My sweet boy Boriss

[Boriss McCall]

Hi All,
I am new here & my 8 almost 9 year old Boston Terrier "Boriss" is in the process of being tested for Cushing's. I am completely devastated & have cried every night since Sunday when the vet called to let me know we need to start the testing. His blood work came back high.

All of this is even more hard to handle because 4 weeks ago we lost our 12 year old Min-Pin Cleo. So, worrying about loosing another dog was the last thing I was prepared for & everything seems more hard to handle.
Boriss is the light of my life. I have never had a dog that has been so attached to me & me to him. I am beyond crushed!

The first signs we saw was he started wetting in the house. But, do to all the stress of my other dog being sick for a little while I didn't notice what was happening with him. I thought he was just reacting to her & then the loss of Cleo was hard on him.
Now he is more hungry than usual, wants to eat poop outside, thirsty & has an accident everyday in the house.
His symptoms are mild. The doctor feels like he is in the early stages.

We treated what we thought the peeing was just an bladder infection. but, when that cleared up & he was still having accidents the doctor wanted to test for Cushing's. So far we have done the initial blood work & right now his urine culture is in the lab waiting to see if anything grows.

But, now that I know what to look for I can see that things are not exactly right. Cushing's is such a weird disease. I bought a calendar yesterday to start marking his behavior so if & when he starts treatment I will have some sort of comparison.

I really got myself freaked out when I went online to figure out what the disease was before I even had a chance to talk to the vet. That night I literally cried myself to sleep. Everything I read pretty much told me my dog would die in 2 years.

Right now I am just trying to learn as much as I can & wrap myself around what is heading our way.

Boriss has always been the happiest dog. I do think he is still going thru a grieving period right now. He just does not seem like himself.

Once I get my results I will post my information. After reading a lot of the post on here it comforts me to know this does not have to mean the end. I pray...

I just want to make sure I decide on the right treatment & don't want other organs to be damaged.

Next week we are doing an all day test & a sonogram or whatever the test is called where they view all his glands & organs.

I just want him to live a happy.. long.. pain free life. He has brought me more joy than anything.

Thanks for all the tips & information. I am still "unrealistically" hoping these test come back negative. But, the signs point to Cushing's. If it is not cushing's than it scares me to think it could be something worse.

As you can see I am a ball of stress... It will be nice to have a support group & hopefully some happy stories of encouragement to read.

Thanks,
Amy & Boriss

[addy]

Hi and Welcome,

I understand how you are feeling, I pretty much had the same response. I am here to tell you that there is hope, there is always hope and my thread and some of the other threads are just complicated cases. Even with my Zoe's complications, she was diagnosed two years ago, May 2010, and she is still here.:):)

I am so glad you came here because we are very good at moral support and sharing experiences and knowledge.

Please post your results when you have them, it makes thing easier for our moderators and administrators.:):):)

We cant wait to learn more about sweet Boriss and get to know you both better.

So put Cushings in the drawer for the night, lock it up and dry your tears!!!!!

[frijole]

Amy, I am going to make you a very happy lady. :D:D:D:D:D Those articles you read are horse crap. :D

First off - the disease is hard to diagnose and often misdiagnosed so be sure to get copies of everything that is done test wises and post results here and we'll help decipher them. An ultrasound is a good move so glad you are having that done.

About cushing's. It is NOT a death sentence. Not even near the worst thing that could happen to your dog. My girl Haley was treated for 4 1/2 yrs and she died of old age, unrelated to cushings at the age of 16 1/2. She led a very normal and happy life.

Where things go wrong are when vets and/or owner are disengaged, inexperienced and careless. So you are doing the right thing by searching out help and understanding of what the disease is and how to treat it.

Key is having a vet with experience (real experience not just 'yeah I've treated lots of dogs blah blah') ... as you tell us your story and keep us updated we'll be able to tell if your vet is following established protocols for treatment. So just keep us updated.

There is NO rush to treat so take your time and get the diagnosis right and confirmed before starting on drugs. Do not fear and throw away the kleenex because you don't need them. You just need to get up to speed. Hang in there and know you are not alone ok????? Kim

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Addy.. I am so happy to hear your little Zoe is still around. :) The things that were posted on the web had me so scared out of my mind. My vet even told me it shortens their lifespan a bit. But, she told me to not look at the disease as a death sentence. I am trying to get my focus off the negative & get treatment going if he needs it.

The blood work results are like reading another language. I will try to post them now. :o

these are all the ones that were not normal.
ALB 4.2g/dL
ALKP 1172 U/L
BICARB 26 mEq/L
DBIL 0.0 mg/dl
IBIL O.O mg/dL
TBIL 0.0 mg/dL

Lab Comments: Ascn D7648733
SS L MN CANINE
RE: 281 HEMOLYSIS INDEX N
Index of N,+,++ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values.
RE: 282 LIPEMIA INDEX N
Index of N,+,++ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values.

The urine test on the same day
color yellow
clarity clear
SP Gravity 1.009
Gluclose negative
ketones negative
bilirubin negative
blood trace
PH 7.5
protein negative
urob normal
bacteria none seen hpf
crystals none seen hpf
casts none seen hpf
wbc 0-2 hpf
epi cell rare (0-1) hpf
mucus none seen
RBC 2-5 HPF

Lab comments: ascn:D7668791
2 RU G/RU MN CANINE
RE: 900 COLLECTION METHOD CYSTOCENTESIS

These are the only results I have so far. The culture should be back by Friday & the rest of the test will be done the end of next week.

The good thing is I do have dog insurance. I am just crossing my fingers that all this is covered & not considered breed specific or some loop hole like that.

Thanks so much for all your help, guidance & kind words..
xoxo
Amy & Boriss

[molly muffin]

Hi Amy and welcome to you and Boriss.

First off, I think we all turned on the water works when we first heard the word cushings in regards to our beloved ones. I did, heck, I still do. Come to think of it, just reading the threads here can get those tears going. (I think we should all invest in Kleenex stock, really!)

It's not a death sentence by any means from everything I've read on here and frankly, I'll take the experience of those who are living with it, have lived with it, any day of the year over random websites that just scare the bejebes out of me and offer nothing.

Can you post what the ranges are with the lab results? Different labs will have different ranges, etc so that's a good thing to know.

I know it's scary. I'm in the same boat, we still don't have a confirmed diagnosis for my dog molly. One test positive, ultrasound Looks like cushings, next test says nope, not cushings. So just one day at a time.
What you can do is ready all about the various treatments (plenty of information on the forum here) what tests mean, what to look out for, etc, etc. It's a long journey and just getting to the right diagnosis can take awhile.

We're here any time at all that you want to have a chat about it. Day or night, eventually we all turn up.

It is so hard to have already have lost one of your cherished ones and I'm so sorry to hear that. :(

Hugs my dear, you have a fine group of people now to go on the journey With you,

Sharlene and the molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

I should have known better than reading all those things online. :eek:
Honestly I had never even heard of the disease until Sunday. So, it is ALL new to me.
Thanks so much for your encouraging words & it is nice to know that I have some control over taking care of my baby if he does end up having Cushing's. I am tired of seeing him beg at the food bowl for more. He thinks I am punishing him by not giving him more.
I think the endocrinologist I am starting with is really well informed.. but, hell who am I to say cause I have a LOT to learn. But, she is very caring & took time to hangout with Boriss & I at the appointment. I think she sat in the room & talked to us just observing & explaining for an hour & half. She is too has a Boston Terrier & knows how dramatic & hard to read some of them can be. :p

I will include the ranges the lab used for these results.

these are all the ones that were not normal.
ALB 4.2g/dL Range 2.5-4.0
ALKP 1172 U/L Range 10-150
BICARB 26 mEq/L Range 17-24
DBIL 0.0 mg/dl Range 0.0-0.2
IBIL O.O mg/dL Range 0-0.3
TBIL 0.0 mg/dL Range 0.0-0.4

here are a few I forgot to add in the other post.
BASO 0% Range 0-1
EOS 12% Range 2-10
HGB 17.2 g/dL Range 12-18
MCHC 36.8 g/dL Range 32-36
ABS BASO 0/uL Range 0-100
ABS EOS 1260/uL Range 100-1250

Lab Comments: Ascn: D7648733
SSL MN CANINE
RE: 3034 REMARKS
REMARKS
SLIDE REVIEWED MICROSCOPICALLY

I think that is everything for now... Until the next round of test.

I am glad to know this isn't something I need to make a quick decision on.
One other question I forgot to ask the vet. Is it okay for him to have normal high energy play time if he is feeling frisky? Running like a wild boy at the dog park? Should I be more careful with him?

I already give him glucosamine & salmon oil. But, it looks like from things I have read on here I should add some more supplements to make sure his liver stays healthy.

Again I am SO happy I ran across this group. It eases my mind so much more. Just waiting on all the results & running the test has been overwhelming.

Thanks!:):):):):)

[molly muffin]

I think that if he is feeling frisky and wants to run and play then by all means, that is what he should do.

I'm adding a liver supplement with milk thistle next week. Hoping it will help her liver values which have flip flopped up and down since march.

I should add salmon oil too. (thanks for mentioning that one)

I think you are continuously learning with this thing and nothing ever seems to stay the same. I certainly hadn't heard it until the first time they tested molly for it. :( horrid word I refuse to even call the pillows on the sofa cushins now!

Hugs, Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

Ha.. Sharlene.. Thanks for making me laugh.

Question..
Is it normal for Boriss's symptoms to mainly appear in the evening? It seems as of late he is doing good all day. Mainly normal everything. Then around 7pm he has his first accident in the house.. seems a little more hungry & thirsty.

[Bgoods]

Ha.. Sharlene.. Thanks for making me laugh.

Question..
Is it normal for Boriss's symptoms to mainly appear in the evening? It seems as of late he is doing good all day. Mainly normal everything. Then around 7pm he has his first accident in the house.. seems a little more hungry & thirsty.

Is he in an out a lot during the day? From my limited experience, I don't think it is 'normal' to only exhibit the symptoms at night. It is normal, however, that we notice them more at night. If he is in and out a lot during the day, then do you note that his is urinating more frequently during the day? With our pup Rolo, it always seemed he had to go more at night, but I think much of that was due to us being more mindful of him needing to go out when we were not going out. Just a thought.

Just to reiterate what many on here have said. Cushings is not a death sentence. Don't believe everything you read and pay attention to the dates! In our case, it is not the Cushings that is taking our pup, it is the tumor that is causing the Cushings. We can and have treated his Cushings, but in his case, we are only treating a symptom.

Get to know your vet. Question, question, question. When you don't understand, question. When you do understand, question. We developed a very close relationship with our vet through Rolo's care. Our vet may be an exception, but I don't really think so. Prior to Rolo having symptoms, we took him in for wellness and shots. Those aren't frequent enough to develop a close relationship. However, the more she saw us, the more we interacted. As she saw how interested we were, she demonstrated a huge willingness to help us in so many ways. Sometimes even meeting us back at the office after she had already closed for the day. Maybe that is not so common, but the more you interact and talk about treatment/options, the more you are going to get to know your vet. Don't hesitate to ask for more info or options, they are professionals. If my vet didn't engage, then I would seek another vet.

Denamarin is a liver supplement we have given Rolo when his liver values were through the roof.

http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/vet/products/Denamarin.aspx

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks for responding.
I just now was able to read all about Rolo. My heart is so sad for you. Rolo seems so sweet. You have done so much for your baby. I know you love him so much.. I am so sorry..:(

Your headache information was very insightful. I just forwarded it to my husband. It might be easier for him to be more objective than myself. I seem to read signs into everything right now... My brain is just a little too hard to keep reigned in at the moment.

We work during the day so Boriss & our other dog Pearl are inside all day together lounging on the sofa. :p
I try to come home on my lunch break when I can & spend an hour with them. So, other than first thing in the morning he sometimes doesn't go out to potty until 4:30. Unless lunch break is possible. So, every afternoon when I get home from work I have been searching around the house for accidents. He usually has certain spots he likes to go to. But, he might have found a new spot I just haven't been able to discover. He normally goes on the wood floor & that is easy to find. But, maybe he moved to the carpet & I just haven't found it yet. :rolleyes:

But, it seems like his thirst doesn't pick up until later. I have been documenting everything this week.

I guess I need to wait until after next weeks ultra sound to start the denamarin? Or is this good for all dogs? whatever I give Boriss i usually give to Pearl as well. They both take the glucosamine & the salmon oil.

Thanks for your advice & big hugs to your family & Rolo.
xo

[Boriss McCall]

One more question.. or maybe a lot more..

Is anyone in the Dallas, TX recommended for treatment?

My first visit has been with Sally Purcell, DVM, DACVIM
with Hillside Vet Clinic

[molly muffin]

I have read that a behavioral symptoms of cushings is a disturbance in the sleep/wake pattern. That dogs can be more lethargic, sleeping much of the day and then be awake, restless in the evenings.

I wonder if that could be a case with Boriss, especially if they are alone during the day, so they sleep, you come home and it's like everything kicks in.

Molly is like that sometimes when I've been at the office all day. Right now, I come home from work and she has a heck of a lot more energy than I do. I was starting to wonder if they diagnosed the wrong creature. :p:p:p:p

Some of the others who have used Denamarin will pop by and can tell you more about that. My vet here in Canada didn't know anything about it. (grumble and muble, they give TWO pills for what just Denamarin can do) :mad:

Hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Oh Good!!! You are meeting people, feeling your way around the forum, this is what gets us through,:each other:D:D;)

Things will not be so scary soon. ;);)

Always remember to breathe;);):D:)

Give those sweet puppies hugs and kisses for me!!!

And yes, I wish I woould have taken that dang growth of of Zoe two years ago but all the darn vets said "oh we wait until their a problem":eek::eek:

Why? I keeping thinking why?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Growl!!!:D:D:D:D

[Boriss McCall]

I know right.. should have.. could have.. would have.. It is hard not to beat ourselves up. I have just left Boriss's alone because it doesn't bother him. But, if it starts cracking it will be a whole new ballgame.

I have been trying to read back stories on people & their dogs on the forum. Some of the ones I have read scare me to death & almost put me in panic mode. But, I have to remember I am reading months worth of things that have happened. I have been really trying to tell myself if he does have Cushing's it will be like a healthy dog... you just solve the problems as they arise & work with the vet. It just may take a little bit longer. But, it does break my heart to read some of these stories & know how much people & their pups are suffering. :(:(

I will post new information as it comes. Tomorrow I should be getting the urine culture results & next week will be the other test.

We leave for vacation on Monday for 3 days. I hope he will be okay here with my friend. I guess the good thing is he still hasn't started medication if he ends up needing it. I would hate to leave that for someone else to worry about & chart changes.

Oh so much to think about & over analyze! :eek:

[frijole]

I used Denamarin and alot of others do as well. It is commonly prescribed for liver issues. The pills are chewables - think large HORSE sized treats. I couldn't get my dog to eat them so they were a pain for me... so I quit giving it and went back to milk thistle. I used it for both my dogs and am a believer. Just took the powder out of the capsule and poured over her food each meal. Simple.

Reading others threads is very helpful - but keep in mind there are different issues being addressed - some have adrenal cushings, others pituitary... and some are struggling to find out if its even cushings. Just know that the majority of cases are not extreme. Problems occur when people and/or vets are not actively engaged in the treatment and either the disease is misdiagnosed or too much drug is given.

You're ahead of the game already just by being here and reading. Keep asking questions and go have a great vacation... all will be fine. Kim

[TrishaC]

Never had pet insurance (http://www.petassure.com?src=bm) but I do have a plan with Pet Assure from my workplace....

[Boriss McCall]

I have never heard of Pet Assure. I will have to check into it. The insurance is still reviewing things. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Update on Boriss:

The vet just called me to let me know his Urine Culture came back all good. Which makes her even more lean towards the fact we are dealing with Cushings. I was really trying to stay positive that would not be the case. But, life is life sometimes..:mad:

We are starting his first test next Friday morning. The good thing is she is well aware of how much the testing meds are & doesn't use the entire bottle for a small dog & they save it for the dog during the loading process.

She also said she treats so many dogs with Cushing's that she ends up using it & just cutting the cost for small dogs. That made me feel better knowing she treats a large number of dogs with this disease.

She was glad I joined this group & is impressed with the things I have learned since I met her on Monday. She feels like my understanding is really going to help with his treatment if needed.

She seems to really know what she is doing. I like the fact that she came from Texas A&M. They have some really smart animal doctors. Several of my friends have taken their dogs to the university for hard to treat surgeries & what not.

I just wanted to thank ALL of you. Even if I haven't spoken to you I have read things on other people threads. This has all been so sudden & OVERWHELMING.. This forum has given me more comfort this week than any of you will know. ;)

I am still very very scared. My doctor said not too worry yet. A lot of dogs are treated for Cushing's that live a normal healthy life. The sooner we catch it the better.

I am just going to take a deep breath & take this one day at a time.

Thanks so much!!! Happy Friday

[molly muffin]

Well no UTI is a good thing. Sounds like you have a good vet and that is really important. I think it helps the prognosis for a long and healthy life if you have a good vet on board from the beginning.

We're very, very happy that you found us and that we've been able to help even a little bit.

It's okay to be scared, most of us are. When you need that shoulder, here we are.

Have a good weekend.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Baby steps and remember to breathe:)

I t will be all right, we are all here for you and Boriss. You are family now. We've got your back !!!!

Try to enjoy your weekend.

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Addy & Sharlene :)

Quick question for the group. I decided too add Milk Thistle to Boriss's supplement last night. I spoke with the IMS & she thought it would be okay. I sprinkled it on his food last night & then about 2 hours later he started this weird almost cough strange breathing noise. He went to bed with it & then woke up this morning better. Maybe slightly doing it on our morning walk.
Have any of you ever had your dog have an allergic reaction to it? I won't be trying it again until after I talk to the IMS on Friday at his appointment.

I am just hoping this in not yet another symptom I have to worry about. We leave town in the morning & I am a nervous wreck. :eek:

Think I might have to get some valium to try to enjoy this trip. :eek::eek::eek:

I took him to the dog park yesterday & he was SO grumpy with the other dogs. I ended up having to hold him the entire time while Pearl played. I am wondering if that is just because Cushing's makes mood swings or he just isn't feeling good.

All this is so hard to decipher between symptoms, just a grumpy butt or is he still suffering from loosing his best pal last month???

He hasn't really been as full of life since she passed away.

I guess this vacation will be good for me. I need to remove myself from the situation for a couple of days to come back with a fresh head.

I have become a worry wart! :D

[frijole]

Hi! I can only say my dog did fine with milk thistle and I don't remember anyone else's dog having issues. I say, go have a great vacation! Kim

[addy]

The only thing I saw was human reactions- could cause allergic reaction if you are allergic to ragweed as it is from the same family. Most dogs tolerate it very well.

If Boriss had a possible reaction, dont give it again just like you had planned and have a great vacation!!!!!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

A belated welcome to you and Boriss! :)

If Boriss has any allergies, it could be that he is reacting to the milk thistle as he would any other allergen that bothers him. Without extensive testing to determine the allergens, we have to kinda watch and see what bothers them and do our best to avoid them. My little Boston has allergies and currently needs to be on a diuretic for a separate issue. I wanted to try dandelion instead of chemicals so I tested a small spot on her inner thigh with the dandelion and she reacted with redness and itching. SO she is on Lasix instead as that reaction indicated to me she should not have the dandelion internally. ;) I don't know that I would give it to him again if he is having a respiratory reaction for fear the reaction would get worse with each dose.

My Squirt was on milk thistle for about a year or so several years ago but she started getting sick from it - throwing it up. At first, she would took it just fine, but then started vomiting up the herb minus the capsule casing, the herb itself still in capsule shape - not digesting it at all. So I switched to a tincture (liquid) form and she threw up immediately after. I asked about it in my nutrition group and was told milk thistle should be cycled - 3 months on, 3 months off; example - they take it in the spring and fall, but don't in the summer and winter. By giving it to Squirt daily for a year or more, she apparently has developed a sensitivity to this herb. :( Therefore, I like to share my ignorance with folks so they don't repeat my error. :o:D

It is important to bear in mind two particular things when dealing with herbs. 1.) That they are drugs in their own right. We often think of herbs as benign, not capable of causing any real harm. That just isn't true - some of them are incredibly powerful and all demand respect. 2.) Most herbs work much slower than pharmaceuticals. So where we could see a response in just hours or days on a pharmaceutical it can take weeks or months for herbs to work to their full capacity. Patience and attention are necessary when working with herbal medicines.

How is Boriss this morning? Did he get another milk thistle dose? How did he react this time?

I hope you enjoy your vacation and don't spend the whole time worrying....like I do. :o;):D Why hasn't someone come up with a phone for dogs so we could call home and see how they are doing in our absence? :p Don't think I want a camera, tho....I can figure out what happened by the damage when I get back. :D:p

Keep your chin up and stay in touch!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Enjoy your vacation and skip the milk thistle. :) A solid plan. LOL

Thanks Leslie for the reminder about milk thistle cycling. Even though ours is in a combined multivitamin type of thing. It is probably good to remember to do that 3 on, 3 off thing.

Hugs
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks so much for the great information. It really helps to be able to bounce things off of experienced people. :):)

We are back from our mini vacation.. It was Las Vegas.. so, I am not sure I was even on vacation.:rolleyes: My husbands 40th bday. I am tired.. ha

I did not give Boriss the Milk Thistle again. I was too afraid to mess with it. I will have to ask the IMS today when I pick him up what I should do.

He is doing his ACTH test today. I can't wait to pick him up. The anxiety of the day is killing me.

The good thing is he hasn't had an accident in 2 days & doesn't seem to be going potty as much. I really feel like if he is Cushing's he is not that bad off yet. (crossing fingers)

Here's to having hope.. The more I read about the treatment the more nervous I get.

Next week he will have the ultra sound.

I just hope if he is having liver problems we can figure out something besides Milk Thistle to take if he is indeed allergic to it.

Thanks everyone.. I hope your week went well & today is FRIDAY.. yay!!

[molly muffin]

Welcome back. Glad you had a good vacation. :)

I know what you mean, reading and hearing about the medications for cushings scares the bejebees out of me too. I keep hoping molly doesn't tip over into full blown. I know that knowledge is good and learning makes it easier and I'm trying to do that, just like I know you are, but man oh man, it takes nerves of steel to get through this thing

Let us know what the test results show! Hope the ACTH is negative. Remember mine were positive on the ACTH and negative on the LDDS. So, it's always hard to tell whats going on.

HUGS,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Sharlene..
I am such a big picture person that I am going to have to FORCE myself to step back & take baby steps with this. :p

Boriss is home & happy right now. I think the day at the vet pooped him out. He is very tired..

We will have results next week & hopefully we will do the ultra sound next week. I just need to know everything for my own sanity.

I hope if he has Cushing's he ends up being borderline as well. None of his symptoms are over the top yet. I just worry about things like if I don't go ahead & treat him now will I wake up one morning & he has tons of things wrong with him.. I don't want him to have to go thru what looks like painful skin things & what feels like starvation to them. :(

I guess there isn't any true way to stay ahead of the game with this disease? You just wait for things to happen & take care of them when they do?!? That is going to teach me a whole lot of patience & give me some serious anxiety. :eek::eek:

Enjoy your weekend! For now I am just going to continue to breath & do some serious cuddling with both of my babies. :):):)

[Boriss McCall]

I too hope Molly stays where she is at & never crosses into full blown cushing's. I don't like seeing any dog having hard times. :(

Here is good vibes that your baby will stay in the clear for a long time.:)

[addy]

Spend the weekend doing some serious Boriss cuddling and lock up the Cushings in a drawer:):)

Thanks for the nice comments on Zoe and Koko:):).

I waited a year before starting treatment. I had to deal with Zoe's colitis/IBD first. At the time that was more of a worry than her Cushing symptoms.

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Everyone,
I am trying to hold it together over here. :(

The vet just called with Boriss's test results. I think I got my test confused. I thought he was taking the acth test but he had the Dexamethasone Suppression test on Friday.

On a side note. Since I had never heard of cushing's before & did not know what to check for.. I really feel like the dog we just lost in July our Min-Pin might have been suffering from the same thing & we were unaware of it. :( She was stoic I never really knew when things were wrong with her. On the other hand Boriss is a big ole baby :p & he lets his mama know when something is hurting him in the slightest. So I had a dog that showed nothing & an over exaggerater. :eek:
I feel really guilty that Cleo may have suffered Cushing's & we never knew..:(:(:(:(

But, now all I can do it move on & take care of my little boy. In the past couple years we have been thru so much with our pups.
One of our English Bulldogs somehow contracted Meningitis & passed away after a few months of HORRIBLE times for him. Talk about watching your baby go thru something terrible.. It was so painful to watch.:(:(

I just hope that Cushing's will be nothing like watching Pony Boy with Meningitis. It was just AWFUL!! I can't bare to see that again.

The vet really feels like Boriss has Cushing's. He has his ultra sound to check his glands & all other organs this coming Thursday.

Here is the Dex Suppression results.
Pre Dexamethasone 10.0 (high) reference range 1.0-6.0 ug/dL
Post 4 Hr Dex 1.9 reference range less than 1.5ug/dL
Post 8 Hr Dex 3.8 reference range less than 1.5 ug/dL
Is that the only numbers you need form these test results?

She feels like it is pituitary from the results we have seen thus far.

My heart hurts...:(:( I am so afraid of the treatment. It seems like a lot of the dogs get worse before better.

I guess I can be thankful he doesn't have hair loss or skin infections or pot belly. He looks healthy. He sleeps thru the night without accidents or needing to go out. He isn't drinking buckets of water. But, a little more than normal. He just lays around & that makes me sad. No Boston Terrier just lays around they like to be silly & have fun. He also is more hungry & I don't want him to feel like I am starving him.

I asked the IMS what her action to treatment would be when we get there. Since Boriss weighs 26 to 28 lbs. currently 28. She would want to start him on Trilostane at 30mg. so scary!! :eek:

She mentioned she would also send him home with Prednisone for emergencies. I am just worried because unfortunately my dogs are both home alone mon-fri 5 hours in the morning & then I go home for lunch for 30 minutes & then they are there alone for another 3 hours. I am just worried about missing signs from the meds while I am at work. stress stress stress...

She feels like we will be doing him a favor starting his meds instead of waiting. If I wait he will get more symptoms & it is not good for his organs in the long run to keep them exposed to the high cortisol level.

I have had other friends who didn't treat their dogs at all because of the side affects of meds. I just hope if we start the meds I am making the right decision. I don't want him to be miserable with the meds or without the meds. ugg..

[Steph n' Ella]

I wouldn't stress too much about your little girl, Cleo (easy for me to say, though). Lots of endocrine disorders mimic cushings and most dogs do not generally die of cushings.

The main reasons to treat is when the excessive thirst/excessive hunger lower the quality of life for your pup. If his quality of life is still good w/o the medication, then it may not be worth the risk. If he is holding his bladder for 5 hours during the day, I am thinking you got it pretty good, IMHO. :D

[Boriss McCall]

I wish he was holding it 5 hours a day. he usually has at least one or two accidents each day. poor guy.. He had one right in front of me Saturday. I didn't realize he needed to go out right then. :confused: Poor guy... But, he does do much better in the morning. The evenings is when most of his symptoms kick in.

[Nikki]

Max is the same way, he has accidents all the time. He can only hold his bladder for maybe 2 hours during the day. Sometimes he will pee right in front of me and I realize I haven't let him out in awhile and I feel so bad!!! He looks so guilty, but its not his fault he pees so much! Max is the same with his mood too. My mom has two Bostons, and they are crazy!!!! They run around like freaks and just have such fun awesome personalities!!! When Max started getting sick 2 years ago we thought he was just "getting old". He has no where near as much energy as a normal Boston! He lays around a lot and we joke that his favorite hobby is sleeping :). He can barely make it into the house with the one step, meanwhile my mom's dogs can jump up on the beds no problem at all! But, I still love him to death and I know he isn't suffering, he enjoys sleeping away his days. The vetoryl really helped him a lot, he doesn't drink nearly as much as he used to and his fur started growing back!! Also, he doesn't seem to be starving all the time either, which makes me feel better!

[molly muffin]

I know how it hard it is to hear that word cushings. The treatment scared me and still scares me to death too. When to start treatment, the whole thing is just nerve wrecking. One thing to think of though is that once you get that dosage just right, then it's not nearly as bad. It's the whole beginning thing where it is scariest. Many people here have gone through this and had their babies on meds for years. That has to be a good thing. I hold onto that thought. That and knowing that if some symptoms do kick in, that this is where you will probably get the first answers.

Hugs, sweetie! We'll all get through this!

Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Nikki... so since Boriss has started sleeping more & is not on the meds yet. When he does start them should I aspect him to be more sleepy? I was hoping he would start playing again. Fortunately he still gets excited about walks & car rides. He just never touches his toys anymore & won't chase a ball. That was his most favorite thing to do. :(

How long did you wait to start treatment after you found out Max had Cushing's?

Thanks for the input Sharlene. How long does the adjustment period normally last? I hesitate to say "normal" since there is nothing normal about this disease & every dog is different. But, is there some kind of average time frame?

My vet suggested we start Boriss on 30mg a day & his weight is 28lbs. Does that seem like a high starting dosage?

Thanks so much for being such awesome advocates for all of us newbies who come here scared out of our gourds. :eek:

Amy & Boriss

[Steph n' Ella]

Poor Boriss! Ella has pee problems too and I also go home at lunch to let her out. I feel like if I am a min. past 4 hours she has an accident. I can't remember, have you had his thyroid checked recently? Low thyroid is associated with Cushings. I didn’t own Ella while she was young and perky but boy is there a huge difference in her energy level after she started hormone replacements for her thyroid!

[Boriss McCall]

Poor Boriss! Ella has pee problems too and I also go home at lunch to let her out. I feel like if I am a min. past 4 hours she has an accident. I can't remember, have you had his thyroid checked recently? Low thyroid is associated with Cushings. I didn’t own Ella while she was young and perky but boy is there a huge difference in her energy level after she started hormone replacements for her thyroid!

I hate it when the poor little things have to feel guilty for peeing in the house. poor babies.. I can't remember now I have read so many threads. Has Ella started treatment for Cushing's yet?

I had a full blood panel done 2 weeks ago. But, to be honest I am not sure what test abbreviation I am supposed to be looking at for Thyroid. Would Thyroid be checked in the regular full blood work?

[molly muffin]

I've read a couple things on the board here. For instance with the Trilostane, day 10 seems to be when you might see a downward turn of low cortisol, and to me that means it's a good time to get that first ACTH test.

Also reading here, the first 30 days can be the main target to try and get the dosage right. So, say they get past that first 2 week period with no issues, then you'll want to see how it is at the 4 week period and make sure that they haven't started to bottom out after the first 2 week test.

That's just a trend I've noticed from reading the threads. Of course you will always have to be aware of any change in behavior as the body could start reacting differently to it after awhile.

Not sure if that helps or not and like I said, it's just trends I've noticed in the threads here.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[Nikki]

It's hard to say how Max was, because he also had a thyroid problem and all types of allergies, so it was just a big mess figuring out what was wrong with him. He did perk up more when we started the Vetoryl. He was around 20lbs and my vet wanted him on 10mg/twice a day. His ATCH test showed his numbers were still high so we got him up to 30mg a day. He hasn't jumped at all, but since my surgery I can't pick him up and three times today he jumped on the couch to lay with me. So maybe he just doesn't jump because we are always lifting him up!!! I was so surprised to see him jump, I wish I could of video taped it to prove it really happened to my boyfriend!!! Haha :).

[Boriss McCall]

ha.. it is so easy to spoil those little suckers rotten. The big eyes get me EVERYTIME.

That is exciting new to here.. I figured we will probably end up at 30mg as well. I just want to see how he reacts to it before I go that high. If the IMS gives me the okay.

I am glad you are home & healing. I know it had to be hard you being in pain & worried about Max at the same time. He must love his mama & wants to cuddle with you so you will get well. It's funny how they know.:)

[Boriss McCall]

Sharlene.. thanks for the great information. I will know after Thursday when & what we are going to do. :)

[Steph n' Ella]

No, Ella hasn't been diagnosed yet. Thyroid blood work is abbreviated "T4."

[Boriss McCall]

Thank you! I will check my files & make sure with the vet tomorrow that I shouldn't be worried about that. :)

[Steph n' Ella]

Generally the reference range is 1-4. So anything less than 1 could be the cause of the lethargy. Also, a "Free T4" which is a more expensive thyroid test shows more of the hormones involved and can be helpful in pin-pointing if Cushings is causing the low thyroid.

I wish I would have known to ask to get a Free T4 before I started treating Ella with hormone replacements...I would have so much more data at my finger tips!

[Boriss McCall]

If it weren't for this forum I think my head would have exploded by now.:D

I have learned so much!!

I just looked at his T4 from 8/11/12. I think it is normal.

T4 Results 2.0 ug/dL reference range 1.0-4.0

I might be mistaking his mood swings for lethargy?? But, he is sleeping a lot more than he used to. Also both dogs are going thru a little depression due to the loss of our Min Pin last month. I am slowly seeing better signs in my healthy dog she is starting to play more. The sad fog is lifting for them..:):)

So it could be a number of things causing his lethargy or me reading into his moods too much.:rolleyes:

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss goes for his ultra sound tomorrow. Fingers crossed it goes smooth.

In the mean time he is not happy with me at all. He is extra hungry today. If you know Boston Terriers they are all ready good at looking sad. Tonight he is really playing it up laying on the floor & begging for more food with those big sad eyes. I dread tomorrow morning when he realizes he won't be getting breakfast. He will NOT be happy. :confused:

I do have a question. My biggest fear is he will end up having one of those macro tumors that grows fast from the trilostane. Is there not anyway in the ultra sound or any other test to figure this out before treatment starts & it speeds the tumor growth? That terrifies me! I am not trying to borrow trouble here. But, I read somewhere that the smoochy face dogs get the macro tumors more often than other breeds. But, I have read so much stuff lately I could have that wrong.

If it is slow growing I would like to keep it that way...

[Tina]

Hi Amy,

When I was driving up my street to come home tonight there was a man walking two Boston's and I thought of you and Boriss, and the other Boston's on this site immediately. They were so cute and just prancing down the sidewalk.

I know what you mean about worrying about a macro tumor. Since reading and learning so much about them, that fear is in the back of my mind also. I just have to try to not think about it now.

I will be thinking about your little guy tomorrow, I hope it all goes well.

Hugs,

Tina and Jasper

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

You are correct in that dogs with the brachycephalic dogs are more prone to macro tumors. Brachycyphalic dogs are those with the skull profile like Pugs, Bostons, Boxers, Shih tzu, etc. Why are these breed more often diagnosed with macros? I don't know for sure but statistics support this unfortunately. Now, that does NOT mean all pups with this skull shape who get Cushing's develop macros - they do NOT. But just as some breeds are more prone to Cushing's, some of those breeds are more prone to macros. ;)

Unfortunately, there is no way to predict if a micro pituitary tumor will start to grow and become a macro. I want to be sure you understand that conventional Cushing's means there is tumor present already. If a pup has PDH, the pituitary based form, there is a micro tumor on that gland. If a pup has ADH, the adrenal based form, there are one or more tumors on the adrenal glands (it is rare to have more than one adrenal tumor, but it does happen). So the treatments themselves do not cause the tumor; the tumor is already present in microscopic size.

Let us know how the ultrasound goes and what you learn from it!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Tina, Jasper, Leslie & the gang..

Thanks for the info. The tumor is already there & that is what Cushing's is.

But, if it is a Macro tumor & I start treatment & see that it is getting worse. If I stop treatment will the tumor go back to a more slow & steady growth rate?

He is not that bad off at the moment so I sure wish I could see into the future to know what kind it will be... :o But, don't we all wish for a time machine every now & then.:(

[3bostons]

Hi Amy,
I too was reading about these and found this page has some info on it. I worry about these too only because it seems like if they grow and at what pace is all so undetermined just like the rest of the disease. I just try to take one day at a time and not worry about what could happen even though its hard to not think of it for me.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pituitary_macroadenoma.html

hugs, Kona and deb

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks for the link! I can't wait to read it.

I did speak to two other BT mamas yesterday & their dogs have been succesfully treated with Trilostane for years. They didn't even have a hard time at loading & no macro tumors.

I am praying we both are that lucky. :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

Perhaps I wasn't clear....it is unlikely Boriss has a macro at this time or you would be seeing signs like head pressing, getting stuck in corners or behind things, confusion, circling and so on. In that case, I personally would not start treatment of any kind as treatment would more than like cause the tumor to grow more rapidly without the cortisol to "treat" it. Are you seeing signs that indicate Boriss has a macro now?

The tumors that are present in Cushing's are microscopic and the majority of them remain that size with or without treatment. If, IF, the tumor does start to grow, stopping the treatment will not be likely to reduce the size back down tho it may slow future growth. Radiation treatments are available for pups with macros, tho.

However, your comment about "borrowing trouble" is appropriate here. ;) Macro tumors are not the norm. I know how you feel, tho. When I realized that Cushing's meant tumors were present, I was nuts with worry...an easy place for me to get to. :o:p So I had to look at it this way - a macro is just a possibility while the disease itself is a given. I can address what is known and pray that the unknown never happens - and that is all I can do.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

One other bit of info for you, Amy - there is no loading phase with Trilostane. You simply start with a daily dose and stay with a daily dose when using Trilostane. Loading only happens when using Lysodren, which is given twice a day until signs are seen that the load has been achieved then the pup gets dosed 2-4 times a week, a maintenance dose. Just FYI as you are learning about this disease!

[Boriss McCall]

Leslie you are right. I just take care of what is now & TRY not to worry about the future.

So far he has not had anything like that. The only symptoms we have are accidents, more water than usual (i think) not buckets for sure. The main symptom & the worst is watching him be so hungry. I hate seeing that. The pee is a pain.. but, I can clean that up. I can't feed him more to make the hunger go away.:(
I am going to crate him for a few days before I start any treatment to see exactly how much water he is drinking.
As of now the only reference I have is I have an Old English Bulldog & him. Between the 2 they drink about 7-8 cups of water a day. To me that doesn't seem extreme. He is not sitting at the water bowl lapping up water constantly.
But, he is CONSTANTLY walking around the house scanning the ground for crumbs. :p
He has always loved toilet paper little rascal..:p:p

So, I learned another new thing today.. go figure with this disease..:p
I thought there was a loading phase with Trilostane as well. Good to know.. Thanks! I guess that explains why it is more expensive a pill a day forever.
I am so lucky & blessed to have dog insurance.
My husband & I learned our lesson the hard way when our beloved Pony Boy (bulldog) got meningitis. We racked up over $8,000 in a VERY short amount of time & he didn't make it. So, painful on both ends. We will be paying that off forever..
If anyone is reading this & is curious about insurance.. do it!! obviously it is too late (I think) for your pups that are already sick. But, if you have other dogs I highly suggest it if you are in America.
I was hoping I would never have to find out the benefits & just keep paying the monthly bill. :rolleyes: But, here we are & it is helping the stress of the illness versus the money thing.
I will keep you posted on Boriss's ultrasound. He hasn't been sedated since he was a pup.
Thanks everyone! You my friends are the only ones that truly understand what I am going thru. ;)

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Everyone,
I just got off the phone with the IMS. There is no doubt in her mind now that he has Cushing's. bummer.. But, now it is time for mama to take action.:o

She is doing a write up now.. but, here are some of the things she told me.

The glands size: one was about 8mm & the other 7 1/2mm.

Gallbladder: a little bit of sludge. but, ok. I hope I get this right. He still has gravity & there is no mucus. Just something to be aware of.

Liver: Enlarged. but, with meds it will go back to normal.

Spleen: There is a tiny tiny nodule in the spleen. It is not cancer less than centimeter. Just something to be aware of. She is not worried about this.

Kidneys: good shape & size. But, there is tiny shadowing.. not cancer.. appears to be a mild mineralization do to age.

He will not be on any other medication except Trilostane at this point.
We are not even going to try the milk thistle again unless the Trilostane doesn't get the liver back to normal. Since he seemed to have a weird reaction to it when I gave it to him last week she wants to limit the amount of things we are giving him at this time.

She suggest not even changing his diet until we get everything under control. Currently he is on Senior Nutro food.

Now here is were I need some experienced peoples input.

Boriss Weights 28lbs normally he stays right at the 26 lb mark.

She wants to start him on once a day Trilostane at 30mg.
She is willing to start him off at 20mg if I am more comfortable with that.

What do you think I should do? :confused:

worried mama.. I have seen so many different post. When giving your opinion don't factor in cost. I am by no means rich or anywhere close to it. :p but, I will go to the ends of the earth for my babies. I just want to do this the safest way possible.


Also from the looks of all his labs are you as confidant as my IMS he has cushing's? I am sure he does I can't imagine any other thing making him pee constantly & starving all the time & drinking a lot.
Specially after seeing the size of the glands.

Thanks for your advise, opinions, thoughts & ideas.

Amy & Borris

[Boriss McCall]

oh my GOSH! Boriss hasn't been sedated since he was fixed as a baby. I don't like the way he is acting. He's not dying or anything like that.:rolleyes:

But, man.. he is out of it. How long does it normally take to wear off? He doesn't even want to eat unless it is something worth moving for other than his real food.
I know he is okay cause he is moving around he is just out of it. I hope he doesn't have to do this too often in his life. He needs his teeth cleaned soon. But, I will probably try the non sedated way first.

Starting treatment soon. Doctor was ready to start tomorrow. I just have to figure out if I am okay with starting Boriss with her suggestion of 30mg or if I want to start lower at 20mg.

He is a little zombie right now..

[3bostons]

Hi Amy, i hate having them sedated for anything too, i wont do the sedation for teeth cleaning myself. Last time kona was under was for surgery and she came out of it pretty quick, she was groggy but ate and still tried to act normal.
As far as your dosage, its hard when the vet tells us one thing and we are hesitant. IMO, i would start low, especially if the vet says you can if you wanted, we know our pets better than anyone right. Maybe you could do what i did and go back a week early just for abasic blood panel to be sure things are going the way it should? Or maybe you would wait the full time then check and increase as needed. As you know i am not one of the experts here, just someone who feels like you do about the meds. Just to let you know kona is still doing ok now on the 10 mg 2 x day, even tho its only now been 4 days at the double amount, i feel better having started slow and i was told it dont hurt anything, it may just slow the effectiveness of the meds until we get to the proper dosage.
Im sure you will get some better input than mine, i just wanted to put my thoughts in. Hope you guys get some good rest tonight.
Hugs, kona and deb

[molly muffin]

Hi, well the ultrasound does seem to be consistent with cushings. I made a big fuss about 30mg with my 19lb dog. The IMS recommended a low dose to start with of around 10, before we got the LDDS results back which she suppressed just fine. So I guess I'm a proponent of starting low and going up.
If I remember correctly your vet said she had and has treated lots of dogs with cushings? So maybe she is basing that dosage on experience and that is what you'd arrive at in the end. It's hard to say for sure.

As for being out of it after being sedated. Just like people, it reacts differently with every animal, but in general I think you should see improvements tomorrow. It might take awhile to get over that.

hugs,
Sharlene

[labblab]

Hi Amy,

I just wanted to wish you luck as you launch into treatment, and also to let you know that your vet's dosing advice is consistent with the current recommendations of Dechra (manufacturer of brandname Vetoryl). Dechra suggests an intial dosing formula of 1 mg. per pound once daily, so according to them, 30 mg. would be an appropriate dose for Boriss.

Having said that, if you'd prefer to start lower, there is nothing wrong with that. The plus would be lessening the likelihood of ill effects even more; the minus is that it may take longer for you to see any improvement and you may have to shoulder some additional ACTH testing in conjunction with dosing adjustments.

So I really think the dosing decision is your call, and there really is no "wrong" answer. ;)

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks for the input & encouragement! :)

Boriss feels so much better today. But, I was even to the point last night were I pinched his skin & it stayed that way. He seemed a little dehydrated. I got my big water syringe out in case I had to force water down his throat. He ended up being "able" to drink some green bean juice. Not sure if I mentioned it before.. but, he is a PICKY eater.:rolleyes: Somehow even with this cushing's he has managed to be picky even while starving on most days. little booger..

Based on the way I have seen him handle drugs in the past I am going to start low & work our way up on the meds. Seems like everything hits him like a ton of bricks.
Hopefully we can start while I am off for a 3 day weekend. I will keep you posted.
I am sure we will end up at 30mg or maybe even more.. who knows..

I will keep you posted as we start this..
Heres to kicking Cushing's butt & keeping all the bad stuff away.:D
Happy weekend everyone!!

Amy & Boriss

[molly muffin]

Absolutely, cheers to "kicking Cushing's butt and keeping all the bad stuff away"

Have a good weekend!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Sharlene! you have a great weekend too.

My vet told me on the phone a few minutes ago that she has seen me go thru the stages of grief.. ha..

I told her I was feeling optimistic now. I hope I can keep this feeling rolling.. It is only because of you guys. Seriously!! BIG THANKS!! :D

[Boriss McCall]

Here are the result of his ultra sound 8/30/2012
Boriss 27pounds 8 years 10 months old

Liver Abnormal Subjectively enlarged w/increased overall echogenciity & prominent billary vessels.

Gall Bladder Abnormal Mild gall bladder sludge with minimal evidence of consolidation. :(

Spleen Abnormal Small, avoid, hypoechio nodule measuring 0.44 X 0.85 cm & located in the mid body of the spleen which does not distort the splenic capsule. :(

Kidneys left Abnormal Renal length is 5.19cm w/evidence of few pinpoint mineralizations scattered throughout the cortex.
Right Normal Renal length is 5.22cm

Adrenal Glands Left Abnormal Cranial pole measures 0.69cm, caudal pole measures 0.74cm
Right Abnormal Cranial pole measures 0.86cm, caudal pole measures 0.74cm

Urinary Bladder Normal

Stomach Normal

Small intestine
Duodenum Normal
Iejunum Normal
Ileocolic Not seen
Colon Normal
Pancreas Normal
Lymph Nodes Not seen
Blood Vessels Normal
Prostate Normal measures 0.88cm
Midabdomen Normal

Diagnosis: Bilateral adrenomegaly consistent with pituitary dependent hyperadrenocorticism, steroid hepatopathy, renal mineralization of the left kidney consistent with early degenerative renal disease, small nodule of spleen consistent with possible EMH

So that is that.. A bunch of spanish to me...:p

I feel a little worried about the spleen & kidney.. but, first things first.

[frijole]

I'll let Leslie tell you her story but she had a dog misdiagnosed with cushings when it was really a tumor on the spleen. They had it removed and that was the end of cushings. Thats the short version. Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

The kidney, liver, and spleen need to be among the "first things" looked into. Here's why - any non-adrenal, in other words, any illness that has no connection to the adrenal glands, can cause the cortisol to rise but that does not mean the pup has Cushing's. Kidney and liver disease can cause false-positives on the Cushing's tests, as can tumors in organs like the spleen. My Squirt was one who had a tumor on her spleen and when it was removed, her cortisol returned to normal. ;)

With kidney or liver disease, Trilostane (Vetoryl) cannot be used - it is contraindicated in these cases.

From the manufacturer's brochure -

Before starting treatment, cases should be screened
for the presence of primary hepatic disease and renal
insufficiency, as VETORYL is contraindicated in both
of these situations.

Concerning the use of Lysodren in dogs with kidney or liver disease -

http://www.vetdepot.com/lysodren-500-mg-100-tablets.html


Dogs with preexisting renal or hepatic disease should receive the drug with caution and with more intense monitoring.

So, from a treatment standpoint, you want to be fairly sure Boriss does not have kidney disease.

The adrenal glands are enlarged but no nodules or masses were found. In pituitary based Cushing's, enlarged adrenals are common but at this point, Cushing's would not be my focus. First, I would talk to the vets about what they think is going on with the kidney and spleen, and what the next steps need to be.

I'm sure others will be along with their input as well - we have several members who have dealt with both Cushing's and kidney issues as well as liver problems. Sounds like he got a very thorough ultrasound, which is great! :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Squirt's Mom]

HA! :D Kim and I were typing at the same time! :D

The whole story - Squirt tested positive on five different cushing's test as having PDH, the pituitary form of Cushing's. She had the LDDS, HDDS, ACTH, UTK panel and two ultrasounds. It was after the second U/S that I was told about the tumor on her spleen.

Once the tumor, and half her spleen, were removed, her cortisol returned to normal range. Her diagnosis of PDH was deemed inaccurate. The stress that tumor was causing on her system caused it to release extra cortisol to help carry the load, so to speak. This is the body's natural response to any stress - internal or external - extra hormones are released to help us cope and cortisol is one of those hormones. However, the cushing's tests couldn't tell the difference in WHY the extra cortisol was present, only that it was and five positives was a pretty good indicator she had PDH...but that tumor proved them wrong.

So, again, the spleen and kidneys need to be first on your list and Cushing's later. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Hi Amy,


Diagnosis: Bilateral adrenomegaly consistent with pituitary dependent hyperadrenocorticism, steroid hepatopathy, renal mineralization of the left kidney consistent with early degenerative renal disease, small nodule of spleen consistent with possible EMH.

Thanks so much for giving us your complete ultrasound report! From what I am seeing, I do believe that Cushing's remains very much in the picture. I think the question for your vet would be whether or not the issues with the spleen and kidney are also related or whether they are separate considerations.

I believe that the liver abnormality -- "steroid hepatopathy" -- would be a direct result of Cushing's. We also know that Cushing's can cause kidney issues, as well. Whether or not Cushing's is causing the ultrasound abnormalities noted for Boriss in relation to his kidneys, I do not know. That is definitely a question for your vet, as is the case re: the nodule in his spleen.

But to me, Cushing's remains in the forefront. Whether or not the spotlight needs to also include the kidneys and spleen would be the question I would want to ask your vet.

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

Leslie..
I tried to tell my vet about your baby the minute she brought up the spleen nodule yesterday. She wasn't worried. I couldn't remember your whole story because I have read everyones.. :confused:
I told her about one of the dogs having a tumor in the spleen & if you had started the meds your dog would have bleed out & died.
She told me that would not happen that it is so tiny that this has nothing to do with the cushing's stuff.
This is so hard!!
Maybe I should sit with her & let her read your story?!? Such a fine line i don't want to cross it.. I don't want to make her upset or make her feel as if I know more. To her defense she has been awesome. She wanted to start him on 30mg of tristolane. but, i told her i wasn't comfortable & she said 20mg was okay.
I just don't know what to do?!?:confused:
When you asked your vet to further examine the nodule was it the same size as Boriss's?
Are there any other test I can have done?
Let me ask you this..
I know the test could be skewed by other things. But, if a dog truly did not have cushing's would they have the symptoms? Hungry, peeing & drinking more? (not buckets.. but more) between my 2 dogs they drink about 8 cups a day.
I thought for sure he would be an easy no thought diagnosis since all 3 test have pointed positive cushing's. blood panel, dex test & ultra sound.
If I start the meds & it is something else can it make him die?:(
I am so confused....
I need to go re-read your story Leslie it has been a week since I read everyones stories & my brain has been on overload.
Thank you everyone for your responses. I have some serious thinking to do. I ordered his meds. They won't be here until Wednesday. I need to get all this sorted out. I never thought this would be so confusing.:eek:
I wonder if cushing's disease has ever driven anyone to drink.:eek::p:eek:
Also I asked her about the kidney. She told me due to his age is why they are seeing the mild mineralization.

[Boriss McCall]

Leslie,
I know I read something about Squirt & his nodule the other day. Now I can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?

[labblab]

Amy, since you're telling us that you have, indeed, already questioned your specialist about Boriss' spleen/kidney and she is not concerned that they present any problems at this time -- if it were me, I'd trust her professional opinion. I've just Googled her, and her credentials are excellent. Plus, she's told you that she has lots of experience treating Cushing's dogs, and from what she's advised you so far, all of her recommendations have sounded really reasonable to me. She sounds like a "keeper" to me. ;)

By no means am I telling you not to question her about things that are bothering you. You are Boriss' advocate, and you need to feel well-informed and comfortable with the information you are being given. So if you want to find out more specifics as to exactly what she thinks has caused that nodule on his spleen, for instance, I'd encourage you to do that. But in terms of the overall diagnosis, she has already told you that she believes Boriss does have Cushing's, and that these ultrasound abnormalities would not stand in the way of treatment. There are lots of different things that can show up on ultrasound. But she is the one who has actually seen and evaluated the specific abnormalities on Boriss' images. So if it were me, I'd trust her recommendations and move forward. I hate to see you torturing yourself like this in the meantime. :o

If you start Boriss on the trilostane and he doesn't seem to be tolerating it well, you can and should stop the medication immediately. But your specialist has already told you she is giving you prednisone to have on hand, so if his cortisol should drop too low for any reason, you will have the ability to replace the low cortisol with the prednisone. And once the trilostane is halted, in the majority of cases, the dog's natural cortisol rebounds very quickly.

The beauty of this forum is that you have the chance to gather the perspectives of many folks. But for what it's worth, I think your specialist sounds like she's on top of things, and I would move forward with her recommendations.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

The specifics of Squirt's tumor were posted on our old forum and that info was lost. I do have her records...somewhere...we moved in May and things are still in a mess. :D But here's what I remember - we were not given a choice about the surgery if she were to live. There was no question from the ultrasound that she was in trouble and the surgery had to be done quickly to save her life. I don't recall anything about her tumor being "inside" the organ - I am under the impression it was ON the organ so that may make a difference. The tumor was seen on the first ultrasound but the IMS who did that one didn't deem it necessary to tell anyone or make any notations in her charts about it. It was when the second one was done four months later that I was told about it and it had become critical over those four months. Why did the first IMS not say anything? Did she feel it was not a big deal? No one knows. She left the clinic shortly after with no indication of where she was going...for which she needs to be very grateful because I was LIVID at the blase' manner in which she approached that first U/S knowing the tumor was there then. The IMS who took over wasn't happy with her either. ;)

I was not trying to say Boriss doesn't have Cushing's - what I was saying was that the spleen and kidney need to be looked into in some depth before starting treatment. If you and your vets have discussed these findings on the ultrasound and they are not concerned about them, then by all means do what your heart dictates concerning treatment. But in your shoes, I would be hard pressed to start anything until I was thoroughly convinced these organs were ok and the Trilostane wasn't going to cause further damage to the kidney since the manufacturer says not to use it with kidney disease.

I was very cautious about starting treatment with Squirt when she was first diagnosed - that is why I had as many tests done as I could afford to make absolutely sure what was going on. If I had not done that and simply started treatment she would have died when that tumor ruptured - which would have happened because of the way the first IMS handled it if that second U/S had not been performed four months later. My experiences with Squirt's cush journey have simply reinforced my "take it slow, don't rush into treatment" belief when dealing with Cushing's. ;) Many times we have seen a pup start treatment based on one test and do just fine. But there are always those cases like my Squirt and Kim's Annie who fit the cushing's profile, have positive tests, yet are not true cushionoid dogs. Very, very rarely will you hear me saying, "Start treatment NOW" without extensive testing to back up the diagnosis and/or severe signs showing in the dog. I nearly always advise - take it slow and make sure what you are dealing with first. If you and your vets have reached that "sure" point, then start treatment whenever you are ready. ;)

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

PS. In case you are wondering why Squirt is a cush pup if the PDH diagnosis was removed it is because in our testing she did test positive for the Atypical form in which cortisol is not involved. This was determined via the UTK full adrenal panel. (UTK = University of Tennessee in Knoxville) In addition, Squirt did NOT display the typical cush signs - another reason I was so cautious, she did not present as a cush pup when the testing was being done.

[labblab]

Amy, I see we've started a new page of replies in your thread. Just want to make sure you see that I had added a reply this morning on the bottom of the previous page. Not that I am a genius :o, but I just know that it is easy sometimes to overlook replies when a new page gets started.

Marianne

[labblab]

Just back from walking the girls and thinking over Boriss' situation the whole time. Leslie, from Squirt's experience, I surely understand your concerns. But where I get stuck is, what additional testing is there left to do? I know you're worried about Boriss' kidney and his spleen. But in checking back on his labs, apparently there were no abnormalities at all re: his kidney function other than urine specific gravity that is verging on dilute (consistent with Cushing's) and a trace of blood on the urinalysis which I think is common when the sample is drawn by needle. But there was no protein at all in the urine, and apparently the creatinine and BUN were both normal. So I don't see how there could be kidney dysfunction present that would interfere with the proper excretion of trilostane if/when he begins treatment. And I believe that is the basis for the warning about using trilostane in the face of renal insufficiency.

As for the nodule on the spleen, I would think that the ultrasound would be the best available diagnostic short of an actual biopsy of some sort. But in that regard, I wouldn't think you'd want to subject a dog to the risk of a biopsy unless the ultrasound imaging of the nodule was of concern to the vet.

I'm guessing I may be sounding argumentative here, and I surely don't wish for that to be the case. And I absolutely do not want to rush Amy and Boriss into treatment prematurely. But at this stage, do you have thoughts as to what other testing you'd want to request in order to set your mind at ease?

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

No, because I don't know what tests are available...but that is something I would ask about before starting treatment. Like I said, if Amy and her vet are at the "sure" point, then by all means start treatment. ;)

Hugs to both of you,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thank you both so much for taking the time to look at Boriss's reports. I have been thinking it thru all morning. It helps so much to be able to bounce things off of other people to learn more.

I really feel like my IMS is right in my heart. But, I will address the kidneys with her a little further than the questions I have all ready asked. I am just not sure what other test can be run other than just not doing treatment all together. Which I can't sit by & watch him not feel like himself. I want him to return to the crazy little BT I know he is.

The first time I asked her about the kidney's she feels like the mild things she was seeing is really do to his age. Something seen in older dogs often maybe? Or has the cortisol running thru his body started to show damage to his kidneys? Is that possible? i didn't ask her that.
Even in a "regular" cush pup on trilostane do the meds eventually cause damage to the kidney? I was thinking by treating him we would be helping to save his organs from further damage.

She wasn't worried about the nodule of the spleen. She plans on monitoring it close. Unfortunately we will have to do another ultra sound after he has been in treatment for awhile. I say unfortunately because I hate the way being sedated affects him. so, she doesn't seem worried about the nodule. But, she also isn't taking it lightly. She plans on keeping an eye on things. Still scares me to think this medication could make it rupture? yikes!!

The one thing that does perplex me is that it appears on some days his cushing's symptoms don't kick in until evening time. Like this morning.. We slept in & he is right back to napping on the sofa. He is not interested in eating yet today. (mind you he has ALWAYS been really picky when it comes to eating.) We used to have to play games with him to get him interested in his food. Of course if I laid down a steak dinner every time he would be all over that. :D
But, that changes in the evening time. That is when he is hungry & lays by his food bowl.

I explained all this to the IMS & she said sometimes the gland can be releasing cortisol at higher levels sporadically. Something like that. So his behaviors can kick in at different times? I need to start recording our conversations to keep up.:confused:

I know & she knows he is drinking more. He is just not sitting at the bowl lapping it up all at once like I have read some of the other dogs on here do that. She said his little bladder was distended during the ultrasound. Nothing to be alarmed about. He is just good at holding it in. I guess that is why he doesn't have more than 1 accident in the house a day. He is trying to be good for as long as his little body will let him.:(

Put he never pants (thank goodness) that would scare me. The only time he does that is after a walk or if he has been running around in the back yard.

He can sleep the entire night without having to get up for a drink or potty.

The only symptoms that really make me feel bad for him is when he does the lay by his food bowl thing & he seems to have mood swing & I can tell he just doesn't feel energetic like he normally does.

I wish this were cut & dry.. but, don't we all.

I think what I will do is ask her a few more questions before we get started on the meds about the organs. If she plans on monitoring them very close I will feel comfortable. She is very open to discussion & a smart lady who is currently treating other cush pups right now. I know at least 2 are in her care at the moment that are doing fabulous on the trilostane.

If he starts responding poorly to the meds than maybe that will mean something more is going on that needs to be taken care of. I am really not even sure if anything can be done for the kidneys?

:confused:

[labblab]

Amy, since you have remaining questions, I absolutely agree it's really important for you to follow-up with your vet. But in the meantime, to put your mind at ease about a couple of things...

No, trilostane should not harm the kidneys of a "regular" Cushpup being treated. You are right, the goal of treatment is to keep the disease from causing slow damage to the organs over time. You should double-check this with your vet, but I believe the warning about using trilostane in a dog with "renal insufficiency" is not because the drug itself causes kidney damage, but because if there is pre-existing kidney damage already present that is severe enough to compromise the kidneys' ability to function, the drug will not be properly metabolized and removed from the body. I don't think there is any evidence that Boriss' kidneys are not functioning adequately right now. But for sure, double-check that with the vet.

Also, Leslie can confirm this, but I don't think she meant for you to think that trilostane will cause a tumor in an organ to rupture. I think she is saying that if the tumor on Squirt's spleen had not been caught and operated on in time, the tumor itself could have ruptured the spleen and caused her to bleed to death. So the critical issue was making sure that the tumor was properly diagnosed and removed.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

{quoted from Marianne} I think she is saying that if the tumor on Squirt's spleen had not been caught and operated on in time, the tumor itself could have ruptured the spleen and caused her to bleed to death. So the critical issue was making sure that the tumor was properly diagnosed and removed.

Exactly right, Marianne.

[molly muffin]

Hi Amy,

I've been following the discussion concerning Boriss. I think Leslie and Marianne have covered all the basics, so I'll just say that I know you'll come up with a plan that you feel comfortable with and that is what is best for Boriss. Sometimes, you have to go with what your gut tells you based upon all the information you have.
Ask more questions about the kidney and spleen issues and based upon that and everything that you already know make the decision of what your next step will be. You don't want to just go in circles and worry yourself sick.
We'll be right here with you the whole way, whatever you decide to do now or later.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

Thank you all so much for the GREAT info & telling your stories.

I have a list of questions to talk about with the IMO hopefully on Tuesday after the holiday.

I am also going to go up & take a look at the Ultra Sound images & have her explain them to me.

Then if all goes well Boriss will be starting meds sometime the end of next week. I really feel like her diagnosis is correct.

I just want to make sure that there isn't anything I can do to help the kidneys or the spleen. When I spoke with her on the phone she said nothing can be done she will watch close. But, I was in a hurry & at work. I want to be able to understand what she is telling me.

Plus this will help me to make sure I feel good about what I am doing & not second guess the should haves later in treatment. I do realize things might happen later on. I just hope we can start out easy & worry free. :)

I would be more than ready to pop a pill in his mouth as soon as the medication arrives if I saw him panting & drinking massive amounts of water. I also have to remember that some of the stories I am reading are involving bigger dogs who probably already require a lot more water under normal circumstances than Boriss would ever drink. Plus we DO live in TEXAS.. It is hotter than He double hockey sticks here.

Other Boston mom's are you seeing your guys lap water non stop or do you just notice an increase in water intake?
It is SO hard not to over analyze EVERYTHING he does. I am sure he is getting sick of me picking on him. :p

I guess I better run.. He & his sister Pearl decided it would be a GREAT idea to rip up a card board box & start eating it while I wasn't looking. I swear this dog could live on paper...

This morning I put his food bowl on the ground in the bathroom while I was dressing. Next to his food bowl was a scrap of clean toilet paper on the ground. Guess which one he decided to eat first.. yep the toilet paper..:rolleyes:

Thanks so much everyone!

[Tina]

Hi Amy,

I was terrified to start Jasper on the medication also, although he was getting Lysodren and I believe you are going to start Trilostane. Jasper is having some significant issues right now (as you know), but at this point I don't regret starting the medication. Every dog is different and he has shown to apparently be extremely sensitive to the medication. While I am scared to death now, I am praying that gets through this set back and we can continue on the treatment course. I am too scared about the long term effects of raging cortisol on his body to not continue the medication, if that is what my vet recommends.

Jasper didn't show many of the classic signs of Cushings either, mainly just drinking tons of water and peeing like a big dog. He has never had the ravenous appetite, pot belly, extreme panting, etc that many others have. So I was worried about the accuracy of the diagnosis also, and sometimes still get a fleeting worry about it.

It is wonderful that you had an ultrasound done, and it sounds like your vet is very good as well. From reading your thread, you sound a lot like me. I over analyze everything, and sometimes feel like I drive my vet crazy because I ask so many detailed questions and need to know everything. I totally understand your reluctance, and need to feel sure about things. I know you will make the right decision and do what is best for Boriss.

Thanks for your posts about Jasper, he needs everyone's prayers right now!

Hugs to you and Boriss,

Tina and Jasper

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Tina for advice on your journey. It really helps a lot to hear what is going on with others babies.
I am so sorry you are sad & stressed right now. I hope you wake up to a happy Jasper who is ready to go home tomorrow. :)

I wish this were easier for all of us. :(

[Boriss McCall]

Hi all..
hope you don't mind if I use this forum as sort of a medical dog diary for Boriss. ;)

I want to make a few notes to come back to later for Dr. Purcell.

Spleen Nodules
http://www.veterinaryradiology.net/153/splenic-nodules/
Need to monitor. Go back & possibly do a needle biopsy if it appears to grow.


Gallbladder sludge
http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Dog-And-Its-Gallbladder&id=1189915
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=591378&sk=&date=&pageID=4

Kidney Mineralization
From all the things I can seem to find online this an be helped with diet?.?
Dr. Purcell doesn't want to change too many things with Boriss right now. Wants to get the Cushing's under control. She thinks the Dry Senior Nutro diet I am feeding Boriss is good.
http://www.hillsvet.com/pdf/en-us/P9487_Kidney_FAQ.pdf

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

The Nutro you are feeding now is infinitely better than anything Hill's Science Diet has to offer. Hill's, including their prescription line, is mostly corn and sodium - fine for cows, not so good for dogs. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Good to know! I see all these website for hills diet & the things they claim to do. example heal kidneys... :rolleyes:

I guess until I reach the point I can cook for them myself I will stick with the Nutro Senior since it is low fat.
His treats are frozen green beans with the occasional dog biscuit.

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Everyone..

I went & addressed all my concerns today with the IMO. So far she is one of the best vets I think I have ever had.

She went thru the ultra sound images with me.

I am not as worried about the kidney now. I saw the image & you can almost not even see the mineralization. Just a little bit of shadowing. She just took note of it & will continue to make sure it stays good.

The gallbladder sludge is not bad & should get better when we start the treatment.

The spleen she will be keeping an eye on as well. At this point there is not concern there.

Picked up our emergency prednisone & now we are just waiting for the trilostane to get here that we ordered. Should be starting treatment on Saturday. I wanted to wait & start on a day when I could be home with him to see if he has any bad reactions to the pill.

I'm nervous about the possible side affects.. but, so ready to get the ball rolling on this.

I will keep you posted when we get started. ;)

[Steph n' Ella]

Sounds like a great appointment! So happy for you and Boriss!

[labblab]

Amy, I'm so glad you got your questions answered. Your vet really does sound wonderful! :)

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

thanks Ya'll
At this point I couldn't be more pleased. Well unless she made a magic cure for all our pups. :rolleyes:

[Squirt's Mom]

WOOHOO! Sounds like all systems GO! :D

[BreeandDaisy]

Sorry to add my two cents late in the game. First of all, welcome. I think you will find this board a great resource both informationwise and emotionally.

Just to backtrack about me, last December my malti-poo, Daisy, developed Cushings. Hers came on like a train wreck. One week her blood work (for her heart) showed nothing, and three weeks later she had Cushings with enlarged liver and adrenal glands. It took us about 3 months to get her meds right and, possibly because she had a myriad of health issues before hand, she was difficult to keep stable. Other than the drinking and peeing, her main symptom was hair loss.

About the time she got stable, my Havanese, Bree was diagnosed with Cushings. In his case, he had had an elevated enzyme for about 8 years which I was told was a precursor to Cushings. The vet talked to me about symptoms (hence how I moved quickly with Daisy) but it was a long time in coming. Bree always had a bit of a pot belly (even going on lengthy walks daily - around 5km!) which I attribute to that. His meds were bang on the first try and other than peeing a few times a week in the house, his main symptom is the weakening of his hind legs (which could possibly be arthritis but I am guessing is Cushings.

I want you to know that although Cushings is difficult to deal with, it is not a death sentence for your dog. Your dog will still play, and eat, and kiss you, etc. Sadly, Daisy has passed away, but she did not pass away from Cushings. In fact, a month before she died her pancreas had enlarged, and after 4 days at the vet's, she was well enough to come home. In my case, again she went in for her regular heart bloodwork three weeks after the pancreatis and was diagnosed with a fast onset of dementia. I had suspected she was developing it but the vet actually said it was really bad and she should be put to sleep. (being stubborn I actually brought her home for two weeks, she brightened up, and then really declined).

Not all dogs with Cushings die of Cushings. I know how difficult it is to learn your dog has it but there have been advances in medications etc. Due to Daisy's prior health problems my vet gave her a one year prognosis, but with Bree, I have a 2 -3 year prognosis which given his breed and other factors, is what I would have expected even if he did not have Cushings!

I hope this is of some comfort to you. I know I rambled a bit, but I wanted to give you the full low down I experienced. I know many dogs in our dog park who have had Cushings for a while and are still happy and active.

Shari

[molly muffin]

I'm glad you have a plan that you are comfortable with and a vet that you feel good with too. Those are all really important items. It's great to get those questions answered so you Can move forward.

Awesome job!
hugs,
Sharlene

[3bostons]

That is great that you are getting the answers you need. It is hard to pin these vets down sometimes and get all the info out of them we need. I know they are busy but they must know all the questions that come with cushings.
We are glad for you and Boriss !

hugs Kona and Deb

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks everyone.. It is really only because of this forum that I can feel positive about this. :) You guys rock! :D

Shari.. Nice to meet you. I don't know how you did it.. seriously!! 2 dogs with cushing's at the same time. I can not feel sorry for myself any longer. ;)

I am sorry to hear about your baby Daisy. :(
I will be starting the meds this weekend. I hope Boriss will be lucky like Bree & continue on with his life as planned.:D

The good thing is he is already starting to be in a better mood & has picked up toys a couple of times this week & played with his sister. All before we have even started the meds!! I guess he already knows I am on the way to making his life better.:D:D

Thanks EVERYONE!!

[Boriss McCall]

Quick question for my future orders of Trilostane. If they come in
10 mg., 30 mg., 60 mg., and 120 mg. capsules & Boriss is on 20mg. to start out. Instead of getting it compounded why couldn't I just get 2 orders of the packaged 10mg & give him 2 capsules at a time?

Just curious why people don't do that? I am guessing maybe the cost or is there other reasons?

[labblab]

Hi Amy,

There's no reason at all why you can't give two 10 mg. capsules of Vetoryl at a time. And you're right, if a dog is prescribed a dose that can be fulfilled with a combination of Vetoryl capsules, the two reasons why people opt instead for compounded trilo are cost and also convenience (for dogs who are picky about taking meds, owners may want to limit the number of pills/capsules that have to be given).

For what it's worth, my own personal opinion is that if I could afford the cost, I'd prefer to give brandname Vetoryl to my dog when first starting treatment. A couple of recent studies have shown that products from some compounders may not offer as consistent a dose as Vetoryl. Since it sounds as though your first order is compounded trilostane, I don't tell you this to make you fret. But it's just a general comment, and something you may want to discuss further with your specialist. Since she has had such a good track record with her trilostane patients, though, it sounds as though she has found a compounder in whom she has confidence.

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Marianne..

I sure wish I would have thought to ask her that in the beginning. She has been happy thus far with Wedgewood Pharmacy out of New Jersey. I know she has 2 dogs using them right now who are doing really good with their treatment. But, she was also willing to go anywhere I wanted to for the compound.

I have the same train of thought as you. I wish I would have stuck to the packaged version & given 2 pills. Maybe if he ends up on 30mg I can switch him to Vetoryl or even switch him with next months supplies if he levels out at 20mg. Not sure if that would mess up treatment. But, for now I will just go with what we have & be happy about it.

One last question. When I start him on the Trilostane Saturday morning if I am going to see side affects how fast does that usually start happening? I will go back to work on Monday & want to figure out if that will be okay to leave him alone after 2 days of this new medication. If not maybe I can bring him to work with me. :D I wish..

[Boriss McCall]

I lied.. ONE more question. I give my dogs K9 Advantix (which I know some people are against). But, my bulldog is VERY allergic to flea bites. She gets crazy breakouts & swelling. We always have to rush her to the ER.
Anyway.. They are both due for their dose of Advantix this week. This won't mix bad with the Trilostane or cushing's disease will it?

[molly muffin]

Not sure about the Advantix.

Just reading here, it seems to be a couple days before signs can start in if there is going to be a problem. I figure by day 10 it is time for the next ACTH test to check levels. I'll let those who have been down this road already answer based upon their own experiences.

So, basically I'm just saying hi. LOLOL

hugs,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

hee hee.. :p I will take HI! :) Hi to you as well.

Thanks for the info. I am scheduling the test for 10 days for sure. :)

I guess I will probably be a nervous nellie everyday I go to work until we get this all running smooth. If only he was small enough to fit in my purse. :rolleyes:

[molly muffin]

If you figure out how to minaturize them, that would be extremely helpful. LOL
I think the vet and Dechra says 12 - 14 days to test. So I'd go with day 12 for the test. I just notice that day 10 seems to be a day that people start to see good and bad and that even though day 30, things can change and doses can need adjustment. Many times you'll go a couple months even and then something will change and the dose will need adjusted again. So, nerves of steel my dear, nerves of steel. This is one of those long haul operations. We've got YEARS of doing this. ROFL!
See, aren't you glad to know that you're going to have us all around for a long time to come. hahaha

hang in there! we'll do that wrapping arms together thing and go in strong.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

Okay.. while you are on vacation I will work on a shrink gun for our pups. We will be able to take them EVERYWHERE with us!!

Good to know. So, I will schedule out 12 days instead of the ten for the test. thanks! have a blast on vacay.

[Boriss McCall]

Just for record keeping I set my alarm today for 7am.. got up & gave Boriss breakfast & his first Trilostane pill. :o So far so good!:)
Guess I will never get to sleep in on the weekend again. :rolleyes::eek:

Last night I made the stupid mistake of just doing a little more web searching on Cushing's. I came across a vet talking about how he has treated more cases of Cushing's than most vets will ever see. He also said there is pretty much a 2 year expiration date. :( I wish I had not read that crap! :mad:
Said something about dogs usually do really good the first 2 years on the meds & then things start happening. So, here I am marking Boriss's first day on the pill to prove that guy wrong!! ;)

[addy]

Oh Amy, dont read that stuff, ban it from your mind.;););););)

Today is the first day of Boriss getting to feel better, think of it that way instead. I remember how scared I was that first week. It gets easier, it really does. We get scared because we are worried we will miss something, we fear the unknown. We dont know how our pups will do on the Trilostane. I spent months getting Zoe's colitis under control. She flared after the first few Trilostane doses, her cortsiol dropped like a down of bricks. All I kept thinking was "all that work, months of work, down the drain". Leslie told me to think of it as a bump in the road. Turned out that is what it was.

It will be okay, just remember to breathe.:):):):):)

hugs

[Tina]

Hi Amy,

I agree with Addy completely. I was terrified when Jasper started on Lysodren. I had to think of it like it was the beginning of him feeling better. Even though he has been having a tough time lately, I still fear the long term effects of raging cortisol on his body too much to not want to continue with his treatment plan, if his cortisol recovers this time.

And that 2 year thing - I bawled when I read that. I believe it was a vet's website or something that I saw it on too. I was scared, but asked my vet about it immediately. She said very strongly "I would disagree with that". She said she has dogs who have been under treatment for many years, some for 6 or more years. I put that out of my mind right away.

How is Boriss doing tonight?

Hugs,

Tina and Jasper

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Friends!
Today has been the best day!! I decided we would all keep busy to not think about things. I took the dogs for a 30 minute walk this morning. Then in the afternoon we went on a ride with the jeep top off. They LOVED it! :)

Boriss has been drinking, eating & happy all day!

I don't know if after one day I would/should notice anything different. But, the water bowl is not empty tonight like it usually is by the end of the day. Infact it is half empty. Is that normal? I know he is still drinking water because I have seen him go over to the bowl. Also NO accidents today. He had 3 yesterday before we started the pills.

Maybe he is just having a good day. I can't imagine the drugs working already.

So far so good! I plan on us having another busy day tomorrow. Boriss & Pearl are sacked out right now while we watch tv. They are tired pups!

I hope your babies are having a good night as well. :)
Oh & I agree I need to just stop reading all that scary stuff now that I found you guys to lean on. ;) Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Boriss McCall]

i take that back.. he had 1 accident just now. but, that is still better than 3!:p

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

When Squirt went to the vet this week, we got to talking about her age and how long ago she was diagnosed with Cushing's (in '08). Her vet said that she is a "miracle" because everything he has read since taking her on says they just don't make it much past the 2-year mark. I just looked at him, smiled, and said, "That is a myth, doc. I know of pups who lived 12 years after diagnosis and have friends now with pups who have been diagnosed 5, 6, 8 years ago and are doing fine. The vast majority of the pups on our Cushing's site do not pass from the disease but from conditions/events unrelated to Cushing's."

"Then why does all the literature say 2-years?"

Here are some reasons - 1) Parents simply can't or won't take on treatment. 2) Parents aren't educated by their vets as to what to look for in the event of a crisis. 3) Most pups aren't diagnosed until well into their senior or geriatric years. 4) Many vets themselves do not understand Cushing's or its treatments. 5) Vets are taught the dogs will only live 2 years so they don't fight for them. 6) I suspect many of the cases making up that statistic also fall into the category of "death unrelated to Cushing's" but without an necropsy (animal autopsy) the cause was laid at the feet of Cushing's. 7) That data is out of date.

I went on to tell him that most of the pups I know of live out their normal life span or beyond because the care given them extends to every facet of their lives. The parents who can and do tackle Cushing's with knowledgeable vets backing them go that extra mile which makes their pups healthier all the way around. We don't just poke drugs down their throats, we focus on their overall health, their diets, their exercise, their mental health, and make sure our babies enjoy life.

We are the living proof that statistic is wrong. And Boriss is going to add to the fallacy of the myth. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

Leslie, I cant agree more.

When I commented to our IMS about things Zoe can no longer do and that I feel sad about that, she told me- we all are getting older and cannot do things we used to do, Zoe is getting older too but look at it this way, with all her problems, we have kept her going and happy for another year; in the midst of all her problems, she is still here. Be happy about that. So I am:D:D:D:D

Point is- sometimes the drugs are not miracle drugs that turn back the clock on our pups so we don't have our dog as she or he was a few years ago but we do have our dogs enjoying life, maybe just a bit slower and differently sometimes.:D:D:D:D:D

Zoe is not the same as she was 2 1/2 years ago when she was first diagnosed but then, neither am I or hubby;);););););););)

Go kick butt Boriss:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Boriss McCall]

[QUOTE=Squirt's Mom;82003]Hi Amy,


"Then why does all the literature say 2-years?"

Here are some reasons - 1) Parents simply can't or won't take on treatment. 2) Parents aren't educated by their vets as to what to look for in the event of a crisis. 3) Most pups aren't diagnosed until well into their senior or geriatric years. 4) Many vets themselves do not understand Cushing's or its treatments. 5) Vets are taught the dogs will only live 2 years so they don't fight for them. 6) I suspect many of the cases making up that statistic also fall into the category of "death unrelated to Cushing's" but without an necropsy (animal autopsy) the cause was laid at the feet of Cushing's. 7) That data is out of date.

This makes me feel GOOD! I needed to hear it just one more time. ;)
That is totally what this vet was doing in the thread I read. If the dog needed any other surgeries or treatment he was saying things to the owner like.. think about the cost involved this is a sick dog that probably won't live long.. basically why waste your time making the dog better is what I read. Jerks!! even people dying can have hope.. There are so many things out of human control. ;)

Addy you are right.. At least Boriss is still faster than me on our walks. I know I could not run like him. :p I am considering myself REALLY LUCKY because Boriss doesn't have any other health conditions & not really any severe Cushing's symptoms at this point either.

Today WILL be a good day. I hope everyone gets to enjoy life & their pups today. I am going to see if I can tire them out again today.

We always used to say a good Bulldog & Boston Terrier are a tired Bullie & BT.. Otherwise they are both usually hyper & getting into mischief together. :rolleyes::p

[sunshinehoman]

I read all that stuff on 2 years also and was devastated!! But now I know that information is incorrect and will do everything to prove it!

Sunshine is on Day 12 of Vetoryl and she is doing fine so far! I have been keeping a short daily journal of her signs and actions, and that has helped me greatly!! I would strongly suggest it! It is really amazing how we forget the little things from day to day and going back an being able to read what was going on from day one is great!

I basically just write how much food she ate, approx how much water, as I have 2 dogs so cant always tell, her consistency of stools, if she had accidents or not, and if her signs are the same or changed.
I also take a quick picture of her each day and throw that in my computer file on (progress) and then I can physically see if her pot belly is going away or not :)

I brought all this info to my vet also and that way he could read her progress and I didn't have to try and think what was happening!! The vet loved it! I was a little embarrassed and thought I might be a tad neurotic but the vet said this was amazing and he loved the day to day pictures matching the day to day progress that way he could see it with his own eyes!!

Hope this helps

Shannon & Sunshine

[Nikki]

I'm glad to hear that yesterday was a good day!! They must of loved the walk and the ride in the jeep!! I know all 3 of my Bostons love car rides SO much!! I don't know much about how quickly the meds can work but it's great that he is already drinking less and not having as many accidents!! :)

[Boriss McCall]

Shannon thanks for all the great tips! Boriss's journal is now started.:)

So far everything is still running smooth. Today I am back at work. I hate leaving him alone. I feel so much better when I have him in my sight. :o

Thanks Nikki I do believe my pups enjoyed their weekend. Seemed like by last night they were ready for us to go back to work so they could nap again. I kept them really busy all weekend. :D

[Bo's Mom]

Boriss is so cute!!

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks! I kind of like him. ;)

Bo looks like a sweetheart! My first dog was a toy poodle named FiFi. She was the most loyal dog. My parents got her for me when I was little because I was afraid to sleep in my bed alone at night. She was there for me EVERY night until I was in high school. Love those dogs.

[Boriss McCall]

I guess I like to talk a lot. :o I just noticed it says senior member next to my name. :D

I noticed something a little off with Boriss today. Day 3 of Trilo.

He seems to be more of a butt sitter now. He has always occasionally done that. But, it seems like in the last 3 days that is the only way he appear to sit.

Also his stance seems a little different. Like his hind legs are further extended.

I realize that muscle wasting is part of the cushing's thing. But, he hasn't had much muscle wasting. Why would the medicine make that more visible or seem to make that happen?
Does Trilo eventually affect the way the move their legs?

He is still jumping on the sofa & a running around the room like a normal dog would.

[Boriss McCall]

Happy Saturday!

Today is day 8 of Boriss on Trilo. Things are going great so far. He is not eating his food in one inhale. but, he is still super hungry in the evening & shopping around the floor for crumbs.

He has gone 2 days without having an accident!! :D

Water in take has gone from 8 cups to 5.5 cups between the 2 dogs each day.

We are starting to see our little guy brighten back up. More butt wags & seems happier in general. yay!!:D

I am crossing my fingers we don't end up having to up his 20mg dose. But, if we do it will be okay.

Have a great weekend everyone!;)

[Squirt's Mom]

Great news, Amy! :D Keep up the good work!

[addy]

This is all great news!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Keeping fingers crossed for next stim.

[Boriss McCall]

He is scheduled for the 20th. 13 days after his first pill. I am really happy so far.

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss is going in on Thursday to do his test. The IMO wants me to bring him in fasted in case she needs to run other test. Will that be okay for me to give him his meds & then she run the test for 4 hours later on an empty stomach?

[Maya]

As far as I know, in order to be properly absorbed, Trilostane needs to be given with food.

[labblab]

Amy, Leah is right -- according to expert endocrinologist Dr. Mark Peterson, ACTH results will actually be invalidated if trilstane is given on an empty stomach on the morning of the test:

http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/03/whats-best-protocol-for-acth.html

Even though it is inconvenient, perhaps you could return Boriss on another day for additional testing if it needs to be done after fasting. Or maybe you can strike a compromise of giving him at least a small meal with his trilo. Do take a look at this link, and then I'd encourage you to discuss the issue further with your IMS in advance of the test.

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Leah & Marianne,

I will definitely feed him first & let her know I will bring him back for further test. Better safe than sorry..

I have a feeling the tech that was fielding the phone call told me the wrong thing. Glad I have you guys to check things like this with. :)

Thank You!

[Boriss McCall]

Here's my kids Boriss & Pearl from summer 2010. :)
Hope everyone is having a happy Thursday. Boriss is getting his test today.:):) Crossing fingers for all things good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-UPqUW3ZE&feature=plcp

[3bostons]

Hi Boriss and Amy,
We are hoping your tests go great today, cant wait to hear the good news !

Hugs, kona and deb

[FrecklesMom]

Ok that you tube is too cute! LOL Is that a french bulldog with Boriss? Hope tests look good today!

Hugs, freckles and diane

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks ya'll...
Boriss was pretty upset when we turned the corner onto the vet's street this morning. Guess I will have to change the route up on him next time.:D

Pearl is an Old English Bulldog. She is our baby girl. ;) She is 2 & FULL of energy. We are hoping to rescue a frenchy one of these days.

My husband & I just love the squishy face dogs I guess. :D

[Boriss McCall]

Does anyone else feed their dog Acana Light & Fit?

I think we are slowly going to switch Boriss over to this since it is only 11% fat & 39% protein.

Wondering if anyone has an opinion on dry dog food? I read that this is one of the better ones. Wish I could cook for my dogs everyday.

I can't even cook for myself..:p

[Maya]

I feed Maya Buffalo Blue senior..when she'll eat it! The fussy little bugger wants chicken nowadays. She got used to being spoiled rotten and is absolutely milking it at the moment! She knows that I am weak and I put up no resistance....:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

Acana is one of the best feeds out there! Good choice! Hope he likes it and does well on it.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks! we are going to make the switch SUPER slow. He has a brand new bag of his old senior food so we are going to get a small bag of Acana & sprinkle some in over the next couple months.

I totally know what you mean about spoiling... When Boriss is having a extra hungry bad day I can't resist those sad eyes. He ends up getting a little more than he should. :o

I am hoping once the pills take full effect & we get the right amount of milligrams for him I won't see those sad hungry eyes as often.

[Steph n' Ella]

I've been letting Ella crunch on some ice cubes as a "treat" in-between meal time. With her house training issues...treats only for going potty outside!

[Boriss McCall]

Good idea! we have been using frozen green beans. He loves them. I sure hope I don't have to re-potty train him after all this. But, if that is the least I have to do I will be grateful.

[Steph n' Ella]

Ella's never lived in a house before (she was in a kennel for her first 8 years) so this house training thing is very new to her. :/

[Boriss McCall]

Oh yeah! I did read her story. You are such a WONDERFUL person for taking that sweet girl in. I can see how that would be difficult. I am so happy she will be treated with love the rest of her life. :)

[molly muffin]

Boriss is just to smart. Now he knows the way to the vets! LOL

Loved the video, how cute those two are.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Nikki]

I just watched your YouTube video. Boriss has such a sweet face!!!!! Him and Pearl are just so precious! :)

[Boriss McCall]

Ha Sharlene he is too smart for his own good sometimes. :p I hope he doesn't ever learn how to spit out pills when I hide them in treats.:eek:

Thanks Nikki.. Girl my heart has been aching for you all day.:( I wish I could give you & little Max a real hug.:(
I am hoping for you & your boyfriend to have some peaceful & loving days with Max in the months to come.

[Tina]

Oh my gosh Amy, I love the video. They are both so cute!! And I have been meaning to tell you how cute your avatar pic is also. I can see who is in charge in your home. ;) I hope Boriss' test results come back good.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[Boriss McCall]

thanks Tina! you are so right... My husband & I are ruled by these two dogs. :p:eek::eek::p Of course I wouldn't have it any other way. There is nothing like the love a person can get from a dog.;)

[Tina]

Indeed, there is absolutely nothing like it. Dogs are the best!! My pups definitely rule in my house as well. I have a plaque on the wall in my dining room that says "A house is not a home without a dog". So true.

[Boriss McCall]

so so true! I had no idea until we got one. ;)

[melindamorrison]

One more question.. or maybe a lot more..

Is anyone in the Dallas, TX recommended for treatment?

My first visit has been with Sally Purcell, DVM, DACVIM
with Hillside Vet Clinic
are you in the dallas area? i'm in flower mound. i'm thinking my dog has cushings

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Melinda,
Yes. I live in the Whiterock lake area near downtown. We are lucky here in our area. Seems to be a lot of good specialist coming from the school at Texas A&M. I love the specialist that Boriss is going to. We just started treatment. She did all the proper test before he was diagnosed. Make sure you do that. Honestly as soon as he did his senior blood panels & they said his levels were high after that point I didn't even bother wasting my time or money with a normal vet. The specialist is the way to go. I know it costs more.. but, I really feel like I saved money going straight to her instead of poking around ideas with a vet for months & months. Cushing's is such a tricky disease which I am sure you read on this forum. You definitely don't want to end up with a doctor that will misdiagnosis your dog. I did as much research as possible to figure out what I was going to be dealing with. I had never even heard of Cushing's before all of this.

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss got his numbers back. They are a little odd so the IMO had the lab check them twice.

Pre ACTH 6.2 normal range Pre 2-6
Post ACTH 5.2 normal range post 6-18

We are going to continue on with the 20mg dose for 2 more weeks. If he is still test with high numbers when will up his dose after the next test.

I kind of knew this was going to be the case cause he is still fairly hungry & has occasional accidents in the last 2 weeks.

But, over all we are seeing great improvement in his symptoms & he seems much more happy.:)

[Boriss McCall]

also she did a urine test.. I know I am going to butcher the medical terms of this so please correct me if you know.:p

His cretion levels still aren't were they need to be. They have only slightly improved. But, she thinks we will see that change in the next 2 weeks or when we up the dosage.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

With Trilo the post range is between 1.45 to 5.4 ug/dl so Boriss' post number, the one that counts, looks good to me as long as the signs are better controlled. The range given on the test, 6-18, is the normal range for NON-cush pups, not pups who are on treatment. This confusion has caused some trouble when vets have based dose changes on the ranges for normal dogs, not a treated one. So I wanted to be sure you were aware of the correct normal post range for a Trilo pup. BTW, that range is different from the one for pups on Lysodren as well. ;)

Further info on standarized herbs - when it says standardized to 20%, that means that each dose contains 20% of the active constituents. So, for example, those of us who use flax lignans to get the SGD our pups need will find the lignans are standardized to 20% so each pill/capsule only contains 20% SGD. In order to get the full dose our babies need, we have to use more than one capsule. Here is how the math works for the lignans standardized to 20% -

40 mg capsule = 20% lignans (SDG)
20% is 1/5 of 100% (or 100 divided by 20 = 5)
40 mg divided by 5 = 8 mg lignans (SDG)
Each 40 mg capsule contains 8 mg lignans (SDG)

Hope this helps!


Keep up the good work!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Leslie!
We are still seeing some symptoms so hopefully giving it 2 more weeks those will go away. Over all I am pleased with the treatment so far.

Knowing me I am retelling it all wrong...:D:rolleyes: But, I think she had the lab recheck the results because usually the Post number is higher than the pre number in most cases? If that doesn't make sense than I am sure I heard her wrong.

She is the best IMO I could ask for! I feel like Boriss is in really good hands.

[molly muffin]

Well I think those numbers sound pretty good. :)
I'm so glad to hear that Boriss continues to do well on the treatment plan. Maybe you won't have to change anything. Just see how the next couple of weeks go.

whew, into the weekend. Everyone have a good one!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Sharlene!
I am going to keep the faith that he will improve in the next 2 weeks. :D

You have a great weekend too.. I am ready to be home & relax!

[addy]

Zoe had one ACTH test where the pre was a bit higher than the post.
Could be stress.

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Addy
Good to know. He definitely did not want to go to the vet again.:rolleyes:

[3bostons]

I know what you mean, I think when i put Kona in the car now she gets that look like "uh oh, where are we going" Then when we get to the vets office she walks in like a trooper but heads right for the exit door :p Its like ok, I made it but Im gonna leave now:)
poor kiddo !
hugs kona and deb

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss didn't have the best of days yesterday. Is it normal for symptoms to go up & down during the first 30 days or I guess we might end up upping his dosage? :eek:

He has been doing so good. Between both of my dogs they have been drinking about 5-6.5 cups of water each day since Boriss started his treatment. Down from about 8.5-9 cups each day.

Yesterday they drank 8 cups & Boriss had 3 accidents in the house. :(
He is still doing good with his hunger at least.

Does that mean that the trilo was just not suppressing well yesterday?

We go back the first week of October for another test. I guess if he doesn't level out his symptoms by then we will be cranking up the meds a bit.

[molly muffin]

Things can go up and down during the 30 days period. Just see how his test results are. I know from reading on the board, but you can be stable for months on a dose and then have to switch it up or down. But it is the test that will really tell if an adjustment is needed, even more than the symptoms once you are on the medicine from what I've read here.

Does he still think he is starving too?

hugs,
Sharlene♦

[Boriss McCall]

Hi Sharlene,

Thankfully no.. he eats slower now & the food thing is SO much better. I couldn't handle that very much longer. He would literally lay in the kitchen for HOURS wanting food even if we weren't in there. If he wasn't laying on the kitchen floor he was looking around the carpet for stuff to eat.

I can deal with the accidents if we have to.. but, I am more than relieved that the hunger pains have stopped. :D

I guess I just need to relax.. it hasn't even been a month yet. :D

I was just curios because he was doing so good since almost the first day we gave him the pill. I am guessing it takes time to get the other stuff all perfect & maybe yesterday he was just having a bad day.

[molly muffin]

Yea, I totally hope it was just a tricky day for him. I think you need to see consistent water intake increase before you start worrying too much. The water intake being up will cause the accidents to be more frequent of course, but once he is at a steady intake, they should decrease. You might have to do the take him outside more frequently and a treat when he goes outside for a bit to get him back on track. Just remember, an once for body weight is about where he should be.

You'll get there. :) I have faith in Boriss and you!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Each dog is different. There are days I am sure Zoe's cortisol is higher, then days I think it is lower. Her cortisol alternated by a few points without even changing her dose. I really believe the hormones can fluctuate, I have seen it with my Zoe.

A dog can have a great ACTH test and still have symptoms as well.

You just started treatment, it has not been that long. After awhile, you will probably see more of a pattern.

You are doing great!!!

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Addy & Sharlene,
I guess the other day was just a off day. Yesterday he was good & the water intake was less. He only had 1 accident. So, we are back on track.:D

So if he is 27lbs He should be drinking 27 ounces of water each day? I am going to try to figure out between the 2 dogs who is drinking what wait wise. I am thinking 6 cups is just about right between the two.

Also on Trilo is the normal range 1mg per body weight? Right now he is at 20mg. But, if his test don't come back in the correct range & he is still having accidents & high water intake I am going to see if she will bump up his meds to 26mgs instead of going straight up to 30mg.

Thanks Ya'll.. Hope everyone is having a good week.

[3bostons]

Hi Amy, Kona has been on the trilo now for just over a month and in the last week I started seeing some days drinking more water and some days increase in urination, then the next day would seem normal too. Its so hard to know how these guys are feeling. I just started her increase to 15 in the am but still leaving at 10 in the pm. I had reservations about doing the increase becasue of some days seeming good but I guess it was the days of being more thirsty that finally convinvced me that it was time to do the increase. Its so exhausting just knowing that this may never be "normal" again and will always have to wait and wonder and watch and worry :(
Hope little Boriss is doing good today :)
hugs kona and deb

[molly muffin]

I think it is 1mg per 1 lb body weight. So maybe 25 if you have to go up? That's still an if! LOL

hugs,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

yes Sharlene I am going to keep the "IF" in place. Hopefully we won't have to go up. But, if we do I know it will be okay. I have all of you guys to hold my hand. ;)

Deb.. my guess is until they get the proper dose this is what we will see in our babies. I hope Kona is doing good with the increase. I know it has to be super scary for you since you are so far away from the vet.:eek:

So far so good with Boriss. :)

[3bostons]

Hi Amy, glad to hear Boriss is doing good so far, Kona says YEA!! :D
I agree its going to be alot of up and down until we get this right, and yes my big fear is always that the vet is so far away especially with winter driving just around the corner :(
But so far so good for kona too, so we will keep on this path !

hugs, kona and deb

[Boriss McCall]

This is going to be tricky.. cause Boriss was already a "puker". Which from my experience is not odd for him or a boston terrier. My IMO said her Boston does the same thing.

But, He just puked all over the bed. I think he might have thrown up his food from early this morning. By the time I realized he was alone in the bed room the little hot mess already ate all the puked food back up.:eek: Sorry if this is too much info. :p

He is acting normal & still hungry & drinking water. Should I be worried from just one time throwing up? I am guessing if he doesn't have diarrhea or throw up again he is probably okay?

His next text is scheduled for this coming Wednesday. Which will be his 26th day on Trilostane.

[Boriss McCall]

Also he is NOT lethargic at all. He just ran a couple of laps around the sofa chasing our bulldog.:p

[molly muffin]

Boriss! LOL Causing your mom such worries. :) :)
Molly will puke when she eats her food too fast and basically just chew it, just snarfs it down. It could take awhile or it could be instantaneous but you know because it's whole junks that come up and yep, she does the same thing, I think most dogs do, just re-eats it.
I'd say he's not doing too badly if he is running laps. LOL
Molly has been acting all puppish too since I started her on that Hepto Supplement, which has vitamin B in it plus the milk thistle.
Hope you are having a fabulous weekend.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss can be a total SPAZ when he feels like it. :p
It is nice to see him doing that again & I know my bulldog loves it. She is constantly trying to get attention from him lately.

I am sure he just did just gobble his food down yesterday like Molly does.
That is awesome that the Hepto is working. I might have to try that. I am just a little leery of the milk thistle now. The first & last time we gave it to Boriss he seemed allergic to it. Maybe I will try it again in a smaller dose to see what happens. Probably wait until he is leveled out with the Trilo.

This has been a great cuddle weekend. It has been raining all weekend in Texas. We needed it. The grass was getting a little crunchy. Of course as soon as fall came it heated up around here.:rolleyes:

[molly muffin]

Yikes, if Boriss had a reaction to the milk thistle then don't give him the hepto support because it does contain milk thistle.
Glad you are having a cuddle weekend. Those are so precious and so wonderful to find some down time and sanity in the midst of all our busy lives. :) Enjoy!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

It is time for me to give my dogs their flea & tic meds again. We normally use Advantage Plus tic & flea.

I am curious to know what others use? Is there really a good natural way that really works?

One of my dogs is highly allergic to flea bites so I can't mess around with her treatment. But, if there is something else that works just as good that is less extreme maybe I will try it.

[goldengirl88]

Boriss:
I read somewhere that they should not have flea and tick meds because of their comprimised immune systems. My vet told me to stop the flea treatment- Frontline. I just thought you could check it out and see if it is a legitimate concern. My best to you and the babies.

[Boriss McCall]

So did you start using something else in it's place?

Anyone else have other treatments they use?

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss had a bile puking spell this evening. I called the vet & we are bumping his ACTH test up a day to tomorrow.

I think he is ok. He still ate his dinner after he puked. He isn't acting lethargic. But, I guess you never know. Better safe than sorry.

Unless he has another spell tonight I plan on giving him his Trilo in the morning as usual before his test.

Boriss just wanted to keep me on my toes today & make me a nervous nelly.:eek:

I am afraid I might have unleash a spoiled monster... we always feed him dry food that I wet with beans or sometimes just water. Tonight after he threw up I wanted to make sure he was still eating. So, I opened up a can of the wet food that is a version of his dry food.
He LOVED it. Right now he won't leave the kitchen because he thinks he needs more.:rolleyes:

[addy]

Hope things go well tomorrow, Amy.

I wish it were something simple like a pepcid or more frequent meals for the bile vomit. My Koko did that (non Cush pup) and since I took him of dry food and give him a snack before bed, he stopped.

With the Vetoryl, though, you never know. Zoe never throws up and when I tried giving her Pecid, she threw up:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hugs,

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Addy!
I always forget about Pepcid. I might have to start giving him some. He has always been some what of a bile vomiter. Although until today he hasn't had any spells in a while.

Maybe when I get to switch him to Acana dog food he will get better with his bile. I am hoping to start slowly making the switch next month.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Amy,

I used Advantage Multi on all my babies, Squirt included, which handles fleas, heart worms and some internal parasites. She is on Lysodren tho and that may make a difference.

I have often used a product called Comfortis with strays/rescues that are covered in fleas - fleas are all it works on but it works fast and very good. Within 30 min. all the fleas are dead and are falling off.

I hope Boriss had a good nite and has a good morning - no more vomiting, young man! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Leslie,

I am going to give Comfortis a try. He already takes a separate heartworm pill. I will just have to be careful about tics. Maybe in the spring I will switch back for a few months. I just hate pumping harsh chemicals into his little body.

No more puking. yay.. I guess he was just having an upset stomach yesterday.

I dropped him off this morning for his ACTH test. So we shall see where he is at.

I mentioned to her about maybe giving him his dose in the morning 15mg & then maybe an extra 5mg in the evening.
He does so good all day. But, once we hit the 12 hour mark he has an accident & drinks more almost every day.

[sunshinehoman]

I use comfortis for Sunshine, she is allergic to any kind of liquid medicine that you put on their back. She is doing fine with that along with the heartguard and Vetoryl :)

Shannon & Sunshine

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Shannon!
Boriss is really sensitive to the liquid back meds as well. I am sure he will be super happy that I am switching. :)

[goldengirl88]

Boriss:
How is the baby doing after the vomiting? I hope he is better. I am glad you asked about the flea meds as I do not have anything on Tipper right now, and she is not having a problem. We keep her out of any high grass, and only walk her on the road. We were more or less just trying our luck at using none. I wonder where you get the Comfortis? I was going to use brewers yeast, but thought it could skew her testing somehow?? Hope Boriss has a better day today.

[Boriss McCall]

He was doing good this morning! :D

I guess he just got an upset tummy yesterday. He is at the vet right now getting his 2nd ACTH test done.

I am definitely going to try the Comfortis. I am hoping I can get it at my pet store where I normally buy the flea meds. If not I will probably end up shopping online for it.

One of my dogs Pearl is extremely allergic to fleas. So, we can't risk it at our house. She swells up so bad we end up having to take her to the vet. :eek:

[MBK]

Amy,

What kind of reaction does Boriss have from the flea preventitive applied to their backs? Just curious because I wonder if that could be contributing to Alivia's ichiness. Her's is not on the area of the application, though. All those pesticide type things make me nervous!

[Boriss McCall]

He Just gets really freaked out by the smell & start rolling around like it is bothering him. I can tell he is highly sensitive to it. He can smell it before I even drop it on his back. I can't tell if it is making him itchy or if the smell just takes over his senses. He usually does this weird sneeze thing as if he is trying to get it out of his nose. He doesn't seem to get bothered by where the application is on his back as much as it bothers his nose/face.

My other dog is fine & she doesn't even notice if it is on her.

I am going to get the comfortis & give it a try. Once winter hits (if we get one in Texas that is) I try not to give it to them. I hate all those pesticides as well. They just seem so harsh.

[Squirt's Mom]

I can give ya'll a list of herbs that may help with fleas, if you like. I've not tried any of them nor know anyone personally who has but they are suggested by a couple of vets.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

I am going to give the Comfortis a shot first. I don't trust myself to get a potion right. :p

But, now I know who to bug if the Comfortis doesn't work. :D Thanks Leslie!

[MBK]

Thanks, Amy.

Leslie, I'd love to know any herbal flea preventatives and methods of using them that you have! Can you message me or post them to my thread, please?

[Boriss McCall]

If you post them I will print it out & save it. That way I don't bug you later.;)

[Squirt's Mom]

I'll get that written up for ya'll tonite.

[Boriss McCall]

thank you!

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, here ya go....

One of the key factors in parasites of any kind is the general health of the system. An ill, weakened system will attract more parasites than a healthy, strong system. So one of the most important things to consider is diet and the general health of your baby when the bugs attack. However, here in the south US where I live, I don’t know that there is a system healthy or strong enough to combat all the fleas and ticks and other critters that abound. :rolleyes::D

After a particularly bad infestation of fleas years ago, a vet told me that fleas are drawn to the warmest body temperatures so cats attract more than dogs because their body temp is higher, and any pet that is running fever will attract them. Fleas and ticks are also attracted to light colors so animals with lighter coat colors will typically have more problems than dark coated dogs.

I have provided the info given in the referenced texts but have not done any further research on these. And, as I said earlier, I have not tried any of these myself nor know anyone personally who has. Please research and make sure there are no drug interactions, illnesses that preclude usage, etc. for your babies and talk to your vet before trying any of these. Herbs are drugs in their own right and should be approached with the same caution and awareness of possible effects / interactions / contraindications. The names in (italics) are the Latin names so be sure to double check when researching as the common names can apply to a variety of plants at times, like Ivy. ;)


Ectoparasiticidal herbs –

(the following from Veterinary Herbal Medicine by Susan G. Wynne, DVM, RH (AHG) and Barbara J. Fougere, BSc, BVMS (Hons) MODT, BHSx (Comp Med), CVA( IVAS), CVCP, CV Herb Med, MHSc (Herb Med)

Pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium or Chrysanthemum cinerariifolium)
This is the plant source for pyrethrins, but is NOT pyrethrins.


Chaste Tree (Vitex angus-castus)
Drug interactions = Bromocriptine, dopamine agonists, oral contraceptives, and estrogen replacement therapy

A study found that an extract from the seeds repelled two tick types, flies, mosquitoes, and fleas for about 6 hours. (Mehlhorn 2005)


Neem (Azadirachta indica)
Drug interactions = insulin and oral hypoglycemic agents, glyburide/glibenclamide, and thyroid replacement therapy

Several studies have found Neem effective against fleas and other parasites/pests both alone and with other substances. (Mulla, 1999; Blackwell, 2004; Wandscheer, 2004; Batra, 1998; Mishra, 1995; Su, 1999; Heath, 1995; O’Brien, 1999; Guerrinin, 1998)

Topical directions -

Shampoo - Add 25 ml. of neem oil to 400ml. of shampoo

Dried neem leaf – add 1 cup leaf to 1L of water and bring to a low simmer for 5 min; cool and use as a topical spray


Fleabane (Erigeron canadense)
Applied topically via rubbing plant on fur/clothing or applying extracts.


Labrador Tea (Ledum glandulosum or Ledum latifolium)


Chaulmoogra, Gynocardia (Gynocardia odorata)


Ivy (Hedera helix)
Drug interactions = anticoagulants


(from the Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine, Science and Tradition by Susan G. Wynne, DVM and Steve Marsden, DVM)

Neem, Fleabane and Pyrethrum are listed again, along with garlic and essential oils neither of which is recommended. This source says powdered Pyrethrum flowers are used topically. Diatomaceous earth and sodium polyborate powders are listed for environmental control – caution with diatomaceous earth; it can be irritating to the respiratory system of both you and your pets.

Both authors’ choices are sodium polyborate for environmental control. Marsden first addresses any skin disorder that may be attracting the fleas while Wynne first addresses diet and recommends flea combs.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Boriss McCall]

Thank You so much Leslie! I am going to print this out & study up.

[Boriss McCall]

I got Boriss's test results back today. He still isn't where he needs to be. We are bumping him up to 30mg to see if that gets him level.

I am okay with it. We also decided since he is going to 30mg we are giving him the packaged meds Vetoryl since it is more controlled.

So now to try this for 12-14 days & see how it goes.

She also told me I could add 10mg of pepcid to his meds if he keeps getting upset stomach.

His Urine Creation level was at 10.11 she likes the dogs to be at 10.30.

Since he is still having accidents in the house we are hoping to see an improvement there in the next 12 days.

His ACTH test results: 10/2/12
Pre-ACTH 5.8 UG/DL
Post-ACTH 6.4 ug/dL

Hopefully the higher dosage will do the trick & I will try not to worry. He still has about 3 pills left on his 20mg dose. So, since money does not grow on trees we are going to finish those out & start the 30mg pills on Sunday.

[addy]

Pre ACTH 6.2 normal range Pre 2-6
Post ACTH 5.2 normal range post 6-18


His ACTH test results: 10/2/12
Pre-ACTH 5.8 UG/DL
Post-ACTH 6.4 ug/dL

It does appear he is drifting up from his previous stim.

The pepcid has to be given 30 minutes to an hour prior to the trilostane. Hopefully someone will confirm. Also since you are switching from compounded to name brand, it might affect his tummy differently. Maybe wait on the pepcid? I always hate to change two things at the same time.

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks Addy! I was thinking the same thing. I don't want to overload him. I will wait & see if he has more bile vomiting this next 2 weeks.

Before Cushing's started he has always been somewhat of a vomiter. Hopefully all that will get better before I have to try the pepcid. I am crossing my fingers this 30mg makes him "perfect". :)

[addy]

Amy, I know you will watch Boriss very closely and you know I am the forum worry wart. I am a tad concerned about switching to name brand and adding 10 mgs and am hoping Marianne stops by:D
The numbers are not all that different on the stims.


Once a worry wart, always a worry wart!!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Keep in mind how slow I had to go with my Zoe so I am a worrier sometimes when I need not be. What symptoms are you still seeing?

[molly muffin]

Hey Amy, sorry been away for a few days. So, it's a raise in the medication. Hope that gets you to where you need Boriss to be. Just keep an eye out okay, always with a change. :) Of course you will, duh.. :) :) :)

You keep that little whipper snapper in line now! Tell him I said, no vomiting! It scares his mommy.
LOL

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Boriss McCall]

I will be watching him like a hawk! :)

His symptoms are around 6 or 7pm he starts drinking a lot & usually has an accident in the evening. Even before he started the meds his symptoms were mainly later in the day.

The IMO gave me 2 options.
Either we stick to the Trilo & do 15mg morning & 15mg evening or we test out the Vetoryl with 30mg morning only.

I chose to try the name brand drug because of the more accurate dosage. Also I am trying to think about if we go out of town & a friend keeps him it would be easier if he is dosed once a day.

But, we are doing a trial run the next 12 days. If this is too much for him or if he is still not staying suppressed it the evenings we will go to 2 times a day.

I do see him drinking a lot more in the evenings. He does seem to be still potty trained. But, at this point our carpet is so ruined I am not completely sure if he is having accidents just because of the familiar smell of pee. :eek:

We plan on ripping out the carpet & adding hardwood to that room. But, I was hoping to wait until we got him under control. Also my bullie has decided if he can do it she can do it. She has been having accidents in the house too.. ugh!! I am sure the carpet smells like a giant litter box to her. :rolleyes:

So come Monday I will be a nervous wreck.:eek: But, I think he will be okay. His current weight is 27lbs. So, moving up the 30mg is almost 1mg per pound.

[Steph n' Ella]

I hear you on the carpet! Ella's fav pee spots upstairs is the same place that my cat tends to barf at :rolleyes: So weird! I guess they just get off the bed, go 3 steps...pee or barf!

Then...I got one of those bissle carpet cleaners like Sharlene has. Well I sucked up a bunch of dirt from the spots upstairs and then on my way to dump out the dirty water...my clumsy butt spills all the filthy water back on to the carpet. I GIVE UP! :mad: :D

I think I will also be doing wood floors...the steps are already wood and I could do an area rug in the bedroom. :cool:

[Boriss McCall]

ha..Steph that sounds like the story of my life!:rolleyes:
We have been planning on replacing this carpet forever. But, we keep getting a sick pet & say we will wait.

First 2 elderly cats that liked to poop, pee & puke. RIP.. they were my sweet kiddos for many many many years.

Then our Min-Pin that passed away in July this year got to the point where she was having accidents all the time while she slept. Poor baby.. We got her on the pill for incontinence. She still had accidents when she couldn't hold it.

So, after she passed I was like okay.. I will finally rip up this carpet & start over. Well of course Boriss got Cushings & the peeing started.:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:

So in other words the carpet is & has been a goner for a LONG time. Hopefully the beginning of next year we will rip it out.
I am positive Boriss will be all good by then.:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Like some of our babies, as I am aging I am losing some of my senses. I can't see cobwebs without the aid of a flashlight or other strong light...or some kind soul points them out to me. Dust bunnies so large and dense have come barreling down the hall in my wake that they scared me badly enough I squealed and nearly peed my pants.

Apparently, there is another sense that is slipping...

This summer, it was so hot here that in an effort to save on the electric bill and cut some of the heat coming through the windows I bought some really, really ugly thermal curtains. They helped a great deal, very effective and very ugly...I just don't look at them for very long. The curtains remained closed for quiet some time, making it rather dark in the house, especially the LR.

As the temps and humidity started to drop, I opened the curtains one bright sunny morning. When I turned around the first thing I saw was that my nice new beige carpet now has a yellow pattern on it - irregular circles of various sizes interspersed among looping trails. ~~sigh~~ I had deluded myself into believing I was doing a pretty good job of staying on top of the accidents, which happen often with my bunch, but I was so wrong. :rolleyes: The worst area is one I don't walk through much at all so that explains why I never felt the wet spots but I didn't, and still DON'T, notice an odor at all.

So I have been spot cleaning all week and will have to get that whole room shampooed soon. Life is never boring with babies, huh, ladies? :D

[Boriss McCall]

I SO know what you are talking about.:p

We have had our air conditioner on all summer so the smell wasn't bad. Now that it is cool outside & we don't need it the smell is extreme.:rolleyes:

Oh well.. I love my babies no matter what. I can replace stuff not them. ;)

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss is due for all his shots this month. He also needs Bordetella.
Does anyone know if this is okay since he is just recently started his meds & will be upping his does next week?

Should I get his shots the weekend before his dose change on Monday?

[Maya]

Hiya Amy:) Just thought I'd pop over to see you and Boris. I'm glad things are going well and he is responding well to his treatment. Sometimes the dosage does have to be tweaked here and there and believe me better to have too little trilostane rather than too much! It's best to take things slowly with these kind of drugs and start off on a lower dosage and then work your way up if needed.
I was reading in your thread that you were having problems with Boris peeing on the carpet. Have you tried that Natures Miracle Urine destroyer? It's fantastic-it really does work! It's gets both the smell and stain out! Some of the members here recommended it to me and I'm eternally grateful!:)

Can't tell you about the shots. I stopped getting them done after Maya's Cushings diagnosis, but I can't see them interfering with his medication. See what the vet thinks.
Have a great day!:)
Hugs from Me and Maya

[molly muffin]

:p:p:p Is there anywhere else where people talk as much about pooping and peeing. :p:p:p
I cannot stop laughing. Sorry I know it's not a funny thing when you're living with it, but when you're reading it.... whole different story.

You know the thing about the biseel is if you spill it just suck it up again and go on. :)
I've done that myself. Don't even want to think about the time I turned the thing the wrong way and ended up with pee and water all over my hands and arms. Ooops.

Not sure about the shots. Molly is still having hers, but some places you don't have to get them if not required by law. So would be your call, but a chat with the vet might be good.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Maya]

Maya pees constantly, everywhere and anywhere. Her new nick name is pissy knickers!:D

[Boriss McCall]

Ha. Pissy knickers! Thanks for the tip on the Bissel tip & the cleaner. My 11 year old carpet is such a goner I think I will wait until it is replaced & then be much more diligent with keep the pee off. :rolleyes:

I don't even want to think about pee pee dripping down your arms. lol

We have to get shots here. Unfortunately... just another fun bunch of drugs to pump into our dogs little bodies.

I have started calling Boriss Money Bags/Money Pit (in a very loving way ;)).. Cause he is the most expensive dog now. The million dollar dog!!

I am a little nervous about upping his meds to 30mg.. but the 20mg hasn't been enough for him & luckily no bad reactions so far. So, I feel a little better since we did try the low dosage first to see how he would react. He still has accidents every night & drinks over his fair share of water. Plus last night he was doing his little sniffing around for food on the floor game.

[labblab]

Hi Amy,

I have only an instant to post, but given your description of Boris's behavior in conjunction with his stim results, I am "onboard" as far as the increase to 30 mg. of Vetoryl. ;)

Also, I will come back another time to write more, but if he has been regularly vaccinated up to this point in time and your vet is agreeable, I would at least temporarily hold off on his shots while you are working on getting him stabilized on his medication and his cortisol level under control.

Marianne

[Boriss McCall]

I am going to hold off as long as I can.
We will be out of town several weekends coming up. If we can't take him with us I am hoping a friend will stay with him. But, honestly I don't trust anyone else to keep him with the new dosage starting. Yes.. I am a control freak.:eek:

I am a little uncomfortable with Boriss going to the vet & staying half a day every two weeks with out a kennel cough shot. I would hate to add to his troubles by catching that. Should I at least get that now?

[FrecklesMom]

Hi Borissmom, just checking in to read how Boriss was doing. Freckles also drinks more at night. I have just gotten into the habit of taking her out every hour whether she says she needs to go or not day or evening. Seems like if she needs to go if there s a very long walk to the door she doesn't make it. I'm dosing conservatively too and will inch up during maintenance if needed. Sounds like you are doing great :)

[Boriss McCall]

I need to get better about taking him out more often. He is a little mystery pee-er. If he is in a room by himself in the house I always no he is up to no good. :D He likes to try & sneak off to eat toilet paper & pee in the hallway. He is a little stinker.. Always has been... Which is why I love him. :D

[FrecklesMom]

That is so funny, same with freckles. If I see her rushing out of a room she doesn't belong i know to investigate. Last christmas she came running out of my daughters bedroom. I went in and discovered she had eaten and spit out artificial red berries that were on a decoration near the floor. Poor starving doggie looking for anything and everything to eat so nothing was safe. LOL It never made sense until now.

[goldengirl88]

Amy and Boriss and everone else with the pee problem. When my Yorkie was a baby and hard to train- I got him belly bands on Ebay, and put a kotex pad in them. It works very well. For the girls they have really nice panties with the tail cut out- they are waterproof, and you can put a pad in them too. This might help, so give it a try. Just don't forget to take them off when they go outside, as I have done when busy!!

[molly muffin]

I always get the kennel cough shot since Molly got it once at a pet sitters (I thought she was updated but guess she wasn't) and almost died from it. So I don't take chances with that one at all. :(

hugs,
Sharlene

[Squirt's Mom]

LOL Brick weighs 4.8 lbs and has a tiny waist. The visual of him wearing a belly band with a kotex in it is hilarious! :p:p:p He could just wear the kotex wrapped around him with some of that camouflage duct tape, tho! :D

[Boriss McCall]

Boriss can be a very bad boy.. He likes to rip up & eat paper. I could just see him eating a pad & enjoying every bite. lol But, if he doesn't get better with the peeing it is worth a shot for sure. :)

ha.. I got the image of little Brick strutting around with a kotex pad bigger than his body.

Sharlene that is what I was thinking. Kennel cough is not good.. I will for sure get that shot. Every time I leave him at the vet for his acth test I get nervous knowing that shot has expired.

[lulusmom]

Hi Amy,

For what it's worth, I am also on board with an increase to 30mg.

When was the last time Boriss received vaccines? The only vaccine required by law in Texas is rabies; however, they will accept a waiver letter from your vet if s/he feels that Boriss does not qualify as a healthy dog and should therefore, not receive immunizations. My dogs' specialist provides a waiver for my cushdog and my two CHF dogs.

Texas does not require annual rabies vaccines so make sure your vet uses three year vaccine and puts the expiration date on the certificate. By the way, there is no difference between a one year and three year vaccine, except for the undue risk your dog would be subjected to if a vet were to use a one year vaccine in a jurisdiction that doesn't require annual rabies. So even if your vet thinks Boriss is healthy enough and/or the risk of rabies in your area outweighs the risk of vaccine side effects, he should absolutely not get the rabies vaccine any more than every three years. Please check out the summary of the 2011 vaccine guidelines Dr. Karen Becker has on her site. It's much easier to follow than the actual guidelines which are difficult to read sideways. I have, however, included the url for that document as well.

healthypets.mercola.com/.../new-canine-vaccination-guidelines.aspx

www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf

Since you were talking about the Bordatella vaccine, I have included a URL to good information on the subject. I don't know who this person is but his/her citations are correct. As a rescuer, I am very familiar with kennel cough as 90% of the dogs I've pulled from shelters are already coughing or eventually start hacking. Even those dogs who received the bordatella vaccine upon impound contract kennel cough. Immunity is not immediate nor is it a guarantee that a dog won't get kennel cough.

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2012/03/21/bordetella-does-your-dog-really-need-the-kennel-cough-vaccine/

I also heartily recommend that you watch Dr. Karen Becker's four part video of discussions with Dr. Ronald Schultz, one of, if not the world's expert on immunology. It was Dr. Schultz who was the driving force behind the revised vaccine guidelines. He and Dr. Jean Dodds are in their fifth year of a seven year USDA sanctioned study to prove that rabies vaccines are good for at least seven years and hopefully lifetime. Dr. Schultz already knows that immunity lasts 7 years but the government won't look at any supporting evidence that isn't part of a study that has been approved and conducted in strict compliance with USDA guidelines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC--bGthNN8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Zvg8tIxeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc-6exZcbJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdPhj8Vq9ck

A good number of sweet dogs, especially males, end up in shelters because their only fault was peeing in the house because their owners were too lazy to train them. I tried belly bands years ago but unless you check on them frequently and change the wet pads, the urine is directly against their skin and it will get inflamed. Baby diapers are much better as they are ultra absorbent and form a pocket and keep the urine away from their skin. I don't bother with cutting a hole out for their tail and simply put the diaper around their torso, making sure the pocket is directly under the penis.

[Boriss McCall]

I have some studying to do! :)
Thank you for taking the time to share this information. I REALLY appreciate it.

The last time both of my dogs had their vaccines were 10/2/12. The shot form says the vaccines expire 10/11/12. The bad part is I had them done at one of those petmobile hospitals to save some money. Since they stuck a one year expiration date on there I bet the city of Dallas will send me a letter wanting the updated vaccine record.
ugg..

I will talk to my vet & see if I can at least not have to do it for Boriss.

Since my dogs don't go to the dog park that often or stay in a kennel often I really shouldn't bother with the other vaccines? Only do what the state makes me do & get the rabies every 3 years.

last year October the had DHPP, CORONA, RABIES & BORDETELLA.

Seems like I am getting a letter from the city every year. But, I guess it is because these vets are putting a 1 year expiration date on the form?

[Boriss McCall]

yikes! so i just went to pick up Boriss's new prescription from the vet.
Last month 20mg trilo was somewhere around $45.
this months Vetroyl 30mg $90.
Is there anywhere to get the Vetroly cheaper? Otherwise i might have to switch back to Trilo.

[Nikki]

Wow!!! Definitely shop around! We pay about $45 at our vet for the 30mg. A vet the next town over wanted around $80, which was part of the reason why we didn't go there. Someone had mentioned buying it online before, but I don't have any websites or any useful information. Just that you should definitely look around!!

[molly muffin]

Crimes. Here in Canada it is 135. For box of 30mg vet royal at my vet. Even with exchange rate I'm being fleeced :(

[Boriss McCall]

ugg.. $135!! ouch.. Now that hurts.. These people are getting away with murder.:mad:

I will have to check Nikki. I knew you could get the Trilo cheaper online. But, I wasn't sure about the Vetoryl.

[goldengirl88]

Everyone:
You guys are too funny with the Kotex, it really made me laugh, but did help me tremendously with my Yorkie. I get my Vetory from Lambert Vet Supply, it is a Vipps top rated pharmacy. It is the cheapest, most reliable source as it comes straight from the manufacturer, so you know what you are getting. I ordered mine on Thursday and got it on a Saturday. The delivery is rather quick, but don't judge it by this- I would allow a week to be safe. This pharmacy is one of only a handful approved by the Board of Pharmacists. I don't want to mess around getting "junk pills" from some site on the internet. It is not worth the health of your dog. They fax my vet a form, and he fills it out, and that is all there is to it. I get the 10 mg Vetoryl and I think it is 38.95 a box of 30. So, with all the testing, meds etc. the cost of treating a dog is very expensive, so you have to save where you can. They also sell heartwormers and many other drugs you may use. Good luck to you all. I want a picture of the tiny baby with the Kotex on!!!

[goldengirl88]

OOPs Everyone I forgot to ask this. Am I understanding some of the ear drops cause harm to the dogs? If so which are safe, as I am getting Tipper's ears checked Wednesday when she goes for her ACTH. Thank you all in advance.

[Squirt's Mom]

Our vet told me that the "micin" or "mycin" family can cause deafness whether taken orally or used topically as in ear drops, eye drops, ointments. If the med has the letters "micin" or "mycin" then it has the potential to cause deafness. An example is Gentamicin. It doesn't always happen but it does happen.

[goldengirl88]

Anne:
Thanks for the help- if the vet is going to treat her with something I will remember what you said. God only knows we don't need any more problems?

[JoannH]

I got my 30 mg of Vetoryl from Drs. Foster and Smith for $55 with free shipping over $49.

Drs. Foster and Smith is an accredited Vet's VIPPS and NABP pharmacy. I've purchased many products from them over the years and have always had very positive experiences.

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks for the advice on where to get cheaper Vetoryl. I will have to talk with my vet to see how I can arrange this.

Okay.. little update on Boriss.
Yesterday morning at 8am I started him on 30mg of Vetoryl. (moving up from 20mg of Trilostane)

When I went home 4 hours later to check on him he seemed drugged & a little bit twitchy in his back legs. He couldn't seem to get comfortable when trying to lay down for the hour I was there on my lunch break.

When I got back home yesterday evening he still seemed a tiny bit twitchy but, was able to lay down & keep his legs still & get comfortable. He seemed more with it.

Last night he didn't want to jump on the bed to go to sleep. I am hoping these are not signs to alarm me.

But, he drank & ate normal & didn't have any accidents.

I guess what worries me is if these drugs build up will it be too much for him or does he build a tolerance to the small side affects?

And of course we are going out of town Saturday night back on Sunday. I hate leaving him with someone else. This disease is going to force me to trust others to care for him I guess.:o But, we all know nobody does it as good as mama!!

[Boriss McCall]

When he was on the 20mg he wasn't doing anything weird or he didn't have drugged looking eyes. I hate stressing out!!! :eek::eek::o:o

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
Please read my thread as Tipper has been twitching etc. also. I hope you can get the Vetoryl cheaper now as it does help - every little bit you can save helps. I hope your baby is doing well soon, this is soooo hard to deal with all of this.

[Boriss McCall]

I read that about little Tipper. He was twitching his back leg yesterday while he was laying in the sun awake. Like it was described as shooing a fly. I haven't seen any shakes or tremors. I am hoping when I check on him today it will be better.
I guess it takes time to figure it all out & get the exact right dose.:eek:

[addy]

Keep in mind that you also went from 20mgs to 30mgs and to name brand from compounded. It may be possible that Boriss will absorb the Vetoryl differently than the compounded.

I am not saying that to alarm you, so dont get freaked out. It may be minor side effects for a bit that you did not see before.

[Boriss McCall]

thanks Addy i am watching him close & taking notes. I just really don't like it when he is bug eyed & drugged looking. So, if that doesn't go away I might have to switch back to Trilostane.

[molly muffin]

If you don't feel comfortable with the higher dose, then maybe don't give it to him while you are away?
it could be that 20 isn't enough, 30 is too much (not saying it is), and 25 might be about right. It's hard to know, so you have to go with your gut instinct and what you and only you, know about Boriss.
Hopefully some others with some other ideas will have some more ideas.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Morning Sharlene & Ms. Molly,

Boriss did better yesterday. The weird leg twitch thing was not happening. I am hoping he will slowly get used to it & loose his doped crazy eyes. When Boston's have crazy eyes they look even more buggy!!:eek:

But, overall I wasn't too worried about what I saw yesterday. If he doesn't loose the crazy eyes I might see if she will bump him down to 25mg next go around. I am just crossing my fingers this will be the right dose & he can go on with his merry little life. :)

I am trying to figure out a way to take the dogs with me on this trip.

[FrecklesMom]

Hi BorrisMom, can relate how difficult this dosage thing is, hope things fall together for Borris. When I picked up freckles medicines I decided to go with tablets so I could cut it apart to make giving it to her easier but has also made it possible for me adjust to maintenance dose gradually since I can cut in 1/4s. Don't know if you have pill form but if you do see if you can split it and give her a smaller increased dose. Freckles dose ended up being 1/2 of her loading dose which is unusual. I just think some dogs assimilate these medicines more than others. Hope you have a great vacation! Borris will be in good hands at the vets office.

Hugs, freckles and diane

[Boriss McCall]

Morning Diane!
I am so happy that your baby is doing so well. She sounds like a little trooper.

Boriss is actually on the other meds Vetoryl so I can't break up his pills. But, he is like Freckles.. Sensitive to anything I give him.

He will be having his 3rd ACTH test next week to see how he is doing on his new dose. I am crossing my fingers we found the right one for him & his body just needs to adjust to it.

[molly muffin]

I hope that Boriss has some good tests results in this next test. It would be great if Boriss could find a dose to settle into for awhile at least.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Thanks! I am ready for some smooth sailing that is for sure. ;)

He is doing better this week now that his body is getting used to the increase.
Last night he was a little off.. He was really hungry even after I fed him & had 1 accident. I was starting to wonder if he spit out his pill. But, I am 99% sure he didn't.
I am just taking it that he was a little off last night cause he has been so good all week. No accidents not starving... :)

HIs next test is on Thursday! I will be so glad when I don't have to do this every 2 weeks. So, will my bank account. :p

[apollo6]

I will be praying all goes well for your sweet Boris. hope,faith, and love is what we need to keep going on.
Hugs Sonja and Angel Apollo.

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
Good luck to Boriss on his testing coming up. Probably just the chancge in dosage has thrown him off. It seems any little deviation form the norm can really throw them of course. Hopefully all is back to normal soon. I know this testing etc. is really expensive, and it seems the Vets have no mercy on us. What can you do???

[Boriss McCall]

Thank you Sonja! you are so right. ;)

Thank you Tippers mama!

We have decided to put both our dogs in the car & take them out of town with us for the weekend. :D
We are only driving a few hours. But, sometimes both of them in the car is how I imagine kids picking on each other in the back seat. This will be an adventure! :eek:

Everyone have a great weekend!!

[goldengirl88]

Amy and Boriss:
That sounds like a fun road trip!!! Enjoy every minute with the babies!!

[Boriss McCall]

I will find out tomorrow at Boriss's test.. but, I think we might have found the right milligrams for him. :)

He is doing great & has not had an accident in days! woot woot..:D

Seems like he is still loosing hair though. Hopefully I will see a change there soon. If not he has a brand new really cute sweater for the cold days.

Hope everyone is having a great week. I will update after his test results come in. Fingers Crossed!!

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

sounds promising! I think the hair is one of the last things to come back

[goldengirl88]

Amy:
Hope Boriss passes with flying colors,and that you have reached the correct dose for your baby. GO BORISS, GO BORISS!!!!!!

[3bostons]

Good Luck little Boriss ! It will be a big relief to finally get the dosage right.
hugs kona and deb

[molly muffin]

Good luck tomorrow!

We'll want pictures in the coat you know!

hugs,
Sharlene

[Boriss McCall]

I will for sure! it is really cute if I do say so myself.:p

I dropped Boriss off at the vet after dealing with not 1 BUT 2 flat tires on my husbands car this morning. It never ends sometimes.:eek::eek::eek:

Now here is to hoping Boriss's results come back good. I could use a tiny break somewhere in my madness. ;)

[Tina]

Hi Amy,

Just getting caught up on some threads finally, and wondering how Boriss is doing, and how the test results were. Hope you both are having a good weekend!

Hugs,

Tina and Jasper

[Boriss McCall]

Good Morning Everyone!

Thanks for asking about Boriss... Tina :)

Unfortunately his test results did not come back good. :( I will post them next.

We are going to bump him up again in 12 days after he finishes off the 30mgs & retest him. I think he will go up to 40mg. bummer...

Question.. This doesn't really make sense to me. But, has anyone ever seen better results with Trilostane instead of Vetoryl?
We had him on the 20mg Trilo for the first month & he was doing "okay". This last month we switched to 30mg of Vet & his numbers shot back up.

His accidents have decreased. His urine concentration & thirst are both a little better. But, his hunger has returned.

[Boriss McCall]

9/20/12-20mg Trilostane
Pre ACTH 6.2 normal range Pre 2-6
Post ACTH 5.2 normal range post 6-18

10/2/12- 20mg Trilostane
Pre-ACTH 5.8 UG/DL
Post-ACTH 6.4 ug/dL

10/18/12- 30mg Vetoryl
Pre-ACTH 8.4 UG/dL
Post-ACTH 14.6 UG/dL

He will continue taking the 30mg Vetoryl for 12 more days.. retest & then more than likely bump up to 40mg (probably switch back to Trilo so he will only have 1 pill to take).