to help the symptoms from becoming full blown in the evening. Tipper had another ACTH test and early detection profile done yesterday. The results will be in tomorrow and I wil post them. This, I assume will tell us if we are managing her correctly, or if she needs the Vetoryl increased. I am feeding her Hills Science Diet WD. It is for diabetic dogs. She fortunately is not diabetic, but the nutritionist at Hills told my Vet this is what she should be eating. I also consulted one of the primary nutritionists in the country Shawn Delaney from California Davies. He said these dogs need a low density diet. I could not find a way to safely make her food so I opted for the Hills. The Vet is of the opinion that too much protein could cause kidney problems. I am not so sure it is the best method however. I have read many places where these dogs should be getting Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Selenium, and Fish Oil. These have to be done a certain way, and controlled a certain way and I am not sure how to do it. Does anyone have any experience with these supplements, and diets. I could sure use help. I am trying to be proactive, and good nutrition is a must to help her body deal with this. I really need to control her weight as she is starting to have some changes in her rear legs- like not laying the same way, and watching how she jumps. Xtra weight can make leg problems worse, so I have discussed Adequan shots and Duralactin with the Vet. He said after we make sure she is managed, they might be a good idea. Anyone that has used this, I could use some input, in the event we have to use them. Just one final note. When I got Tipper as a puppy she had a white tip on the end of her tail, hence the name Tipper. She is by far the most intelligent, crazy, and loyal dog I have ever lived with. I love this dog, and am willing to do whatever I have to do to insure I will enjoy her for years to come. This disease terrifies me, but everyday I wake up to her is a blessing. Thank you all, and bless all of you and your wonderful babies. Tipper's grateful mom.

[addy]

Well, Dr. Peterson is pretty darn good:D:D:D

I think you are off to a good start if he is consulting with your vet. The ACTH test if that is what was done will tell you if you can stay on the current dose or if it needs tweaking. Cortisol can continue to drop the first thirty days( and more) so sometimes we don't change the dose on the first stim test.

Not sure what to tell you about the food as I always read they need a high quality protein. But I don't think you want to change things or add things when you are first starting treatment.

I am sure members will be by to give their thoughts on Adequan shots and Duralactin.

I am so glad you found us.:):):):):):)

[goldengirl88]

Thank You Addy for the encouragement, I am trying to deal with this the best way I know how. I appreciate all the help, this is a godsend!

[frijole]

You picked the best specialist you could to help your country doc. Just keep yourself involved like you are doing to help monitor to make sure the country doc is 'getting it'... I say this cuz I live sort of in the country so it can be scary. ;)

Anyway... I have used both duralactin and adequan on two different dogs. Adequan I used with my cush dog Haley and it seemed to give her relief for her arthritis as she aged.. she passed at 16 1/2 and had no real leg issues .. just walked slower. I used adequan with Annie to help strengthen her weak legs (from a tumor) and I believe it was helping her. Problem was she wouldn't eat anything with any regularity and the pills were vanilla flavored and she hated anything sweet tasting. Anyway.. I do believe it is a good product. If you google it you'll be hard pressed to find negative reviews on it.

Good luck! Kim

[labblab]

Welcome from me, too!

And it is certainly true that it is your good fortune to have Dr. Peterson consulting with your vet. :)

One quick question, though. Are you certain that these are the correct numbers for the diagnostic LDDS results?

Dexamethasone Supression Test: Pre: 7.6 Post 4 hours later was 1.3 then after 8 hours was 1.0.

By any lab norms with which I'm familiar, this would actually be a "negative" result for Cushing's. Usually, the 8 hour result has to be higher than approx. 1.4 or 1.5 to be consistent with Cushing's. I am just curious as to whether Dr. Peterson had any comment about these results. I've read elsewhere that "negative" LDDS results are usually quite reliable, with only a small percentage of dogs who test negative on the LDDS actually having the disease. But especially if the disease is in the early stages, a dog may have a negative LDDS but return a "positive" on the ACTH. And that apparently is the conclusion re: your dog, especially in light of the bilaterally enlarged adrenal glands. But as I say, I'm just curious as to whether Dr. Peterson had any feedback about this LDDS test.

Marianne

[MBK]

As a fellow Jack Russell Terrier lover, I wanted to welcome you! I have two JRTs. Alivia is 14 1/2 years old and was diagnosed with Cushing's 1 1/2 years ago. Maxwell is 12 and, fortunately, healthy as can be. JRTs certainly are intelligent and can definitely steal your heart. Mine are like kids, so I do understand your attachment to Tipper. Actually, I think it's safe to say EVERYONE here understands that!

You are in the right place. The people here have a wealth of knowledge and are a great support system. Cushing's is a terrible, awful disease, but with the proper combination of treatment (prescription drugs, supplements and nutrition) it can be managed and many dogs live long, full lives. It is terrifying at first and certainly can make your head swim with all there is to read and learn about. You are definitely on the right track by having your vet consult with Dr. Peterson.

As for nutrition, I have mine on a high protein, low fat diet (Evanger's canned). Both of mine seem to be doing very well on it. Cush dogs can be prone to pancreatitis (Alivia had a severe bout a year ago and was hospitalized for 5 days), so a low fat diet is important. Along this journey you'll be the best advocate for Tipper and you'll figure out what works best for her. Relax. Take a few deep breaths. ;)

Looking forward to seeing some pictures of Tipper when you are able to post some!

[goldengirl88]

Mary Beth:
My god your dog in the picture is a dead ringer for my Tipper. I will post some pictures of her as soon as I can. Thank you for the encouragement and help.
Tipper's Mom

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Thank you for the help and support. Dr. Peterson did see the results of Tipper's lab work, and I am assuming that it is like you said that Tipper was caught in the early stages. The Vet just called me and said all Tipper's blood work came back good, and that the cortisol was in the normal range now. I will post the results after I get them next week. Thank all of you again!

[MBK]

So, Tipper looks like my Ali? No wonder you adore her so much! It's those soulful, intelligent eyes...they'll get you every time! ;)

That is AWESOME news that Tipper's bloodwork was so good! Can't wait to see a picture of her!!

[goldengirl88]

Mary Beth and Alivia:
I just noticed that you are from Pgh. I lived there my whole life and just moved about 5 years ago to the Ohio/ Pa border. I bet the doggies have lots of Steeler wear!! Tipper has many Steeler outfits, but they don't like them so well in Ohio. We think it's rather funny to wear them here. I am so glad Tipper's bloodwork cam back good. Yesterday she played with her toys, played ball, ran around the house, and went for a walk. She had an exceptional day, which I am grateful for. Every day I wake up and see her face I am truly blessed.
Tipper's Mom ,and Tipper- we call her Tipper the Ripper as she is such a ham, and runs through the house so fast you can barely see her!!

[goldengirl88]

Mary Beth and Alivia:
I posted the picture of Tipper in her car seat. She absolutely loves to ride in the car in this seat! She usually sports her Doggles and it makes people laugh to see a dog in a car seat, and having sunglasses on!

[addy]

Well, I am not Mary Beth and Alivia but the picture of Tipper is sure adorable.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[goldengirl88]

Thank you Addy. Tipper has been having a few "good days" playing with her toys and her ball, running through the house, and causing mischief. I hope she continues to do well, as I am always terrified somethng else will happen. It seems you are always waiting for the second shoe to drop! I noticed that on the days the humidity is up that Tipper has more difficulty breathing, when I walk her. At times I end up carrying her home. Has anyone else had this experience? These Vetoryl capsules are hard to get down her, I wish they were tablets instead, as these capsules tend to stick in your throat. I found a good way of giving them to her though. I stand over her like she was a pony, lift her head up and it is easer to insert this capsule going backwards towards her than from the front. She seems to be aware that this is helping her, and never fights me. This dog is such a blessing to me I wish she could live to be 100.

[MBK]

I am BEYOND thrilled to hear that Tipper is doing so good!! I agree, I wish they could live 100 years, too. It is so unfair that even under the best of situations, their lives are so short. I once heard that is because dogs are born knowing the things it takes most people a lifetime (if ever) to learn.

Sounds like Tipper is doing really well at taking her medicine. You're lucky! Alivia is a master at trying to avoid any meds!

Love the picture of Tipper in her car seat, but I would really love to see it bigger. When you get a chance, please see if you can add to your page in an album. It's pretty easy to do.

So you are from Pittsburgh originally?! Small world. I actually live in Pittsburgh, but don't follow the Steelers. I think I am about the only one here that doesn't, so don't tell anyone! :D

Again, great news at Tipper's improvement. You take such good care of her.

[goldengirl88]

Tipper has been doing ok on her Vetoryl, the symptoms are subsiding, but in one of my posts I said I was waiting for the "second shoe to drop", well it has. I noticed Tipper having some neurological signs. She would put her head low to the ground and turn it to the right, then go in a circle and fall down. I have noticed this 2 times in as many weeks. I had seen her months ago before she was diagnosed, go in a circle, and thought she was just fooling around.
Since she had pituitary dependent cushings, I assumed it must be a tumor on her gland pressing on her brain. I am guessing these episodes are seizures. After reading the Macro Tumor material on here, I have just sunk to a new low again. After foolishly thinking I could manage the cushings and she could live her life out, I just got a punch in the gut from this. I am wondering if anyone has had experience with this, and radiation treatments?? Is it even worth considering this. I have just cried all day over this. I somehow thought I could maintain her for a few more years, and now am feeling quite hopeless again. I need some advise. Thank You all in advance for your help, as I am falling apart again.

[mytil]

Hi Tipper's mom,

Here is a link just in case you missed it about macro tumors - http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3567 and are some great links to in this thread - http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229.

Has your vet mentioned performing an MRI to determine if the tumor is growing?

There are many here who have experienced this and I know they will check in shortly.

I do not have any direct experience in macro tumors, but it could be something all together different. My girl exhibit this behavior and it turned out she had a bad ear infection and this was also throwing off her balance.

Keep us updated and big (((hugs))) - we are all here for you in sorting this out.
Terry

[goldengirl88]

Thank You Terry I will make sure the Vets checks Tipper's ears again to see if it could be that.

[Maya]

Hello there! I think that when a macro tumour is present, there are a few different symptoms together that present themselves. They come on gradually and can be very vague. I have just posted my story over in the thread which Terry gave you the link to. Like you said, get his ears checked out-it could easily be something as simple as that. Just keep an eye on him for now and take note of anything else unusual.
As for treatment (if it is a macro) well.....it's a hard call. It depends on a lot of things. How old is Tipper? How strong is he? Have you got the money? It's a very...and I mean very expensive procedure! Like I said, don't get yourself paranoid just yet. When I was researching Maya's symptoms, I found Tonnes of illnesses with the same symptoms. It's hard to know.....
Hugs from Leah and Maya

[goldengirl88]

Maya:
Thank you for the help. I am going to look up the other things that present with a macro tumor. I will have her ears checked the next Vet visit.

[molly muffin]

Don't go macro just yet. Have the vet do a thorough checkup and blood work to see if anything is off that might be causing the strange side effects you're seeing.
Then monitor to see if the effects are progressing or not.

I love the pictures of your crew btw. What a great bunch!

hugs,
Sharlene

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Thank you for the help I truly am going thru this by the seat of my pants. This is so scarey that I cry all day. I cannot imagine my life without my precious Tipper. I have Lupus and she has been with me thru all of it. I think I am alive today because of the happiness she brings me. I am not sure about getting an MRI. I am scared to death to put her under, and the stress is getting to her with all the tests. Anyway, if you don't have thousands of dollars to treat the tumor, what good is the MRI? I don't think I could put my dog thru radiation anyway. I am having a hard time pilling her now. She is resisting me. I called Dechra and they said absolutely don't let her chew the capsule, which is what ends up happening. Does anyone have any good ideas as I could sure use some. Thank you all I would be lost in space right now if it wasn't for this forum.

[molly muffin]

I don't think you need to think about an MRI unless any other possibilities are ruled out and then you have to consider whether or not you are going to be able to treat it if it is macro. There really isn't much that can be done if it is. Prednisone for the swelling is a normal treatment.

I'm sorry that you have Lupus to deal with on top of this but how great that Tipper has been through this with you. I know it's a hard disease to deal with.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[Squirt's Mom]

You can try things like peanut butter, cream cheese, plain butter - anything that is soft enough to form around the pill and that Tipper really likes to eat. Sometimes these things will help disguise the pill and help it slide down plus make it seem like treat-time instead of pill-time. Some pups will gladly take the meds in a Pill Pocket - my Squirt hates those things! :rolleyes: If all else fails, there is a product called a Pill Shooter that literally shoots the pill down their throat.

I want to tell you that I fully understand your feelings about Tipper. My Squirt saved my life when I couldn't save myself. For nearly 15 years, she has been the one constant in my world; always by my side, always the one to come kiss my tears, always the one to bring laughter and hope. When she was diagnosed with Cushing's, I thought my world had ended. Instead, my world opened up to such wonder and magic like I never imagined. We have made some wonderful friends from all around the world and I have learned about things I would have never given a second thought to before. Tho I still fear "the day" I know is coming, Squirt and I are even closer, our bond even stronger. Most importantly, we are never alone...and neither are you and Tipper. Your K9C family will be right by your side all the way, holding your hand, lifting you up when you fall.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

I am so glad you brought this to my attention. I have been giving Boriss his pill in Peanut butter with a green bean on top. He has been tired of the peanut butter lately. yikes! I think he might have chewed a few pills this week. :o

Good luck with sweet little Tipper. The word Macro is the scariest word.:( I am hoping the best for you & Tipper. I know what you mean about your baby pulling you thru hard times & being there for you. Boriss is my world...

[goldengirl88]

I thank you all so much! I cannot do this without you. I am terrified every time Tipper does something odd. I am always worried I will wake up and she will be gone in her sleep, as there are many things I need to say to her. She is my constant companion, and her strange aloof behavior saddens me. Sometimes she seems to not know where she is. I feel like I cannot make it without her. Thank you all for being there to help me go on with this. I had never heard of this disease before, and it is the most horrible thing ever. It worries me that since Tipper has the pituitary dependent cushings that this tumor is growing in her head, and the Veteroyl can only help the cortisol. I am afraid to even look and see if these tumors are fast growing, as I will just cave in. Thank you all again I need your support more than ever, and my Tipper needs your prayers.

[Boriss McCall]

we are all here for you.;) It is a terrible disease & can be over whelming. I am glad we all have each other & the ones who came before us with all the knowledge. I will be saying prayers for you & your sweet Tipper.

[goldengirl88]

Boriss:
Thank you for thinking of us. Do you happen to know the supplement you can use to help gain back muscle? If so does it make them sick in any way? Thanks for your help.

[Boriss McCall]

I don't know much about all the different supplements. I haven't tried much with Boriss cause he is so sensitive to everything. I am sure someone else will come along with more info on that. ;)

I do use glucosamine for my dogs joints. I have a bulldog with some hereditary issues & it seems to help her a lot.

[Maya]

Glucosamine Condroiton and fish oil can help with leg weakness.It's best to give these supplements after a meal-on a full stomach. I remember Maya had severe weakness in her hind legs before being diagnosed with Cushings. Once she started the treatment, it got better.
Leah and Maya

[molly muffin]

hmm, I don't know of any supplements that help gain back muscle, but maybe someone else here knows of something. All I can think of is slow steady exercise.
I give Molly glucosamine for joints and liver supplement. None of those have ever made her sick.

Hang in there. Try to find that inner calm place that is one of strength. This is usually a long road with cushings or any other kind of sickness with our little ones. Slow but steady as they say, wins the day, and I hope that this will be true for all of us.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[goldengirl88]

To Everyone:
I found the supplement for the muscle wasting- it is L Glutamine. I am going to ask my Vet if it will help and if it is safe. I just don't want to cause any stomach upset, and make the Vetoryl come up.

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
I did some research on the L Glutimine- good thing I did as you are not to give it to a dog that has had seizures. For others it was said to be helpful and definitely helpful if the dog get pancreatitis.

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Tipper's mom

Pituitary tumors are usually benign. I think less than 5% become/are macros. A more common reason for strange behaviour is ear infections as others have mentioned. When is Tipper's next ACTH test due? Just wondering if her collapsing might be because of rear leg weakness. As someone who has witnessed both focal motor behaviour seizures and grand mal, what you 've described doesn't really match what I've seen. But as you would have noticed, all of our fur babies do things differently.

Jane, Franklin and Angel Bailey

[Franklin'sMum]

Oops, forgot to add that Cushing's can cause an enlarged liver, which in turn compresses the lungs. Due to that, a cush pup often pants more.

[goldengirl88]

Franklin's Mum:
First of all thank you for the help. I am so scared Tipper has a large tumor that I cannot sleep. She gets her next ACTH test on October 10th. Both times after having this test she did this behavior. First she put her head down low then to the right and started a circle, her tail wags 100 miles an hour, and then she fell. Her one leg in the back kind of gave way or she put in that way to go down, I don't know which. It only lasts seconds- was behind her so I can't see what her eyes were doing. She is still jumping up on the bed, but I have noticed some reluctance to do so. She is still doing several daily walks for exercise. I felt her back legs and the rock solid muscles she had before have some what diminished. Jack Russells seem to have tiny springs in the back legs and they can spring up and up many times when excited etc. Every once and a while she still does that- maybe when she sees her food is ready to eat. I don't know if it is back leg weakness. Isn't that supposed to subside with treatment? She has been on her Vetoryl for a month now. Prior to that I noticed no weakness, so why would she develop it now??- I might have mis -understood, but I thought the muscle wasting stopped on treatment??? I will have her ears checked again to make sure of no infections. What are the symptoms that usually present when they have a large tumor? If you can give me some examples I can see if she has ever had any episodes of what you tell me. I am so new at this I do not know what to look for. Could the ACTH tests some how cause this? My regular Vet is not real educated about this- I told him she did this and I don't think he knew an answer to it. Anyone I would appreciate input from you, and if you think I should have an MRI done please let me know as I am grasping at straws here. I thank you all in advance for your patience and understanding as I am off the richter scale with this. I just want to proceed correctly and do whatever possible in a timely manner to help my dog live her life out. I am afraid if this is a tumor causing this that that will end her life, if I don't try something. Are these tumors fast growning??

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

Just in case you missed this link in an earlier posting, here is a thread that has been started and maintained by members who's pups developed a macro. Their stories may help you determine if Tipper does fit the profile or not. Without obvious signs, the only way to determine the size of a pituitary tumor is either via MRI or cat scan...and this would need to be performed several times to gauge the growth of the tumor, if any. It can get quite expensive unfortunately. So unless there are strong clues that this is happening with Tipper, this is something I would just keep on the back burner for now.

Macro thread -
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3567

Muscle weakness caused by the cortisol can take some time to resolve. That and hair loss are often the last signs to go away. Trembling can be caused by the Trilo itself; this is listed as one of the side effects of this drug and we have seen it happen here in our Trilo babies. Most of the time, this passes as treatment continues but there are always those pups who cannot handle one drug or the other and have to switch. From the Dechra technical brochure -


Adverse Reactions:
The most common adverse reactions
reported are poor/reduced appetite,
vomiting, lethargy/dullness, diarrhea,
and weakness

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

You can find much good info in our Helpful Resource Section -
http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Some pups will react to the ACTH test itself and be "off" for a day or so after but this will pass quickly as the stimulating agent leaves the system.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Squirt's Mom:
Thank you for the help you gave me a lot of good information that I will be checking into.

[Squirt's Mom]

Keep in touch, 'k? Regardless of what you learn from the vet and testing, you and Tipper are now part of our family. And some of us just might come looking for you if you disappear. ;)

[Lady's mom]

Has anybody heard from her?

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
I am still here, haven't been on here as much. Sometimes I can't help, it but it depresses me worse than I am, to hear of some of the furbabies passing. Tipper is still holding her own, but she is so fat in the tummy. I thought the Vetoryl would stop that , but it seems she is larger than she was. I do give her Hepato Support and Vitamin E. She will have another ultra sound on Oct. 2nd. I want to see if her liver is enlarging or what is going on. She is on a low fat diet and that is all she gets so I don't think she put weight on- I will get her weighed also. I am going to have the ears checked again to make sure of no infections. I have already spoken about the circles she was doing. I was going to get her an MRI, but don't think I could have radiation, or the operation to remove the tumor, so I am just contemplating my next move. I called and the MRI is 1800-2400.00 so that is a lot of money to spend if you aren't going to do anything with the results. I guess I just don't know what to do at this point. She hasn't had any more macro symptoms since the last ACTH. She has to have another ACTH on Oct. 10th and that is scaring me because of the behavior she does afterward. Just don't know where to go from here. If anyone has any suggestions I am up for them. I hope everyone has a nice weekend with their babies as fall is coming where I live in the Northeast of Ohio. Great sunny, but cool day to walk my Tipper, as she is sensitive now to the hot weather. Thanks you for asking about me.

[molly muffin]

Hi.
How are Tippers other cushing type symptoms doing?
What has your vet said about the behavior that you have noticed?
When the ACTH test is done, there are quite often various symptoms seen that do not manifest themselves at other times. This is in direct relation to the test. They usually go away in a day or so though according to those who are going through testing right now.
I would mention this to the vet too and see what his and Dr. Petersons take on it is. Really if there is any doctor in the world that you want to have interested in your case, if is your specialist.
I think what you need is a heart to heart talk with your doctors and see what they think.
I know it can be very sad when things are not going well for all our babies on here. It is so very heartbreaking some times, but for myself, I cry it out, sometimes a downright big bawl session even, and then go on to offer whatever support we can. You know we totally understand that some days can be made worse reading everyone's thread and so, I'd suggest that you limit yourself to what you can. Your own thread for example or just a few others. We do not want you to be more upset to come here. We want you to feel supported in whatever decision you make at any given time and to help you if you have questions that someone here might have the answer to.

BIG HUGS, we will all get through this :)
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene and Molly:
Thanks for your support. I have days where the crying just comes on me numerous times a day like it will never stop. I have stayed away from my neighborhood in general as they do not understand when I break down, and I don't want to keep explaining my situation to them. I feel like an idiot walking down the street crying. It seems when it is about an animal, people think your behavior is out of line cause "it's only a dog." I live and breath this dog and have for 10 years, so it goes up my spine when someone says that. She is the reason I keep going. She has held me together thru my Lupus ups and downs. So rather than have people try to make you feel bad about crying over your dog I have chosen just to do walks with her and skip the neighborhood chit chat for the time being. Then if I break down, only I see and hear it. I don't know I have a soft spot for all creatures, and always have since childhood. I am hoping against all odds that my Tipper does not have a macro tumor. I pray to God many times a day to take this awful disease from Tipper and heal her. I still believe in miracles, so hopefully this is one miracle I will see in my lifetime. I wouldn't even ask to have my Lupus healed, but I would ask for my dog instead. It is hard to keep this off your mind, even when others tell you to stop thinking about it. How do you turn your mind off? You simply can't. I do try to keep busy, so I don't go crazy with this. When something you love so dearly can be gone in the blink of an eye, it is hard to come to terms with it. If I could have just one wish it would be that this terrible disease was irradicated, and everyone on this forum got their babies healed. I am praying for us all.

[molly muffin]

Oh sweetie. :( Hugs. I know this is hard. I bet there are some of your neighbors that have dogs too that feel deeply for their own dogs and would be understanding of how upsetting this situation is for you. It would be so helpful to you to have some support people around that you can walk and talk with and who will just share that tear or two with you when needed. Please don't distance yourself from friends and acquaintances. Just do what I do and don't go into the details with those who aren't as empathetic as others. You know, "well, the situation is still very worrying" type answer and share with those who are understand.
I hope you are having a good weekend and sharing a few laughs with Tipper. Just as it can be worrying when they do weird stuff, it can also be funny sometimes, and we have to often find the humor in the worst of times to get through. :)

hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

:( I know how you are feeling. I am so happy about Boriss's progress. But, in the back of my mind that ugly Macro word pops up & I have to force it out.

It is SO scary to think about. I am trying my best to live in the present with him. It is hard & I have cried myself to sleep a lot. I am sure everyone on this board has done the same at one point or another.

I wish people weren't so insensitive. You just have to ignore the ones that don't understand.
I am glad you have us. I would hate to think you are doing this all alone.

When I am really getting upset about this disease or thinking about the Macro I just pray for God to give me peace.

I hope you have a good day with your baby. :)

hugs

[MBK]

Hey Tipper's mom (aka someone else owned BY a JRT),

BTW, do you have a first name? I feel kind of funny calling you "Tipper's mom" all the time! ;) I haven't checked your thread for awhile and missed that you were having more problems. I do know what you mean about sometimes needing a break from this site as it can sometimes seem overwhelmingly sad. I cry every time I read of a dog lost here whether or not I had the opportunity to connect with their person.

I am not at all familiar with macros and I am not qualified to give you any advice. I can tell you my experience with Alivia, though. She has had two ultrasounds. Neither cost nearly as much as you've been quoted! They were around $500, so if you opt to have one, you may want to consider a road trip to Pittsburgh. Ali had an enlarged right adrenal gland which is "suspicious" for an adrenal tumor. The vets that did the ultrasounds were not in total agreement of their findings and so I really do not know for sure if that is what she has. I considered getting a third opinion, but as her regular vet said, then I would just have to decide who I believed. I KNEW that at her age I would not risk putting her through such a major surgery. So, my point is, you are right to consider what you will do with the information. You kind of have to weigh the definite benefit of having all the information you can to make informed decisions against the negative of putting them through too much unnecessary stress. You are following your heart and so will not make any wrong decisions.

It is 1 1/2 years since Alivia's diagnosis. She is not the same as she was, but neither am I. :p She is an old girl of 14 1/2 and has slowed down dramatically. Hard to see such a change in active JRTs. I have chosen (so far) not to treat Ali with any medications, but that has risks, too. Fortunately, Ali seemed to have gone through a remission for awhile (which makes no logical sense). But, she definitely has symptoms returning again. There are similarities among everyone here, but there are no two stories exactly alike.

You know Tipper better than anyone and you will always act in her best interest. Don't ever doubt that. Accept, though, that there will be changes in Tipper. I think we always think of them as our little babies and forget that they are aging at a much faster rate than we are. :(

Hang in there.

[goldengirl88]

MBK:
Thank you for understanding my situation. It is really hard to see any dog go thru this, but especially JRT's since they are among the most active of dogs. I am handling the changes, but the things associated with a tumor I am terrified of. I live in the country now, and am scared to death of an emergency situation with Tipper, and no vet to help me. There are no animal hospitals close enough for an emergency. That has become my greatest fear that in an emergency I will not be able to get Tipper help. I never knew how wide spread this disease was. It is a shame that there are not more break throughs in the fight against this disease. Most average people are not even aware of it. Makes me wonder just how much is being done on research to help these poor animals. If it were only the Cushings symptoms, I would say Tipper is doing well. It is the other stuff concerning the tumor that is hard to take. She will be 11 on October 4th God willing . My only wish every day is that I can manage her symptoms, and that she could just grow old and go that way. I could handle that better. These dogs do live longer than others, sometimes to the age of 18. Prince Charles had them up to 19 years old. If she were a larger breed that had a short life span, I think that woud be a little easier to take. When you know she could have many more years ahead of her, it is devastating. I feel robbed of the wonderful times that were yet to come with her. I wish they could find a cure for this. It would make a huge impact on animal lovers faced with this situation. I am leaning towards not having Tipper have radiation, or an operation. I think that would be more for me than her, and I cannot see her suffer any more than she already has with this. I need her, but I am not willing to have her suffer thru things like that. I guess everyone on here has that demon to wrestle with. I am sorry to hear Alivia's symptoms are returning. I pray that she continues to do well, and goes into a "remission" again. My name is Patti by the way, sorry I forgot to tell you that. I wish for everyone on here the strength to get thru this with their babies. All we can keep asking for is another day.

[goldengirl88]

Boriss:
Thanks for thinking of me. When I get scared that is all I can do also, is pray to God. I hope some day this disease will no longer take the lives of our babies, and that someone will find a cure. There are far too many people in the same boat as us, and they all deserve our sympathy and respect for fighting this battle with their precious babies. No one on here said it was going to be easy, but I didn't know how extremely draining it would be either. This forum helps so much more than words can say. You can pour out your greatest fears and people come to rescue you. I can't thank everyone on here enough, especially the ones who dedicate the time to help all the newly devastated members. You get on here and you are "shell shocked" not knowing where to turn. The generosity of the members with their time in helping is amazing. I have often thought animal lovers are among the greatest members of society. The compassion you all show daily is admirable. I hope for all of us the strength to fight the fight. I pray for us all.

[MBK]

Hi, Patti.

Nice to meet you. ;) Did I miss something? I am not sure where you got to the macro tumor diagnosis and the fear of that? Sometimes the internet is not a good thing. I know I have had both myself and Alivia diagnosed with some pretty awful things which, fortunately, turned out to be completely wrong! I know when Ali was first diagnosed I watched every move she made and sometimes scared myself to death. I still watch her way more than the average pet owner - I think everyone here does that. We can't help it. Try to just concentrate on what you know to be true and treating that.

This place can be a lifesaver for sure. There are a lot of GOOD people here, with the same concerns. They've certainly helped get me through some bad times with Alivia. There are a lot of ups and downs in the battle against Cushing's. I, too, feel frustrated that there doesn't seem to be much progress being made in its treatment.

Try to focus on enjoying your time with Tipper, as I know you do. If you can manage most of her symptoms, you are doing great!

[goldengirl88]

MBK:
In one of my posts I talked about Tipper going in circles, the wagging of her tail a hundred miles an hour, then sort of falling down on her right rear leg. She has had several episodes of this- even before she was on the Vetoryl. I read the thread on macro tumors and this is one of the symptoms. She also does the pacing, and staring into space. Sometimes it is hard to wake her up. These are all symptoms according to the material on this thread. I don't know what else could cause it except an ear infection, and she was just checked by the vet, but I will have it done again on Tuesday as she gets her sonagram again. She just did it a few minutes ago when I took her outside. It always starts with the tail wagging rapidly. I read somewhere that a vet told someone with a cush dog that the dogs brain stem was being compromised. I am just scared to death of the worst case scenerio. It would make sense that this is what is happening. So she has had 3 episodes in the last 3 weeks. That is why I am thinking macro, and it scares the day lights out of me. Thanks for you help again.

[Steph n' Ella]

Can you call her out of the circle? I sat with my IMS in her office and tried this with Ella. She circles A LOT. I was SO worried about her having something wrong neurologically! But if I call her name mid circle, she'll stop and look at me and maybe wag her tail at me. She might feel compelled to finish the circle before moving on to something else, but that's just her nerves. It is 100% behavioral for her. Good luck with Tipper! I hope it is just behavioral for her too!

[goldengirl88]

Steph N' Ella:
Has your dog done this prior to the Cushings? What type does she have? Does she start it with the tail wagging rapidly? I could probably try to call her out of it- it last only seconds- she only does it once not repeated circles- then bends her rear leg and sort of falls over. If I can call her out of it- would that necessarily mean it is not neurological? Have you talked to your vet about it? If so what did they say? I am so scared Tipper has a macro tumor that I can barely get thru the day, and I am up most of the night. I would appreciate you help and anbody else that can comment on this. Thank you and God Bless you and your baby.

[Steph n' Ella]

Ella doesn't have cushings...right now it is just hypothyroid and excessive thirst.

Exactly, if your can distract you dog and get them to stop or pause before they complete the circle, it is just behavioral, not neurological.

Ella does a bunch of repeated circles when she is excited. She also circles when she is in confined spaces. I talked to her breeder who owned her for her first 8 years of life and she said that she could never keep towels or blankets in Ella's kennel b/c she would be all tangled in the by the end of the day. So because she was kept in a kennel most of her life, circling is a nervous behavior.

I suggest that you get Tipper seen by a vet ASAP so that you can work on your worries together. I can hear your worry through your keybord...this is no way for you two to live!

[MBK]

Patti,

I know very little about Macros....but, I do know about JRTs! I do think there are other things that may be causing what you are seeing. First of all JRTs are quirky...if she did something she thought was fun, and especially if it got her mom's attention, she may continue it. In her mind she may have learned a new trick! A second possibility is as the cortisol lowers, she might be feeling an itchiness on her head or face from an allergy or something that the high cortisol had masked. Alivia does this.

I know you are terrified, but concentrate on what you KNOW. The money to see if that's what it is (or NOT) may be well worth it just to ease your mind. We can all drive ourselves crazy with the "what ifs"! It sounds like she is doing pretty well overall and that's a good thing!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Thanks for all the help again. I am a nervous Nelly!! I just wanted to tell everyone Tipper just came from her Ultra Sound. Her liver is not enlarged, and her adrenal glands are returning to a more normal shape. Not there all the way , but headed in the right direction. The Vet is going to talk to Dr. Peterson about the circling Tipper is exhibiting, and see what he says about it. My Vet called Dr. Todd Axlund in Akron- the one who does the surgery thru the neck to remove the tumor. Well I was quite shocked at the info. He said Dr. Axlund said you are only buying the dog another 6 months of life. I could never put Tipper thru such a serious/dangerous operation to extend her life 6 months. I am glad my Vet called. Axlund did not speak too highly of the radiation either. My Vet said if I can call Tipper out of the circle it is cognitive. If not, it could involve the brain stem- that controls breathing etc. He said she is the tuffest little Jack Russell he has ever taken care of, and the most well behaved. I am just going to go along with treatment, as we have been doing, and put the rest in God's hands, as I constantly pray for a miracle for her. I think since this is so expensive, and I am no longer working, I am going to use the money as wisely on her as I can. I think the money right now is better spent on the ACTH, and the meds. Do you agree?? Also, my greatest fear of having an emergency, and no animal hospital less than an hour away, has somewhat diminished. I had a heart to heart with my vet today and told him if he was going to treat Tipper thru all of this, that I would expect him to come to her aid in an emergency- even in the middle of the night. I can't help it I just put it out there, just how I feel. He said he would and I have his cell phone number which I would never abuse. I would only use it in a dire emergency. So I can get there in 10- 15 minutes. So that has taken some worry off of me. Tipper goes on the 10th of October for her next ACTH test. He is going to ask Dr. Petterson why she has done the circling after both tests. I am praying she does not do it this time and that all goes well. I pray for you all and your babies.

[Boriss McCall]

It sounds like you are beginning to find a little peace. ;) I know it took me a while to get there as well.
It makes things so much easier with a little less stress off the shoulders.

[MBK]

Patti,

That all sounds good so far! Let's hope it is not a macro and all your worrying about that has been for nothing. That is great that you have your vet's cell phone number in case of emergency! I am sure that is a huge relief for you. Tipper sounds so much like my Alivia! Her doctors always comment on how sweet and well behaved she is and say she is unlike most JRTs. Her IMS says she'd get a JRT if she could get one just like Ali. My Maxwell, on the other hand, is as sweet as can be at home, but can be a handful when I take him anywhere. Ali is always good. There is something about her soulful eyes and beautiful gentle spirit that makes her really special. I think you know exactly what I mean because it sounds as if Tipper is the same.

Anyway, so happy to see you had a good visit and some good news!

[goldengirl88]

MBK:
Thank you for the kindness you always show me. These JRT's are a special breed, and the bond I have with my Tipper is deep. This disease has taken part of my soul, but I will get up every day and fight the fight with my precious girl. I hope Alivia continues to due well, and that maybe she could become symptom free again. The people on this forum all deserve an award for the way they hang in there and battle this disease. God only knows it is not easy!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Hope you are all well, and that your babies continue to improve. It is getting cold here in the North East, and I am glad. Tipper was having a hard time at the end of the summer dealing with the heat. I did read this disease makes them heat sensitive. She had a wonderful walk yesterday, played with her toys, and had an over all good day. Tipper always slept in bed with me, right next to me with her head on the pillow like a person. When she first started with the symptoms, she would go and sleep in her crate. Maybe it was too hot in the bed. I am happy to announce she came to bed last night, and snuggled up right beside me like old times. I was so happy I cried. I never want the feeling of her warmth, and to go away. I continue to pray that she stays on the path she is on, and all goes well. Could anyone tell me the answer to this. Will she stay on the 10mg 2x a day forever- or does this turn into some kind of maintenance dose where it is not given as often- I have seen people talking about this, and don't understand it fully. Thank you all in advance for your help. I am enjoying every second I have with Tipper. It is a blessing that I found this forum, you have all been so helpful and uplifting.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

So glad to hear that Tipper is back in bed! :) I understand what that means to you because my Squirt did the same thing and it was sooo nice when she wanted back in the bed.

The two drugs used to treat Cushing's work differently and are used differently. The two drugs are Vetoryl (Trilostane) and Mitotane (Lysodren).

The drug Tipper is on, Vetoryl (Trilostane), will be given every day for the rest of her life. The dose will more than likely have to be changed as time passes - this seems to be inherent with this drug...the dose does not remain consistent over time and the pup will probably need a higher or lower dose. With each dose change, an ACTH has to be performed.

With Mitotane (Lysodren), the other choice, the pup goes through what is called a loading phase in which the drug is given twice a day for a short period of time, then there is a short waiting period, and then the pup goes on what is called a maintenance dose that is given 2-4 times a week, not daily. Lysodren seems to require less dose adjustment and therefore less testing.

So this is why you see folks talking about differing dosing schedules - they are using Lysodren, not Trilostane like Tipper.

Hope that helps you understand the difference but if not, keep hollering! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
Thank you so much now I understand the difference. There are just so many things that come up that I would be lost without this forum!

[goldengirl88]

Hello everyone:
It's about that time, that I ask another question!! Tipper takes a split dose of Vetoryl, 10mg morning, 10mg night. For about the last three weeks I noticed when she is sleeping, that she is twitching, her flesh is like rippling on her side, and her leg jerks. I called the 800 # and the rep. at Vetoryl said it is not the medication. Since my Vet is not real well versed on Cushings I am asking you guys what it could be. She does not do this during the day that I have seen. I think I read something about tremors somewhere??? I would appreciate your input on this. Thank you as always. Hope all the babies are having a good day.

[lulusmom]

I'm very surprised that the rep you spoke with at Dechra said it isn't the drug. Muscle tremors are absolutely a side effect of Vetoryl so the rep is either ignorant of the drug he's supposed know about or he is splitting hairs and defining muscle tics and tremors as two different involuntary muscle movement. We have had many members report that their dogs have muscle tremors/tics, primarily when they are at rest.

[Squirt's Mom]

HA! I did the same thing...I didn't envision twitches and rippling looking the same as tremors. Twitches and rippling looking like a horse with a fly; tremors looking like weak muscles. :o

[goldengirl88]

lulusmom:
Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I thought it was rather funny that the person I spoke to said Vetoryl does not cause this. Tipper never did this until she went on the Vetoryl. Is there any harm from these tics and tremors? Sometimes when she does it really bad I shake her and wake her up, as it scares me to death. I am wondering if inexperienced people are fielding these calls at Dechra? Otherwise why would someone (Theresa) tell me it was not from the drug? If others are experiencing this, I am surely not the only one who called it in to them!! I don't know what to make of this, as during the call I asked her if the cold weather would affect her circulation or anything else while on this drug, and she said no. Tipper is a walker and loves winter. I never leave her outdoors, but we can be out there in very cold weather for 30-40 minutes walking. To deprive her of this would kill her as when she sees snow, she wants out in it. Is anyone able to address this question? Now I am not trusting in what I am being told by Dechra, and that is not good.

[mypuppy]

Hi Tippers mom,

My girl is on a break from Vetoryl right now, but I too noticed the tremors and shaking while resting when she has been on Vetoryl. I learned here it was a possible side effect of vetoryl and I also called Dechra and they confirmed it also, so ugh, hate it when there are contradicting stories.

Hope this helps.

tight hugs to you and Tipper. xo Jeanette

[goldengirl88]

Jeanette:
When Tipper goes for her ACTH at 1:00 I am going to ask the vet to call Dechra and find out why they are giving out different answers on these tremors. I hate to take Tipper for this test as she has episodes of the circle behavior afterwards, and it scares me. I am hoping all goes well.

[Cocoa's Mom]

Hi, Tipper's Mom,

I just spent time reading through your whole thread, and hope you're doing okay. I can tell that this whole experience has really rattled you.

Our baby has been tested and examined and scanned backwards, forwards, up and down, with lots of conflicting information, and it's so frustrating. Hang in there. I'm sorry to hear about all that you're going through.

Donna

[goldengirl88]

Donna:
Thank you for your kindness. It truly touches me that everyone is so caring on here. I read your thread also, and you have really been through a lot too. I hope you soon get some definitive answers about Coco. This disease has aged Tipper, and me also. I see changes in her body that sadden me. She has a good quality of life for the time being, or I would not put her thru all this. I worry because I simply cannot do without her! She had another ACTH, bloodwork panel, and urine done today. I guess I will hear the results by Friday. I hope all is good for her sake, and for my sanity. I pray to God to take this horrible disease from her body and heal her. I pray for us all on this forum. Lets' hope you get some answers soon for your baby.

[molly muffin]

Hoping for all good results on this latest round of test. I know this is so hard on the entire family to go through this.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Thank you for thinking of my Tipper. I am awaiting the results probably today, at the latest Monday. I read something on hear that troubles me, and maybe you can tell me about this. Trilostane makes macrotumors grow faster?? I did not have an MRI on Tipper, but in my thread talk about my suspicions of this. I am worried now if she does have one that I shouldn't be using the Vetoryl?? There are so many variables with this disease, that it about makes you insane after you read all these things!! You are always second guessing if you are doing the right thing. If anyone can comment on this please do. Thank You all, I will let you know Tipper's results as soon as I get them.

[labblab]

Dear Tipper's Mom,

Here's a link to a reply in another member's thread that starts a conversation there about the risk of treatment causing a pituitary tumor to enlarge more rapidly.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?p=83374#post83374

If you scroll down through the replies there, you'll see that I worried about the same issue with my own Cushpup. Even though the risk may be real, I do believe that treatment decisions must be individualized for every dog, and quality of life factors must be weighed relative to symptoms. It is so hard when there don't seem to be easy answers, but we know that you are doing your best to make Tipper as comfortable as possible even in the midst of so many question marks.

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Thank you as always for the help. You never really know if you are doing right or wrong, and that is what is so unnerving to me. The vet told me if Tipper had any more circling episodes that she would need an MRI. If there is no cure for this I see no reason to put her through sedation etc. for an MRI. All you can do with the results is get a baseline of how large the tumor is. So what can you really do with that? Nothing, and my feeling is so why subject her to it. I am not so sure I would want to know how long my Tipper has left. It would just haunt me daily, and probably kill me to know. I am having a hard enough time dealing with this. I did however see a dog on YouTube that was doing a circling behavior exactly like what Tipper does and it was from Vestibular disease. I did read that these Cush dogs can get vestibular disease. I am praying it is that and not the macrotumor. I guess that is the only way for me to make it thru the day now is to hang onto the hope that is could be Vestibular Disease. Not that that is not bad in and of itself, but better than macro. It is a shame, but you have to hang onto what glimmer of hope you can, to get thru this. I had a bad episode with Tipper yesterday. Her allergies are acting up. The vet said the cortisol was masking it before. She gets them so bad, she will get raised welts all over, start a high temperature, and sometimes have anaphylaxis. She runs thru the house rubbing and hitting into the walls- it is extremely bad. Luckily I have dealt with this when she was a puppy and know the signs. She was on fire yesterday. I had to call the Vet and Dechra immediately and find out if she could have Benedryl with the Vetoryl. They both said yes. Dechra said only heart medications affect the Vetoryl. I put her in the tub in tepid water, then kept making it cooler. I finally got her under control. She is having a better day today, but still itchy. Does anyone know if these tremors she is doing at night will cause her any harm??? They do wake her up, but then she goes right back to sleep. Just wondering if I should be concerned about them. I try to be proactive and get a jump on things before new problems crop up.

[labblab]

My Cushpup suffered from some unexplained tremors, too, and this is a related reply that I just posted on another thread. Of course, I don't know whether Tipper's tremors are the same as my dog's. But for what it's worth, my dog's episodes seemed to bother me a lot more than they did him. Just as you say, sometimes they would actually jerk him awake when he was sleeping. But he would just ignore them and go right back to sleep. I could never see that they harmed him, but they definitely freaked me out!


I just wanted to stop by to add a couple of thoughts since my own Cushpup was one who also suffered from weird tremoring episodes. Although I do not believe he was cold or in pain, it looked as though he was shivering across his shoulders. It happened most often when he was resting or even asleep.

In our case, I first noticed the tremors a couple of weeks prior to his Cushing's diagnosis. He was treated several years ago when the protocol called for higher doses of trilostane, and he was indeed started off on a very hefty dose. The tremoring became much more frequent and obvious shortly after starting on the trilo. It remained for a couple of months, but then stopped altogether.

We were never sure as to the cause. As the Dechra rep stated [to you], tremoring is now listed as a possible side effect to treatment. However, I think her answer is correct in that nobody knows whether it is actually caused by the drug itself or whether it is related to some as-yet-unknown mechanism associated with the Cushing's syndrome.

Since my own dog started the tremoring prior to the trilo, I can't solely blame the drug. However, the tremors did worsen right after he started on it. FWIW, his cortisol level was sky-high per his diagnostic ACTH test, and I have always speculated that the tremoring was related to the cortisol level itself -- maybe rapid changes in either direction. I've especially thought this might be true because we have had Lysodren parents report the same thing.

Anyway, I don't think the mechanism is yet understood either by Dechra or anybody else. But I just wanted you to know that other members have reported the same types of experiences.

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
Tipper got her 4th ACTH results and they are as follows:
Pre- 4.6
Post 11.0
She was supposed to have a complete blood panel done- as she does every time she has an ACTH, but the Tech. messed up and forgot to send it. Bummer huh? Had to take Tipper back this morning for a blood pressure check- she gets one every Wed. so they drew blood again. Poor Tipper she has had it for this week. I hope all of you get your babies blood pressure checked weekly- it is extremely important, and I have been told this by 3 different specialists. I have to run in, and hand Tipper immediately to them and they hurry and take her pressure, before she has a chance to start getting anxious. Then I always weigh her. She has lost about 10 ounces in the last 3 weeks. I don't know if that is due to the low fat dog food or the disease. When should I be alarmed about it? She was 17 lbs now 16.6. I will have her blood results probably Friday, and will post them. Other than that she has been eating well, no pilling problems, no bathroom problems, no excessive drinking, or panting. I do notice changes in her body make-up however. She is still walking about a mile every day, and eagerly wants to go. Seems to be sleeping better, except for the tremors. As I said in a previous post my Vet did call the Vet at Dechra about the tremors. The Dechra Vet said that tremors are listed as a side effect, but they are not sure if it is actually the Vetoryl, or possibly joint pain. The cortisol had previously masked any joint pain the dog would have, so in a relaxed state, they could have a twinge of pain, and that could make the tremor or leg jumping. I hope all of your babies are having a better week than the last. It is about 70 today here in the North East and Tipper and I are going to take full advantage of it. God Bless you all and all your babies.

[lulusmom]

Hi and thanks for posting the stim test results. Are you sure the extra blood draw was done for a full blood chemistry or was it to check the electrolytes, which should be done with every acth stim test? If it was done for a full blood chemistry, in my opinion, it's premature and a waste of money. It makes more sense to get Tipper's cortisol within the therapeutic range of 1.4 to 5.5, or as high 9.1 if all symptoms have resolved, before doing another full blood pane. Since Tipper's post stimulated cortisol is too high, you would have to expect that some, if not all, blood abnormalities are still abnormal. Did your vet mention what the next step is to get Tipper's cortisol to an acceptable level?

With reference to the tremoring, I think I mentioned previously that we've had a lot of members who report that their dogs developed tremors after starting Vetoryl treatment. The majority reported that tremors were noticed at rest or during sleep. I don't recall that any of these dogs were experiencing joint pain during sleep and not during waking moments. Does Tipper act arthritic during the day? i.e. any struggling or apparent pain in trying to stand from laying or sitting position? Any noticable stiffness while walking? If no to these questions, I believe that it is highly unlikely that the tremors you are seeing being caused by joint pain. Has your vet done xrays and/or manipulated Tipper to confirm or rule out arthritis?

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
I am confused- the Vet told me her cortisol is at a good level now. The test says anywhere between 6-18 is normal. What am I goofing up here on? Tipper does have some slight displaysia in her hips as of years ago. Since she is 11 she could have arthritis. I don't think they really know what causes these tremors, and they are guessing at best. Thanks for your help in advance, as you really have me going about this cortisol now. The reason he does the Early Detection Profile is to see if there are any problems with her liver, kidneys etc. so it would be caught early. He also does urine testing at the same time.

[Squirt's Mom]

...the Vet told me her cortisol is at a good level now. The test says anywhere between 6-18 is normal.

This is something we see often, unfortunately - vets who don't learn how to read these tests and therefore base doses on incorrect info. That range, 6-18, is normal for an UNTREATED dog - a dog that does not have Cushing's and/or is not on treatment. Once diagnosed and treatment is started, that range changes depending on which drug is being used.

The post range for a Trilo pup has to be between those values Glynda gave. If the post is higher than 5.5, the dose is probably not right. IF all signs are controlled, the post can go up to 9.1 - but no higher.

Hope that helps you understand a bit better.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
Not knowing what to do, I called Dechra, and they said that Tipper is where she should be for now. They said she has steadily been coming down, and they don't want to rush it. They told me since her clinical symptoms have mostly disappeared that is what we need to pay attention to now. They told me they do not want her to get to the lower end of those numbers, as then she can have problems going too low. They said just hang in there and see if her number continues to drop on it's own. If she has no more symptoms, and she is at 11 and Glynda says 9 is ok she is not too far away. Does everyone agree with this or not?? I would appreciate everyones input, and Glynda especially what do you think? I don't want to rock the boat and make her worse off than she is. She has been doing well like this. Please tell me what you think as this makes me nervous. Thank you Leslie for explaining this to me I did not know all this and I appreciate it. I hope to God I am doing the right thing here. Thank you all for you help.

[lulusmom]

Hi Patti,

I was unable to find any prior acth stim tests so I had nothing to compare this latest stim to. Tipper has been on 10mg am and pm since August 25 so it is possible that her cortisol could continue to drop. We've seen some dogs whose cortisol continued to drop well into the 60 day mark and a few into the first 90 days of treatment. If Tipper is doing well and all of her symptoms have resolved, then I would agree to leave her where she is and see where cortisol levels are in 30 days. You'll find that a lot of members believe that treating the symptoms are preferrable to treating the numbers; however, I'm not one of them. I believe therepeutic ranges are established for a reason. It is when pre and post stimulated cortisol levels are within this range that one can expect full resolution of symptoms as well as continued normalization of blood and urine abnormalities.

Tipper is early on in treatment so if she were mine, I'd do exactly as Dechra has recommended. FYI, their recommendation is contrary to their published monitoring protocol which reflects that a dosing increase is recommended if any post stimulated cortisol in excess of 9.1 ug/dl, regardless of symptoms. If you are confused, you're a perfectly normal cushdog parent. It's all overwhelming at times and not everything makes sense until you have all the pieces of the puzzle. Trust me when I tell you that if you make a concerted effort to educate yourself, you'll wake up one day and realize you have all the pieces to the puzzle and that somewhere along the way, you became an excellent advocate for Tipper. You are well on your way, Patti.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Thank you so much for you help. I wanted to give you Tipper's other results :
8-1 Pre-6.4 Post- 27.9
8-24 Pre- 7.6 Post- 4 hr1.3 Post 8 hr 1.0
9-12 Pre- 9.6 Post- 15.2
10-10 Pre 4.6 Post 11.0
Do you still think she is on the right track?? I sure hope so. It seems Dechra does give conflicting information at times- look at the different things they told me about the tremors! In her blood panel she also has her electrolytes checked- I forgot that on the last post. You guys are all sure amazing, as my head feels like it will burst from all the Cushings information. I am so glad for you all this again, is a blessing to be able to get your help. Hope all the babies have a good day.

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Please look at my thread I posted Tipper's stim results and want your opinion if I am still doing the right thing with her.
Thanks in advance, you are a life saver.

[molly muffin]

Hi. I'm looking at the results and they did come down from Sept to October and I can see why they might think that staying the course is the thing to do for now if the numbers continue to come down.
I'd go with symptoms and how they are doing and then retest in November, staying at this dosage unless any symptoms get worse.
If I understand correctly, while on treatment you are looking for the second number (the post) to come down to below 9.0. It's moved from 15.2 to 11. in a month. You don't want a fast downward spiral as often cortisol levels continue to drop (but because they can always start heading north, we do the testing). We aren't seeing that here though. So, I think you are fine for now.
Lets see what November looks like and how Tipper's symptoms are.

hugs,
Sharlene

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Thank you so much for looking at Tipper's numbers. I second guess, third guess, and fourth guess everyhting I do!! I am a novice at this and really appreciate the help. I hope she keeps going well, and staying on course. God Bless you and all the babies on here. Hope all the babies have a good day>

[lulusmom]

Hi Patti.

Sorry for missing your post yesterday but see Sharlene had the bases covered. The opinion I expressed in my prior post included consideration for Tipper's last post stim of 11 ug/dl. As long as Tipper's symptoms have resolved completely, then I'd stay the course for another 30 days.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Thank you for your help I really appreciate it since I am in the dark on many of these issues.

[Lady's mom]

Has anybody heard from her lately? I hope everything is ok.

[molly muffin]

Hi Patti,

How is Tipper doing? and you? We haven't heard from you in awhile. You know we are worry warts. :)

Hope you are both doing okay.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Hi,
Just checking in to see how things are going for your baby?

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
Thank you all for inquiring about Tipper. We have been spending some intense time together. I cherish every second of it. Tipper has been doing very well. So well in fact that it is scaring me. I am so afraid that this " grace period" will come crashing to an end. Tipper has been pretty much symptom free for the most part. She does however still have a ravenous appetite. I called Dechra as her last stim test was an 11, and I was concerned. They had the Vet there call me. He explained many things to me that I did not know. He told me to give her another month and the hunger should subside. He said he was not in favor of upping her meds right now. I hope I am doing the right thing listening to him. What do you all think? What would you do??? I am worried if her number is not low enough, that this could be doing more damage inside of her??? I have just been living every day scared to death that this good period will end. I do read the entries on the forum, but get depressed when I hear of others having so many problems, and of their dogs passing. I am scared to death that this will be my Tipper's fate. I think I am actually borderline paranoid from watching every little thing she does, in an effort to catch anything that is going wrong. Nobody said this was easy, but it can and does give me a lot of anxiety. Of all the dogs I have shared my lifetime with, she is the most precious and special to me. I pray to God to keep this miracle going for her, and that she remains symptom free. This disease is so scarey that even though she doesn't exhibit symptoms, I am still petrified of what is going on inside her. I am naturally a worry wort, so this has kicked into high gear with me. I am trying to manage it day to day, as it effects my Lupus badly. Tipper is very energetic, walking sometimes 5-6 times a day, plays ball, jumps up on her hind legs like a spring, and has a good quality of life. She has no skin issues, just her allergies, eats well, and is resting better, but still snoring loudly, and having the muscle contractions. She has become very frightened of noises, anyone having this problem?? If so what is causing this? It is hard for me to reconcile that all this can be snuffed out in a heart beat. I pray for you all, and all your babies as this is definitely a life changing experience for us all. Sorry to ramble on, but some of these things are hard to hold inside, and better let out with understanding friends. For better or worse we have all been brought together for the same reason, the love of our companion animal. I still wish we could all get together, and become a positive force in finding a cure for this disease. I want to get some entity interested in studying this disease, and stopping it ,so others do not have to go thru this. There are many funds for researching other diseases, but I have not seen any for this. I think this is the best way to honor our babies, think about it, maybe we could initiate something and get the ball rolling. God Bless Us All

[molly muffin]

So glad to hear from you! Even better is know that Tipper is doing A-Okay. I'd keep Tipper just where she is as that was the recommendation from Dechra and she appears to be doing very well on it.

Now don't go borrowing trouble that you don't have by worrying so much. I know we all tend to do that, but you need to think about how it is not good for your health to do that either. Enjoy the now, as you are doing, while Tipper is feeling good. That is what is important. Hugs!

We know how hard it is sometimes to read of peoples problems and the furbabies and understand that. Comment when you want to or ask any questions. Just know that we tend to be worry warts, so don't be surprised if we start looking for you. :)

Not sure what would cause the noise fright. I just have the thunder/lightening fear to deal with.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

I know so well how you are feeling. Squirt is my heart-n-soul dog, she literally saved my life, giving it purpose when I had no hope left. She is the light of my world and I cannot fathom one single day without her. We have been together since she was 5 weeks old and she will be 15 in Feb. She was 10 when we started this Cushing's journey and I prayed for 6 more years, just 6 more.

There are times when anticipatory grief takes over and I can barely function. I look at her, knowing she is getting old, knowing our days here are numbered, and the air doesn't want to come into my lungs, my chest constricts, my throat tightens and burns. Tears will start flowing unchecked then she will roll over and look at me with such love and joy in her eyes along with the promise that she will never really leave me, that she will always be with me no matter what, that we will never be truly apart. Her eyes remind me of my faith, my belief that all life is a circle, that there is no ending without a beginning, that the physical will change but the Spirit remains constant, that our Souls are bound together for eternity. And I can breath again.

I have to remind myself constantly to take every minute as it comes, to find the beauty and joy each offers, and to hold on to that with all my might. Everything is more precious, even the things neither of us enjoy, like trimming nails and washing the face. Everything makes another memory to store and cherish against "that day". I remind myself that her Light will always shine, she will always "be" in one form or the other, that we will always be together. A friend once told me we are all made a promise - a promise that even though things may change those we love never really leave us; a promise that we will be reunited with them one day; a promise that separation is only temporary. I cling to that promise and find a great deal of comfort.

Keep your chin up, honey, keep the faith, remember that promise. Our babies know they are loved more than words can express and that is all that really matters.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
Thank you so much for all the kind words, and encouragement, I needed them badly. Tipper has been acting strange the last few days. Very paranoid behavior, pacing and listening for whatever, with a distant look about her. Yesterday when we went for her blood pressure check it was up at 170. She had constantly been 160 then 2 weeks ago went down to 125 in a matter of 8 days. She stayed at 125 for 2 weeks. I was told the 125 is a good number?? Now we are at the 170 which is scaring me since her behavior has been so odd.The Vet said she was really anxious and that could account for it- but rising 45 points??? She is still contantly starving, and cries when I get her food ready. Last night she was very restless. Her last stim was in October. She is not supposed to get another one until January. Do you think I should get another one done to see what is going on or wait? She gets her blood pressure checked every week on Wednesday. Should I wait till the next BP check? When she got up this morning she had lots of white mucus in her eyes- both of them. Not sure what this has to do with anything. She has never had this before. This is so scarey not knowing what to do. I appreciate the time you took, and the beautiful things you wrote. They all sum up my feelings for Tipper too. Living every day being scared is not easy to do. I am trying to keep my anxiety down, but it is not easy. Anyone have any suggestions I would greatly appreciate them. Thank You again, and God Bless Us, and all of our babies.

[lulusmom]

Hi Patti,

At the time of Tipper's last stim test, you mentioned that all of her symptoms had resolved. You now mention that she is starving all of the time now. Has that symptoms recently returned? Since the post stimulated cortisol was high (11 ug/dl) on the last stim test done over a month ago on 10/10, I would definitely want another stim test done to see where Tipper's cortisol levels are now. It's possible her cortisol is higher now or it may still be hovering around the 10/10 levels, but in either case, an increase in dose may be necessary.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Thank you Glynda- Tipper never really had the ravenous appetite. All Jack Russells love food, so she always did want food. It has become very pronounced now, and she can't wait to eat and cries when we eat anything. This is the only symptom that has cropped up. The rep at Dechra told me to wait another month and see if it subsides, but it is becoming a problem as she will jump all over you and beg an hour before it is time for her to eat. It does seem to be getting unmanageable, as she cannot eat all day long or we will have weight issues. I hate to put her thru another test, but I am torn at what to do. Is the hunger issue controlled if the cortisol is where it should be? She is getting super upset going to the Vet's all the time, and that is a bad thing also. What would you do? Thank you for your help.

[Squirt's Mom]

An insatiable appetite is a hallmark of Cushing's, so I would have another ACTH done asap to see where the cortisol is now. It may well have continued to rise causing the hunger to grow.

[molly muffin]

I wonder if the cortisol is rising if that could have anything to do with the behavior change of acute paranoia and fear. I've never heard of it before, but you never seem to know with this disease. :(

Maybe you can make going to the vet a good thing. Treats when you get there, some play time with a toy in the car before you get out, something like that?

Keeping you in our thoughts and hearts.
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Thank you both for the help. My Vet is out of town, so I will call and schedule her test for Wednesday when he is back. I am scared to put her on more Vetoryl and crash her. Since she is at 11 do you think that is a possibility? I will do whatever I have to to get this in check, but I am petrified of this drug. I know it can escalate macro tumors, and I have been suspicious of Tipper having one, with all the paranoia etc. God help us both, as this is starting to overwhenlm me again. Thank you.

[Squirt's Mom]

Cortisol is a sort of stimulant and can make them feel restless for sure so I don't know why anxiety and paranoia couldn't be seen with elevated cortisol as well. I know the times I have to take a round of pred it makes me very hyper in most areas and from the outside I could be pegged as nuts, paranoid, hyperactive, over-reactive, easily spooked, etc. From the inside, it feels like ants are crawling, like I have to keep moving even when I have no idea what I am doing, hyper-alert to every little thing, difficult to concentrate for long...but it makes my body feel really good otherwise - no pain, no constrictions. So I would think Tipper's behaviors could easily be contributed to rising cortisol in my feeble mind. :o

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Thank all of you for the input. I made her an appointment for Wednesday for another ACTH. I hope God is looking out for her, I am scared to death to up her meds and have her crash. This dog means the world to me, and I am trying to manage all this without upsetting her. Please all of you pray for her that she gets past this.

[addy]

Since she still was restless at night, you may want to think about twice day dosing so her cortisol is more evenly controlled throughout the day. Every dog is different but when I left Zoe at 11 ug/dl last year, she drifted down to 9 but then went back up to over 12ug/dl. I never changed her dose during that time. It could be her cortsiol is drifting higher and it is causing a problem for her in the way of hunger and restlessness.

It is so hard for us to know what is going on with them.

Ususally, they up the dose maybe 25% then divide in two for twice day dosing. Maybe discuss with your vet.

Hang in there.

[lulusmom]

Tipper started on 10mg once daily but after Patti's vet consulted with Dr. Peterson, they put Tipper on 10mg twice daily. Her last post stim was 11 ug/dl and Dechra's response was because she is early in treatment and symptoms were improving, they didn't feel any adjustment to dose was approriate at that time. That was more than 30 days ago.

Patti, just a reminder to get Tipper to the vet within three to four hours of dosing and make sure she gets a small meal with her dose.

Glynda

[addy]

Thank you for reminding me, Glynda. My adled brain got Tipper confused with our insomnia pup:o:o:o:o

Never mind:D:D:D:rolleyes::o

[goldengirl88]

Thank you girls!!! I will get her to the Vets within 4 hours and make sure she eats a small meal. If she has to go on 30 I called Dechra today, and Dosha told me if she is post 11 or higher we would go to 30mg. She would get 20 in the morning and 10 at night. It makes it really more expensive because I have to buy the 10 mg boxes. That will make it 150.00 a month! Well I have learned to cut out a lot of things, and not buy things that aren't absolutely necessary, in order to afford to do everything Tipper needs. I don't care what I do without as long as she gets what she needs. It is surprising the money you learn you were wasting on things that did not need to be purchased. This has taught me many lessons. The most important of them, is that my love for this dog is greater than anything else in this world. I will do anything to save her life. Thank you all for the help and support, as every baby step with this is scarey. I am so glad to have you and all your expertise to guide me. My Tipper is still going today because of the wonderful kindness of the people on here. God Bless Us All and out Furbabies.

[goldengirl88]

Ladies: I forgot something- my Vet had been doing Tipper's test at 6 hours- he said from 4 to 6 hours after her pill and food. Was that ok?? If not I am going to make him do it at 4 hours from now on!!! Thank You.

[lulusmom]

As long as the test is completed within six hours, you're good.

[molly muffin]

Happy Thanksgiving to you and Tipper

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
Just got the results of Tipper's ACTH and wanted to post them , and of course have questions for everyone.
The numbers are:
Pre: 1.4
Post: 8.7
The Vet said due to these numbers her medication will stay the same 10 mg in the morning and 10mg at night.
Now here is my dilemma. I told you about her being hungry all the time, she cries for food, and practically knocked me over one day to get at it. She was eating slightly more during her higher cortisol numbers, as I could not listen to her cry anymore. I gave her veggies, and low calorie things to help her thru the hunger. She still gained almost a pound from it which has to come off. If her number is good, why is she still starving? Do you think the extra food stretched her stomach a bit, and now is still truly hungry? It seems genuine and I don't know what to do. As hard as it is I already started cutting her back. Jack Russells can be a real handful, and when they want something they fully intend on getting it. My Vet is calling the Vet at Dechra about it, but we probably won't hear anything until Monday or so. The extra water consumption may be because she had a bladder infection, or so says the Vet. Not that she is drinking loads of water, but more than her "new normal." So I ran her back to the Vet today and they gave her a 2 week antibiotic injection. Her stomach doesn't tolerate antibiotics well. The Vet said the report said there were some crystals in her urine, but that it could be from sitting in the refrigerator in that morning which can also cause crystals, so next Wednesday he will run a test in his office to see if his also has crystals. I will get the urine first thing in the morning and not refrigerate it, and go straight to his office. Well I know I am rambling on here so I will stop. Please everyone tell me what you think about this situation, I am most appreciative for the time you have all spent helping Tipper and I get thru all this stuff. Hope all your babies are doing well. Tipper and I say prayers for all of you. We are getting ready for our first snowstorm of the year, so Tipper will be delighted if we wake up to the white stuff. She has always loved the snow. It would be nice to see her happy!!

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
I know it is the start of the holiday season and you are probably busy. If you have a few extra minutes to read my last post I would appreciate it, I need your opinion.
Thank you and God Bless all of us and our babies.

[molly muffin]

Hi, jut a couple quick questions. Did you hear back from the Dechra vet? You said your vet was going to call them and ask about the hunger and the numbers? Did they do another urinalysis and did it show crystals? Did taking the anitibiotic shot help with anything? Did they confirm a urinary infection?
Sure optimally we'd like to see the post number down under 5 for control, but that doesn't always happen. For instance Zoe, Addy's baby, goes up and down. Based upon what Dechra ends up saying, perhaps talk to vet about doing a 5 mg in evening, 10 in morning dosage, or 5/5 even to see if that helps. You would need to get that from a compounded pharmacy, but it is certainly an option to talk to them about if you feel like the hunger is out of control, that Tipper is truly miserable, etc. How has the peeing been? Is that under control at all, or is Tipper having accidents with the increased water consumption?

Some of the questions I am sure that Glynda would want to know too, based upon your last update.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Hi again from me! Like Sharlene, I am wondering whether you've heard back yet from Dechra. I would think that a dosage increase would be in order, so I'm curious as to their recommendation. Tipper has now been on her current dosing regimen for close to two months now, right? So if she is exhibiting symptoms and her cortisol is still hanging up there around 9 ug/dl, I would think it would be time to up the trilostane a bit. If you stick with Vetoryl, the logical increase is from 20 mg. to 30 mg. in terms of a daily total, but I know you're currently giving a split dose of 10 mg. twice a day. So adding another 10 mg. to either the morning or evening dose will make things really expensive for you unless you switch to a compounded product. I don't know whether Dechra might consider going back to once daily dosing, and giving Tipper a single 30 mg. Vetoryl capsule in the morning. I'll be interested to hear what they recommend.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Oops, sorry about that, I don't know why I thought Tipper was on 10mg, once a day. (Whew Glad Marianne knew the real dosage!) All my questions still stand though! Inquiring minds want to know!

Sharlene

[goldengirl88]

Thanks everyone for the help. Tipper is going to the Vet's tomorrow to have an in house urine test- to make sure there are no crystals. She has never peed in my house. Even when she was drinking "gallons." Before Tipper got sick if I had to go somewhere for a long period of time I would put a pad on the floor. Never once did she use it, she has always been like that. She is drinking more water than usual, but not nearly the amount as when this first started. It could be too, that I am not used to seeing her go to the water bowl so often, as when she did not have cushings, and it seems like a lot to me. It is too hard for me to measure because I have 2 cats and 2 dogs. They all go to various bowls. The antibiotic shot is probably helping her- she showed no symptoms of an infection, it just showed in the urinalysis. I don't know exactly what the report says as I will get my copy tomorrow and let you know. The Vet said he was calling Dechra about this hunger- but, he unfortunately has to be prodded all the time to do what he is supposed to. I will get on him tomorrow. I do not want to go to 30 mg 1 time a day- the Vet at Dechra said not to go up anymore the last time I talked to him. I do not want to use a compounding pharmacy, as I do not believe the dosage is reliable. I will see what they say tomorrow. Even though the split dose is more expensive I prefer it, as it is better for her. If need be I will use 2 -10 mg in the morning and one at night if that is what they suggest. It will be very expensive, but Tipper is very sensitive to things and my Vet and I are worried to give her a 30 mg capsule may cause a reaction in her. I am wondering if the hunger is just Tipper's Jack Russell behavior. It is hard to determine. They want food all the time even when she didn't have Cushings. Could this be a habit from me giving her extra things to get her thru to the next meal when she had severe symptoms?? I am scared 10 more mgs may crash her. I will let everyone know when I get back tomorrow. Thank you all for your help.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
Again thank you for the help. Just got back from the Vets and had to get on his case about talking to the Vet at Dechra today ,and finding a solution to the hunger issue. Tipper is on Vetoryl and she previously started out at 27 Post on 10mg.then down to 11 Post on 10 mg in the morning and 10mg at night, and is now 8.7 Post on the 10 mg one in the morning and one at night so I assume it is still too high. At 8.7 if she is given 10 more mg in the morning what do you think the chances are of her crashing??? This scares the hell out of me. I will let you know when the Vet calls me today what Dechra says.
The urine test results were:
Bilirubin- 1+ this is high but barely- and I read it can be because of the infection. Reference range- negative
WBC- 6-10 reference range 0-5HPF
Crystals 4+ CA Oxalate (>10) The Vet gave her another test today as he said when you send it out and it sits in the refirgetator in can form crystals from that. He is doing one in house that I took with me and had not been refrigerated. I will post the results when he calls today.
Pleas let me know what you think of all this, I am lost and need some help figuring this out. Thank You all in advance.
She still seems genuinely hungry to me and cries while I get her food ready.

[labblab]

Of course I would defer to Dechra's recommendation, but if they do suggest a dosing increase, I would not be too worried about Tipper crashing. Of course, that is easy for me to say since she is not my dog :o. But if she WERE my dog, I'd want to get the optimal benefit from the Vetoryl treatment, and it doesn't sound as though you guys are there yet.

When you added the extra 10 mg. last time, it only dropped her cortisol level from 11 to 8.7. Since the lower level of Dechra's desired therapeutic range is 1.45, you still have quite a ways to go before Tipper's cortisol falls too low according to their protocol. So if they suggest a dosing increase, I'd give it a try if it were me. ;)

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Thank you for the help. I needed to hear it from one of you, what you would do, to give me the courage to do this. My Vet called and said he agrees the dose must be increased to 30mg. He said he talked to the Vet at Dechra on Friday and the Vet told him not to increase anything until the urinalysis was done today. Dr. Fox at Dechra said no increase if she has any infection, or crystals. Well no crystals on the test today, and the infection is gone. So I guess the crystals were from sitting in the refrigerator and then being sent out, as my Vet had told me. Well he was right about one thing at least!!!.My Vet said he will re contact Dr. Fox, and see how we should dose this -20mg in the morning and 10 at night, or 10, 10 and 10. Anyone have any experience with, or can shed some light on the dosing I appreciate the help in this decision. I kinda think the 20 10 is the best way to go if she can tolerate 20 at one time. Let me know what you all think, as I am taking baby steps here trying to be cautious. I am the nervous Nelly, I swear this has aged me 10 years. I never had bags under my eyes before this from not sleeping. Oh well, I have no right to complain, as my beautiful girl has suffered tremendously with this, and keeps on going like a trooper. I just need to put an end to this starving all the time as she has to be miserable from it, and it is about to drive me insane as well.

[lulusmom]

If it were me, I'd go with 20mg in the am and 10mg in the PM. That way, if the next acth stimulation test looks great but symptoms have still not resolved, you can add another 10mg to the evening dose. IMO, baby steps are always much safer for our dogs.

[addy]

I totally agree with Glynda, do 20 mgs am and 10 mgs pm if you dont want to do 30mgs all at once.

It will be okay, we are all nervous nellies and will hold your hand.:)

[molly muffin]

See there you go. Some good advice and those who have been through this same thing. :) You aren't alone in the journey.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone: I just got off the phone with Dechra. I talked to Theresa and relayed what is going on with Tipper since I haven't heard from my Vet. She is going to ask Dr. Fox's advice as to raising the dosage. She said since Tipper was a 1.4 pre and 8.7 post she would be afraid of her going too much in the wrong direction. I don't understand this stuff and need help. I thought the only number to worry about was the post. Now I find out thru her that the pre is also important. I do not know what in the heck to do now. Also I called a local Medicine Shoppe, the pharmacist told me she can take a 10 mg capsule of my Vetoryl and make it into 2 -5mgs. That way Tipper would get 25 mg a day instead of 30. I would have to give her 15 in the day and 10 at night. I know this is a baby step and very, very expensive to have the pharmacist do this, but I am now scared after talking to Dechra to give her another 10mg. I am just about ready to melt down. Please advise me if you can I surely need the help and support. Theresa asked if there could be some other underlying issue explaining the hunger, as her numbers are in a good range, and she should not be hungry. I know of none, and the only logical answer is the drug needs tweaked, as this has never been an issue before cushings. Please help, I am so disgusted with all of this and don't know where else to turn, but here.

[labblab]

I totally understand why you are frustrated and upset -- let's wait and see what Dr. Fox has to say. In honesty, what Theresa has told you makes no sense to me and is contrary to Dechra's own published information and guidelines. I wonder who Theresa is, anyway :confused:. Yes, the "pre" can warrant scrutiny if the "post" is also too low. But with Tipper's "post" of 8.7, I don't see how anybody would worry about imminent oversuppression. And Dechra's dosing protocol clearly advises increasing the dosage if the "post" is over 5.4 and symptoms are unresolved.

I am disturbed with Dechra if they are allowing underqualified personnel to answer these types of questions. If "Theresa" needs to confer with Dr. Fox, probably she shouldn't have been fielding the call and giving her own feedback in the first place!

Now, if he tells you the same thing as Theresa, I will need some help with picking my jaw up off the floor! :rolleyes:

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Thank you for feeling the frustration with me. I am about to go looney tunes. I assume Theresa is a Vet tech., as I think my Vet told me before they field the calls. I am waiting on my Vet to take his good old time to help me get this resolved. Tipper has been very restless, starving and more water than usual. Both of us hardly get any sleep since she sleeps next to me we are up all night. The Vet just doesn't get it. No sense of urgency ,because he is not the one having to deal with all this. Last night I had to leave her in my room and go in my office to make her stop crying for food. It is really wearing both of us down at this point. I am about ready to have one of my sessions with the Vet again about the importance of getting on these matters before they escalate into other things. He and I have had it out several times when I feel he is not doing his job, and not doing right by Tipper. He is one of few Vets around so I can only hold his feet to the fire every so often, or I will have no Vet. It is terrible to have to settle for a Vet like this though. He has a gigantic ego, and thinks because I am so involved in Tipper's care that I step on his toes. Oh well too bad as this is my dog and I will fight to the finish for her care.I am paying him enough too, he is quite expensive, especially if he knows you love your dog -if you know what I mean? As if it is not enough dealing with this disease he has to make it more stressful for me. Since today is Friday he probably will not call back until Monday. Sorry to go on a tirade, but I have had it with the lack of understanding on his part, and he will just act like nothing is wrong when I get upset.

[labblab]

I hate it that you are having to go through all these hassles in order to get informed advice! How were things left with Dechra? Is Theresa going to call you back or will Dr. Fox contact you directly?

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Theresa said she would grab Dr. Fox as he came out of a meeting, that was several hours ago, She said she would call me back. I am wondering if they are waiting to see if my "take your good old time" Vet is going to call them?? If not I am not too proud to call her again, if I don't hear anything by 4pm ET. I am so sick of struggling with all these people not wanting to do their jobs, I am worn out mentally.As soon as they call or I call them I will post for you to see. Thank you for your help and support, it is well needed.

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
Dechra's Theresa just called and said my Vet finally called Dr. Fox. She said because Tipper's UTI is gone and she concentrates her urine well, that she can have the dosage raised. I was going to go to 25mg and have the Med Shoppe make the 5mg out of my 10mg- but when I talked to the person who would be doing it they said it would cost like 60.00 a box to do. I told them that is outrageous, and more than the drug itself costs. So that would add like 240.00 more a month. I do not have a money tree in the back yard. Theresa said they were discussing a dose of 30mg split 20/10. She said the final decision in my Vet's, and he has not called yet. So I guess it will have to be 20 in the morning and 10 at night. I pray to God that this is not too much for her since she is so sensitive to drugs. I will just have to suck it up and buy 3 boxes of 10 mgs a month. I will not give her 1 30mg dose that is not even a consideration. I don't want her to be a zombie, or crash so I have decided to do it this way. Although it is way more expensive, it is just safer for her, and that is what matters the most to me. I have already cut back on things so a little more belt tightening will work. Please pray for my Tipper as when the Vet calls and gives me the ok, she will get the 20 in the morning. I am scared to death to do this, but I must help her out of this misery. Please pray for us to get thru this. Thank you all for all the help and encouragement it means so much to me.

[labblab]

I'll bet Tipper will do just fine tomorrow. I know it's impossible for you not to worry, but in most cases, oversuppression from trilostane can be reversed simply by discontinuing the drug for a while and lowering the dosage. There are always exceptions, and we have some here among our membership. But I know you'll be watching her like a hawk, so if you notice something that seems "off," you can always hold the medication that day if you are in doubt. The odds are in your favor that any problems that arise can be remedied.

GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Marianne

[addy]

I totally understand how you feel. Every time I had to do a 10 mg increase I worried about flaring my Zoe's colitis. She has handled the last 3 increases just fine and I think Tipper will do just fine tomorrow as well. After all, she has you in her corner:D:);)

((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))

It will be fine.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
I was awake all night knowing that I had to give Tipper the 20mg capsule of Vetoryl this morning. I have to do it in icriments of 10mg at a time so it was difficult tricking her with the food twice. I gave it to her at 7:15 am this morning. It is now 8:30 and I am still a nervous wreck. She goes for a walk every morning after she eats and I was scared something would happen on the walk. We are ok so far. I made sure the Vet was going to be in this morning or I would not have given it to her. In case of any complications, because she is so sensitive to drugs I need to have a Vet to take her to in an emergency. God Bless you all for caring about her and helping us so much. I will keep you posted during the day.

[Boriss McCall]

Good luck! I just know you will have a good day. Every time we have increased Boriss he has done just fine. ;)
I buy those pill pockets & sneak both pills in his mouth at the same time. He gobbles it down without blinking an eye. It makes it much easier. He takes a 30mg & a 10mg pill every morning at the same time.

Hang it there!

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
Thank you for the encouragement. It would seem there is not too much I cannot do when I have to in my lifetime, but when it involves Tipper I am scared to death. Her system has always been real sensitive to drugs of any kind. She had amoxicillin a few years back for something, and a few months after that ,was given it again, and had such a bad reaction, and went into anaphylaxis. She can be on something ,and the next time react to it. So it is quite scary to give her anything. I am sitting here and keeping her at my side all day. How much does Boris weigh? How many increases has he had? Is he good to go now? Thank you for thinking of my girl. Hoping Boriss is doing well.

[lulusmom]

Hi everyone:
I was awake all night knowing that I had to give Tipper the 20mg capsule of Vetoryl this morning. I have to do it in icriments of 10mg at a time so it was difficult tricking her with the food twice. I gave it to her at 7:15 am this morning. It is now 8:30 and I am still a nervous wreck.

Actually Vetoryl peaks quite rapidly, about 1 1/2 hours so if Tipper is okay now, I suspect she'll be okay the rest of the day. Just remember that Vetoryl has a short half life so if she does start to act a little punky due to cortisol being a bit low, she should rebound rather quickly by withholding the dose. I can guarantee you that you are taking this a lot harder than Tipper. Today is no different than yesterday for her and if that should change, she'll let you know. Try to calm your nerves and if you are sitting there wringing your hands, put those hands on the keyboard and continue to educate yourself on Vetoryl, how it works, how treatment is monitored and possible adverse effects. Knowledge is power and with power, comes calmness. You can find a wealth of information in our Helpful Resources section. http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

We are here if you need us for anything.

[goldengirl88]

Lulus' Mom:
Thank you for telling me all this. I try to educate myself on things, but at times read things I would rather not know, if that makes any sense. I am so relieved that you told me the peak time of Vetoryl. I am calm now, and we can get on with our day. I have put this all in the Lords' hands and do the best I can every day for Tipper. I think I can now take it easy for the rest of the day. Thank you so much.

[Boriss McCall]

I know it is really scary!! how is your baby today.

We still haven't gotten Boriss's numbers down were they should be. But, for my sanity & money we took a little break from the tests & increases since he is doing so good.

We started him out on 25mg's & are not up to 40mg's. I never noticed any negative reactions in him. Only positive thanks the LORD!
I am guessing he would really benefit from the morning/evening dose better. Might try that next. He gets a little more hungry in the evenings on some nights.

I am with you.. Watching them cry for food is just heart breaking.
That is the main reason why I was okay with trying the dose increase. I just could not take watching that anymore. He was miserable.
Right now he seems pretty good. I just know at his last test his numbers were still a little high. But, his symptoms are better. So, I am okay with giving him a break from all the trips to the vet.

Keep us posted on how things are going.

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
No problems with the increase of Tippers' dosage so far, thank God! She seems more calm not as jittery, and sleeping better. It seems to be effecting her stomach though. I give her Manuka Honey- I have for about 2 years now. She sometimes can get acid reflux. I noticed a few times her having loud gut noises the last couple nights. Could be from the 2 week antibiotic shot. I gave her some yogurt, and will see if that helps. She was hungry yesterday and today, but not chasing me around and begging all day like she was. It will probably take a week or two before her number comes down to where this completely stops. Last time that is how it worked for her, she kept inching downward for a while. I can already see improvement though. To watch a dog beg you and cry for food all day is so bad. It was heartbreaking and I know it had to be really bad for her. It would be enough to make you crazy being hungry all day long. Sometimes I wonder how Tipper does it- putting up with all this misery, testing, etc. She is a trooper, and I hope both our babies continue to be strong. Hope Boriss finally gets to the dose that will put him in a good place. That is so frustrating, I know. How much does Boriss weigh? I think the break from the tests is a good thing.

[Harley PoMMom]

Many members give Pepcid AC to their furbabies 20-30 minutes before the cushing medication to help alleviate tummy troubles.

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss is at around 28lbs right now. I sometimes have to give him pepcid AC as well. He will throw up bile occasionally. He was like that before he started the meds.

I am SO glad that things are getting better for you already. :):):)
Hopefully the hunger pains are going away for good.

Have a great week.. Can't believe tomorrow is Monday again already. :rolleyes:

[Boriss McCall]

How is Tipper doing on the increase?
Hope this week is running smooth for you two.

[mypuppy]

Hi Lori,

For future reference, since some dogs cannot tolerate the Pepcid, would you feel it is safe to give the SEB on a daily basis and prior to the trilo dose? Not sure if SEB can be used long term?

Thanks for your thoughts if any.

Warm regards. Xo Jeanette

[goldengirl88]

Jeanette:
Tipper cannot take Pepcid, it actually gived her a really, really bad stomach ache. I am interested in the SEB. Can you tell me what it is and where to get it? I will go over it with my Vet. thank you for the help.

[Harley PoMMom]

Slippery Elm Bark (SEB) is used for many issues, it coats the stomach and helps to diminish the accumulation of acid in the stomach. SEB is a good treatment for ulcers, gastritis, colitis, and other inflammatory bowel problems.

Here is a link about SEB: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/

[Boriss McCall]

Not to take away from Tipper. I have a quick question I noticed you mentioned ulcers & SEB. I have had reflux bad/GERD my entire life & the meds are really expensive. I wonder if I SEB would help me? What do you think?
Sorry to hijack the Tippers thread with a question. :o

[Harley PoMMom]

Not to take away from Tipper. I have a quick question I noticed you mentioned ulcers & SEB. I have had reflux bad/GERD my entire life & the meds are really expensive. I wonder if I SEB would help me? What do you think?
Sorry to hijack the Tippers thread with a question. :o

Although I have never used SEB myself, I think I would give it a try if my GERD bothered me. According to this article it can be used for GERD: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/slippery-elm-000274.htm
There has been little scientific research on slippery elm, but it is often suggested for the following conditions:

Sore throat
Cough
Gastroesophogeal reflux disease (GERD)
Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, and irritable bowel syndrom (IBS)
Diarrhea
Wounds, burns, boils, psoriasis, and other skin conditions (external)

[Boriss McCall]

Thank you!! I am going to give it a whirl. :)

[molly muffin]

Merry Christmas to you and Tipper.
Have a wonderful, safe Holiday.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Hope you all had a good holiday with loved ones. I am getting ready to take Tipper for another ACTH test in an hour. She just had her dosage adjusted to the 30mg 2 weeks ago. We are supposed to get really bad weather- we are in the snow belt, so I changed her appt. to make it earlier so we can get home. I hate to do this to her, but these tests are a must. She is always so upset afterwards. She is doing well on the 30mg, but at night every once and a while she gets hungry. Some of it is habit, as Jack Russells know exactly what time they eat, and what time their snack is. I have a question. I know that the fat redistribution from this disease can push on their lungs making it harder to breathe. Is anyone else's baby experiencing this? Do you have any suggestions for easing her breathing? Also the snoring they do. I have asked my Vet what causes this and he does not know. What is the mechanism responsible for causing this?? I have noticed Tipper sometimes making a "throaty" noise, and when she tried to sneeze the other day, it was as if something was stopping her from doing it, like she couldn't let it out like normal.Also when she drinks, I hear her making a funny raspy sound. Does anyone else have any experience with anything like this? Other than the breathing problems we don't seem to be having any other issues. other than the licking. I haven't been on here in a while, as sometimes this gets too much for me to handle. Tipper is going to get a blood panel done also to make sure no other problems are cropping up. I wish for all of us a better New Year, and for the babies better health. Thank you all and God Bless you and your fur babies, and God help the people from Newtown. I will post Tippers numbers when I get them probably Friday.

[mytil]

Hi Tipper's mom,

I am wondering if the throat, rasping sound and breathing issues could be related to trachea issues (collapsing). Or, possibly allergies.

Terry

[goldengirl88]

Terry:
I do not think so as she never had any problem before she started snoring with the Cushings. Thank you for your help I appreciate it.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
I got Tippers latest results back today and need some help to go in the right direction. They are as follows:
Tipper is on 20 mg Vetorl morning 10 mg at night
ACTH
Pre: 1.5 Last one was 1.4
Post 5.4 Last one was 8.7

The blood panel is where I need help also:
BC Ratio 30 no lab guide was 18 on last one in October
Triglycerides 625 { 20-150} lab guide Last blood work in October - result was 494
HGB 19.9 {12-18} in October this was 19.1
HCT 59.5 {37*55} in October 54.9
Reticulocyte 153 {10-110} in October 97
Absolute Lymphocyte 985 {1000-4800}
Albumin 4.3 {2.5-4.0} October it was 4.3

Could this possibly mean that Tipper is starting into Hemolytic Anemia??? These were all the highs and lows. Everything else was normal. On all her other blood work this is the first time she had a high Reticulocyte reading.
Is her ACTH where it should be. She is doing fine and every once in a while gets hungry at nite before her evening Vetoryl 10 mg. Has anyone else had experience with this and what should I be doing ?? If this means Tipper is becoming anemic what do I need to do immediately??? Thank you all kindly in advance, and God Bless all your babies.

[lulusmom]

Was Tipper fasted for the bloodwork? Was there any mention of hemolysis? I hope Debbie drops in to share her experience but I have commented below about the results:


ACTH
Pre: 1.5 Last one was 1.4
Post 5.4 Last one was 8.7
These are great results, especially if all of Tipper's symptoms have resolved.


BC Ratio 30 no lab guide was 18 on last one in October

I realize there is no reference range but does the labwork say that 30 is high or low? I believe normal values are between 10 and 20 but I have no idea if this differs between labs. This value is a comparison of BUN and Creatinine. Do you have the individual results for these? A low value indicates an increased creatinine or low bun. The bun is commonly low in cushdogs so a low ratio is what we are used to seeing. A high ratio is consistent with low creatinine or high BUN.


Triglycerides 625 { 20-150} lab guide Last blood work in October - result was 494

I asked about hemolysis and fasting because excessive fat in the blood that can cause an elevation and so can a recent meal. Cushing's and other systemic diseases like diabetes and hypothyrodism can also cause this increase.


HGB 19.9 {12-18} in October this was 19.1

This would be considered an inconsequential elevation which can be caused from mild dehydration. I'm not completely sure but I think if Tippy had anemia, HGB would be low. Where are you Debbie? :D


HCT 59.5 {37*55} in October 54.9

This would also be considered a mild elevation and again, can be caused from mild dehydration. As with HGB, I think this value would be low if anemia was involved.


Reticulocyte 153 {10-110} in October 97

I have to take a pass on this one as I'm unsure under what circumstances other than anemia, this value would be elevated.


Absolute Lymphocyte 985 {1000-4800}

Not a very significant abnormality and I believe that stress can cause this.


Albumin 4.3 {2.5-4.0} October it was 4.3

Again, not a very big elevation and mild increases are commonly chalked up to mild dehydration.

Did your vet discuss the results of the blood work with you? If so, what did s/he have to say about it? I'll send Debbie a PM and ask her share her thoughts on the bloodwork. She'll let you know if I'm full of it. :D

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Yes the lab considered 30 on the BC high. She never had this before, all these elevations are recent. Tipper did however have a meal before the bloodwork, as she was having the ACTH the same day and had to eat for that test. Her Triglycerides are so high though, could a meal cause them to be this high? It scares me. The Vet really never gets into a discussion with me about the results. He says he is going to go over all this with the vet at Dechra, and will get back to me. I question him thoroughly on everything, and I think he doesn't like me doing that. So he tries to put me off. He is as slow as molasses so that is why I was scared about the BC if I needed to do something right away that is why I came here. I trust the people on here before the vet as his experience with this is very limited. If I don't get the right answers off of him soon, I will call the vet at Dechra myself, as I have done in the past. My Vet never seems to have any sense of urgency for anything. The Bun was 27 the range was 7-27 and the creatinine was 0.9 range was 0.4-1.8 Glucose was 95. Thank you Glynda I always can count on you for the straight information. Let me know what else you think after reading this.

[lulusmom]

I think some of the abnormalities are definitely because Tipper was not fasted. That includes the high Bun Creatinine Ratio. The Bun was at upper limit of normal but creatinine was very normal so non fasting would explain the higher ratio. Not fasting can also cause fairly high triglycerides, especially if Tipper is on a higher fat or higher carb diet.

The acth stimulation test results are good so if all symptoms are much better or completely resolved, a call to Dechra would not normally be necessary. If your vet has to call Dechra so they can interpret Tipper's other bloodwork, I'd be pretty concerned about his experience or lack thereof. IMO, there is absolutely no reason why any vet should get annoyed with a pet owner for taking a proactive participation in their dog's treatment and asking questions. If your vet is not willing to sit down with you to discuss the results of the blood work and answer any questions you have, without copping an attitude, I would suggest you either 1) ignore his unmerited annoyance and don't leave the office until he's answered all of yoiur questions or 2) find another vet who is very experienced with cushing's and appreciates an educated pet owner. Believe me, I've interviewed more than a few vets over the years and none of them have thrown me out of their office....a few probably thought about it but managed to keep their composure. :D I trust very few gp vets to know their butt from a hole in the ground where cushing's is concerned so I'm very picky about who treats my cushdog, and my other medically needy kids for that matter.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Thank you for taking the time to help me. Tipper is on a low carb diet. She eats Hills WD and some chicken breast, that's it. When she first started with the Cushings and was tested her Triglycerides were high, somewhere I read Cush dogs do get these higher numbers. I don't see how it could be her diet, as she gets nothing else except maybe a piece of carrot or a bean. The Vet I have is the best of the ones around here, and I try to put up with him for the sake of an emergency situation with Tipper. I think the reason he wants to check everything out with the Dechra Vet is that he knows I research everything he tells me, and am sure he wants a second opinion. He never called me today, so I will call the Vet at Dechra. Basically I am the one who finds the solutions and just use him for any meds etc. That is why I got Dr. Peterson as a consultant, I am aware of the short comings of my Vet and I always double and triple check everything before I let him do anything. We live in the country and this is the best way I can manage things. I never, never ever trust him under any circumstances. It's a shame, but it is what it is. There is also a younger Vet in the practice that I talk these things over with. This is the best situation I could come up with. I am with Tipper 24/7 I never leave her, so that is one saving grace. I am able to see any problems and deal with them quickly. I do all the work, and the Vet collects all the money. Oh well enough I cannot dwell on it. I will have some answers on all this tomorrow, and will post then. Again thank you for all you do for me.

[lulusmom]

Just wanted to mention that WD is not a low carb diet. It is actually kinda high in carbs with corn being the first ingredient. Corn has a fairly high glycemic index which I believe will increase triglycerides after a meal. You are correct that cushing's can be responsible for high triglycerides but once the cortisol is reduced, those elevations should normalize. It could be a combination of both.

I totally understand your predicament with your vet and all I have to say is Tipper is sure lucky to have you as her mom and excellent advocate. Before long, you will be qualified to run your vet's office and see patients. :D Keep up the good work.

Glynda

[molly muffin]

While I haven't a clue about the blood work results and what they mean, it's really good to see Tippers ACTH results, being so good compared to last time and symptoms abated.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene and Glynda:
Thank you both for your help. I questioned my Vet when he put Tipper on WD and he said the nutritionist at Hills said this is what she should be on. I told him the first ingriedient was corn and that did not make sense to me to put her on this. She was eating Newmans Own for Senior dogs prior to this. Can anyone recommend a good low carb diet for her??? I am going to contact the Vet at Dechra now and will let you know what he says. I thank God for you all every day, you are so much help considering the Vet problems I have to deal with. To think I got him and all his staff some baked goodies for Christmas, to try and break thru to them that I am not trying to be a bitch, I am just trying to save my dogs life. None of them even thanked me so I guess that is a message in itself. All I want form them is a little cooperation, fighting this uphill battle with them is daunting to say the least. My Dr. has had to give me a mild tranquilizer because of my blood pressure being high from all this stress.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
I forgot to add there was nothing I saw about Hemolysis on Tippers report- there was no comment beside it. If Tipper gets hungry occasionally at night are her symptoms still considered gone or do we need to increase further?

[lulusmom]

Does Tipper eat twice a day? If not, try splitting her meals. I have always had tiny dogs who burn fuel rather quickly so feeding twice daily prevents hypoglycemic episodes. It's better for the metabolism and makes a dog less likely to get fat, especially those who enjoy gorging with open feeding. Did your vet put Tipper on WD because she is overweight?

Choosing a dog food is a very personal thing and pet owners should do their own homework on what is best for their dog. We all have our own opinions of what food is best and my opinion is that unless my dog needed to be on a prescription diet and there was no alternative, I would not feed my dog anything made by Hills and certainly not long term. However, I have heard that WD is great for weight loss and a lot of dogs with diabetes do well on it. I use a site called dogfoodadvisor.com to check out ingredient. Here is a link to WD: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/hills-prescription-diet-wd-canine-dry/

[goldengirl88]

Tipper actually eats breakfast, tiny lunch, supper, snack. I measure out 1 cup of dogfood a day and all of her meals and snacks come from that. I have done this with her for years. I am ditching the Hills food, and going back to the Newmans Own until I find something better. She was put on the Hill WD by the Vet as she was around 16.5 when the Cushings started and now at 17.5. He said the nutritionist at Hills said for Cushings this is what she should eat. I don't believe either of them to tell you the truth, so I will go back to her other food for now. Thank you again for your help, I really need it.

[Squirt's Mom]

Here is the latest from Hill's Science Diet. :rolleyes:

http://dogventuring.blogspot.com/2012/09/science-diet-to-have-plastic-coasted.html

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well after much research I have decided to stay with Newmans Own Dogfood. It is only a 4 star instead of 5, but it has never been recalled, and that is very important to me. Well just as I anticipated my Vet has still not called me about Tipper so I spoke with Dechra yesterday about Tippers blood work and ACTH results. I faxed everything to their Vet. He said nothing alarms him, just as Glynda had told me, but that she will need monitored on the Reticulocyte since it jumped up. Because Tipper is experiencing breathing problems at night, an Xray was suggested of her lungs heart etc. I will arrange to get it done asap. Also with Tipper getting a little hungry at night, they told me to monitor it for another week or 2 as it may have become a behavior problem. If she is still truly hungry she may have to go on once a day dosing of 30 mg instead of the split of 20 mg in the morning and 20mg at night as they think maybe the 20 is not enough to carry her thru to nightime when most of this is happening. Agree or disagree?? Yesterday she drank more water than normal also. Does anyone have any good feed back for me on any of this? I would appreciate it, and thank you for your help.

[goldengirl88]

Hi again everyone:
I have some questions I need help with. I spoke to Dechra and told them Tipper has been drinking more, and getting hungry again. She is taking 20mg in the morning and 10 mg at night. It was suggested that she may have to take the whole 30 in the morning to get her thru the day as that seems to be the time she drinks more and is hungrier. Her latest stim a few days back- post was 5.4. They told me to withhold the dose the evening dose the night before the med change. With her number being low in reality what are her chances of crashing from this. I don't know if I can take much more, I am ready to break down. They also told me that this could make her really hungry in the morning then. Has anyone else done this and what has happened??? I don't want to swap one problem for one equally as bad. I also got some information I have been searching for since she got this disease. A Dr. online told me the breathing problems in these dogs is from increased calcification in there breathing tubes. It makes the lungs less elastic. Also the muscle weakness at the rib cage, accompanied by any pressure on the diaphram form increased liver size, or fat redistribution. She could not give me an answer for the snoring and throaty noises. I saw online many people with dogs and Cushings that have the snoring and throaty noises so I know I am not going crazy yet, and that the problem is not exclusive to Tipper. I am so scared if this gets any worse she will not be able to breathe. She has been up and restless at night also, a sign that the cortisol is not being controlled. Do you think I should do the 30 mg?? Please help I am about to go off the deep end with this. Sorry to go on and on, but you all know how it is.

[lulusmom]

Ya know, I am really starting to wonder about the folks at Dechra. It wasn't long ago that they were concerned about increasing the dose because the basal cortisol of 1.5 was low. Basal cortisol on new stim is even lower at 1.4 ug/dl but they don't seem to be concerned about that number anymore as they are now suggesting that Tipper be switched from 20mg am and 10mg pm to one 30mg dose in the am. :confused: Since Tipper seems to be more symptomatic in the evening, it makes more sense to me to up the evening dose. Knowing how Vetoryl works, it just seems logical to me that the morning dose is wearing off well before the pm dose is taken and at that point, the combination of the two doses is still too low to see resolution of symptoms through the night. That's my layperson's opinion, which differs greatly from two highly trained veterinarians, one of which is supposed to be intimately familiar with the drug his employer manufactures.

When switching to once daily dosing, be sure to follow instructions and skip the evening dose prior to starting new once daily dosing. Symptoms may get worse overnight but I don't think it's anything you can't handle. Also keep a very close eye on Tipper for signs of low cortisol once you start the new daily dosing.

Remember that Tipper's symptoms are not life threatening, nor painful for her so please try to relax. I know it's easier said than done because I've been in your shoes more than once. I know it's hard to relax when your precious pup is bugging the crap out of you for food. All you can do is give her fillers like green beans for the time being. I know it's frustrating to have to keep tweaking the dose until you find the right cocktail but you and Tipper will get there and we'll be here with you every step of the way. You are doing an excellent job.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Thank you for thinking of Tipper and I when I know your heart is broken in a million pieces. I will try to be strong like you and do what I need to do for her. I have already made sure that there will be a Dr. in in the morning or I would not give her a larger dose at one time. I have started crying for you and Lulu so that is all I am going to say for now. Pray for my Tipper and God Bless You.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
Didn't sleep a wink last nite worring about giving Tipper her whole dose at one time of 30 mg Vetoryl this morning. She had it at 7:30 this morning. I was a nervous wreck doing it, as all I have are boxes of 10mg capsules due to the split dosage she was on. I had to give her 3 pills, which was not easy tricking her 3 times. If she stays at 1 dosage in the morning I will get the 30mg when these run out. They are so expensive I am not going to discard them, and even though it is harder to give three pills, I cannot afford not to use them as they were 3x more expensive to give her the 10 mg than one 30mg. She seems to be dealing with it ok at present. This stuff makes me so nervous that I am afraid to leave her and go in the shower, so here we sit together as always. I just wanted to tell everyone that I think it was so gracious of Glynda to take the time and help me with Tipper, after all she has been thru with Lulu. It is a wonderful tribute to Lulu that Glynda reaches out to others at this most difficult time. I hope I can be as strong as she is when I am faced with that situation. I know Tippers meds have peaked by now, but in the back of my mind I have a fear of these dosage changes. I am taking Tipper on Thursday for a chest xray. Due to the fact she has had so many issues breathing at night, I need to know exactly what is going on with her heart and lungs. I pray that there are no other problems coming her way. I am praying for all your babies, say one for my Tipper please.

[molly muffin]

I hope everything goes well with the xray and there isn't anything seriously wrong.

Yes, she should have peaked by now. You'll want to see if you notice any changes in the first couple days.
I am sure that as closely as you watch Tipper that if anything does change that you will notice it and then can just not give the next dose. It does leave the system fairly quickly remember.

Hang in there.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Thank you as always for your help. Sometimes you just need a boost from a friend to lift you up. I will be watching her like a hawk. She seems to be a bit sleeping she keeps closing her eyes and blinking a lot. I hope to God this puts her where she needs to be. These poor babies go thru a lot with this disease. God Bless you and you babies.

[goldengirl88]

Hello everyone:
I just got back form the Vets with Tipper. Not great news. She had her chest Xray and it showed some mild enlargement of the right side of her heart. The other thing it showed was that her trachea is narrowed and is being constricted by the redistribution of fat in her body the fat is collapsing her trachea etc. That is why she is wheezing and making throaty noises. It is hard for her to breathe, and exhale. I am just sick over this. I put her on a harness immediately. I guess there is no way of telling if this fat will get worse, as I am scared of this cutting off her air. I had a breakdown at the Vets and a man waiting with his dog came to me and gave me a hug, he said I know how you feel. Does anyone know anything about this problem, and can offer me some insight??? I sure would appreciate it as this is definetly got me way down there today. It is not collapsing and she is coughing, it is her wheezing to breathe, and making funny sounds when she is drinking, I guess from the constriction. This has to be very hard for her to keep breathing like this. I swear this is the worst disease in so much as all the collatereal damage it causes. If anyone has any ideas please let me know, I just want to go to bed and pull the covers over my head and forget the whole world. God bless all of you and your babies.

[addy]

Hi Sweetie,

We will all climb in that bed and pull the covers up with you;) I know it is hard, one thing after another, it is hard to handle it all especially when you love a little one so very much.

We have members dealing with collapsing trachea and I am sure they will stop by. Actually my Koko, who is 5 years old, has a partially collapsing trachea. He never walks in a collar, I even took him off dry food as it made him gulp water. There are different grades of collasping trachea. Did the vet say if it was mild? Collapsing trachea is something we also see often in the small breed dogs that dont have Cushings. I believe there are medications to help the spasms.

I know Cushings is a very difficult disease and we often wait for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. It can be a roller coaster.

Hang in there. I know others will stop by to discuss collapsing trachea.

[scoora]

Tipper's mom-I hope you have a very large bed because Scoop and I will join you. I am so sorry to hear of Tipper's problem. I don't have any answers just a hug for you and Tipper. I agree with your feelngs on Cushing's. Hope you find some answers to the problem.

[goldengirl88]

Addy:
Thanks for thinking of us. It seems from what the Vet said it is not a spasm as much as the fat restricting the windpipe or trachia. He has some old xrays of her windpipe and he said he would dig them up, and compare them. He never does anything in a timely fashion, so I will more than likely have to get in a fight with him again to give me the information. It just wears you down when you have a Vet like the one we have. He said for her to lose weight. She has never been overweight, just a powerhouse of muscle. He says the muscle was wasted away by the Cushings and some of that turns into fat. Because she was so lean and muscular I had a hard time envisioning where all this fat was coming form that he said redistributes itself. I guess it is all the wasting away, I don't know for sure. He is not that educated in Cushings. I need a way to see if I can help her lay in a way this won't constrict her windpipe. It is only while she lays down that she has a problem breathing, especially while on her sides. If she lays straight down on her sternum, it is not as bad. The operations for this are too dangerous, and many die. Anybody thats dog is wheezing from this condition please chime in I need your input desperately. Also I found out it then narrows the dogs nasal passages- which can probably be the reason for everyones dogs that snore. Any help is appreciated, thank you in advance. I did read dieting does help some of these dogs with this.

[goldengirl88]

Vicky:
I appreciate your hug we sure need it, thank you and God Bless.

[addy]

Hi Vicky,

Checking in to see how you and Tipper are this weekend.

Just wanted to say hi and give some hugs:):):):)

[molly muffin]

Well this probably answers my question about why molly snores so much these days and sometimes I think she is sniffing loudly. We know she has an enlarged liver, so that is most likely the culprit, pushing fat around.
So, while I don't have any answers. You aren't alone in this.
I'll be asking about this at Molly's next visit too.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I found out that the reason Tipper can no longer sneeze is because of the trachea problem. It inverts the sneeze. Tipper is on 30 mg Vetoryl in the morning. She has been very restless at night. She just had her dosage changed and is not due for a stim yet for a while. I am reading that the tremors are caused by uncontrolled cortisol?? I thought someone said they were a side affect of the Vetoryl?? I don't want to run and get her another stim test as she is not due yet, but I don't want any more fat moving around from cortisol not being controlled because of it pressing on her trachea. I don't know if she is restless because of her breathing difficulties or the 30 mg is not controlling her cortisol. She weighs 17 lbs and the next step up would be 40 mg Vetoryl. I don't know what to do here. Has anyone heard of a BNP test to see how the heart is functioning?? If so are they real expensive??- I believe it is a blood test. I need some guidance about the muscle contractions, Tipper only gets them at night when laying down. Sometimes it is like a ripple effect across her rib cage. If you have any thoughts I would appreciate it.

[gummysmurf]

Hi Tipper's mom, I don't have a lot of experience to offer you, but I was wondering, is there any way you can find another vet? Are you seeing an internal medicine specialist? I had so many mistaken diagnosis from my "local" vet as opposed to the specialist, it wasn't even funny. I highly recommend any university vet clinic you can find. They are usually cheaper and they really seem to know what they are doing.

As far as the heart goes, my limited understanding is that an enlargement indicates that the heart is having to work harder for some reason. In my boxer's case, they monitored size because one of his ventricles wasn't constricting properly and enlargement would have indicated that the condition was getting worse and the heart was working harder to compensate. The tests that we got were EKGs and echocardiograms. I don't know if that helps you any, but blood tests weren't used to monitor the heart in our case. If I remember right I think they may have even done an ultrasound to take a look at the heart.

PS the echocardiogram was about $300.00 if I remember correctly. This was at our super fancy expensive specialist though.

[goldengirl88]

Gummysmurf:
I think Tipper's heart enlargement is due to the breathing difficulty and it is putting more stress on her heart. There are no specialists we live in the country. I am however having the vet look up xrays of Tippers chest and trachea from a few years ago to compare them. I do not always trust his judgement, as he has steered me wrong before, so that is why I am out here searching for help again. I am hesitant on putting her on Bronchodialators as she is allergic to everything. I need to find a solution to ease her breathing and fast, before anything else happens. Of course my Vet has been off since Friday and comes back Tuesday so I have to wait until tomorrow. Thank you for the help, I will see what I need to do. The blood test I was referring to tells you if the heart is working properly, then you have to go from there. I researched this online, and that said it was a good indicator of heart problems.

[gummysmurf]

I wonder...if you could have an online consultation? I don't know if this is even possible, but my cardiologist here in Atlanta was awesome, and so sweet. I wonder if he'd be able to look at case history and so forth from emailed x rays and records, without examining your little guy in person? If nothing else he could consult with your regular vet and guide him in what to do. Not sure if they will do it, but it's worth an ask. I think a consult cost me $60.00, but that was when the IMS was seeing my dog at the same facility.

I bet your nearest univ hospital cardiologist may be able to do the same. When Baxter was getting cancer treatment out of state, the oncologist said she could walk my primary vet through treatment if need be - and I emailed her x rays and lab test results.

Just some ideas - it may put some of your doubts to rest if you got a second opinion from someone with more specialized experience.

Wishing you the best of luck and the best possible diagnosis!!

[goldengirl88]

Gummysmurf:
Thank you for the help. Please read my post to everyone to see what I decided to do with Tipper. God Bless you and your furbaby.

[Squirt's Mom]

Gummysmurf:
Thank you for the help. Please read my post to everyone to see what I decided to do with Tipper. God Bless you and your furbaby.

uummmm....could you point out this post you are referring to? I am lost! :o And I, for one, would really like to know what you have decided "to do with Tipper". :D

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
After a ton of research and several times going round and round with the Vet this is what I have decided to do with Tipper regarding her problems. When I kept telling everyone Tipper had labored breathing and wheezing etc, this is what the problem was. When your dog gets Cushings it narrows their nasal passages, which in turn inhibits breathing causing snoring. Due to the extra stress of trying to breathe Tipper's right side of her heart became enlarged. To see a cardiologist here is 600.00 for the visit and ultra sound. Since you can't reverse the damage I must think of the smartest way to use my money to help Tipper. The Vet told me if she sees the cardiologist that she may have to go on powerful drugs for the heart that have consequences for usage as with everything else. He said knowing what he knows about those drugs he would never use them himself, that he would use this supplement. Tipper's heart enlargement is small.

I found a supplement called Cardio Strength from Vetri Science a really reliable laboratory. My Vet said he had a dog that had a heart really enlarged, and was retaining fluid, very sick, and it is still going strong 2 years after starting this supplement. Everything in it is to help support the vascular system, including COQ 10. So I have decided to use it and ordered some, it is chewable. If anyone is interested I will tell you the cheapest place to get it. Anyone who has a dog experiencing breathing problems I would say try it as maybe your dog won't develop heart problems, as its heart will be well supported. I wish I would have know this earlier.

Also, Tipper has the collapsing trachea adding to the breathing problem. I have found a product called Glyco Flex lll that supports new cartlidge growth in the body, also chewable.This is also excellent for arthritis- so double benefits. Since the cartlidge is weakend in the dogs windpipe causing it to collapse, my Vet said this was an excellent product to use on her. I have ordered both products, and will start them as soon as I get them.

I also ordered Tipper a vaporizer, as most of the breathing problems are when she lays down at night. It has a UV light in it to kill any germs since these dogs sre so prone to infection, I don't want her breathing any germs accumulating from water in the vaporizer. I checked with the Vet first as I was going to add Eucalyptus Radiata essential oil to it. He said that was a great idea as it does many good things. I was ready to order it, and thank goodness I checked to see if it would be harmful to my parrot Elvis. Birds cannot breathe essential oils, so if you have one do not put it in the vaporizer. You can use it internally( I would not do this), you can wipe it on their neck, put it in a vaporizer, or put some on a cloth and let them smell it, while they are sleeping for a few seconds at a time. I ordered some and will be letting her smell it.

Also, I found out coconut oil, and the Manuka honey I have always used on her are excellent for this. The coconut oil has to be used sparingly at first because it may make loose greasy stools. I would never give more than 1/4 teaspoon at first. Tipper loves the taste - I thought she would hate it. I am all for natural healing powers.

If I can find an accupuncturist I may even give that a try, as I have read it is beneficial to these dogs. I have to see about the cost though.

I know this is a long post, but I figured that maybe some of this may help someone else, since everyone has been so kind to help us. It may not be realistic, but I told my Vet, I will some how keep my Tipper going no matter what, as long as she is not in pain. I have never loved, and been so attached to a companion animal in my life, and I am doing this for both of us, I need her. Please pray that all of this helps her.

Also, in trying to keep her weight down, I went on the Dog Food Adviser web site searching for a low fat dogfood. I cannot find any 4-5 star foods that have not been recalled except the one I have fed her for years, Newmans Own. It has 10% fat and no grain, and organic human grade chicken. Does anyone know of a lower fat, good food that has not been recalled at some time? When they get recalled, and start using ingredients I cannot pronounce-that probably come form China I will not use them. I started cutting Tipper back on her dogfood. She gets 1 cup a day and that is it. She weighs over 17 lbs now because she has not been walking as much as she did due to the cold here.

Please if you have dogs with breathing problems- especially like Tipper with a heart problem now, be cautious of the cold. It makes it harder for them to breath in cold weather. Tipper used to walk a few mile a day. She gets real upset if she doesn't walk, but I have to weigh the consequences of the stress on her heart. I only take her if it is 32 or above. I truly hope that some of this will help someone.

My last tip- make sure you know how to give your dog CPR, and how to help a dog that is choking on food without further injuring them, as you only have 3 minutes to get them breathing. You can go online and watch videos on this free, and I would get anyone else in the house to watch also. I refresh myself by looking at them periodically, as you tend to forget some things. This may sound stupid, but I even have a small stuffed dog toy I have practiced on.

God Bless You all, and all you fur babies.

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
I just made a decision to take Tipper for accupuncture and made an appointment. It is over an hour away, but I weighed the options, and want every advantage I can get for her. I will just have to cut other things in my budget, and cut other things out all together to afford this. It is the only way I can afford doing all of this. Our medicine here only treats the symptoms afterwards, Eastern Medicine is about getting the body and immune system healthy. So I want to combine both. This will probably make my Vet angry as his ego is as big as the sky, but that is too bad. I need to know I did all I could possibly do to help her. She has a 1 hour appt. on Feb 6th, as they have to get all her Dr.'s notes and xrays from my Vet, so the Dr. there can review them before our appt. They then do a thorough exam of her before they even do any accupuncture if it is even possible on her. I will never give up on my Tipper, I have to keep searching for that miracle.

[goldengirl88]

Squirts' Mom and everyone:
Please everyone read my post on my page 19. It is very long, and has another short one after that Thank You

[Squirt's Mom]

My Squirt has been taking the GlycoFlex III for several years now and I cannot say enough good things about this product! It is chock full of wonderful things that help inflammation of any kind and offers some great support in other areas as you mentioned.

Vetri Science seems to be a great lab tho the GlycoFlex is the only one of their products I have tried. Let me know how well the Cardio Strength works for Tipper. I had started Squirt on CoQ10 a while back but her poops got weird on it so I stopped it.

Mine all get coconut oil, as well. It is great for coats, digestion, skin to name only a few. Starting with a low dose and building to tolerance level (when looser stools appear) is the right way to handle it, too.

A tip for you - if you use a collar on Tipper for walks, stop. Get her a harness that will not put any pressure on the throat area and that will make her walks much more pleasant and not cause further damage. ;)

I have never used the Manuka honey but hear wonderful things about it for humans as well as our companion pets so I look forward to hearing more about Tipper's experiences with it, too.

I hope you find the acupuncture is very beneficial to Tipper; I know several here have used this with good results.

Let us know what the Holistic vet has to say and what herbs, etc he/she recommends. I know very little about the Eastern approaches - TMC, Ayurveda, etc - but they fascinate me. They look at systems in an entirely different way than we do in the Western world and have been practicing their methods for centuries. They are among the oldest known medical approaches.

As for feed, what you have found is a good feed and should be ok for Tipper. Of course, the best way to know what is best is to simply feed it and see how it works for her. It is getting more and more difficult, not to mention downright scary, finding reliable high quality feeds. If you would be interested in home cooking for Tipper, I can point you to a couple of ladies that would be glad to help.

You are doing a good job to make the best life possible for your sweet girl. I know exactly what you mean about doing everything in your power to give her what she needs. We will can't give up; we have to keep fighting for as long as they can. Tipper is one lucky girl to have you as her mom.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
Thank you for all your help. I will certainly share any information with everyone that I get from the holistic Vet. We all need all the help we can get. I did get Tipper a harness, and her humidifier just came so I am going to go get it ready to start up. I will fight to my last breath to help my girl. Thank you for the encouragement, we all need it once and a while.

[molly muffin]

I hope so much that this combination helps Tipper. Do let us know how the supplements work, if they help to bring down numbers and with breathing, etc.

You're doing good!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[scoora]

I wish you the best of luck with everything you are doing for Tipper.

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
By chance I just learned from a previous patient that the Holistic Vet I was going to take Tipper to, ordered many tests on her cat that was not eating. After hundreds of dollars, her regular Vet found that the cats only problem was a bad tooth. Due to that little tid bit I have cancelled my appointment and am in search of a new Holistic Vet. Will let you know what happens. I wanted to tell anyone that has a baby with snoring or breathing problems that the vaporizer I used on Tipper last night helped a lot. She had a more peaceful night.

[addy]

Thank goodness you found out about the vet before you went. Im glad to hear Tipper had a good night and the vaporizer is working.

You are doing a fantastic job!!

[goldengirl88]

Addy:
Thanks I am trying my best to help her. Some things work out and others don't so all I can do is keep looking for that miracle.

[molly muffin]

Oh yea, glad you found out about that before you went. sheezzz
We just keep doing what we can for them and looking for the next step.
Good news about the vaporizer!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hello Everyone:
Just a short update on Tipper. The vaporizer has worked out great for my girl. She is able to breathe with a lot less difficulty now, so if your dog is snoring give it a try. She will be having an ACTH coming up next week, a urine test, and an ultra sound to see where we stand with the adrenal glands etc. This will be her first ACTH since she started on 30 mg Vetoryl in the morning. I hope her number is not too low as I did read about the adrenal necrosis that comes with that. Are you all using cranberry to ward off the bladder infections, if not hwat are you using and does it work? I started Tipper on the Heart Health, and Glyco Flex on Friday. I truly hope it can help her situation. I wish the Heart Health capsule was not so large as it is hard to disguise with enough food without choking her as she gulps it. She really needs to support her heart so I will have to deal with it somehow. I just wish these companies would think things thru before manufacturing them. It would be a blessing to have it as small as the Vetoryl. This girly is taking more supplements than me!. Tipper is still having a lot of muscle contractions in her back legs especially, I can even see her eyebrows twitching as she sleeps. I hope this is a side effect of the Vetoryl and not a sign that the cortisol is not under control. I have asked that question several times so if anyone has the answer please let me know. God Bless us all and all the fur babies.

[molly muffin]

Great news about the vaporizer working! Hopefully the supplements will work and we are all watching for those results very carefully on your thread.
I think the only way to tell if something is due to cortisol being uncontrolled vs a vetoryl reaction is for an ACTH test to be done to see where the cortisol is at. If the test next week, shows her in a good level for her cortisol, then you can more than likely attribute the leg contractions to the vetroyl. I'm basing that on what what others on the medicine has reported.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
As always thank you for the information, you are always a great help to us. I have to take Tipper for her blood pressure tomorrow, and the roads etc. are really bad here we got lots of snow over night. Hope all the babies are doing well, God Bless.

[molly muffin]

Be careful and just take it slow on the roads. I left the office early today as we are getting a bit and the roads got messy. Thank goodness I took the 4x4 in to the office today. I'm a lousy winter driver I admit and prefer to not be on the roads at all. If I am though, I want 4 wheel drive to be able to get out of the way if someone else gets into trouble (or myself).
Crossing fingers for a good BP tomorrow! (remember if it's too bad, then a BP can be rescheduled)

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
Took it slow today and got Tippers BP done. She was very excited this morning and I couln't even get her ready. I think she thought she was going for a walk. She hasn't walked for the last 3 days because of the temperature, and she is getting wild. So her BP was up high today at 190. That really scares the heck out of me. I brought her haome and made her lay down a while to calm down.. It has never been this high, and I think because she was so excited before we left that it caused this reading. Tipper is such high energy that she has to walk and burn it up. God Bless us all and all our babies.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Got all geared up for Tippers tests today, only to get to the Vets and find out he just got called out on an emergency. Geez oh man!!!! Oh well we rescheduled for next Wed. Will let you all know what happens. Hope everyone has a good week, and God Bless all of us and the babies.

[scoora]

Too bad you had to make the trip and then not get the tests done. Like you said, you get all geared up for it then... Hopefully the vet was able to help what ever the emergency was and they are OK. Have a good rest of the day.
Hugs to you and Tipper.

[Boriss McCall]

Oh man.. that stinks! I guess everything happens for a reason. Tipper gets a break from vets until next week.

[addy]

Guess it happened for a reason but a pain none the less.

[molly muffin]

Next week it is then. Some things are just uncontrollable. Nice to know that in an emergency your vet will go.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Addy:
I read in one of your writings that your dog had glaucoma. How was that discovered, what were the symptoms, and did you go to an eye specialist or what. Was Cushings the cause? I am curious because several months ago I noticed a change in the appearance of Tippers eyes. My Vet checked them and told me she is just getting old, not too sure I ever believe him without checking things out somewhere else. She has not exhibited any sight problems, but I was just wondering how this was detected in your dog. Thank You and God Bless

[Boriss McCall]

Not sure if my case was different. but, I had a bulldog who got glaucoma. I think your vet would know for sure if that is what it was. It is very painful for the dog. At least in my case. There was lots of pressure on the eye. But, he was also in the throws of meningitis. :(

[goldengirl88]

Good Morning Everyone:
Very cold morning here in the East. Hope it warms up as Tipper needs to walk, and because of her heart I only take her when it is above 32. She has been very naughty this week because she cannot understand why she is not walking. She is such a high energy breed that she has to burn off the excess, or there will be consequences!!! She has walked miles every day since she was a puppy, and she seems to think she is being punished, and keeps running to the door begging to go. I wanted to ask opinions on this subject as it will be coming up for Tipper in March. It's the old vaccine question. Are you still continuing to vaccinate your Cush dogs? I have read so many thing against it- especially the flea protection. I am concerned however since we live in kind of a country setting that has wildlife roaming, about Tipper picking up something when not vaccinated. I guess Distemper is a big worry. I also read, I think on here, about people vaccinating their dogs and the dogs passing not too long afterward. Tipper will be due for shots in March so I need to make an informed decision. I know she can have a titre done for rabies, but don't know what to do about the others. Also I found towelettes from Vetri Science with all natural flea repellents, which I will use now. Just wondering how everyone feels about this? Tipper is going for the Stim tomorrow, blood panel and urine, so okeep her in your prayers. God Bless all of us and the fur babies. Looking forward to some input on these vaccines.

[SoggyDoggy]

Good luck for the Stim tomorrow! Hope the results come in exactly whre you want them.

I will also be very interested to see what others say about the vaccine situation. Obviously vaccines differ between countries, but it's still an interesting question.. I have no idea what the US vaccines are like so I can't comment, but will face a similar question myself in May. Especially as Fraser is allergic to one one them! :eek:

[labblab]

Hi there! Since you are asking about vaccination, here is a link to another member's thread in which we had a pretty extensive conversation last spring. If you start with the reply in the link and then keep scrolling onward (even onto the next page in the link because there are several more related replies there), I think you will get a variety of opinions and information which should be helpful as you make up your own mind as to what is best and safest for Tipper.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?p=72003#post72003

I wrote a couple of long relies that you'll see in that link, so I'll not bore you by repeating my comments here. But for me, the bottom line is that there is no single answer that is the best for every dog -- Cushpup or not. You need to factor in your dog's age, overall health, lifestyle, geographic home, and vaccination history. These are all factors to discuss in detail with your vet in order to weigh the risks/benefits of any given vaccine for your baby. I will add, though, that for any vaccines that are given -- do check to see whether there is a multi-year version available (for instance, 3-year rabies and 3-year distemper/parvo). If possible, it seems decidedly preferable to lessen the frequency of vaccination whenever possible and to avoid annual shots when you can. Some vaccines just don't confer immunity for any longer than that, such as shots for the bacterial infection, leptospirosis, or for kennel cough. But ongoing research is demonstrating that many other vaccines confer immunity for a longer time period than originally believed.

Marianne

[addy]

I know she can have a titre done for rabies, but don't know what to do about the others.

You can titer more than rabies, ask your vet which vaccines he can titer Tipper.


Distemper + Parvovirus,MLV (optional = titer)

hugs,

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
It's a freezing cold blustery day here in the Northeast, but the Vets office just called with Tipper's test results. My regular Vet is out of town so I got the substitute. Her ACTH was Pre- 2 and Post- 3.5 so she is at a really good place finally. I guess the answer to my question about whether the cortisol or the Vetoryl was causing her tremors at night is answered. It has to be a side effect of the Vetoryl. Also he said the blood work was "all fine", whatever that means. I will wait until I get the hard copies myself, and then post them and we can determine if he is right according to the forum. Also, her urine was perfect, she is concentrating it, no crystals or protein. Because this disease can cause kidney problems from the medication etc. I am starting her on a renal support supplement today, and some powder to keep her PH low in her bladder. I believe in being proactive to situations instead of reactive. That method has always served me well. Tipper will be getting about 8 supplemental products a day. I checked with the Vet and there are no adverse side effects for long term use for any of them, and he did approve of all of them. I know from my Lupus that after I started taking supplements to support my organs that my blood work would come back much better. So I know they do work. I will continue using them as long as they are keeping her in a "good place." Usually I am so depressed about my Tipper that I am crying all the time, but today I cried because I was so happy with her results.I just had a big cry fest!! She will not have to have that rotten ACTH for 3 months- yahoo!!!!!! I will however be taking her the week after next for an ultra sound to see if her adrenal glands are back to normal. This will be her third time for this, and I am hoping for good news with this also. It is nice to be able to take a breather for a day, and not be crying and petrified something bad is going to happen! I hope you are all doing well, and keeping warm if you are in the Northeast. God Bless Us All, and Our Babies.

[milosmom]

nice to read your tipper is doing well,your doing a fantastic job taking care of your litl one.best regards,patty(milo)meka xoxox

[labblab]

Oh, I'm so happy to read your good news, too!!!!!!!

I see you're planning to repeat the ultrasound, though, and I just want to warn you that, because of its mode of action, trilostane treatment itself is typically associated with enlargement of the adrenal glands. So I'm afraid you cannot judge Tipper's treatment progress on the basis of her adrenal imaging. Unless there is some other reason why you want to have the ultrasound done, I'd encourage you to save that money for other medical needs.

Here's a related link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14703251

Marianne

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
When Tipper first got diagnosed her adrenal glands were so enlarged, the second time they were down considerably. I assumed we would need to repeat to see if they are normal. Are you saying they will never return to normal size? If so I may opt to spend the money more wisely. Thank you so much for the help.

[labblab]

Yes, I think it's very possible that her adrenals will never return to their original size. I've just now added a link to my earlier reply that you may want to take a look at.

[Boriss McCall]

Hi,

Hope your week is going good. My IMO sent paperwork to the city for me stating that Boriss will no longer have vaccinations do to his illness.
Did you decide what you are going to do for Tipper?

Amy

[molly muffin]

This is fabulous news!!! I couldn't be happier for you and Tipper.

One day when you have the time and feel like it, could you just do a simple post, called Supplements that I give Tipper and list all of them and what they are specifically for?
I think this could be very valuable information to be able to see clearly for many members and even those who never become members but read the forum to try and find information/help for their babies.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
I am glad you asked about the vaccines. I have decided that Tipper will no longer get them. I hope and pray that is the right decision. I am going to limit her exposure in the common areas where we live, and keep her on the road out of the grass where other animals go. My only real concern is Parvo, because in the state she is already in that would be the final straw. I am glad Boriss is doing better on the split dosage. It is so hard to get them where they need to be with their numbers. I too am scared to death about the macrotumors. Just a few nites ago Tipper displayed that circling behavior, but when I called her she looked at me. It only lasted for a few seconds. It just scares me to death and is always in the back of my mind also. I saw a dog with inner ear problems and they exhibit the same behavior, so I am trying to make myself believe it could be that or I will go bonkers. God Bless you and your sweet Borris.

[Boriss McCall]

I am definitely no longer doing his rabies shot. I wonder if I should be doing the other shots? Anyone else on here have input on that?

[addy]

Hi Guys,

I personally would see which vaccines your vet can titer and then decide on the risk for your pup. Koko only needed a rabies shot this year and Zoe doesn't get any vaccines anymore nor do I titer her.
It is such an individual assessment for each dog. I don't think it is a one size fits all answer.

[Boriss McCall]

very true! I feel good about not getting Boriss any shots since he is home most all of the time not around other dogs. He never goes to the kennel or the dog park. Mainly just hangs around people & his sister.

[lulusmom]

Please take a look at the Dr. Dodds' suggested vaccine schedule. You'll note that duration of immunity for Parvo vaccine is 7 years and probably lifetime. There is some controversy regarding the usefulness of titers; however, the experts on immunology like Dr. Ronald Schultz and Dr. Jean Dodds recommend them in lieu of administering an unnecessary vaccine.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Thank you. I have been thinking about you, and hope you are doing well. Tipper and I will keep you in our prayers. God Bless You.

[goldengirl88]

Hello Everyone:
I said I would post Tipper's numbers when I got the hard copy. So here we go:
Alk Phos was 36 the range was 10-150
Alt was 23 the range was 5-107
Triglycerides are still way up there at 609 range 20-150
HGB 20.2 range 12-18
HCT 59.0 range 37-55
Reticulocyte 158 range 10-110 [ this is concerning to me was 153 last time]
Her urinalysis was all good and she is concentrating her urine, but the Bilirubin said 1+ and the range is Negative.

I am over the moon that she has a good report for once so I will just have to suck it up on the things that were high. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Reticulocyte going up a few? I am not sure why this is high does anyone have any ideas? I thanked God a million times over for my girl getting such a good report. We have truly been blessed this time around. My Vet called the Vet at Dechra, and gave them the results. Don't know if you all knew this but Dechra keeps a file on your pet. Any time I have any reports, or questions I call and get or give info. It may help other dogs when they compile results so I keep them informed. The Dechra Vet was elated with Tipper's results. Of course my Vet took all the credit, and thinks he's super Vet now! Mean while I am the one who researched and did everything!!! Oh well I don't care as long as my precious girl is doing ok. I hope with all my heart that I can keep her going on this path. I am hoping that all of your babies can get some good results, and are feeling good for the coming spring. Since Tipper now has that heart problem from this I have to look into a "cooling vest" that she can wear while walking, as this affects her ability to cool her core down . I will only take her in the early morning and evening. She will have to learn to stay indoors when it is too hot or humid,l and I know that will kill her as she wants to be out all the time in the summer. God Bless Us All and all our babies.

[Boriss McCall]

Yay!! good news is always great to hear. ;)

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene;
Per your request I am doing this list of supplements that I give Tipper every day.

I give her 1/2 tsp. of Manuka honey in the morning. She has had some acid reflux in the past and this helps. It is an antibacterial, antinflammatory. I only use the Manuka from New Zealand and there are different strengths that determine bacteria killing power. They go from 1-20. I use 15-18 because anything after that has been processed with heat. I give it to her right of a spoon, she loves it. Do not put on bread and give them as it is so sticky they could choke.

Coconut Oil- about 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp. Start out low, as this can make greasy stool until they get used to it. This is for her heart, fights bacteris and viruses, lowers triglycerides, and is good for overall stress.

Vitamin E only 150 mg per day. If over that it is too much per the Vet. This is for the skin, can reduce arthritis pain, and really helps the immune system especially in cold months.

Fish Oil- For the omega 3 fatty acids, lowers Triglycerides, and helps the immune system. My Vet said only twice a week for this.It also promotes weight loss in dogs.

Renal Essentials From Vetri Science- Very important with these dogs because of all the drinking and urinary tract infections. It supports the immune system function, helps with detoxification.Use as directed on the bottle. I have checked this lab out thoroughly, and they put out top notch products. I smash this up and put in her food.

Hepato Support. It is milk thistle and helps support the liver and its functions.

Cardio Strength from Vetri Science. These dogs all get muscle wasting, and the heart is a muscle. I know first hand as Tippers heart was affected by this. It supports the cardiovascular system, and its circulation. It contains CoQ10. My Vet had a dog that was so ill from heart problems and congestive heart failure and the owner used this. The dog is still alive 2 years later.Use as directed. I won't lie, this is a larger capsule, and hard to give. You have to find the right delivery system, I use a piece of chicken, and sometimes it takes several tries to get it in.

Glycoflex. I use this because of Tippers trachea problem. I know there are a few people on here who have dogs with trachea problems. Well Tipper never had one until this Cushings started. It made fat around her trachea pressing on it making it hard for her to breathe. This rebuilds cartlidge, which is why the trachea collapses, from the cartlidge rings being weak in the windpipe. After she got this I noticed she was trying to sneeze and couldn't. This is called inverted sneezing and goes along with tracheal disease. I have noticed that Tipper is now able to sneeze, so something is working!! I smash this up in her food.

I use Slippery Elm Bark in Tipper's food each time she eats, it has really cut down on any stomach distress she has had, by lining her stomach and intestinal walls, it is great.

I also give Tipper missing link it is very supplement for what all is lacking in their diet. Use as directed and keep refrigerated after opening as it lasts longer that way.

I know this seems like a lot, but when you are talking about the big picture of your dogs life, it is worth it. It is sure working for Tipper by supporting her organs. It is a lot easier to be proactive, than wait until a problem starts and try to back peddle and fix it. I believe in supplements because they have helped me with my Lupus. You need to buy good quality supplements- go to Amazon or somewhere to buy them cheaper.

Lastly I have purchased Vetri Science Repel. They are all natural cloths to rub your dog down with for fleas. I will no longer put flea meds on Tipper because of the immune system problems from this disease. Since they are all natural the dog cannot be harmed by licking them.

Please take away from this what you think will benefit your baby, as I have thoroughly researched each and every one of these products. I have also checked with the Vets, and these products have no long term side effects known.

If this helps just one person manage their babies care I will be happy, so good luck to you all. God Bless Us All, and our Babies

[Squirt's Mom]

Great info! Thanks for sharing that with us!

[scoora]

When Scoop was 6 1/2 YO he had 2 mast cell tumors removed. Right around that time he had gotten his vaccines. Shortly after his tumors were removed he saw an oncologist. She recommended that he not get any more vaccines. So Scoop hasn't had any shots since then but he wouldn't really go too many places anyway. I was a little worried about not getting the rabies shot because it is a law but I still didn't do it.

[scoora]

Where do you get the Renal Essentials from Vetri Science? I just found out Scoop has protein in his urine. Do you think something like Renal Essentials would be good for that?

[Squirt's Mom]

Here ya go, Vicki -

http://www.vetriscience.com/index.php

[goldengirl88]

Vicki:
I got the Renal Essentials from Amazon. The products from here all have good expirations dates and I get them quickly. You can call Vetri Science and ask them about the protein in the urine, and they will be glad to help you. Good Luck and God Bless.

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
I forgot when I listed the supplements I give Tipper to mention I use a vaporizer every night with her. I also let her smell Eucalyptus Radiata on a kleenex. It is very good for breathing problems, some use it internally which I would never do. It does help open up the nasal passages. My Vet said it is safe to put some on her, but if Tipper got a foreign smell on her she would go bonkers trying to get rid of it. I have seen a big improvement in Tippers snoring by using the vaporizer. I have a parrot who cannot smell Eucalyptus or I would have put it in the vaporizer.

[scoora]

Thank you.

[molly muffin]

Thanks for putting together the list of supplements that you are using with Tipper. I think that it will help others who are looking for supportive supplements in addition to treating for cushings or even something else. Not everyone who reads the forum is comfortable with being an active posting member, they just want to find out as much information as they can. Some do go ahead and become active members, but that doesn't matter as much as having information available to anyone to help them with their furbabies.
I think the numbers are looking pretty good and Tipper is obviously feeling pretty good too. :)
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Thanks for the info on Tipper's numbers. I am cautiously optimistic at this point. I pray to God she continues to do well. I have never prayed so much before in my life. I am totally into posting to help others, as that is how I got my information from others helping me. God Bless All of Us and our wonderful furbabies.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I wanted to post this information in case anyone has had any experience with this. I have been noticing Tipper's back, so much muscle is gone. She has an area that has become convex on her spine. She looks sway backed sort of, for lack of better terminology. I have heard others mention this. I discussed it with my Vet- wondering if I could put something light weight over her to hold up her belly. I am assuming this pot belly is pulling on her back since there are no muscles left to hold her up. I thought maybe that is why she keeps moving around at night to get comfortable. He said putting anything on her to support her abdominal area would only weaken what muscle she has left as it would not work to hold her up because it was being supported by something else. So I asked him about the cold laser therapy. He recommended me to a therapist licensed in this. It is about 40 miles away and I would have to go 2x a week for 3 weeks. I talked in depth to the therapist about Tipper's situation, to see if she could help her. She is not one for just wanting to take you for your money, so I was glad of that. She told me that we would know after 5 treatments if it is helping. I also told her about the muscle contractions in her rear legs. She said she would work on them also. I am scheduled to start her on March 4th. It is a 20 minute session. If anyone has tried this and had success or not please let me know before I take her. I am trying to solve her issues of constantly moving around the bed at night, so she can get better rest. Her cortisol is definetly under control so it is not that at 3.5. Any feed back would be appreciated. Thank you in advance, and God Bless us all, and all our babies.

[addy]

Julie used it on Hannah's back problems and thought it was beneficial to Hannah. I'll go look for her thread for you and be back.

I also noticed you asked about eyes on Scoop's thread. Zoe has quite a few things wrong with her eyes, one problem is assumed to be related to her Cushings and that is crystalline keratopathy which is basically mineral like deposits on her cornea. She is also developing cataracts and has corneal degneration along with her dry eye disease. She developed an eye ulcer last spring and it did not resolve so we took her to see an opthamologist. Yikes, we were not prepared for the list of problems with her eyes. :( Funny thing is, she never had any eye ulcers or eye problems until I lowered her cortisol. I still dont quite understand that and I guess I never will.

I'll be back with Julie's thread

[addy]

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3134&page=30

ask Julie about it, she'll be glad to help you.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Last night I was restless and got little sleep. A thought crossed my mind I wanted to run past everyone. Who on here has the longest surviving baby with Cushings? I just wondered if that person would give us some advice that may help the longevity of our babies??? Any type of different things they tried or had luck with. Just a thought.... thanks.

[frijole]

I don't hold the record but my Haley lived to be 16 1/2 and died of old age not cushing's. She was on lysodren for over 4 yrs. I did absolutely nothing special for her except give her lysodren and regular acth tests to make sure she was maintaining the load.

I gave her quality food (Solid Gold) and as her arthritis set in I gave her adequan shots, fish oil and glucosamine chond. with SAME. That and lots of love. Oh and I ceased giving her people food as she couldn't tolerate any fats - not even a tiny piece of white chicken breast. Kim

[goldengirl88]

Thank you for the help, every bit of information helps when you are dealing with this dreaded disease. God Bless

[Mel-Tia]

Hope and and Tipper are having a good day today

Mel and Tia xxx

[Squirt's Mom]

I first heard the word "Cushing's" late in 2007 and Squirt was officially diagnosed in early '08 at the age of 10. But her journey isn't typical. A tumor on her spleen was the cause of the elevations in cortisol at that time and when it was removed that level returned to normal. So she started out Atypical and started moving into true Cushing's with elevating cortisol summer before last. She never loaded (we use Lysodren) because of the Atypical so has only been on maintenance the last year or so. She was 15 yesterday so she has been on this journey for five years.

I chose Lysodren over Trilostane (Vetoryl) almost 2 years ago and am very happy with that decision. She has been taking flax lignans or spruce lignans along with melatonin since '08. She takes GlycoFlex III, Only Natural Pet's salmon oil, PS-100, and has been on a home-cooked diet for over four years. She has taken or is taking milk thistle seed, astragalus, burdock root, schisandra, chamomile, and passionflower herbs as needed in both seed or powder and tincture forms.

She started leaking at nite this year and is on Proin.

Her arthritis has gotten bad and for now she is using either Vetprofen or a vet med called Meta-Tinic (Metacam based) - both NSAIDS. :( I am working on an herbal protocol for her now and looking into Adequan and Dasuquin.

I think that's all. :D

Hope that helps! But remember, what works for Squirt may not work for a single other dog - each are unique biological entities. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
When you get time would you let me know what you put in your natural diet, I would appreciate it and thank you for the help. God Bless You and your baby.

[Squirt's Mom]

Squirt's diets are designed by a nutritional consultant. I have been taking a course in canine nutrition for two years and don't know enough to put on the head of a straight pin! So there is no way I would try to design a diet for my babies right now. ;) I can throw something together for the short term, VERY short term, but over the long-term, I trust the experts. I can share the ingredients but that isn't the key - the balance of nutrients is the key and that requires the right foods, supplements, vitamins and minerals for each individual dog.

She just started on a new diet this week but the old one that she was on for four years contained white turkey, beef liver, water packed sardines, brown rice, sweet potatoes, lentils, green beans, butternut or acorn squash, organic yogurt, calcium, taurine, zinc, manganese and iodine. Her new diet is dark chicken, sweet potatoes, white rice, salmon, beef liver, calcium, taurine, zinc and manganese. Once she adjusts to the change and I see it is not going to upset the digestive system, I will add the yogurt back in as a topper.

Catherine Lane designed all my babies' diets but she is sooo busy right now working on her thesis I'm never sure when she is taking new clients or not. Monica Segal is the other consultant I would recommend. I would beg you to please not get a diet off of the web to use. It is important for home made diets to be geared to the individual - especially when the pups are less than 100% healthy. ;) An imbalance is so very easy to create in a healthy dog much less a dog with existing health issues.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

BTW - I eat peanut butter, cheese, crackers, cereal and sandwiches for the most part! Guess who rules THIS house? :D

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I took Tipper to the Opthamologist yesterday. It was a 7 hour ordeal. Even though Tipper has a car seat to sleep in she was so uncomfortable the whole time. I think the thin skin, changes in fat redistribution, and her pot belly made her miserable. She had an idea from the get go that she was going to the Dr. She would not drink for me even though I made several stops for her to drink and go potty, and eat. She was being stubborn. So luckily I had a syringe in my purse and made her drink with it. I could tell her mouth was sticky and dry when she stuck her tongue out, I could hear the sticky sound in her mouth. When we got to the Dr.'s office I went in and brought the paper work out and filled it in outside in the car. I asked if I could keep her in the car and they call me on the cell when the Dr. was ready for her, since she has had enough already. So we waited in the car and she sat patiently, until a woman pulled in beside us with a poodle and took it in the building. Tipper looked at the poodle and then gave me the nastiest look, and crouched down in her car seat and hid her head. Her worst fears were now confirmed. I believe if she could talk she would have called me a nasty word!! So here is all the info if this will help anyone now or in the future:

First of all the Dr. said eye fluid is important with a Cush dog as the Cushings dries up their eyes and they get dry eye which blurrs vision- I know I have it. Her fluid was great
Second he checked her pressure for glaucoma. It was fine also.

Then he dialated her eyes and really did a thorough exam. She has sclerosis of both eyes. Which means she needs bifocals the cause is from getting old.

Her iris muscle is not completely closing either, this is from old age also.

She does have very small calcium deposts on her retina. He said this is either the Cushings or old age.
He asked me why I wanted her seen and anything that had prompted me to get her eyes checked. I told him when I asked my Vet about changes I was seeing in her eyes he told me it was old age. Due to her disease I said that was not a good enough answer for me. He told me I did the right thing, as once you let something go, it is hard to back track. So I guess the Vet I have was wrong again. He emailed my Vet a report of what was going on. I guess I'll hear about this for going behind hind his back, and getting a specialist without his knowledge. Oh well!!! He also said he has drops that get rid of the deposits, but that since hers were so tiny he wants to wait 6 months and recheck her to see if there are changes in them. He said since she has had so much Vet crap with the Cushings, she would be upset with the drops as they sting real bad. He did not want to put her thru this if it was not necessary. He also told me with the sclerosis and iris not closing all the way that her depth perception may start to be off. He said his elderly beagle has this when he puts a treat down for him, when he goes to get it he is about an inch away and the dog thinks he is right on it. Also he said if you notice them looking and drinking in a funny manner that they cannot tell exactly where surface of the water in the bowl is. So if any of your dogs do this you will know what is happening. I hope this information helps someone. They also have an animal dermatologist, and a cancer center for animals in this huge complex. I had this eye Dr. 30 years ago for a cat of mine that has since passed. This practice has grown immensely in that time. I hope this can help one person to understand the changes their dog may go thru. God Bless Us All and All our Babies.

[addy]

I am so glad that inspite of the trauma of the trip, the exam went well and the report was good. I am sure you feel better as well.

If he was talking about EDTA, Zoe has that drop; we are not sure if it is holding things at bay but it is not breaking up the deposits. We are hoping it is keeping them from getting worse. She has a recheck the end of March with the eye vet.

I hope you and Tipper have recovered. Enjoy your Sunday:)

[Mel-Tia]

Hi Tippers Mom

Glad that you got some answers on this trip, sorry Tipper figured it out so you had an interesting journey, our pups are so clever, wish they could understand we are doing it for them!

Tia could give looks too am sure she said a few choice words to me over the years :)

Interesting to read about the scierosis that might explain why Tia's was reluctant to drink from her bowl....

Thank you for the information. Hope you are both having a good day today

Mel and Tia xxx