Vet will not state cushings - Ben has passed

[Genie]

Hi there

I have a 8 year old jack russel called ben. 6 years ago he had a cluster of epileptic fits, climbing the wall, frothing etc. We were lucky to have him as he had around 6-9 fits in a row. The vet prescribed him phenobarbitan tablets and he has been on them ever since.

It was only late last year when he started to drastically drink more, urinate for longer and appeared to have a pot belly appearance, groaning as he laid down etc.

After some Internet research we figured that the phenobarbitan tablets can cause liver damage/failure and the vet advised we need to ween him off this and introduced him to bromide. So now he is on both tablets (bromide takes a while to get into the system apparently)

Lots of blood tests were run and found he had a high liver count which could indicate damage. It was only last month when he was breathing heavily and struggling to breath due to his heavy weight that we rushed him to a vets. Xrays were carried out and we were advised he was in an unstable state and after lots of oxygen they let him home. Apparently the vet seemed to think that with his increased hunger and constant guarding of food, he ate too quickly causing the pressure on his diaphragm . So we changed to feeding him little and often 5 times a day.

But over the last month, we have noticed other symptoms . His head is dented, his fur hasn't grown back from all the tests, extremely cracked dry nose, lies down all the time on cold surfaces, struggles to get up (all legs give out) falls over alot, can't get up steps. skin is sagging, still drinks a lot and is always hungry, wanting food.

He has his good days where he barks at the door and wags his tail, enjoys walks etc. But he pants a lot and can't walk far, his legs almost bowed.

We had an ultrasound done and the vet informed us he had an enlarged liver. We asked about Cushing as after reading all the symptoms online, it sounds like that but the vet doesn't seem bothered. They said if it is cushings, to just leave him to it.

I don't want him to suffer and I'm a bit confused about the whole epileptic and cushings thing.

If anyone can give any advice, I'd much appreciate it. Our vet is not giving us much insight on what is going on with our poor little boy. :(

Thank you
Gina

He still has his days where he runs about

[Genie]

We have just spoken to the vet and they have informed us that the most Important thing is the sort his liver out before it goes into secondary disease.

They have reduced his phenobarbitan from 2 a day to 3/4 in morning and 3/4 at night along with the bromide as the bromide is now in his system. The main thing is to get him off phenobarbitan. And to give him liver supplements

Can cushings be linked to liver disease? :confused:

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Gina and welcome to you and Ben,

I have manually approved your post so that others with knowledge and experience may be able to share with you.

Please check your e-mail and spam folder if necessary and respond to the e-mail form K9 cushings, this will complete you membership and your post will no longer have to be approved.


Thank you,

[labblab]

Dear Genie,

Welcome to you and Ben, although I am very sorry that he is doing poorly right now. I have had a dog with Cushing's in the past, and I now have a non-Cushpup who is on phenobarb for treatment of seizures. From my experiences with both dogs, I can tell you that a dog being treated with phenobarb can exhibit some of the same symptoms as Cushing's, especially excessive thirst, urination, hunger and lethargy. And both phenobarb and Cushing's can also cause changes in the liver. For these reasons, I don't disagree with your vet's recommendation to first switch Ben to the potassium bromide and also further explore his liver abnormalities before launching into testing for Cushing's. Having said that, it is indeed possible that Ben may be suffering from both problems -- liver toxicity due to the longterm use of phenobarb, and ALSO Cushing's. One thing doesn't cause the other, but the cumulative effect could be very damaging to the liver. It's just that the testing for Cushing's can be skewed by other illnesses or problems. So it would likely be best to see whether Ben's behavior and liver values improve once he is totally weaned off the phenobarb. If caught early enough, liver damage from phenobarb can be reversible.

However, if future testing indicates that Ben does suffer from Cushing's (and it does indeed sound as though he has additional symptoms that point in that direction), then I disagree with your vet's advice that you leave the Cushing's unaddressed and untreated. As you will see as you read further here on the forum, we have witnessed many success stories, and improved quality of life, for dogs being treated for the disease.

So if it were me, I'd proceed with the phenobarb weaning for the time being and also move forward with supportive measures for Ben's liver. Once you see how he does "off" the phenobarb, then I'd revisit the question of Cushing's testing if it seems warranted.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Welcome Genie. I think you'll find some good advice here from people who have been through some rocky roads themselves.

I too would address the liver issue first and get him completely off the phenobarb as soon as possible.
It could be that you will want to see an Internal Medicine Specialist at some point also.

Welcome to the board.

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

I just wanted to stop back to add that if it turns out that Ben DOES have Cushing's, the switch to potassium bromide will really work in his favor. Due to phenobarb's effect on the liver and also its potential to interact with the drugs used to treat Cushing's, phenobarb is not the best medication choice for a Cushpup. Potassium bromide is a better choice in this regard. So the good news is that if Ben does have Cushing's, you'll already be ahead of the game in terms of his seizure medication.

Please do keep us updated as to how Ben is doing, OK?

Marianne

[Genie]

Thank you so much for the detailed reply.

It has put my mind at rest a little. It just seems that the vet has done so many blood tests, ultrasounds, xrays etc and when you are getting nowhere - it leaves you frustrated.

The vet advised to have a blood test every 2 weeks so check his levels and they will try wean him off the pheno quickly.

Is there anything we can do to help him? His legs give out so easily and its torturing to watching him try to get up steps/out of his bed and nearly injuring himself further through falling.

The vet suggested liver supliments - do you know any which work well? We are feeding his chappie for the moment (lowest fat dog food) A while back he was on white fish, swede and veg blended as we read this was good for the liver (liver cleaning diet) but we didnt see much difference.

Since changing his habbits to feeding little and often, and cutting out treats completley, he has lost weight but still has the pot belly appearence with the sagging skin (muscle wastage?)

As said before, thank you so much for all your replies. It really helps knowing that someone has experienced the same and all your suggestions and guidance.

Gina

[GabbySue]

Hi Gina

The liver supplement is called Denamarin, it may take a little time to order it so in the mean time you can get Sam-E and Milk Thistle in your supermarket. It should be given on an empty stomach, so I give it to Gabby when I get home from work with just a little bite of canned bison. She's been on it since february when that was the thing that we found on her labs for a predental cleaning was her liver function was off. It has since returned to normal.
(My vet sells a product that is equivalent to Denamarin so we get a bottle of 100 for around $50).

Dealing with a ravenous JRT is challenging,looking back on it is funny now and we can laugh about it, but at the time not so much, we couldn't even leave anything of food value on the counter as she would find a way to jump up and eat whatever was there.

You are in a good place for answers, from one JRT to another -HELLO!!!

Tiffany

[leighangela]

Jumping in here for a quick question - I know SAM-e needs to be given on an empty stomach, but does Milk Thistle as well?

[Genie]

Hi all

Just an update on Ben, my 8 year old jack Russell.

Please see below post for more info.

Over the past couple of days, Ben is loosing all his Balance on his front and rear legs. Struggles to get up for sitting or lying down. Doesn't move about much. Doesn't respond or wag his tail, just stares into space with his eyes bloodshot and glazed.

Not sleeping much, being sick and bring up his epileptic Meds, direahea constantly. lost weight.

We don't know what to do for best. Hate seeing him like this But it's always so difficult on what decision to make. If he's in pain, I don't want him to suffer but If we make that decision , there is always that thought that we could have done more. What do you do :(

Help :(

[labblab]

Gina, I saw that you had started a new thread about Ben including a second reply that duplicates your first post here. I've gone ahead and merged your two threads together so that everyone will know Ben's complete history (and also deleted your duplicate post).

I'm so terribly sorry that Ben is doing so poorly. First off, though, has he been tested this week re: the relative levels of his phenobarb and potassium bromide? My first thought is that perhaps he is being overdosed on the drug combination.

Marianne

[Genie]

Hi there

He's now on 1 bromide and 3/4 phenobarbitan in the morning and the same at night. So if anything, I don't think he can overdose as its been cut down from 1 pheno to 3/4 .

We are trying to get him to drink but he keeps being sick, bringing up sheets of water everywhere. We phoned the emergancy vet and they said see how he goes by 4pm but its £150 just to see him today. As much as we want him to get better, the costs are just adding up. Don't know whether to wait till tomorrow and see how he goes over the next 24 hours

Gina

[Genie]

Unfortunatley we lost Ben today :( We all decided that it would be best to send him to doggy heaven and put him out of pain. The look he gave me this morning told me he didnt want to carry on.

He had an upset stomach which was tar black, continued to be sick, wasnt drinking and couldnt stand.

I just wanted to thank you for all your help on here. It is very upsetting and I know Ill be crying for a long time but im glad he is now out of pain.

Gina
x

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I'm so sorry for your loss. It definitely sounds like something was going on. I'm glad he isn't hurting anymore. Judi

[labblab]

Oh Gina, I am so sorry, too. But it sounds as though something had gone terribly wrong for Ben, and that releasing him was the kindest and most loving thing you could do. As hard as it was for you to write those words, thank you so much for telling us what has happened. This way, we can join you in honoring your sweet boy and the brave battle he fought. Ben has now been added to our special memorial thread:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3918

And I will check back with you at another time to see whether there may be a special photo that you would like for us to link to his name.

He will always be remembered here, and we will always welcome you back at any time should you care to share any memories or stories about your life with Ben. Or should you just want to talk about your loss. We know how deeply it hurts.

Sending you many hugs, always in loving memory of your sweet boy.
Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Gina,

I am so sorry to hear about Ben. It sounds like he knew nothing more could be done to help him and he let you know it was alright for him to go. That doesn't ease your pain right now, but in time I hope you see what an amazing gift you gave Ben when you released him.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket, Brick, Tasha and our Angels, Ruby and Crystal


May I Go

Do you think the time is right?
May I say goodbye to pain filled days and endless lonely nights?
I've lived my life and done my best, an example tried to be.
So can I take that step beyond, and set my spirit free?
I didn't want to go at first, I fought with all my might.
But something seems to draw me now to a warm and living light.
I want to go, I really do; it's difficult to stay.
But I will try as best I can to live just one more day.
To give you time to care for me and share your love and fears.
I know you're sad and afraid, because I see your tears.
I'll not be far, I promise that, and hope you'll always know,
That my spirit will be close to you wherever you may go.
Thank you so for loving me. You know I love you too,
And that's why it's hard to say goodbye and end this life with you.
So hold me now just one more time and let me hear you say,
Because you care so much for me, you'll let me go today.

by Susan A. Jackson

[Bo's Mom]

My deepest sympathy to you and your family. Angel Ben will live forever in your hearts as he makes his paw prints all over Heaven.

[jmac]

I'm so sorry for your loss. It definitely sounds like you made the right decision for Ben. My thoughts are with you.

Julie & Hannah

[GabbySue]

Gina

I am so sorry to hear that Ben has passed. When there is so much going on with them and nothing seems to be working it feels that at times we think maybe we didn't do enough when the reality is we have done all we can. I've learned over the years that we do what we can but sometimes there are things that just can't be fixed.

Godspeed Ben!

Tiffany

[molly muffin]

I am very sorry for your loss. I agree, you just know, somehow they tell you, that now is the time and I think Ben probably did that for you hon. I am still awfully sorry though. :(

hugs,
Sharlene

[mytil]

Oh Gina,

I am so very sorry - my deepest sympathies.

Sending you healing ((hugs))
Terry

[Genie]

Thank you all for your kind messages.

The house is so quiet without him :( I thought it wouldnt be that bad as we still have his sister Tia. But he was always the loud character, the one who always set them both off barking. Now Tia doesnt even bark at the door. She must be grieving quite badly too poor thing. Every time his name is mentioned, she looks up. Its heart breaking. :'(

We are giving her lots of attentions and love and I know that she knows, with all the crying going on in the household. Even my dad said he keeps looking for ben. He was always there.

Ben was always the kind of dog who would snuggle right into you (as close as he could possibly get) and loved cuddles. Im finding it difficult to adjust because as much as we love Tia, she doesnt have the same personality as Ben. She doesnt really like to be cuddled and this is what im missing the most. I miss holding ben and rocking him like a baby which he used to love. :(

I hope this grieving process doesnt last too long. I cant think, eat or sleep.

x

[RockysDad]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

I am also presently grieving my son Rocky, who departed this Earth today.

My heartfelt condolences and sympathies, as well as my prayers, are with you.

My house, once had the constant pitter patter of little feet, in 2007 I lost my son Bullwinkle. Rocky was his brother and lasted till today, and like your house, mine is now very quiet.

Peace be with you.