Tipper - adrenal tumor/breathing issues

[addy]

Hi Barbara,
Just a quick question, I thought you were doing part Vetoryl and part compounded. Could you remind me what Trixie’s dose is currently? Thanks for your help. I am just contemplating Zoe’s dose.

[Trixie]

Hi Addy...yes...doing 28mg a day for Trixie divided into 14mg am/pm. I use 10mg Vetoryl and 4 mg trilo.
I'll post this on your thread..not sure you meant it to be here on Pattis.
Barbara

[Trixie]

Hi Patti,
I don't know about headaches but I do think dogs definitely react to the change in air pressure. I know Trixie usually hides when she hears the wind blowing...even without rain! Maybe she equates strong wind noises with thunder? I don't know but maybe Tipper was reacting to the wind and the other weather noises you had last night. I also have seen Trixie sniffing the air when the wind blows...she's sometimes on the couch and puts her nose up straight and sniffs.

I have been really afraid to try the fish oil. Trixie's gastro system has been so good lately, (knock wood)...I'm so afraid to mess with it by adding something new. She has a sensitive system so I don't want to start up any diarrhea or vomiting episodes right now, that's why I havn't given it a try yet.

The day she went in to have her acth and blood test she was not fasted. Not only did she have treats on the morning walk at 8am and her breakfast at 10am then I gave her three dog treats at 2pm that they have on the desk at the vet right before she went in. I didn't realize it could screw things up so much.
So...she ate those 3 biscuits, (and they weren't small) and went in to have the blood drawn probably within 15-20 minutes of eating them. I don't believe they were "fatty" treats but I read that it can definitely change the results. The article said that eating before the test can raise Triglycerides up to 20% more than fasting levels. She should be fasted at least 12 hours before testing...since it was also an acth she had eaten (and eaten plenty).
I'm sure her triglycerides are not super low but maybe that really high number would not have been quite so bad had she not just eaten 3 treats plus the earlier meal.
I want to do another test and next time a fasted test to recheck her triglycerides and also her liver numbers. She's back on Denamarin again so after a month we will retest the blood to see both the Triglycerides and liver numbers.
Trixie seems so good but those liver numbers have me worrying.

Barbara

[addy]

aww Patti, sorry I posted to Barbara on your thread in error:o

[goldengirl88]

Barbara:
I usually get a blood panel on Tipper every time she goes for an ACTH as it is easier on her when they are doing the testing. She always eats before her test too so I have very little blood work while she is fasted. I am going to get one though in a month I want to see her Reticulocyte count. I know what you mean about messing with the gastro system. I know I had heard other members on here talk about their dogs licking air, I wonder if the smelling is associated with that?? Just seems odd she has never done this before, but then again with this disease there are so many weird things it is enough to make you crazy sometimes. I told Tipper yesterday that I have to get a secretary to keep all her appointments etc! How is the work coming over at your mom's house? Hope Trixie is liking the cold weather. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

Hey Patti,
Trixie loves the cold weather! Of course ever since Cushings so do I!! That heat made everything so much worse for Trixie, and I know you feel the same goes for Tipper.
Things out at the house are moving along but not so fast...I am chipping away at all the stuff. I can't be there everyday, if I could it would go a lot faster. We did get 25 big bags of donations packed for the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization. Gosh, my parents just had so many clothes and we never cleaned out my dad's stuff while my mother was alive.
Luckily they will pick up from the house and they keep 40% of the donations right in the local area (Long Island) and the rest they send to areas that don't get stuff as often. Many of the charities who request clothing donations take the clothes to be ground up and used for cheap furniture filling and carpet pads. I only gave very nice clothes in good condition and shoes..many brand new and barely worn. My parents both had a very fine wardrobe. Of course our family and some friends went thru and took things-then I neatly packed up all the good stuff for donating. We wanted it to go to people who need decent clothing, not ground up into rag filler.
Now onto furniture, rugs etc....we have a few local resale people coming in to possibly buy some stuff so we'll see how that goes.
It's all very hard for a sentimental person like me...I have to work fast when I'm there or else I start to think too much and then I get upset.
My mother was a saver, she was neat but boy she saved a lot of stuff!!...I even found a bill for the Vet from 1975!! The schnauzer I had growing up had bladder stones so was at the vet a lot...can you believe??-an office visit, x-rays, allergy tests, vaccination, and medications...grand total was $125. I'm sure my mother thought it was a lot of money back then but how I wish we had 1975 pricing now!!
I'm afraid Trixie has never had a fasted blood test except for the LDDS we did back in March. I am hoping things will look better on that fasted test when we do it...being optimistic here, hope I'm not fooling myself!

Barbara

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Today was blood pressure day, and Toby had to get Tipper riled up before we left so she was 140 today which is not high but high compared to what she has been. She gained weight from me taking the lentils away, and having to give more dog food in its' place. I have to get that taken care of. Leslie I emailed Cat the Nutritionist a few days ago and have heard nothing back yet, I am sure she is very busy so I am waiting. Barbara I am glad you are getting things moving at your mom's before the real bad weather sets in. You have accomplished a lot so far. My rescue cat Lucky suddenly took ill the day Monday. it probably is not his sludging as that starts over time. This was just right away on Monday he got sick and he never acts like this. I do not need another vet bill!!! I am waiting to see if this is just a fluke thing as sometimes cats do this or if it is something to go to the vet about. I checked him all nite and have not slept. Tipper got up at 500am and I am dead. She is still acting hungry and I do not know now if it is the lentils or her trilo dose is not high enough. I feel bad today all this stress is catching up with me. I have not even gotten my meds yet for my kidney stone, I am too busy with the babies. I will get on it today. Lucky is not eating so I have to see I may have to syringe food into him. If it comes up he may have a blockage. It is hard with 2 cats telling who went to the bathroom and who didn't. Tipper has laser therapy tomorrow and Monday the eye Dr. in Pittsburgh. I could use some help right about now. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Patti - Please take care of yourself and get your Meds that's an order lady. I know how this feels to be that busy with the furbabies and forgetting yourself as my body crashed last week cause I forgot my own meds so please take care of yourself. Poor Tipper acting all hungry Woody is doing the same at the moment, but I,m managing to ignore him so far. Good luck for tomorrow and Tippers laser appointment I do so hope you get the results you need from the eye doctor as well. Your plate is really full but please take time for yourself as you will be no use to the babies otherwise. :)

[goldengirl88]

Tracy:
I know it is easy to get all wound up with the babies. I am going to take this afternoon and get my meds etc. taken care of. Now with the cat sick, I really am bombarded! Thank you for caring I appreciate it. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

Patti...you must get your medications and take care of yourself too!! I am so sorry about Lucky! I do hope the kitty is okay and like you said..just a fluke.
I always found Trixie to have a bigger appetite in the cold weather...this was even before Cushings. Is there a substitute for lentils...something with protein and fiber that Tipper can have? How about oatmeal or some brown rice? I give Trixie brown rice when we have it, and oatmeal is good for dogs and a small serving may keep Tipper filled longer.
I'm not big on changing and adding things to the diet, but maybe something like lentils will help the appetite issue. Trixie is always hungry...before Cushings and now with it. She's always ready to eat.

Barbara

[Budsters Mom]

If you don't take care of yourself, you won't be around to care for your zoo. So, you must just do it. Do it for them! xxxxx

[Dianaww]

Patti PLEASE look after yourself too, I know how it is, I am very ill as you know and I put Teddy first, and often think, Hang on, I must take care of myself, to be here for him.

So please please do look after yourself too. Love Diana x

[goldengirl88]

Diana:
I am trying to, this is really hard with the kitty sick now. I have 2 appointments with Tipper and myself tomorrow and if the cat is no better he may have to go to the vets. HE gets stressed out so much form there and I was trying to prevent that. You take care and rest yourself and I pray for good results in January. I am sorry your test was bad, I hate when that happens. Cuddle up with Teddy and give him some kisses from Tipper and I. Your hubby is a real keeper. God Bless you all.
Patti

[molly muffin]

hi patti, I second what the others are all saying. You Have to take care of yourself too, so you can take care of the babies. :)

I know you are juggling a million things and crisis's at the moment, but remember, you are too are one of those things on the list to take care of and I hope you move yourself to the top of that list. You can say Tipper comes first, or one of the others but it is NOT true. They are all dependent on you and just you, therefore, you are 1 and then come the rest. This is not about sacrificing for them or not being as "immediate" of a need, this is about being smart and you are Very smart. They need you to be able to care for them and I know you know that but you are just forgetting how important you really are. :) Stop it! :)
See we love you :)
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Dianaww]

Hi Patti yes I have seen that on your post, I have also commented on your post about you looking after yourself too, I know how hard it is when you put your babies first, but you need to get your meds so you can care for them too. They would ask you to, I am sure if they could talk they would say " Mummy please get your meds" wouldn't they? They love you Patti.

I hope Tipper will be OK for her tests, My hubby is a dear, but I have had to kiss a few frogs first you know, and my life has been very hard, Hence all my illnesses now, it is an after effect of the stress and trauma I have had over my 50 years, but now I don't complain much.

God Bless you too Patti, and PLEASE look after you too.

X

[spdd]

Gosh Patti... you make me tired just thinking about all you do for your babies. It's easier said then done, but you know you have to look after yourself too. Like it was mentioned, without you... they won't make it, so you have to take some time to make sure you are well. Please!!! even for my sake, make sure you are looking after yourself.

[Boriss McCall]

HI Patti..
sorry things are going hectic for you. Hope you are squeezing in some naps. You deserve some!

[Mel-Tia]

Hello you

Just wondering how you all are since there isn't an update for today? Hope lucky is feeling better and that you managed to get your meds!

Big hugs and kisses to all the fur babies

Mel
Xxxxx

[goldengirl88]

Hi Mel:
So great to hear from you. I have been wondering how you and Boyce are doing. Unfortunately Lucky is still sick and I have an appointment tomorrow for him. I surely don't need this as Tipper is bankrupting me now. Has works slowed down any? Hope you are taking time for yourself. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Tipper slept well last nite, but some trachea noises. This dog is so darn smart it kills me. She has started putting her feet underneath me when she sleeps so her legs don't shake from the tremors. She also turns and puts them under the pillow to try and stop it. These dogs are amazing. She is a problem solver like her mom! Lucky is a little better this morning. I have kept a steady stream of food in him with a syringe and baby food. I always have it on hand for this reason. I cancelled his vet appt. because my vet is out of town until after Thanksgiving and he is the only one who can draw blood from Lucky, as Lucky gets spastic at the vets. I discussed with them that I will take Lucky to the other practice that has an Xray machine should he turn around and get worse. They thought this was best knowing how Lucky gets, that the stress form the visit can make him even sicker. During all of this I neglected to order chicken for Tipper so I have to run over there today and take care of it. if she runs out I will give her salmon instead. It is dreary here and sprinkling off and on all nite. We are to get lots of snow this weekend, so that will make my Tipper happy, and anything that makes her tail wag at this stage is wonderful. She was really nervous waiting in the waiting room at her laser therapy yesterday. She trembled so much she almost fell off my lap. She knows they do not hurt her, she has just had it with all this already. I hate to take her Monday to the eye DR. but that is so necessary she must go. She will get a break then until January and only go to laser and blood pressure screening. I will hold off on any ACTH or blood work to check the reticulocytes until Jabnuary she needs a mush deserved break from all this before she becomes neurotic. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

I have not yet found anything from Dr. P about twice day dosing being the better alternative for adrenal tumors though we know that it may be hard to control their cortisol so that could lead to twice day dosing. Zoe has always struggled with her evening dose.



Pros and cons of Lysodren vs Vetoryl
So which drug to use—mitotane or trilostane? If the dog has PDH, she should respond clinically to either drug (1,4-6), but if an expanding pituitary tumor is present, that might lead to neurological signs within a few months (3,7). If the dog has an adrenal tumor, the standard doses of mitotane would be unlikely to help, but this failure to control the cortisol levels would help "suggest" that an adrenal tumor is the underlying cause (1,8,9).Use of standard doses of trilostane, on the other hand, is more effective in lowering cortisol values in dogs with adrenal tumors so this may be the way to go if the client refuses any additional workup (6,10). However, if adrenal carcinoma is present, this drug would do nothing to stop tumor invasion or metastasis. And again, if the dog has non-suppressible PDH with a pituitary macrotumor, this might lead to neurological signs within a few months.I
have a patient with an adrenal tumor. If I give VetorylR prior to surgery, will the mass
get smaller?
No. VetorylR has not cytotoxic effects on adrenal tumors. It will not shrink the mass or prevent metastatic spread. However, VetorylR does effectively control the clinical signs of HAC in these patients, and is licensed for use in dogs with adrenal tumors. Surgery is the optimal approach in these cases, but Vetoryl should be considered if the mass is inoperable or if other factors make surgery a poor choice

[spdd]

Hi Patti.... isn't Tipper just the real smart one. I'll have to remember what she does in case when I get older I get tremors. It's actually quite cute to imagine.

It's dull and dreary here, and we are expecting snow this weekend as well, think it's coming here from your area.

Have a great weekend and glad to hear Lucky is feeling a bit better.

Have a great weekend.

Hugs from me and "mah boy"

[doxiesrock912]

Wow! That is so cool that Tipper is finding a way to handle the tremors. She is so smart!
I hope that Lucky gets better!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
It was literally a hair raising morning. I took Tipper out and put her behind the gate in the living room as I always do. The only problem when I went to walk away I heard hissing and screeching, here Lucky the cat that is sick decided for some reason to go into Tipper's space. He never does this as he knows Tipper does not like him. She was on him before I could blink, I quickly opened that gate and got her off him. He was so petrified at her he could not even think to jump the gate and get away. She had a mouthful of his hair and there were balls of it all over the floor. Poor Lucky and he is already sick on top of this. I checked Tipper's face and eyes then ran and got Lucky and checked him all over. She is still so powerful, you don't mess with Tipper. I know Lucky will never do that again ever. I am thankful neither one is hurt. Tipper slept well and walked already it is very cold but above 32 so she can go slowly. I am in the middle of filling out paper work for the nutritionist to help Tipper. It was so long and so detailed I thought I was going to have to name my kindergarten teacher. My God it took me 3 hours to complete, but I am thankful she is so thorough. I need to get this pound off Tipper and get her onto a healthy diet that benefits her body to help fight off this disease. I am wanting her to not be begging for food anymore as it breaks my heart to see her like this. I have asked the nutritionist to give me a recipe utilizing the chicken I already have for her as it was so costly. My vet is gone for about 10 days so I cannot have Lucky seen until he comes back for blood work, unless it is an emergency. Lucky seemed much better and eating on his own until the incident with Tipper. I keep checking on him periodically. These critters are going to give me heart attack yet. At 3 o'clock in the morning the ice maker was making a terrible noise. It was clogged up and could not drop the ice. I had to get up and empty the_____ thing and have been up ever since. I hope I sleep tonite as Tipper and I will be up really early to go to Pittsburgh Monday morning in case of bad weather. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Oh my goodness. Not good for Tipper or Lucky or you to have a mix up.

Molly simply cannot leave a cat alone, unless she is at the vets office, then none of them seem to bother her a bit, but in the house, she thinks they are her playmates and bugs them continuously. It scared me to death as I was always afraid a claw would catch an eye. As it was I use to have to go get Nova's claws unstuck from Molly's beard, they would both be putting up a ruckus that they were dying. Nova never did put a scratch on Molly, but the worry was always there. We never got another cat after Nova passed.

You certain did have an early morning and an eventful one, so I hope that you can all catch a few winks and get some rest today.

We had a very brief few minutes of snow coming down hard and then it stopped, never did stick and it's sunny and cold out. We might have a few more of those during the day, who knows.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
We are having a white out and the ground is covered. Looks like a scene from a snow globe. We have about an inch so far, it is coming down hard and the wind is still 50mph. It is like a snowstorm out there that you sit inside in the warmth and enjoy. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

A snowstorm, oh goodness, I hope you get to stay inside.

Oh these kitties and puppies, thank goodness everyone is ok.:):)

Patti- Marianne posted links to articles on SID verses BID on my thread.

[doxiesrock912]

Oh no! Animals fighting scares me! I'm glad that neither was injured.
We had flurries, not enough to stick to the ground.

Cos Cob is under gale warning and our lights have ticketed several times tonight. The pets are in Bristol with grandpa. He got flurries too.

More snow tomorrow. Not ready for this weather!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Tipper had a good nite, but we are in the single digits outside so there will be no doggies walking this morning. Tipper is already showing me she is bored. The wind here has not let up since it started yesterday. I am taking a rest today as we have to get up at 5:00am to go to Pittsburgh to the eye Dr. I hope the roads are not bad, I hate traveling that early when there is ice and snow. It just does not have a chance to melt from the cars traveling on it too early in the morning. I brought Tipper's pillows she lays on in the house so they are toasty for her to lay on. She will have to eat her breakfast in the car, and I will have to give her the Vetoryl while traveling, that is always fun!! I try to pull off somewhere and do it, but if there isn't anywhere I will have to just do it while driving. I usually have it ready and can stuff it in the chicken while holding the wheel. Not the perfect way to go, but you do what you have to. I am praying my Steelers beat the Brown today as they have been playing like dummies all season, and Pittsburgher's are not used to seeing this from them. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

I am so glad Tipper had a good night and please be careful driving tomorrow. We are to get a dusting of snow tomorrow too. I worry about Zoe walking on icy stuff.

I'm glad Tipper can still handle car rides, Zoe is impossible- about like Leslie's Squirt. She used to love to ride shot gun on my lap, not any more.

Enjoy the football game. I am trying to give our dining room a good fall cleaning before Thanksgiving. It is the one room I dont allow the dogs access to unless we are in there and I dont really clean it thoroughly, I have to cheat somewhere to find time for everything else:o:o:o:o

Enjoy your Sunday

[lulusmom]

I have not yet found anything from Dr. P about twice day dosing being the better alternative for adrenal tumors though we know that it may be hard to control their cortisol so that could lead to twice day dosing. Zoe has always struggled with her evening dose.

I

Dr. Peterson discusses UC Davis' study on twice daily dosing and comments on SID, BID and TID dosing on his blog. I have provided an excerpt from that blog as well as the URL to his site below:


SID, BID, or TID administration?
Whether to start with once- or twice-daily trilostane administration is controversial (1,2). Although most dogs are controlled clinically with once-daily dosing, trilostane may begin to lose its effectiveness 8-10 hours after administration, so twice daily dosing may be necessary in a subset of dogs (1,4).

In addition, it is very possible that the efficacy of twice-daily dosing might be more effective than once-daily dosing in controlling the complications of Cushing’s syndrome (e.g., proteinuria or hypertension). However, the answer that question remains unclear (15), and additional studies are needed to resolve that issue.

So what do I recommend? Until it is proven that SID or BID treatment is better, I prefer to start with a twice-daily regimen —if feasible and the owner agrees —because controlling cortisol concentrations throughout as much of the day as possible makes sense to me. In diabetic dogs with concurrent Cushing’s disease, twice-daily administration is essential in avoiding large fluctuations in serum cortisol concentrations during the day (1,2). With once-daily trilostane administration, adequate diabetic control will be next to impossible in many dogs with concurrent Cushing's syndrome.

What about TID administration? In this study, 9 (24%) of the 38 dogs with PDH were eventually switched to a regime of trilostane, administered every 8 hours. In my practice, I have not found it necessary to use TID dosing, and I do not find that dose schedule very practical or realistic for most owners. If I can't remember to "take a pill" every 8 hours (and I can't!), how can we really expect the owners to give their dog a medication three times a day for the rest of their dog's life?

http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2012/12/low-dose-twice-daily-trilostane.html

[addy]

Thank you Glynda but he does not really say that specifically it is better to do BID for adrenal tumor based Cushings does he? Maybe I am missing something in that article. I was looking for a specific reference to it, which I have not found.

I took that as a general statement on his thoughts but not specifically addressing how BID dosing may affect an adrenal tumor except we know it may be harder to control their cortisol so in that regard, BID would perhaps do a better job with more consistent control throughout the day. I think I posted his blog statement about adrenal tumors on my thread as to why he thought Trilostane would be preferred over mitotane.

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

We know that adrenal tumors are highly resistant to Lysodren which requires much larger doses but to my knowledge that doesn't apply to Trilostane. You are the second or third person who has mentioned larger doses of Trilostane for adrenal tumors and it's possible I've read that but I sure don't remember. The modes of action are completely different and I believe dogs with adrenal tumors are usually prescribed standard doses of Trilostane, just like those with PDH. I would think the same considerations for switching to BID dosing would be the same as those considerations given dogs with PDH. Adrenal tumors have random secretory patterns, independent of the pituitary gland, so they don't constantly dump cortisol like PDH dogs, so the need for BID dosing may actually be less in ADH dogs. It just depends.....

There is only one condition that I'm aware of that BID dosing is usually recommended from the getgo and that is cushdogs with diabetes. Dr. Cook doesn't just recommend it, she states that it is absolutely necessary in order to sustain consistent control of cortisol throughout the day.

Glynda

[Trixie]

Hi Patti,
Oh boy...Tipper and Lucky...that must have really been frightening! I'm so glad neither one was hurt in any way. Poor Lucky, still not 100% feeling well and lost a bit of fur. Tipper means business doesn't she...I guess you're right, don't mess with Tipper!

Hoping you have an easy and safe ride tomorrow. From the forecast I just heard you should be just fine on your drive tomorrow...watch out on Tuesday and Wednesday though..looks like the snow moves East.

Glad Tipper has been having good nights...hope it keeps up!!
I see the Steelers did win the game!!

Barbara

[molly muffin]

Have a safe trip tomorrow. I hope the roads aren't going to be too awful

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[spdd]

Thinking about you and the trip today. Keep safe and let us know when you are back.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
We are back form the dreaded trip. It was really bad around the country roads here this morning as we had snow last nite. It was 12 degrees when we started out. the first hour of driving was in the dark. When we got about 45 minutes out of here there were clear roads. On the way back basically the same thing. So here is the eye report:
Mild iris atrophy, lens sclerosis, stable tear film, no retinal hemorrhages, calcium deposits the same on the right eye, decreased in the left eye.
From all medical reports it is very likely her spleen reaction to the storms caused this hemorrhaging. Advised by client that Reticulocytes will be tested in about a month. No visit needed until April. He said this dog has better vision than he does. So I am very pleased with all that. Now if I can just get over the next 2 hurdles in January I can calm down a bit. I carry Tipper every where I go and never put her on a floor anywhere because of germs and her legs in the back. An older lady had a big grey dog you could see it was old, she held the door for us. Her dog wanted to get close and smell Tipper the Ripper, so she smelled Tipper's foot and Tipper growled and tried to lunge at her and showed her teeth. The old lady said "boy for a little dog she is brave going at this big lug!" We were all laughing. She was so tired of riding in the car and so was I, it is a long trip back and forth. She walked a short walk at home as it is too cold out. I just wanted to get her legs moving after she lay in the car for 5 hours. We were both up a lot last nite. I kept worrying I would sleep in and be late. I don't know if Tipper sensed that or she is not controlled. I am so tired and just going to do what I have to today. I had to run up to the bank after we got home, I saw some unauthorized charges on my debit card, so I had to cancel it and get a new one. My old man neighbor came over and told me his daughter had 3 turkeys given to her, and she does not like turkey so he was going to give me one. I know he wants me to cook it and send some over, I am no dummy to this, but that's ok. It said we are in for really heavy snow and bad weather tomorrow thru the rest of the week. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

The eye report sounds good, Patti and I am so glad you are back home safe and sound.

My 20 minute commute turned in to 45 minutes this morning and we hardly had any snow.:rolleyes:

Stay warm and safe and inside:):):)

[molly muffin]

Glad you had a safe trip there and back. Eye report sounds pretty good.
Now maybe you can relax for a bit. :) Well after you cook turkey for your neighbor that is. :)
He sounds pretty lonely and I bet he is very grateful for all you do for him. What a wonderful person you are Patti.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Woodydog]

WTG Tipper glad to hear all went well today at the appointment. Now maybe you can chill out a little bit Patti. I hope you got your meds and are looking after yourself. :)

[doxiesrock912]

Great news Patti!
The stress causing the eye hemorrhaging made me think of a friend of mine who would vomit so forcefully whenever she got sick that she also broke blood vessels in her eyes. Can you imagine?

I'm so glad that Tipper is doing well!

[Trixie]

Good news about Tipper's eyes. What a trip for you and Tipper..that's a lot of driving..you must be exhausted.
Hope you can stay in out of the snow and relax for the holiday!!

Barbara

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
We have been up since 430am. Tipper slept for 5 hours in the car yesterday so she has enough by 430 and wanted up. She slept right against my back all nite giving me about 6 inches to sleep on and had her feet underneath of me so they don't jump. I got up feeling terrible. My Lupus is kicked in to overdrive, have the rash back, and every joint in my body does not want to go. I have never felt this bad. My hands are even swollen. It was hard for me even walking around this morning. Tipper walked and the whole time I felt like a 90 lb weight on me dragging it around, not sure how I made it. That will be it for the day though. I think the 5 hours of non stop driving did me in. I would never get up and do that for myself, but she must go so I would never think of not taking her. The bad part is I have to go to Pittsburgh December 10th to my Dr. I just can't take long trips in the car anymore. If I would have had time I could stop and get out and walk around, but with traffic you never know so glad I was early. The eye Dr. told me I was right to be concerned about those Reticulocytes. I am glad once I start something I see it thru, or where would my precious baby be? It is a shame, but I don't trust any Dr.'s anymore after this experience. I am eagerly awaiting the recipes from the nutritionist, I need to get Tipper strong again. Yesterday at the hospital, an older couple brought in a husky. His rear legs were shaking so badly he could only walk a few inches at a time, it was heartbreaking and made tears just start down my cheeks. I am putting in request to God that if he ever re does the world over that he will give our companion animals the same life span as us, and that this horrible disease will be gone from the face of the earth. I will be the most grateful person in the world on Thanksgiving because I have the biggest blessing ever and that is my Tipper. I have half of my house left to clean and don't know if I will make it today, looks iffy. Blessings
Patti

[scoora]

Patti, So sorry to hear you are feeing so poorly. Hope you feel better soon.
I love the request you are putting in to God. That surely be wonderful.
Hugs to you and Tipper.

[Woodydog]

Oh so sorry to hear your poorly, 5 hrs straight driving would do me in as well. I hope that you can feel better soon and yes I agree with your prayers that would be wonderful :)

[My sweet Ginger]

Hi Patti, thank you very much for checking in on Ginger when you are not feeling good yourself. I really do hope you will feel better as hours go by today and don't worry too much about cleaning your house when you are not well. Your health comes first so that you can take a better care of your Tipper.
Are you having company over Thanksgiving? Is that why all the cleaning? Just don't push yourself too much, k?
I don't know how you can make such long trips with Tipper only in the car. She must be such a car ride trained dog. I'm afraid to go any long drive with any of my babies by myself, I once almost had an accident on the highway. I still cringe just thinking about it.
You are just one of the kind, Patti. Stay warm and happy cooking.
Song.

[addy]

Oh Patti,

I hope you feel better real soon. A day of rest is in order indeed!!!:)

[doxiesrock912]

Oh no Patti!
Please get some rest. Lupus is nothing to play with as you know.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well I finished the cleaning. It drives me nuts to sit still. I got a hot shower and rubbed some of my joints with Ben Gay. I feel a little better since the hot shower etc. I am resting for the rest of the nite. It is really snowing here, and I have to take Tipper to the vets for blood pressure in the morning. Unless it is really bad when we wake up, she will be there. Tipper has been a naughty girl today, I think she is paying me back for taking her to Pittsburgh yesterday. I have often thought of taking her back to our house there, and letting her run inside her fenced in yard. Of course I would ask the new owners first. I bet she would be thrilled to be in her yard running. I hope the holiday passes quickly as it makes me think of my family, and is quite depressing for me. As long as I have Tipper I am ok though. I think I will bake something tomorrow to keep busy, maybe my grandmothers pumpkin custard pie that I am glad I got the recipe for. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Patti I,m glad your feeling slightly better. I,m so jealous of your snow although I do hate driving in it. We,ve not had any yet just frost and really cold winds.

Take care driving tomorrow if the weather is still bad.:)

[molly muffin]

Patti, do take care of yourself!!

Ugh, more snow eh. So far it has missed us today and they say it is going to hit the other side of the city and maybe on give us a dusting. We'll see in the morning.

Stay warm, get rested!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
More snow overnight and more expected tonite. I do not care as I will not be going anywhere. I am in to stay for a few days. It is beautiful out, but the roads have not been plowed so the dogs cannot walk yet. I must be careful as I have to watch out for Tipper's back legs on the ice. She loves this snow, it makes her very happy. It appears she has a lot more energy since I cut out those lentils. I am hoping her blood work will show substantial improvement from all the changes I have made. Tipper slept until 5:30 so that was not too bad. She is off schedule now though and must wait longer between feedings etc. I am feeling much better today. My hands are still swollen, but the rest is descent. So I am taking it easy today, and just enjoying my babies. I will be corresponding with the nutritionist on December 3rd for all Tipper's meal recipes and supplements. I am excited to get her started and feeling better. I am hopeful this will make an improvement in her health and enable her to fight off this disease. Tipper will be very disgusted if she cannot walk soon as she gets bored easily. The wind has just started to pick up so I have to put their snow suits on when we go walking. They look so cute in them, some of my neighbors have told me that they sit in their kitchens having coffee waiting to see what outfits the dogs will have on. Tipper had to stay warm because of her heart, so I am glad she does not fuss about the clothing or she would not be able to walk. That is one good thing that I put coats etc. on her since she was a pup, so that helps me out now as she is used to it. Hope everyone stays inside and stays warm. If you travel stay safe. Blessings
patti

[Woodydog]

Glad your feeling better. Oh a snow suit now that I must see lol. Woody hates his winter coat but will happily wear his fleece outdoors so that's not so bad.

[goldengirl88]

Tracy:
I will have to snap a picture of the dogs in their snowsuits and post it. Tipper is loving this snow, but wants to rub her ears in it, and got an infection last year by doing that so no more. You mean Woody will show off his PJ's outside? That is too funny to think about. Hope you can upload the fridge tape. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

I do so want to see the pups in their snowsuits, pixes please:D

[doxiesrock912]

I'm so glad that you're feeling better Patti. Can't wait to see the snow suit pictures.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[scoora]

Patti,
I hope you, Tipper and your gang have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
To anyone I missed have a Happy Thanksgiving. It is in the teens here so no walking today for Tipper, so she will be naughty staying in all day. I just wanted to say on this day of thanks that I am most thankful for my Tipper being here with me. Her sweet face is all I need to see to be happy. When I see all the people crowding in the malls shopping their brains out, somehow I can't help but feel they are missing what this holiday is about. Oh well to each his own!. I am also thankful for the wonderful people on here that have helped and encouraged me along through this most difficult journey. So to all of you I say thank you for all you have done for my Tipper and I as it is truly appreciated. I hope for each and every one of us an easier road to travel in the future, and that all of our babies will be with us for many more holidays to come. God Bless You All, and All your Babies.
Patti

[addy]

love flowing right back at you, Patti:):):)

[Squirt's Mom]

Back attcha, sweetie! I will be going to my brother's for lunch and then maybe out to visit with friends later this afternoon. I have made my cranberry sauce and others are bringing their specialty dishes. Typically I also make cream pies, but not this year. I am SO looking forward to something other than sandwiches, Ramen Noodles and beans! :p

[molly muffin]

Happy Thanksgiving Patti!

We are all grateful for you too Patti. It takes all of us, working together to make this community work. Some days are happy, some are sad, some are easy and others down right hard. Through it all though, we have each other to support and care no matter what.

Last night on one of those video shows (of which there seems to be a ton now) there was a video of a jack russle, attacking balloons and making them pop. I jumped up and yelled, that's what Tipper does! hahahaha Then had to explain who Tipper is. I just say dog forum and everyone knows though. LOL It was hilarious to watch.

I hope you have had a relaxing day and enjoyed some much needed rest.

Happy Thanksgiving
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[spdd]

Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving Patti. I am grateful for you being on this forum and the support you give to all of us.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well turkey day is officially over and the babies and I can watch all the shoppers getting into fights over store deals!! Seems counterproductive to me. I gave Toby some of the chicken I stuffed and gave Tipper her regular chicken and she thought she was eating what Toby had, so all was good. My old neighbor fellow came knocking at the door and brought me some ham from his daughter and the turkey. She thanked me for caring for her dad and always watching out for him, and said she was glad to give me something for helping. I told her I didn't do it to get anything, I did it because I wanted to. She said she is glad he has me for a neighbor as she lives 2 hours away. She is staying until Sunday so next week I will make the turkey and make some meals from it for him. I am trying to read the information for Tipper's new diet she will be starting as it is quite detailed and complicated to see at first. It is scary for me to do this, but she needs it so I must get it done. Leslie will help me if I mess up so I am very thankful for her. I never attempted to feed any of my animals home cooked food and it is a rather daunting task to start. I have gone to the nth degree to give Tipper every advantage to fight off this disease that I could, and this is the last thing I need to add to what we are already doing. I feel good nutrition will help her lose some weight, and get healthier. I have pushed myself to the limits to help her and feel this will maybe get her vitality back. I got Toby a new ball, as he just about has his old one ruined, and I looked online for an exact replacement. It came and Toby is not thrilled with it. It could be the smell. So, you guessed it Tipper saw it on the floor grabbed it and is playing with it constantly. She is only doing this to spite Toby you understand, as she has her own private ball and no one better touch it! If Toby even looks at it she will got nuts, and all this when they are separated by a gate! Tipper really had the tremors last nite, across he chest and her whole body moving. When she puts her feet under me to stop her legs form moving it wakes me up when I feel her legs starting to move. Oh well that's ok as long as she is with me I'll put up with anything for her. She is miffed as there is no walking this morning as it is back down in the teens. She is pacing letting me know she is bored and annoyed that I am doing something. Hope everyone that celebrated had a wonderful day yesterday, and leftovers so they don't have to cook today. Blessings
Patti

[Concernedmom]

Hi Patti
Do you mind saying who you used as a nutritionist to get your meal plans for Tipper? I've always wanted to try using one but I don't have anyone local to go to. Did you do it on line? Right now I'm using Freshpet. I think it's a good food and Buddy loves it but I did like the fact that he was on homemade food. He just got picky and didn't want it anymore. Freshpet is expensive and if you have a small dog like I do and can't use the whole roll it goes bad fast. You can freeze it but you don't get the same texture after freezing.

[goldengirl88]

Sure no problem the nutritionist is Cat Lane her website is thepossiblecanine.com. Have you ever made your dogs food before? I think when a dog is seriously ill, they need good nutrition to maintain their current state even. This disease really makes for havoc to their whole bodies. I feel bad for you and dear Buddy and hope you can get him on the mend soon. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Tipper has been restless the last few nite moving about the bed again. I am not convinced that she is being controlled on the current dosing of 20 Vetoryl in the morning and 7 trilo in the evening. I am running out of options here. I am probably going to have to go for another ACTH test here in about 2 week to check these numbers. I either have to raise the trilo to 8mg or give both doses together in the morning all at one time. I may even have to go to 8mg trilo and still give it altogether at one time. It seems that when Tipper was on the 30mg Vetoryl one time a day this was not an issue. She is having hunger issues also. I am not sure if that is due to the diet change or if it is the cortisol creeping up. Not sure where to go with this so I will have to tuff it out until another ACTH. I hate to see her like this though. Maybe I should skip tonites dose and give her both together in the morning??? I need some help on this so if anyone can help please do. I am also getting increasingly nervous about her tremors and the skin quivering on her side, and her side kind of jumping when she sleeps. I have been noticing it also affect her eye area as her eyebrow will move rapidly like twitching. When I call her she wakes up and it immediately stops. I pray to God this is not the work of a pheo. I swear this is just non stop worry on this journey. It is in the teens again today so she will not be walking until it goes above 32 if in fact it does. Another day with a bored Jack Russell on my hands. She will definitely be pulling naughty out of her bag of tricks today! Blessisngs
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

I found all the supplements online and the food items in the local grocery stores with no problems. I hope you find the same is true with your experience. Once you get the actual diet, things will fall into place as you work with it a bit. I'm here if you need me! Don't forget to have FUN with this. ;)

[molly muffin]

I really wanted to have time to go back through the dosage history of Tipper.

What dose was she on when she went to low? and what dose was she on, right before that?

Didn't you go to twice a day because you thought that she wasn't controlling at night? Something to think about is tweaking the morning dose to a tad lower and up the evening dose, keeping it the same dose.

Another thing is to try giving it all in the morning and see if it controls her throughout the day.

I'd think both of those would be options.

Hang in there! You're doing great.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

I think may be trying to even out the doses may be beneficial Patti. I am worried too about Zoe with her 30/10 not holding her cortisol under 5 post, but I wanted her to spend some time with her cortisol going up at night so I could evaluate her symptoms.

It may be you are able to do 30mgs if the dose is split 20/10. Tipper's pre was low not her post if I rememeber correctly. It never is an exact science which makes it so dang hard and expensive:(

[spdd]

Oh Patti... I sure hope Tipper can settle down and you can get the dosage so it works for her.

I read your updates everyday, and on my thread too, even though sometimes I just don't get the chance to post back.

Hope tomorrow you can get out with Tipper and get some exercise and a change of scenery.

[Woodydog]

Hi Pattie just popping in to see how you and Tipper are doing, I hope the weather gets better, there is nothing worse than a bored, naughty Jack Russell I should know lol :)

[scoora]

Patti, Just wanted to say HI and tell you I think of you and Tipper a lot.
Love and hugs to you both.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I didn't have the heart to withhold Tipper's evening dose last nite as she was hungry and I just could not do it. I will try again tonite in an effort to give her all 27mg at once in the morning. That is all I know to do at this point. I got her some more veggies in her food yesterday and that seemed to help a bit. It is very cold again and no walking for right now. I found evidence of a mouse under my kitchen sink. I had to pull everything out and disinfect it and the floor under the sink. Went out in the garage and I am looking to see where they are getting in the house. It is so cold out there I will go back out in the afternoon. Never has a mouse ever. Now I know why my cats are always pawing at that door and sitting there for long periods of time. I really do not need this at this time, but really there is no good time for things like this here as I am too busy with my critters for this stuff. In the event that he happened to get into my drawers I emptied the bread drawer threw all out to the birds and used Clorox in the drawer. I guess with this cold weather everything is trying to get in to the heat and find food. I do not kill anything so I will have to get this solved some other way. Maybe I can sprinkle some used kitty litter in that part of the garage and it will deter them. Ok Leslie it's your turn since I had two problems in a row! Tipper has been making a lot of nasal noises lately so I am going to start up the humidifier tonite for moisture. I made the old man near me some home made applesauce, cole slaw, and cranberries for his Thanksgiving with his daughters family. None of them know how to cook you understand. They called me yesterday and thanked me for the stuff, and said they were fighting over the applesauce, hint hint . I gave them a good amount that I had frozen when the apples were given to me in late summer. They were so happy to get it to take home with them. Gheez it is not hard to make applesauce, don't know what the big deal is? I made chicken soup from my leftover chicken. I am going to play some ball with Tipper she is letting me know she is sick of being in. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

uggg, mice, my brother just had one in his house, every once in a while we will get in in the basement.

I am getting hungry for some of your apple sauce, it sounds like it was a big hit and it is one of my favorite foods.:D:D:D

I hope you can find a happy medium dose for Tipper. I know it is hard to figure it all out.

[Squirt's Mom]

Has Tipper been getting the maintenance doses of the Adequan for her trachea? I soooo wish I could afford to try that for Grace. I hope the humidifier helps and if I knew more to suggest, I would be happy to. I am trying to find ways to help Grace that are within my means but so far nothing. :(

[Squirt's Mom]

OH! Mice! Oil of Peppermint on cotton balls is supposed to keep them away. And for some reason, Bay Leaves and Rosemary have come to mind as well.

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
I just found where the mice got in. A hole around some electrical work, which was done by a man. I hate to say it but a woman would know better than to leave a gaping hole there! I have some drywall compound so I filled the hole and have a fan drying it. Yes I am still getting Tipper the Adequan boosters. She is due for one Wednesday. We are doing them every 3 weeks now. I think maybe he should raise the dose a tad as your Dr. said he gave higher doses. He charges 20.00 a shot for it. I am pretty sure I read and bought Eucalyptus Radiata that is supposed to be good for these issues. My vet said it can be given orally or rub some under the neck area. It does have an odor to it though. I used to put some on a Kleenex and when Tipper was sleeping I would put the Kleenex under her nose as it is good to smell it. I read to use it in a vaporizer will really help, but because of Elvis I could not use anything in that goes in the air. There was a Dr. online that swears by this stuff and uses it for this. Yep just found it. The bottle is almost full I just dropped a few drops onto Kleenex. I can mail it to you if you want to try it?? It is the organic kind. I can put it in a small mail pack?? Let me know. Blessings
Patti

[spdd]

Hi Patti... a professional pest control guy told me to fill any cracks with steel wool. Mice hate steel wool, it works believe me. I've gone so far as to put steel wool along the edge of my garage door. I had a mouse a couple of years ago... that was the very first panic attack I ever had. What a production, and yup I literally stood on the couch as this thing followed me downstairs. Too much.

It's a dull wet cold day here, so no walks for Keesh either. Hope you and the furlets are doing well.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I decided that before I switch Tipper to morning only dosing I will call Dechra and review everything with them. I always use a safety net for my girl and this is no exception. Even though she has had 30mg in the past in one dose, and we are at 27mg I am going to run it by Dechra. Last nite Tipper was restless again, and very hungry yesterday so I have to do something today. Tomorrow I will get her meal plan from the nutritionist, and will have to find all the stuff to make her meals. Yesterday I cut myself really bad on 2 fingers with a very sharp knife. I managed to get it to stop bleeding with pressure, and got it wrapped up real well. This morning it is quite sore, but that's what happens when you stop paying attention to what you are doing for a few seconds. I will let everyone know what Dechra says. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

Sounds like a good plan.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I know a lot of us pay things forward on here so I wanted to ask if you would take the time to help a poor abused kitty named Karma have her eye removed. I saw this yesterday, and when I saw her condition it killed me to see an animal like this. They are fundraising to get 500.00 for her operation. They are 85% of the way there. I made a donation from Tipper. If you want to make one that is great, if not please post it somewhere so that others will help this poor baby. Please go to giveforward.com and put Karma in the search box that is the Kitties name, that was saved by this college student who cannot afford the operation. Please enlarge and look at what this cat has lived thru, you will never forget it. Thank You all for your time. Blessings
Patti

[spdd]

Patti, I'd love to donate but I've got a huge vet bill coming up the beginning of the year. Keesh has got to get dental work done, and I'm looking at another $1800.00 bill at least. It's a great cause though, hopefully they are successful.

[goldengirl88]

If you can't donate I totally get it, but please try to post it somewhere to help get exposure, which is what is really needed. I know all the bills us cush parents have, so please just help get the word out. Thank You
Patti

[Trixie]

Hi Patti,
Is there a site where they are collecting for this cat?? Whoops...I see it now on your post. I have to wonder about my reading comp skills lately. Can't donate much but I will sure give something to a cat named KARMA!!

Barbara

[goldengirl88]

Barbara:
Please look at the picture and tell me if you have ever seen anything so terrible???

[Trixie]

Yes...I saw it Patti. Terrible...so sad. I swear it actually hurts my heart when I see animals in distress...I feel the pangs. After my measly donation I see they are only $60 short...I may go back on and give more, I just feel so badly about that cat!

Barbara

[molly muffin]

Yikes Patti with the knife!! No looking away if you have a knife in your hand! That's the rules.

I think that sounds like a good plan to call Dechra. Hoping the diet will help with the hunger symptoms too.

So sad about Karma. Poor baby. I think they'll get enough to do the operation though.

hugs all,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Concernedmom]

Sure no problem the nutritionist is Cat Lane her website is thepossiblecanine.com. Have you ever made your dogs food before? I think when a dog is seriously ill, they need good nutrition to maintain their current state even. This disease really makes for havoc to their whole bodies. I feel bad for you and dear Buddy and hope you can get him on the mend soon. Blessings
Patti

Thanks for the info. Yes I made Buddy's food since the end of Feb. but I think it was October that he just decided he didn't want to eat it anymore. I tried a few different recipes on him. You are correct homemade food does make a difference when they are sick. He was on kibble before this and there was a big change in him. I wish he would eat it again I would be happy to cook for him. Maybe when he gets sick of what he's eating now he'll come back to my cooking. Good luck with Tippers new food.

[Trixie]

Patti...Did you get an email that Karma the cat had the operation and is home? That girl was really special for saving that cat. I'm so glad Karma will be okay. Glad you posted the link because I feel good helping out even if what just in a small way.

Barbara

[doxiesrock912]

Patti,
I was just going to ask for the link to share with my friends on facebook when I read Barbara's post.

I pray that Karma recovers physically and emotionally.
I DESPISE people who abuse anything! I actually have to turn the channel when the ASPCA commercials come on because I start bawling immediately. So, part of me is happy not to read Karma's story.

Chris is now trained to turn it off too if I'm around. :)
"Love is....changing the channel because your fiancee can't handle ANYTHING sad. Not even a commercial." <3

[Squirt's Mom]

How is the hand today? I bet it is excruciating to try to use. :( Please take care of yourself, try to relax today and let the hand heal a bit. Curl up on the couch with Tipper and read a good book or have a movie marathon day and just let your hand rest. I thought about how difficult it would be to have one's hand impaired even just temporarily last night as I was preparing meals and changing bedding. We moms do SO much just as our daily routine that a hurt hand would be a real handicap at times...and I know you work yourself to the bone every hour of every day. ;) So take it easy today at least, 'k?

Hope our sweet Tipper had a good night and that you were able to get some rest.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I have cried and blubbered my way thru all the postings today. the passing of 2 of our own was a bit much for me to handle. Also the poor kitty Karma was weighing on my mind. Yes Barbara I did get an email also that the Dr. had performed Karma's operation and she made it successfully. Thank God as that poor kitty had suffered more in her short lifetime than she ever should have. This has been an emotional few days for me, I am sorry to say. it brings my Tipper's mortality up to the surface and scares me to death. I am not ashamed to say I am scared for my girl's life. Tipper has started with that congestive noise I tell everyone she makes when she is not controlled. She also got hungry yesterday during the day. Some of this may be attributed to no lentils so I am not sure how much is caused by what. I called Dechra yesterday, but the person who usually handles Tipper's file was out. I made the decision not to give her the trilo last nite and give her the full dose of 27mg this morning. It is hard with 3 pills tricking her, but it is done. So now we will se in a few days if this is right or if we must go higher to maybe 28. I am inching my way up as I do not want the pre number falling below like it did before. I am eagerly awaiting Tipper's recipes today to see what I must get to cook for her. I will be glad to get her started as I am worried about her lately and I think this can help. We are having a warmer day today maybe some rain. Then later in the week really low temperatures. God Bless Everyone on the forum and all your sweet babies.
Patti

[addy]

Take care of yourself, Patti and let us know how Tipper is doing.
Some days can be really hard here so take a break and maybe distract yourself with a book or movie, something you enjoy. We worry so about your pups. I admit I am afraid to put up Zoe's tree this year. We bought 4 new birds for it but now I am just afraid to put it up.:o:o

Do you like old movies? Sometimes this time of year there are some great old movies on TV. I watched the original Father of the Bride some time ago and just really enjoyed it!!!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I was online with the dietician, and of course Dechra called. I got to talk to them anyway. They said I did the procedure correctly in withholding the evening dose and giving her the whole dose in the morning. They said I am going to have to inch my way up towards 30mg. If we get close and she is not controlled then it is back on the 30mg once a day. They said she may need a much lower pre number than they would like to see in order to control the symptoms of the post number. She would have to have ACTH's more frequently- are you kidding me she averages over one a month, I don't think I can do that to her. I am praying before we hit 30 mg she is controlled. They have it in their notes that every time she is not controlled she starts with this congestive stuff. I sent a letter to the IMS and I am actually able to fax her from my own house now!! I will see what she says about all this stuff rolling around in my head. I got one meal plan for Tipper. It takes an awful lot of supplements, minerals etc. which I have already ordered. I just need to get some sweet potatoes not yams and Buckwheat groats. I have the rest here. I am anxious to get her on this and get some weight off her and get her feeling better. She usually gets her evening dose of trilo at 5 she was waiting and is acting hungry, but she was ok today. I know it will take a few days to see if this is good for her. I hope she sleeps well tonite. She has walked 3 times today. We go for the Adequan shot and blood pressure tomorrow, then I go at 4 for the kidney stone scan. I am trying my hardest to help her beat this disease back. I pray to God it works out. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hi Patti,

I agree the last couple days have been very hard and I have sobbed right along with everyone else on the forum. We hate to lose even one furbaby.

I'm glad you have a meal plan for Tipper, that should be interesting. That didn't come with any alternates that can be used if she gets tired of one thing, etc?

I do hope that this switch will help to control Tipper's cortisol. It is so hard to get under control and I think much harder when a adrenal tumor is involved.

Hang in there. You are doing so good. Dechra obviously agrees with what you have done, so you made the right call. Again. Sheezz..did you mention to them how expensive those ACTH test get and no way that anyone can keep up the pace of doing one a month even, without going broke? They just don't seem to think in terms of realistic somtimes.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[doxiesrock912]

I know Patti, sometimes it gets to be too much but I feel guilty if I don't come on here at least once a day.

I'm glad that Dechra agreed and hopefully this will help Tipper.

[frijole]

I have a question re the congestive episodes. It would seem like this is significant and I was wondering if you have videotaped them on your phone to share with the vet? It seems this stuff never happens when around a vet. I had to do that with Annie. I filmed it and put it on utube and sent the link to K State Univ. Get up close and turn up the volume so the noise that you talk about is clear in the audio.

I would be interested in seeing/ hearing that.

You had asked me about pheos and I remember reading that there is now a urine test that can be done. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can share how accurate it is etc. Sorry it wasn't offered to me or I surely would have done it.

I agree - during my long journey there were times when I was just plain exhausted and had to take a break from it all for a few days. Just to gather my strength and sanity and of course I did all that so I could enjoy the time I had with Annie. Be sure to take care of yourself and don't lose sight of the fact that both you and Tipper are very much alive and together. Enjoy each and every minute. I wish I could take your pain and worry away. I truly do. Big bear hugs, Kim

[molly muffin]

I've asked Gingers mom about the urine test, they mentioned as a possibility for Ginger to rule out a pheo.

hugs
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[lulusmom]

Patti, I haven't been keeping up with Tipper's thread and am wondering if something is going on that makes you think that Tipper may have a pheochromocytoma? I just went back to your firsts posts and reconfirmed that Tipper was diagnosed with cushing's, which was reconfirmed by Dr. Peterson. Tipper's acth post stimulated cortisol was definitely high so the adrenal gland(s) are over secreting cortisol. Pheochromocytomas don't secrete cortisol, they secrete catecholamines, epinephrine and nor-epinephrine. Some of the symptoms mimic cushing's and there is a possibility that a dog with a pheo can have concurrent cushing's but it is rare.

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
Thank you for taking the time to go thru my girl's thread as I know how busy you are. I appreciate any and all input from you. The reason I kept thinking pheo was because for about a year the adrenal tumor was not know about, which could have been the poor imagery the vet used for an Ultra Sound. So we have no way of knowing if it was there when she was first diagnosed or it came later. It worried me because I knew a pheo could be a possibility. Because Tipper has many muscle contractions and tremors at nite I thought it was similar to Kim's Annie shaking. Tipper only does this when sleeping at nite- I have never seen it in the day, and when I call her name or wake her it immediately stops. Someimes it is so bad it shakes her side and abdomen. I have read that these things can be a side effect of Vetoryl. What do you think of this? Also because this has been on my mind I faxed the IMS some questions about Tipper. I asked what she thought about this being a pheo. She said although you cannot know for sure that pheos usually have a characteristic appearance on an Ultra Sound and Tipper's did not. She also said pheo dogs do horribly under anesthesia and Tipper does wonderful. She also said that in line with the pituitary cushings the ct scan was elevated for it. This has brought some sense of calm over me. Also on her recheck of her tumor it had not increased in size at all after 2 months. I am to have it checked again January 15th. What do you make of these terrible tremors she exhibits at nite? Do you think it is the Vetoryl? I also got Tipper a nutritionist and she gave me a recipe to start her on. I am wanting to know if you think this will help her health to be on a cooked diet rather than the dog food and chicken she has been on?? Thank you in advance for your help. So many of you have thrown me a life raft at the time I felt like I was sinking and revived me again. I appreciate it greatly as this dog means the world to me. I will post after my vet visit this morning. Blessings
Patti

[frijole]

I would think if it were a pheo the tremors wouldn't stop when you called her name. Annie's were mostly at night but not just when sleeping so I think I'd cross pheo off the list.

Did you see my post re videoing the congestive episodes? Thanks, Kim

[addy]

Patti- did Tipper have these nightly sleeping tremors when she was on 30mgs once a day? I'll recap what we have had, maybe it will give you insight, not sure:

Zoe's tremors and head bobbing, and severe front leg tremors started in mid October, I had never seen them before except for her bad front leg but that tremor was never so severe that her whole head would shake from her front leg shaking. The tremors usually occurred in the early evening sometimes before her evening Vetoryl dose, sometimes after. There were times her head would shake like you described- Parkinsons and then she would literally fall over. I thought it was mini seizures. She has not had one for 12 days now and her tremors are better. Her post was 1.9 ug/dl. As you know I cut back her evening dose by one half to see what I get now.

That is why I wondered for Tipper if you saw her tremors on once day dosing.

[My sweet Ginger]

Hi Patti, do you know what your IMS meant when she said Pheo dogs do horribly under anesthesia? I'm asking because Ginger had a terrible reaction after she came out of her sedation for her ultrasound last week and I'm thinking of doing this urine test to further investigate if she has Pheo.
The more I think about Ginger's progress (reaction) since the initial Lysodren loading the more head scratching I'm doing about her cushings diagnosis. To my very untrained eye, she just seems to do better with higher cortisol level in her system:rolleyes: than those of recommended ranges which makes me think her cushings symptoms may be secondary to something else. Then what do I know about any of this? I just know when she feels better and when she does not.:o

[goldengirl88]

Kim, Song, Addy:
Thanks for reading my post. I have to say I was relieved to get the message from the IMS and she sent it to the vet also. Song when Ginger does this shaking at nite call her name loud enough just so she can hear you, and see if the shaking stops. If it is controllable that she can shut it off, then like Kim said I think it is not a pheo. I would seriously reconsider that test due to what I have been told. I don't know exactly what the IMS meant about the appearance of a pheo on an ultra sound, but I will surely ask her about it for you. The fact that Ginger did have a bad time with the anesthesia does follow with what my IMS said. It would probably involve the blood pressure going really high would be my guess?? This stuff all is enough to make me crazy, what a complicated disease this is. No one should have to go thru this. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well the IMS sent the same letter to my vet yesterday and he already read it- miracles never cease! He said it eased his mind too. Tipper had good blood pressure, but she gained weight again. Can you believe this??? So I am really happy I got the meal recipe so I can get her started. I went over Tipper's dosage change with the vet and told him what Dechra said. We will probably got to a dosage of 8mg on the trilo then as I am inching my way up even though it is more expensive I must do it this way. I am not giving her one more mg of this stuff than is absolutely necessary. I told him about the change in diet and he totally agreed with it. He said you are the only client I have that would ever do this to help their dog, and I have confidence in you ,that you are determined enough with Tipper that this will in fact help her. Glad he is confident in me as I am shivering in my boots at the thought of all this food prep. and getting it right. I told him also about her congestive sounds again as she is uncontrolled. She got her Adequan and hopefully this and the new dosage will put her where she needs to be. I am giving her until the end of this week to see if this change in when she gets the dosage amount helps her. If not Monday morning I will call the vet to get the 8mg dosage form DiamondBack to add to the 20 mg Vetoryl I have. I had to call the place where I get her chicken and order dark meat also. She has to eat a combo of both and I was only feeding her the white before because of the fat, but I guess she needs this instead. This is costing a small fortune I do not have for 25 lbs of the chicken, all the supplements, minerals, fish oil and plus all the supplements I give her. I am gong to have a very tight month with funds due to all this. It needs to be so no more whining on that front. I got myself together yesterday after a few crying days and I am ready for battle again. I hope there mini novels I write help someone else from any mistakes, or help them to figure something out they have been wondering about. If so it is all worth it. Blessings
Patti

[frijole]

Hi Patti, do you know what your IMS meant when she said Pheo dogs do horribly under anesthesia? I'm asking because Ginger had a terrible reaction after she came out of her sedation for her ultrasound last week and I'm thinking of doing this urine test to further investigate if she has Pheo.
y to something else.

Song, pheos are basically tumors that emit adrenaline and cause high blood pressure. They are not always active. When they are active they emit the adrenaline. This is why using anesthesia is a risk with them. Prior to surgery they are given specific drugs to help with this.

That said my Annie had to have emergency dental work done because her vet refused to clean her teeth (and put her under) due to the pheo... but she had an infection so bad it ate through the side of her face! Yes a hole. Anyway they put her under to do that work and she did just fine.

So saying that they'll have a bad time with it is probably not quite right... it's more like "it is more challenging as problems can occur". There are different types of anesthesia so I would certainly tell your vet about it and suggest they try something different next time.

Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Patti, be sure to check Song and Ginger's thread - she posted some good details on testing for Pheos we want to be sure you see. ;)

[goldengirl88]

Kim:
I am glad you asked me if I saw your post re video of congestive noises. For some reason I missed it and just now read it. I am going to try it, the only problem is I will need to turn the TV down so her noises can be heard, and as soon as I do she wakes up. I have to have someone see this and hear it. Thank you for always helping when I need it. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well Tipper was up and down last nite. She had a lot of tremors all through the nite. Usually it subsides when she is sleeping awhile which is making me question if this could be a something associated with REM sleep as during that time there is no inhibition of voluntary muscles. Could the Vetoryl be causing this during her REM sleep??? There are also things called myoclonic jerks. If you ever woke suddenly thought your arm or leg jerked, it is very common from what I understand. Could the Vetoryl make you predisposed to moer myoclonic jerks and this is what I am seeing. Tipper breathes different during this time also which the IMS and other Dr.'s at the hospital said this is part of her sleep pattern. I am going to try and capture it on my IPhone, but my greatest fear is that someone will tell me it is symptoms of a pheo. secreting adrenaline. I have not received the supplements for Tipper's new diet yet, but did get part of the food yesterday. I cannot find sweet potatoes, as the whole world thinks that yams are sweet potatoes as she cannot have yams it must be sweet potatoes because of the vitamins and yams are full of sugar. Finally I thought to call the store that orders the chicken in for Tipper. They said they would be more than glad to help and will order me 10lbs. I can have them tomorrow. Can you believe this that all the other big stores cannot get these?? Thank God because when the supplements come I will have everything to make her food. I am anxious to get her started as she gained weight again and I believe it has to be metabolic. I actually count her dog food nuggets so how can that be?? Tipper has already walked twice so we are in for the day as I see rain coming. I need to do paperwork and pay bills and catch up on office stuff so she will be bored. Blessings
Patti

[spdd]

Hi Patti... just catching up on things. Sure hope the diet works for Tipper.

Keesh and I are well, other then my back is killing me from lifting him. He's fine though.... the little so and so.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
If you can believe this luck! Tipper was taking a nap on my bed. She started with the tremors and noise she makes breathing, so I grabbed the IPhone and started to video it, just as I started the ____ phone rang from the vets office and I had to answer it. I guess I video taped the walls in my room as it was still running as I was talking. I will try later or tomorrow. We are having all kinds of storm warnings and the temperature had dropped some 25 degrees in the last few hours. Watch Tipper's sweet potatoes and chicken will be in over the weekend and I will have to go out in this to get it! Never fails that something comes up when I want to stay in. I hope all this is gone by Tuesday when I have to go to Pittsburgh to the Dr. I am going to catch two kitties here who need their nails trimmed. Blessings
Patti

[Mel-Tia]

Hello there

Just nipping into say hey

Typical that you were just taping and the phone rung!

Was glad to read that you managed to get hold of those pesky sweet potatoes as that would have been a nightmare if you couldn't. Seems like the nutritionist was very thorough so I really hope it helps. I know how diligently you watch what you feed her so lets hope she drops a few ounces and isn't so hungry.

Stay safe and warm in all these storms, the uk is getting some wintry weather too, is very cold but no snow yet. Hoping everyone stays safe

Big hug to you and kisses to Tipper the Ripper

Mel
Xxxxxx

[goldengirl88]

Hi Mel:
I miss you and know you are busy, but looking in on us and keeping track of what is going on. Tipper is scaring me with all the tremors etc. at nite. I am hoping to get to the bottom of this once and for all. Hope you and Boyce are doing well. We are in the middle of a nasty storm right now so we are staying in unless I have to go out to get the sweet potatoes!! Blessings to you both
Patti

[addy]

It is so cold outside, Patti and it looks like Arkansas was hit with ice and now snow:(

We might have snow today or tomorrow for sure:mad: I dont like that word:p

I wish we knew what all these tremors meant for our pups. I did watch an online video of a Kings Charles with Cushings and read an article posted by a "vet" saying those tremors are typical for Cush pups. Zoe's seem more pronounced ( and since she never had them before I tend to think I have either uncovered somethingwith the lower cortisol or something else is going on.

With Tipper, she has had them now for awhile so it may just be Cushings for her. We will both keep searching for answers.

Lots of love

[Squirt's Mom]

Patti, don't risk your limbs or life for sweet potatoes! Tipper will be fine if you need to wait a week or so to get started - that is MUCH better than you harming yourself or worse....then who would do all you do for Tipper? ;) Don't take risks you don't absolutely HAVE to til the weather clears...and SP ain't a "have to". ;)

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well we woke up this morning to about 3 inches of new snow. Tipper is happy to have it and has already walked. The temperature is 35 so she can walk if it is above 32. She had some tremors last nite, not as many as the nite before though. I am trying to get it worked out to video as when she lays down to sleep the only lite is from my TV and I could clearly see yesterday that is not enough to see her well. If I turn on a lite she wakes up, so I am going to have to leave a small lite on and see if she will lay down and sleep with it on. We are to be getting the bad storm for 3 days here so I called and cancelled my Dr. 's appointment and made it for January instead. I can't be getting in a wreck on ice with my sick dog at home with a sitter, I am not chancing that. The only reason I will go out is to get her sweet potatoes and chicken when they come in. Hopefully the supplements will be here today and I can make her food this weekend. Hope everyone on here stays safe and warm with their babies. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Leslie:
Oh my you hung in there? What is it like down there? Probably lots of ice? I will get the sweet potatoes only if the main route is clear and it goes right to that store. They usually clear the main highways so I will wait and see. can you believe I got the sweet potatoes and she will order them any time I need them. I was afraid to ask what they cost so I skipped that part. Hope you and the babies are safe and warm. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

Hi Patti,
Sorry that Tipper has been having these tremors. Does she seem bothered at all by them?
My friend just texted me a photo of the snow falling in Pittsburgh. I guess you already have snow on the ground where you are..glad Tipper got to get out to walk in it. We had warm weather and rain showers all day, now our temps are dropping fast..and it's pouring like crazy, I don't know if Trixie will go out in this for her before bed walk, and that would be a problem. Hoping it lets up or changes to snow over the next hour.

Barbars

[frijole]

When I left for work this morning the temp was MINUS 1. When I came home the sun was out and it hard warmed up... all the way to 11 degrees. OMG is it cold. We are supposed to get snow on Sunday night - nothing here yet in Nebraska. The whole country is frozen!

Back to the tremors and the breathing issues... I can see the challenge of filming but please keep trying as I'd really think it would be helpful to see it. Not just us but also the vet. Hang in there and stay warm. Kim

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
It is very cold here and I could hear ice hitting the windows last nite. The ground is just really ice crusted on top of snow. I am waiting to see if they call about Tipper's chicken today as she is completely out as of yesterday. I gave her white fish this morning, she ate it but it does not fill her up like her chicken. Hoping the sweet potatoes are in too and can pick them up at the same time. Tipper had some tremors last nite not nearly like the nite before. I left a small lite on, and she would not go to sleep. I need the lite so I can video her tremors so I hope if I leave it on a few nites she will forget about it and go to sleep so I can video her. With only the tv lite it is too dark to see. I will keep trying. Her supplements did not come yet so I am still waiting for those too. She has not walked today as I am afraid of her slipping on the ice and those back legs going out on her. We are in for more ice and snow over the next 3 days. I cancelled my appt. with the Dr. in Pittsburgh so I will be home with my girl. Blessings
Patti

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Hi Patti,
I just want to let you know that Freckles has the shakes/tremors while awake for these various reasons that I have finally figured out in the past couple weeks:
1. upset stomach
2. has to pee or poop
3. torn ACL in back leg bothering her
She had the shakes in her hind legs before vetoryl, while on vetoryl, and now she still has them while she is in the vetoryl "wash out" month of no vetoryl.

Like you, I do not want to take her out in bad weather, but she knows that she is supposed to go out, so she "holds it in" and shakes.
If the weather is damp, the ACL could be bothering her, so she shakes.
The upset stomach caused the most shakes, even full body ones. Vetoryl can cause stomach upsets, but they need it to control Cushings, so it is a Catch-22. The full body shakes while awake stopped when all medicines were stopped and she ate a bland diet. It calmed her stomach but I know I will she will need the Vetoryl so the stomach problems may return then.

The full body shakes while sleeping have happened to all my beagles over the years, and to me, they are just good dreams. The really active & noisy ones are the ones that we would say she must be chasing a rabbit in her dreams.

I hope the new diet works well and will be interested to see how it goes once you get all the ingredients. I am considering doing what you are doing once I get her digestive system settled with her bland diet.

Louise

[goldengirl88]

Hi Louise and Everyone:
Louise thank you for the information. This is very hard to figure out about Tipper. I got her chicken and sweet potatoes. The produce manager could not have been sweeter, and gave me a holiday price too! Gotta save where I can. I stopped at the vets to get Tipper and Lucky's Ursodiol and the girl told me it would be 145.00. I said real loud "what!!!" I said I pay 60.00 for it and I refuse to pay 145.00 this is outrageous. She called someone and said ok it's 60.00. What a bunch of malarkey that was. You have to speak and and be heard or you get snookered every time. I am disappointed that the supplements did not come though so I cannot make the food until they come. So I guess I have to wait and see Monday. The roads were very icy with black ice and I saw 2 cars wrecked in ditches from it. I went slow and was safe so now all that is done. Tipper needed chicken anyway even if she can't start her diet as I ran out and had to give her fish this morning. It does not stay with her like the chicken. Snow is coming down and the sun is shining and it looks beautiful, but only 19 degrees. I walked Tipper around in the yard to get her legs moving, not heavy walking in these temps because of her heart having to work too hard. Blessings
Patti

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Patti,
Does the meal plan from the nutritionist tell you how much of the sweet potatoes to feed Tipper? Freckles has been on white rice and chicken but got constipated so I gave her sweet potatoes instead of rice. I must have given her too much as things went the other way. Now I am back on white rice but I need to find a happy medium so her system can get back to being regular. The sweet potatoes act like pumpkin I read.
Looks like we (NJ) are going to get your bitter cold weather later in the week. The cold never seems to bother Freckles but I worry anyway.
Stay warm.
Thanks
Louise

[frijole]

Patti,

I'm responding to your comment in Snuggles thread. I feel awful that you are worried that Tipper might have a pheo and that is why I asked about the video - just so I could see the breathing episodes. I know you'll manage it once the lighting issues are worked out.

Does Tipper have high blood pressure? I'm sorry but I could not remember if you ever mentioned it. If not you can feel better about it not being a pheo. I was told dogs with pheos always have HBP. Kim

[goldengirl88]

Kim:
Tipper has had some higher than "her" normal blood pressures but not high according to the vet and IMS. She was at 120 before she gained the pound, and now 140. She has had some 150 and 170 but I get hers done every Wednesday so out of 14 months she has had about 7 higher than normal for her. Only once did she have a 190 and we were having a storm and she is deathly afraid of them. This is the one that the eye Dr. thinks made her vessels bleed in her eyes. They are fine now and it is gone. We had many storms this summer, and I am sure they are the cause of some of her higher than normal readings for her. Do you think if this was a Pheo that the tremors would stop when I call her name and she wakes up, or would they continue? That is the case if I shake her or call her name and wake her it stops immediately. Do pheos only secrete at nite?? IF she did not have these tremors I would not be concerned that this is a possibility. I am not sure when this tumor started on her adrenal gland, as the vet that diagnosed her pituitary cushings did not have a high resolution US. So it could have been there all along. It was only discovered when Leslie told me to go where there is a high resolution machine. I took her to Pgh. to the hospital there and they saw it. It is on the left one it encapsulates the adrenal gland, and has not traveled anywhere else, and has not grown when I took her 2 months after it was discovered. The IMS told me that pheos look different in US than a regular tumor, whatever that means. She is to go again on the 15th of January that will be 3 months to see if it has grown. I am still trying to get the video for you to see, I will try again tonite. If I could somehow eliminate that as a possibility I would not be so worried. Easier said than done huh? This makes me a nervous wreck, and when she has these tremors at nite I am having a hard time sleeping after seeing them. Thank you for all the help you have been to me. This dog is my lifeline, and I am desperately trying to do whatever I can to keep the quality of life she currently has, or make it better. Blessings
Patti

[frijole]

Those blood pressure readings are mostly normal so I would say she doesn't have it but good for you for monitoring. Pheos emit when they feel like it not just at night and absolutely a dog would not quit trembling when their name is called. Annie was like in another world when it was happening which freaked me out. I just held her close but couldn't stop it. So I tend to think the trembling is from something else. That said it's the breathing episode I'm curious about. Not saying it is a pheo I am just saying it is not something we normally hear about (strange noise you mentioned) and that is why I think it's worth filming. I tend to think it is not a pheo. Hugs, Kim

[beaglemom3]

Hi Patti,
I don't know if this helps or not but my local vet told me right after he got the ultrasound report, that if the tumor is on the inside of the adrenal gland, then it would be due to Cushings, if the tumor is on the outer side of the adrenal gland it would be a pheo tumor. Praying for Tipper not to have a pheo. Can they tell from Tippers ultrasound where the tumor is located exactly inside or out?

[frijole]

Wow interesting I had never heard that before (about location) Kim

[beaglemom3]

I might have gotten it mixed up , pheos are the tumors in the adrenal medulla which is the center of the adrenal gland and cushings tumors are in the adrenal cortex which is along the perimeter of the adrenal gland, I will ask the IMS or my local vet so I can post the correct facts.

[Renee]

I'm not a dog nutritionist by trade.. but, I'd like to jump in on the home cooked diet with my own experience. I am currently cooking for my girl pug, and have ample experience doing raw and cooked diets for past fosters long-term. Today was one of my cooking days, so I just made 2 weeks worth of food in advance.

The ideal balance for meat vs carbs/veggies is 3 to 1. Three parts protein (meat) to one part veggies and carbs. You can lessen this, but should never, ever go below 50/50, although I would personally think 50/50 is way too low on protein. I go for an ideal of 70/30 to 80/20.

My girl pug is 18 pounds, and I do 7 to 7.5 oz of meat to 2.5 oz of veggies for one day worth of feeding. A kitchen scale is invaluable

The best way for uptake on the veggies is for them to be cooked and mashed or pureed. I start by boiling or steaming the veggies, and then after they cool I mash them (sweet potatoes or squash) or run through the food processor (zucchini, kale, collards). I add in peas or green beans too. While I am mashing / processing, I will boil the meat. I like to use ground meat, but you can use chunks of muscle meat too. You can toss in some liver or kidney as well, but that ratio should be 90% muscle meat, and only 10% organ meat. It is best to lightly cook the meat. It really doesn't take long.

Patti, I am interested to know what supplements your nutritionist suggested! I have only used B Naturals or Wysong in the past, so I'd love to know what your nutritionist is recommending.

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Renee,
Thank you so much for the portion information and your valuable experience in preparing people food for our babies. It's just what I was hoping to read. So far Freckles has had problems with ground beef, even though it was 92% lean and boiled, but I am not sure if it was the beef or that she wolfed it down too fast in typical beagle fashion. I have to feed her in a special bowl with a raised bone in it that keeps her from taking big gulps of food. :)
I am happy to report that her beagle howls woke me this morning. It's been a long time since that happened, so I am hopeful her insides are calming down.
I hope everyone has a calm Sunday.
Louise

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I don't know what I would od without all of your help. I thank you all as this is a very hard journey for me. That being said I talked in depth with Glynda about Tipper's situation. She is wise beyond what you can even imagine, and a heart of gold to match. After going into details with her, I am going to let go of the pheo theory from what she said I feel comfortable that is not what Tipper has. I believe and does Glynda that this is a combination of the Vetoryl and something else like muscle wasting. Anyone on here reading this that you dog has tremors, please try something for me. If their legs is jumping please hold it firmly and see if you feel some type of energy coursing thru it. It is like holding an electrical cord and feeling the current running thru it. I will continue to try and film her doing this she still will not lay down with the lite on and I am so tired this morning from it. Also Glynda told me to examine where her breast bone is and, I have seen in the last months it going south more and more. This is fat redistribution and when she lays down may be pressing on her diaphragm causing the breathing noises. Makes perfect sense to me. Especially with her moving about the bed a lot she is trying to breathe better that is why she lays flat when she gets frustrated as this must alleviate the pressure. I need to definitely get the weight off her that she gained as this adds to the pressure. I won't be able to make the diet until Tuesday or Wednesday as no supplements came yet. Louise the sweet potato that she is allowed is for a 1 week portion of two cups mashed. Renee I will have to look at the completed list of supplements that I have not gotten yet. I have the main ones now and there will be some for Tipper's specific condition. I know the calcium ranks high on the list. Also for all of you wondering about too much protein in a cush dogs diet, I can tell you after all I have learned from Glynda and the nutritionist that is the phosphorous you need to watch out for not the protein, as it effects the kidneys. I never thought when I saw the word Cushings after researching Tipper's symptoms, that this journey would be so overwhelming. This is one of the worst if not the worst disease to manage and educate yourself on as it has no bounds. The material on it is endless, but the part that is so hurtful is there is no one even near finding all the causes and the cure. The amount of dogs with this disease is astronomical and grow every day as evidenced on this forum. God I pray for a cause and cure to be found so others that come after us don't have to travel this journey. Sometimes I feel my head will burst with all the things I try and read and remember and figure out. One thing is constant though, I will go on no matter what, to help my precious girl. This morning it is very frigid here I think in the single digits. The dogs will not be walking, but if it warms up I will take them in the yard and around the house to get their legs moving. The streets here look like glass they are so icy and more to come Monday. I am glad I do not have to go out. If it is bad Wednesday I will skip Tipper's blood pressure which I never do, but it is not worth an accident. I remember all to well last year when that man ran me off the road and kept going. I do not want that experience again. I am going to take this time to catch up on some things inside that need my attention. Hope everyone stays safe and warm with their babies. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Louise:
I am glad you had that thing about the tumor wrong as Tipper's is on the outside surrounding the adrenal gland. I am going to ask the IMS on the next US January 15th if it can be see going into her medulla or not. I think it would involve the cortex in her case but not positive. I know is Latin medulla means the center of something.Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, I am so glad Glynda was able to help you with settling the pheo question in your mind! She is a true treasure and has done the same for me so many times. I have been in total full-blown panic and Glynda can laugh at me for it and all is well immediately. I do tend to make mountains out of mole hills when it comes to my babies. :o:p You do remember the breast cancer / boob incident? :p:D:o:p:D:o And there have been many others over the years here. Our family is always here to help us think things through and take that next breath with a bit more ease. What would we do without them?

Speaking of ice - I left the outside faucet running so it wouldn't freeze. Maybe running a bit too strongly, tho. :D The pipes haven't frozen but the yard is a solid sheet of ice! Looks like an ice skating rink and that water is steady running, building it thicker and thicker! :p

[lulusmom]

Hi Patti,

When you observe Tipper walking, particularly when she is walking away from you, have you noticed a difference in her gait? Does her rear legs look really stiff when she walks and and does she walk with a wide based stance? Have you massaged her back legs, starting at the hip and noticed anything that feels like a dimpling or knot?

Glynda

[goldengirl88]

Glynda:
She does walk kind of straight legged at times because she has luxating patella problems. She does however go to cold laser therapy once every 3 weeks, and they do her hip, back legs, back etc. I notice she does have a wider gait at times too. I have not noticed a knot anywhere near the hip. There is however a place about 2 inches long on her back where you can see it sunk from the weight of her belly pulling down and no muscle to hold it up. She does not always let you manipulate the rear legs, she gets a little nasty. Thank you so much for all your help. I am able to make better sense of things now. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

In my experience, with non-cush dogs, tremors and inability to settle, circling, laying down and getting back up, are indicators of pain or muscle spasms. I have my old man pug on methocarbamol, which is a muscle relaxer, to help with this. He has a bad back and lots of arthritis. If he's in pain, he has a hard time laying down and settling. The muscle relaxer helps a lot. He also gets rimadyl daily too, but the muscle relaxer has made a big impact for him.

[addy]

HIJACK:D:D


When you observe Tipper walking, particularly when she is walking away from you, have you noticed a difference in her gait? Does her rear legs look really stiff when she walks and and does she walk with a wide based stance? Have you massaged her back legs, starting at the hip and noticed anything that feels like a dimpling or knot?

Zoe walks like that and her gait has changed since her surgery last February. What does it mean?

[goldengirl88]

Addy:
I am wondering that too.

[Woodydog]

Me too as Woody walked like this and had a wide gait just before he collapsed the other week. Sorry patti we,re hijacking your thread :D

[goldengirl88]

No problem, hijack away. As long as we all need help it doesn't matter which post we get it from right? This has me very curious. Blessings
Patti

[kaibosmom]

Ok....very interested in these new gait postings. Kaibo has had changes too. And currently is unable to move very well as his hip is partially dislocated. Your comments about the stiff walk, changed gait, etc interest me. Is this discussed in anyone's thread? I don't mean to hijack too but I want all info I can get to help Kaibo! The Cushing's may be gone for him but clearly his body still has damage from the disease/tumour.

[spdd]

Hi Patti. I know it's a daily struggle for us all with our fur babies, and everyday I wonder if something new is going to crop up. I totally agree that so much more research has to be done, but I also know from this forum, I've never seen in a lot of cases so poorly educated veterinarians. Sometimes I wonder just what they actually study before they get their certificate. I know in my case if I'd listened to the vet, Keesh would have been dead now 5 months.

Stay safe with all this bad weather, give Tipper a big hug from me and Keesh.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I am still at it trying to make Tipper sleep with the lite on. This may be a losing battle. She is like a little old lady that is set in her ways and doesn't like change. She has been making a lot of snoring sounds at nite. I did notice after her Adequan shot the tracheal issues are calming a bit. It is suppose to go in the 30's today so she will get her walk. Talk about naughty, she was really at it yesterday letting me know she does not like staying in the house and not walking. She was bulldozing stuff, taking Toby's ball so he would whine, trying to pull some of her toys apart. Just general naughtiness to let me know she is irked with me. It is very dark out today and some more snow on the ground. I am hoping her supplements come today. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Would Tipper notice if you lit candles after she was asleep? You might try setting some up around the bed then when she's out, light them and try to video tape her. I don't think it would take many candles to give enough light to see what she is doing.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I think I may try the candles or I have a tap lite. Maybe after she is sleeping I could just tap the lite on and it is not real brite and she would not notice. God ,don't you feel stupid when you can't outsmart your dog???? Tipper has walked twice and it is black outside looks like rain maybe. I am trying to catch up on things in here that need done. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Patti - you are owned by a Jack Russell you will never outsmart them :D

[frijole]

Good one. Very very good.

[beaglemom3]

Patti I know the feeling, my boys can outsmart me when it comes to stealing food, Snugs does the sneakiest thing, he pretends he needs to go potty by going into the kitchen and circling by the glass sliding door, but the second I walk into the kitchen to let him out he runs over to the pantry where the goodies are LOL

[Renee]

Patti - you are owned by a Jack Russell you will never outsmart them :D

Hahahahaha! So true! So very true! We've had a few terriers come through our rescue, and every time someone adopts them, I think what a special person it must take to understand and adore that terrier personality! :p

[Squirt's Mom]

Squirt isn't JRT but she is half Cairn Terrier and I have never been able to trick her. There have been times when I thought I had tricked her but the look in her eye told me quite plainly that she was allowing me to think that! :p

[doxiesrock912]

Patti, you sure have your hands full with Tipper. I can't trick Daisy but she responds well to bribery.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well I got all ready last nite, had the tap lite to turn on for light , and had the phone all ready, so what does Tipper do? She gets off the bed and goes in her crate and stays there. I am going to video this if I have to wait all nite already this is ridiculous. It was just like she knew I could not video her in the crate. Lots of throaty noise this morning from her. It is only 22 outside so she will not be walking. Poor little Toby threw up all nite, and this morning too, can't keep his food down. I di not know what is wrong. I will keep a close watch, and if need be take him to the vets as he is in today and tomorrow. He is always running around 100 miles an hour and this morning he is curled up in a ball. This just came on last nite. Just what I need another sick animal! I have still not received the supplements for Tipper's food yet, I am a little disgusted that it is taking so long to get them. All I can do is wait. Tomorrow is blood pressure day. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Where did you order the supplements from? Did they all come from one place? It seems to always take a long time to get the kelp we use but the others don't take that long if memory serves. I don't have to reorder often enough to really remember but I do remember getting frustrated over the kelp.

[doxiesrock912]

Awwwwww. Poor Toby! Maybe he ate something he shouldn't have?

[Budsters Mom]

Oh no! Poor "sweet as chocolate Toby boy"!:o Please keep a close eye on him and make sure he doesn't get dehydrated. Xxxx

[beaglemom3]

How is Toby doing? I hope he is all better!

[molly muffin]

Oh no, hope Toby is doing better. Not good for him to be throwing up like that. :(
You definitely don't need him to get sick too, what with Tipper and Lucky already having issues.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
His nick name is Tobers so poor Tobers is under the weather. If not beet tomorrow Tipper goes for blood pressure unless it is bad out as we are to get lake effect snow. He did keep his supper down. He may have picked up a piece of wood form Elvis. Elvis had toys to keep him occupied and her gets chipping away at the wooden ones and sometimes wails a small piece out. I try to watch but can't always be there, so maybe Toby picked one of those up. I hope he is better by morning. He is the baby, he whines and cries when something is wrong. Then we have Tipper the Ripper that is tuff as nails and never cries. So I have to baby poor Toby and he loves the attention. He is the sweetest little thing. Kathy remembered his name on his papers was Sweet As Chocolate Toby Boy, and he is! Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I sent a question to the IMS today about Tipper's breath. It has been bad lately and never was before. I brush her teeth every day but maybe that is not enough, and before she got Cushings she had them cleaned once a year, every year. I wanted to know if she thought it was safe with her heart and all to put her under to clean teeth as I don't want bacteria going other heart, I am well aware of that and that is why I always brush every critters teeth here every day, well except for Elvis!! She want to refer me to the dentist there to get a consultation. I think not , I will speak to my vet, and then let the IMS see her teeth on the same day she checks the tumor and see what she thinks then. They must think went Tipper goes potty 50.00 bills come out. I have really extended myself this past month on her care and have the Ultra Sound and Cardiologist coming up, so I need to watch it big time. I will talk to the vet tomorrow about it. Maybe he can figure something else out. Any ideas out there are most welcome. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

My first thought with breath, is not necessarily are the teeth in bad shape if they are taken care of, but what has changed in the diet. If nothing at all has changed, then back to whether or not the teeth are okay or not.
You can look at them and see if there is any plaque and how the gums look. That will give you an idea at least of eliminating or narrowing down possibilities.

I know that if Molly get anything with liver in it, that it's going to be rough for the entire household. Her breath smells, her toots can clear a 5 mile radius at least. There are just some things that they will belch up, etc. If there is anything new or different in the diet that might be the culprit.

Hope Tobers continues to do better, it's a good sign that he kept his dinner down. You just never know with these guys what they will pick up from where.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[flynnandian]

i'm new here on this forum and i read a lot about supplements. is there a list on this forum? my cushing dogs only get some extra vitamins and omega 3 fish oil. they are on a barf-diet all their life.
and is there a reason why you are giving the vetoryl in 2 different parts? i give it in 2 equel parts with 12 hours in between.
thanks for your answers.

[flynnandian]

before he was getting vetoryl, my eldest cushing dog ian was trembling over his whole body when getting tired during walks. the last time this happened he collapsed totally. i went to the vet and after some tests he was put on vetoryl and they stopped completely. no more trembling since the day he was put on vetoryl [nov 23]. l'm glad but may be it can come back? his muscles in his hindquarters are much stronger so it seems. and this all in 3 weeks with an almost 13 year old dog. hope it stays this way. he had no tremors during his sleep.
can you also tell me about tippers diet? thank you gr iris.

[Concernedmom]

Hi Patti that is so interesting you bringing up Tippers breath. I'm having the same problem with Buddy and I didn't even think of the change in diet until Sharlene mentioned it. I wonder if that is the problem with my Buddy. I used to brush his teeth but my fault I stopped doing it because he hated it and now he won't let me touch his teeth. I tried brushing them today and he took a fit. I cannot stress him out so I guess he won. I hope you figure out Tippers problem.

[spdd]

Hiya Patti.... Keesh's breath would knock your sox off. It's a combination of his teeth and I think his liver. I bought the milk thistle tablets and give him 1/2 dosage that adults take. He improved literally in a day. I don't always give it to him, but you can bet he certainly gets it before his hydrotherapy as both myself and therapist are at head level in the water with him. I'm going to get his teeth cleaned possibly in the new year, as all his blood work says he should be able to withstand the anesthetic, but I'm pretty leery of doing it at his age.

The milk thistle won't hurt anything so maybe it's worth a try. Just buy the pure brand, no additives. I got mine at Walmart, not very expensive.

Hope Toby is feeling better and you are taking care of yourself as well.

Hugs from Keesh and myself.

[goldengirl88]

Judi:
Id already give Tipper milk thistle. I am going to fax a note to my vet. He was not there this morning when we had the Bp done. Tipper gained weight again. The Bp was good at 130. I will let you know what the vet suggests. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well another day and the supplements did not come so I will be calling when I am done here. Tipper had good Blood pressure today at 130, but gained weight again. This is going to make me crazy. The vet was not in as usual so I will fax a note and ask him for a plan on cleaning her teeth and seeing if something is wrong in her mouth. She went in her crate again last nite so no video. This dog is too ____ smart for her own good. I am going to just have it out with these supplement suppliers if they do not have a good explanation for this. It 's enough already. I need to get her on a diet as of 2 weeks ago, and I am not waiting any longer. It is 15 degrees here so not walking again today. The sun is out but it is very deceiving. Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

So happy to hear Tipper had a good bp reading That's wonderful! How is Toby feeling?

[goldengirl88]

Toby is his old self this morning. Not exactly sure what it was but he is fine now. I am glad as he gets real stressed out at the vets and I am happy he does not have to go now. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

Can't believe the supplements are still not in!? That's a long wait on those things. Any chance you can get them from somewhere else?

I just got in the Wysong supplements I ordered (through Amazon), and they are really great. It is so nice to put away all my old supplements and have just one that covers everything! I still have to add fish oil... but not adding separate calcium, green food, probiotics, and regular vitamins/minerals is so very nice!

[goldengirl88]

I usually get everything form Amazon and the nutritionist wanted me to use this site. I will switch after this time as I get my Amazon stuff right away. I am getting ready to go to the post office if the mail person does not bring it. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hope the postman delivered the supplements today!!

Good BP!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
We woke up to 6 inches of snow on the ground and 12 degree temperatures so Tipper will not be walking again unfortunately for us both. Toby is better I don't know what was wrong with him, but last nite I heard him make a noise like her was going to throw up but didn't. I need to monitor him closely the next few days. Tipper had some muscle tremors last nite around 3 so I did to get up and try to video. We have to go to laser therapy today, so I need to see by 10:am if the roads are clear enough to go or I will cancel. I went to the post office and got the supplements yesterday. As soon as I decide if we are going to therapy or not, I will know when to start cooking her food. I am only giving her small amounts with her regular meal until she gets used to it. I do not want to deal with diarrhea form a diet change. The mouse is back, I do not know how as I patched all the holes, so when I get time today I have to figure this out. I had to take out everything under my sink and Clorox everything. I am getting sick if this little critter, but knowing myself if I come upon him I would probably take him somewhere and set him free, as I do not kill anything. I hope we have some warmer temps and snow as I would like to take the dogs pictures in their snowsuits they look so cute. I heard nothing back from the note I sent my vet about Tipper's breath and how we could safely clean her teeth. He will wait till next week until I call him, he is just such a louse. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Patti, sorry to hear Toby still isn't feeling well, I hope it clears up soon!

I never used them but some people on my beagle email lists have, there are services that clean teeth w/o any anesthesia and they do it in your own home. You may want to ask your vet about it.

[Renee]

YAY for the supplements, finally!! I bet you are ready to get started on the diet.

No snow here, but cold and icy. I'd actually welcome some snow instead of all the ice!

If the muscle tremors get bad, you could ask about using methocarbomol. I use this on my pug Ichiro. It is a lifesaver for us. It really helps him to settle and be able to sleep.

[goldengirl88]

Hi everyone:
I just finished my first batch of dog food. Needless to say I am laying down with Tipper! I know why people just buy dog food. This is not easy, and requires cooking many things. I have already started to transition her. We also had laser therapy today, and the roads were not good. We just went slow. I got home and started to get the stuff ready to cook and when I opened the sweet potatoes, they were yams! Dear God I was ready to scream. I had to go back out and find some. Can you believe a produce manager would not know the difference? Well I got them so now I have 10 lbs of yams I do not need. I am sure the food making will get easier. Tipper was in rare form at the laser therapist, she gave the therapist a kiss! She seemed really at ease, and enjoyed her session for once! Well that is all for now, I am beat. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

Hey Patti - don't worry, you'll find your groove with the cooking! And, I encourage you to cook in large batches and freeze the food. Do you have a kitchen scale yet? You can get one online, or even at walmart, for about $20. Get a digital one. It is so nice! It will save you so much time too. Especially since supplements for dogs are usually based on weight (ounces and pounds), not volume (cups).

Here is how I do the food prep:

First, get a bunch of cheap plastic containers, like gladware, that can hold a days worth of food. Get at least 2 weeks worth (so 7 containers at least). I always do the veggies first. Chop them up, boil or steam. If I am cooking sweet potatoes, I will boil those, and steam other veggies in the microwave. Once they are done cooking, drain them in the sink and let them cool. Then start the meat. I boil the meat. I usually use ground meat, but you can use chunks too.

While the meat is cooking, I will mash up the veggies. Either use a potato masher, or run them through a food processor. It depends on the veggies and potatoes you are using, which method. The pureed veggies are much easier to digest for dogs.

When the meat is done, drain it and rinse it. This removes the extra fat. Then, once it cools a bit, start weighing it out. I start with the container on the scale, set the scale to not count the containers weight, then measure in the meat. My pug gets 7.5 ounces of meat per day. When all the meat is measured out, I go back, and add the veggies on top. She gets 2.5 of veggies per day.

Then, I freeze all but 2 days worth. Each day, I take one container out of the freezer, so it has 24 hours to thaw.

What did you nutritionist say about the yams versus sweet potatoes? I'm interested to know! ;)

[spdd]

First off, I'm glad you finally got the supplements. Boo on the sweet potato screw up though.

You make me tired just thinking about all the cooking you have to do, and I thought I had it rough just cooking up special meat for Keesh.

I'm glad Tipper enjoyed the laser therapy. I just had a rough time keeping Keesh still for the 5 minutes or so that it took.

Just my thoughts on the supplements, and I don't know what all you have to use, but last week I made a stew for us humans. No onions in it or spices. Stewing beef, small chopped potatos, carrots, peas, pretty plain. I simmered it all day. I put a plate down for Keesh before I thickened the sauce and he literally almost inhaled everything. I just might make a huge batch of human stew and get all the good things into him that way.

There is a lot of talk at the therapy swim about bone broth being so good for dogs, so I though the stew broth would be helpful.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I was dead after cooking all that food for Tipper and running all day. I started the transition with her food yesterday. As I sat down to type this today she went into the worst vestibular episode she has had to date. She wanted me to hold her as it must scare her, and she was trying to move in a circle the whole time I held her, she got really keyed up trying to move, it's like they cannot stop this when it starts, and have to move with it. It really scared me this time. We are both ok though. Last nite I could hear gastro noises coming from Tipper most of the nite. She got up at 5am to go potty and it started out well formed then turned to like a pudding consistency. She never goes like that so I know it was the diet. I am in contact with the nutritionist about it. She may have to stay off it today. I only put a small amount with her regular meal. I am exhausted after staying up trying to video her. I had a light right on her and had the IPhone videoing her for 10 minutes. She did not do a thing and I got tired of holding the phone. finally I get it all set up where you can see what is on the video and she does nothing! I swear this dog knows what she is doing! No walking today either it is 15 here. I am taking it easy today and not doing anything I do not have to do. I am beat, I feel 20 years older now. Renee I will research that drug you told me about. Also the yams are a definite no go with the nutritionist. Only sweet potatoes. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Nutritional data for yams, -

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2726/2



Nutritional data for sweet potatoes -

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2668/2

[infoviewer]

Hey Patti: I hope you have a better result with your cooked food for Tipper today. I guess the human food just upset he tummy a little, probably have to go real slow. Everything upset CoCo's stomach, medicine, food, going to the doc, guess they are just liike humans. Have to be on the same routine all the time. I am sure you will get it worked you take such good care of Tipper and all the other babies. Guess the mouse came in out of the cold, we had one too, but set a trap and it is gone, which I hate to kill any of God's creatures, but they do carry diseases. Have a great holiday season with your babies and stay warm. It is cold in Nashville also about 17 today I think. Love, JoAnne

[Renee]

Hey, very interesting on the difference in the nutrient value for the yam vs. sweet potato!! I use them interchangeably most of the time.

Good luck Patti with Tipper's poor belly. It could be the food, or it could be the supplements. Some dogs react to those supplements more than the food. I hope you are able to work it out and keep warm! It's about 10 degrees here right now.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I have a really naughty girl n my hands form no walking. She is trying to dig holes in the carpet, bulldozing Toby's toys, and barking at me like she is annoyed with me. Little does she know this is for her own good. She seems to be hungrier than usual today, don't know maybe had something to do with the food yesterday. She seem to be doing pretty good on 28mg once in the morning. She has not had any hunger fits lately so I think we will let this go for a while and see if she starts up again. I have so many bottles of Trilostane and packs of Vetoryl from changing doses this is ridiculous. I hope we get at her correct dosage soon. Blessings
Patti

[flynnandian]

i hope tipper feels better now. if you are thinking of selling the vetoryl, i will buy it from you. my dog uses about the same dose as your tipper does. take care of the both of you. gr iris.

[Renee]

Well, if she's being naughty, she's probably feeling pretty good. :D

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Tipper has full on diarrhea and I am stopping her new diet that caused all this. I will not be giving her Vetoryl in the morning either. I just gave her some kibble with rice and small amount of chicken. I do not want to jump into meds for the diarrhea before I see if this will help her tonite. This dog has enough problems, I could kick myself for this. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

Hi Everyone:
Tipper has full on diarrhea and I am stopping her new diet that caused all this. I will not be giving her Vetoryl in the morning either. I just gave her some kibble with rice and small amount of chicken. I do not want to jump into meds for the diarrhea before I see if this will help her tonite. This dog has enough problems, I could kick myself for this. Blessings
Patti

After all that work cooking too!!

I am ssoooo sorry to read this. Poor girl. :(

[addy]

awww Patti, I am so sorry that happened after your high hopes and hard work.

I hope Tipper feels better real soon sweetie.

[flynnandian]

don't blame yourself, you did the cooking with tippers interest in mind!!! may be the diarrhea has another cause? i hope it will get better soon.

[doxiesrock912]

Canned pumpkin helps Daisy a lot when she has diarrhea.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well is was a really bad nite for Tipper to day the least. I have never seen her so sick. I took her out 22 times to go potty she has the diarrhea so bad. She could hardly take it any more. SHe also threw up twice. That is from just a little of the new diet. the nutritionist prefers you give the new diet all at once, can you imagine what this would have done to her if I had done that. My whole yard is covered in this. It had been 12 hours so she got up screaming for food. I gave her a small portion of rice and chicken. Tipper has never had the diarrhea that I can remember, and to get it like this. I cried all nite, her gastro noises were unbelievable and had to hurt her. I feel terrible causing this on her after she already has enough problems. I spent all my money on this nutruitionist , food and supplements in an effort to help my girl, I feel horrible and have nothing to show for all this. Never mind the work I did as I don't care about that, I would do anything for her. Pumpkin does not help her as she will not eat it, does anyone know what I can use if it starts up. I am trying to keep her hydrated, and will not give Vetoryl or any supplements today. I know some vets use Kaopectate so I do not know how much to use either. My vet is not in today so I am relying on my family here for help. I have never seen my poor Tipper so sick, This is awful. I am exhausted to day the least. Tipper is at my feet resting right now. Poor Toby we had him up all nite too from all the racket. I will never give her this food ever. I am going back to her dog food with chicken I need to get the amounts right to help her lose weight and then a maintenance amount so she does not gain. She has eaten veggies, she has eaten sweet potatoes and all the other stuff in the diet except the buckwheat groats. So they had to be what caused this. Never, nerve again. I though I was doing what I should to help Tipper, I could really kick myself. She is so tired she is snoring now. She got so weak last nite I was ready to call the vet at home. My old adage comes back to me about only trust yourself. Well I am glad I did trust only myself as if I would have given her all this food at once she probably would have ended up in the emergency some where. She does not deserve this she has been such a good companion to me I am still crying thinking about her agony last nite. Blessings
patti

[beaglemom3]

Oh Patti, I am so sorry to hear this but PLEASE don't beat yourself up. You were trying to do the best for Tipper, you had no way of knowing this would happen and you were so WISE to give her just a small amount. I am sure Tipper will rebound from this now that it seems to be out of her system. When my boys had diarrhea for some reason a few years ago our vet gave us FortiFlora probiotic to give them in their food. Prayers Tipper feels much better today! HUGS Patti

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Patti !!
I am just reading the other posts after getting Freckles settled. It was so nice of you to post to our thread after your awful night.

Poor Tipper! I have done the same thing for Freckles, trying to give her proper food. I too had such reactions. You know I just stopped all meds and gave her just chicken and rice. Freckles also refuses pumpkin but will eat sweet potatoes, which work the same. Work on keeping her hydrated today. That is most important. No food until at least dinner time and not a lot at once. Plan to give her smaller dinner and then maybe same amount later in the evening. Her insides have to settle down. I put water in the food bowl with the rice and chicken so I know she will get some hydration.
She may beg for food but I would be afraid it would cause more upset tummy. It looks like she emptied out all the disagreeable food, so her tummy needs to rest. I am glad to hear she is resting as she is exhausted as are you. Sleep is always the best thing, so let her sleep. I know when I have been sick like Tipper, I am totally trashed for the day.

Keep us posted on Tipper. Yes, always trust your Mommy instinct. It is always right! That goes for 2 legged and 4 legged kids!

{{{hugs}}}
Louise

[Dianaww]

Patti you did the BEST for Tipper, you would NEVER of done it if you had known this would happen. You remember we took Teddy off his diet that had been the ONLY one he could have out of 12, and he was SO ILL with the bleeding guts and pancreatitis, and not being able to keep 1 teaspoon of food down, He didn't drink for a week almost, or eat for a week, and we got him better by slowly introducing his old food, like you are going to do, I think sometimes when they are ill, and a lot is going on inside them, they can't always tolerate a change in diet no matter how little we give them, we felt like you we really did, we wished we hadn't changed it, but we, like you did it out of love for our baby, as you did for Tipper. Don't beat yourself up, look at WHY you did it BECAUSE YOU LOVE HER SO MUCH, you would never ever ever do anything to upset her. Much love to you both Diana & Teddy xxx

[My sweet Ginger]

Oh, Patti, that was truly awful what you both had gone through the night.:( I hope she will get better soon.

Here is what I used do when one of my babies (my children that is) had diarrhea when they were little. In a small pot boil water at least a good few minutes with some rice in it (maybe a couple of table spoons) and make a very dilute ricewater and strain the whole thing through a strainer and just give her the ricewater.
I think you will need to wait some time even giving her any water to calm her stomach down first and then start with a small amount of water (no solid food at all) if she can take it. Little at a time is the main thing I believe. I know she needs water constantly but what good is it if she doesn't keep it down so go slow and try not to get too anxious about getting any kind of food into her stomach any time soon, k?
I don't know if you will try this ricewater but if you do I hope that will work for poor Tiper. I feel so terrible for her.:( Big hugs. Song.

[Tina]

Patti, I am so sorry Tipper became so sick with the new diet. I know how awful you feel, but you were trying to do what is best for her. I wonder if you started too quick rather than a very slow transition? Or it could be that there is just something in the new diet that she is not able to tolerate for whatever reason. Jasper's stomach and GI system has become very sensitive and it seems like anything can upset it very easily. It is always baby steps with any kind of change for him.

I just have a second to post but wanted to say that with the frequency and amount of Tippers diarrhea, and especially since she vomited also, I think she should go for at least a 12 hour period with no food, as long as she is drinking water ok. I agree with Louise that you need to focus on her hydration, and give her gut a rest from food. My own vet has recommended this for Jasper at times when things were really bad, and has said that they can even go for 24 hours without food with no harm, as long as they are drinking. The important thing now is to keep her hydrated and settle things down in her GI tract.

When you do start back with food, it should be a bland diet, chicken/rice or hamburger/rice only, and start in very small amounts. Just make sure she is drinking water. Poor Tipper, I bet you are both exhausted. Hopefully things will settle down for her today. I will check back in later after nursing home rounds. :rolleyes:

Big hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Thank you all for your help and thinking of my Tipper. She is here with me looking out the window and wants out in the snow. WE have 6 inches, and it is really coming down all day now. It is only 28 however so she will not be walking at all, especially after last nite. Well I have given her rice water and rice, small amount of chicken, and slippery elm combined in it. She ate it all and is not showing any signs of distress. She was so hungry. Now we will see if this helps her. I have also given her water via syringe. Toby is worn out too as he was up most of the nite watching us go in and out of the house. It was terrible because I had to stop and put a coat and shoes on and she had to go so bad the one time I just did not even put on a coat and she just made it outside. She would lay beside me and tap me with her paw when she had to go out. I sort of knew by the rumbling of her tummy. I never ever want her to go thru that again. I ran her dog food down as she was going to be eating this new diet and had to hurry and call Amazon and order some. They felt so bad about Tipper they gave me free 2 day shipping. I don't care what anyone says about them monopolizing the market, they have always treated me very well and I have never had a problem if there was something wrong with my order. So monopolize on! It will be here in 2 days so she will eat chicken and rice until then. I think she may have lost the lb she needed to get off last nite, and that is no joke, this poor baby suffered. I am so glad I trusted my instinct and only gave her a little of that food. Thank God for that! I am exhausted so just watching Tipper rest. I may walk her around the yard a few times and get her some fresh air. Blessings
Patti

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Just want to make a comment about using beef after an upset tummy.

I had been giving Freckles chicken and rice and all was finally good. She loved it, even with the water I put in it. Then I decided to treat her to boiled hamburger 92% lean. She loved it but threw up dinner within a half an hour. I am not risking that again, even if it was because she ate too fast(typical beagle).

I am sticking to chicken and rice. I have slowly added carrots and a few peas and some apple. I thought that was the problem this morning when it turned out to be Vestibular Disease, but I am going back to just chicken and rice until the nausea is resolved.

She has been taking her daily medicine on a piece of plain rice cake with a dab of organic peanut butter with no tummy problems.

I hope Tipper is doing OK so far today.

Louise

[Freckles#3/Louise]

Patti, we were posting at the same time.
So happy to hear that Tipper is much better today.

Louise

[goldengirl88]

Yes I saw that Louise! Thanks for thinking of Tipper. I was looking at Freckles pictures, what a beautiful girl she is.

[My sweet Ginger]

Patti, did you rinse Tipper's bum with warm (as warm as she can take) water!? No better medicine than toasty warm water soaking (rinse) when my kids had diaper rashes. I can only imagine how Tiper's bum must feel after all night of diarrhea. Burning, raw and sore I'm just guessing.:(:( I sometimes do this for Ginger.
Just stand her in the tub and run hot(not too hot) water the best you can holding her tail up with your one hand only for a few minutes.
It will give her a lot of relief for her burning and soreness. Just a thought. What we wouldn't do for our babies.;)

[goldengirl88]

Song:
Thank you for that help. Yesterday when I went to wipe her butt she really cringed so I know it hurt her. She is so much better right now, but I am nervous waiting for the first time she has to go. Blessings
Patti

[Renee]

I imagine it was the buckwheat groats that did it. I am shocked a nutritionist would recommend a grain like that for a homecooked diet!! Sounds like she is basing her diets on Dr Pitcairn's diets. While I enjoyed his book, and it has a lot of useful information in it, I believe his diets are outdated and I would not use them. I have to wonder about the supplements too, and if she had those off as well.

Please don't beat yourself up so much. You were trying to help, and following the advice of a nutritionist who was supposed to help make things better, not worse. I have been though this myself with past fosters.

The problem with beef & chicken is that it can make a lot of dogs sick because of over exposure (they consume these two proteins more than any other). My pug is doing really well on ground beef... but, that doesn't work for everyone. Red meat is richer in fat (not a bad thing), than poultry, so a sensitive stomach will react to it.

Pepcid AC and pepto are safe for dogs, but you'll want to check they don't react with any of her other medications.

[frijole]

My understanding is you want Pepcid AC not regular Pepcid. Learned it years ago on this board but don't ask me why because I have long forgot that. :o:) Kim

[Renee]

My understanding is you want Pepcid AC not regular Pepcid. Learned it years ago on this board but don't ask me why because I have long forgot that. :o:) Kim

Right you are Kim! :) I'll edit my post to say Pepcid AC, in case someone else reads it.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
It is 4:30 pm here and Tipper has eaten twice today but is looking for her kibble. She has not pooped yet, I am nervous when she does that it will diarrhea, but I think if it was she would have done that by now. She took nap and I lay down beside her. Looking at her skeletal boney head, and all the places she has lost muscle and fat make me cry. She has this big tummy as fat as a barrel at her ribs and nothing anywhere else. I pray to God every nite that someone some where will find a cure for this disease. Everyone on here has had to suffer thru this terrible journey, and it should not be this way. These dogs are so loyal to a fault, and they only bring us enjoyment and love, how can this happen to such wonderful creatures???
We have about 8 inches of snow and no sign of it letting up. The trees and evergreens are beautiful tipped in white. I took Tipper around the yard a few times, but she wants to roll in the snow and play, and that will have to wait for another day. I just realized how fragile and vulnerable she was last nite, it's pathetic to watch this. Toby has been napping off and on as he is tired also. The cats are going to have to forego playtime tonite as I am beat. I barely made it thru the day. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Oh Patti poor Tipper, don,t beat yourself up you were only going on the best advice given. I hope she is much better this evening. I,ll give you another tip on sore butts as you know woody,s had one for 9 weeks now. The hospital told me to use a cold ice pack, like a frozen bag of peas wrapped in a towel or something like that and just hold it at his butt for as long as he can stand it, it will take any swelling down inside and out and will also reduce any swelling and heat involved. Also if cleaning dirty butts never wipe as this could spread fecal matter causing infection inside you should use boiled water cooled and dab the butt, sorry that,s like teaching you to suck eggs isn,t it, Woody hates having his cleaned but does love when the ice pack comes out the freezer he will stand and push his little bum into it and you can see the relief on his face.

[flynnandian]

from the other side of the world i wish you and tipper a good night sleep. it sounds well that she wanted to play in the snow again. my experience is that it can take a day or 2 to see poop again, since she emptied her complete bowl. we use something called finidiar from the vet.

[doxiesrock912]

Patti,

It may be a day or two before Tipper has a bowel movement. This happens to Daisy after she has a bought of diarrhea.

[My sweet Ginger]

Take it slow, Patti. Do not rush with food yet. Her stomach is still sensitive. A little at a time.
Just try to focus on how much she is being loved by you and know that that's all she wants from you and you are doing your best to help her in every possible way, above and beyond. She only wants you and your love. Aww, may be she might want some foods also these days from what I read.:p You are an awesome mom.;) Song

[Trixie]

Patti,
I am so sorry to hear what happened with Tipper! A few years ago we had a terrible nightime bout just like that I know how horrible and distressing it is for both dog and mom!
Tipper may not poop again for a day or two while her system is recovering, that's really normal after such a bad gastro flare up.
At least you know this was a dietary issue and not an internal problem. I would stay with the bland rice/chicken and bring back her usual foods slowly and gradually, you probably know that already.
Hoping you and all your babies are having a restful sleep tonight!

Barbara

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I am posting late today as I am so fatigued. Tipper got up at 12 and 3am. She had to go, it was slightly formed the first time and then watery the second. I am so lucky she wakes me and I don't know how she holds it for me to get up and put a coat on, but she does. I gave her slippery elm yesterday and today and if it is not better tomorrow to the vet she goes. We will get this stopped. Just plain rice and chicken for her, she is getting frustrated with it she wants her kibble. I feel terrible like a train wreck. I am taking her in the bathroom with me and taking a shower. I was afraid to do it before as she would have to go out. Lots of dog would just go on the floor, but Tipper will not do that, she has not peed on the floor during this cushings either she waits to go out. She is my wonderful girl and I am so thankful to have her with me. I knew yesterday was not the end of the runs as she had a really bad bout with this. It messed her system up really bad. We have about 9 inches of snow and it is still snowing, it snowed all nite long. Today is lake effect snow. It is absolutely beautiful out. I had hope of putting on the dogs snow suits and taking pictures, but I think it is too cold for Tipper. I may put them on in the house and take some if Tipper lets me!. Thank you all for caring about my girl, this has really shaken me seeing her so distressed. Blessings
Patti

[addy]

Oh Patti, I agree with Tina, a twelve hour fast and then small amounts of the chicken and/or rice food, inching your way up each day. Her system needs to rest after all of that. I have always done that with Zoe and it works best for her so hopefully will work for Tipper too. She may need some days of metronidazole as well, it can help with inflamation.

My heart goes out to you, I know how hard that is.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well Tipper has had a small amount of rice and chicken. She was crying for her food so much I had to give her some. She is starved and I bet she lost a lb. I know the fast is good but she is starving. If she is not better in the morning we will be seeing the vet, as she has suffered enough already. She was really bored today and started throwing toys up in the air, and beating them up really bad while looking to see if I was watching. She has made her point that she is hungry and bored. The wind is really strong here now and it is dropping the temperature. I hope if Tipper goes tonite she does not have the runs. I took care of her butt today as I know it was sore. Keep your fingers crossed that we have seen the last of the diarrhea. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Aw poor Tipper I hope she feels better soon. They certainly have a way of guilty tripping us when they are bored and hungry, Woody does the same.

I hope the temperature rises its been rainy and windy here all day, but Woody still went out but not for long :)

[TandKNaskedov]

Patti, it hope she feels better soon.

[flynnandian]

bored and hungry sounds good in tippers case. looks to me as if she is feeling better. sleep well!!

[My sweet Ginger]

She is so expressive of herself and smart, isn't she? That is cute.
Ginger never does that, never. She is so submissive with me and even a pushover at times with my other dogs. She is just so sweet, not an ounce of meanness in her. Never demands anything unlike Stella who is crazy wild and so demanding and loud.:o we still don't know what breed she is.:eek:
Regarding her butt, just keep washing there until it gets better as the trace of diarrhea is what's causing the soreness I believe. Maybe a few times a day. I think she will get better by tomorrow if there's no more diarrhea tonight and I really hope it's behind her now. She has suffered too much already. Kisses.

[molly muffin]

Checking in on your and Tipper the Ripper. :) I know her tummy is feeling icky, but she herself seems to be feeling pretty good. That is good so hopefully this diarrhea will be a thing of the past. I know how frustrating and scary it can be when they have that.

We have a lot of snow here too. :( We'll be going to get molly tomorrow morning and then I'll work frome home the rest of the day. I always try to work from home the first day that molly comes home from boarding as she can get a real attitude on that first day, but if I am here with her she seems to do much better and settle back in fine.

hugs,

Sharlene and molly muffin

[spdd]

Glad to hear that Tipper is at least showing boredom. That's a good sign. Hope the diarrhea is gone today. Another trip to the vet today should not be happening. You need a break from all of this.

Freezing here, lots of snow but I think Sharlene got hit harder then us and we are about an hour away from each other. It's about time Toronto got hit harder then us up here in the snow belt. :D

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Thanks for checking in on my girl I appreciate it. Early this morning she got up with a tummy ache. I hurried and put on my coat and took her out, I was waiting for diarrhea, but she was just wanting grass to eat, and it is deep with snow. After several attempts of her sticking her head thru it to get grass she peed. No poop thank God. So I brought her in and gave her some chicken. When her stomach gets sick like this she must have food or it will not stop. She was ok in about 20 minutes. This morning I gave her 1/2 of the rantadine for acid that the IMS told me to use. She is bored and laying at my feet snoring. Last nite she had a really congested sound- remember she has had no Vetoryl for a few days and the cortisol is creeping up I guess. Like I said when uncontrolled she really makes this noise. I also noticed mucus in the corners of both of her eyes this morning. I will give her an antihistamine later as she has just had her Ursodiol now. I am not wanting to stress her out at the vets. He is in until Wednesday so I may wait it out until tomorrow to see if she goes potty ok. I have not heard from the nutritionist yet so I am waiting to hear from her. It is about 7 degrees here this morning, and no walking for Tipper and Toby again. I have to take Toby Thursday for a hair trim before they get so busy for Christmas. I have been keeping his hair shorter than I used to because it is easier to keep up with. If Tipper is in a good mood I may try her snowsuit on her and take her picture. She may think she is going to walk then so that will not be good. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Glad Tipper is feeling a little better. Woody is the same if he goes to long without food he eats grass and once fed he is fine. My vet called it reflux, where the acid in the tummy comes back up and eating grass soothes it for them. I always feed woody a little something at bedtime to see him through the night as this is usually when it happens to him and fingers crossed it has worked for many years for him. Maybe you could try that with Tipper.

Would love to see Tipper in her snow suit :D

[goldengirl88]

Tracy:
I do have to give Tipper something every nite at bedtime too. That is funny that they both have that issue. I am calling the vet and making an appointment to get her electrolytes checked after this two day stuff with the diarrhea I don't need something happening to her from me not wanting to take her, but she gets so stressed and I was trying to avoid that. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

If Squirt's breakfast is late, she is apt to vomit a bit of bile. I often give her a treat when we first wake up to help prevent this. I think it's just from her tummy being empty as she has done this all her life.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I got on here to tell all of you I am taking Tipper to the vets at 3:40. I have gotten her this far and I am not letting something happen to her now over a vet fee. I will just not pay a bill too bad!. She just had a solid poop I am so happy. With the Cushings and her heart especially, even though I have checked her and hydrated her I need to know in black and white that her electrolytes are not out of balance before starting the Vetoryl tomorrow. I will talk to him about her breath too and the dental cleaning. I have a few more lumps to show him also, might as well get it done while I am paying a fee. I am just sick at my stomach learning Woody collapsed again. God help them I am praying for them both. Poor Tracy she has had enough. Blessings
Patti

[spdd]

Yay Tipper... solid poops are good :)- I'm thinking about about Tracy and Woody too... such a scare!!

[flynnandian]

how did tipper do at the vet? everything ok i hope.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I can hardly even think today I am so worried for Woody. This ss awful Tipper has not been to the vet yet we don't go for 2 more hours. I will let you all know what he says. Pray for Woody and Tracy everyone.
Blessings
Patti

[Mel-Tia]

Hello you

Hoping it will be ok for Tracy, we get so attached to these little fur babies, hate to read something has happened.

Good news re Tippers poop :D. Hope all her tests come back ok later

Sending you a tight hug
Mel
Xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Thank you Mel I am always grateful to hear from you. Hope you and Boyce are doing well. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I got an email from the nutritionist and she is going to formulate a better healthier diet using the chicken I give Tipper and her dog food and some herbs and supplements. That is so much better for me as I am never wanting to see my Tipper go thru what she did ever again. She really suffered. I have her all cleaned up and teeth brushed for her vet appointment and got her pretty silver coat with the sparkles on and fur hood for her to wear. I am hoping the blood comes back good, and I am having everything checked at once I might as well instead of her suffering thru this again. I am also having the Reticulocytes checked. I will have pieces of mind knowing if her electrolytes are all ok as this was an extreme bout of diarrhea. I am on pins and needles waiting to hear something on Woody. Blessings
Patti

[Mel-Tia]

Me and Boyce are ok thanks for asking.

Glad she will formulate a new diet, I figured she would be good as Leslie recommended her but pleased this is the case as I know you only ever try your best for your girl and that diarrhoea must have been tough on both of you, last thing you needed was another bill to rework the diet!

Hope Tracy gets back with some news soon, it's 7pm here now

Mel
Xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Yes me too, I am so fond of Woody and Tracy has had it really rough the last few weeks. Stay safe and warm Mel BIG HUGS.

[Woodydog]

Hi Patti- Bless you for thinking and praying for me and Woody. I have updated his thread. It has been a horrible day, I really did think I was going to lose him today, but he fights on.

How did Tipper get on at the vets? Again thank you for your prayers

Tracy & Woody

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well we are back from the vets and Tipper is larger than a barrel. They gave her Sub Q Fluids as he said she had 5% dehydration. Charged me 75.00 for something that costs a few dollars to buy. I have done it before to one of my cats years ago, and could have done this if I had the bag etc. We discussed the teeth and he said he would have to use something special that is fast acting and fast awakening on Tipper and said she does need her teeth done. I will have to wait until the tumor and her heart are checked out before I can even begin to consider this. More to think about. The nutritionist told me I am way underfeeding Tipper and she should never be gaining weight on what she eats a day. She told me I need a complete thyroid panel done and have it sent to Jean Dodds. Is anyone familiar with this? She said the vets miss things a lot of times on their tests. All we need is more problems right? No wonder Tipper is starving all the time, she really is! I guess I will get into all of that with the vet tomorrow. Lots of unanswered questions. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Dr. Jean Dodds is a renown expert in animal thyroid issues, here is her link: http://www.hemopet.org/

Hugs, Lori

[goldengirl88]

Lori:
Thank you for the help. I had heard her name and wasn't sure of her specialty. I appreciate the help so I can get this done right.

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
Well we were up again last nite. The vet gave Tipper so much fluid she gained 2lbs. She had to go pee all nite long. While I was up I was researching the information Song found out from the neurologist about Ginger. The focal seizures just made we research them. I mentioned to the vet and the IMS about this stuff Tipper does at nite while sleeping and asked if it could be seizures. I was shocked to see her behavior repeated by these dogs with focal seizures. Everything I have been telling on the forum was in front of me. The eye twitching, the facial twitches, the legs going etc. Tipper does most of the behavior I witnessed. So now I am wondering if the term labeled tremors as a side effect by Dechra is in reality focal seizures. If anyone would know I am sure it would be a neurologist which is where Song went. They can be caused by brain tumors, brain lesions, and medications. So by controlling the cortisol could the Vetoryl cause brain lesions? By controlling the cortisol does Vetoryl have some residual effect on the brain? These are in other words messed up electrical impulses from the brain. Remember when I said when I held Tipper's legs I could feel something like an electrical current running thru them? A DR. said this can start in one place and go to others. That is how it did with Tipper. She never had this until taking Vetoryl. It started in her legs, then her side would ripple, then her eye twitched badly, then her face, then her stomach contracting in and out. I am asking my vet to consult someone on this. I am 99% sure this is what she has causing all this. That is why when I wake her, it stops as her brain is awake. Also the nutritionist informed me that Tipper is not getting her nutritional requirements with the amount she is being fed. She said with what I feed her she is only getting 360 calories and should be losing weight. She said she should be getting around 500 to maintain her weight. So there is some metabolic problem here thyroid or other. I am going to have to get a sample to Jean Dodds and see what is going on here. I am concerned about these two issues affecting her current state if health so I need to get on this asap. I have already sent my vet a fax. I need to get someone in his office to establish an account with her to get his samples sent out. I feel like a zombie from no sleep, but I need to push on for my girl. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

Glad Tipper had a solid poop and seems to be over the worst of her bad tummy trouble. What did the nutritionist say about what happened to Tipper? Did she know what would have caused such a violent attack...was it the very quick diet change, the buckwheat groats, all of the above? Not sure I would do too much more than chicken/rice for a bit longer.
Trixie has had the sub-q fluids a few times...the weight gain from fluids will go away as soon as she absorbs and pees out all the liquid.
Did Tipper start having the tremors/seizures very soon after starting Vetoryl or did it come on after awhile. I have not seen this with Trixie. Once and awhile when she is sleeping on the couch she has some leg twitching...more like a doggie dream, like she's running...I put my hand on her and it seems to stop right away.
We are using Vetoryl for about 9-10 months now, but the first few months were very low dose. How long has Tipper been taking it now? How has she been without it these last few days? Do you notice the tremors stop while she's not taking it?

[beaglemom3]

I am so glad Tipper is better from her bout with her tummy problem. I hope you find the cause of the twitching or seizures. You are such a good mom! You will get o the bottom of all this soon, it sounds like. My prayers and thoughts are with you and Tipper. HUGS

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I sent the nutritionist some things that Tipper has eaten that maybe she can build on, as she just informed me that Tipper's dog food does have some grains that are worse than the brown rice she used to eat. So if the rice is healthier and she can eat it she can build something with that and the chicken and green beans and carrots she has eaten in the past with no problems. After hearing how little calories she is taking in and gaining weight it is imperative to get this straightened out. She does need some kibble at nite before bed though as many have said on here there dogs get an acidy stomach. I hope to hear from my vet on how soon we can do her blood and get it sent to Jean Dodd's. If she has an underactive thyroid that could account for the weight gain. So we shall see. In the mean time the healthiest diet that does not upset her is what she needs. No wonder she has been hungry all the time. The vet said she was eating too much, well I guess that is not true as she is eating too little. I am very concerned for her health so I need to get her straightened out here as soon as possible. Tipper has not eaten a lot of meats during her time. Mainly just chicken, so hopefully this will keep her happy and feeling full instead of being hungry all the time. I know if it was me being hungry all the time I would not like it one bit, so I can't expect her to do it either. I am just praying and waiting to hear some news on Woody. Hope everyone prays for him. Blessings
Patti

[flynnandian]

my ian had tremors [over his whole body] before using vetoryl instead of afterwards. they have gone since the day he got the vetoryl strange maybe? o, well there is one difference : he also got more foodmoments/ day since than because of the pills he needed. . he is on BARF his whole life and got only one big meal/day. those are the only things that changed: the vetoryl and more snacks. so far [on vetoryl for 4 weeks now] no more trembling.
i hope you will find the solution for tippers tremors.

[doxiesrock912]

Patti, more proof that each dog handles this disease so uniquely. Any time I've tried to change Daisy's food from Royal Canon it has not gone well and the IMS says not to change.

Praying that the combined vets and nutritionist can figure this out.
Hugs!

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
yes I am hopeful we can get Tipper straightened out here. I am glad to hear Woody is in good hands and that he gets along well with Emma. I am still hopeful with all these Dr.'s looking at Woody that he will get a miracle. Just keep praying everyone. Blessings
Patti

[Woodydog]

Patti regarding the thyroid my friend here in the uk was sure her dog had thyroid issues but the results and her vet said no. What she did was email the vets report to Jean Donaldson and she interpreted it and emailed it back to her and indeed her dog did have thyroid issues and us so much better. Just a thought if you can get your vet to do the bloods then you can email her direct with more info.

[addy]

Causes of Peripheral Vestibular Signs

Otitis interna, hypothyroidism, Idiopathic Vestibular Disease, Neoplasia, Congenital vestibular syndrome, and rickettsial (Rocky Mountain spotted fever or ehrlichiosis) diseases.

I wonder if some of the tremors could be associated with hypothyroidism, if Tipper has it. Just thinking since I know you are anxious about the tremors and seizures, etc.

[Renee]

Patti, I am glad the nutritionist is going to build on what Tipper can tolerate. The quality of the calories definitely matter, not just the quantity. She could be getting all the wrong stuff and essentially starving nutritionally, but putting on weight from the bad calories.

It's so hard to find that perfect balance!

[doxiesrock912]

Patti, if Tipper can tolerate veggies, carrots have a lot of sugar. Stick with green vegetables. Green beans are a favorite of Daisy's.

[molly muffin]

I think that what we always have to remember is that every dog is different and this includes the foods that agree and disagree with them. Medicines have to be tweaked and diets obviously do too.

I am sure that working with the nutritionist, you'll come up with something that works specifically with Tipper to give her the nutrition she needs daily and is tolerant for her tummy. It could be that because of the diet she has had for so long, that the first one just didn't work for her, or something disagreed with her.

Nothing has been easy with Tipper, so expect diet will be trial and error also. I am Sure though that you can figure this out Patti.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Everyone:
I tried and experiment with Tipper last nite as my vet thinks Tipper could have focal seizures also. I read where a Dr. wrote that sometimes melatonin will help with these. So I asked Leslie if it would be ok to do and she said yes. So I gave her one 3mg last night. I should preface this by saying the other time I gave her the one before the storm it took about 2 hours to start to work on her. So knowing what time she lays down I gave it to her 2 hours before. She did have some, but not as bad as they were. I have to say that she is doing this all thru the nite now not just when she falls asleep. So I was thinking maybe 3mg is not enough. Is a higher dosage safe or not??? This is why she is waking up so much. Her eye did not appear to twitch as much either, at least while I was awake. When I get up at various times during the nite to check her I have seen her doing this then that is how I know it goes on all nite and that is not good. Also I did read that the newest and safest drug Zonisamide can possibly cause liver issues and that scares me too. If I could get her to a safe mg of melatonin maybe it would stop this for the most part??? Addy I think Hypothyroidism could be a culprit, as there were many causes that were listed for these seizures. Tipper does also have vestibular disease. I keep going back to the fact that she never did this before Vetoryl though. She need the Vetoryl to go on, so I must figure out a balance of that and stopping these seizures all nite somehow. I also read they have the potential to happen more during the nite so that is why I am seeing this then. I know I do need to get her eating healthy, although I have to say that in comparison the other foods out there on the market I felt she was safer on the Newman's Own as it has never been recalled and is made from human grade organic chicken. The part about the 2 grains and sorghum is not good according to the nutritionist, so we need to build on what I know Tipper has already eaten and had no problems with. I am worried about her not having proper nutrition and having this disease, but want to use baby steps as I do not want her sick like she was again. She may just have a system that can be real touchy with things as she has had an allergic past history. Either way I must be especially careful not to upset the apple cart. I am waiting and praying to hear some news today on Woody as he is undergoing testing today. I hope he can keep his stress level down, it is so hard for them to be in a strange environment and try to act normal. I so wish the Dr.'s could have witnessed one of those episodes with Woody, and maybe it would have given them some kind of clue as to what is doing this. Tracy is a strong woman, I just hope all this stress does not get her down again, as I know how that works all to well. Blessings
Patti