Molly, 13 yr, shih tzu - lhasa aspo - Molly has passed

[molly muffin]

The drawer is shut. :)

Someone take the key from me!

Sharlene

[Woodydog]

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab325/woodydog10[/U]/IMG_0390_zpsd1ca6eef.mp4]http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab325/woodydog10/th_IMG_0390_zpsd1ca6eef.jpg ([U)

cheeky terrier my fav video

[Woodydog]

I,ll hold the key for you. Pub sounds good x

[molly muffin]

tracy I forgot to tell you I found a bellini mixer. Bought 3 bottles. LOL

Sharlene

[Trish]

OMG Sharlene, we have another vet to love on, she sounds fantastic!! So glad she takes the time to talk it through with you. How right you both are about how we are so close to the situation it is hard to look outside the box with our little fluff balls, that made me smile you all the way in Canada having a chat and including Flynny awwwwwwww xxxx She sounds a very wise vet waiting to get all those results and then deciding what to do.

Blardly proteinuria, no offense but we don't want Molly in the protein pup band, she can just get rid of that quick smart :D... or maybe she can just stand out the side and we will give her a tambourine but no full membership just yet young lady!!!! UPCR a good place to start with the investigations, she sounds like she is leaving no stone unturned, which we all love.

Have fun at the pub!! sounds a good way to start a long weekend!!!

[Trish]

Addy, I think that pic was on cheezburger. I love that app and it is the last thing I look at on my ipad in bed each night so I can go to sleep with a smile on my face!

Tracy, that video kicked me clean off the forum and did not load. but I can sort of see some weird pic of a paw and a toy in the thread??

Yep, drawer locked, key on its way to Scotland... :D:D

[addy]

But Trish- if Molly has kidney stones, could it not be coming from that? They can throw protein from anywhere- Zoe threw it from her skin and her IBD.

Sharlene, there is a whole round table discussion on IDEX I think. I have to go back and look.

Wait- I thought we locked the drawer, dang it.:o:o

[Woodydog]

Oops sorry must not have loaded it correctly it's the one from his thread

[Trish]

Depends what sort of stones, infection ones can... ca oxalate or uric acid not so much.

OK, jemmy open the drawer just for the IDEXX article, but then slam it back shut again :p

[Woodydog]

Yes drawer is locked and I have the key well for tonight anyway :D

[addy]

ok lets keep it locked then. I only saw a weird paw too, I'll go back for another peak.

[molly muffin]

hehehe, we did, but the drawer has bad sliders and keeps coming open. I remember there was a round table, you mentioned it before with Zoe. I'll have to find the link to it before we chat next.
You're right it could be from the kidney stones. Man I want that report so I know how big everything is.
Nope, not going to go there this weekend. I am going to go to the pub, make a pitcher of bellinis tomorrow, then hand with friends and play with molly. LOL and of course check in here all the time.
I know Trish, she really is great IMS. She is getting thumbs up from me. I like that she has seen many cush pups too and she said, she always gets the hard cases, the ones who don't react as they should on medicine, or something else. (I rather like that she gets the hard ones, makes me thinks she's been down the road more than a few times and should have some good ideas, I hope).

okay, enough for today on this. These videos are great!

Oh, some friends are meeting us at the pub now. I love long weekends!!! Wish you were all here, I'd round you all up for an evening out.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Woodydog]

I,ll see if I can fix it

[Trish]

I bet her report is really detailed too Sharlene, she seems the type and just the info you have given us is great. I think they really like owners like us that go the extra mile and try and keep up with them and want to hear the reasoning behind things. Mike told me once that I keep him in his toes, good for them too!! I know a lot of people just blindly agree to it all and do not investigate for themselves. I wonder how many type A personalities we have on this board?!:eek: Quite a few I would think!!

[Woodydog]

Have fun at the pub Sharlene I'm off to bed it's 1am here. Thanks for letting us hijack your thread.

Night night Trish and Addy love to chat

[Trish]

hmmm your 11 hrs behind now, that's weird, thought it was 12. Have a good sleep and rest your weary sledgehammering bones!! :D Nighty nite.. the video still has 21 mins till its downloaded, its a long one! You can see it tomorrow! x

[Harley PoMMom]

Those bellini cocktails sound divine!! Might have to try some of them sometime soon!!

Here's the link to that roundtable discussion on proteinuria:
Proteinuria and Renal Disease: A Roundtable Discussion (http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresources/pdf/en_us/smallanimal/education/proteinuria-round-table.pdf)

[addy]

aha, Lori to the rescue, she keeps good records, an organized woman:):)

Trish - those deer that I used to love seeing in my yard when we first moved in to Little House in the Big Woods, carry deer ticks that give dogs and people Lyme disease here in the states, especially in the northern and northeastern states so while they are pretty to look at and admire, I dont want them in my yard.:eek::eek::(:(

Looks like Sharlene is off to the pub. I hope she gets to relax and forget about it all for the night.

Hey Trish, I'll probably say goodnight too. I have to go do all my arm exercises. I have slacked off since I have had this virus.:rolleyes:

[Trish]

Yes, I hope she has a nice relaxing night too! Little House in the Big Woods.. sounds so romantic!! But yes, I can see why you don't want them close by! Venison = novel protein... I guess you cannot go out and shoot them though!

Glad you are doing your arm exercises Addy, so lovely to chat with you guys today, started my day off with a smile! Have a good sleep, and long weekend!! xxxx

[beaglemom3]

Hi Sharlene, Been catching up on posts and sorry to hear about Molly's adrenal gland tumors. I said and feel the same way as you do about Snugs, can't think about surgery when they are acting so happy and healthy and the possibility of them not making it through. I am 100% with you on that.

Your vet sounds wonderful and knowledge and so caring I am so glad for you and Molly you have her.

I hope they get a definite diagnosis soon and if you want the information on the urine test we had done for Snuggles to determine if it is a pheo or not let me know and I will be happy to give you the information.

I will keep you and Molly in my prayers for the best outcome from all of this.

You are a fantastic mom Sharlene! Hugs and kisses to sweet Molly!

[molly muffin]

nighty night everyone. Thanks for the chat, it helps to just have a good time sometimes and look at dog videos and have a bellini. Lori! you too must try!. I will convert the world to bellini's yet!! hahaha

Thanks for the link. My homework for tomorrow. :)

Everyone sleep well!
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Hi Vicki, we've been trying to figure molly out since 2011 (well the cortisol issue anyhow) and one thing I do know is that there is little point in rushing into anything when you aren't sure.
It is hard to wait and to worry when you wait, but if I can just get past that dang adrenal nodule, then I can handle all the rest of it. hmm, well the protein might be a bit tricky but we'll see what the deal is on that too.
If it comes down to a possible pheo then I might try the test, wish there was a larger study group done on that test, but it is on my list of possible actionable items.

I hope Snuggles tumor has shrunk, that would be excellent.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I say put in in Addy's drawer for a while and close it up. The worrying and researching, and thinking, and planning from all this stuff is enough to make anyone go bonkers once and a while. Blessings
Patti

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
The link is up on Tippers thread to see the tremors. This is a mild one, notice the tail and face twitching. It is not long, please watch to the end. Also please read my thread on myoclonic seizures. I am wanting tour opinion. Blessings
Patti

[Trish]

Hi Sharlene

I hope you had a great night at the pub and a good nights sleep and you feel better today!! Bet your head is still whirring away with a million thoughts, any sign of the report?
xxx

[Woodydog]

Hope you enjoyed the pub and it took your mind of things well for a little while. Enjoy the rest of your weekend :)

[Trixie]

Wow Sharlene,
I haven't been here for a few days so just catching up! So sorry I missed what's been going on with Molly. You are always right there on my thread posting when I'm shaking with worry, so I'm sorry to have missed your posts about the meeting with the new IMS and not chimed in with some support for you. I'm here now though and sorry you've had some worries after this big appointment. Glad to read the good news too and there was a lot of it!
Molly really had a thorough going over didn't she?
She sounded like a great vet and gave you a lot of time. So I want to reread everything to see where you are now about what will happen going forward.
It's so hard to imagine Molly getting a positive diagnosis after everything and like you said zero of the outward symptoms. Treating like it's atypical cannot hurt her at all right...the melatonin and lignans are pretty much safe supplements aren't they? A good place to start maybe without any risks?
You know I always like to hear Molly doing her thing at the vet...showing some teeth so they know she's not going to take any nonsense. I hope she's feeling fine tonight. Wish I had more knowledge so I could shed some light but of course I don't, but I know the forum is not short on real experts!
I'm sure this will all work out.. you probably have to make some decisions about treating but you'll have a whole lot of support and input here to get you through!

Barbara

[doxiesrock912]

Sharlene,

I'm sorry for the bad news but it is treatable as you know and I can only think that Molly not having outward symptoms is a good thing.

Your IMS sounds perfect and she'll figure this out.

[Budsters Mom]

Sharlene, it's the middle of the night and I'm up thinking about Molly. Do you think Dr. B. could help you figure out what's happening with her? He has helped so many of us. Just a thought...

Here's a link to his email just in case you want to give it a shot. Xxxxx

David.Bruyette@VCAHospitals.com

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I hope you have a good weekend and all of you have a blessed Easter.
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Did Molly get a new Easter dress and bonnet? :D

[molly muffin]

Hi gang.
I did have a great time at the pub with my friends and I basically took yesterday to just regroup, hang with Molly, read a book and nap a lot.

There isn't anything to do till all the test results are back so for now we relax and wait. I think I was in shock with all the different things the other day. Now I just need data.

Molly by the way does react to ACTH tests. No accidents but she drinks more water. Wants more treats especially. Still will leave food in her bowl though. But the main thing is she is non stop energy. Just go go go all the time. She literally seems to bounce all the time. She doesn't normally do that. She plays sometimes and she naps a lot of the time. So she can't have cortisol running through her body at this rate all the time or we would see the typical Cushing symptoms. I can believe though that now with both adrenal glands being bilaterally large that they hold a lot of cortisol in reserve. I bet she feels REAL good the last couple days.

Today we shop for Easter dinner. We decided on a salmon and a Ham.

Here is my hubby's thought..... Hey are there any pink vegetables. We could do all pink food. My response.... BLINK. Huh?

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[labblab]

LOL re: the pink Easter dinner!! ;) :p :p :p :p

Warning: Don't read any further if you want to keep the drawer closed through the weekend...!

[But I'm still thinking over my maintenance Lyso idea and kinda liking it if it turns out that hormone-lowering treatment is in order. I'm glad your IMS is paying attention to the proteinuria, because depending on persistence and the assumed cause, it may end up being the deal-breaker. Here's a quote from Dr. Peterson from somewhere (can't find the source):


I am not a proponent of treating dogs with asymtomatic Cushing's disease, unless they have secondary hypertension or proteinuria.

It still seems to me as though maintenance Lyso might have a lot of pluses and not so many negatives. Just sayin...! ;)]

[molly muffin]

That drawer is a pesky thing, keeps coming open. I want to find some time to go back over all Molly's urinalysis results and check what the protein has been doing. I remember the IMS on the phone Thursday saying historically it didn't look like molly had been consistent with higher protein, but I'd like to see where the numbers are at on that. It might help to some extent to figure things out. I think the IMS is like the rest of us, just trying to figure out the Molly mystery.

Molly doesn't have a new bonnet and all she wants to do is throw the Easter basket around, don't think she'd be very good at Easter egg hunting either. LOL That reminds me, last year or the year before, hubby decided I needed an Easter Egg hunt, but it was cold and raining outside, so he hid chocolate Easter eggs all over the house and a bunch of us had a hunt. It was a fun surprise to wake up to.

Thanks Marianne,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Sharlene:
You are getting like me, you can't keep that darn drawer shut! I am sure you will get this protein figured out. That is cute about the Easter egg hunt inside, you have a keeper hubby! When you are on the case it will get solved! Blessing
Patti

[molly muffin]

I just want to wish everyone a wonderful Easter weekend, may all of you and your furbabies and families be safe and happy.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

You as well, Sharlene, I stopped by to wish you and Molly and your family, the very same thing. Sometimes it is hard to keep that dang drawer shut, I know only too well. :o I think you are very wise to wait for all the reports to come in. It is not like you have to rush into a decision.

Hope dinner is more than pink:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Woodydog]

Happy Easter to you, hubs and off course the Diva Molly x

[Trish]

Ohhh a pink dinner, hmmmm I could think of loads if we could stretch that out to include reds and purples.. close enough?? :D

Whatever you cook will be divine, I always end up with my mouth watering after reading about your celebration meals!! So far, mine is my old standby pork belly and chocolate cake for dessert as per my sisters request. Oh and for the vegetarians, baked stuffed mushrooms. Just have to come up with a few other bits and pieces... I also have a steamed pudding in the freezer that is delish, but actually think cake might be enough with the chocolate eggs we will have on hand!

I will buy Flynn a nice piece of fresh fish. :D

Wishing you and hubs and Molly and all the family a lovely time!! x

[beaglemom3]

I know exactly what your going through Sharlene I spent hours awake searching and researching when Snug was diagnosed with a pheo, I was obsessed. There is so little info on it I kept thinking I am going to find something besides that frightening surgery, but I never did except some clinical trials with some meds that didn't pan out well.
To this day I search for something new, hoping and praying.

But as you know I got myself so run down from stress and not sleeping that I got hit hard with that virus. So please take care of yourself for your sake and Molly's.

I laughed out loud at the pink veggies LOL
Have a Happy Healthy and Safe Easter to you Molly your hubby and entire family!

[molly muffin]

Ha, I solved the veggie problem, but saying that others are bringing the veggies and is it really fair to require them to be pink? So potential son in law candidate is making his Portuguese potatoes, at hubbies request and the other veggies will be a surprise from someone else, I said, bring whatever you want. Then another couple is bringing dessert. (I have a chocolate cake back up if needed). :)

So I put hubby in charge of the meat and he is doing a full salmon with a ginger cream sauce that he made up one time and it is yummy and then sliced oranges on top of that for presentation. The ham will be cooked with a maple syrup/clove glaze, and then served with a maple syrup, blueberry reduction, he's making that up as he goes I think. He came home with like 4 containers of blueberries today, quite proud of himself. My hubby is a fabulous cook. That he can make a Baked Alaska and a Beef Wellington from scratch was a selling point when I met him. hahahahahaha

I'll be doing some baked bread and a spinach salad with strawberries and cranberries and walnuts, with a berry balsamic dressing. hmm, the stuffed mushrooms sound pretty tasty too. I should have read this before I went grocery shopping.

Molly is having a doggie Easter treat tomorrow. A bit of steak we brought home wrapped in bacon (this was an appetizer) from dinner out tonight.

We did manage to get the deck stained for the year today. I was surprised when the guys showed up to do it, but I am glad it's over with for this year. That means that I can start getting ready to open the pool and get the patio stuff set up now. Molly will have her playground in the back yard again.

Vicki, I have sworn myself to only peeks in the drawer now and then till I get all the reports back. I'm a data kind of girl and need to see the numbers, evaluate how she is doing physically, find out my options and then decide what to do. If ours is just a nodule that isn't growing on the adrenal gland, and not a potential pheo, I won't have to go down that road, but we'll see, and if the sex hormones come back raised, well I'll be discussing the option that Marianne brought up of a maintenance dose of lyso and see what the IMS thinks of that. I know already that she won't do a full load of lyso with Molly because of the lack of symptoms. I think the cortisol causing the adrenal glands to grown, might be what brought that nodule on, but we'll just have to wait and see. Of course the protein comes into play too, so that has to be evaluated. Too much with not enough factual information to make a decision yet. See that pesky drawer slid open again!! I will say that when a pheo was mentioned, my mind went right to Snuggles and Flynn and Annie and I had a ready wealth of information in my head as to possible symptoms and how each have reacted with a pheo. I am not seeing those symptoms either, so again, we'll see how it all goes.

Molly acts just fine, as she always has, and the affects of the ACTH seems to be gone now and her water intake is back to normal. Her energy level is still Very good. She has stopped bouncing off the walls though, so that is kind of good actually. She did sleep through the nights though with no problem, so that was good. She is like me likes sleep time. :)

okay, back to easter fun and games. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Molly acts just fine, as she always has

This is what matters above all else and be thankful! :p

Happy Easter Sharlene! xxxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

A hubby that can cook!! And can cook gourmet meals, WOW!!! Your dinner sounds so very yummy, hope you and yours have a wonderful Easter.

Hugs, Lori

[Tina]

Hi Sharlene,

**Edited to say that I just realized the drawer was shut, so don't read my post until you feel like opening it a crack. Sorry Sharlene, this is the first opportunity I have had to post!**


I have read and re-read all of the information from Molly's tests, and for the life of me, I don't understand how it can be determined that she has Cushings with no symptoms or definitive test results. You mentioned in one of your posts that Molly has high cortisol which was confirmed in 2012. Was it confirmed by baseline resting cortisol, or stim test? How elevated was it? And has it been checked since then? Just wondering since that was 2 years ago. I apologize if I missed this information in previous posts. :o

There is a lot of good news in those results, but I am concerned about the adrenal nodule also. I am hoping that when you get the detailed report we will have more information on that and other things too.

I think everyone has had great feedback so far, I wish I had something more I could offer. :o I am curious to see what the UTK panel will show.

As far as the 2+ protein in her urine, you mentioned that she had been up and down with protein before. I know with Jasper, he had been positive for protein a random time or two before it started showing up pretty consistently. And then I don't think the UPC showed a problem until he had 3+ protein. Hopefully Molly's UPC will be ok. Unfortunately I have some experience in this area so may be able to help out some here if need be.

I admire you so much for being able to take a step back, relax some, and wait for the report. I know how hard that is, and I fail miserably when I try it.

Happy Easter to you, Hubs, Molly and the rest of your family. Best of luck with the idea of an all pink Easter meal, your hubby cracks me up. :D

Big hugs,
Tina and Jasper xo

[molly muffin]

Hi Tina,
Her ACTH 2 years ago was pre 6.23 and post 36.75ug. At that time because the adrenal and liver were only marginally enlarged, and her lymph node was enlarged, then the LDDS came back negative, the thought was that maybe the cortisol was from something else, like the liver. We retested the LDDS and again it came back negative so we monitored the liver enzymes to see how those were doing. They went down for a bit and then lately just went back up. The reason for the latest IMS consult.
I want to see what the actual numbers on the enlargement are currently. The UT panel will show us what the cortisol is now. I expect it frankly to be high since the adrenals are now larger, but still bilaterally enlarged, even with the nodule being seen this time. It wasn't the there on the last ultrasound. So, I want full measurements on that.
okay you have got me motivated to pull out the paperwork to take a look at the protein in her urine.

Oh she just did a funny new thing!! She has her recliner with her doggie blanket on it, that hubs had his briefcase sitting on and she wanted up. So I was talking to her and telling to go lay on the couch by daddy (a word she knows) and she stood up on her back two legs straight and tall and looked over the arm of the chair to see me talking to her. She's never done that before and both me and hubs were just laughing and talking to her and she just kept standing up looking at us. It was too adorable.

okay, I'll be back when I have the protein info. Dang that drawer.
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[doxiesrock912]

Sharlene,
Dinner sounds fabulous! Happy Easter!

[Tina]

Molly has such cute ways Sharlene, I bet that was so cute the way she was looking over the arm of the chair.

Oh Sharlene, don't look into the protein info tonight!! That dang drawer, it is possessed and keeps flying open!! :rolleyes: :eek:

[molly muffin]

hehehe, I know, pesky drawer, bad bad drawer. LOL

Okay, intresting, the first LDDS was actually in May 2010. negative Man time flies, I was thinking it had only been going on since May 2011, but I guess it's been 4 years now, we've been dealing with this mystery. I typo'd the first one.

Anyway, protein in urine and I think I don't have all of them, since she has urine cultures etc, all the time due to those dratted crystals.

So, here is the history and we've never been at +2 before:

april 2014 protein +2 read over phone to me by IMS

dec 2013 no protein fat droplets +2 Bacteria +2

may 2013 protein .3 +1 fat droplet +1 WEB +1 bacterai +1 leukocytes +1

Dec 2012 protein trace bacteria +1

Aug 2012 protein trace (chem strip)

June 2011 no protein (chem strip)

Doesn't seem to tell us much, other than no protein was in urine in December at all. I remember my vet telling me that and that we didn't have to worry about protein, so was a bit surprised to find that I might need to be worrying about protein. However, they throw protein if anything is going on as Addy reminded me. So, is something Else going on. Gads, something else to talk over with the IMS.

*sigh*

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Ohhh is there a party going on that I am missing?!?! Going to catch up, but I am suspecting that dang drawer is open!!!!

[Trish]

All caught up..
1. I don't think Molly has a pheo, no symptoms of it anyway!
2. Good no protein just in December and like you said they can throw it from somewhere and Molly was under the weather for a bit not that long ago, Flynn's is usually a 3+ and positivie UPCR.
3. OH YUM, godiva eggs, lucky hubby!
4. OMG your dinner sounds divine, good thinking to share out the vegies too!

x

[Tina]

Lol, hey Trish! Yes, the drawer is open. It is possessed, I tell you! :rolleyes:

Sharlene, what is the .3 in May 2013? That sounds like it may be a UPC result? I don't think the dipsticks measure like that. And yes, they can throw protein for many reasons.

Your dinner does sound fabulous. You and hubs both must be wonderful cooks!

[molly muffin]

That is all it said: Protein 0.3 g/L (1+)
It was from the Culture and Sensitivity test, microbiology Report - Final
It doesn't say it's a UPC, but it might be.

I agree, I don't see any symptoms of a pheo activity. BP, etc, changes in behavior, refusing to eat (that dog will Always eat chicken) head hanging down, weak, none of it. But then I don't see any signs of high cortisol, cushings either. She Is a mystery for sure.

hmm, well he is a wonderful cook, he just never has time to indulge it like he use to. Holidays are the exception. I'm an okay, average cook. I have to be in the mood though. :)

sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

She is that for sure, I love how she is going about her day blissfully unaware you are concerned and popping up to check what is going on! Too cute! Be good if it was a UPC but doesn't sound like it is, must be just a different more accurate way of reporting it.

He does sound a bit of a MasterChef! I love your criteria!!

[Trish]

Hey Sharlene, I just thought of something!!!

If you sit down for your dinner at 8pm and I have my lunch at 12pm we will be having our Easter Feasts at exactly the same time :D:D

[molly muffin]

LOL Trish, yes we would be having feasts at the same time! LOL

Man, Molly's nose is twitching like crazy. Hubs just warmed up some spaghetti and meatballs. She is not getting any of it but it's killing her and we are very mean mommy and daddy.

Had to step out, molly the little minx, who hasn't had an accident in the house since I don't know when, just went into the kitchen and peed a river. Laid down and watched me clean it up and then we went outside for a walk again. She didn't drink more than usual today and the IMS just told me on Thursday that her kidneys are working fine and concentrating well. It Was yellow, so I guess that part is right. All I can think is maybe attitude? Usually if she isn't getting enough attention that is when she will have an accident in the house. I think she's had plenty of attention today, so beats me.

Always something.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Tina]

Oh gosh Sharlene, you don't think she has an infection do you? Was her recent UA all clear from that aspect? Just thinking out loud because that could certainly affect the protein.

I have been having some problems with Jasper having accidents in the house the past couple of weeks. I need to post an update on him. I hope it isn't turning into something behavioral.

Spaghetti and meatballs sounds good right about now!

[molly muffin]

No, the IMS doesn't Think she has a UTI, the urinalysis came back clear and since she is concentrating there shouldn't be a problem with it showing up. We are waiting on a culture to come back and we'll know for sure. I think alot of it is attitude with molly, but the ACTH she just had did make her drink lots of water, which has been back to normal amount today. Maybe she didn't go enough on her 10pm walk.

Oh my gosh, I just realized it's 2am! She is normally in bed at this point. Gads.

I should go to bed too.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Well that is weird, does she usually let you know when she needs to go out?? Must be leftover from ACTH and maybe not going enough on her walk. Oops your off to bed, sorry I just popped the chocolate cake in the oven. One of tonights jobs ticked off! Have a good sleep!! Still only 6pm here

[molly muffin]

So today, hubby was in the kitchen and I was coming up the stairs from the basement and we heard molly yipping in what sounded like pain. We both ran into the living room, where she was up in the window seat and holding her left front paw up. I totally was freaking out, thinking we needed to head to emergency. The problem was that we couldn't see a problem. Hubby thought she was having a muscle spasms in her front leg shoulder, but nothing seemed to actually be wrong with the paw or any joint. Yet she wouldn't put any weight on it and it was making her back legs all wonky trying to hold herself up. I had to give her support under her chest. We opted to put her in her crate and give her some forced rest, then evaluate how she was. So, 2 hours later at least, maybe longer, while she cried and said we were being mean to her, (she did have water and everything she needed, but she wanted to be out and about.) So we notice she is putting weight on the front paw now and shifting from foot to foot in her impatience to be out, so we opened the door and little miss bounced out of the crate, into the kitchen, peed on the kitchen floor, and not a problem at all with walking on the leg. She is on restriction again, and I'm not letting her jump. I don't know what happened, if it was really the front paw or if it was her back or the back leg that is wonky (she was holding it stiff too) or a combination, but she was having problems and doesn't seem to be now.

I think maybe her and Trixie compared notes. Hubs said she wouldn't do a high five with that paw, so either, paw, back or something Is bothering her, but we don't know for sure and just have to watch her. I'm glad I'm home with her tomorrow, but it's going to be rough if she can't go up in the window while I am away. That is the one place she could jump and have no problems getting up and down because it isn't that high. :(

Now something else to worry about. Hub said maybe she pulled the muscle a bit or something, but I worry about her back and about her back legs. I took her for a mini walk and she was just fine, I wouldn't let her do any steps, even one, I picked her up, which annoyed her, but better safe than sorry.

We go along just fine for so long, years even with minor bumps only and this just feels like it is turning into the week from hell.

hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Oh Sharlene, I am so sorry! You deserved to have a worry-free day and this has turned out to be a big worry! And orthopedic/muscular stuff can be so hard to identify. I am hoping it was just a temporary strain of some sort. By any chance, did you check her nails to make sure one isn't cracked or torn? That's just one far-fetched thought that comes to my mind, but once Peg was crying and hobbling and that's what it turned out to be with her -- somehow she had cracked a nail into the quick, and she sure didn't want to put any weight on that paw for awhile...

[molly muffin]

I don't know Marianne, I don't see what looks like any of them cracked, but she is laying with both her front legs curled under her.

What was so scary is that molly never has yelped in pain like that. Even when her back was hurt she would lay around but not making the in pain noises. She isn't having her deep sleeps right now where she snorts and makes a lot of noise, it's quiet and she doesn't want to be messed with. So, something isn't right, but she isn't limping right now either. It might be her back leg too that went wonky. Now that I know she has that problem with her leg I notice more what is going on with it.

I'm just going to keep an eye on her for tonight and tomorrow. See how she acts. She has one more walk coming up and I'll see how she does on that too.

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Could Molly gave stepped on a bee or other biting insect? That happened to Buddy. I took him to the vet because he wouldn't put any weight on his front paw. The vet found a bee stinger. Just a thought....

[molly muffin]

I just took her out for her last night walkies and she walked just fine. We didn't go far, because that wasn't the point of this one, just to let her potty and see how she stood and walked on it. It took a lot to convince her to get up to go, but once we were outside she walked fine, so I don't think it is on the bottom of the paw. Then she Ran to the kitchen for her cosequin treat. I went to lift the left paw and she fell over, down on her bum. I don't know if it was because she couldn't put all her weight on her front right leg or if it was her back, because I couldn't get her to lift her back rear legs at all.
She is currently not allowed to jump up on anything, again.

sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

I'm so sorry Sharlene.:o Poor Molly. They think we are being mean because they really don't get it. So worrisome.:o xxxxx

[doxiesrock912]

Awww, hopefully she just strained something and that it will heal soon.

[Trish]

HI Sharlene

Hope the dinner went well in between this worry with Molly. I wonder if she hurt the paw jumping onto the window seat. Just the yelp and then immediately holding the paw into the air makes me think it was something sudden?? :confused: Pleased it came right over the day, if I go to examine Flynn's paws and he is standing he can topple down too, trying to get me to stop I think!! Wonder why she pee'ed inside again though, twice in two days after never having done that? Maybe just reaction after being in her crate and not getting outside fast enough probably.

I bet she jumps out of bed in the morning just fine!! Probably see you tomorrow sometime seeming as we are still ladies of leisure :D xx

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Wow it is always something isn't it? Maybe she jumped down and sort of stoves her leg. Tipper used to do that every once and a while after she would jump down from the sofa. Then she would limp and make me think there was really something wrong. Later in the day she would run thru the house. I think Molly must be calling Trixie on the phone when you are not home and getting pointers on how to keep you on your toes! Hope this is not going to turn into anything. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

She walked okay this morning. Had one incident of limping while on the walk but I think she might have stepped on something as she held up the other paw (putting pressure on the right one to do so) and I wiped that paw off just in case, and then she was fine again.

If it wasn't for the back injury previously I would probably be okay with thinking she strained, sprained, pulled something on that front leg on the jump up.

Either way, she is not allowed to jump on anything for a couple days till I see she is back to where she was before this. I'm trying the ramp to the window seat, but so far she is refusing to use it. She barks at it just fine, but won't use the ramp or the steps to get up there.

The dinner turned out lovely. That blueberry reduction with the ham was perfect and even one of the guys who doesn't care that much for ham, went back for seconds. The salmon was perfect too, and everyone really enjoyed themselves I think. Our friend made a wonderful peach cake. Probably the best I have ever had.

Molly is asleep and gently snoring. Her and I are going to take it easy today. I need to finish doing some kitchen cleaning, run some laundry through as I didn't do any of that this weekend. Then tomorrow back to work.

I'll have to debate whether to work from home for the rest of the week to keep an eye on her or if I think I can go into the office tomorrow and thursday.

Hubs is thinking the ACTH combined with maybe some pain from the leg, add on a house full of people, which she has had accidents during visits before. If she is going to have an accident that is in fact usually when it would happen, so he might be right.

hugs all,

[beaglemom3]

Hi Sharlene, sorry to hear about Molly leg, but I have had that happen to Brando a few times and a day or two of complete crate rest except for potty, fixed it, sometimes they sleep funny or they step down wrong and strain their leg. I am hoping that is all it is where Molly is concerned.

If you notice her walking on her tip toe a lot that could be a sign she tore her ACL which Snuggles did 2 years ago (his back leg) and we had surgery to fix that but I am hoping that is not the case for Molly.

HUGS!!

[addy]

well, Miss Molly, you need to stop worrying mama:) I think your hubby is on track with all the testing, ACTH injection, company, well, just a whole bunch of stress for little Molly.

Hope things go well today and she gets back on track. Enjoy resting!!! If you get to;)

[apollo6]

Dear Sharlene,you and Molly ,just rest today. With Cushings we are even more stressed for our furballs. As Addy would say"put the cushing's in the drawer for the day" just enjoy the right now times.
Hugs Sonja and Angel Apollo

[Woodydog]

Now Miss Molly you have to stop worrying your mum she is already worried and now your limping.! I hope she has just pulled something whilst jumping on the window seat. Plenty of rest required for you both,

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I am wondering how Miss Molly leg is this morning? Tipper is acting like nothing happened. I bet if she would jump off the bed again it might start up though. It is rainy here and dreary, but that is OK as I need a rest, I am not feeling great today. At least it is not snow!! Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Molly too is acting like nothing happened. However because of her back, she is on restricted jumping again. Not happy at the moment and refusing to use the ramp to the window seat, so we'll have to work on that.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Molly just starts to get you trained and then you have to go and blow it! I bet she's told you where you can put that ramp! lol :D:D:D

Buddy's ramp actually helped him a lot. As soon as he realized it was his ticket to guard duty in the window, he used it all the time. He was very reluctant at first though and I had to bribe him with treats to get him to go up it. I also had to barricade around it so he wouldn't jump off the window seat. It finally came to the point where his rear legs were too weak to even use the ramp anymore. That was a sad day indeed. Xxxxx

[molly muffin]

I'm sure I disappoint her, switching things around. LOL I hope she'll adapt to the ramp, it would make me feel a lot better. I have two big body pillows the length of the ramp, one on each side. These also block her off being able to jump up to the window seat. She has a clear path, not even at a steep angle, but she's stubborn. I'll try the treats on the ramp. They didn't work on the stair to the window seat.
Did I mention stubborn?

Oh yes, that would be very sad for them when they can't see out the window seat. :( Sad for Buddy and sad for you too.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Little minx, I think she gets it from her Mom!! I bet she will gallop up there if there are treats on offer!! Gosh, pleased she has not signs of it now.

Are you working from home today?

[beaglemom3]

So happy to hear Molly isn't limping anymore! Hopefully treats will lure her up the ramp.

[doxiesrock912]

They're such brats. Daisy won't use a ramp. I think that the steepness bothers her.
I'm glad that Molly seems to be herself again.

[molly muffin]

We have had a break through and all it took was Little Ceasar Filet Mignon treats.
I put the ramp up and the stairs next to it with the body pillows on each side.

With a treat on each step, she slowly went up, then I left her to try to figure out how to get down. She wanted to use the ramp, but it was too slick for her. (not to self, carpet the ramp) However, she finally came down the steps to get her next treat. We did this several times, then I stopped the treats, except, she starting going up and down the steps on her own, like, Look mom, I did it, give me treats! hahahaha

I've removed the ramp and the steps are there now, so if she wants them she can use them. I'll wait and do the treat thing all over again later. I think it will take Much reinforcement, but she has it figured out. Memory and removal of fear is the key I think.

Congratulations Molly Muffin. My star diva

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Nope, I didn't work from home today. I went into the office which I'm glad I did since the Marketing Director was in today too. We tease each other about how we each thought the other must have gotten fed up and quit it had been so long since we saw each other. LOL All good and him and I have great yak sessions where we throw ideas around, bantering back and forth like crazy. It's both fun and productive. So that was a bonus. Then I came home and played with molly before logging back into work and taking care of a few items.

I'll work from home tomorrow and then go to the office Thursday and then home on Friday. It's a crazy schedule I admit but it works okay for me.

I'd honestly rather be from home all the time, but that human interaction is important or I could become a hermit!!! I'd hate that, as I am fairly social personality. You guys might have guessed that already. hahaha But I admit I love being home for molly too.

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Just got a call from my IMS. Molly's UCP ratio is .8 which is a bit elevated. .2 is nothing, .5 is borderline. Recommendation is to retest in 3 - 4 weeks.

Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

I dont think I would even worry about that:):):):) I'm sure it will be fine.

[Trish]

Good idea to recheck to see if it is reproducible. As we have seen if a dog is off then it can throw this darn protein. So annoying to have another thing to worry about! Did she think the stones could be responsible?

[molly muffin]

Cushings, stones, anything, yes could be the culprit. No infection though, so that was good, although I didn't expect anything there. Molly wasn't acting like she does with an infection, but I guess it always has to be ruled out.

Sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

I am currently checking out hotels in Budapest. Looking for an excellent hotel in the city center. Man I love tripadvisor. Remember travel before the internet??!! LOL

Sharlene

[Trish]

Her BP was OK wasn't it?

[molly muffin]

They took 3 BP, the highest was 144 (138 - 144) So, went down each time they took it and it might be actually lower, as they think white coat syndrome caused the higher readings.

Sharlene

[addy]

Technically, over .5 retest but gosh, she has kidneys stones, they must play a part in this, at least it seems so to me. What did the IMS say?

[molly muffin]

She said that the stones, cushings, could be causing it to go up and it might not stay up, but fluctuate. She might have said retest at .5 borderline (ish)? There was an ICU patient so she couldn't talk for more than a few minutes. She said, we're still waiting to see what the UofT panel looks like. She mentioned she'd have the girls email results I'm waiting on (ultrasound report) that there was a problem with the email, so she'd ask them to do it and hope they get it done tonight.

So, that will give us figures and I told her that I want to compare sizes of various things on the ultrasound report.

Sharlene

[Trish]

Get her eyes tested too, just to make sure the vessels in the back are OK. Normal vet can do that. BP sounds good though.

You off to Budapest, love tripadvisor and always use it when planning a trip! I bet there are some cute little older style places with a ton of character to stay in!

[Trixie]

I can't believe I missed this news on Molly!!! :eek: Our dogs have the same issue..limping, holding up paws! What the heck is it!!! :confused: I was also thinking maybe a shoulder strain?? When I massage it she doesn't seem bothered by it.

Wow, I feel like it's almost exactly what is going on with Trixie. Wish these dogs could talk!!!
How is Molly today? Any more limping? It's so worrisome. ugh. Why one thing after the next?? :confused:
I hope Molly's clears up and that she's feeling good and walking fine soon.
So..on the test results? A retest in a few weeks? For now everything is okay?
You're going to Budapest?? I was just reading the NYTimes travel section and they had the most beautiful photo of the bridges joining Buda to Pest...I would love to go someday. Trip Adviser is the best! I love seeing the user photos you can really get a truthful picture of a hotel...a great site for planning travel.

Barbara

[mcdavis]

Oh, poor Miss Molly - I think Hamish did something similar many years ago when he got a grass seed in his paw. There was nothing to see but he didn't want to put it on the ground so they gave me some cream to put on and he was fine within a few days.
I haven't been to Budapest, but have heard it's a beautiful city - enjoy!!

[Iraklis]

I can't believe I missed this news on Molly!!! :eek: Our dogs have the same issue..limping, holding up paws! What the heck is it!!! :confused: I was also thinking maybe a shoulder strain?? When I massage it she doesn't seem bothered by it.



???
This gets me wondering about Husko too...as i was not present when father said he tripped and hurt his leg...he had tripped b4 and nothing happened...

He would hold it up, as if broken and refuse to touch the ground...but when massaged he stretched it...
Any thoughts?another Vetoryl side-effect?
:confused::confused::confused:

[Trish]

Molly is not on vetoryl so that rule's that out!

It is weird on the forum how there can be spate of similar problems, I hope the sore paw problem is banished soon!

[doxiesrock912]

Remember that with Cushings there is muscle wasting so I imagine that they can strain paws and other body parts more easily.

[molly muffin]

I am thinking it must have been a muscle strain at the time. She hasn't acted like it is bothering her at all since then. Hubs felt a bit of muscle spasm in the shoulder afterwards as we were massaging it. The neuro report said they checked all 4 legs and other than the luxating knee here legs are good and her back is good too now according to report so shouldn't be that.

Molly is cool with the steps up to window now but doesn't want to come back down.

Could just be some muscle strain as all these dogs are the go get'em gang. Weird that trixie has both front legs acting up though.

The other possibility is cortisol I suppose. For Molly she was just coming off what I swear was a cortisol high from that ACTH test. The dog had so much energy she was go go go. She is now back to normal and no more accidents in house. Which really makes it clear what it would be like if she had those levels constantly in her body.

I fell asleep and had this weird dream that there was a cheetah stalking Molly and I in some wasteland of a street and I had picked Molly up to protect her and then was kicking at the cheetah. Well I kicked for real too and whopped my calf a good one on the recliner. Might have a bruise tomorrow. I blame reading Cains thread and Patti's story of tipper right before I fell asleep!

I do have the report from the IMS but need to compare it to the older ultrasound report. I will give more feedback on that tomorrow. I have a headache tonight so not going to dive in or I know it will be worse.

Night all
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Trish]

Eeek, stalking cheetahs!! Oh you poor thing ending up with a bruised leg, no wonder you have a headache with that stress Sharlene. Be looking out for your review of the report.

I have also just been reading reports, I emailed Flynn's old surgeon at the pet hospital to get his histology report on adrenalaectomy, I never had the proper one. He has kindly sent that to me, I wanted it to show the Auckland IMS after they noted that weird lymph node in the location of his previuos adrenalectomy on the last scan. Least I have it now, as it is a new IMS I am going to do a history again and send it up with my questions so he gets fair warning of what I will be asking!

[Budsters Mom]

So sorry you have a headache, Sharlene :o Reading post can't possibly help, so get some rest.

I had a really freaky dream the other night. It is obvious that I read too many posts and get to know all of you and your pups. We were all at a big stadium. All of us pet parents were in the stands and all of our dogs were loose on the grass area below. We were called one by one and had to go down to the field and do a memory match game with all the dogs. We had to connect the dogs with their parents. Naturally, since this was a dream Buddy was there too. He was chasing lizards all over the field, so he was easy to identify. I was summoned over the loudspeaker to appear on the field below. I thought it was my turn. A man in a referees uniform came out on the field carrying Rosie. He said that we had to leave and could not participate. When I asked why, he said that monkeys were not allowed on the field. That this activity was for dogs and their pet parents only. He said that Buddy could stay, but Rosie had to go. Everyone then started yelling from the bleachers. Let her stay, we know she's a monkey! That's when I woke up.

Don't you feel better about your dream now? Lol xxxxxx

[Tina]

Hi Sharlene,
Not that Jasper needs to be a joiner with any more issues, but here is part of what I posted on Barbara and Trixie's thread from a couple of days ago:


I know this will not surprise you, but a few weeks ago I had a scare with Jasper like that. I was in another room and actually heard him cry out, which he never does. I went running and he was holding up one of his front legs and wouldn't bear any weight. This is the first time he has ever done this, of course. I have no idea what he did but I nearly panicked. All I could think about was what now, and what if he tore something.

I checked it over real good, and it didn't seem painful to touch, and after about an hour he seemed much better and by that night pretty much normal. Still don't know what happened, but it scared the daylights out of me for sure. He and Shelby play rough quite a bit, and now since then I am so paranoid, I make them stop.

This happened a couple of weeks ago. WTH?? :eek: :rolleyes:

[molly muffin]

That is basically exactly the same as Molly. A cry and then no weight on foot. Then fine. Crazy isn't it! At least we are all in good company. :-)
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Could this possibly be some type of ligament in the front leg these babies are irritating? Tipper seems fine today. The only other thing I can think of is the hair between their pads. Tipper was limping one time off and on, and here the vet found hair between her pad that had formed a hard ball. Once it was out no limping!! So maybe Molly or Trixie could have that. It was up there deep into the crack between her pads. I could only hope it is this simple!! Blessings
Patti

[Iraklis]

I am thinking it must have been a muscle strain at the time. She hasn't acted like it is bothering her at all since then. Hubs felt a bit of muscle spasm in the shoulder afterwards as we were massaging it. The neuro report said they checked all 4 legs and other than the luxating knee here legs are good and her back is good too now according to report so shouldn't be that.

Molly is cool with the steps up to window now but doesn't want to come back down.

Could just be some muscle strain as all these dogs are the go get'em gang. Weird that trixie has both front legs acting up though.

The other possibility is cortisol I suppose. For Molly she was just coming off what I swear was a cortisol high from that ACTH test. The dog had so much energy she was go go go. She is now back to normal and no more accidents in house. Which really makes it clear what it would be like if she had those levels constantly in her body.





sorry if i don't understand correctly ,but the muscle strain was better giving prednisone?
Husko did not step on his left paw for a month...i am 100% sure tho it was not broken.

Hope you're feeling better!!!

[Trixie]

How was Molly this morning? Any evidence of a limp or pain. Trixie was perfectly fine. I posted on a novel on my own thread about this. ;)
I hope Molly's doing fine today. Have you compared all your newest tests to your previous ones yet? Nothing like all those numbers to get the nerves going again right??? ;)

Barbara

[Squirt's Mom]

Iraklis (pardon the hijack! :D), I don't think Sharlene has given Molly Pred. She is talking about the effect of the ACTH test on the cortisol level in the body. Cortisol is natural and is supposed to be present in our bodies. The ACTH test squeezes all the cortisol out of the adrenal glands and into the blood stream, giving some pups that "high" mentioned above.

Cortisol acts like a natural anti-inflammatory in the body so while the levels are higher we are apt to see less signs of inflammatory pain - which is why once treatment starts we start to see things like arthritis come out. ;)

[molly muffin]

Yes, exactly what Leslie said. :) I don't give molly any steroid/pred due to the already enlarged adrenal glands/liver, I wouldn't want to add to the mix if it was unnecessary.

She is acting just fine on the leg, only Sunday was there any real issue. The neurological report evaluated her legs and said they were good. In fact her neuro report is stunningly good. Yay!! :) She is bright eyed, alert, tail high over her back. Back seems good, legs good except for that one knee, so I'm going with it was a once off, landed wrong on the window seat.

I'll post the comparison when I get it done gang. :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

I haven't done a comparison yet with the last ultrasound. I'm working today, so even though from home, it's been pretty busy. I know I need to and perhaps I am just procrastinating? Pretty sure of it actually. I'll dig both out tonight and do that.

[Iraklis]

Iraklis (pardon the hijack! :D), I don't think Sharlene has given Molly Pred. She is talking about the effect of the ACTH test on the cortisol level in the body. Cortisol is natural and is supposed to be present in our bodies. The ACTH test squeezes all the cortisol out of the adrenal glands and into the blood stream, giving some pups that "high" mentioned above.

Cortisol acts like a natural anti-inflammatory in the body so while the levels are higher we are apt to see less signs of inflammatory pain - which is why once treatment starts we start to see things like arthritis come out. ;)

Got it!
Another reason why i shouldn't have started Vetoryl (or at least lower dose even more) again in February...stupid idiotic me...:(:(:(
#threadjack-over#:o:o:o

[beaglemom3]

Glad to hear Molly's leg is feeling better and nice report! awesome!

[mcdavis]

Yes, exactly what Leslie said. :) I don't give molly any steroid/pred due to the already enlarged adrenal glands/liver, I wouldn't want to add to the mix if it was unnecessary.

She is acting just fine on the leg, only Sunday was there any real issue. The neurological report evaluated her legs and said they were good. In fact her neuro report is stunningly good. Yay!! :) She is bright eyed, alert, tail high over her back. Back seems good, legs good except for that one knee, so I'm going with it was a once off, landed wrong on the window seat.

I'll post the comparison when I get it done gang. :)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

I haven't done a comparison yet with the last ultrasound. I'm working today, so even though from home, it's been pretty busy. I know I need to and perhaps I am just procrastinating? Pretty sure of it actually. I'll dig both out tonight and do that.

Pleased to hear that Miss Molly is doing well :D

[molly muffin]

Okay, so lets get the UPC and urine stuff out of the way first:

Urine Protein 154mg
Urine Creatinine 16238umol
Urine Pr/Creat Ratio .8
Specific gravity 1.031
PH 7.0
color yellow and clear
culture - nothing

sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Ultrasound comparions I'm posting the results from 2012 first followed by the 2014 results.


July 15, 2012

liver mildly enlarged, diffusely hyperechoic, and margins are rounded

gall bladder moderate amount of echogenic debris present

bile duct normal

stomach wall measures .25cm to .27cm

spleen normal

left kidney 4.86cm hyperechoic speckling in the cortex and mild decrease in corticomedullary definition

left adrenal gland .80cm and .68cm, mildly enlarged with the caudal pole larger than the cranial pole

urinary bladder wall mildly thickened at the apex .32cm to .43cm, lumen not fully distended

mucosa mildly hperechoic and irregular and two small calculi presnet .18cm and .24 cm

colon normal .14cm - .17cm

right kidney similar to left kidney 4.44 cm length

small non-obstructive calculi present .28cm

right adrenal gland .56cm and .74cm (.69cm and .60cm) and is upper reference of size to mildly enlarged

pancreas normal

small intestine normal .35cm

mesenteric lymph nodes mildly enlarged .33cm by 1.97cm


April 20, 2014

liver is enlarged and hyperchoic with rounded margins

gall bladder has mild echogenic debris, no obstruction

bile duct is normal

stomach is normal and wall measures .28cm

spleen is normal

left kidney measures 5.22cm mild loss of corticomedullary definitions, cortical speckling no obstructive mineralizations and renoliths .16cm by .39cm

left adrenal gland enlarged cranial pole .73cm and caudal pols has a nodule present measures 1.30cm by 1.26cm

urinary bladder wall appears mildly thickened but not fully distended

colon is normal wall measures .14cm

right kidney measures 4.70cm and is similar in appearance to the left, renolith .18cm

right adrenal gland mildly enlarged, .82cm and .93cm

pancreas is mildly mottled

small intestine is normal wall measures .22cm

lymph nodes are normal


Case summary, ultrasound demonstrated mild hepatomegaly with rounded margins and a diffusely hyperechoic echogenicity.
adrenal glands mildly enlarged and a nodule noted on left adrenal gland.

blood pressure measurement demonstrated mild hypertension.

urinalysis demonstrated concentrated urine and proteinuria

liver changes and adrenal gland enlargement could be supportive of hyperadrenocorticism.

Differential diagnoses based on ultrasound include pituitary dependent hyperadrenocorticism with asymmetrical hypertrophy of benign or malignant adrenal nodule (adenoma, functional adrenal tumour, phechromocytoma) or hypertrophy secondary to systemic disease (unlikely).

Previous LDDS normal. Could reflect false negative testing, atypical hyperadrenocorticism or possible that molly does not have hyperadrenocorticism.

If University of Tenn results is negative, liver biopsy may be warranted.

I was VERY sure she told me she thought benign on the adrenal nodule when speaking with her but she clearly writes malignant on the report, so I think I want some clarification on that. Still waiting on UTenn results to come back before any further discussions.

I admit, it is so hard, when molly is running around, playing, bright eyed to even think of a malignant tumor and it has me feeling a bit down every since I read the report last night. It still seems that they don't know what is going on with her, what is actually causing the high cortisol, nor what kind of tumor this is. Plus they seem to say if she does have cushings, she has both pituitary and an adrenal tumor. What the heck!!

I have to go to my other computer to do it, but I will post 3 jpegs of the latest ultrasound report. Hopefully readable as I had to convert from pdf. :)

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Iraklis]

phechromocytoma

Have you looked into this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheochromocytoma

I noticed one of the symptoms is anxiety ,which could lead to excess cortisol i think

[flynnandian]

I was VERY sure she told me she thought benign on the adrenal nodule when speaking with her but she clearly writes malignant on the report, so I think I want some clarification on that. Still waiting on UTenn results to come back before any further discussions


hi sharlene, that sounds very confusing for you. i hope the other results from the university will put some light on this matter.

luckily molly feels fine!

[molly muffin]

Based on the other dogs that we've had on here with a pheo, Molly doesn't seem to be exhibit the sort of symptoms that might be seen with a pheo, so it isn't my first thought, but it also isn't impossible. No weight loss, no anxiety (that isn't storm related anyhow), glucose is fine, her BP is not overly high and I've seen no sign of bursts of high BP happening. So while neither I nor the IMS are ruling it out I'm not 100% on board the pheo option. Yet. Anything is possible and things change too. I was thinking non functional nodule. As I've never seen a dog with a secreting adrenal tumor pass the LDDS test. They can't suppress usually because it just secrets no matter what. However, that being said, I am thinking one option is that now that this nodule IS there, we'll have to redo that LDDS because it May if that tumor is secreting, no longer be a negative. If it is, then I'm back to thinking non functional, but we'll see. So many questions yet to be answered. I feel like a picture Leslie posted once, I don't know if I'm coming or going at this point.

Sharlene and molly muffin

[Iraklis]

ummm...MRI?
That would answer a lot of questions...




hi sharlene, that sounds very confusing for you.

In my experience too...ultrasounds and vets doing them tend to give rise to more questions than answer them...and their conclusions are vague and sometimes misleading...

[beaglemom3]

Based on the other dogs that we've had on here with a pheo, Molly doesn't seem to be exhibit the sort of symptoms that might be seen with a pheo, so it isn't my first thought, but it also isn't impossible. No weight loss, no anxiety (that isn't storm related anyhow), glucose is fine, her BP is not overly high and I've seen no sign of bursts of high BP happening. So while neither I nor the IMS are ruling it out I'm not 100% on board the pheo option. Yet. Anything is possible and things change too. I was thinking non functional nodule. As I've never seen a dog with a secreting adrenal tumor pass the LDDS test. They can't suppress usually because it just secrets no matter what. However, that being said, I am thinking one option is that now that this nodule IS there, we'll have to redo that LDDS because it May if that tumor is secreting, no longer be a negative. If it is, then I'm back to thinking non functional, but we'll see. So many questions yet to be answered. I feel like a picture Leslie posted once, I don't know if I'm coming or going at this point.

Sharlene and molly muffin

Sharlene, I know exactly how you are feeling, you are describing my Snuggles, he has no outward pheo tumor symptoms, no weight gain, no bp spikes, no panting, etc etc so far and he was diagnosed with it back in October 2013. and he did test positive for Cushings back then, which pheos can do that too.


I hope Molly does not have a pheo,
but I would suggest having either the plasma free blood test or the urine test to see if Molly does have a pheo, at least you will be able to know one way or the other. From what I have read both are fairly accurate.
and I agree too an MRI would give more info than the ultrasound as it did in my case with Snugs and Branny and it confirmed the urine test results which was positive for a pheo.
Thinking of you and Molly HUGS

[labblab]

Hey Sharlene, I don't know if it will make you feel better, but the original report references either a benign or malignant adrenal nodule. So I'm banking on "benign!"

Marianne

[molly muffin]

OMG you are right Marianne. I think I was upset when I saw malignant and somehow my brain blanked on the benign. So she did say, she thinks likely benign. whew that is a huge relief actually. Thank you, thank you for reading the report and catching that.
Now I feel like I can breath again.
I actually walked out of the house when I read that and got in the car and did some retail therapy before coming back home to finish typing.

Super Big hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Hi Sharlene

UPC comments: To me the protein is low in the UPC but the Cr is a little high, when Flynn has had results like that the ratio goes higher, I think it has a lot to do with his level of hydration at the time. I know this test is meant to take that into account, but I have noticed the fluctuations in the Cr can make it differ a lot. 2nd to last UPC was the best ever for him and the Cr was in the 1200 range, when it has been up in the 1600 range like Molly's is then I have found a higher ratio. I did not let him drink too much on the good one and he got a much better result. Molly's Sp gravity is good and great no sign of UTI.

US comments: I am glad Marianne put you right with the benign comment!! That must have made you feel much better, funny when we get info overload sometimes we focus on the bad bits! I am with you and not real confident of the pheo diagnosis. One thing I would want clarifying is can they differentiate where the adrenal nodule is situated ie if it is arising in the medulla of the gland it makes it more likely to be pheo. I am not convinced of the efficacy of the either the blood or urine testing for pheo's, they just do not have the numbers in the studies. Both his surgeon/IMS involved in the adrenalectomy said it is a dodgy due to that, plus there are no definite reference ranges for these tests in dogs. I also asked the new IMS about this and he said the same that there is hardly any blood/urine testing being done because of this. Humans yes, but it appears to me there is more research needed in this area for dogs and I hope in the future there are better tests so the veterinary specialists are more confident with their use. I would be interested to hear what you find out about this from your IMS. What made them suspect Flynn's was the ultrasound/CT and also his clinical symptoms ie hypertension. But pheo symptoms in dogs are often episodic and as you say Molly has not shown any of them. Most articles say that a definite diagnosis for pheo is only made on histology when it is removed, until then it can be speculation. I would be inclined in a non-symptomatic dog to rescan in 3 months and see what was happening. I would want to check if there were any signs of any spread if it was malignant eg get a CXR to check lungs, or if they decide to proceed to CT to get a better picture of adrenal mass then get the chest done at the same time which was what was done for Flynn. Hopefully you get the atypical results back soon and then can move on from there. In the meantime I am going to go for the adenoma too, they are more common afterall in our pups and Molly can just join Flynn on the monitoring programme as he also has one on his remaining adrenal and its not doing anything. Great no lumps in the liver!! But agree biopsy could give more info there. x

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
For what it's worth I researched the tests available for pheos and I personally decided not to do one with Tipper because of all the false positives they can have. Then I would be crazy thinking my dog had a pheo when in fact she might not. When are they going to get clarification to you about the malignant part? It is hard to believe sometimes all that can be going on inside our babies, but it seems Molly is doing well according to the reports. I pray this is just an adenoma like they think about Tipper's. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

I was scouring that report for the word "malignant"! I didn't see it either so let's just put that out of our minds, 'k? I'm banking on a benign, non-secreting nodule that is there simply to confuse us. Overall, it doesn't look that bad to me tho I would want the liver further investigated and if funds allowed, a closer look at the adrenals if they thought a MRI or CT would be beneficial.

Now, learn from me, Sharlene. Do not let this get you so balled up you stop taking care of yourself. Remember, YOU are the most important factor in all of this. ;)

[beaglemom3]

Sharlene:
For what it's worth I researched the tests available for pheos and I personally decided not to do one with Tipper because of all the false positives they can have. Then I would be crazy thinking my dog had a pheo when in fact she might not. When are they going to get clarification to you about the malignant part? It is hard to believe sometimes all that can be going on inside our babies, but it seems Molly is doing well according to the reports. I pray this is just an adenoma like they think about Tipper's. Blessings
Patti

Patti the research I founds says both the urine and plasma free blood tests have a high accuracy rate, ofc any type of urine or blood tests can give a false reading for one reason or another, can you please post the links to where you read these 2 particular tests have a high rate of false positives?

[goldengirl88]

I will try to find them, it has been so long since I researched it I can't remember, but I am positive they said there were many false positives or I would have done it with tipper, and I even asked the vet and he concurred with that

[molly muffin]

They did chest xrays I think it was to check lungs as I mentioned breathing issues and they have come back clear, so I don't think that there is anything there.

The IMS said she would not do an MRI at this time (that might change who knows) as there is no guarantee that you spend $2000. and that it will show anything. (we were talking at the time about a pituitary tumor)

Okay, I think it is molly's paw not her leg, but I can't be certain. It happened again this morning but no yelping. She was in my closet while I was changing clothes, sniffing around and I looked over and she was laying down and not moving. When she Finally tried to get up, she held up her paw and wouldn't move for a bit, then tried to move and limped awful. I picked her up and massaged that paw and foot and then took her downstairs, as I knew she's have to go outside, put her down and she was right as rain and had a good walk. I went over that paw thoroughly and can't see a problem, toes are all movable with no snapping (as they would if one was hurt) Maybe a toenail?

I had to go to the office today, no choice, but came home this afternoon and took her out, she is walking not with a limp but a couple times a bit gimpy and then walked slow on her outside walk. Not sure what the problem is, but doesn't seem to be in the shoulder joint that I can tell. She just passed a neuro test on her legs with flying colors, so again, baffled. That seems to be the state molly always leaves me in.

Leslie it does say benign or malignant. I just missed the benign part first go around and you missed the malignant part. LOL They don't know in other words.

I can ask them about the test for pheo and her thoughts on it and report back what she says. (this will be After we get the UTenn results)

I'll ask about the exact location of the nodule Trish.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Well with our four eyes we will eventually get it all! :p

[beaglemom3]

Sharlene, glad Molly's lungs are clear, that's good to hear. It does sound like her paw though, did you look in between the toes? to see if anything is lodged in it a pebble or splinter or cut of some sort?

As for the pheo tests, my vet had confidence in the urine test we took but here is a good study on the plasma free test for pheo
this is the entire abstract:
Plasma-free metanephrine and free normetanephrine measurement for the diagnosis of pheochromocytoma in dogs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23311717

this just the conclusion
CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE:

Plasma fNMN concentration has excellent sensitivity and specificity for the diagnosis of pheochromocytoma in dogs, whereas fMN concentration has moderate sensitivity and excellent specificity. Measurement of plasma-free metanephrines provides an effective, noninvasive, means of identifying dogs with pheochromocytoma.

[Trixie]

Sharlene....so glad Marianne found the benign word there! Now you can take a deep breath.
From what I read about this it certainly doesn't seem like Molly fits the mold for a pheo...or even from a nodule that is functioning. It says if its functioning the dogs are weak, listless, not hungry, lose weight and are very thirsty,....that doesn't sound like Molly! The Pheo symptoms really don't sound like Molly either--rapid heartbeat, high blood pressure, pacing, panting..you would certainly have noticed any of these symptoms.
I know how difficult it is when they can't figure out what's going on with Molly...maybe the U Tenn tests will finally settle the question? I bet anything this little nodule is benign!
The rest of the ultrasound all sounds pretty good, right?

Barbara

[molly muffin]

I thought it seemed like a pretty decent ultrasound for other areas, based on her being 11 years old now.

Nope, not panting, pacing, weight loss.

It does make me wonder about the sex hormones more now though. I am loath to do a biopsy of the liver as that can be invasive and bleed. I don't want that to occur.

Molly hasn't gone under anesthesia since she was spayed at a year old. That might freak me. LOL

I really want to thank all of you. I can do fairly good evaluations on any dog other than my own. ROFL.

Leslie, does it count as 6 eyes if I have my glasses on?????!!! We might need that extra set the way I'm going lately.

lol
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh we are in GOOD shape then 'cause we have EIGHT eyes! :p

[beaglemom3]

I hope you get to the bottom of it Sharlene, I am sure it is making you anxious not knowing and hoping for the best possible outcome...benign

[molly muffin]

It does have it's moments Vicki.

Leslie, 8 works, Mariannes two and all the others on here help a lot. :) :) Can you imagine if I hadn't posted the jpegs!!!!!!! I'd be a wreck for sure.

Sharlene

[Trish]

Hey Sharlene, good morning!! Add my 4-eyes to the mix :D Just read through the report properly. Had to squint a little but could read it!! Very throrough, I am impressed :)

[labblab]

It does make me wonder about the sex hormones more now though.
Sharlene, I know you are anxiously awaiting the results of the UTK testing. In advance of that, though, here's a couple thoughts for you to consider. I don't say what I'm about to say to try to confuse things further, but just so you'll be really prepared to discuss the results with the IMS.

This is the thing...Our experience here (and "seconded" by what your IMS has already said) is that I don't think we've ever had a dog with elevated cortisol that didn't also register elevations in at least some of the other adrenal hormones as well. And the big question is, so what does that mean, and how does it really matter????? If Molly had not already exhibited elevated cortisol on the previous ACTH, then I'd be more anxiously awaiting this UTK panel because normal cortisol but elevated intermediates could herald a discussion of "Atypical" symptomology/treatment. But if Molly again exhibits elevated cortisol, I'm really not sure what significance any other elevations really have. Obviously, that's what you'll have the IMS to tell you ;). And I'll be really interested in her take on whatever the results turn out to be. But I do think that, under the circumstances of Molly's previous ACTH, it would be more surprising if she doesn't have other elevations than if she does. And exactly how that might alter a treatment decision, I do not know. It seems to me that the elevated cortisol (if it is still the case) remains the front-and-center-stage issue in terms of clinical control.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

I don't know Marianne. I mentioned the study that shows almost all dogs seem to exhibit high estriadol that Lori posted. She said that you have to have 2 or more elevated now for them to look at atypical.

I fully expect her cortisol to be high, it was last time, not sure why it wouldn't be this time. The liver is larger, the adrenals are larger.

I don't know what it is that she is looking for either .

I guess the big mystery is that she shows no symptoms of cushings and that the IMS said while one might come back negative on an LDDS, if it is a false negative, that you wouldn't expect all of them to. (although she mentions it as a possibility on the report). I think they might be puzzled too.

I haven't ever pursued treatment because of the lack of symptoms. I don't know if I should have, if I should now, or what. I guess I hope that the UTenn report will round out what is going on inside of molly's body. Maybe it is a matter of which hormones are high and how high. I really just don't know.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

I haven't ever pursued treatment because of the lack of symptoms. I don't know if I should have, if I should now, or what. I guess I hope that the UTenn report will round out what is going on inside of molly's body. Maybe it is a matter of which hormones are high and how high. I really just don't know.

Hey, Sweetie, I don't for one moment question the decisions you've made thus far. There is no doubt but that Molly has been a most unusual girl, and there have been so many unanswered questions all along the way. Like everybody else, I have never been able to make sense of the positive ACTH and the negative LDDS tests. They are in such direct contradiction of one another since a positive ACTH is supposed to have a decent degree of reliability, just as should be the case with a negative LDDS. :confused:

I just know there is so much debate about the significance of elevated intermediates, though. And so I worry about the picture getting muddied even further. If the cortisol remains elevated, I'd expect for other intermediates to be elevated, as well, since obviously the adrenal glands are being overstimulated. But what is the cause? That seems to be the million dollar question!

[molly muffin]

Oh Marianne, I don't think you are questioning what I've done so far, but I certainly am. It's hard trying to know the best thing to do when molly isn't a text book case. :( I have absolutely no doubt that no matter what UTenn shows, that the waters will indeed be much muddier.

Molly isn't moving around much on her foot. She isn't limping but she is laying for the most part. I know it hurts her Somewhere, but I can't find anything at all wrong. I can move the foot and the toes and she doesn't flinch away ,but she also eventually will move her paw out of my hand. I looked between the pads and can't see anything there either.

I think she might need an anti-inflammatory and I am so leery of that. I wonder if what we used on her back would help her foot. That didn't seem to bother her.

I guess I'll have to give her regular vet a call tomorrow and see if I can get any feed back.

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trixie]

Hi Sharlene,
I'm the last one that can shed any light on all the variables of these tests but I think you've made very wise decisions for Molly and it can't be easy to figure it all out and especially since she's had no Cushings symptoms. Hopefully the next piece of the puzzle coming from UTenn will possibly hold the key one way or the other.

I think you were smart not to treat. I would imagine without the symptoms as a barometer treating would be a difficult guessing game that could get dangerous.
In the meantime, this paw/leg issue is still going on..poor Molly. :( When we took Trixie to the vet with her leg she mentioned a "not too hot" compress...may be worth a try for the little girl. Hope it gets better soon. :p

Barbara

[Iraklis]

The IMS said she would not do an MRI at this time (that might change who knows) as there is no guarantee that you spend $2000. and that it will show anything. (we were talking at the time about a pituitary tumor)



2000$ for an MRI? :eek::eek:

It costs 350 euros (~500$) here...and that's the only positive thing i can think of regarding veterinary practice here...
Maybe you should come for holidays and squeeze in an MRI between swimming :)

[Renee]

Iraklis, the cost is why most people don't do it. Up here (in Alaska) an MRI is about $2,000 as well. We opted for a CT scan for Tobey, and that alone was $1200. So, really, an MRI is not something most people can do.

[Budsters Mom]

An MRI cost $3500 where I am! Too expensive for most of us.....:o

[molly muffin]

The cost in North America is usually at least $2000. and up, which is cost prohibitive for almost everyone. That is why you don't often see us suggest an MRI here on the forum to people. It is too expensive and just makes people feel horrible that they can't afford it for their furbabies. If it was $500. here more people would do it. Very sad really, but that is the reality.
An ultrasound with a high res machine will run around $500. and even that isn't an option for everyone.

Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

I have never had to get Fynn an MRI so not sure, but CT is around $1K :eek:

Sharlene, you up in the middle of the night... sorry I was not here to check you were OK, hope you have gone back to the land of nod! x

[molly muffin]

Not a good sleep night. My sleep pattern has been off for over a week now. This is going to be a long work day!!! I'm okay, just slept early and then was woken up and work stuff popped into my head. Molly and hubster are sound asleep both snoring upstairs.
I think to get a CT here would have to go to University of Guelph, not sure what the cost would be.
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Tina often pops in about now, the UK girls will be at work so don't see them at this time! You can be an honoury member of the night crew, as long as you do not make a habit of it and have disrupted sleep patterns!!!

[labblab]

I'm here, I'm here! I'm the early bird U.S. eastern time zone! :) :)

[addy]

Hi Sharlene, sorry you are having a bad sleep week and I hope that improves. Overall, Molly's test results are not so bad. I do agree with Marianne that if Molly's cortisol is elevated we will expect to see to some of her intermediate hormones elevated.

I can tell you in the beginning, melatonin and lignans did normalize Zoe's estradiol. Of course, in her case, her cortisol was so high, I did not see any clear benefit from it but since her symptons were so mild and her blood work not that bad, I tried it first and treated her colitis instead.

Hugs

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Sorry you are not sleeping, I certainly know that feeling. What about laser therapy for Molly's foot. It just rejuvenates the cells and makes them work to heal anything so that may help her, just can't think of anything else. Hope you are both doing better with all this soon. It is a lot to deal with this plus work a
job. Blessings
Patti

[mcdavis]

I'm sorry that I can't help with the test results - will leave that to the experts
but {{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}} from Henry and I (and take care of yourself)

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sharlene,

I am sorry, too, that you are having a rough time sleeping this week and I hope you are able to get some restful sleep real soon.

Some things that caught my attention on Molly's US are with the kidneys/urinary system. I see that with both US there were decreases in corticomedullary definition, which I believe, is like the filtration system for the kidneys.

I also see that she has a very small stone (renolith .18cm) in her right kidney, I imagine the IMS thinks Molly will pass this?

Is the irregular mucosa along with the mineral deposits (calculi) seen in the urinary tract?

I am wondering what is meant by the "pancreas is mildly mottled?" Does this suggest pancreatitis at some time?

I seen that Molly's BP was mildly high, was this because of "white coat syndrome" or has Molly's BP been elevated before?

Molly's UPC was pretty darn good (.8) and I am wondering if the mild issues she has with her kidneys can be attributed to the .8 UPC and also, maybe the culprit for the mildly high BP?

Sorry I have more questions than answers, and I am sending huge loving hugs to you both.




Ultrasound comparions I'm posting the results from 2012 first followed by the 2014 results.


July 15, 2012


left kidney 4.86cm hyperechoic speckling in the cortex and mild decrease in corticomedullary definition


mucosa mildly hperechoic and irregular and two small calculi presnet .18cm and .24 cm


right kidney similar to left kidney 4.44 cm length

small non-obstructive calculi present .28cm


April 20, 2014


left kidney measures 5.22cm mild loss of corticomedullary definitions, cortical speckling no obstructive mineralizations and renoliths .16cm by .39cm

right kidney measures 4.70cm and is similar in appearance to the left, renolith .18cm

pancreas is mildly mottled

blood pressure measurement demonstrated mild hypertension.

urinalysis demonstrated concentrated urine and proteinuria

Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trixie]

Oh Sharlene..sorry you had a bad night and not enough sleep. At least it's the weekend and hopefully you can catch up on some rest. A case of the worries can really screw up the night.
Hoping tonight is a better one.

Barbara

[beaglemom3]

Hi Sharlene I am sorry to hear your not sleeping well, I hope tonight you can get a full nights sleep and feel rested in the morning.

[molly muffin]

Ugh, so of course today was a bad day at work. Of all the days eh. :) I took a 30 minute power nap today that helped a tiny bit.

My vet called me today to talk about the ultrasound and upc results. She mentioned that there was a upc done in January and molly's ratio at that time was UPC .049, so the highest possible within normal range. She thinks that is our main concern right now, in her opinion as it can be a silent problem that can get worse and the next UPC mid/end of may will help us know about that.
I think she has concerns about the kidney leaking protein.

She thought as far as the adrenal tumor goes that molly would have tested positive on the LDDS if it was a functional adrenal tumor. She also mentioned that based on location and if smooth, etc, they can often tell if they think it is malignant or benign. She is inclined to go with benign. She knew nothing about the atypical cushing testing. She also hadn't heard about the new radiation treatment that UDavis is doing (but she got very excited about it) and didn't know about about the pituitary surgery that Dr. Bruyette has done. Was a bit excited about that too and said I was a wealth of information. LOL

I spoke with her about molly's leg issue too and I'll just copy what I wrote on Trixie's thread:

I spoke to my vet today about Molly's leg and she said, that sounds like a sprain, when I explained that it was one day, then later she is fine and then it comes back. She said any wrong movement, causes it to react the same as the original sprain, then they over compensate on one leg and the other one acts up because of the over compensation. Humans do this too, especially with knees and legs. She said 3 days of solid restriction as much as possible, no running, no jumping and no long walks. Compresses can help to, just like for a people sprain.

So she thinks maybe a sprain if there is nothing in the pad and no toe nail problem. If it doesn't clear up, i'll take molly in for her to have a peek at.

I hope I can sleep tonight. Really it isn't anything to be too worried about, a combination of work/molly, and bad sleeping pattern lately, where I fall asleep while reading on the couch and then when I wake up and it's time for bed, I'm wide awake. That throws me way out of kelter and it has happened several times. Plus you know, that is when the mind kicks into full steam ahead.

Well, I've ordered a pizza as I told hubs, cooking is not on my agenda tonight. :) It wasn't on his either, so pizza it is and chicken wings.

Oh and Lori, I wonder if that last episode of diarrhea and tummy upset, wasn't a mild pancreatic attack.

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

We are going to have to track Kim down. She is wonderful at lullabies.

I hope you are finally able to get a good nights rest tonight. I'd sing you a lullaby, but that more than likely would give you nightmares. :D

You are an awesome mommy and you'll get Molly sorted out. You always do. Xxxxxx

[molly muffin]

I hope you are finally able to get a good nights rest tonight. I'd sing you a lullaby, but that more than likely would give you nightmares. :D



LOL Kathy, thanks for the giggles. Just what I needed. Better than a lullaby even!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Hey, sorry got here late today so probably missed you all! Hope you are tucked up in bed without falling asleep on the couch! Fingers crossed you have a good night Sharlene :)

Reassuring what you vet said, yes I would have thought it would have a +ve LDDS test with functional. Pheo usually doesn't, but then Kim's Annie was false positive from memory. Flynn negative x2.

That sounds like a good long conversation, two way street too it sounds like you were giving her new information too!

So we are back on the waiting wagon, atypicals and next UPC in mid-May. Oh we are so good at waiting aren't we.... NOT?!?! :D x

[molly muffin]

Patience. Pfffft

Yep her main concern is the kidneys and protein leakage. Even if mild now. She straight out said that we could recheck the size of the adrenal tumor in a few months but she had concerns for now about the UPC and kidneys.
She does concentrate her urine really well so that is good I think. It's not too high or low. So that is good.
Now I just need to figure a way to put work in the drawer. :(
Heading to bed soon
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

I am glad to hear your vet thinks the adrenal tumor is benign, that's is reassuring. I do not know what UPC is, but I will keep Molly in my prayers that she does not have protein leakage.

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I feel so bad that you are stressed and not resting like you should. I don't know to much about protein leakage, but I know you will get it straightened out. I hope you have a stress free weekend and rest yourself. Working full time and having to deal with all of Molly's stuff has to be draining. I know nothing seems to help stop the worrying, it seems to come with the disease. You are a tough cookie, and you always strive to give Molly the best. You are always an inspiration to me when I am feeling nervous about Tipper, so it is hard knowing all you are going thru. I pray for each and every one of these babies every nite. Tipper sits right beside me, and I always say she is doing her prayers with me. I pray that there can be some resolve to the issues you are facing. God Bless you and Molly
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

Alright young lady, I see you starting some of the same horrid habits I have allowed to ruin my health. You STOP that right now! If you want to read, sit in your chair and enjoy until you start to get sleepy then march yourself to the bed and snuggle in. Lay off caffeine and sugars in the late afternoons, evenings and nights. If you crave a sweet, fix yourself a cup of hot tea with milk and honey or eat some green grapes or a pear. Get more exercise. Spend at least 15 minutes outside every day alone - no Molly, no phone, no iPad, no company - just you and Mother Nature. And stop worrying! I have (WATCH FOR LIGHTNING! :p) so I know you can. Ok, your four-eyed mother is going to leave it at that...for now. :D

[Woodydog]

Goodness I don't post for a few days and all hell is breaking loose with Molly and Flynn.

A sprain sounds logical for Molly's paw I hope she is feeling better
It is hard to switch off when you have so much running through your head but you do need to try. When things got too much with Woody I would go a walk on my own taking in the fresh air and scenery at least for that little while I could focus on other things. I hope you get your sleeping sorted out :)

[Harley PoMMom]

Just doing some more research on UPC ratio tests and found that
The urine protein:creatinine ratio varies by up to 30% above or below baseline as a matter of course. A significant change in the ratio caused by disease progression (up) or response to therapy (down) must be greater than 30%. This is due to the flunctuating levels of creatinine, I believe Trish has mentioned this before, right?

Here's a link to the article that I quoted from: Glomerulonephritis (http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?S=0&C=0&A=1352)

Link to another interesting article: http://www.2ndchance.info/atopica-urineparameteres.pdf


Musing here, with Molly's .8 UPC result I don't think I would be really worried unless it trends upward a lot. I wonder what Molly's IMS would say regarding that 30% fluctuations in the UPC?

[molly muffin]

I think it is a combination concern of the UPC along with the kidney "mild loss of corticomedullary definitions, cortical speckling" that makes the vet concerned with a progressive pattern developing. They don't want to see that and of course are not planning on treating currently but more of lets keep an eye on that as it is a silent progressive disease.

So, my hubby took his vehicle in for some maintenance today and then called and said come get me, lets go out to lunch. So, since I'd just gotten out of the shower and was dressed, (always a plus when leaving the house) i went to get him, we had lunch and then went to look at some newer vehicles. (he's thinking of replacing his and my winter with just one winter one) So two possibilities, one that I liked more than him and one that he liked more than me. We didn't get either, but now I have my homework assignment. :) So I need to find something that will combine features that we both like and take it from there. :)

Tonight he is taking me out to dinner (after his nap), so this has been a very relaxing day for us. I slept great last night and really long. I'm sorry Leslie I did fall asleep on the couch, but woke up, went straight upstairs to bed and right back to sleep, then still sleeping this morning when hubs was up and ready to leave to go to the mechanic. I wasn't moving out of that bed for anything. LOL Molly didn't get up either, so it was a plus. (no huffing and puffing for me to get out of bed and take her for a walk) Foot was fine today.

So funny Leslie, I don't think anyone has called me "young lady" since my mom passed away. I had to giggle over it. :) :) Thank you. I'll try to behave myself.

hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[beaglemom3]

So glad to hear you had a long and good night sleep! I hope it continues.
and good to hear Molly's foot was good today :)
Have a wonderful dinner out with your hubby!

[Budsters Mom]

Oh, that's what it took. I had to threaten to sing to you, before you could get get a good night's rest. So glad my threat had you shaking in your boots! Lol :D:D:D

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Sharlene that it wonderful that you slept well!!!

Good luck with the new vehicle search, in Feb. I bought a 2014 dodge ram crew cab and love it, I just love trucks!!

[mcdavis]

So pleased the Molly's foot was OK today and hope you had a wonderful dinner this evening.

OH lets me make all of the car buying decisions after he sent me out to get a practical winter car for my third Canadian winter and I came home with an Audi TT roadster :D :D

[Trish]

Hey Sharlene

Hope you and hubs are still out enjoying a tasty meal! You have had quite a day, sounds lovely! I am such a bad car shopper, the must haves for me were a central console for Flynn to stand on. The car guys thought I was mad having that at a non-negotiable :D My car which I bought in 2010 had a couple of things I have never had before, an excellent backing camera and heated seats... I don't know how I lived without them before! They were optional extras but I am glad I shelled out the extra $$ for them both. Wow that is a nice looking truck Lori, just googled it!

LOL at Leslie, now that is a voice I would not mess with :D:eek::D

[Squirt's Mom]

:p I think hearing "young lady" growing up was worse than when they called my full name out! :p

I am so glad to hear that you got some good rest and that Mollys' foot seems better!

[goldengirl88]

I agree Leslie, Young Lady meant you were in some kind of trouble.

[molly muffin]

Oh that is funny, a practical winter car turned into the Audi TT roadster!! hahaha

I havve car that I bought last year and I love it. Yep, it has the heated seats too and wow, not sure how I survived Canada for so long with a cold tush!

We have two jeeps currently that we use in the winters mainly. Hubs is a toy, in that he put lift kits on it and steel bumpers and a wench. I use to joke that he just Hoped I'd go intoa ditch so he could come rescue me. hahaha Mine is a grand cherokee, which I've had a grand cherokee since they came out in 1993 in one form or another. Except for the time when I had a mustang and hubs had a firebird. That was a crazy winter!
Now we are thinking that we'll get rid of the two jeeps and get one to replace the two. I'll drive it mainly in the winters, since hubs doesn't mind driving the car in the winter and we'll be set and not need any more vehicles for a long time to come. I love vehicle shopping, some times. LOL

Oh nice Lori! Those Dodge Ram Crew cabs are huge! I was looking at one yesterday since jeep/dodge is the same place. Of course I also kept drifting over to look at a some rather sleek vipers, which is totally impractical and I don't need. hehehehee

The restaurant we went to last night, is down in Port Credit, one of my favorite places to be for anything. Really good food and fun atmospher. The manager came over to say hello, as my sister in california had established an email back and forth with him over the holidays. (she sent us a gift certificate to this place for xmas and with everything going on we hadn't had a chance to use it yet). We'll definitely go back there.

Molly's foot remains okay so far and I am hoping whatever it was, sprain pawed or something else is better now.

I'm not sure if today what we'll be doing this afternoon. Last night was not a good sleep night again. I think it is more work issues than Molly issues at the moment that is keeping me up.

I'm thinking of putting molly strictly back onto her SO dog food for the crystals, dry and wet and see if the UPC responds well to that. She didn't have these issues previously when I had her solely on that, but she went off the food for awhile and wouldn't eat it and I was supplementing it with chicken and other stuff, pasta, green beans, etc, so now I think I'll try her just on that till the test in mid may and see if that UPC comes down and if this is food related at all.

My sister said she thinks my nephews dog has cancer because they found a bump (his wife is an RN) and she seems to be failing. She is a golden retreiver, 11 years old. I told my sister to look into it being a lipoma before writing her off. Do a fine needle aspirate and have blood work done. My family has dogs but for some reason, they only seem to do the bare minimum when it comes to health issues with them. Nothing like me and molly.

Thanks everyone, have a great day.
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Sounds lime you had a good old time car shopping. The cost of new cars is just astronomical now. I hope you get something that you like to drive if you are going to keep it for a while. Good to hear Molly's foot is not acting up. Your work is going to give you grey hair!! Thank God for the weekend so you can unwind. I miss the corporate world sometimes, but it was very draining. The doggies just did their second walk and the sun is out and really nice. Have a good Sunday. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

we have a Prius IV and I love those heated seats in the winter! Warms you up much quicker than the car heater.

[molly muffin]

I am about being a team player whatever is going on and I don't need someone trying to be a hero and messing things up by interfering when a team is working on an issue. I had to write an incident report on Friday for that very reason. It's my own fault in a way for not taking the management position when offered so I could just handle these things.
I miss the days of being home not worrying about working and happy bliss. Lol
I can't do that now as it is all about Molly's needs and those needs are speedy. So. No win. No work no money. Work money but a lot of stress too.
I'll survive it just has to be dealt with.

Oh new cars are very expensive. I like low miles used to get a better deal.
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I know what you mean, we had people like that at work too, and they are all about themselves. Hoping Molly is starting of the week well. Did you find a car yet? I am getting nervous about these storms coming, so I have to get something safe to give Tipper. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

Hi Sharlene,
I agree, stress stinks!! Worry stinks too! Hate those nights where you wake up and can't shake the worrisome thoughts and stress related angst. :(

Hoping your work day was better today and whatever was going on there has settled down.
How's Molly doing today? She's not limping anymore, right? I hope not!

Barbara

[Renee]

I love new cars! So exciting.

I have usually bought used in the past, but 2 years ago, I bought myself a brand new car, exactly what I wanted. I figured that if I was going to drive it for at least 10 years (or more!), I would get the exact one I wanted, and brand new. I still love it. And, it handles like a dream in the Alaskan winters.

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I hope a better day at work?? What's going on with the weather up there?? Tipper is on high alert!! There has to be a better way. Hope Molly's foot is still good. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

We're expecting rains starting overnight tonight and its a system that isn't going to move out quickly but stall over us from what they said, so lots of rain. I'm a bit worried, remember last year guys?!! All that water. (if you don't know or hadn't heard about last years toronto floods, pics are posted in the albums)
I'm wondering if I should just stay home or what in case we get floods again. I might do that, right now they are saying 23 - 35mm, but that could be more, it just depends. I'll check weather in the morning and decide.

Renee, what kind of vehicle did you end up getting for the Alaskan winters?

No, nothing yet. Getting a vehicle is a slow process for us. Mainly because we can only go look on Saturdays due to work and time constraints. And if you are going to put down that kind of money, then we're going to be picky. Yea, we keep ours a long time too, so it best be right. LOL Currently we sort of know what we want and there aren't any used low miles 2013-2014 available. So, patience grasshopper!

Work, *sigh* LOL Today was like being in the Antarctica, with the big freeze. Sort of like working with a teenager. Gads. Hormonal still ya think? :) No worries though, I will deal with it. :)

So, molly is doing okay, no limping ,but she is more careful with it sometimes, weird, will stretch and stick it out in front of her. (would that be a ligament, tendon issue?)

hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Renee]

Sharlene - I bought a Chevrolet Equinox. I don't live out in the country here, so I'm not battling serious snow storms that need a big truck, but we do get bad snow and icy weather for about 6 months out of the year. It handles the icy roads and snow very, very well.

I actually test drove a few vehicles, decided exactly what I wanted, then ordered the exact one with all the features and specs I wanted. When the car arrived, it had exactly 3 miles on it. It took a while to arrive, but it was worth waiting for the car I wanted. I am very, very patient and particular when making big purchases, so I never rush or settle. My last car, I had for 9 years before upgrading. I expect to get at least 10 out of this one.

[molly muffin]

My niece bought a chevrolet equinox down in LA. She Loves it!

hmmm..Maybe I'll take a look at those if it handles ice and snow well.

Thanks!
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

We're expecting rains starting overnight tonight and its a system that isn't going to move out quickly but stall over us from what they said, so lots of rain. I'm a bit worried, remember last year guys?!! All that water. (if you don't know or hadn't heard about last years toronto floods, pics are posted in the albums)
I'm wondering if I should just stay home or what in case we get floods again. I might do that, right now they are saying 23 - 35mm, but that could be more, it just depends. I'll check weather in the morning and decide.


Oh Sharlene, I do remember that awful storm and the toronto floods :eek::eek: Do be safe and let us know how things are going, ok?

Hugs, Lori

[mcdavis]

Good to hear that Molly is doing ok, although I'm guessing that the rain won't be welcomed by her either.
Sorry to hear that work isn't great at the moment - sounds like tomorrow would be a good day to stay home and let things defrost!
Stay safe - sounds like you may need a submarine instead of a car;)

[molly muffin]

Maybe I get something with a submarine option package. :) :)

Molly will hate all the rain, looks like the greatest amount should be in the morning. I need to keep connection with internet through at least 3pm tomorrow. You never know what rain and storms will do with the power situation. I better charge things tonight, just in case.

Molly started, of course, favoring her foot while on her last walk. Not limping exactly but certainly favoring. You can tell by the gait. I just can't find anything Wrong with it! So frustrating.

grrr
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I know you must be so frustrated with Molly's foot. Trying to figure out all the things going on with our babies can be a daunting task to say the least. I am still working on Tipper's tremors. It is dark and pouring down rain. Tipper was up and on the alert almost all nite. I must get something from the vet, although I do understand him being hesitant as she is allergic to everything, and certainly does not need her breathing depressed as sedatives do. There has to be a better
way. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Sharlene, hope you and Molly are safe and dry and both feeling well!

[molly muffin]

We're good here. Lots of water but the drains seem to be handling it okay. I've seen the city out checking for backup already so that is good.
Molly doesn't seem to care at all. It's just raining, no thunder or lightening so she of course is having a nice little snooze in the dining room, stretched out and snoring for all she is worth. Pretty deep sleep, she didn't even acknowledge that the post came. LOL

I did go ahead and elect to work from home, just in case today. I'll check the basement in a bit to make sure nothing is coming in. Hubs said that if it does, just move stuff out and he'll wet vac it when he gets home.

hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Hi Sharlene:
It is a torrential down pour and really bad wind. Coming from the vets lots of pounding on the roads. Tipper is beside me on the bed and resting. She was very unsettled on the way to the vets in this. He only saw her level of being terrified at about 40%. He is not wanting to give Tipper Valium. I knows where heis coming from. He is scared if something happens to her from this I will blame him. She is so allergic, and let's face it I know these drugs are not good for dogs. I may have to investigate L Tryptophan or Valerian. That is about all I have not tried. I will discuss this with the IMS tomorrow too. Hope your basement holds out, that is a pain I am sure you can do without is moving things. Blessings
Patti

[mcdavis]

Oh no - I hope the basement stays dry. We used to be on the river and our basement flooded every time there was heavy rain, and they reckoned it was caused by the magnolia tree roots, so they chopped them and when the next rainstorm happened I went to the basement and the apple store (which always flooded first) was totally dry. Elated I turned round to discover one of the other rooms had flooded instead :eek:
It's good that the rain isn't bothering Molly. I hope these dreadful storms end soon.

[beaglemom3]

Glad you are all ok! and happy to hear your drains are working well :)

[Woodydog]

Hope your still dry and Molly is doing well.

[goldengirl88]

Should we build an ark?? I have all the animals!!

[molly muffin]

Hehehe I Know you do Patti!

Well, we did get water in the basement but not bad and I was able to mop it up. I just cannot figure where it is coming in at.

No way do I want to finish off the basement as long as I don't know and can't fix it. We've had the side around the house dug out and gravel laid, so should have good drainage. I don't know.

Molly is fine, rain stopped for today. We had our walk. She had her dinner and now I'll be starting to cook our dinner. Hubs has to get packed as he is out of town for the next few days.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Next heavy rain, you need to stand inside the basement and see where the flow is coming from. I would think you could see the area that first gets wet and correspond that to outside where a drain may be needed. A French Drain system is fairly easy to do yourself and could help if you can find where the water builds up.

I hope Molly's toe is better!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

I hope you guys are ready for the next chapter in the molly saga, because U of Tenn results are in and Molly continues to Baffle. Here goes:

ACTH (2 draws - this is due to the agent used by the vet) June 2012
Cor1 - Cortisol (base) 172 (30 - 300) 6.23 ug
Cor 21 - Cortisol (ACTH) - 1 hour 924 33.49 ug
Cor 22 - Cortisol (ACTH) - 2 hour 1014 36.75 ug


ACTH april 2014
Pre 29.5nmol range 2.1 - 58.8 1.06ug
1hr 283.1nmol range 65.0 - 174.6 10.26ug
2hr 345.6nmol range 65.0 - 174.6 12.52ug

This has actually decreased

Pre levels that are off:

Estradiol 103.4 baseline 30.8 - 69.9
Aldosterone <11.0 11-139.9pg/ml (normal range baseline 72, post 23 (she is close on the post at 23.7)

Estradiol being raised isn't abnormal usually as Lori mentioned was found in recent study.

The POST number that are out of range are as follows:

Androstenedione base .41 (range .05 - .57) 1hr 4.54 2hr 5.97 (range .27 - 3.97) HIGH
Estradiol base 103.4 (range 30.8 - 69.9) 1hr 105.2 2hr 129.1 (range 27.9 - 89.2) HIGH
Progesterone base .29 (range .03 - .49) 1hr 3.83 2hr 3.94 (range .10 - 1.50) HIGH
17 OH Progesterone base .38 (range .08 - .77) 1hr >25. 2hr >25. (range .40 - 1.62)
Aldosterone pg base <11. (range 11 - 139.9 1 hr 23.7 2hr 57.4 (range 72.9 - 398.5)



Comments: Baseline values are within reference range except for moderate estradiol
elevation. On the contrary, most of the post ACTH values (either after 1 or 2 hours) are
significantly elevated except for aldosterone that is lower than the reference range. Although
estradiol may contribute to clinical signs, it is not a good indicator for adrenal activity, since estradiol may be secreted
also by peripheral tissues (adipose, skin). In this case the source is not known.
Occasionally aldosterone concentration may be related to Na/K/water balnce.

page 3 of my upload lists treatment options.

My IMS said a couple things. Her ACTH cortisol levels have actually gone down since the previous
ACTH.

With the high other levels of hormones, there is concern that this Might be what is causing
the liver and adrenals to be enlarged. That what we want at the moment is to see if
we can get her liver enzymes to come down and have an actual decrease in the enlargement.

Her suggestion and what we discussed is to start with melatonin and lignans and give it 4 months
with a retest on the liver enzymes (i think I'd like before and after) and see if there
is any effect. She doesn't want to go to lysodren, even the maintenance dose Yet, but if there is
no reaction in the time suggested by Tennessee, then that could be on the plate at a very small dose.
Vetroyl, she feels would not be a good option, because it causes the adrenals usually to enlarge and we don't want
that with the tumor there.

Molly continues to be a puzzle, by not displaying signs of cushings other than on ultrasound, so no clinical signs
her cortisol lowering on it's own, even as a tumor shows up.

I have a meeting to discuss with her over phone on Friday, so I have till them to come up with what I want to do.
Get your input hats on peeps.

One of my questions will be, is the cortisol, hormones embalance, feeding the adrenal glands possibly feeding the tumor.
Could these have led to the creation of the tumor itself.

If we try this melatonin and lignans and they don't work we can also go to an aspiration of the liver or biopsy option, which my husband does
not want to do.


It was funny, the IMS, said, I want to email this to you, give you time to review and study and then discuss.
I understand that I am talking with someone who has more knowledge of these issues than most people.
I just laughed. I mean what can you say, but I thought it was nice that she recognized that and didn't
try to BS me about anything and just say, lets do this or that.

So, that is where we stand right now.

[Renee]

I think the IMS showed a lot of respect for you. I would take that as quite a complement.

I wish I had some insight. Molly is just amazing!

[molly muffin]

Renee, I definitely take it as a complement and it makes it much easier to exchange opinions and have frank discussions. My other IMS though was also very good with discussing options and opinions, but this one seems to go the extra mile, with calls, emails, etc and just being open and honest in her opinions. If she doesn't know, she says so, and then says, what she thinks and ask the same back from me. Her first words today was how is molly and do you have a minute to talk. Then followed up conversation with I want to send this to you, give you time to read and see what you think, and then can we talk tomorrow and I begged off till Friday, since my thursday is swamped at work. And she was like sure, call me.
I feel very lucky to have gotten her this time as my prior IMS was unavailable for the day I wanted. Glad I took the chance.

hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Hi Sharlene, I am just now getting home late so will wait until tomorrow to look over Molly's results more carefully. But her huge decrease in cortisol per the repeat ACTH is indeed a surprise. One thing I am noting, though, is the low aldosterone. Per Dr. Oliver, that abnormality can be found in conjunction with a primary adrenal tumor that is affecting the adrenal cortex. So that finding actually may not be a big surprise since you already know about the presence of the tumor.


For hyperadrenocorticoid cases that also have low aldosterone levels, this pattern can be indicative of a primary adrenal tumor, and ultrasound is indicated to confirm a tumor's presence or absence.

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Hi Marianne. Do you have a link for that quote I can send on to the IMS. In treatment options they mention an ultrasound but not this specifically. I wonder though.... Wouldn't that mean the adrenal gland should be functional and active and how would that play into her cortisol dropping which I haven't heard or read of outside of treatment unless it was non cushings related. It is very bizarre. I was ready to say yea it must be secreting but then this and still no clinical symptoms. There is in fact both food and water in her bowls from today's meals.
Did I mention she is bizarre?! Lol
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Is there any chance a pheo could cause these results? The decrease in cortisol is puzzling in the face of the tumor - unless it is not a cortisol secreting tumor after all. Do pheo's ever cause such fluctuations in the level? I'm just navel gazing as I really don't have any real insight. Hopefully Marianne and Glynda will be able to help - our amazing gurus.

I think it is just wonderful that the IMS is so open to working with you and understands that you are special....just as we do. I have no doubt you will figure this out and make the very best decisions for sweet Molly Moo. You always have, ya know. ;)

I wish I could help more, but I am basically useless to you and Molly. :o BUT I can, and do, keep you both in my prayers and thoughts.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Trish]

Woweee now that is a tricky one to get your head around, so pleased you are onto it as I have never got these adrenal hormone results in any sort of order in my head! Interesting about how it might be related to the adrenal nodule. I think I might get these done for Flynn at some stage. I have read that hepatic nodules can be linked to adrenal hyperplasia. I will dig out the study on the weekend when I get a chance to sit at my own computer!

Sharlene, I really like your new IMS, I love how she is taking your own knowledge base into consideration. Yes, your old one was great too, lucky you have two good people you can connect with. x

[labblab]

Hi Sharlene, here's the link for Dr. Oliver's research summary -- I should have given that to you above:

https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/vmc/dls/endocrinology/Documents/Steroids_Profiles_in_the_Diagnosis_.pdf

Re: the fluctuating cortisol level -- the only thing I can think is that adrenal tumors can stimulate "bursts" of hormone secretion; the activity is not always constant nor consistent. So perhaps that is what has been going on with Molly, and there has been fluctuation in the timing and amount of release of the various adrenal hormones?

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I am sorry you have so many things on Molly's report to sort out. Do you feel the report was more positive than what you were expecting? Thank you for your help with my Tipper, you are always there when I need you. Hope Molly continues to do well in spite of all the baffling data. Blessings
Patti

[Trixie]

ugh, I'm useless and don't understand most of those numbers and what they mean. It seems to me that starting with the melatonin and lignans can't be harmful and maybe could be helpful, so that seems like a reasonable thing to do right now.
Wish I could be more helpful. :confused:

Barbara

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I don't know how much help I will be but when my head clears up from all this stress I will go over Molly's numbers. Take care of yourself, as I know all about the stress brought on by this. Blessings
Patti

[beaglemom3]

Sharlene, unfortunately I am clueless about those values so I can't really be much help, I am sorry, but I am praying for Molly and her health issues get resolved quickly!

[Trish]

Hey Sharlene!

Checking in to see how the chat went with the IMS and what Molly's plan is!! Hope you have some good news! x

[molly muffin]

Sorry, work was brutal and I didn't get a chance to call her today. I just sent her an email apologizing for that, sent her the quote from Dr. Oliver and link to the whole thing, told her I was willing to try the lignans and melatonin if she thought that might work on molly's liver, adrenal glands. Asked her how often we need to monitor for tumor growth.
Apologized again for being a bad patient and not getting back to her and asked her when would be convenient for us to have a chat.
I've been swamped at work so no time to pop in today.
I'll try to touch base on the forum later on tonight when I get a few moments to myself.

hugs all, I hope you are each doing well.
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Trish]

Bummer work is tooo busy, I have had a bit of a week like that as well. TGIF/S for me! Hope your evening gives you a chance to sit down, catch your breath and playtime with Miss Molly xxxx

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Has Molly just gotten ultra sounds, or have you had a CT scan done on her tumor. I am thinking of getting one on Tipper if I can swing it. They cannot be certain if it is invading anything with a Ultra Sound, so I need to know that for sure before making a decision. I am waiting on the IMS to answer me, as I know how busy she is. I don't know about you, but sometimes all this information makes me crazy! Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

No I haven't gotten one on Molly. They told me it wasn't invading anything including the vena cava at this point. They also didn't think that an MRI was needed.
Yes it does make you crazy. Absolutely!

Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[molly muffin]

So my independent pet store carries Fromm's, so she gave me 5 different samples to try with molly. I had to stop by to pick up the teddy treats, which you'd think the world has ended because I ran out and hadn't gone to get more. Hubs and Molly always share one when he comes home from work. They've been substituting others, but this morning he said, are you going to go pick up more of the teddy bear treats. LOL They are peanut butter, very thin and easy to break and molly sits on his lap and high fives him to get each treat. If he is too slow in breaking on off she bumps his hand with her nose to tell him to get a move on buster. hahahah I love to watch this daily ritual.

I'd love to have her on something better than the SO, just have to figure out how to get her to drink enough water without it and keep the crystals at bay. I think Glynda mentioned adding potassium to her food, can I just sprinkle that on the food and if so how much? I remember when she told me a few years ago, I couldn't just buy it, but I think they have it now on amazon.ca so I can order some.

It's cool and rainy here today. Molly is in nap mode for the most part with periods where she wakes up, plays hard, and then looks outside and goes back to curl up in the blanket. It's really kind of funny.


hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Tipper eats Fromm now too. I have to stock up when I go to Pittsburgh as the shipping on Amazon for this is unreal. I can tell you from experience with potassium, it is horrible tasting and I would have periodic blood work as too much in your system is not good. Molly is a real character. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Does Molly have struvite or oxalate stones? My Bear took potassium citrate for the prevention of formation of oxalate stones.

[molly muffin]

I thought at first it was struvite, but then I thought I saw something that said oxalate. I'll clarify for sure with her vet. I tried to look back on my thread as I remember this being recommended early in my journey here, then last year when I found out I could get the citrate. I must have been thinking they were oxalate stones. I was a bit concerned about calcium that seems to be in all dry dog foods. I am not going to change her off anything or even try the samples until after she has her next UPC in mid/end may. She will be on the SO dry and wet until that is over with as I don't want any food differences to change the results. I wouldn't know what was causing what.

Lori how do you give the potassium citrate? If I go down this path.

This is all thought process at the moment. She hasn't had any more crystals since I switched her to the SO but we know she has those small kidney stones now.
Her ph is 7.0 so that should be where we want her right?

So many things, man it sure can be confusing. From what I had red, high ph, contributes to struvite crystals, low ph contributes to oxalate crystals?

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
My citrate was in long tablets. They are not bad, but once had potassium that you dissolved in water, it was so bad it made me through up! If you email Fromm and ask for samples they will tell you they have none and send you a 10.00 certificate to buy some. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Hi Patti,
I have 5 different types of Fromm food samples, from the pet store. She is an independent and said she gets some in every week or two. There is a new one out that people are raving over she said and she can't keep it on the shelf. It is a hypoallergenic food from Fromm's. She said if she gets a sample of that in, then she'll save one back for me. I do love the independent stores, so much better than the chains. The service is exceptional. I stopped in the big PetSmart chain this morning since it was next door to another store I was in, to see if they happen to have my treat and they didn't. Then stopped by my independent and she had 2 different flavors. She'll usually try to order something in if you want to try something new and then she regularly stocks the stuff that she knows moves well that people want over the years. She also does cat rescue, so I spend at least a good 30 minutes or more playing with the cats that roam the store. (dogs are welcome to come in but she said she'd be in big trouble if she starting doing the dog rescue as she keeps any that don't get adopted right away, they NEVER end up back on the streets for any reason) I like her. Hubs says she's 3 sheets close to crazy, but he likes her too. ROFL! Anyway, I support my local independent mom and pop or just mom and kids, whatever the case may be stores. I'm sad we have no more independent book stores near us any more, just can find them now basically down town.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

pH of 7 is good, I don't think she would need potassium citrate at that level. You do not want to make her urine to alkaline as that could cause other problems. Best thing would be to keep her hydrated as you do. Avoid supplements with too much calcium, vit c also. I am pretty sure Molly does not eat too much oxalates, or salt that is more a human problem!

[Harley PoMMom]

Calcium and oxalate are what oxalate stones are made of. The potassium citrate attaches to the calcium as to hinder oxalate formation.

[Trish]

It also acts by alkalinising urine, if the urine is already at a good pH which Molly's is then there is little benefit. If you make urine too alkaline as other types of stones can form. I am not so up with the play on stones in dogs, but I know in humans we very rarely use this, sometimes in recurrent stone formers. We have found GI issues with it. Often in humans we look at calcium, citrate levels in blood and urine and other metabolic problems that can cause stones.

[Trixie]

Love the picture in my mind of Molly sitting with your husband doing the high five for her peanut butter teddy treats!! I'm sure it's even cuter in person than in my head!! :p

Barbara

[Squirt's Mom]

My Crys had struvite crystals, caused by infection, which I think is how most if not all struvite crystals / stones begin. She never developed stones but we battled the crystals off and on. If memory serves, we gave her a pretty hefty dose of Vit C and I know I used cranberry and a variety of citrus fruit to acidify the pH so the crystals had a harder time getting started. Again, if memory serves, diet is much more important when dealing with oxalate than struvite. Food can cause the formation of oxalate but not struvite...again if the memory is correct. In addition, cush pups are prone to the oxalate type. There are several other types of crystal / stones but those two seem to be most common. If you have never seen what these crystals look like, google them - some are pretty and some downright spooky! None look pleasant to have to pass, tho. :eek:

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
It is very dark and looks like we are going to have a storm again. I will be giving Tipper some of new storm meds soon. How is it up your way? I am taking it easy today as I will be leaving her at 4 am for my cardio appt.. It makes me worry to leave Tipper with the sitter. Hopefully I can get home quickly after I go the pet food store. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

No storms here. Sunshine and a bit of a cool northern wind.
We've been out and about today and molly has had 3 walks already as she is a bundle of energy today.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Tina]

Wow Sharlene, I have been getting caught up with everything that has been happening with Molly. I wish I had some smart input to offer about the UTK results or the ultrasound. :o I need to go back and re-read everything. I know you are worried about the UPC, but that value really isn't super bad. Of course we would be happier if it was below 0.5. Like you said, we will need to watch for a trend, and hopefully when she gets it checked again it will either be stable or lower. No offense, but we can do without your sweet girl in the protein pup band. :) ;)

I am so sorry you have been so busy at work, I completely understand what a pain in the butt that is. It just magnifies the stress you feel with everything else, and makes things so much more difficult to manage.

It sounds like Molly is feeling well and her leg issue is much better, I am glad to see that. She is such a cutie. Yesterday when I was at the vets there was a little girl there that looked a lot like Molly, she was a Lhasa mix named Pebbles. In came the lady's husband with Pebbles' brother, you guessed it, his name was Bam Bam. Lol. They were both very sweet. I thought of Molly right away, and also Zoe.

My Dakota suffered from urinary crystals, and actually ended up developing very small calcium oxalate stones which needed to be flushed out. She was started on some granules to prevent the crystals, and never had a problem after that. It was called Goldvet:

http://www.kalahealthvet.com/#Gold%20Potassium%20Citrate%20Granules

I used to order it from KV supply as it was cheaper there than at the vets, and they just happened to be located in Nebraska!

http://www.kvsupply.com/gold-vet-300-grams-11-ounces

I didn't remember that it was potassium citrate, and I know you have mentioned that. I would mix the granules with a little bit of water to make a gravy and mixed that with her food. It worked wonders, she never had crystals again, and we used it for years.

Thank you for your support and input on our thread, you're a doll Sharlene. Thanks for always being there for us.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[Trish]

Hi Sharlene
Just popping in to see if you managed to have the chat with IMS today, hope your working day was not too bad but know your so busy right now, stink!! Hope it lets up soon! xx

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Just wanted to see how work is if it has gotten any better?? Are all the issue with Molly's leg cleared up now? I wish I still had some citrate pill I would send you some to grind up for Molly. I picked up the wrong size Fromm's yesterday I was so tired. I will stop again when I go next week to the Dr. Tired and not feeling well today, my Lupus is affecting my joints terrible and my knees really hurt. Blessings
Patti

[mcdavis]

Sorry that I can't help with the test results but pleased to hear that little Miss Molly is generally doing well.

I'm a big fan of Fromm - I started Hamish on the reduced activity when he had the tummy upsets from the Blue and the vet wanted to give him Royal Canin GI, and he did really well with it. I'm currently using the puppy food for Henry and I'd be happy to continue however I'm thinking about trying Dr Tims to give him some variety.

[molly muffin]

Hi all,

I haven't spoken to the IMS yet, I received an email today that she would be available between wed and fri, as she is in clinic the other days. It's going to be tight trying to catch up with her as this is a busy week with me, due to hubs birthday and lots of activities going on.

I think molly's leg is doing okay, she has limped any more on it. Just have to watch her back legs as both are tricky with the knee on one side and the hip on the other. The hip issue is probably what caused the knee issue, she has always favored that hip since she was born.

She is doing okay though, except, today she is having diarrhea again, so back onto the floriflora she goes starting with her dinner. I am trying to do just the SO rotating with maturity, until after the May UPC, so as not to introduce any other elements into that result, but I swear every time I try to just do the SO/Mature, she ends up with gastro upset. It's a losing battle. I definitely want to move to Fromms once this is over with. I spoke with hubs about going to a raw food, but he is adamantly against it, I think because of impurities in the raw meat that might get into her. If I got his complete argument in a nutshell. I decided it wasn't worth the bother of an argument over it. He very seldom chips in on his opinion of what should or shouldn't be done for molly, so I took it that he had stronger views than I do on the issue.

So, now do I continue with trying to stick to the SO/Mature or do I introduce something else and hope it helps to clear up the gastro problem. If she has a gastro upset, as we all know from Jasper and Flynn and Zoe, the likely hood is that the UPC will be higher and I don't want that, I want a clear reflection on the kidneys. ARGGGHHH

Work. Well, it goes along. No one seems to have matured there, that's for sure! hahahaha I'm just going along doing my thing. I think I'm just going to let the chips fall where they may. Some times people hook their carts up to a losing horse and you really can't convince them that they should be hooked to a different one. That is sort of how I feel about some of these issues.

Patti, I am sorry that your Lupus is flaring up. It really can't take any stress at all. :( Hope you can get some rest and get that sorted out.

hugs all,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trixie]

Hi Sharlene,
Ugh...sorry to hear Molly has a bit of tummy upset. It is so difficult to make changes in anything when you are trying to figure out other matters. :confused:
I was about to finally start Trixie's fish oil caps when we made the change in Vetoryl dosage...so then I wanted to wait until that was all settled.
It's certainly hard to get to a point where everything is status quo and you can start something new or make some type of change in regimen. Glad that it seems the limping is all gone though and I hope this gastro upset will pass quickly. (no pun intended!) Is white rice on the menu tonight for Molly??
Barbara

[labblab]

Oh no, the diarrhea baton has been passed on to Molly!! :eek: (I'm still holding my breath about Peg but she just produced a small but acceptable evening poop for mommy -- good girl).

I agree, it is so darn frustrating to try to limit things to only one change at a time when there is so much that we want to be changing all at once.

Hang in there, OK? Sending "solid" vibes your way!!! ;)
Marianne

[Trish]

Arghhhh messy poops again, shite! Be catching up tonight, I better get going before I get fired!! xx

[Woodydog]

Oh not again Sharlene, do you know what caused it this time. It is hard to know what to do of change in these circumstances

[molly muffin]

Not a clue, she was fine this morning. We'll see how she does in the morning since I didn't give her any can SO tonight and dumped the majority back in for some wilderness dry food with just the probiotic on it.

If it's not a once off and continues into tomorrow then I'll look at chicken rice again.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Not bad poops again??? Oh I bet that little girlie hates when that happens. Were you giving her any of those samples? She has been doing so well. Hope morning brings better news on that front, or should I say back?? It would seem all of these babies have the ability to make us a wreck when we see a bad poop. I never thought I would be so happy over Tippers good poops. Lets see what is a poop expert called?? As many on here would qualify! Get better Miss Molly we can't have royalty making bad poops. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

I was thinking of something that Glynda said to vetstudent today about cortisol being beneficial too and them feeling better if they have arthritis and it doesn't cause them pain. I wonder how much pain molly would be in without her cortisol being higher.

We don't know the cause of the high cortisol, but we know since birth she has had a bad leg that doesn't slide correctly and probably does cause her pain. I wonder. Would her body naturally have produced higher cortisol levels to negate if she has had some pain most if not all of her life?

Could her producing the cortisol, then cause the liver and adrenals to enlarge and could that constant of a supply of cortisol, perhaps up and down over the years, also cause the nodule tumor on her adrenal gland. I think it was Flynn's IMS, but might have been Snuggs, saying not all nodules or enlargements are tumors. hmmm.. I'm just thinking out loud. See when I write it out like this it doesn't seem very probable.

They keep saying, she might not have cushings (or she might) and if not maybe it is the liver. I don't think they know though and are just guessing and throwing out ideas, sort of like I am here, but hopefully with much better knowledge to back them up. LOL :)

back to regular scheduled programming.
I'm working from home tomorrow but do need to go into the office for hubbys birthday pie. yep, he wants a blueberry pie, so our social committee is providing. We do this for each office staff member and then they pick what they want to have served. I'll be able to keep an eye on molly for most of the day though.

No, I didn't introduce the Fromm food yet, as I wanted her on the same food for the UPC so as to not mess up the results, so I didn't introduce anything other than the regular bland sort of diet. Tonight I switched it up a bit and if her poops are better, tonight or tomorrow morning, then I really am going to suspect that food. This is what I had suspected caused her gastro upset 2 other times and the vet didn't think it would cause that and her need antibiotics, but again, I'm unsure.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[molly muffin]

I should add that molly doesn't Feel bad at all. She is at this moment, barking at the french door, because she got her ice cube that she was acting under the door and can't get back to get it, so wants me to come do get it for her.

and I retrieved it for her and she is back to throwing and pouncing on it. Maybe she is part cat???!!!

Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

Hmmm I don't think that sounds very probable either.. the bit about the sore leg causing the high cortisol causing a tumour. But who knows with Molly! Another question for the IMS when you get to have the chat later in the week.

BUT looking for a good poop report tomorrow, I did laugh at Marianne noting Peg had passed the baton on to Molly... these pups can just stop this relay race right now!

Have a nice day at home tomorrow, does hubs work at the same company as you? Tell him I think his math skills are pretty sharp! xx

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
Yikes bad poops again?? Did you start her on the chicken and rice? I hope this is
is gone by tomorrow. I am wondering iif the stress from at the IMS? Does she normally react that way after going for a check up? Poor baby, I know how you feel as I think back to that time Tipper could not stop going and it just became liquid squirting out of her. Her poor little bum will be sore. Blessings
Patti

[Harley PoMMom]

Would her body naturally have produced higher cortisol levels to negate if she has had some pain most if not all of her life?



Any type of chronic illness can cause the adrenal glands to enlarge, this quote is from Dr Peterson's blog:
One would expect a sick dog to have a "stress" response, which would include increased secretion of pituitary ACTH leading to increased cortisol section. With chronic illness and continued stress, bilateral adrenocortical hyperplasia would be an expected finding as cortisol hypersecretion continues.


Q & A: Atypical Cushing's Disease in an 11-Month-Old Dog (http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/05/q-atypical-cushings-disease-in-11-month.html)

Hoping Molly's poops get firmer soon.

Hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

Molly's poop was better but not where it should be. I bit the bullet and gave her 1/2 of one of the Fromms grain free foods tonight with probiotic on it.

I don't think it was the IMS as that has been a few weeks back now and it would have occurred that day or the next. I'm leaning towards it being the SO food. I wanted her strictly on that so as to get a good accurate UPC but it seems that when I do that, I end up with a gastro upset. We'll see where she is after this food. *sigh* if it isn't one thing it's another.

I didn't end up working from home today, as I decided to go into the office for the whole day today and then work from home completely tomorrow and Friday. Molly was fine and there was someone here with her for most of the day until I returned.

Yes, my husband and I work for the same company. I don't work in his department though, so he isn't directly my supervisor or anything like that, we'd butt heads too much, but we are in the same office. It's very convoluted as any business is I suppose. I didn't start out working for his company, I worked for a different company that became an acquisition of the parent company that hubs works for. I do like popping into his office sometimes though. He has a picture of molly in a heart shaped miniature frame on his desk. It is so cute. On my wall, is a big picture in black and white of the one of molly and I looking at each other.

I don't like the sound of what Patti's IMS told her. I don't know what size Tippers tumor is, but I will be asking about that to my IMS when I speak to her. Today she was in emergency care so we didn't connect. That place is always busy with ER cases. I've heard them taking appointments from people driving for hours to get there. :(

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trixie]

Good report on Molly's behavior...barking for her ice cube is an excellent sign that she is feeling good and not too bothered by anything. You have to use this type of thing as a gauge to how they're doing since these dogs are not working much on their English. :D Whenever I am wondering if Trixie is okay I either ask her about a toy or mention the word "bag" (as in-tear one up!) and gauge her reaction...if she pops up with interest I know she's pretty much okay..and then I usually have to play or get the bag and make good on my offer.

Has Molly had any rice to firm up the poops? Usually does the trick for us. Hope on the morning walk things will be back to normal. ;)

Barbara

[beaglemom3]

I am glad Molly's poop is better I hope today it is perfect. She sounds like she is acting well which my vet told me pertaining to Snuggles, how they act are sometimes more important. Praying your little girl continues to improve.

[molly muffin]

I gave her the Fromm's grain free last night, because I kept suspecting the food and the filler grains in it, even though the vet told me a couple years ago that she didn't think so, and this morning, the most perfect small solid poop immaginable!!! YIPPEEE!

So there you have it. This morning I mixed the Fromm's with a bit of her SO, and this evening we'll try Just Fromm's but a different protein, because all I have is the sample packages right now, and I'll see if my independent pet store has any Fromm canned that I can use with molly for tomorrow morning.

I'm calling the vet to confirm what kind of stones she has had and crystals and we'll take it from there.

Right now I am happy. She had Tons of energy on this mornings walk too. She usually does but if she has a gastro upset, she tends to slow down off and on during the walk and then with the diarrhea for the last two days she go from spot to spot, straining to get all the liquid out. (sorry if that is TMI) today though, none of that, she was pulling me, had her solid poop and then was running down the sidewalk, pulling me along to the next tree to check her mail.

Maybe this isn't the long term answer, but then again, maybe it is, who knows.

hugs all
Sharlene and molly muffin

[goldengirl88]

Sharlene:
I am glad Molly's poop is better. Does she seem to be feeling right? Did you give her the chicken and rice? I know you are in the same boat as me that is why I lean heavily on you for guidance. My thoughts are exactlynthe same as yours. I will wait and see what the next three month ultra sound brings. My vet said he is jot even sure that this thing has changed because it could just be her error on where the probe was. Her tumor is larger than Molly's. It is supposedly 1.35 x
3.23 and was 2.92 I believe. My vet said she may just be scaring you in to this, and maybe not?? Does anyone on here know what the likelihood is of an adrenal tumor rupturing? I think the same as all of you have said,nwhich is the greater risk?? To me the greater risk at this point is surgery. If it begins to grow the rupture may be the greater risk. I did ask her that question, and also if she felt Tipper was in good enough shape to make it thru this operation. She conveniently left those answers out. I think Molly is a little younger, and does not have the health issues Tipper does. I am not sure they could even get a tube in her throat, without more damage to an already bad trachea?? Also I read that it is not only the number of operations the surgeon has done like this, it is how often and how recently they have done this. She also left out the question about how many of these operations the surgeon has done, and what were the consequences, how many dogs did not survive it? She never answered that. When people do not answer things, that is very telling to me. In would ask the surgeon all this anyway, but how do you know what they tell you is true?? They are building an addition on this hospital and have to fund it somehow. That is precisely why I do not like privately owned hospitals, and prefer teaching schools. This is just wearing on me. I am going to talk these things over with Glynda in the next few days, and get her take on all this. I feel for you Sharlene as this is not a good place to be between a rock and a hard place!! Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

She feels fine. No I didn't give her the chicken and rice since the Fromms seemed to do the trick. It is one of the grain free ones, this one is called Beef Frittata Veg, looking at the top 26 ingredients, not one of them is a grain. It made a big difference.

Yes that one is a bit bigger than molly's tumor. I wish I knew the answers for you Patti. :(

I do understand the trachea issue and the heart mummer is a concern too. It's all so bloody hard isn't it.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

Fromms is made near my home in the next town, Mequon. We go past the plant often. I hope it continues to help her. I remember reading about stones in Whole dog Journal but there was another site that talked about foods if you did not want to do prescription, I wonder if it was Dogaware?

Happy almost Friday!

[labblab]

Hey Sharlene, I'm so glad it looks as though Molly has decided to drop the diarrhea baton (and hopefully she won't be passing it on to anybody else ;))...:)

Since you are in the midst of deciding on a new food for her, though, I do want to mention one thing. Just like so many otherwise excellent grain-free products, I just looked at the detailed analysis for the Fromm's sample you gave her, and it is verging on being a high fat food. On their website, if you click on the detailed analysis (it is different from the guaranteed analysis) you will see the profile on a dry matter basis, and this particular food is almost 20% fat.

Here's a quote from Mary Straus' Dogaware article about lowfat diets that explains the fat breakdown more thoroughly:


As a general rule, veterinarians consider diets with less than 10 percent fat on a dry matter basis (less than 17 percent of calories from fat) to be low fat, while diets with 10 to 15 percent fat (17 to 23 percent of calories) are considered moderate fat. Foods with more than 20 percent fat are considered high-fat. A few dogs may need a very low-fat diet, especially if they have hyperlipidemia, or if they react to foods with higher levels of fat.

I didn't check the detailed analysis for any of the wet foods, so the fat content may differ. But I just wanted to give you the heads-up that if you are wanting to limit Molly's fat intake, unfortunately fat content may be an issue with many grain-free foods. It may not be an issue for her, but I do want to mention this in case it is. I have spent hours poring over nutritional profiles trying to find an acceptable food for Peg given her history of allergies and pancreatitis. :o

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Thanks Marianne, you're right. I need to find one that is a lower fat content. I have several samples, so I'll check each one out to see what might work best. I like the ingredients over all, so we'll see, but a pancreatic attack is not something any of us need to deal with!

Thanks for catching that, I didn't think to look even!!!!

huggers
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Renee]

www.dogfoodadvisor.com has all the dry matter fat (and other such info) already computed for most dog foods.

A procedure we've used in rescue for dogs that have small stones is to do a hydropulsion (I believe that's the name) - they basically force water into the bladder and flush it out a few times, washing the stones out. Less invasive than outright surgery... but, still something that needs to be given a good deal of thought.

Tobey had bladder stones and crystals, but I opted to have the stones removed rather than try shrinking them on the SO diet. I really think the only things that make the SO diet 'successful' is the salt content, which encourages drinking water (to flush out the bladder), and the low protein content. The lower protein is because crystals form into stones when they are present in conjunction with a UTI (usually). The lower protein is supposed to limit the ammonia with which struvite stones are formed (along with magnesium and phosphates).

[labblab]

I used to rely a great deal on both dogfoodadvisor.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. However, both sites now continue to carry reviews that are out-of-date and do not reflect more recent formula changes. In the case of dogfoodanalysis, I don't think there are any reviews that are more recent than 2010, and most are even older. And with dogfoodadvisor.com, another problem is that they tend to provide analysis for only one food for each manufacturer, stating that this is "representative." In many cases, this is really inaccurate because there can be huge differences in the profiles of different foods offered under the same brandname.

This has been very disappointing to me, because as I say, I used to rely on these websites quite a bit. I guess the explosion in size of the petfood industry must be largely to blame. It would be impossible for any single site to provide current and comprehensive reviews of all available foods. So these sites may still be useful as far as researching specific product lines in which an owner is interested. But once having selected a label of interest, I strongly encourage people to go directly to the website to examine the current list of ingredients and the nutrient profile. "Guaranteed analysis" is usually always offered. But if you can find a "Nutritional analysis" or "Detailed analysis" in addition, that usually offers even a more accurate portrait of the actual food content. The Guaranteed Analysis gives "minimums" and "maximums," but the more detailed analyses give a more accurate picture of the true and consistent profile of that particular food formulation.

Marianne