Bagel - Beagle/Bassett - Bagel has gone to heaven

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW am glad to find you guys...


Bagel just finished 4 weeks of Lysodren maintenance and had her stim test SAT...

Got the results and of course I left them at school today becasue it was a rush to get out..

Anyway Doc says they are a little high..maybe 7 or 8 I just can't remember today- and to increase the weekly dose by 1/4 of a 500 mg pill..meaning 2 500 mg pills each Thursday.. (40 pound beagle basset)

She seems to be doing well..Had one diarreah accident last Thursday
( dosing day and I give her 1 500 mg in the Am) but he says that wasn't from the pill ????

Anyway..water consumption picked up Fri and Sat but seems to be back down maybe today...
Do NOT want to LOAD again so am hoping the 1/4 more will help.
Now she is fussing to go out and that is always good so we will talk to you soon... Sande

[mytil]

Hi Sande,

I sure am glad you found your way here too.

Just an FYI - Many actually split the maintenance dose over several days - for example, meaning in your case 500mgs on Tues and 500mgs on Thurs.

I am wondering outloud why your vet wanted to go to maintenance when the post ACTH stim number was a bit high. There are some doggies that do okay with the numbers slightly above 5 and this could be the case with Bagel. You may want to ask your vet for further explanation.

The diarrhea episode could be attributed to an upset tummy maybe from the Lysodren. Did it settle pretty well with her during the loading period?

Continue to keep us posted on your sweetie pie
Terry

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

Glad we BOTH found canine cushings here.

I really can't remember all of Bagel's details ... eg weight. What does this now work out mg/kg?

I know your vet really only wants to dose once a week BUT one of the reasons for splitting into doses over the week is to keep on top of the adrenals regenerating. See how you go but you may want to TRY and convince your vet the Dr Feldman suggests this is the best way to go.

I recall that your post ACTH after loading was either just below 5 or just above 5 ... Sometimes you are able to reduce the post cortisol number by increasing the maintenance but I'm sorry to say you may be in for a reload ... here's hoping that won't be the case.

Just keep a tabs on the diarrhea ... whether it happens just on Lysodren days. This may also be a good case for splitting the dose.

Take care
Angela

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

How is Bagel today? Something you might discuss with your vet is giving him a Pepcid AC when he has the Lyso if that seems to be what is upsetting his tummy. But talk to the doc first and if you get the OK then be sure you get the AC not the Complete or any of the other varieties. The generic is called Famodidine (sp) and wally world has their own brand as do several stores, but again not the extended, etc.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Hey Guys,.,
Finally realized these posts go backwards from the ones at the old site...

OK let's see...

Bagel loaded in 6 days altho the vet thinks I may have ended it too soon...
Her pre was 4.2 and post 5.9 then....

She weighs 40 so her weekly maintenance has been 1 and 3/4 pills on Thursdays. Took forever to get him to let me do it in two doses on Thursdays....

She had no diarreah during loading nor the other three weeks..Just once BAD episode when I got home last Thursday after having 500 mg that morning. I gave her pepto bismol and then her 3/4 that evening as the vet instructed ..She was fine..

She sure has more energy....but today she was peeing every second so I caught a tiny specimen and took it and sure enough another UTI. ( she had two bad ones last August before being diagnosed with Cushings...)
anywayyyyyyy I am now the proud owner of 14 days worth of meds for that as well..

Her 1 month maintenance stim was SAT and he said a little high at 8.9
So that's when he increased her Thursday dose by 1/4 which makes it a total of 1000 mg that day. He said no tests for 3 months unless she goes back to the water and food like before and we might have to load again..I said NO that was to hard on ME!! ;)
If she has any probs tomorrow with one pill in the Am and one in the PM I may just do the Tues and Thurs on my own next week...I tried asking about it before and he said he had never heard of that...and he IS tops in the area and beyond, and I know they get so many "internet" diagnosing from patients' parents...so I may just have to do it on my own....

I give her a regular pepcid every day since she wants to eat grass so much.
Doc said 10 mg of Famotidine per day. I HAD used the AC but it was 20 mg and he said that was a people dose not a dog dose..So I cut back to the 10 mg and she seems pretty good about not eating grass in the afternoons.
I also give her SAM-e daily...
WOW...and try to work fulltime with 10 year olds..
SO I am very tired today and since tomrorow Am is dosing day I will sign off..
I Do so appreciate all the help and advice here and at least YOU don't think all the money we spend on these babies is foolish!! Thanks for all..
Sande

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

Mmmmmm ....

Ok, this is my opinion and others may chime in ....

I believe with the post of 8.9 you are going to do very little with bringing those numbers down. Your vet has changed the dose from 48mg/kg to 55mg/kg. Generally you should retest a month after a dosing change, others may want to comment on this ... maybe your vet is wanting to get an erosion effect and believes that it will take a number of months ... not one month to see this. Sorry to say but IMHO, I believe you are in for a reload.

I know you already do ... but keep an eye on Bagel's eating and water intake and take her in earlier for an ACTH. I have done this a couple of times when our vet has kept Sabre's dose the same and I believed it should have been increased.

Oh yes ... what we do for our beloved pets ... just spent $360 there today and looks like surgery on the cards to remove a lump next week ... OUCH!

Take care
Angela and Sabre

[Bagel's Mom]

thanks Angela.....

I can't remember exactly what he said when he called me- I was not in a quiet place And I was trying to write fast... but I think he was saying the high number was still ok and that it wasn't bad unless it got near 25????
Does that make sense?? maybe I didn;t hear that correctly...

I do know that at the end of the week- (last Friday) a day after dosing, I noticed her water intake was doubled- and then she was acting very hungry over the weekend. It was a busy weekend and my son was home- and she seemed to be begging for everything we ate moreso than usual but I also attributed it to his eating all the time too!

Just gave to 500 mg pill, the UTI amoxi pill, the pepsid, and now my turn to get ready for work! I mixed turkey babyfood, green beans and rice and she really likes that- hopefully it will make it easier on her tummy today!
Sande

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

Could you please verify those numbers for us on the ACTH and what your vet said was getting high enough to be "bad"?

Hope you have a great day!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Hey Leslie,

Her pre (after 4 weeks maintenance) was 7 her post was 8.8

he said between 1 and 5 was perfect

I swear I thought he said it wasn't really bad til 25?

Could I be nuts?

[Squirt's Mom]

Could I be nuts?

Yeah, but you're in good company! :D:p

[StarDeb55]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Angela on where you stand with Bagel. A post number of close to 9 is not going to come down much at all with a simple increase in the maintenance dose. I speak from experience with Harley as I have had to reload him 3x since his diagnosis a year ago. One of his stims prior to a reload showed a post of between 9-10, if memory serves, I had an IMS who insisted that this was ok as long as he was symptom free. Within a week or less, Harley started peeing all over the house, drinking tons of water, etc. I made several phone calls to the IMS over a period of 3 weeks insisting that something was wrong, & he needed to be seen. After 3 weeks, when they finally agreed that I needed to bring him in, his ACTH showed a post of >20. I, immediately, opted to reload at a higher dose.

It sounds like Bagel is already becoming symptomatic, so I am afraid you have a reload in your immediate future.

Debbie

[frijole]

Hey Leslie,

Her pre (after 4 weeks maintenance) was 7 her post was 8.8

he said between 1 and 5 was perfect

I swear I thought he said it wasn't really bad til 25?

Could I be nuts?


Hi! A possibility is that they were confused and not you! A normal dog's cortisol isn't considered high until 22. Once dx-ed with cushings the whole scale changes. That is because the levels have to be reduced and maintained at those levels (due to overproduction). Thats where the 1 to 5 level comes in. So probably they were thinking of normal level and not a cush dog's level.

My dog's levels went to 13 or so after a few weeks on maintenance and I remember the disappointment. Some dogs just take higher doses and longer to fully load and maintain. Its OK - you just do another load (same routine) and retest. We ended up increasing the dosage in order to accomplish that and to maintain it.

What is your vet suggesting?

[Bagel's Mom]

AT this point, he said increase the Lyso by 1/4 pill..
Which I did yesterday. No adverse effects at all this time and she even was playing with a toy which she hasn't done in many months.

I am wondering....The STIM test was Saturday and Weds she was dragging herself on the floor(wasn't the glands) and trying to pee on every blade of grass, so I took a small specimen in ...and she had a UTI.
I read that the Cort. levels can be high due to several things, one being a bacterial infection. So I am wondering if THAT could have made her test results high?

[Bagel's Mom]

OH..Yes he DID say to monitor her behaviors ( food and water intake) for a possible reload...

I HATE that since they wanted to do 8 days of loading and I KNOW she loaded at 6...
and they let me stop...but even her loading dose was high- (pre 4.2 and post 5.9)

oh well...we DO learn a LOT huh?
I am working on diet now...
I am feeding her canned chicken/rice/green beans and a sprinkle of holistic kibble...seems to agree well...
of to the showers. thanks everyone!!

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

What dose did you load with? I know you posted that information on cc.net but too bad I don't have a photographic memory. :D

Finding the right maintenance dose isn't always easy and hindsight is 20/20 and makes you go DOH! I believe part of the problem may be the once a week maintenance dosing. You are giving Bagel a huge dose in one day and that makes absolutely no sense to me. My dog's IM says no less than twice a week maintenance. We have split both Lulu's and Jojo's maintenance into thirds and dose on Mon, Wed & Fri.

I have an audio of a lecture given by Dr. Edward Feldman and he stresses to his students to never give once a week maintenance dose but rather split it up into as many days as you can. For instance, he would probably have you give Bagel 1/2 pill on Mon, Tue, Thur & Fri. It's rather odd that you had to beg your vet to split Bagel's maintenance dose. :( Has he had much experience in treating cushdogs?

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

Sande, when you indicated that your vet was pretty set about only once a week maintenance dosing, I thought to myself that this was going to be an problem, but I realize you have to follow your vet's instructions. When Harley was first diagnosed, the IMS wanted him on twice weekly maintenance dosing. When I moved his Cushing's care back to my GP, the GP was pretty adamant that he wanted 3 times a week maintenance dosing. The GP felt that the more frequent dosing kept the blood levels of the lyso more uniform, & wouldn't allow the adrenals time to regenerate.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Trying to remember everything in the last two posts...

She loaded at 1 and 3/4 per day...I think that is 875 mg? I am bad at metrics since I teach elementary school!..

He told me out of 90 Cush dogs treated, only 2 didn't make it ..

There are three vets there and they all follow what has proven best in their experiences I guess? The yare always gone to lectures and conventions to learn new stuff...

But when I asked about splitting the dose over several days he said he had never heard of that and "no"....

Being only a little over a month on here, I know you all continue to refer to Dr. Feldman. Is he a local person, or where do you get his name and his info? I did download his lecture on Cushings, but don't know who he is.

She is now taking 2 500 mg pills on Thursdays( 1000 mg) ...and the last stim was SAT when she got those numbers. BUT she did have a UTI a couple of days later which she could have had then when she was tested,,I am hoping that is why the numbers were up?

IF I decide to split her dosing...how would 1000 mg best be done....?
Just curious..
She IS feeling better and I can tell a difference in her in just a little over a month...
thanks!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Bagel 1/2 pill on Mon, Tue, Thur & Fri.


Hmmmmm......Would that be morning or afternoon or would it matter?
AM THINKING......

She dosed on Thursday...

Sun Tues Thurs ???

[StarDeb55]

1/2 pill, 4x per week sounds like a good plan. Time of day that you dose doesn't matter, you just need to give with food which you already know. Dr. Edward Feldman is one of the foremost authorities on canine cushing's disease in the world. This link gives you just a little more info about Dr. Feldman. You could probably find more detailed information about him on the UC-Davis vet school website.

http://www.wvc.org/content/?c=42&id=19&dc=n

Debbie

[lulusmom]

I dose my dogs in the morning because it's convenient.

Dr. Feldman is a professor at UC Davis. He is extremely well published, well known and lectures on cushing's and other endocrine disorders all over the world. If your vets go to conferences, seminars and lectures to keep current on cushing's, I would suggest that they attend one of Dr. Feldman's lectures. The audio I listened to was a 2007 lecture in Seattle. He has been treating dogs with Lysodren for over 36 years and knows it like the back of his hand. He was adamant and used the words "never, ever" give a dog once weekly dose unless you absolutely have to. The example he used was a dog getting 500 mg maintenance which should be spread out as 1/4 pill on Mon, Tues, Thurs & Fri. In addition the reasons that Debbie has given you for spreading over the week, it also makes it a lot easier to adjust a dose whether it be an increase of decrease. In Bagel's case, it would be 1/2 pill on Mon, Tues, Thurs & Fri.

Glynda

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,

About re-load vs. upping the maintenance dose: Late fall/early winter, my IMS wanted to do a maintenance dose and then kept raising the dose, while the people here suggested I do a mini-load. I did what the IMS vet said, it seemed to work for a while, but then his cortisol levels kept creeping up. When he posted at 9.2 last March, she wanted to double his maintenance dose - the people here warned me again - I spoke with my GP vet instead & decided to try a mini-load (2 weeks ago). The mini-load went well.

What Debbie & the others say about splitting the dose throughout the week makes complete sense to me. Also, I found for my, now 79lb pup, 500mg is just too much for him with one meal. During the recent mini-load, I tried 500mg twice daily, and it seemed that my Wylie couldn't handle 500mg with one small meal (he handled 500mg fine when he was getting 2 larger meals per day, but now he gets 3-4 small meals per day). He doesn't eat grass that often, but he did nibble a little of it when I gave him 500mg. During the loading, I started with the 500mg BID(twice daily), but then lowered it to 250mg BID. For his maintenance dose, I am currently going to do 250mg BID on Sun & Thurs and 250mg once on Tues. I'm sure I read that a maintenance dose should be minimally split over at least two days a week. If you do decide to split the dose, instead of the Tues & Thursday, you should try to have two days in between to even it out more - or split it out more as Debbie & Glynda said.

I really think your vet is not reading the protocol instructions carefully (or not at all:confused:).

-Susy
(In the time it took me to write this post, 4 new posts were made to this thread - I'm a turtle writer)

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW you guys are great...
I did go research Dr. Feldman and I really see his words repeating a LOT about splitting the doses..
I think I am just going to do it. She has very loose stools today- the day after the 1000 mg and bad diarreah last Thursday after the morning pill.

My vet goes to conferences all the time.... I wonder if maybe they think they have this Cushings down pat so they go for other stuff?

ANYWAY....

I need for her last dose NOT to be on a Friday since the next STIM test would need to be 48 hours after the last Lyso dose and that would be on Sunday...right?? Does it need to be exactly 48 hours after the last dose or at LEAST 48 hours?

[maggiebeagle]

Just checking in and wanted to send happy wishes your way for you and Bagel. Maggie was a trilo girl (when she was being medicated) so I don't have any advice about the lysodren. You are doing great!
Virginia and Maggie

[StarDeb55]

The stim should be about 48 hours after the last dose. You don't have to be exactly perfect on the timing. For instance, Harley is on a M, W, F, schedule, I try to have his stims done Friday mornings which would actually be about 36 hours since the last dose, since I dose in the evenings. If I happen to get the stim done on Thurs., both the vet & I take in to account that the numbers woul probably be a tad lower than what was reported because of the lyso being long-acting.

Debbie

[forscooter]

I have nothing to add but did want to let you know I am trying to catch up...reading reading reading...I remember you loading Bagel, then I got lost, and now here I am...I think you are doing just great and I will be hoping things settle into a routine for you soon!!!
Hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Bagel's Mom]

thank you ALL....

I have some thinking to do here and I really like the idea of splitting these doses! She is such a special girl and I know you ALL understand THAT!
HAPPY FRIDAY!:D

Sande

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

I just wanted to say hi ... I have been catching up on you. It looks as tho you have been in good hands. I haven't had a chance to look at Glynda's link about Dr Feldman ... but he co-authored a textbook with Dr Nelson which is considered to be the "bible" on cushings. If you search his name on the internet he has done so much research and lectures on cushings. We are about to restart on Lysodren on the same dose as Bagel - 4 x weekly dosing, 1/2 tab.

Now with the ACTH ... this is how I have done it if I do 4 x weekly dosing. If you wanted to continue with Saturday testing ... you could do Tues, Thur, Sat, Sun.

I know it is difficult with your vet being "fixed" in their way of doing things. Maybe when they have confidence in your expanding knowledge they may take a "team" approach which I believe is absolutely necessary in the case of cushings. you are the one that sees your dog everyday and can monitor their well-being. Your vet only sees them every once in a while. My vet used to be very fixed and adamant in the way I was to medicate Sabre. She now knows that I am constantly reading and keeping in touch with this forum that we now have "discussions" about our dosing changes and we come to an agreement of where to go next. Sabre has yet to actually stabilise on any maintenance dose ... unfortunately ... so sometimes we are playing a guessing game!

I hope that you are able to sort everything out for Bagel.

Take care
Angela and Sabre

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi Angela!

Early Saturday morning and a great quiet time for thinking.
I totally adore and respect my vets- we have been together 10 years since they opened- they have the rep for being the best and are involved or in charge of so many local animal care venues along with their practices- so I feel that they have our best interests and are doing what they know best-

I did read a lot about Dr. Feldman and I am convinced that it's kinda like the old days of the pediatrician's advice....sometimes you have to do what you have to do.........and I am a researcher!

I am not locked in to SAT testing- in fact, they don't even do that on SAT but he does it for me because the last loading day was a Thursday- so that is when he wanted her maintenance dosing day to be-

When she loaded and I was sure she was- due to the appetite and water decrease- I talked them into testing her even though it was day 6 and he wanted her to do 8 days. Her post was 5.9 and I am wondering if we started maintenance when it was too high and I missed the signals?

ANYWAY....
five weeks into maintenance- she does have more energy- appetite is always good but not voracious- stools are very soft the next days after that huge one day dose...and then the UTI this week...

The bad day she had diarreah (week 4)- when I came home it was dinner plate size on the carpet which she had never done.I was so worried this week when I dosed her that I would come home and find it again- I didn't thankfully. But for the last two days after the 1000 mg day it is very loose.
So gut feeling- I want to spread these doses out.

He said unless symptoms or behaviors changed, we wouldn't test again for three months. By then nobody will remember what day(s) she doses..:rolleyes: by that time I will be out of school for summer break and any day will work for us...

So bottom line, if I go from 1000mgs on one day to 250 over 4 days, there will be less shock to her system and more continuity to the medication working?
I will continue to research and read this forum- it just makes so much sense to hear over and over how people spread the dosing out!
Sorry for the book here- I am more productive in the early hours! HA
Sande

[ChristyA]

We spread our dosing out also. It worked very well. Dexter didn't get the blahs when we spread it out that he would get if given a big dose on one day.
Christy

[Bagel's Mom]

Hey All,
Well. my brother says I am obsessing..and of course I am over this dosing thing.( His cat is 20 1/2 years old so HE would know HA)

I have read over and over the articles where Dr. Feldman has said 4 X a week when possible. ( what would "possible" mean?) Would impossible reflect on an owner's being ABLE to keep that schedule or what?

If the Lyso is a slow moving drug and stays in their system 48 hours, then
a schedule of 1/2 pill Tues Weds Fri Sat would keep her medicated all week long consistently and then be ok for a STIM on Monday mornings...which, unless she starts showing symptoms, won't be til July.

I guess if she gets symptomatic I would have to get her tested and have to confess not following his directions. BUT
a chance I will have to take? It just makes so much sense and the fact that Dr. Feldman has concentrated his studies to treating this disease for sooo many years...

Ok how does that sound for dosing, all ye who have this down so well?

Sande

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

I think your schedule sounds great. I am pretty sure that "if possible" is a reference to a pet owner's ability and committment to administering the dose four times a week. I'll pass on responding to your brother's comment as I admit to being totally obsessed with Cushing's. It's a serious disease that's difficult to understand....the nuances are many and unfortunately are conflicting at times. You are doing exactly as you should...reading and researching so that you can make informed decisions about Bagel's medical management and can explain your rationale to your vet. Good job!!

Glynda

[Bagel's Mom]

:):D Thanks! Am feeling peace already!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

Just want to say you are doing a great job with Bagel! All your research will help Bagel and may help your vet to learn a bit more about Cushing's so he can help others on down the road. It's kinda funny how many of us have been able to teach our vets a thing or two about all this. When the pup shows improvements that the docs can see, they really have to listen then and rethink some things. I just love Dr C and she has been excited to learn new things from Squirt and I which makes her TOPS in my book! :D The whole clinic works with us as if we were "members" of a club and it is absolutely wonderful! I hope you find the same to be true with your vet.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,

I think splitting the doses is a great decision and hopefully this will help with the diarrhea:D:rolleyes::D.

As for the cortisol levels, please confirm these are the results of the last stim:

Her pre (after 4 weeks maintenance) was 7 her post was 8.8

From what I have been told, & so far from my experience, the dose splitting may not help with the cortisol levels. If the cortisol levels haven't improved by the next stim, you might want to do a reload.

One thing I'm curious about, and maybe someone can please clarify this for me, is the pre of 7. I'm not sure if the high pre means anything. Does it matter that the pre-7 is only 1.8 lower than the post-8.8??:confused:

-Susy

[lulusmom]

One thing I'm curious about, and maybe someone can please clarify this for me, is the pre of 7. I'm not sure if the high pre means anything. Does it matter that the pre-7 is only 1.8 lower than the post-8.8??:confused:

When interpreting an acth stimulation test for purposes of monitoring cushing's treatment, the pre or basal number is of little value. The normal basal range (most labs) is 1 - 6 so 7 is a bit high and is probably due to the stress of being at the vet's office. I hope this helps.

Glynda

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW thanks to all of you for the support!! I started 1/2 pill this Am...will repeat tomorrow (Weds) and Fri and Sat...

I am still wondering if her ACTH test might have been high due to INFECTION since she was diagnosed two days later with a UTI and is now on AMOX for that....

She does seem to be drinking a little more and I will measure- My vet did say that if I saw signs of that appetite and water consumption we would have to retest before the planned 3 months...

She does seem more energetic now...a neighbor said she looked smaller...Little pot bellied beagle/basset has carried 40 pounds for a long time but she did take on a lot of the basset features..

Will keep ya posted this week...I am very excited about splitting the doses!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Checking in...
SAT evening.....This week with the four dosings, Bagel has had an easy time...NO diarreah and NO probs...

The weather got really HOT all of a sudden but I am keeping it cool inside for her...

What a difference with the dosing...I am just thankful for an UNEVENTFUL week!!

S

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

I am so glad to hear that Bagel is doing much better on the split doses. The number one Lysodren side effect is GI upset and she was getting a whole lot of Lysodren at one time. We'll be keeping fingers and paws crossed that the additional 1/4 pill will get Bagel's next post stim number where it needs to be.

Glynda

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

Fantastic to hear that Bagel is doing well with splitting the Lysodren over the week.

Angela and Sabre

[Bagel's Mom]

second week of splitting doses...NO PROBLEMS..
One of the other vets told me SHE split the doses..and that everyone did things differently...
I got some educating to do....
Appetite is NOT extreme and water is normal....
Happy Friday

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Sande,
Glad to hear Bagel is doing better. Hope Bagel continues to improve.:)
John (Roxee's Dad)

[Rusty's Mom]

I'm so happy for the two of you! May Bagel have clear sailing for a while!

MJ

[Bagel's Mom]

thank you ALL!!! and the same to all of YOU and YOURS

[Wylie's Mom]

So glad that Bagel is doing so well with the split doses:D:D:D!


The weather got really HOT all of a sudden but I am keeping it cool inside for her...

I do the same thing for Wylie...people say, "Geez, it's like Alaska in here!!";)

-Susy

[maggiebeagle]

Don't be surprised if Bagel develops an interesting coat in the next few months. When Maggies fur came back in, it was a very fuzzy puppy-like coat. It's not quite so fuzzy now, but is still mush more lush than the usual beagle/basset coat. Several othe people have reported the same thing.
Glad to hear things are going well :D.
Virginia and Maggie

[Kwiggles]

Hi Sande,

So glad to hear Bagel is doing well on her new regimen!

I wanted to tell you about something I discovered for keeping my dog cool which you might want to try with Bagel- just a couple of days ago a friend lent me a pad called a "Canine Cooler" which she uses for her dog on long car trips when he gets overheated and uncomfortable. Its a pad made of heavy gauge vinyl filled with a kind of gel which absorbs the dog's body heat as they lay on it and keeps them cool. You can cover with a sheet or just use it uncovered.

I put it on the bed for my dog Joe and he flopped right down and zonked out- it was the most restful night of sleep he's had for a long time (me too!) I'm going to look around for it in local pet shops but I'm sure you can get it online. I can vouch for it- it really works (and no, I don't work for the company! :D)

Best wishes to you & Bagel & and keep cool :cool:,
Karen & Joe

[Bagel's Mom]

Okay that sounds wonderful!! Thanks Karen and I will be loking for that.

We live in the South and it gets really humid in the summer- We will take our best walks in early Am and later evening.

Took the specimen in from her 2 weeks ago UTI and all is clear!! We did the Happydog dance for THAT!

Even though she is only a month into the meds I can already see a change in her belly shape, skin color, and energy levels...The hair is not coming out so much, and it never did get too thin- but I will watch for a fuzzy beagle! Bet that is cute!

Sande

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

So glad to know Bagel is loaded and doing so well. :) I know you are relieved that part is over! :D Hope things go very smooth from now on!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Leslie...

It's just a one day at a time thing isn't it?

I thought one of her eyes looked red last night...and she has always had an allergy time in MAY to the grass and other pollens...

question:
Now that she is on maintenance dosing, I understand that her stress levels are affected...
I will have some surgery in June.Just one overnight in the hospital...
I have a fabulously caring kennel where she has stayed in the past..PRE Cushings...and they are so fond of her....

My son will come home to take me and stay- can't decide if I should put her in the kennel for a little over 24 hours ( I hate the nights when she is there without people to fawn over her) but they are more used to meds than my son is...
OR let him wing it and assume she is more peaceful at home even with Mom gone for two days and one overnight?

Sande

[StarDeb55]

Sande, even though you really like your kennel & trust them, it's still not home. If I were in your position, I would let son take care of her at home because it will minimize the change in routine, & thus, minimize the stress. I would leave clear written instructions, including a med schedule with dosages. I think both of them will be fine. I assume your son is pretty dependable overall.

Debbie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

If Bagel is like Squirt, she is gonna know something is up, no matter where she stays, and get anxious. I know Squirt would be more at ease in her own environment even with me gone than she would anywhere else, even my brother's, whom she loves to death. Because I know how Squirt would react, I would opt to keep her at home if at all possible. That way I would know she had familiar things around her and a well known safe place to be while mom was gone.

You know Bagel best. You know your son best. You know the kennel under consideration best. I know you will make the right decision for Bagel. You have worked so hard on her behalf all this time, I just can't see you doing any less for her in this circumstance.

I hope this surgery you are facing isn't anything major and that you will recover rapidly and fully. If you need us, we are here for you.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks..I kinda was leaning on leaving her here at home and and the neighbors and my son will all be good for her- Just ONE overnight and she loves him! He may have a hard time getting up at her time ..HA We get up at 5:30 most days!
Thanks for your concern....A stubborn polyp that has to be removed surgically but I am very blessed that it isn't cancerous..
Will save the kennel for another time. Have any of you boarded your Cushy dogs? Our kennel is very attentive to all the doggies and have always spoiled her- and have offered me a job when I retire!! But I wondered if boarding her a few days sometime would be really hard on her?
Sande

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Sande,
There are also a number of pet sitting services that offer a variety of services, may want to check into that for next time. I know a few out here that provide excellent service. Especially good for special needs dogs. They usually are licensed, bonded and insured.

Not bad mouthing all kennels, I know there are many good ones out there. I did a short internship at one as part of my grooming training. It was not one of the good ones,:( they, we said all the right things to the customers but the bottom line was no matter what, the pups were only fed in the morning, water was taken away at 5:00pm and they were let out for potty at 6:00pm for the last time. If they didn't eat in the morning, they went hungry. Owner didn't want to wake up to kennels full of poop and pee in the morning. The kennel went unsupervised from 6:00pm till 8:00 am in the morning. Many medication times were delayed or missed entirely. Owner would toss the pill if it was forgotten and time for the next one because the pet owner would know how many pills were left.

So make sure your favorite kennel is all it's advertised to be. There are many good ones but there are some bad ones too.

John (Roxee's Dad)

[jrepac]

I always ask to take a tour of the kennel....some vets do a respectable job of boarding pups as well. The place I have been using recently is a "pet resort" (LOL!) where they all get to frolick during the day...and they have little doggie huts to sleep in...no "big dogs" are allowed tho'...the good thing is that there is an attendant there 24/7. The dogs are never left alone, which makes me feel better.

Jeff

[StarDeb55]

Sande, I boarded Barkley & Harley together at my vet's, any time I would leave town, over a period of several years. The last time I did this, after B's Cush diagnosis, B got so stressed out, that he ended up with a case of ulcerative gastritis, on multiple meds to get this healed up. What really ticked me off is that I had been calling to check on them every few days, the vet techs did tell me that B had a few problems which the vets felt were stress related, but everything was under control. I asked them more than once, do I need to come home. The answer was always no. When I picked them up, found all of this out, & got sent home with a bag of pills for B, that was the last time any of my dogs have boarded. I found a pet sitter, so they can stay at home since all of this happened.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Thank you all for your candid accounts...HOW AWFUL, John!!

Bagel and my other beagle who lived to be 18 were boarded together at this place I use. They always came home happy and well rested.
When Bagel was 4, three disks blew in her back for no reason..and she had back surgery and I slept on the couch above her crate for 30 days!!

A month later, my son and I were fortunate enough to join my NAVY brother in Germany for 10 days at Christmas. We already had the tickets so I boarded her there at this kennel again and they spoiled her so much.

They have three play yards, baby listener devices and their house is through the woods from the kennel. They have cameras all day that project all kennels and the dogs can have 24 hour access to outside if they like. The doggies get office time daily with the owners and they have a vet on call 24/7.
She loves them and I know they aren't Mommy, but they are really good to her. The owner is my age and has offered me a job there when I retire from teaching!
I just wondered if the stress of being away from me would be bad for her now... I don't go away much- just to visit my brother in TN about twice a year for 4 or 5 days- but this time I am very hesitant.
Some things to think about for sure.
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

PS our vet is inside a little village township and they don't allow boarding there b/c it is too close to homes. However..I might find one of the techs we love who would pet sit !!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,


The owner is my age and has offered me a job there when I retire from teaching!


If you do decide to take a job there, then is the oppoturnity to take Bagel with you on the job feasible? It would give Bagel a chance to really become familiar with the kennel and all it's going ons. Bagel might consider the kennel a second home? Just a thought on my part.

Harley and Lori

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Sande,
Your kennels sounds like one of the good ones and run by compasionate dog lovers. It really makes a difference.
John (Roxee's Dad)

[Bagel's Mom]

Unfortunately I can't retire and go work there for another two years...but Bagel does love them there at the kennel and I do trust them...but staying at home in your own place is always better I know!!

[Bagel's Mom]

Well it is June- school is out, had my polyp surgery Monday....all good there,
and more good news is that Bagel continues to do well on Lysodren since mid March.
My son was so good to come home for me and get up with her at 5 AM to eat and go outside while "Mom" stayed overnight in the hospital.

We have not been to the vet for ANY reason in four weeks.. A record for sure!

Splitting her 1000 mg dose into 4x 250 ( four days) really made a difference and she is so much more predictable now..No diarreah- pepsid does well for her tummy...
sleeps a lot but her 9.5 years and being a chubby girl add to that.

He back left leg gives her probs when she first awakens but as we walk a little it kicks in. Some I think is left over from having had back surgery at 4- and off all arthritis meds but the glucosamine.

She still sheds a lot but that is suppose to be normal since she has only been on Lyso for 2.5-3.0 months regularly..

I was really concerned about her stress levels while I was gone for 2 days but she did fine with neighbors and my son taking excellent care of her magesty.

I keep the condo cold..and that helps now that summer is here..

Her sister, Biskit, had to "Cross the Bridge" two weeks ago. Her history was much different having had Cushings for 5 years, diabetes, liver cancer, was blind and only weighed 16 pounds when she crossed. This batch of puppies came from poor breeding and care of the parents I am afraid..But we are blessed to be doing fine on this regime.

Am sad to see reports of "our babies" passing...Each time I feel the pain too, and thank God for one more day with my girl.

Have missed you all but summer is kicking in and I am so happy to be home for 2 months with her!!
Sande

[Harley PoMMom]

Sande,

So glad to hear that You and Bagel are doing well, it was so nice that your son helped out while you were in the hospital.

I am so sorry for your loss of Biskit, mere words just can not ease the pain one goes through when they lose one of their furbabies. But know we are here for you and our hearts go out to you.

Hugs to you and Bagel,
Lori

[StarDeb55]

Sande, I have merged your update for Bagel into her original thread. We like to keep all information/posts for one pup on one thread.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks to both of you...I need to clarify that Biskit was owned by a fellow teacher friend- their grief was huge and I kept up with them through phone and emails...but any loss is a sad one and we mourn for the owners...

Will keep up now..Glad the thread was merged!!
S

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

I knew it was about time for you to have that surgery and I am glad to know it is over and VERY glad to know all is good! :D

To know that Bagel is doing so well just makes it that much better! It was so good of your son and neighbors to help out with her while you were away and I am glad she didn't stress out over it. That has to be a relief to you. A FOUR WEEK break from the vet! WOW!!! :D Wonderful!! Her Majesty seems to be doing quite well. :D:D

I am sorry for your friend's loss. No matter how sick the pup, it is never easy to lose them.

So very good to hear from you again!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

It's great to hear that Bagel is doing so well. No vet visits ( and hence the bills .....) is absolutely fantastic!!!!! Also good to hear your surgery went well.

All the best and take care
Angela and Sabre

[Bagel's Mom]

Just a question here....
Bagel is eating fabulously as she always has...
Her water consumption is very normal..
I keep my condo at 70 degrees and it is very cool...
She wants to go out, walk a few yards and do her business..and come in. Some mornings when it is still relatively cool i make her walk around more. Her back left leg has been a littel gimpy for a while, but when she walks some it gets better. I can ID with that!! Sometimes she is a little shaky in her limbs when we first start out...
Mostly she wants to lie on a rug near the door where it is really cool and isn't much up for outings..Is this a normal thing? She is 3 months into Lysodren therapy.. 9 and a half years old- AND we live in the south.
I ordered a dog stroller ( call me crazy) and plan for us to go on some nice strolls in the early mornings...but I want her to walk some too. She really wants to be antisocial from the cat and me, but always wags that tail whenever I come near her.
Just wondering. I haven't found a lot of info on maintenance behaviors other than appetite and water consumption....
Thanks!
PS I have not been home with her all day until last week when school ended..maybe it's that she has always been like this and I am just noticing?

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

The stiffness at first then seeming to get a bit better with moving, sounds like arthritis to me. And I can totally empathize! :eek:;) It's not uncommon that once the cortisol comes down, things like arthritis become more apparent as the cortisol has been "treating" the condition. So this is one possibility. The vet can tell you quite easily if this is what is going on. CRAP! There goes your record! :p

If your in the area of this cruel heat wave we're having in Memphis, then some of what you are seeing could certainly be related to that. All of mine have been more sluggish, drinking gallons of water, and other than Crys, do NOT want to be outside for any longer than it take to do their business.

The antisocial behavior is a bit concerning to me, tho. When Squirt acts that way, I know something is wrong. It may be that she is just having an off day, or she's not feeling well. If she behaves that way for more than a day or two, we go see Dr C. You know your baby better than anyone, so if your gut tells you this is more than the weather, trust it and have her checked out.

You aren't noticing any other signs that might indicate the cortisol level is rising have you? How since her last stim?

And it could be just as you said, being home with her more now, you are seeing things you didn't notice before. But keep that wonderful mom eye on her as you always do just in case.

I tried Squirt in one of those strollers when she was younger and it was "NO WAY, mom! This thing is moving and my legs ain't! Get me OUT!" :p Now that she is older, she might be more willing to give it a shot, tho. I bet you and Bagel will be very cute strolling around together. :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi Leslie!!

My brother lives in Memphis! Actually Bartlett... he just said goodbye to his 20 years and six month old kitty about a month ago...
She was a remarkable animal and he was as crazy about her as we are about our babies...

I am in NC so yes we have that heat too...

Bagel took some arthritis meds before they made her liver readings go up..They really worked fabulously but we had to stop that.

This hip/leg has always been a little bit gimpy since her back surgery and the fact she is a chubby girl makes it harder to get up and get going.
She is due for a nail trim and heartworm pill now anyway so when we go for that this week I will have them check her leg...Her last stem was Easter Monday- so it is about time for the three month check.
Her appetite is great but not excessive..Water is normal. She just sleeps a lot . I hope she likes the stroller..She loves to ride in the car...
oh well..
thanks again...
Will keep ya posted.

[Bagel's Mom]

PS..I gave Bagel one baby aspirin today...I used to give her two but didn't know if I should with the Lyso..

Today is not a Lyso day....I left her for about 3 hours and when I came in she waddled those little legs to go get her "baby" which she used to do when I woudl come home from school...We went out for a potty break and what a difference!! She was walking fabulously..

WOW was I excited...Tomorrow the nail trim and I will ask about it.
It was only one and they are coated..Never upset her tummy before..

ok Happy Day!!

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,

I would still call your vet about the baby asprin before you give any more (I believe "baby" asprin is still an NSAID). There are a couple articles on this site that might interest you, "joint decisions" & "shock wave therapy" (under the "My Whole Dog Journal Articles" heading).

http://www.dogaware.com/

I've only read the "joint decisions" one - it discusses several options for joint pain (including NSAIDs).

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Sande, please do check with the vet about the baby aspirin usage. I was using it with one of my other dogs a few years back, I happened to mention this to the vet. I got told in no uncertain terms that the aspirin use had to stop immediately. That's when we started the Adequan injections.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Ok I didn't express that very clearly..
My vet had her on baby aspirin for arthritis after the arthritis meds made her liver act up... I can't remember now what it was she was taking- it worked fabulously but then when her liver enzimes changed he took her off of them and we went to one or two baby aspirins daily..

Of course, THEN came the Cushings diagnosis- so with the Lysodren and pepsid and SAM-e and Glycosamine, I just stopped the aspirin.She has done fine without them-
It has just become hard for her to walk on tha back leg lately...

Today we go for nails and heartworm pills, and I will ask about the aspirin. It is time for her liver check-up but I asked if that could be included in the July STIM test while they were taking blood anyway- so hopefully that will look better too.
WOW..Ok thanks,always, for the input..
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

If I did this right, check out our new album and the pic of day one in the stroller..I can hardly walk now, since we walked two times this morning for an hour and a half and SHE LOVES IT!! I never laughed so much in my life!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

The pics are GREAT! :D I can just imagine the fun ya'll had strolling around. :p For next Easter you can get the stroller all gussied up, find or make some costumes for you and Bagel, then join in an Easter Parade! :) or not....:p

How did the vet visit go? Is the baby aspirin ok for Bagel to have? A vet told me once to use aspirin for a dog of mine that had arthritis but that was decades ago and baby aspirin was never even mentioned. I just wondered if they still recommend it.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

thanks Leslie...I am so stiff from all that walking this morning.HA
Yes, my vet is on vacation, but the other vet said it was fine...
I just do it when she is reallly having a hard time with that leg...and it helps!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

I keep going back and looking at them pictures of Bagel in her stroller, she just looks adorable sitting in it.

How is Bagel doing? And how are you doing?

Lori

[ChristyA]

OMG!! She is so adoreable in her stroller :p. Is that one of those strollers you can also connect to a bike? If so you could pedal her around town. She is lovely.
Christy

[Bagel's Mom]

HI ALL...
First, the stroller is a doggie stroller called HOUNDABOUT....
HAHAHA
It is kinda pricey, but it is MY exercise equipment and really has me moving...

If anyone is interested, I found it online at happypets.com and there is a code to type in to get an extra 10% off...
OK
Today she went in for the 3 month ACTH which we won;t get back til tomorrow..
She also had a 6 mth liver check and a urinalysis done too.
can we say CAR PAYMENT equivalent for the bill?
anyway...
Our main vet is on vacation but the tech we have had for 9.5 years came out and told me the liver numbers had TRIPLED since DEC...

here is ALL I know which means nothing to me..I thought maybe it would to you guys???
in DEC the Alt-phos? ( I THINK that was the word she used) was 435 when the HIGH side of normal is 212
Today it was 1380....THAT sounds bad..
The ALT then in DEC was 102 and now it is 208...with 100 being normal...

She said wait until the ACTH came back tomorrow and the vet would call me and chat...it is not the reg vet cause he is on vacation but this lady seems very good also...
I have given Bagel the SAM-e since Dec....doesn't sound like it helped..
Ok your thoughts....She seems to be fien on her lysodren...no symptoms that we look for....
will find that out tomorrow.
Sande

[StarDeb55]

Sande, have you tried milk thistle for liver support? Harley liver numbers have show a substantial improvement with using milk thistle only.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

in DEC the Alt-phos? ( I THINK that was the word she used) was 435 when the HIGH side of normal is 212
Today it was 1380....THAT sounds bad..
The ALT then in DEC was 102 and now it is 208...with 100 being normal...

Hi Sande, its Alk-phos (Alkaline Phosphatase or ALP) that's at 1380. I know every dog is different, but the last time Wylie had a vomitfest, his ALP was 1428 and his ALT (which is usually within range) was 407. We never did find out what caused the vomitting on this occasion.


I have given Bagel the SAM-e since Dec....doesn't sound like it helped..


I've read that a B-complex should be given with SAMe - I don't know if this makes a difference. I've been giving Wylie Milk Thistle and SAMe and I don't think either has made a difference, but its hard to tell... maybe his ALP would be even worse if I hadn't given him the supplements. Also, there is another hitch with Wylie, he was found to have high estradiol levels, which can also raise these liver enzyme levels. This might be a thought for you... if you don't see much improvement in Bagel's cushing's symptoms after keeping her cortisol levels down, you might want to have a UTK (University of Tennessee, Knoxville) test done. If you have some extra money, I would just bite the bullet and have it done now. Since she's been on Lyso, you can just have the estradiol level checked... that's what I had done and it cost me about $60.

-Susy

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks you guys....
I have not done Milk thistle along with the SAM-e b/c I thought it was in there already...
but I will wait I think til my regular vet gets back and see what he thinks...

Bagel threw up once about a week and a half ago..early morning...
but with hounds there are so many factors..
neighbor gave her homemade dog biscuit that might have been too old.....they are bottom feeders with gorgeous velvet ears!!
anyway.....We went strolling tonight and nothing makes me laugh so hard as that head sticking out and her being SO HAPPY doing it...
I will write that test down and ask about it..Thank YOU both!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Susy,
Arer you saying this ALK-PHOS can go up and down? Did Wylie's go back down:??

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Sande,

I'm not Susy....however, yes, the AlkP can go up and down.


Louise

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi Louise!

This is a new concept for me...I haven't heard from the vet today about the results of the STIM and what she thinks about the ALkP..
Does that high number HAVE to mean something awful and/or tragic?
Sande

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

In my opinion, the ALP value you posted isn't really a scarey number at all for a cushdog. As others have said, the numbers can go up and down, depending on what is going on with a dog and we've seen a whole lot worse. Dental disease can elevated ALP; however, in Bagel's case, I suspect it is merely a case of excess steroid. Barring any other unforseen medical issues, once the cushing's is under control, it takes a bit of time to get those numbers down but they'll return to normal. As others have mentioned, the liver is one of the only organs that has regenerative powers. Liver support via milk thistle and SamE provides glutathione (needed for cell regeneration) that will help in giving the liver the extra umph it needs.

Glynda

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,

Yes, Wylie's numbers did go down... last month: ALP - 1110 & ALT - 33. (they were astronomical when he had a gall bladder attack last year: ALP - 7634 & ALT - 1896)

About Bagel's early morning vomit... was it a yellow bile vomit? Wylie used to have an early morning bile vomit every once in a while. I read that it sometimes has to do with there being alot of time since they last ate - this made sense in Wylie's case because when it happened, it was always on a weekend, when I had slept in. If this sounds possible with Bagel, some people give their pups a snack before bedtime.

About the UTK test on estradiol levels, maybe you can just wait till her next stim or next blood test - they can just draw a little extra blood at that time and send it to UTK.

-Susy

[Bagel's Mom]

oK wow....
First, when she did throw up that one time it was a combo of not chewed geen beans and food... and not yellow at all....

The vet called today....She is new to us although she has been there a while. She said her STIM showed that she was out of range...

PRE was 5.4 and Post was 12.2
So she thinks the liver numbers are up due to being out of range..
She said she talked to an internist...
they thought the creatin test was incorrect so they are running it again...
meanwhile..
The internist wants to increase the Lyso rather than reload..and test in one month...
remember Doc increased her 3 months ago by 125 mg...
now we are increasing 250 more...
So she weighs a solid 40 pounds and now will take 1250 mgs per week.

Of course I have such a good routine of Tues /Weds and Fri /Sat with 250 mgs each time..

NOW she wants
Mon 250 AM and 250 PM
Weds 250 AM and 250 PM
Fri 125 AM and 125 PM
does that sound like a good spread??
I know this sounds dumb..but couldn't I do those amounts and just change the days to TUES THURS and SAT so when it is test time we can test on MONDAYS??
She also said give it with a fatty snack like p-nut butter or cream cheese to help absorb it better.. She is tired of Pnut butter but I think she would love cream cheese...-
well..I already gave her 250 this Am so I am going to give her the other 250 tonight...
OK SORRY it sounds so complicated..but she is doing so well..She doesnt have a voracious appetite or water intake..just seems real normal. We strolled all over tonight and now I am tired!!
THANKS ALWAYS for all the imput..
sande

[StarDeb55]

Sande, the days of the week really don't matter, it's that you are giving the total dosage your treating vet wants given. My would always tell me M, W, F. Frequently, Harley would end up Tues., Thurs., Sat., because he would not eat supper on one of those days & I'm not about to give lyso to a dog who hasn't eaten. I would just move the dose to the next day & adjust the schedule.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Debbie...

I adjiusted and gave her the other half pill last night with a chunk of cream cheese and she slept well adn just finished breakfast....

Oh these babies.....I just had a great routine going and adding the extra dosage meesed it up !!

I like the old way of 4 X a week and it has worked just fine....so when I have my coffee and think time this morning I may try to figure how to add and keep my days going,,,,
Anyway,.,,, I sure am glad you guys are here and so is Bagel!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Hello All...
I have some concerns and questions yet again...
It has been a fast and fun summer and I can't believe I only have two weeks left before school starts back..

About three weeks ago Bagel had a routine stim test, kidney check and liver test..Her stim was up, liver up, and kidney test was not run correctly and they want another specimen for that...
Our regular vet was on vacation but the other vet called an internist and the plan was to up her lysodren and test after a month. That will be next week.

Meanwhile, arthritis has kicked in again, and she has become almost lame with one back leg. Actually I think it may be her foot...It is becoming harder for her to get moving and she does not want to walk anywhere- hardly even in the yard most days to do her business.
She lays on that leg either in her bed or on the floor on a little rug most of the day. But when it is time for her to go in the stroller, she really rallies and can sit in that thing forever if I could walk that long...She is alert and loves rolling through the neighborhood in it.
But when we get home, she hobbles out and just lays around.
I guess the Lysodren has taken away the self-producing
steroids and I think she is in pain with this leg more and more.
I want to ask the vet a few things...Like, what good is doing the Lyso and all if she can't walk for the pain? IS it possible for her to have some kind of meds to help her walk without ruining the Lyso treatment?
She eats normally, drinks normally, and the fact that her tests showed that she was high in the ranges mean what if she is lame?
Much to ask much to know...Anybody had anything like this to deal with before?
thanks for any ideas..
Sande and Bagel

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

Have you had the vet check out Bagel's leg lately? I didn't go back and read through your thread so I'm sorry if you have already answered this question. Did your vet give Bagel and thorough exam such as xrays and manipulation to confirm a diagnosis of arthritis? Just curious because a dog will go lame for reasons other than arthritis. Cushdogs seem to be predisposed to rupturing or tearing the cruciate ligament and if this should happen, it is painful and lameness is a certainty. Have you noticed that she is worse since you upped her Lysodren?

Some of our members have had good results with adequan injections for arthritis so you may want to discuss this with your vet. I would much rather go that route than NSAIDs. Here's a link to info on adequan.

http://www.luitpold.com/canine/faq/faq.htm

Glynda

Glynda

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW thanks Glynda...I appreciate all of this....No she has not been checked lately..Ans she is getting worse and I can tell she is having pain. I will call as soon as they open..Shots would be so much better than more Nsaids..
thank you!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

<<Have you noticed that she is worse since you upped her Lysodren? >>


yes..it occurred about that time..Thank you!

[jrepac]

if she is not putting ANY weight on the foot/leg, I'd get it checked out fast....could be a cruciate rupture.....they'll hobble around with it for days if you let them....(my Aussie had 2....one leg after the other)...

Jeff

[Bagel's Mom]

Well we saw DOC today..He says good news- not the ligament! He did a lot of manipulating and flipping her and more manipulating. He thinks it may be tissue related..
So she has to really rest and take 7 days of deramaxx and rest 7 more days after that and then see if things have changed. Also let him know by end of week if there is no change.
She took that before Cushings and it made her like a puppy!
He also said I needed to really rest and spoil her.. HAHA
but we CAN still go out in the stroller YAY
STIM test Monday...
good grief I need a million bucks!
but today was a good visit and she got her nails cut and drimmeled too.
S and B

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

Glad to hear Bagel didn't tear the cruciate ligament and hopefully by the end of the week she will feel better.

Altho deramaxx will make her feel better it is a NSAIDs, and they are rough on the liver for our cushpups...whose livers are already compromised from the cushings...but I don't think 7 days will hurt, but I am no expert or have any medical knowledge.

So rest and spoiling her are the plans for Bagel...Awww...what a life, and then to be pushed around in her stroller...you are such a good and loving mommy.

Will be looking for the results of her Stim...and the million bucks, me too!!

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Lori,
Day 3 and she is showing much improvement....Still resting but getting around better. We strolled for an hour or more this AM and now she is snoring....
HOPEfully 7 days will make her feel better...and seven more after that before he evaluates..
Just all I have left of summer vacation.ewwwwww

[Bagel's Mom]

STIM test today....and urine analysis since the lab botched it last week..

Still limping but not moaning or acting like she is in pain...Took the last deramaxx today- still resting a week more ..
Back soon..
Sande

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

Poor Bagel, double wammie today...stim and urine analysis. :( :)

Glad she's not acting like she's in pain tho. :)


Just all I have left of summer vacation.ewwwwww
Poor Sande too! :(:)

We'll be looking for the stim and urine analysis results.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

Well, I like the results...
She went from 12.2 last month to 7.6 in just 4 weeks after increasing her dosage 250 mg...

Lady vet wants to confer with colleagues to decide whether to increase her dosage a little more to get it down more.

SHE likes it between 1 and 5....another likes it a little higher...
GEEE

Bagel has NO symptoms now...Eating and drinking are god but not the least but agressive or obsessive like in the beginning...

It is hot and humid and muggy and although the house is very cool, going out the last 2 days has been rough. She pants some and after the STIM she has had a day and a half of diarreah/loose stools..and then yesterday was a Lyso day.
I am giving her rice and turkey baby food after one dose of Pepto..
She is sleeping and resting fine.

Finished the deramaxx and the limp is still there altho she doesn't seem to be in pain with it. a rainy day like today is always harder- I know that !! She still has a week of resting before evaluating that again.

Three days for me to get this house in order before back to school so I pray she will adjust to the new schedule too and stay comfy and restful.
Sande

[StarDeb55]

If Bagel remains symptom free at 7.4, you may want to stay there. Yes, the textbook ideal is 1-5, but sometimes you have to treat the dog & not the numbers. Harley's last stim at the beginning of last month was 11 something. He is doing fine with no symptoms, so both the vet & I are willing to stick with an 11.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

Great to hear Debbie...That makes so much sense..Yes she has been symptom free since after loading days in late March...

so going DOWN this time to me is encouraging...Even though lady vet says test again in a month, I think HE will say let's go a few...HE tries to save me some money!!
We went out in the stroller for 2.5 miles tonight..I am tired and she is snoring..love it!! Diarrhea:p is gone and all is well... HA

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

So glad that the numbers are coming down and even more glad that Bagel is doing so well!

I am considering a stroller for Squirt since her legs are hurting her so much lately...of course I can just see Jim's response. :p:D

Keep up the good work!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Leslie you would not believe how much she loves the stroller and how many people we meet! About 7:00 each eveing she starts whining to go in it......and that leg is still giving her a fit...so we go strolling and I am worn out but she is so cute with her head sticking out!!

It was expensive, but MUCH cheaper than any exercise machine and I never tire of seeing her smiling face in it!!

I did have a link where I got it $ 30 cheaper...

I go back to school tomorrow...downer....I have had so much fun being home with her ..Will be hard to get into the routine!
Sande

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

I have been reading but not posting so I have been kinda in the loop. I have to agree with the others re the latest test results ... if Bagel is good ... I think the results are good. Sometimes you really do have the treat the "dog" not the "numbers" ... particularly when you have other issues in the pot.

I guess it must be your first day back at school so I trust everything went well and the kids behaved ... mmmmm

Angela and Sabre

[Bagel's Mom]

Well my second workday..THANK goodness the kids don't come til next week.

I was leaving at 7:30 Am and decided to go give Bagel one more hug...I found her on the bed with small puddles of fresh blood in many places. I freaked. It was vaginal bleeding.So we flew to the vets
and she was dripping. He called me and said she had a bad bladder infection and when the urine crystalized it was like shards of glass. I gave him the OK to do the Xray- and when he did he found a stone.
He says it is thin..and he didn't feel that she was a good candidate for surgery due to the Cushings..he put her on a strong antibiotic for two weeks and also changed her food to the prescription food (SO) and said we pray that these will dissolve it..She las slept since she got home ..except she ate a good dinner ...
My poor baby! She is SUCH a sweetheart and I hate it when she doesn't feel well. She had to be in terrible pain- but with her leg being so gimpy and painful, who can tell what is going on?
For now am thankful she is resting.
Sande

[frijole]

Ah poor Bagel. Sending hugs to you both!

Haley had stones a long time ago. I remember finding the blood and freaking also. Back then the surgery was $1000. Can't remember which type she had and she did the diet for a while. I eventually switched because the diet for the stones wasn't necessarily good for the rest of her (nutrition).

Anyway, I hope that they dissolve. Do you think it is causing pain which in turn is leading to her leg issue? Keep us posted. I am sure all will be just fine. Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Sande,

Poor Bagel, she just can't catch a break here now can she...poor sweet girl.

Sending tons of healing thoughts and prayers your way in hopes that those darn stones dissolve.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

Lulu, one of my cushdogs, had to have surgery twice within 11 months for calcium oxalate stones. The last surgery was done a week or two before her IM confirmed her cushing's diagnosis. So her cushing's was totally uncontrolled and she did fine with the surgery. I also have a second cushdog, Jojo, who was a rescue with raging symptoms, including ear and eye infections and he underwent surgery for castration and dental with uncontrolled cushing's. He was diagnosed about two weeks after surgery. Lulu did great with both surgeries and Jojo did great too. Does Bagel have other underlying problems besides cushing's that would make her a bad surgical candidate?

Chances are high that the type of stone Bagel has is calcium oxalate as opposed to struvite. If it is an oxalate stone, diet will not dissolve it and surgery will be required. A vet usually has a good idea which form s/he is dealing with via a urine analysis. I do hope that since s/he put Bagel on SO food, struvite stones are involved. Can you check with your vet and confirm this?

Glynda

[Bagel's Mom]

short post here- school days calling..She went for a long buggy ride this Am..She likes the SO food of course...I mixed it with her regular to adjust...
acted like she felt a little better and wasn't limping so much...
no blood thank goodness.....

Bagel is 9.8 yrs old. She has back surgery at 4 for three disks that just went ...No accident....congenital...but was paralyzed in the hind legs one day......

She did fine with the surgery,,,I have a brother who was in eurpoe as a Naval officer and HE sent the $$$ free and clear cause he was rich and generous!!

.....I slept on the couch for a month...so she could lie out hf the crate on the floor and stretch out....The surgery was a success and she has been fine since...

He just said being a Cush dog she was not a good candidate for surgery,,,,don't know the type of stone..hard to get it when you are talking outside the building...
he said it wasn't thick...
She is a dog of faith so we continue to pray and ask our praying friends to do the same...
She is a tuffie!!!
SOO will keep updating...gotta go play school now...
Thanks for all comforting words...
Sande

[Harley PoMMom]

She is a dog of faith so we continue to pray and ask our praying friends to do the same...
You both are in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,
I don't have any experience with the bladder stones, but my prayers are on their way to you and Bagel.

-Susy

[muskyhusky]

I know that some stones can be treated through their diet, Science Diet has a dog food for that I guess, that's what my vet said anyways, the larger ones have to removed surgically, he never said that Shadow wouldn't be a candidate for surgery because she has cushings disease. He was talking if her bladder infections didn't go away then it could bladder stones.

[Roxee's Dad]

Keeping you and Bagel in our thoughts and prayers here too.

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW you guys are a welcome sight to come home to!!
Met a thousand little kiddies at school tonight and all the ones from the past come by to ask about Bagel.
She had a great day and I got to come home a few times to take her out...
thank you for adding her to your prayers!! We are going to bed in a few minutes with warm thoughts of our friends on here..
Sande

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Sande,

Hope you and Bagel are having a good snooze right now. :D I've included a link for you that discusses the different types of stones. My Munch had calcium oxalate stones which were removed via urohydropropulsion, which is a non-surgical procedure.

As Glynda said special Rx food is used to dissolve the struvite stones but it doesn't work for calcium oxalate stones. I believe that SO is made by Royal Canin and just be aware that the struvite dissolving diets are very high in fat.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/small_animal/nutrition/Uroliths.cfm

Louise

[StarDeb55]

Sande, I'll put in my nickel's worth on this subject, too. I have no experience with stones, but Chewbacca turned up with sturvite crystals in his urine last fall. He was puton the Royal Canin urinary diet for about 3 months, dissolved everything like a charm.

Debbie

[Bagel's Mom]

as ALWAYS, THANK YOU GUYS!
Debbie that sounds fabulous!
Bagel had her first UTI about a year ago this time....
and I am thinking that with her leg hurting, she has not made as many attempts to get up and go "pee"..She has a pee pee rug for inside and she used it often when I was working....This summer of course she has had more opportunity to go out..
but I am sure her urine was more concentrated due to not going as often.
and also she has had two or three more UTIs this year.....
I think his idea of this food is more long term because she tends to have them..

Cushies need more protein..protein causes stones...Internist says give a fatty snack to go with the Lyso to help absorb...I put a little cream cheese on top of her food..
what a life !! Anything for my girl!!

Anyway...She is resting now after breakfast and her meds..maybe I will ask a neighbor to come take her out about noon...
gotta run for now ...
thank you all again!!
S

[Bagel's Mom]

Checking in this rainy morning...
We are doing well ..Bagel FINALLY got a clean catch on her urine specimen test yesterday after two rounds of antibiotics for that BAD bladder infection....
Doc wants her to stay on the Urinary SO food - hard to catch Cushie symptoms when she drinks and pees so much from that food...but that last bladder infection was so scary for me and so painful for her...
Oops I hear Her Majesty coming in for breakfast- HAPPY SATURDAY to all..
Sande and Bagel

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Sande,

Glad to hear you and Bagel are doing well and that Bagel's UTI is all cleared up. Thanks for the update. :D

Louise

[Bagel's Mom]

Why do Cush dogs PANT so much???

[Barney's Mom]

Why do Cush dogs PANT so much???



Panting. The panting or increased respiratory rate arises from a combination of decreased thoracic volume resulting from redistribution of fat over the thorax, pressure resulting from the abdominal distention, and weakness of the muscles of respiration.

cvm.umn.edu/academics/.../current/Dermatology/word_files/endocrin.doc

[Roxee's Dad]

Why do Cush dogs PANT so much???

I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. Panting is a symptom for pain, stress, body temp control, excitement.

Roxee panted quite a bit as most cush pups do. I found that most of the time if I kept her cool she would finally stop panting and fall asleep. Many times it meant that Patty and I would go to bed with double layers of clothing. :o I kept the house temp in the 67 degree (F) range and she still slept on top of the covers and under the fan (which we kept running all night for her) Rozee would be so cold, she would crawl under the covers to sleep.

I often wonder if the higher cortisol is causing a slight rise in body temp which causes the pup to pant to rid himself of the higher body temp. Kind of like a hot flash but maybe lasting alot longer.

[Bagel's Mom]

wow thanks, both of you!!

Yes I have it COLD in here too!!! It does seem to help most of the time...Sometimes this week she has gotten me up in the middle of the night- we go out...she finally gets settled and goes to sleep.
Makes sense about the fat redistribution and thoracic weakness..
Just always want to know if I can do anything to make her feel better!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

I also believe it has to do with if your dog has elevated estradiol hormone levels. Estradiol is similiar to estrogen, so I believe when our pups have this hormone elevated, they sort of have "hot flashes" and they pant. JMO.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[AlisonandMia]

Humans with Cushing's (or on high doses of corticosteroids) often complain of feeling constantly hot and sweaty and flushed and it looks like Cushingoid dogs experience the canine equivalent.

I think this partly the effect of the cortisol as a hormone and also the tendency for both Cushingoid dogs and humans to deposit fat around the middle must make it harder to regulate the body temperature simply because of that. And then there is the heavy breathing because of weakened muscles that Cheryl mentioned.

It seems a lot of Cushing's dogs may go on having an increased tendency to pant more readily even when all their other symptoms are eliminated with treatment. I think this happened with my Mia although I'm not sure as maybe I had just become more sensitive to whether she was panting or not because it had been a symptom of illness in the past. Its hard to know they really do pant more once they've been Cushingoid or if we just notice it more because we are on the look out for it.

Alison

PS: Another thing is that once they are treated for Cushing's a lot of dogs will grow a thick, fairly woolly coat and that can be pretty hot as well. Mia was much, much happier and cooler once she was shaved.

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks for those great replies...Clairifies a lot for me..

This has been a tough month on my girl. She had the BAD bladder infection that took two rounds of antibiotics to clear it up. Finally a clean catch!
Doc put her on Urinary SO which disrupted her system and of course she pees all the time. He wants to leave her on it to keep the urine dilluted...
A catch 22... Cushie dogs need protein....this food is corn...but protein causes stones...
anyway I end up mixing the SO with a little of her regular holistic food..a little rice..a little turkey....
She is a chubette and always has been- the 1/4 basset is a strong gene....
So I am sure her levels are messed up. but with the bladder infection we didn't want to waste the money for a STIM test in the middle of it.
She was due for one a month after her Lyso was increased.
Nights are restless and we go out most every night at 2 or 3 AM...but she potties and then settles down...
not easy when I spend my day with second and fourth graders! ha
guess we will do a STIM soon to see. All in all her life is good-
Sande

[AlisonandMia]

There is no need to worry about protein causing stones. The only time that protein (or anything related to the protein content of the food) can cause stones is with certain Dalmations that get stones because of something called purines in their diet. This is something that, as far as I know, is only ever an issue for a small number of pure-bred Dalmations. The types of stones that other dogs can get are not related to purines or protein.

Does she have stones or crystals? The SO is usually used to treat a particular type of stone (struvite) and if these are not a problem then there is probably no benefit from using this particular diet, particularly if it doesn't agree with her. Stones can make a UTI more likely as well as being a problem in themselves, so treating/preventing them is a good idea - but only if there is evidence of struvite stones or crystals being present. It is possible though that the upset you thought was caused by the food was actually caused by the UTI itself as frequent urination is something that almost always happens with a UTI because it irritates the bladder and makes them feel they need to pee even when they don't, poor things. (I've had a couple of UTI's in my time and that's what it did to me!)

It does sound like doing a stim as soon as you can would be a good idea.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Alison

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Allison,

She had crystals and a stone that showed up in an xray...I didn't know to ask what kind- but after two rounds of antibiotics and the SO food she had clear urine and the other vet said she had seen the stone xray and it was a "soft one"...anyway DOC wants her to stay on SO to keep the urine dilluted.

all in all she is good...Panting ceased a lot when the weather went into the 60s and she is not ravenous or overly thirsty-

Will do a STIM soon-
WOW these babies have to endure so much sometimes!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

HAPPY FALL..HALLOWEEN TO BE EXACT!

We are doing well....Bagel is still on the Urinary SO which I don't like, but Doc says it is a precaution for her bladder infections and the stone they saw in August.

We go out in the doggie stroller daily if the weather permits..
Cold weather (50s) has helped her so much and she walks a lot more now- the arthritis in her leg was so bad in summer but now she gets around well.

This week she is drinking huge amounts of water- not eating voraciously- just normally..but the water and peeing is big..
She has not had an ACTH test in a couple of months due to the antibiotics she was on for her bladder...and I think the SO food makes her drink and pee a lot more too to keep the urine diluted.

Prob if she keeps gulping down so much water I should get the test..
No other sypmtoms... She always has a skin issue in fall and being 1/4 Basset hound. Her underarms where it is dark and no air can get to. I bathe her in a special shampoo and spray anti itching stuff on her...and give her benadryl which helps too...

Enjoying every day and loving her more... if that is possible!
Sande

[gpgscott]

Hi Sande,

I don't know anything about this treatment to keep the bladder hyperactive. I hope that continues to go well and keeps her free of infections. And if this treatment is increasing thirst I think that makes thirst much less reliable as a symptom of Cushing's. I really think you need to get a clear answer from the treating Dr. on this.

Please continue to update us.

Best to you and Bagel. Scott

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Scott..Always something, huh? but they sure are worth it!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

On Bagel's food, did you happen to look at the ingredients? And is salt listed high up as one of them?...like top 10, just curious.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

yes salt is number 8..The purpose of the SO Urinary food is to keep the urine saturated and less likely to produce the crystals she is prone to....
but ohhh wow am i washing little rugs and she is drinking huge amounts...prob time for ACTH test..
but she is not crazy about food and before the initial diagnosis she wanted to eat 24/7....

went out in the buggy today.,,,so much fun!!!

[AlisonandMia]

I found with my dog that when her cortisol rose (and when she was on pred for another condition) that the peeing kicked in before the appetite increased noticeably. In fact the peeing (accidents overnight in her crate) seemed to start before her water intake had even increased appreciably. It seemed to me that when her cortisol level was at a certain point (probably just above 5, but I'm guessing) the peeing started and then, as it got higher or had been up for a while, her appetite was stimulated big time and she started wanting to eat everything in sight. It would be different for different dogs though and could even be different at different times with the same dog.

I think an ACTH stim is a very good idea!

Good luck and keep us posted.

Alison

[Harley PoMMom]

yes salt is number 8..The purpose of the SO Urinary food is to keep the urine saturated and less likely to produce the crystals she is prone to....but ohhh wow am i washing little rugs and she is drinking huge amounts...prob time for ACTH test..
but she is not crazy about food and before the initial diagnosis she wanted to eat 24/7....

went out in the buggy today.,,,so much fun!!!

Hi Sande,

My thinking is, if salt is #8 well then she is going to drink alot more water, and probably the other ingredients in that food make them drink more water to keep the bladder flushed out.

I would still stim her since it's been a couple of months, if I were you, just to see what is going on.

Bagel looks so adorable in her buggy, I image you still get people staring at you, don't you? and saying Awww!!!

Love and hugs.
Lori

[gpgscott]

I'm thinkin about getting one of them buggys for myself.

Who wants to push:D

Scott

[frijole]

I'm thinkin about getting one of them buggys for myself.

Who wants to push:D

Scott

:D Don't they come with motors? ;) I am sure we could push you around... I mean push you in the carriage. They do look like fun.

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Sande and Bagel,

You have a beautiful girl, there :)
Bagel looks very happy in her seriously cool buggy :D
Good luck with everything and please keep us posted
Jane and Franklin xx
________
Justin Bieber Fans (http://justinbieberfan.info/)

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks to all of you for the advice and admiration of our buggy!! Yes we meet all kinds of people and they get used to seeing us lot now!!

GOT to get the STIM....She wakes me up a couple of times a night drinking and wanting to go out..Hard to face second graders the next day...!!

She saturates her rugs during the day...so I think I need to go and arrange the test again..

She is just such a sweetie and I love every minute with her!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Well...
Back from Vet...
after two trips to take a specimen and then to go get her for a blood drop,
Bagel is now diabetic.

I am in shock...15% chance and here we are...

So I have just administered the first insulin shot..Was nothing to it as she ate and I popped it in her neck and she didn;t even know it..thank goodness....
I was a nervous wreck..have only given epipines to oranges..HA
Oh dear...now we experiment..one tonight..one tomorrow night..then two a day until next week when she goes for a curve test whatever...I know NADA about diabetes but I think I will soon.
Her glucose was 420...and he was just so alarmed that she had developed this...
Now we watch and pray and keep Kayro syrup handy..
How do I give these first ones and go anywhere like work or anything?
pray hard I know..
Sleep deprived in Carolina...
Sande

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

I am so sorry to hear that Bagel is diabetic. There is some good news for you. We have a sister forum, www.k9diabetes.com and their knowledge over there is unsurpassed. Natalie, the owner of k9diabetes is a member here as well and I am sure you will be hearing from her. Soooo, you have the best of both worlds available to you. Please do go to k9diabetes and become a member. Make sure you have copies of all the tests so that you can post the results for them. They will walk you through everything. I have two cushdogs and I've always feared that one of them or my other two might end up diabetic some day. I am greatly comforted by the fact that Natalie and her members will be there for me if I need them.

Glynda

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Sande and Bagel,

I'm so sorry that Bagel has diabetes. I know you will learn everything you can about diabetes. She is in good hands with you looking after her. You're a great mummy.
We're keeping you in our thoughts,
Jane and Franklin xx
________
Marijuana vaporizer (http://weedvaporizers.org/)

[Bagel's Mom]

Thank you both...the journey begins.....Will go to that forum now...

[AlisonandMia]

You won't need to join at K9Diabetes as you are already a member. You joined that forum while it was you temporary home. So you can go straight over and post as soon as you want.

An important question: What type of insulin has she been started on?

Alison

[gpgscott]

Sande,

We have a number of members familiar with both issues.

I can't help out a lot in terms of treatment but they can.

The best thing is you know and that will allow you to do what is best for her.

Please take it a step at a time. There are lots of people here to help.

Scott

[k9diabetes]

Hi Sande!

So you and Bagel will be doing double forum duty now huh?

I will go and see if you have started a thread at K9D.

Alison is asking about the type of insulin because there has very recently been a problem identified with Vetsulin and many veterinarians are not yet aware of it. I spent half my morning contacting vets locally to let them know.

The problem insulin is Vetsulin. If that's what Bagel started with, it will make sense to switch over to NPH right away and see how she does on that.

Welcome to the diabetes family! :) Glad the first shot went well. It sounds like Bagel is a cooperative patient.

Natalie

[Bagel's Mom]

Of course she was started on Vetsulin...................

[Dollydog]

Hi Sande,
I'm sorry to hear about the diabetes. Lady battled Cushings for 4 years and diabetes for 32 months.
You sound as if you have things under control and Bagel sounds like she is cooperating very nicely for a beginner.
Natalie will be a great help with this part of the journey. I will have to read up on your thread for more details and check back in to see if there's anything I can help out with.

Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)

[k9diabetes]

Actually, of all the dogs on Vetsulin, you are the luckiest. Because you just got started and it will be no big deal at all to switch to NPH.

She will need two shots a day though. She would have almost certainly needed two shots a day of Vetsulin too but it's not even a question with NPH.

Connect with the vet and switch over now - this is the best time to do it.

Natalie

[Bagel's Mom]

left school at noon so I could just come home and be with her ...She was fine...
Called the vet and faxed the FDA sheet to him...waiting now..they do staff meetings on fridays and then catch up afterwards...

I have to run oiut for an hour so I will wait and try to aim her shot at 6 or 6:30....I guess if I don;t hear back I should do the vetsulin tonight anyway...second shot...

What kind of 12 hour schedule? 6 and 6??
okay..tired from reading and trying to have a meltdown but haven't had time to schedule it yet..
thank you all..I feel so much better coming to the site and seeing so many people who know things I need!!!
Sande

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

Just doing some catching up and am sorry to read that Bagel has diabetes. :( But you are such a wonderful, loving mom I know you will have this under control in no time.

You are in the very best of hands with Natalie and the K9Diabetes site. Those folks can walk you through the whole deal!

Keeping you and Bagel in my prayers,
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Sande,

I'm so sorry to hear that Bagel has diabetes, too... although there are many here that know about diabetes (not me, sorry:o), you might get quicker responses to your diabetes questions at the k9d site. You can start a new thread in their "Diabetes Discussion: Your Dog" forum (since your cushing's thread is closed for posting there):

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2


okay..tired from reading and trying to have a meltdown but haven't had time to schedule it yet..

I can only imagine... but you remember how you first felt with the cushing's dx, you're a great mom and I'm sure you'll do well for her on this front, too;).

-Susy

[k9diabetes]

trying to have a meltdown but haven't had time to schedule it yet

Oh, don't have a meltdown. It will be okay... I promise. Personally, I consider diabetes a lot easier than Cushings because you can do tests to monitor how things are going at home.

You can pick any 12-hour schedule that works for you.

Our dog was very unusual in that he was on four injections a day for three years. That was challenging but I work from home so just scheduled my entire life around him! We did 4am, 10am, 4pm, and 10pm. That pretty much allowed us to do things in the evening without much restriction.

Even on Vetsulin you are almost certain to wind up needing to inject twice a day 12 hours apart. I don't know why they ever marketed it as a once a day insulin. I've seen all of three dogs in four years who could pull that off.

Chris was diabetic for five years and it was really the least of his problems. You get into a routine and after a while you don't even really think about it. You look back and wonder why you were so worried.

Hang in there. The first part is always the worst part.

Natalie

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

I too am sorry to hear about Bagel's diabetes, but I know you're going to be a pro at this in no time, especially with Natalie's gentle and very knowledgeable hands guiding you, plus you'll have everyone else at the K9diabetes forum helping you too.

I don't know much about diabetes either, so sorry, wish I could help you more. But I have to agree with what Susy has said, when you first faced cushings :eek: and look at well you managed with that dratted disease...you did a fantastic job. So I am sure you will be able to manage the diabetes just as well.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Lori...
I do remember the initial Cushings diagnosis and the scary time...
I can't wait til this becomes routine....

She runs from a syringe cause she thinks it is Pepto...
will be careful not showing these..HA
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Hello All...

Gave the shot this Am fine..Botched it last night- it went in her fur..who knows????

Getting ready to give it and run out the door to a church dinner theatre but will call and check on her as the neighbor will come check her hourly...
I may grab my dessert and leave at intermission around 8....
today was great and she is very restful and NOT drinking gallons of water...we went out in the buggy for an hour...she wants to walk a lot but I am thinking not so much exercise yet...
She usually eats at 4:30 and I am trying to make it til 6..give the shot and go...
oh dear...baby steps....

[Harley PoMMom]

Thanks Lori...
She runs from a syringe cause she thinks it is Pepto...
will be careful not showing these..HA
Sande

I can just see Bagel running and thinking "On no, not the Pepto!" :eek::D

Seriously tho, I believe once she realizes that the syringe is indeed not the Pepto and that it is something that won't give her any discomfort, which you already stated she doesn't notice the shot, she will not run away.


Hello All...

Gave the shot this Am fine..Botched it last night- it went in her fur..who knows????

oh dear...baby steps....

Oh Sande, very deep breathes...baby steps, and remember you got a whole alot of love and support behind you too. :)

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

The night was fine and when I got home, we went to bed at 10 AND SLEPT TIL 6 AM!!!!!!!!! THAT hasn't happened in two weeks....

morning shot went fine...She is sleeping...I am breathing....and feeling better than the day before etc..
Thanks for ALLLLL your love and support for US..
Sande and Bagel

[Dollydog]

YYYYEEESSS!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
You are doing AWESOME!! ;)
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)


OOPS! Bagel is too!!

[Harley PoMMom]

:D:) Great Job Sande :):D

We knew you could do it!! Give Bagel some belly rubs from Harley and I, and tell pretty Bagel that we're proud of her too!

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

YEAH!!! :D:D:D Way to go, Sande and Bagel!! :D:D:D

I knew you would get this in no time! You are one great mom!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

Babysteps getting better...TWO whole nights of SLEEP! WOW

[BestBuddy]

Sande,

I have no advice to offer because you are doing so well. You are so far ahead of the game with the diabetes and I can tell you it gets even better with time. It took me months to get where you are now and don't think you have to take it all in because it is a continuous learning experience especially with cushings as well. I was still learning after 6 years and if Buddy was still around I am sure I would still be coming across new things.

I realize now (one of the things I leaned) that your attitude and confidence (even if it is an act) will help Bagel adjust to the changes in her lifestyle. Dogs live in the now, not what it was or what it will be so love now and worry later. It is a funny thing but you will form an even closer bond with Bagel because of the diabetes and although there may be setbacks there will also be a lot of successes and they are so sweet.

Jenny

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Sande,

Oh, my....I'm a bit behind here and just discovered Bagel has diabetes now. Sounds like you're adjusting well and learning quickly. You'll be a pro with those injections in no time. I'm glad Bagel is already improving - that's great!! Glad you're getting some well deserved sleep!

Take care, Sande, and give Bagel some extra pets from me and Munchie sends a great big slurp to Bagel!

Louise

[Bagel's Mom]

Oh thanks Loiuse and Jenny!!
I can't imagine a stronger bond....She is just such a sweetie..
Great chat with the vet tonight and I had so many questions. Snacks and timing and all and she will have a curve test Thursday...and then somehow I will learn to test her blood glucose...
I am for sure a lifetime learner...!!
Shots are getting easier..She stopped eating and looked up at me while I was still giving it..didn't seem to mind at all..I am so thankful that needle is so small...
Yes, Doc was flabbergasted that she had diabetes.. He has been there since she was 6 weeks old..When she was 4 she had some discs go out in her back and had serious back surgery.,I slept on the couch for 30 days while she layed in her crate downstairs beside me..She came through with flying colors and will be 10 on New Year's Eve...for tonight we smile and are thankful for this day and opening the door after school all day to a wagging tail!
Sande:rolleyes:

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

I have been reading but haven't had a chance to log in until today! Well you really have been on a steep learning curve with Bagel lately and it appears, as usual you are taking it in your stride and doing a fantastic job! Well done!

All the best and take care
Angela, Sabre and Flynn

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW thanks, Angela!! Each day is a better day, more sleep, and a little more :eek:confidence. Tomorrow is her big day for the curve testing. I have no idea what I am talking about but I want it over so she can come home and be spoiled. I love being off today and spending it with her!!
Will keep ya posted!
Sande

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Sande.

Good luck with Bagel's curve testing on Thursday. The home glucose monitoring is and will be a valuable tool in your new "doggie diabetes toolbox". From my personal experience, the thought of a needle stick to our babies is more traumatic to us than the actual needle stick is to them. As with anything new, it will be "ancient history" in no time! :D

Keep up the good work and let us know how everything went on Thursday.

Louise

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks...Ancient history sounds great!!! Will keep ya posted about tomorrow!!
S

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Sande,

How did Bagel's curve go today?

Louise

[Bagel's Mom]

She went in at 673

2 hrs later 556

2 hrs later 520

5 hrs later 490
so they upped her dosage from 9 to 11 units and she goes back next Thurs....I got Purina DCO for her to eat..
Today we went out in the buggy and then I have been busy all day doing Saturday things..
She is resting well and slept through the night last night YAYYYYYY

[Bagel's Mom]

This week ol Florence Nightendog is testing blood glucose 2 X a day and giving the shots..
WOW would I ever have believed THAT??
I am sticking her upper lip...she is ok with it and I am getting better..
Her BGlucose is staying in the low 400s...better than the 600s before..
an thankful for every day and she is spunkier...
Sande

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Good job "Nurse Sande" (aka Florence Nightendog). I had confidence you'd get the hang of the whole procedure rapidly! Testing the BG at home will give you the ability to know where Bagel is at with her blood sugars and then between you and your vet you'll be able to fine tune the treatment.

Glad to hear Bagel is feeling spunkier too. A Spunky Bagel Beagle/Basset is a beneficial bonus. :D How's that for a tongue twister!

Louise

[Dollydog]

You are still amazing!!! :D ;) :D

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,


This week ol Florence Nightendog is testing blood glucose 2 X a day and giving the shots..
SandeWay to go Sande!! We are so proud of you, and thanks so much for keeping us updated...I am just so happy everything is going so well, and like Louise had mentioned, we knew you would get the diabetes procedures figured out pretty fast. ;):)

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

HEY THANKS for all those words of confidence!! And the tongue twister too!!
She is doing great and I cannot believe Miss "Don't touch me" lets me do this b/g sticking in her upper lip 2 X a day with no prob!! My son is home for Thanksgiving and he can't believe all this!!
She has averaged in the lower 400s this week with one 279 morning and one 534 morning...So I guess that will help tomorrow when she goes in all day for another adjusting.
A couple of yelps one evening during the shot taught me to put the syringe under my arm while she is eating and then it is not cold when she gets the insulin...
HAPPY THANKSGIVING and we have SO MUCH to be thankful for!!
Sande and Bagel

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Sande

Not much time to post (getting kids ready for school) but I wanted to say well done to you and Bagel!

Angela, Sabre and Flynn

[BestBuddy]

Hi Sande,

I found out quite early that the biggest obstacle with testing and injecting Buddy was ME and my fear of hurting or upsetting him.

Obviously I had two options being...

A. Test and inject even if sometimes it may sting a little.

B. Don't test or inject and he would die.

Well I thought it was quite obvious that door A was going to be a lot less upsetting and hurtful for both of us.

You are doing a great job and all those little tricks such as warming the insulin will make it easier. I used my mouth.:eek: I put the capped (of course) syringe sideways in my mouth while I was preparing the food for a few minutes.

Jenny

[Dollydog]

Pssst... I put the syringe sideways in my mouth too....but it wasn't capped! :eek: Never had a problem with that way ;)

[Bagel's Mom]

HA good tips always!! at least in the mouth you can use your arms!!!

She is back at the vet for the weekly regulating..I did a few dances this AM for the TECH that I was having a minor meltdown to a week ago on the phone about testing..I took the highlighted spreadsheet with me of her scores...Who'd a thunk it??
today was 289 this morning!! averaging low 400s but she feels so much better I can tell... and has lost about 3 pounds which she needed to do...food is lots of fiber and funny what we are thankful for, but now she has been pooping NORMAL solid poop for the first time in a year! food, meds, ?? The lyso seems to be fine for her as well....
When my cousin asked me how much a NEW DOG would cost....I asked him how much a NEW HUSBAND would cost his wife....
relatives....;-)

[Roxee's Dad]

I am so glad Bagel is doing well. :D


When my cousin asked me how much a NEW DOG would cost....I asked him how much a NEW HUSBAND would cost his wife....
relatives....;-)

I loved your answer. :D:D:D:D I will certainly have to remember that line and use it when appropriate. :)

[Dollydog]

HaHaHa!!! I told the vet tech one time that my husband was smart enough to realize that all the money spent on the dog was cheaper than a divorce. ;)
And if I hadn't spent all that money on Lady, I would have had a new dog in early 2007 and we wouldn't be free now to do as much sightseeing on our travels in the next few years!! :p

Just love normal, solid poop...loved it when food goes in and comes out normally!! :p :p :p
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

289....big improvement. Numbers are getting better and better.


but now she has been pooping NORMAL solid poop for the first time in a year!

Normal and solid...very, very good! I Like seeing those positive reports from "Poop Patrol" members (yes, I'm part of that club too). :D I'm glad Bagel is feeling much better and becoming a new svelte Beagle/Bassett with her weight loss.

Louise

[Casey's Mom]

Love your reply about how much a new husband would cost - I'll remember that next time someone makes a comment. :D:D

[Bagel's Mom]

HA!
ALL of you are SO welcome to use those words!!
We had a great Thanksgiving and were able to spend time strolling in the buggy AND walking.
Saturday she walked a long time around out condo complex..
THEN when she came in and laid down on the bed, I noticed about 5 different diluted blood spots the size of my palm...

Remember she had a bladder stone in August,...and they changed her food to Urinary SO and she was on antibiotics...
but it was all corn so for the last three weeks she has been eating Purina DCO for diabetic dogs...
I freaked..My vet was out of town and it was Saturday afternoon..
I called a tech ..Since Bagel wasn't acting like she felt bad at all, she told me it would be good not to go to the emergency vet- they don't have her complicated history and would want to do xrays etc..
I took her advice...Saturday night no bleeding..Sunday she has acted fine..I caught some urine this AM to make sure she was going.
NOT the quantity of her usual but she IS going. Decided to drop a specimen off tomorrow AM on my way to work...and a narrative..
and wait for them to call me as to what to do next...She was just there all day, 8-5, FRIDAY for her curve test...Wonder if being caged
and not getting to pee ( either on her mats or outside) would have anything to do with that?
Happy Monday...Sande

[Harley PoMMom]

It sounds like to me as if Bagel might have passed another small stone. These stones can pass without much pain but with irritation...hence the diluted bleeding. Just my thought here since I had my own experience with kidney stones in Feb.

So happy she is doing so well and you are doing such a great job with the diabetes. Kudos to you Sande. :D:D

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande,

I don't have any ideas to offer on the dilute blood, but a palm size spot would FREAK me out! :eek: You are doing such a wonderful job with Bagel...the diabetes alone would have made me a basket-case once again. :rolleyes: Bagel is so lucky to have you as his mom!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Bagel's Mom]

well Laurie and Leslie......
GET READY...

so I took the specimen by this morning......

TWO vets looked at it...

NO KETONES YAYYYYYYYYYY
NO CRYSTALS double YAYYYYYYYYYY
NO BLOOD in it YAYYYYYYYYYY
WHITE COUNT GREAT celebration time...

NO explanation for the bleeding SAT....
Will take that and I danced hallelujahs all afternoon....
PRAYERS ANSWERED
Sande
passing a stone makes sense then....hmmm
they were So busy and in surgerie but relayed that info to me..I will ask about that another day...
HAPPY and calm...
S

[Harley PoMMom]

well Laurie and Leslie......
GET READY...

so I took the specimen by this morning......

TWO vets looked at it...

NO KETONES YAYYYYYYYYYY
NO CRYSTALS double YAYYYYYYYYYY
NO BLOOD in it YAYYYYYYYYYY
WHITE COUNT GREAT celebration time...

S

YAHOO!! :D:D

So happy no stones were found.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Dollydog]

That's great news....have a good night! :D
Jo-Ann

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW long time no see...I basically stay on the k9 diabetes page or read read read everywhere else...

It's DEC 31st..BAGEL's 10 year birthday YAY
SHE is lying here beside me..We get so spoiled when I am home for TWO WEEKS from teaching..Christmas Break...
We have had a very very nice break....She was diagnosed in early November with Diabetes... Our vet who has been through all of her issues ( back surgery for paralysis at age 4, dew toe removed for strange growth at 5, Cushings last spring,bladder stone in August, and now this) threw open the door of the examining room to the large room where 2 other vets and lots of techs were working...he threw up his hands after she registered 650 blood glucose and yelled NOW BAGEL IS DIABETIC!!
So he calls her the miracle dog.
First she was responding to the Vetsulin and got down to the mid 300 s in regulating...then she developed a bladder infection so the scores and dosing were interrupted. NOW she stays in the mid 400s and we are working at getting that down. Her eyes are good but cataracts are growing...I am losing weight and stay in meltdowns over these shots, but the forum is very helpful and I am getting better at it..

She has lost 5 pounds on the prescription diet and NO extra food but broccoli..and she needed to..So she feels GREAT and we walk more than we ever did ..She is spunky and I thank God every day for our day and that this is our most fun time!! I hate going back to school next week and leaving her...but it is what I do best and we need that income oh yeah....I had a BIG birthday Monday and now today is hers..So I will go now and get ready to enjoy this very special day. HAPPY NEW YEAR and BLESSINGS to all of you and all of the BABIES.
Sande and Bagel

[littleone1]

Hi Sande,

I'm glad to hear that Bagel is doing better.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BAGEL:)

Have a very Happy New Year.

Terri

[Harley PoMMom]

:D:) Happy 10th Birthday Bagel :D:)

With lots of love and big, big hugs.
Lori and Harley

[Roxee's Dad]

:D:D:D Happy Birthday Bagel the Bassett :D:D:D

[Bagel's Mom]

aww she sends her thanks...We had a fun day!!

[Bagel's Mom]

HEY EVERYBODY!!

Popping over from the diabetes page...

We are doing great!! Bagel has lost 6 pounds which SHE NEEDED to do and it has helped her to walk and play like never before..

MOM is doing the blood glucose testing and the 2 X a day insulin shots like a pro....( ok most days)

Her BGs are in the mid 300s which is better than the 400s...and WAY better than her original 600s!!
A SLOW process and I am sure the Cushings keeps her from regulating faster....

But she feels good..Sleeps all night....walks more and more and the snows of the south have been fun for the most part!

Been since summer when she had her last STIM and I am sure she is off there a little...shedding a lot more lately....but she feels so good and she has the energy of a 10 year old again instead of a 20 year old!! Sometimes I wonder if I need to rock the boat with testing..
How do you fast all night and morning til they can do the STIM when she is on a 12 hr cycle for insulin and that shot about 5:45 each morning??

She has been on 1375 mgs of Lysodren since August, (3 X a week thanks to you guys!!) I am sure the weight loss ( high fiber RX food and ONLY 2 meals a day) No snacking except I cook some broccoli sometimes and she actually eats it!!..I add baked chicken breast to her 2 daily meals for protein.

Has been almost a YEAR since diagnosis!! WOW!

Oh well it is a great day and we are enjoying these happy days SO MUCH!!

Sande and Bagel

[littleone1]

Hi Sande,

I'm glad to hear that Bagel is doing so good. This is wonderful news.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Sande,

This is wondeful news about Bagel and thank you so much for keeping us updated! :D

As far fasting for ACTH stim tests, I do not have to fast Harley for his. I don't know, maybe all labs are different, but even for UTK full adrenal panel that has an ACTH stim test combined one does not have to fast their pup; I called the UTK lab to confirm this. Please ask your vet if indeed you have to fast Bagel for her ACTH stim test.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[StarDeb55]

Sande, as Lori has said, double check with the vet. This is going to vary from vet to vet due to what the lab requires. For instance, Harley has to be fasted for his stims.

Debbie

[labblab]

Sande, I think one of the reasons for "fasting" a dog prior to an ACTH is to make sure that not too much dietary fat has been ingested in the hours prior to the testing. Too much fat in the blood can interfere with the ability to interpret the samples. However, the manufacturers of veterinary trilostane recommend that Cushpups being treated with trilostane should be allowed to eat a small, nonfatty meal along with taking their medication on the morning of ACTH testing. This is because the drug is metabolized most efficiently when it is given along with some food.

So I am guessing that, when nothing else is an issue, vets and labs may be more likely to recommend that the dog be fasted -- it's just an easy way to make sure that nothing has been consumed that can interfere with the testing. But for dogs taking trilostane and for diabetic dogs, I also encourage folks to double-check with their vets in order to see whether a small meal would be permitted prior to testing.

Marianne

[BestBuddy]

Buddy was never fasted before his ACTH testing. He had his meal and insulin at 6am and appointment at around 10am.

Both the specialist and vet wanted it this way. I think they knew that Buddy was already on a low fat diet because of the diabetes so they were happy for us to keep our routine.

Jenny

PS Something to keep in mind, Buddy's BG always dropped so low I needed syrup and food after the ACTH. He used to drop a bit when stressed but I think the actual test dropped him even further.

[Dollydog]

Hi Sande,
It's good to see your post and with such lovely news. :)
Lady was never fasted for her stims. She had her trilo pill and her insulin and her breakfast just like any other morning. ;)
Will check later for your updates,
Jo-Ann & my Dollydog angel :)

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi guys!!

I crashed my computer SAT AM so I am just getting back on after getting on a borrowed one..grrrrrr

When Bagel was first diagnosed with Cushings last March, she was always fasted before the ACTH...and always on Lysodren,.....

Then the diabetes diagnosis in November- so I don't know if protocol will change or not now...

She is just doing so well I hate to rock the boat. THIS morning her BG was in the mid 200s...YAY

am sleepy here so I don't remember it exactly right now.
HA
ok well going for a nap and hope everyone has a great SUNDAY!

Sande and sweet sweet Bagel

[Bagel's Mom]

Checking in here...Bagel is doing great- the Miracle Dog...Cushings diagnosed March 09 Diabetes Nov 09. We are having a wonderful summer with me being out of school. We go out every morning in her doggie buggy and then back for cool air in the house! ( The buggy is for ME to get some walking in!) The diabetes and prescription diet caused her to drop 7 pounds, but that was a blessing and she is walking fabulously now, unlike last summer when getting down the ramp to the yard was a real effort on those hind legs. Still on Lysodren, haven't had a STIM test in a long time but I just don't want to rock the boat..I give her 2 insulin shots a day and all is well..Her Blood glucose is NEVER the same- partly due to the Cushings, I am sure. but the forum people are soooo helpful and I have learned a lot and continue to!
Hope all is well for you all !
Sande and Bagel

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Sande,
It's really great to hear that Bagel the Bassett is doing so well. :) Thank you for coming back and updating us with that great news.

[AlisonandMia]

Here's a link to the most recent page of Bagel and Sande's thread at K9D: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1439&page=32

Sande, I've just replied on your K9D thread.:)

Alison

[Squirt's Mom]

Great to hear from you and Bagle! It is especially good to hear that he is doing so well. :)

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi all!

Bagel and I had a wonderful summer..ME being home from teaching was GREAT for both of us. We took daily morning walks and 3 mile strolls in the dog buggy. BEST investment I ever made! See pics in my profile

Bagel is called the Miracle Dog at the Vet's..She was diagnosed with Cushings in March of 2009 and has been on Lysodren from the start. She takes 1325 mg per week and I spread it out into three doses to cover the week.

In OCT of 2009 she was found to have Diabetes. So Mom learned quickly how to go to the K9 Diabetes forum as well and both forums have taught me SO MUCH about caring for my girl!

She has not has ANY tests in a year...Her blood glucose is NEVER the same..but she lost 7 pounds she needed to lose which made her mobility improve SO much better and this summer she was so much more mobile than last! She is growing cataracts, but still sees well enough to bark at things she sees and walk all over the condo complex. She is bathed in prayer and I am just so thankful for every humdrum no change day!!!
Sande and Bagel

[Bagel's Mom]

I know that weak back legs are part of the Cushings package sometimes, and Bagel had a rough time last summer with her right back leg. Seems in warm weather, she pays on the floor which is linoleum over cement, to stay cool. She lays on these hips so I think that affects her walking. A few days ago her other leg got really weak and shaky and I ended up carrying her back to the house. She has really rested it for several days and I give her 2 baby aspirins a day. Seems a little better and she can walk down the sidewalk to do her business.

Anyone have experience here and does it get better?
Thanks,
Sande


Moderator's Note: Sande, I have merged your update post on Bagel into Bagel's original thread. We normally like to keep all posts on a pup in a single thread as it makes it easier for other members to refer back to the pup's history when needed.

Proverbs 12:10
The righteous care for the needs of their animals,

[frijole]

Sande, My dog Haley had the same issues but once her numbers/cortisol were under control she was fine. She was never as strong as before but the shaking went away.

[Cyn719]

Sande - just wanted to say hi and see how things are going? xo

[Bagel's Mom]

Hello all

Haven't been here in forever since moving to the K9Diabetes forums..
Bagel is now officially 3 yrs and 3 months into Cushings since March 09.Diabetes NOV of 09. She is 12.5 yrs old

She has been on Lysodren for the entire 3+ years. I stopped ACTH tests a year ago- with the 2X a day blood testing and 2 insulin shots -each day has been steady and peaceful and we are blessed to have had no incidents of anything!

My concern is the lysodren.3 yrs is a long time and it IS DDT.Lately it really makes her feel bad.I have always spread the 1500 Mgs out to T TH and Sat and 1/2 pill Am and PM on those days.

She has diarrhea on those evenings and did not want her breakfast which is bad when I have to give an insulin shot...

I just want her to have the best quality of life..
I can't stand to see her feeling so badly on those medicine days of late.

Just wondered if anyone had similar experiences- any thoughts besides batteries of tests on my sweet ol girl?
Sande

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Jenny was on Lysodren (and is also diabetic) and had a perfectly normal all is good ACTH in December. In January her appetite started waning and I refused to believe her lysodren needed to be adjusted. In April when I finally got her checked she basically had no cortisol production left.

now she is on prednisone.

Have you had to adjust Bagel's insulin at all? Jenny's insulin needs went down down down

but the diarrhea and lack of appetite scream too much lysodren to my inexperienced brain. I'd cut back and get him tested if I were you.

As far as it being DDT. That wouldn't bother me. I met a woman who's dog has been on lysodren for over 7 years, no problems. Let us know what you find out

[frijole]

Sande,

She is right - you need to have an acth test done. Diarrhea and lack of appetite are signs of too much lysodren. Chances are that is what has happened... she is slowly creeping lower. Congrats on the 3 yr mark. My girl Haley was treated for 4 1/2 years and it is wonderful to know the cushings is under control. Kim

[Bagel's Mom]

WOW thanks for all the encouraging replies! I did go by the pet store and picked up a couple of cans of Merrick products..tried to stay away from carrots or potatoes...I laced her food with it and WOW she picked up her eating....
I also skipped a couple of Lysodren doses..the next day I started it back- this week she is as normal as ever- no diarrhea and liking this new food combo..
She has never been regulated for diabetes- and having to leave her all day, the forum says it is better for it to be a little higher when they are left...
She stays in the 200s when best and 300s this week...she can be at 590 one morning and 150 in the same day or two period but that is not her norm..
Will prob spring for a test now that I am out of school for the summer and can manage her needs so well.
thanks again for all your ideas and comments!!
Sande

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

so glad that skipping a couple of doses made Bagel feel better! (sorry I called her him)

I am right with you on the blood sugar swings, We can only do what we can do!

Let us know how the test goes and enjoy your summer! Judi

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Judy...SHE was not offended...

No kidding..I was so panicky at first with the BGs,,,,but we are three years into this- and they just rise and fall...
but quality is good and we have had SOOOO many extra BLESSED days and continue to!!!
Now it is time for our morning buggy ride since I am finally out of school...
check out her buggy on our pictures...Best thing I ever bought...four years of it now!!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi all...

Bagel is still hanging in there!! We visit the diabetes forum some-
Haven't been here in a while..

3 yrs 7 months a Cush dog...3 yrs diabetic..
Bagel has never been the norm for anything! She will be 13 Dec 31 and although she has pretty much lost her sight due to the cataracts, the Beagle/Bassett nose works just fine and you would never know she doesn't see....We still go out in the dog buggy every chance I get and she still loves to ride in it all over the neighborhood...

It's been a long time with 1500mg of Lysodren weekly....Nowadays she isn't too thrilled to eat..I have just stopped the RX Royal Canin diabetic and am mixing some Wellness very basic kibble with chicken breast again,...can't give her an insulin shot unless she eats...

The Lysodren is harsh on her stomach these days....often resulting in an evening of diarrhea....Am considering just letting her live within the good numbers for her on the blood glucose and getting away from the Lysodren? Her days are good and she is still having good quality of life except for the medicine days ..3 X a week...
I know I should chat with the Vet- but we have been so blessed, having a great summer and no events!!! I just hate giving her the Lyso knowing it makes her stomach upset....

Wondering if anyone else has/had a similar situation?
Going to read some in the forum now....
Sande and Bagel

[mytil]

Hi Sande,

Glad you checked in and I do agree with you, have a talk with your vet on her decreased appetite and diarrhea. It could be something else such as some kidney issues going on that you may want to have checked out.

When you can let us know the numbers of the last ACTH test.

Terry

[lulusmom]

Hi Sande,

I agree with Terry that something else could be going on but it's also possible that Bagel's cortisol levels are too low. When is the last time Bagel had an acth stimulation test done?

Glynda

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sande! :)

It is SOOO good to hear from you again and especially good to hear that Bagel is still hanging in, "fighting the good fight"! :)

Is Bagal taking Pepcid AC or Tagamet or something like that along with the Lyso on the days she takes it? Squirt gets Tagamet, generic, with each dose and she hasn't had the tummy upsets some do. Something along those lines might help, but I would talk to the vet. ;) It may be that the dose is now too high for her or, as you say, she may be better off without treating the Cushing's....or she may need to switch to the Trilo. Ain't this fun...all those options to keep us on our toes and out of our minds! :D

I'm going to have to look into a buggy for Squirt pretty soon, and Bagel always come to mind, as well as a couple of others. The pics ya'll have of your babies in their buggies are just so cute...but something tells me Squirt is going to act like she's in prison or something! :rolleyes::p Maybe if I can find a jewel-encrusted buggy as befits a Queen, she won't object so much. :D

Do let us know what the vet says and what the game plan is for Bagel.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi all!!

No, it has been a long time since and acth test....I probably need to do that first....
She has always had a pepsid with the meds...I used to give her a blob of cream cheese on Lyso days because they said a fatty snack helped it process or something..She got tired of that too so I give it in a blob of peanut butter...


I found a food she LIKES...WELLNESS SIMPLE Duck and oatmeal...
really good BGs tonight too!! I put a little chicken breast in it for the good smell..HA

That buggy!!!! This summer the front wheel axel snapped off and it made a HOLE in the bar going across...The bike shop directed me to a welder...
I had to take the canvas cover all the way off not fun...and it cost me $50 for him to weld it...but what could I do? Any day I am home she has a fit til I go get it and roll it around to the front of the condo..
she may not see it, but she climbs right in when I lower it for her and we are off!!!
As soon as I get my cat well from a UTI then we will talk about that ACTH again.....
Good to hear from ya!!
Sande

[Bagel's Mom]

meanwhile......my cat got a quick UTI and i have had him at the emergency vet Sat and then to the vet today....a change in meds and HOPEFULLY he will start improving now....
So there went about $500+

I talked to the vet who treated him today about Bagel...of course she suggested the ACTH test..so here's the deal..TOO MANY VETS in one place....if I take her tomorrow, the"drop in " Vet will test her...NOT the one I talked to today....and meanwhile, if I wait for the one I want, it will be Monday...so I need to give the 500 mg Thurs and Sat...
but she still has pretty BIG diarrhea today and I just don't want to give her any Lyso tomorrow..
am so tired..and frustrated...and poor cat kept me up most of the night....
Sometimes I still just want to stop this Lyso and let her feel good and eat good and take our FAITHFUL chances..
Sorry for the rambling....
Been a long day of vet calls and second graders..
;-)

[frijole]

Not sure if your vet ever told you this but trust me cuz I used lysodren for 4 1/2 years. NEVER give lysodren to a sick dog and especially not if they have diarrhea or vomiting. These are signs of overdose/low cortisol. So I don't care what you were told - do NOT give Bagel any more lysodren. It continues to work for 2 days after the last pill. If you can't have the test done til Monday that is OK. DON"T give lysodren. I'd find out if the vet does the acth test or a vet tech cuz it might not matter that your vet isn't in tomorrow. Food for thought.

Kim

[Bagel's Mom]

thanks, Kim.
I just have a strong urge to NOT give it to her....So your post confirms...
One of the vets is a homeopathic vet and I have asked that she call me today...
I think I am just going to wait and talk to her...

[Bagel's Mom]

talked to one of the Vets today that is there every day and I taught her daughter last yr! She has been treating Cushings for 27 years! She recently joined my Vet group...

She could not beleive that my 30 pound baby was on 1500 Mgs of Lysodren a WEEK..... and has been for a couple of years....

She says let's take her off for two weeks and see how she is...might need blood work later..might need new medicine.. might not need but a little etc....

I was so thankful!!!

Came home to a waiting-at-the-door baby who hasn't had any Lysodren since Monday....Went out for a walk, she ate a good dinner, got her insulin shot and is now napping as I go off to church and ready to PRAISE GOD for the relief I feel today!
The Saga continues, indeed!!
Sande

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

that is wonderful news! hooray for you and the new vet

[mytil]

That is wonderful news Sande...and working a vet who seems to be going in the right direction and thinking about what is best for your Bagel.

Keep us updated
Terry

[molly muffin]

I am so glad you have someone who will be looking after Bagel as a team player with you. :)

Sharlene

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Guys!

A week of no Lysodren since Monday Am..Poop is normal again!! YAYYY
Looking forward to a weekend together!!
Sande

[molly muffin]

How is Bagel? Hope poops are still normal. (poop patrol!) LOL

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Bagel's Mom]

well....things were going well off the Lysodren with plans to do ACTH in February...

I took Bagel in for some eye probs and the vet also noticed her teeth were bad..She gave me drops for dry eye and antibiotics for the teeth...But her lymph nodes were swollen in her neck and she was concerned with her round belly...

I chalked it up to the fact this Vet had never seen her and that she had always had a belly...she did aspirations on the glands and sent it off..
last week she called to tell me that Bagel has lymphosarcoma...

She figures it is in her spleen and liver...not doing chemo or anything- can't do steroids due to the diabetes..

She told me weeks...

I cried pretty much the weekend....church folks were so sweet and covered her and me in much prayer...

different vet, the homeopathic one, has her on a herb pack called Four Marvels...if you read it, it is good for Cushings and a lot of other issues...She thought she could buy her a couple of months...

Her appetite is picky but I am being creative and she is eating...Mostly protein...pork chops/ ham and egg omelets/
found a freeze dried pattie from the pet store called Stella and Chewy and it is pure lamb..she loves this!!

she is not aware of anything being wrong- she is tired and sleeps a lot...but still greets me at the door at the end of school and I am so looking forward to being HOME with her the end of next week...

Her litter all died early in life..bad breeding....but one sister lasted 9 years. Bagel will be 13 on Dec 31....Cushings almost 4 yrs and diabetes 3.5 years...
So her life has been a miracle and a blessing and continues to be..
I will never ever let her suffer....but for now- quality is really good....
I cherish each day and try not to cry around her..
HOPE and PEACE in this advent season...JOY comes next and then LOVE....She IS an advent baby!!
Have no experience with this....any experiences or thoughts that would be helpful are welcome..
Sande and Bagel

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Sande,

I am so sorry to hear this news about sweet Bagel. I wish I could help in some way but I do not have any experience or advice regarding lymphosarcoma. I will be keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Sending tons of huge and loving hugs,
Lori

[Bagel's Mom]

Thanks Lori!!! We need em!

[frijole]

Prayers and love sent from my home to yours as well. You aren't alone. Hoping someone can offer some advice. Kim

[molly muffin]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear this. :(

hugs,
Sharlene

[mytil]

Oh Sande,

I am truly sorry. My thoughts, prayers and heart are with you and sweetie pie Bagel. I wish I could offer some direct advice but I too have no experience with this.

sending you (((hugs)))
Terry

[Sabre's Mum]

Oh Sande ... I am truly sorry to hear this news. I think of you two regularly .... sending you my thoughts and cyber hugs.

Angela and Flynn

[Bagel's Mom]

Thank you all....We are having good days of sleep and eating....
I am thankful....
I hate the unknown but am learning to lean on and trust the GOD I know....
I never cry in front of her....and I love watching her sleep so peacefully...
Sande

[StarDeb55]

Sande, I am so very sorry to hear this about Bagel. I'm not sure how much you want to do about the lymphoma diagnosis, but I thought I would post to let you know that you do have options. My first cushpup, Barkley, who got his Cushing's diagnosis when he was about 8, was diagnosed with lymphoma at 13. You can read his story here:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345

I really just want to let you know that chemotherapy does not affect our pups like it does people. This is what I was terrified about when making the decision to do chemo. The oncologist assured me repeatedly that for a pup it does not work like that. their quality of life improves dramatically because they feel better. She wasn't kidding. Barkley was literally dying in front of my eyes before we got a diagnosis pinned down. About a week after his first round of chemo, I had my boy back!! It was absolutely stunning the turnaround. Barkley underwent 5 round of a single agent protocol with doxyrubicin. He did really well, with the chemo buying him 20 months. 20 months in dog time is a really long time as I'm sure you realize. The thing with lymphoma is that no matter what you do to treat, there will eventually be a relapse. B's first relapse was at 15 months. We tried a round of another chemo agent which is termed "rescue" which gave him the other 5 months. Barkley had a terrific quality of life up until the last month, so I will always be grateful for the extra time my decision to treat the lymphoma gave the both of us. B crossed the bridge at 15, after living a full long life.

I have also contacted Bettina about Bagel's diagnosis as she, too. has experience with lymphoma with her boy Niko. I don't know how much you want to do for Bagel, but wanted to let you know that you do have options. Please keep us posted as to how both of you are doing.

Debbie

[frijole]

Yeah Debbie! I was hoping you'd see this post and share your story. This board is fantastic!!! Kim

[Trish]

Probably quite different but my brother's cat timmy has lymphoma, he had chemo too and it did not make him sick and has really improved his quality of life. He is still going and it must be coming up to a year since diagnosis. Back to playing like a kitten again :) Hope you find whats right for you and your baby.

Wishing you the best
Trish xx

[bkdice]

Hi there. I am so sorry to hear of the lymphoma dx. :( I was devastated when my boy was dxed shortly after we got his cushings under control. I was not going to do chemo either. I thought... it would be too complicated with is cushings, and he was a month shy of his 16th birthday. Debbie is the one that came to my aid. I wrote about our lymphoma experience HERE. (http://rememberingniko.wordpress.com/cancer/)

If you decide to treat, there is a wonderful support system in LymphomaHeartDogs (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/LymphomaHeartDogs/).

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, but there is some hope. I urge you to explore the options. I am sure you'll figure out the best course for your baby - which may just be palliative.

Take care....

[Bagel's Mom]

I appreciate all the replies...

Bagel is so compromised- Cushings and large dosing of Lysodren for 4 years- Diabetes for 3.5 years...She lost her sight totally in the summer...She developed a bad dry eye situation a few weeks ago and that was how they found the cancer when I took her in for the eyes...
Now I am having to adjust her two insulin shots a day with the lack of food she is consuming...She will only eat baked pork chops blended or eggs and ham and these new freeze dried all meat patties I found...and pooping is a few squirts..

The Vet said she was just too compromised to do chemo....
and I don't want to put her through anything else when I have to leave her all day every day with no one to watch out for her...
The homeopathic pack is givign her a great appetite ever if it is limited- she sleeps a lot but very peacefully... and I just lie there and watch her a lot...
We live for the moment... and right now this week the moments are good...
Sande

[bkdice]

It sounds like you are making the best choices for your baby. Try to remember that Bagel doesn't carry the emotional burden of all that is happening. I always found that fact to be a comfort.

May you enjoy every moment, and may there be many more. My sister had a dog she did not do chemo for, and he lived 6 months, so you just never know.

Hang in there.....

[mytil]

We are all here for you and Bagel Sande!

Terry

[frijole]

I join the others in sending you love and wishing you and dear Bagel happiness. Enjoy every minute, take photos, surround her with mother's love as only you can. Know we are holding you near and sending you strength and comfort. Kim

[Bagel's Mom]

Your love and well wishes are music to our ears....

I took another day from school to bake and stuff..HA She wants to go sit on the freezing ground outside so I take my phone and play games and she sits til she is ready to come in..

I woke up and found her on the pillow beside me again..This just started a couple of weeks ago...Such a sweet peaceful face...later she woke up and she lets me take her paws on my arm and hug her upper body....we slept like that a while...

She was happy to "see" the landscaper this Am at the condos..he is a sappier animal love than i am...HA she wags at him and he prays a blessing over her...

All calm..and she eats her pork chop and rice and the freeze dried meat fabulously...

My neighbor across the yard got a beagle puppy...8 weeks old..to look at OMG she is beautiful...but 90 MPH.....I so appreciate an old sleeping dog!! HA
ok while Bagel sleeps I will clean!!!
HAPPY FRIDAY..and HOPE..and .PEACE and JOY .my advent girl...