My Sweet Angel Peg

[labblab]

Some of you already know a little bit about my Peg even though I have never before started a thread that is her very own. But today I really need help, so here goes!

Here's the quick summary...Peg is a 7 1/2 year-old spayed black Lab. She does not have Cushing's. She does suffer from a seizure disorder, though, which fortunately has been totally controlled on phenobarb for over a year. She had acute pancreatitis last June, and has been maintained on a low-fat diet ever since. She also suffers from seasonal allergies which are actually worse in the winter than in the summer.

OK, fast forward to Friday morning. We awoke to find one of her front forepaws totally swollen, raw, and oozing. Obviously, she had been licking it overnight, but I think that was because the paw was infected and not vice versa. Immediately went in to the vet and had it x-rayed: no fracture or obvious tumor issue. No obvious cause for it, but the paw is definitely infected -- maybe a bug bite? She got an anti-inflammatory injection and was sent home with liquid antiseptic to bathe the paw in, and also oral antiobiotic. The paw was already looking better yesterday, and continued to do so this morning. Nothing has been out of the usual today, although both she and Luna did get their monthly dose of Sentinel, which she has taken her entire life with no problems.

Within the last hour, Peg has become incontinent. Wherever she sits or lays down, she leaks a puddle. I took her out to pee, and she did pee a great amount, but then came back inside and immediately dripped again when she sat down. I am beside myself, because this is not something I've ever dealt with before. And she is a BIG dog with a lot of pee (and our entire house is carpeted :( :().

The only thing I can think is that perhaps the anti-inflammatory injection she got on Friday is somehow causing this. I assumed it was a steroid shot, but I don't know for sure. My vet did say that he didn't want her on any steroids long-term so we were not sent home with any. She has NEVER peed or leaked in the house a single time since she was a pupppy.

I am heading off to Petsmart to try to find a temporary diaper fix. I will call our vet first thing in the morning. But any thoughts or suggestions will be so welcome! Has anybody else experienced total incontinence that literally came on overnight?

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, poor Peg, poor Mom! :(

My first thought would be the shot - that it did contain a steroid and this is the result. If so, hopefully, when the med is out of her system this will stop.

If there is inflammation in the urinary tract, the magical SEB can help there, too. ;) But I don't know that it will help with the actual incontinence. If I find anything else that may help, I'll let you know.

Hugs and gently belly rubs!
Leslie

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Marianne, I am sorry to hear this. From my reading, one of the side effects of pheno is incontinence and then adding a steroid, my guess is that the combination of the two is causing the incontinence.

Sending huge hugs and hoping that this resolves fast.

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and more hugs,
Lori

[frijole]

I did have one experience like that - when Annie was given a B12 injection. She was peeing bright yellow buckets for 24 hrs. I started taking straight B12 myself and it does do that. Sharing just in case the vet gave her a shot of it. Kim

[SasAndYunah]

Awwwwww Marianne, so sorry this is happening :(

What I know about incontinence is the follwing.

First one needs to distinguish between neurological and non neurological incontinence. In the case of neurological incontinence there are most often other neurological symptoms such as parese or ataxia. If this is not the case then one has to differentiate between "unaware" and "aware" incontinence. The moment the dog is incontent and not assuming the peeing position, the incontinence is "unaware"..

In Peg's case it sounds like it is a non neurological, unaware incontinence.

The most common reasons for this type of incontinence are partial obstruction of the urinary tract caused for instance by stones or a tumor, incompetence of the sphincter mechanism (the muscle that closes the bladder) very common is spayed females of the larger breeds (and with a higher risk when they are overweigth) and with this type of incontinence it's "the rule" they leak especially while asleep or in a resting position (not while walking for example)

So all in all, it sounds as if Peg could be suffering from "old women's" incontinence :)

But this is really all I know about the subject. Your vet will be able to tell you a lot more tomorrow...

Wishing you all the best,

Sas and Mhina :)

[labblab]

Thanks so much, everybody, for your thoughts and well wishes. This has surely been a strange afternoon! After an hour of seemingly total incontinence, Peg has now been OK for the last couple of hours. :confused:

I got home from Petsmart with some diapers, but so far, I haven't needed to put them on. You are right, Sas, it did seem to be non-neurological, unaware leaking. But for the last couple of hours, I have been turning her outside frequently, where she has peed every time. Knock on wood, no more leaking inside the house for the time being. She has really been peeing up a storm ever since the vet visit, which I attributed to the injection. So maybe this incontinence is also connected, too -- some kind of delayed reaction. I guess we'll just have to see, especially overnight.

Thanks again for your replies,
Marianne

[mypuppy]

Dearest Marianne,

I'm so sorry Peg is going through a rough patch, but glad it seems to have relieved a bit. I hope it was just one of those fluke things, and you can move on. And I know what you mean when you say "you are beside yourself" because your Peg has never done that since being a puppy. That's exactly how I felt when I woke up to Princess's pee on the carpet which sent us off to the cushings dx.

Please let us know how she gets on tonight. Feel better Peg.:)

With much love, xo Jeanette

[k9diabetes]

Marianne,

Sorry to hear about this problem with Peg! And very glad that it seems to be subsiding on its own.

Jack was extremely sensitive to prednisone and even on a small dose he had to potty constantly - every half hour or so. And he leaked in his sleep as well.

Hope it was "just" a steroid injection.

Natalie

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

I dont have much to add except it seems reasonable to link it to the shot Peg received.

I hope the vet can share some light on things this morning and that it is a temporary situation.

Hugs to you and Peg ((((Hugs))))))


love,
addy

[labblab]

Well, thank goodness, no more leaking since that weird one-hour interval yesterday!! So for the time being, I'm going to assume it was the injection and just move onward.

Peg's paw also continues to improve, so that's a big relief, too. She is such a GOOD girl whenever it comes to treatment. She lets us put in eyedrops and eardrops, and has been so patient with the paw soaking. I put the solution in a plastic ziplock bag, and then get her to do a long sit/stay and put her paw inside the bag -- kind of like a plastic bootie. We have to leave it there for five minutes. If it was Luna, there's no way we could even get her paw in the baggie in the first place! But Peg is such a good girl. I hate it that she has had so many problems during this past year, she is such a sweetheart.

Hopefully, I can end up changing the title of this thread soon to something else much more pleasant!! :o

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Awwww Marianne,

So, so glad to hear sweet Peg has not had any more leaking episodes. That is always a plus...Yayyyy! I was about to say the reason Peg is so great at letting you do anything to her which most dogs would run for the hills:D is because she is a lab....lol, but then that theory went out the window when you mentioned Luna is the total opposite:eek: Oh well, as your Peg, my sweet Princess is the very same way. You can do just about everything and she will not bat an eyelash:), wait! do they have eyelashes:D Peg and Princess should meet one day, they'd get on well...

And yes, hopefully you can edit your thread title very very soon. Prayers and love.

xo Jeanette

[SasAndYunah]

Glad to hear it is most likely just a side effect from the meds, that's always the best scenario :) It almost seems as if the sweetest ones have to endure the most... I remember when Yunah had injured her front paw, I had to soak that paw in a Betadine solution, 3 times a day, she was just so good about it :)

Give Peg, Luna and yourself a big hug from us,

Sas and Mhina :)

[Harley PoMMom]

I, too, am glad to hear that the leaking was an isolated incident probably caused by the shot. Sending huge hugs to you all.

[Squirt's Mom]

I hope that was the first and last episode she has! Glad to hear things seem to be on the way up!

Hugs,
Leslie

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

I was just wondering how Peg is doing. Is her foot better?

When I was a little girl my maternal grandmother (the love of my life then) had a small black and white spaniel named "Peggy". So I have a special fondness for "Pegs". The Pegs I have met so far are usually very, very sweet.:D:D:D:D

Hoping things are better for sweet Peg and for you.

love,
addy

[labblab]

Addy, thank you so much for asking! I am happy to report that Peg's paw is basically all healed, and the incontinence has not reared its ugly head again. So I am getting ready to return the package of diapers to Petsmart. :o

I am so relieved for my sweet girl. She definitely deserved a break, and that's just what she's gotten this time around. :)

Once again, we really appreciate you asking about us.

Marianne

[busyman370]

Jumping in late, but for what it's worth, my first impression was that it was the shot, and going by the progression of your posts that followed it, now I really think it was the shot.

It now looks like it's all yesterday's news now. Glad all is going well.

Fred.

[labblab]

Well, it's exactly two weeks since our incontinence scare. Peg's paw healed nicely, and all has been good. I'm sitting at the table reading the Sunday paper and hear "slurp, slurp, slurp" (Addy, I know you can sympathize with me here...:( :o). I look over, and there's the same paw, denuded again in exactly the same spot. But at least not yet raw and oozing! OMG! What is the deal with that paw???? She hasn't even been itching much lately, and this is the time of year when her allergies usually start letting up.

So we've just spent five minutes in the Blue Soak, and the sock is back on her foot. Unfortunately, we have to go to a luncheon later today and it's a toss-up whether or not to leave the sock on. It'll undoubtedly come off before we get home, and if either Peg or Luna swallows the sock, that'll be even worse than an infected paw...(Debbie, I know you can relate to THAT issue!). I guess I'm gonna have to look into a cone for her. I hate those awful rigid ones. Has anybody had good luck with one of the softer ones?

Oh, my sweet Peg. Never a dull moment! :rolleyes: :o

Marianne

[lulusmom]

Hi Marianne,

Knowing you the way I do, I'm sure you've already researched paw licking to the nth degree but for those who may not have found a pretty informative site, I'm providing a link below. This site has information from a compilation of data amassed from 7,000 owners of paw licking dogs. That's a pretty good database.

I thought it was interesting that Labs are not on the list of breeds prone to allergies but they are at the top of list of breeds who just love to lick and second on the list of breeds who exhibit obsessive compulsive behavior in the form of paw licking. I've had dogs who have licked one foot and some who licked all four and I can't say that I ever figured out why. I do remember in all my reading that if a dog licks only one foot, it's usually a psychological thing.

My brother took in his son's huge black lab because nobody paid any attention to him. He languished in the backyard, usually laying half in and half out of his doghouse. He licked one of his front feet until it bled and there was no fur left on it. I think loneliness and boredom was the causative factor because once he settled in with my bro, got regular exercise and lots of loving, he seemed to forget that he even had a foot. :D If only every paw licker was such an easy fix.

I usually don't comment about paw licking because, like I mentioned previously, I've never been able to figure out why any of my dogs do it so I don't suspect I'd be any help to those here who are dealing with it. However, I thought I'd share an informative site, as well as my brother's experience with a Lab.

http://www.pawlicking.com/pawlickingbybreed.html

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

I can totally sympathize. It is so frustrating. If it were not for all of you I think I would lose it. Zoe has been better, she is back to how she used to chew on her paws not doing it every waking moment. Of course, as you know, now her eyes are bad, it's like sure, why not?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Anyway, I did some research and ended up with the Comfy Cone

http://www.petco.com/product/110060/All-Four-Paws-Tan-Comfy-Cone.aspx

I read the inflatable cones had some problems. The problem with the Comfy Cone is they have no peripheral vision and it is a bit heavy ( so Zoe gets hot in hers). But it did help. I did not leave it on when she was alone with Koko as I was afraid Koko would be up to no good.:(:(:(

As soon as she started chewing I would put the cone on. When she was calm I would take it off. If she started chewing again, I put it back on. Sometimes I would leave it open on the floor next to her as a reminder not to chew.

It took a long time for her to get the message I had to grin and bear it and hubby lost all patience.

We don't use it nearly as often as we did in the beginning.

They have a video on their website.

((((Hugs))))))

love,
addy

[labblab]

Glynda and Addy, thank you both. Glynda, that's a great website and no, I actually hadn't done much researching because I was just assuming that this has to do with Peg's allergies :o. But maybe not. I will look through all the info there in detail. And I see that they are also mentioning the socks on the "suspenders" -- Addy, I think you told me about them before. That might be a better solution than the cone, but I appreciate the info about the cone, too. Because if we end up going with a cone, I think I'll give this Comfy Cone a try.

Addy already knows this from conversations she and I have had, but my previous experience with licking was with Barkis before he was diagnosed with Cushing's. He licked his paws (and our bare skin) incessantly!!! But once we started on the trilostane, it was like a light switch got flipped and he totally stopped. So that's what I've been hoping with Zoe -- that maybe she'll get calmed down, too, as her cortisol lowers.

With Peg, this is kind of a new issue. She's exhibited allergies since she was 3 months old, and that has always involved some degree of licking and chewing on herself. But this devotion to her one paw is new for us. Even though we haven't seen any evidence of it, maybe a bug bite or injury did somehow start it off. Regardless, I'm anxious to read through the info on that website. Thank you, guys.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Marianne, glad that Peg is doing better, except for the recent paw licking and Glynda, that was an interesting site. Our Rozee is a paw licker but luckily I was able to say No Lick and she would stop, it took some training but it did work. Okay sometimes she would go and hide out of site and continue licking :p . Now that she is deaf, I can just point to her and she will stop. We never figured out why :confused:, she has done it since she was a puppy and absolutely hates her lower legs and paws even being touched. Being her groomer, it's always been a major struggle and has been that way since she was 8 weeks old :( Now she just recently decided to start licking the carpet and the couch :confused:. She's pretty senior now so I just go and pick her up and hold her to get her mind off of it.

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm glad Peg is feeling better but wish I had some help to offer with the licking. Squirt will lick her front paw when she is tired or nervous but when I say, "enough", she stops. It seems to comfort her so I have always let her lick for a minute then stop her. I think it is psychological, a way of soothing herself and relaxing. But she has never shown an obsession with it and I feel for you all who deal with that.

Brick is a licker but not on himself. He just licks - the walls, the floor, the furniture, cabinets...if it has a surface, it gets licked. :p So I am extremely cautious with what I use to clean; vinegar doesn't seem to phase him in the least! :D

I am reading along and sending positive thoughts even tho I don't post often.

Hugs,
Leslie

[SasAndYunah]

Awwww poor Peg and poor you...

Did Peg by any chance recently finished her antibiotics? And that that's the reason the itching started again? (infection not fully cured yet, perhaps?) Sometimes there can be a "foreign object" that entered the leg (through the foot) like a single grass seed...which can be terribly hard to find and diagnose.

Sending you all our best and hugs,

Sas and Mhina :)

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

Just stopping by to mention, Zoe almost has totally stopped chewing her paws the last two days. I am afraid to even say that as she will probably start up again to prove me wrong. :rolleyes:;)

I can't help but wonder if it was her eyes bothering her so much that she chewed her paws. She is still licking us.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I cant know for sure, but seemed odd so I thought I would mention it to you in case it may give you a clue for Peg.

love ya,
addy

[labblab]

Oh Addy, that's great news (and NO, we are NOT going to jinx things by talking about it!!!!). :) :) Maybe Zoe is like Barkis was, and this means her cortisol is coming down! That would be super on both counts. ;)

Sas, thanks for your suggestion about the antibiotics. Peg was on a ten-day course that finished a week ago. So I'll keep that in mind as a possibility. And John and Leslie, I very much appreciate your thoughts, too.

One other thing -- we did give the girls a bath on Saturday afternoon (before Peg woke up licking on Sunday morning). We use a special non-soap aloe/oatmeal cleanser, but maybe she's still sensitive to it regardless. As I think about it, she did seem to do a bit more gnawing on herself after her last bath. So maybe that is a trigger. She's been very good about keeping her sock on, and the paw isn't any worse. But I've been catching her licking her legs and gnawing on her flanks, too. I think I will look for a different shampoo to use for the next bath!

Addy, fingers crossed for Miss Zoe!!!!

[Altira]

How is our Sweet Peg now?

[addy]

Dang, Marianne, I had to go back a bit to find this thread;);)

My reason for looking is to say:


Happy Thanksgiving from your loving K9 Cush family



I hope Peg is fine and looking forward to some turkey:D:D:D:D:D

[labblab]

Addy, you are so sweet, and Miss Peglet and I both appreciate your kind thoughts SOOOOOOOO much!!!!! Thankfully, she has been doing really well, although her seasonal allergies are kicking up again -- right on schedule :o. But so far, nothing has gotten out of hand. And both she and Luna are loving the cooler temps and falling leaves -- makes it so much more fun to chase the squirrels. :D :D

Thanks so much for checking on us. We'll be staying home for Thanksgiving, so both girls will definitely have the chance to feast on a bit of turkey themselves.

All best wishes to you and all your loved ones, too, Addy. You truly deserve a glorious holiday yourself!!

With hugs and best wishes,
Marianne

[mypuppy]

Awwwww, home for the holiday with mom, dad, turkey and squirrels--it doesn't get any better than that:)

From our home to yours, have a wonderful Turkey day Marianne, Peg, Luna and family.

we love you.
Xo Jeanette and my sweet Princess

[labblab]

Well, when I came down the stairs this morning I heard the fateful "slurp, slurp, slurp" coming from Peg's direction on the couch :o. Yup, she's got another sore started on her front wrist again. So she's back to being wrapped up in her sock and her purple surgical tape (the purple tape from Petsmart looks ever so much more festive than the white human tape from the drugstore... ;) :D).

But my mom is here with us for the holiday, so that means there'll be three of us to keep an eye on her. So hopefully it won't get out of hand so badly this time.

And aside from that, I have so many good things to be grateful for. So my one good thing already today is that my elderly mom IS here with us to celebrate another Christmas and my two furbabies have been circling us with wagging tails and balls in their mouths, anxious for hubby and me to put on our coats and head out for "our" walk.

I love all you guys, and I am so grateful to be a member of this family. :)

Marianne

[frijole]

Ah, sending love to Peg and quick healing.... Marianne - So glad your mom is there with you for the holidays and missed the huge storm in IA!!! :eek: Lots of people stranded still there. Anyway... we love you too. Enjoy the holiday and time with your family. Kim

[mytil]

Glad to hear your Mom is with you!!!! Always my best to your gang. Give Peg smoochies from me and my girls and holiday hugs to you, your Mom and hubby!

T.

[molly muffin]

Well, drat Peg! No more licks! That is so great that your mom is there with you Marianne. We love you too!!! Have some great walks and enjoy what I hope is a lovely day!

Happy Holidays,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

Merry Christmas to you and yours. I am so happy your mom is with you. :D:D:D:D:D:D

I am sure Peg looks very festive in her white and purple. Allergies are so darn hard.:mad: For some reason Zoe has totally stopped chewing on her paws. I mean totally, I dont even understand it but I will take it. I am sending Santa my Christmas list and near the top is for Peg to not have to slurp;);););)


Love you and yours

[mypuppy]

Awwww, poor Peg, but she is so very blessed to have such a wonderful, loving mom, dad and grandma to watch over her.

Feel better real soon, and we are sending you our warmest and loving best wishes for a very Merry Christmas. And Marianne, we are just as blessed to have you as part of our family here on the forum--we couldnt do this without you.

Love you much.

Tight hugs, Jeanette and my sweet girl and family

[Bailey's Mom]

Merry Christmas and the happiest of New Years!!!!!!!
May all of your Christmas wishes come true...
May we all stay away from any and all cliffs,
Peace and Joy to all!
-Susan

[cheydogger]

Marianne-

Sorry to hear Peg has had an off and on paw issue. Phooey!!! So glad you have so much love surrounding you this Christmas. Moms and fur babies are the best:D:D

Merry Christmas. Thank you for all of your help these last two months.

Hug,

Ro and Chey

[molly muffin]

Merry Christmas! Hope you have a safe and wonderful holiday :)
Thanks for everything you do for all of us.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

A big thank you from me as well Marianne for all of the kindness and support you have shown Jasper and I. I hope Peg's paw is feeling better and that you have a wonderful day with your family. Merry Christmas!

Love and hugs,

Tina, Jasper and Shelby

[Trish]

Dear Marianne - Merry Christmas to you and Peg and the rest of your family, you are most definitely one of the K9 treasures with all you do for us. I thank you and sending good wishes your way for 2013
Trish and Flynn xx

[labblab]

First off, I want to send out a belated "Thank You" for all our holiday greetings! They were greatly appreciated by both Peg and me! :)

Secondly, I have a question about probiotics and antibiotics. Luna and Peg were rough-housing this morning and Peg's dewclaw was partially ripped out when she took a tumble. :eek: Lots of blood and very painful for the poor girl. :( :(

I took her in to the vet who finished removing the claw itself, and sent us home with a pressure bandage and a week's worth of antiobiotic (simplicef). Ever since her pancreatitis attacks, I've been giving her daily probiotics. But I forgot to ask the vet whether there's any issue with continuing them while she's taking the simplicef. I can't imagine why there'd be a problem, but thought I'd ask you guys, just in case.

Marianne

[lulusmom]

Hi Marianne,

Antibiotics wipe out the good bacteria with the bad so having Peg on probiotics is a really good thing, especially now. I always add a little yoghurt to my dogs' food when any of them is on an antibiotic. In my house, antibiotics are frequent.

[labblab]

Thanks, Glynda. That's what I was thinking, too, but it helps to have your confirmation!

[Harley PoMMom]

antibiotics and probiotics that consist of live bacteria should be taken at least 2 hours apart. This time gap prevents probiotics from interfering with the actions of antibiotics.



http://www.livestrong.com/article/411259-when-should-probiotics-be-taken-with-antibiotics/

So sorry to hear about Peg and hoping she is feeling much better real soon.

[labblab]

Thanks, Lori! I give her the probiotic with breakfast, so I'll give her the antibiotic with dinner. That way, they'll be far removed in time.

I just feel so bad for Peg. She's only 8, but we already see aging issues. She's just not anywhere near as agile as she used to be, and we think she has some arthritis setting in. Luna is younger and so much quicker and energetic, and Luna is always goading Peg into fake fights and racing around. Luna can handle the rough-housing, but Peg trips and falls down a lot when they're playing around. Could be the phenobarb affecting her balance and coordination a bit. Anyway, I'm always holding my breath when they start in on a game like that, for fear Peg will hurt herself. And today she did. :(

But it could have been a lot worse, that's for sure. No broken bones or torn ligaments. I can tell her leg hurts like heck, though. And no surprise, considering how it would feel to me if I had my fingernail ripped off. :eek:

[addy]

Awww, Marianne, I know how you feel for that is what happens with Zoe and Koko and I have to break it up sometimes. Zoe usually starts it too.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

It is hard because you want them to be able to be a dog but you don't want them to get hurt. I hope Peg is better today. Please give her some hugs for me and kisses on the nose too.:):):)

[molly muffin]

Hope Peg is feeling better today. I'm sure that is really painful!

I didn't know that about the antibiotics and probiotic 2 hours apart, but it does make sense. Not sure that usually did that though, so maybe why it took longer to clear up. Good idea doing one in the morning and one in the evening.

hugs,
Sharlene

[labblab]

Thanks so much for the well wishes, ladies. :)

Poor Peglet's paw is really tender and she's limping around, and no wonder. That broken shaft must hurt like the dickens.

I was told we could take the pressure bandage off today, but when I tried to unwind it this morning, the caked blood underneath was making it stick. Since we have to leave her alone for a few hours around lunchtime, I think it's probably best to just go ahead and leave it, anyway, until we're back. Lick queen that she is, I'm sure she'll really go after it once the bandage is off. Undoubtedly I'll have to rig up her sock again. :( And I hope the antibiotic doesn't mess up her intestines -- we'd been doing so good with that recently. I'll definitely keep up the probiotic.

And you're so right, Addy, it's so hard to find the right balance. I am SOOOOOO overprotective when it comes to the girls, and especially Peg. I usually try to break up their play fights when I can, and then feel guilty that I'm not letting them just enjoy life. But yesterday, they were too far away from me for me to get to them. I just cringed because they were racing up and down this rocky hillside. I was just praying for Peg to stay on her feet, but then she tripped and rolled. I was sick that she'd broken her leg or something, so I'll take the broken claw a hundred times over!

Anyway, I'm sure the vet's office was glad to see us -- it had been at least a couple of weeks since I'd made my regular deposit over there. We deserve our own bench with a nameplate at this point. :rolleyes:

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, I can imagine how scary it was to see her rolling down that hill! :eek: I wouldn't have had enough sense not to scramble up the rocks trying to stop her fall. :rolleyes::o I can also imagine your relief to see no broken legs. ~~whew~~

I hope she doesn't have any upsets with the meds and is back in full form in no time.

Hugs and gentle belly rubs!
Leslie

[labblab]

When they start chasing and fighting on level ground, I've learned to plant myself in one spot and just YELL to try to break it up. Early on, I'd run toward them. But one time, Peg veered into me, full tilt, all 80 pounds, and I went flying myself. Hit the ground so hard I was afraid I was the one who'd broken something. :eek:

So now I mainly just holler like a banshee from the sidelines to try to break up their concentration. :o

[molly muffin]

Yikes an 80lb bulldozer!!! I'd yell too. :) :)

[addy]

Thank goodness I only have to worry about a seventeen pounder:D

That would be like getting banged by one of the Big Dogs with Tails (as we call them at the office) Sometimes when I am walking through the factory and Lucy is playful with Rocky they come running at me at full speed and Rocky's a 140 pound Mastiff. I usually yell "DOGS!TREATS!" to side line those two:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Feel better real soon Peg.

[mypuppy]

Hello Friend,

So sorry about Peg--hate it when stuff like that happens to our babies. I have no fear she iis being taken care of by one of the best moms ever and will be feeling 100 percent in no time.

For now auntie J. And cousin Princess are sending all our love and tight hugs.

We love you all.

Xo Jeanette and my girl

[Fellasmom]

Hi Marianne
I wanted to stay thanks for all your support and kindness.I'm still struggling with losing my little guy but I honestly couldn't have gotton thru it without of all you.I'm just beginning to navigate around these threads and I have so many more to thank!I wasn't sure if this was the place to write this but I did enjoy reading about your Peg and hope she is feeling better!It's incredible that our love for our babies has brought us all here and I'm so thankful for all of you.I loved your morning duty "check in" and it helped me tremendously.So thankful to have found you and look forward to hearing more about your Peg!
Love,
Patty

[Fellasmom]

Hi Marianne
Happy Belated Mothers day-hope you had a good one.Was gone for a few days in NY and just wanted to thank you for your info on the Doxy.I expected to have quite the challenge finding it and Sharlene and Mel were looking for it online for me,so I was a bit surprised when I found it first try.So relieved however.

And,it does break my heart to read about others losing their babies as the blame,pain and loss can be so unbearable.I usually write something when I'm having a good "moment".Next day,I find myself sobbing and thinking-what was I thinking offering comfort to someone else,I'm a mess!!:).The tears have slowed down but it's so hard to accept that he is gone.Life is so different without him but I wouldn't trade those 10 1/2 yrs for anything!Thanks for listening and being there for us.I love being here with all of you.
Love and hugs
Patty

[labblab]

Dear Patty,

Thanks so much for your Mother's Day greeting -- I really appreciated it very much!

I'm sorry, though, that I have a new entry for Peg's thread this morning that isn't so cheery. She barfed four times yesterday, and I'm sitting on pins and needles today hoping that it was just too much rabbit poop, or grass, or some other garbage she scavenged...:o

With her, it could be nothing or it could be pancreatitis again. Or it could even be seizure issues again. Or it could be because we've had to change her food during this Natura recall. We'd had such a long break since she'd thrown up at all. But a couple of times recently, I've gotten up in the morning or come home to find an area or two of spit-up -- like back in the old days before the phenobarb and before her acute pancreatitis. I just kinda put it out of my mind. And then yesterday, Yikes. Just like old times again. :( :(

She's due for her six-month bloodwork and phenobarb level check, so I guess we'll be back in the vet's office this week. Hopefully she'll quiet down today, though, so it won't have to be urgent. She kept her morning phenobarb down OK, and I've just now given her some chicken and rice. So we'll see. Yesterday she didn't barf until several hours after her meals.

Anyway, after a very short night of little sleep (the last barfing episode was after midnight :eek:), I'm back in full fret mode once again. It made me realize what a gift these last few months have been for me -- and also reminded me how hard it is for each of you who are shouldering worry about your babies every single day. I hadn't really forgotten how it feels, of course, but had just pushed the memory aside for a little while. My hat is off to you all for your courage and your patience.

In the meantime, hopefully Ms. Peg is just giving me a little nudge and nothing more.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, I hope she just got a bad batch of rabbit poop and will be settled down very soon. I know how scary that is when our minds run loose with the "what ifs". Please let us know how she is today.

Hugs,
Leslie

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
So sorry to hear about Pegs vomiting episodes.:( Let's hope that whatever it was just blows through and is gone. :)I know that full fret mode so very well. It's the what-ifs that goes through your mind, making it hard to think about anything else, while living on pins and needles waiting for something else to happen. Praying that all goes well for you and your sweet Peg. Please check back in later and let us know how she's doing.
Sending tons of hugs,
Kathy

[molly muffin]

Awww Peg. Poor thing. Hopefully it's just an episode of getting into something that she shouldn't have and it's caused an upset tummy. I know it doesn't take much to go from the smooth sailing mode to all out worry. You'll probably feel better once you can get the testing out of the way.

hugs, Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Marianne, So sorry that Ms Peg is not feeling well and I do hope she is feeling much better soon.

Hopefully it was just something, like rabbit poop, and the vomiting will stop. I see my furbabies eying that rabbit poop and I have to sway them away but sometimes they are much faster than me and get some. :eek:

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

[addy]

Thinking if you and sweet Peg and hoping it is just an upset tummy and she is back to feeling better soon.

Big hugs ((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))

I dont think we ever get over the hyper alert worry. It is probably a life time condition;)

[Roxee's Dad]

Oh Marianne, so sorry to read this, keeping everything fingers and paws crossed that it all turns out okay.

[labblab]

I dont think we ever get over the hyper alert worry. It is probably a life time condition;)
Oh Addy, ain't that the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :rolleyes: ;)

OK, quick update: so far, so good! I gave her two smaller chicken/rice meals this morning, and just now she lapped up the first of her two evening meals. Thank goodness she loves the stuff and thinks she is getting a special treat.

No upchucking so far today, and poops are normal. <WHEW>

I am not allowing her free rein out in the yard, but am following her around when she goes out to potty to make sure she doesn't grab more of those luscious rabbit nuggets. :cool:

As a sidebar, she's been blowing her coat in clouds of hair over the last couple of weeks. She always sheds in cycles, but this is by far the most hair that she's ever lost at one time. I'm surprised there's any hair left. So all the more reason to have her labwork checked, no matter what. Never a dull moment. :eek:

Thank you guys, so much for your replies. I appreciate them all!!!!!! Hopefully it'll stay quiet around here this evening and we can all get some better sleep.

[addy]

Crossing all our fingers and paws it continues. Dang those bunnies anyway. Hubby had to fish one out of the pool the other day:rolleyes: Why do dogs think bunny poops are peanut cocktails anyway? They sure all seem to have a taste for it.:rolleyes:

Too bad about the California Natural. I buy it for our work dog Rocky. I give him pieces as a treat throughout the day. I liked the big bites as they were the perfect size for him. He's about 140 pound South African Mastiff.:D:D:D:D

Hope you have a wonderful sleep and Peg catches some good snoozes as well.

I'm sending positive vibes:):):)

[Tina]

Oh Marianne, so glad to read that there has been no further vomiting. I am hoping that this continued through the rest of Sunday and that Peg is feeling better. Those dastardly rabbit pellets, Jasper thinks they are a delicacy too! I often have to take him on a leash in the yard. Even if I follow him around, he can still be too quick for me and grab some. Ick!! Yes, it sure doesn't take much at all for that hyper worry to come rushing back. I hope you all are snoozing comfortably now. Keeping our fingers and paws crossed here also. :)

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[frijole]

Late seeing this - hoping she's feeling better today and it is all over. xoxo Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

How is Peg this morning?

[mytil]

I surely am glad no more spit up episodes with your sweet Peg. Sorry I missed this yesterday my friend.

I know it sounds gross, but was there anything in her spit up or was it mostly bile like? I ask this because every now and then I find something that looks like a big hairball and it is Cyda spitting up all the fur she ingests (I thought to myself - who brought the cat in).

My vet some dogs do this and it can certainly upset their tummies, especially if there is something on her coat she may be allergic to.

Hope she is doing better this morning and you at least had some sleep.
T.

[labblab]

Thanks everybody -- so far your well wishes are working!

Peg just finished her first little breakfast of chicken/rice with a some regular food mixed back in. And everything was good when I got up this morning -- thankfully no spots of "ick" from overnight. Unless anything changes, I think I will wait until tomorrow or Thursday to take her in for her bloodwork. Our vet doesn't work on Wednesdays and I try to avoid Mondays because the office is always more crowded right after the weekend. Plus, I'd like to have her back on her usual food for the testing just so everything is as consistent as possible.

Yeah, Addy, I am hoping that Natura can get over the hump with their new production safeguards so that we can return to the California Natural. It's funny because I have had so many people warn me about CN ever since the Procter & Gamble buy-out, but it was the higher-end grainfree kibbles that Peg could not tolerate in the past. She had been rock-solid the whole time she was on the CN and I never saw any visual inconsistencies in the product. When they do return to normal production, I think I will shift her to the Senior food from the Lowfat, though. I'd like her to be getting a bit more protein and the fat content is not that much higher.

But first things first, and we'll see how her labs look. I'm always really anxious to see those liver levels cuz of the possible effects of the phenobarb. Yikes, I hadn't even thought about that in terms of the vomiting...one more thing to fret over! :o

Marianne

P.S. Terry, just saw your note, and Peg's first episode definitely had a bunch of hair in it (which is not a surprise given how bad she is shedding!) The rest were a combo of food and grass. She always nibbles at grass a bit, but I had noticed her eating more. Now whether that was the cause or the result of her tummy upset, I do not know...

[Altira]

I'm sad when you're sad. 8::: thinking of you!
Hugs.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
Thanks for filling us in this morning. :) I am thrilled to hear that Peg is continuing to do well with no further vomiting.:D Fretting just goes with the territory, I'm afraid.:o I am hoping that she does well in her tests and her adjustment back to her regular food goes smoothly. Please keep us informed, because we care.
Big hugs,
Kathy

[labblab]

Well, we're off to the vet in about fifteen minutes. I had planned to take Peg in today anyway, but she just barfed again about an hour ago. :(

She had done fine since Saturday, but that was when I was feeding her the chicken and rice. I started transitioning her last night, and her breakfast was all regular food again. So maybe the new food really is the problem. Anyway, it'll be good to get the labwork done. She had her phenobarb at 8:00, so I think we're still OK to have her level tested since it should have been absorbed well before she vomited. At least, I hope so.

I'm definitely going to search for some SEB locally. I figure it can't hurt to have some on hand, no matter what's going on...

[Budsters Mom]

Ah Marianne,
I am so sorry that the vomiting came back. It does sound like it could be related to the food, but as you know, it's best to get it checked out. No one knows that better than you do.;) We all just came back from accompanying Letti on Simba's appointment, so we're all ready to jump in with you. I hope they have a big waiting room!;) I know that you are worried. We are here with you through thick and thin. You couldn't get rid of us if you tried, because we would hunt you down!:D You don't mess with angels on a mission!:)
Big hugs and a belly rub for Peg.:)
Kathy

PS...SLB has made Buddy's life so much easier.:)

[addy]

Dang, I thought we were out of the woods. It does sound like it could be the new food and who knows when the Calif Natural will be back on the market.

Well, we will just wait for your next report.

Hugs and extra pats to Peg

[Trixie]

Hope Peg gets a good report from the vet Marianne. Those barfing episodes always create so much worry for us!! Hoping it's just the food issue or some nugget from the yard that shouldn't have been eaten.
Barbara

[Squirt's Mom]

Please let us know what you learn, Marianne. I hope it isn't the pancreas again. :(

[Roxee's Dad]

Keeping all fingers and paws crossed here.

[labblab]

Thanks y'all for the well wishes!

We're back, and on the outside everything looks OK. So we'll await the bloodwork. Neither my vet nor I are happy about the vomiting, though, because you always worry about liver/kidney/pancreas issues with a dog taking phenobarb and with Peg's history of GI problems. We'll have the bloodwork back on Thursday.

In the meantime, he told me to put her back solely on the chicken/rice for 48 hours, and then if she stays OK, to transition more slowly back to the real food. I really did know better, myself, than to change her back so abruptly. So that was a big goof on my part. :o

And we're gonna do five days of metronidazole which I am a little nervous about because phenobarb interacts with it. But he says that it is a short, rather low dose and he thinks the anti-inflammatory/antibiotic properties are important for her right now. So we'll give it a go, at least until the bloodwork comes in on Thursday morning. He also gave me some prilosec to give her at night, at least until I track down the SEB. We've talked about the bark in the past and he is totally fine with it once I can get some.

<Big Sigh>

Peg is just such a sweetheart and is always so good for them at the vet. She has been poked and prodded so much, but she always stays so sweet and trusting. She is such a good girl. I hate it that she has these problems. But hopefully this is nothing but gastritis and she'll perk back up quickly.

Now, exactly how many hours (minutes, seconds) is it until Thursday morning....? :o :rolleyes:

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
Thanks for the update on Peg. Yes, Thursday is a long time to wait, so we will all do it together.:) If you have any trouble sleeping, Kim is really good at lullabies.;) Buddy is very sweet and gentle with everyone, even the vet. He is just like Peg. He'll let them do anything to him without as much as a whimper. It does pull at your heart to see such sweet babes hurting, but it will all get sorted out soon.I just heard from the neurosurgeon via Buddy's vet, so I'm off to update his thread. Please let us all know when you hear anything.
Big Hugs and pats for Peg,
Kathy

[molly muffin]

Oh gee, sorry that Peg threw up again and had to head off to the vets. Hopefully this is a food issue, in that her stomach just doesn't care for it. Could be anything in it that bothers her too. It's hard when you have to make all these guess and eliminate this and that to get to the bottom. Well, food is better than anything else being wrong. You're great with her Marianne.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[frijole]

Sending love and thinking of you both. Fingers crossed the tummy settles down. I remember when I was cooking for Annie - she had chicken and rice and I had a sandwich for dinner. LOL Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin',

I hope you and Peg had a good night and have a great day ahead. Is it Thurs. yet? ;)

[Budsters Mom]

Only one more day to go. You will make it!:) Hope Peg's doing well and you were able to rest last night.
Hugs,
Kathy

[labblab]

Boy, amazing how stress works its way even into your unconscious :o. I had a horrible nightmare last night that I had boarded the girls somewhere and they had gotten loose and couldn't be found!! :eek:

I was so happy when I woke up and they were both waiting for me downstairs :). Peg didn't seem too perky, though. Although that may just be because I am monitoring her every move, of course. :rolleyes:

She's had her multiple little breakfasts and her morning meds, though. And I just found a place locally that has the SEB powder. YAY!!!!!!!! So I'm heading off right after I finish this note.

Kathy, what formula are you using for mixing and giving the SEB to Buddy? I'll have to give it to Peg at times other than her meals so as not to interfere with her meds.

Marianne

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne, I use the long brew method from the website below.:)
The directions instruct to simmer from 10 to 20 minutes. I simmer for 15 minutes. It says to use 8 to 12 ounces of water. I used 10. That seems to be a good consistency that is working well for us.;) Dosage information per weight is also on that page.;) Yes, SEB Must be given at least two hours before or after any medication, Because it can interfere with the absorption of those medications. I am dealing with that too. Right now, since it's summer break, it makes it easier for me. Buddy is up to SEB three times per day now. I keep a log of all of Buddy's medications. That helps me to verify that it's time for the SEB. We started very slowly with only one serving due to allergy potential, But thankfully that has not occurred.I hope you're able to find it locally and that it works out well for you.
Kathy

http://www.holvet.net/slippery_soup.html

[labblab]

Great Kathy!!! I'm home with the elm powder and I'm simmering a pot of gruel right now. :) :)

Feelin' optimistic that this will be a big help! ;)

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

I so do hope that the SEB will help with sweet Peg's tummy. Sending soothing, loving, and huge hugs to you both. :)

[Budsters Mom]

Keeping fingers, toes and paws crossed that it works!:)
Kathy

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, I so hope it helps sweet Peg!

[labblab]

Thanks girls! :)

Lori and Leslie, you've been encouraging me to get SEB for ages now so I know you're proud of me that I finally got my act together. Only took me two years to finally hop on board the train! :rolleyes:

[labblab]

Lori, while I'm thinking about it, do you know what the protocol is for a bile acids test? If there's any question about Peg's liver results tomorrow, I'm sure that's where we'll be heading.

[molly muffin]

Yay, you got the SEB! :) Hope that helps Peg's tummy issues.
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne,
The link below explains the protocol of dog bile acid tests.

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/f/FAQ_bileacidtst.htm

Kathy

[labblab]

Thanks, Kathy! It sounds easy enough except for the part about the fatty meal -- that doesn't sound so good for a dog prone to pancreatitis. :eek:

But hopefully this won't be necessary at all cuz Peg's liver results will be just fine (fingers crossed!).

[Budsters Mom]

Yes, I agree with you Marianne. The part about the fatty meal would be risky. :eek: But, we aren't going to go there, are we?;) I prefer to believe that Peg's liver numbers will be just fine.:) Only positive energy will be allowed tonight, so get some rest!:)
Kathy

[Tina]

Marianne, just popping in to let you know that I am thinking about you and Peg this morning. All fingers and paws are crossed here for good results today for your sweet girl.

Hugs from me and Jasper

[labblab]

Thanks again, all. Good news to report -- the blood chemistries and phenobarb level were all fine! :) :) :) :)

Unfortunately, one of the tubes was broken in transit to IDEXX, so we don't have any blood count results :(, but I was most worried about the liver and kidney values so that info is a huge relief. If the vomiting continues, we'll need to go back for another draw to rule out infection, though. And this could still be a bout of pancreatitis since I learned the hard way that all her other labs could be normal even when the special lipase test was way elevated. But basically she is getting the same treatment now as would be the case with pancreatitis.

No more new vomiting, so that is good. I'll keep her exclusively on chicken and rice for at least another day, and then start a slow transition. And then we'll see what happens at that point.

My vet was very happy for me that I finally tracked down the slippery elm. I'm going to take it in to show him on our next visit, and maybe he'll even want to try a sample himself. Peg is due for her first dose of the day shortly. ;)

Thanks for hanging in there with us, angels! :o

[addy]

Drat, broken tubes:(

I sure hope this is not pancreatitis and that the slippery elm helps. I checked my holistic book too regarding the slippery elm, they just mixed it with warm water and said up to 3 times a day.
If I was home with Zoe, I would try it but with all her twice a day drugs I just don't have a two hour window once a day let alone three times a day. So I am hoping it is the magic cure for sweet Peg.

We are all hoping to hear good news.

[Squirt's Mom]

I so glad the report you got is good! That is a huge relief! I hope the chicken and rice and SEB keeps her on track and she is back to her normal happy self very, very soon.

[Simba's Mom]

Just sending hugs to you and your sweet Peg, hope she's gaining everyday!!

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne,
Bummer about the test tube, but good news overall.:DHow is Peg doing with the SEB? Are you mixing it with something to make it more palatable? Is she doing okay otherwise? How is her energy level? Since starting SEB, Buddy no longer needs Pepcid AC or Benadryl. The only meds he is taking now is his trilostane/prednisone combo. Remember to slooooooooowly transition Peg back to her regular food.;) Great job mom!:D
Big hugs,
Kathy

[Roxee's Dad]

Great news so far Marianne... Keeping everything crossed that the good news continues.

[molly muffin]

That is really good news about the liver and kidney's not being an issue.
Good plan to slowly transition her and if it looks dicey, head back to the chicken and rice.
Glad things are going well so far

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Mufin

[labblab]

Yay, still doing good so far today. She's still having straight chick/rice tonight. I may go ahead and start mixing in a few kibbles again tomorrow, but I'll transition much more slowly this time around. :o

I'm still following her around in the yard because she acts like she'd continue to grab some grass if she could, and that's what has prompted the previous up-chucks. So I still don't know if that's the chicken or the egg... And I'm definitely keeping her away from the rabbit pellets.

Kathy, I'm mixing the SEB gruel in with a spoonful of mooshy rice and she laps it right up. I am so lucky with both girls that unless they are really, really sick they will eat anything I put in their bowls. I'm able to fit three doses of the SEB around her other meds, but only by giving one dose late in the evening. So I hope I can stay awake long enough to get it in! I totally understand why dosing would be an issue for you, Addy.

I still don't think she's quite as perky as usual, but it's been hotter here the last couple of days, too, and the heat always affects her. So we'll just keep plugging along, and I am so grateful for those good test results. I feel so, so lucky today.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

So glad to hear that Peg is doing much better and hoping she will be her perky self real soon.

Sending you all healing and loving hugs, Lori

[addy]

I hope today dawns a beautiful day with Peg much improved:):)

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
How is Peg doing today? Is her stomach starting to settle? I hope all is well with your girls.:)
Hugs,
Kathy

[Trish]

Sorry to read about Peg's troubles Marianne, hope it has just been a little hiccup and she is on the road to recovery. xxx

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
What is happening with your sweet girl? Is her tummy settling? How is the SEB working out? Please post an update when you get a chance. Big hugs,:)
Kathy

[labblab]

Oh Kathy, thank you for asking again about Peg. I've just now seen what a rough night you and Buddy have been having and I hope that by the time you read this note, things will be better for you.

Thankfully, Peg's tum has stayed settled so far. I am trying to follow your advice and transition slowly back to regular food. We are at half-and-half today. I am also trying to add in a bit of fat by resuming her fish oil. She is still losing hair by the handful and her skin is very itchy, dry and flakey. So I think a week of virtually no fat is catching up with her. I know that extremes either way are not good.

But she seems happy and more perky again, so that is all good news for which I am very grateful!

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne,
I am thrilled that Peg is doing well. :D Happy and perky is bliss!:D
Big hugs,
Kathy

[labblab]

So everything had been going smoothly and it has now been a week since her last vomiting episode. I've been slowly transitioning her back to her regular food over the weekend, and this morning we were up to probably 2/3 her regular food. So she goes out to potty and produces a very large, soft poop. Up to now, all her poops have been just fine -- it was the vomiting that was the issue. But she was pacing around the yard like she was uncomfortable, so I know she must have been having some cramping along with the poop. :(

There are so many variables that I don't know what to point to. I've been giving her the slippery elm daily for a week. Started out with three doses a day, but had backed off to two yesterday. So should I not have backed off, or can slippery elm end up acting like a laxative over time??

Is it the food that is causing her a problem? I had also started back with her fish oil because she is itching the daylights out of herself and her skin is all dry and flaky, but maybe that is too much fat.

Maybe I should take her back to the vet today to repeat the CBC that couldn't be run because of the broken test tube. And also to pick up some of the nasty Rx intestinal food to try for a while? I hate to take her back again today for yet another blood draw if it isn't necessary, but our vet is "off" on Wednesdays and of course Thursday is the holiday. So it's either today or we're on our own until Friday...

For any of you guys who use slippery elm regularly, have you ever known it to have a laxative effect rather than a firming effect on poop?

Marianne

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

I cant help with the slippery elm but I am wondering are there ingredients in the new food that were not in the California Natural? On the surface it seems the food could be suspect. It is always so hard to know what is going on with them when we have to change more than one thing. I did a quick search as I am sure you did and did not find that slippery elm may act like a laxative.

It is always so sad to see a pup suffer because of a food recall.:( That was what started Zoe's journey into colitis originally. I just get so ticked off at the dog food companies.

Sending you hugs and smoochies kisses to Peg.

[Squirt's Mom]

My experiences with SEB have never resulted in diarrhea but I will check my books to see if it does have that possibility. It is possible it was the fish oil - any time I have had to stop giving oils and start them back, I start at a much lower dose than I stopped at. ie - if she was getting 2 tsps daily, when I started it back she would get about 1/2 tsp to start with, building up to the original dose slowly.

Another thought is that the feed may have changed formulas or ingredients - and they do not have to let us know about changes. I would call the company and ask though. ;)

Me? I would be at the vet's asking for labs. SURPRISE! :D

Please let us know how things are going. We are with you, too, darlin' - always just as you are always with us.

Hugs,
Leslie

[Budsters Mom]

Poor Peg.:o SEB is Is used to treat diarrhea and constipation. I googled it thoroughly because of Buddy's allergies, before I attempted it. He is taking it three times per day still. Thankfully it is still working well. Good poops, settled stomach and no diarrhea. I don't think Peg's problems is with the SEB unless she has some kind of sensitivity to it. It is supposed to be easily tolerated. Feel better sweet Peg.
Hugs to you my dear,
Kathy

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, here is what I found in my books -

From Herbs for Pets (Tilford and Wulff) - Common uses - "For diarrhea, enteritis, colitis and irritations fo the stomach, the tannin constituents of slippery elm tighten digestive mucosa to reduce inflammation and inhibit the entrance of excess fluids into the intestines. At the same time, the slippery, oily mucilage constituents of the herb help lubricate the digestive tract to assist in the elimination of waste."

Cautions and Comments: - "With the rare exception of possible allergic reactions slippery elm is generally safe for animals. The outer bark, however, (which shouldn't be in the slippery elm you buy) can cause irritation to the digestive and urinary tracts and may induce abortion in pregnant animals."



From Veterinary Herbal Medicine (Wynne and Fougere) - Clinical Action: - Demulcent, emollient, antitussive, astringent, nutritive, laxative

History and Traditiona Usage: - "(respiratory uses listed)...and inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract, including gastritis, gastric ulcer, colitis, and irritable bowel."

Indications: Inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea, irritable bowel syndrome, and gastrointestinal disease that is fiber responsive; dry ticklish cough; and topically for slow-healing wounds and anal fissures."

Potential Veterinary Indications: Fiber-responsive gastrointestinal problems such as inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea, constipation, and colitis...(lists respiratory, topical, feline, and sweetener uses)"


So it appears that it can work both ways but most of the information given is for use in diarrhea, not constipation. One way to see what effect it is having on Peg is to stop it. If the diarrhea worsens, put her back on it and if it helps, the diarrhea is probably not related to the SEB. I would be more inclined to look to the food and the SEB source you have - trying make sure, as much as possible, that the product you have is pure inner bark, does not contain the outer bark, and contains no other ingredients at all. I use the NOW brand and have had great results.

Hope this helps and that our sweet Peg is feeling better soon.
Hugs,
Leslie

[labblab]

Thanks so much for the well wishes, Kathy, and for this additional info, Leslie. I do think I will knock off the SEB for today and see what happens. Maybe this is just too much fiber for Peg to handle, since the literature does speak about SEB's usefulness in "fiber-responsive" GI ailments. I know that with irritable bowel in humans, sometimes extra fiber helps and sometimes it hurts. I'm planning to revert back to chicken/rice, too, so it'll be hard to know which part is helping if she does improve. But just as long as something does help, I guess it won't matter which it is.

She has continued to pace around the yard when she's outside, but she hasn't produced any more poop. So at least she's not having urgent diarrhea. And right now she's sleeping peacefully on the couch. So unless something changes, I don't think I'll haul her back to the vet today. The office will be open tomorrow, even if my favorite vet will be off. And I just got the mail in and found the copy of her blood chemistries and phenobarb level from last week -- they were all within normal limits. So I don't think the blood cell counts that are missing will be all that significant.

I'm afraid we're just back with some more trial-and-error. I do suspect the food now. There are several ingredients that are new to her which is hard to get around, because her California Natural was basically only chicken and rice. I just called Natura, and they are hoping to be shipping new product by the end of the month. But that still leaves us four weeks in between. The food she's on now matched the nutritional profile most closely of anything I could find, and is also relatively limited ingredient. But it is lamb instead of chicken and there are a few other grains, too. :o

But both last week and now, she seemed to do OK with half the kibble and half homemade chicken/rice. It's when I got above that she's gotten ill. So maybe I can just maintain that combo for a longer time period and that will get us through. And I am using the "Now" SEB, Leslie, and it both smells and tastes sweet and pleasing to me. So if there's any problem with it, I'm guessing it's just too much fiber for her to handle right now.

Well, off to the store to buy some more chicken!

[labblab]

And Addy, thanks for your comments and info searching, too! I had indeed read them earlier and factored them into my thoughts this morning. I know what a battle you have been through with Zoe's allergies and IBD. So just knowing you are sending me well wishes means a lot because you know so well what a hard balance it is to get the food/nutrition/sensitivity issues just right. And you end up feeling like you are always just one poop away from disaster. :o :eek:

[Trixie]

Oh Marianne, sorry about Peg's bout with a bad poop this morning. I find that in the summer we always have this happen. I think you can't go wrong with the ole chicken and rice diet until things straighten out. I don't know anything about the SEB but I plan to get some to have on hand because everything I read about it is so positive. Everyone on the board who uses it has great results too. It may actually be keeping Peg from having a worse case of diarrhea-who knows?
I make very sticky rice for Trixie and I actually form little "rice balls" and put them on the plate for her so it's easier to eat...she loves it and it usually works pretty well to bind her back up.
It's definitely good news that Peg does not continue to go...one bad poop and now she's resting is a good sign I think....maybe she eliminated what was bothering her and now her system is re grouping. Trixie had 2 bad ones this weekend...I only gave her the sticky rice and a tiny bit low fat i/d kibble. By the next morning we had solid poops again. I have no idea what gave her the bad ones though. She does have a history of bad reactions to anything too fatty so maybe the turkey I had for her was fattier than usual...it didn't seem that way, guess this bout will remain a mystery for me.
If only these sweet dogs could talk...if only to say how they feel so we didn't worry ourselves into a crazy state of mind!!
The poops and vomiting create so much worry don't they!? :(
I hope Peg is on the way to recover from the tummy issues.
Barbara

[addy]

And you end up feeling like you are always just one poop away from disaster.

Boy is that the truth and sometimes it is caused by a half teaspoon of something new at our house.:eek::eek:

And the problem is some times there is a delayed reaction. Sometimes I give something to Zoe and I dont see the bad results until a full 24 hours or more.

I have to go really slow adding anything in for Zoe when her digestive tract is flared up, painfully slow.:(

I know, Marianne, I feel badly for you and Peg having to go through it. I know first hand what a fine line it is.

hugs again

[Budsters Mom]

How was Peg's day?
Kathy

[lulusmom]

I sure hope Peg's tummy starts to feel better soon and that good poops are in your future. :):D:) I've given SEB to Jasper, Buster, Red and a few other fosters who quit eating and/or had diarrhea. I've never had any bad reactions, just very good ones....worked like a charm every time. Did you make a gruel and syringe it into Peg's mouth or pour it on her food? I've never put it in food because my patients weren't eating so I had to syringe. I wonder if it makes a difference?????

[Tina]

Hi Marianne,
Checking in on you and Peg, and hoping her tummy has settled. Yes, it is a fine line indeed. We have struggled with these issues with Jasper also, I was so worried that we could not get him stable on one of the prescription kidney diets. I will be on eternal poop patrol now, I don't think I will ever feel comfortable just letting him out by himself. The comment about being one poop from disaster couldn't be more true. I hope your sweet girl is feeling better.

Hugs from me and Jasper

[labblab]

OK girls, I am suspecting that maybe Peg couldn't handle all the fiber in the SEB. She didn't poop at all yesterday after I discontinued it, and this morning's poop was fine again. Although of course I have also knocked back the amount of kibble again, so who knows which is helping. But she has never responded well to pumpkin, either. It has seemed to make her diarrhea worse rather than better when I've tried it in the past. So maybe she can't handle fiber well. Which speaking of, I know this new food has a higher fiber content than the old...hmmmm

As far as the SEB, I was cooking it into a gruel and adding it to a couple tablespoons of mushy rice in her bowl. She loved it! But unless she is horribly ill, she will eat anything I give her. Even during her acute pancreatitis attacks she still haunted me all day in the kitchen, watching vigilantly for any morsel to drop!

[Budsters Mom]

I am just glad that she's doing better, regardless of the reason. It sure would be nice to know if it's a problem with the food or too much fiber in the SEB.

[addy]

Could be fiber bothering Peg. Zoe had trouble with lignans, pumpkin, pectin, she would be ok at first but then after a while, she had problems. It is so hard to know. One time I found a paper written by a UK vet on how to do a trial with pumpkin to see if the dog is fiber responsive. The first 4 days worked like a charm and I was jumping for joy, the fifth day OMG:eek::eek: Back to square one.

I sure hope they get the Calif Natural back real quick.

[infoviewer]

Marianne: So glad Peg is better. I have never had any good results with SEB or pumpkin either. I just figured I was giving too much. I hope sweet Peg continues to have good poops. My CoCo will eat anything that I drop also, I have to get my foot on it quickly. I dropped a tiny piece of onion this morning and had to quickly get my foot on it. Take care sweet Peg. Love, JoAnne

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,
Just dropping in to check on your sweet Peg. Has her tummy finally settled? Hopefully she didn't get ahold of those yummy barbecued ribs! Hugs,

[Squirt's Mom]

Well, I would say Peg does have a "fiber responsive" intestinal issue that responds to increased fiber...just not in the direction we wished! :eek::p I am glad she seems to be settling down and hope the trend continues.

Hugs,
Leslie

[Fellasmom]

Hi Marianne
I hope Peg's tummy issues are continuing to improve and she is having better days.I've always had "little piggies" who would eat anything as well!:).Hope Peg is having a good day!I didn't know you were having problems with Peg as I haven't been on here in a bit.You were there for me everyday when Fella first passed so I'm sorry that I'm just realizing this!Hugs to you both and hope things have settled down and you are having a good weekend.
Love,
Patty

[labblab]

Thanks again, everybody, for all your well wishes. They must have done Peg good, because this morning we are finally back to 100% regular kibble and she just produced a perfect poop for mom!!!!!! :) :) :)

So I am hoping that she only had a bout of gastritis that's all healed up again, and that I can "sign off" on this episode for good! ;)

But in the meantime, Miss Peglet says to thank you all very much (and I surely hope I am not going to jinx things by posting this report...:o :eek:).

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

YAY!! So glad to hear poops are back to normal! (We're a weird bunch, ain't we? :D)

[Budsters Mom]

Perfect poop is about as good as it gets!:D I am so glad that Peg's tummy has settled Marianne. Big hugs,

[addy]

Perfect poo? Did I read perfect poo?:D:D:D

Way to go Peg!!!! Well, mom helped a bit too, right Marianne?

[frijole]

Oh the simple things that please us. LOL Way to go sweet Peg!!!! Kim

[infoviewer]

Hey Marianne: Can you believe how a perfect poop excites us. Good work Mom and Peg. Love, JoAnne

[labblab]

OK, so I'm feeling really cheery this morning and decide to treat the girls to an off-lead run in a nearby field so they can stretch their legs after being cooped up so much this past week 'cause of all the rain. We're not there for more than two minutes when they make a bee-line across the field and by the time I can run over myself, they've both got their heads buried in a pile of indescribable uck that has come from one end or the other of an animal unknown. Probably full of worms or disease or both. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Dang it, I know I'm overprotective but as soon as I let them "just be dogs," this is how I'm rewarded. :o :rolleyes:

So stay tuned, this thread may reopen for business again in about 24-48 hours and with two patients this time around. :( :(

[Squirt's Mom]

LOL They are just making sure you have plenty to do and worry about! Ain't our babies so helpful?! :eek::p I hope nothing comes of this little adventure.

[Budsters Mom]

Marianne,
All I can say is YUCK!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

[molly muffin]

UGH, well it would have made Flynn proud of them for sure. He seems to head for the UCK too. LOL
Hopefully they weren't able to really "dig in" before you got to them!

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh no, Marianne!!

Hopefully no reaction will be seen, praying for that. ;)

[spdd]

Now that we know everything is coming out allright, here's hoping the yuck was just that and nothing more.

[Trish]

Haha that does sound familiar to a naughty little dog I know!! My gawd, they take such pleasure in that gross yuck stuff and can smell it a mile away. So quick too, hope there were no after effects from their adventure on the wild side!!

[labblab]

This is actually a note about myself rather than Peg (fortunately, both she and Luna are doing good right now!). But I want to tell you all that I am needing to cut back on the time I spend here on the forums, at least for the time being. This is a very hard decision for me because K9C has been a second "home" to me for such a long time: the first place I check each morning and the last thing I check at night (and many, many times in between!). But that is the problem -- I have been spending so much time here that I am not taking proper care of my own home, family, and personal stuff. :o

You all mean far too much to me to leave entirely! But for right now, I will be focusing my attention more on the "In Loving Memory" forum than on the main "Questions/Discussion" forum ("ILM" has always been the place here that is closest to my heart). This doesn't mean you won't see me popping in here and there, but I just won't be able to read and reply as consistently as usual. If you have a specific question you want to ask me, you can always send me a PM to direct me to your thread. Otherwise, please know that even if you don't see me posting to you regularly, I am still sneaking a peek and always wishing you my best. And who knows, maybe I can get my life organized sooner rather than later. That would be a gift all the way around!

Love you all!
Marianne

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

You are so respected on this forum, so I am very glad you are not saying a total goodbye :eek::eek: but taking some time out. Family is so very important and I am sure yours is going to love having your undivided attention :) I think you are very sensible and it is also reassuring knowing your are but a PM away in emergencies! Take Care of yourself and I hope you don't get too much of the FWs (forum withdrawls) :D:D xxxxxx

[Altira]

We love Marianne! 8:::::.

[molly muffin]

Sending you huge hugs Marianne.

As I said somewhere else and will repeat here.

Sometimes you just have to stop and smell the roses of life. :)

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[SasAndYunah]

I so understand, Marianne. Life just sometimes catches up on us and we have to make decisions. Sending you and yours all my best and I know we will catch up again, sometime... And untill then we are, as we always were, connected through our beloved friends in the "ILM" <hugs> :)

Saskia :)

[labblab]

Well, I'm sorry to reopen Peg's thread due to trouble again but those dang GI issues are paying us a return visit :(. Two weeks ago, out of the blue, she had another day of vomiting. It was Sunday, so I fasted her for dinner, gave her a Cerenia, and waited until the morning to see how she was doing. She seemed hungry and otherwise normal, so I gave her chicken and rice. That seemed to do the trick, so I kept up the chicken and rice until the end of the week and then started adding back some kibble. I was about at half-and-half when we awoke to more barf on Sunday morning and also Monday morning. We didn't know whether Peg or Luna was the culprit, but I did't want to risk overlooking a problem with Peg, so took her in for bloodwork. Good news, everything came back fine, including the pancreatitis test and her stool sample. So I breathed a huge sigh of relief :), and slowly started adding kibble back to the chicken and rice again.

Sooooooo, Thursday, I notice a very nasty poop out in the yard -- the bad orange, mucousy kind :eek:. I switched back to all chicken and rice and yesterday's poop was fine. But now, we've just been out and it's more bloody, mucousy stuff and of course it is Easter weekend. I have some leftover metronidazole so just gave her a dose. But why is she doing this?? Did she pick up a bug at the vet? Did she get so stressed out that it triggered some inflammatory bowel again? We're supposed to go for Easter brunch with my mom tomorrow, but that will take us hours and I hate to leave her alone. And I'm already thinking ahead to next weekend. I'm supposed to go up to the mountains with some friends to have a little private celebration of life for our friend who died at Christmas. It's not that I don't trust hubby to care for her properly if she's sick, but well, ummmmmmmmmmm....not so much. :( :(

Now I am totally being a worry-wort and probably she will be just fine by then. And after all, her labwork was normal. But here we go again -- you guys know the drill -- flashlights and poop patrol 24/7, what food to give or not give, what meds to give or not give, wondering what the heck triggered this and when it will go away...:o Poor Peg.

[labblab]

I have a couple of questions for any of you guys who know nutritional "stuff"...

Peg has how been eating significant amounts of only white rice and chicken breast for two weeks now, and it looks as though we've got at least another week coming up. She has always done well with this as her "sick" food, but I am a little worried about all these reports about arsenic in rice and I am wondering if I should be switching off to a different carbohydrate. Would white potatoes be a good alternative? Would I just boil them and mash them up?

Also, she's gotten virtually no fat during this time period and I know that you need at least a little fat to be able to process certain nutrients. Do you think it would be a good idea to start back with her fish oil, or is there some other form of oil/fat that would be better for her right now?

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,

It is Easter, so it's blessings counting time. You have soooo many!
BREATHE, NOW BREATHE AGAIN! Okay good! :p

Why Peg now? Because it's a holiday weekend of course! Isn't that always the way? :o

I get the hubby caring for Peg thing. He loves her, but he's not into all her little tweaks. My folks were the same way with Buddy, now Rosie. I hated leaving Buddy even to go to work because either no one was home, or my folks couldn't read his signs of distress. I WORRIED!!! :o

Are you sure the culprit is Peg??? Did you happen to see her leaving these yucky gifts? You said that her tests were normal and that's good. Maybe Luna has a bug or ? It's too hard when you have more than one.

Well, I'm sure you will figure it out.

(((((((HUGS)))))))

[labblab]

Thanks, Kathy!

Yep, it's definitely Peg. The first "gift" had been left behind, but I saw the second and third right as they were delivered. :eek: :eek:

[Budsters Mom]

Rice is a double edge sword. Buddy was on a homemade Chicken rice and broccoli mixture for several months, one time due to severe allergies. We were trying to determine what was triggering them, so the doc put him on an elimination diet. His vet was not concerned that he was on rice that long. It was more important that we pinpointed his allergies and started to get that handled. Even with that mixture, his symptoms did not improve. He was eventually taken totally off of it and put on a salmon-based limited ingredient formula. His symptoms pretty much disappeared within a week or two. As it turned out, he was allergic to poultry, among other things. At that time, there wasn't an arsenic issue that anyone was aware. Dogs can easily develop allergies (or sensitivities) to foods that they've been eating for a long time. Maybe a different novel protein could help Peg.

Yes, I am concerned about the rice/arsenic issue also. That is one reason that I am still looking into changing Rosies food. Her Blue Buffalo limited ingredient salmon formula has brown rice in it. I am looking into finding her a grain free kibble that isn't too high in protein and will not aggravate her allergies. I also have a picky eater. That makes it harder because she has to like it too! She's not too crazy about what she's eating now.

You are not planning on leaving Peg on the rice and chicken any longer than you have to. I would think that getting her stabilized would be the most important issue right now.

I read something about white potatoes and inflammation conditions, but I don't quite remember what it was. I think it was a no-no. as a staple. Sweet potatoes are excellent though! They provide easily digestible fiber and beta-carotene. Hopefully someone will know more about the white potato issue and I could be wrong.

Sorry, but that's all I know Marianne, except I know the worry well. :o

Big hugs to you and your sweet girls,

[molly muffin]

Oh poor Peg and poor you too Marianne. I know it is such a worry.

I'm thinking that since her blood work came back fine that this is some sort of gastro upset, either IBD or virus. Iris has had a bit of this with her dogs in the Netherlands and it appears to have cleared up after a few days with her dogs. The metronidazole should get her through the weekend and you know that is what the vet will likely to give you for her on Monday(?) or Tuesday, not sure when yours is open. So do you have enough for a couple days? I imagine by that time and back on the chicken/rice that Peg will be back to normal. It can take a few days though. I tried everything remember with molly and finally the metronidazole is what did the trick.

I'd check poop in the morning and then she will probably be fine for a couple hours while you are away with two doses of the metronidazole already working for her (today and tomorrow).

I bet she will be fine by next weekend or at least enough that all hubby should have to do is give her a metronidazole if needed and check poop. Yep, he'll become flashflight boy.

They never do time these things for our convenience do they. :)

Hang in there Marianne.
hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Marianne, I am so sorry to hear that sweet Peg is having issues and hope she is feeling like her "ole" self real soon.

Instead of rice, what about pasta? Spelt Pasta, which is high in both fiber and protein, and Quinoa Pasta, which is high in protein and iron and boasts a low glycemic index, are two that I have read that are good.

I think it would be a good idea to start Peg back on some type of fish oil, wild salmon oil or krill oil are both excellent sources of omega-3's.

Hugs, Lori

[labblab]

Thank you, guys, for your thoughts and suggestions! We were out at 6:00 for a pee, but no poop since that last nasty one at dinnertime. So hopefully the metronidazole is settling in.

The non-wheat pastas are a great idea, Lori. I will see about picking one up so as to at least cut down on the rice. Although she does so well on the rice n' chicken that I'm sorry to have to think about changing it up. She seems to be getting into trouble as soon as I add much kibble back in. She had been eating lamb and rice kibble for several months with no problem, but maybe the lamb is now bothering her for some reason? Of course, she has most of a 30-pound bag still left over...

Anyway, I will just stick with plain chicken and rice yet today, at least. And hope for the best while we are over at my mom's!

[Squirt's Mom]

Quinoa itself would be a good substitute - not the same nutritional input as rice but that's not the goal right now so the quinoa would work. If you've never cooked quinoa before, don't panic when it looks like it has developed worms while boiling. :D It's supposed to do that! First time I cooked it, Jim looked in the pot thinking it was his supper and told me "that stuff has WORMS!" :p

You could try any of the grains - bulgur, oats, groats, etc. Again, since this is hopefully short term, the nutrient value isn't quite as important - we aren't trying to balance a daily diet in other words. White potatoes, sweet potatoes, the pastas Lori mentioned, anything that she will eat that won't upset her system during these spells should be ok.

I had to quit worrying about things like arsenic in rice. EVERYTHING we eat is contaminated and most suffer horrid treatment to be food for us. I lost over 20 lbs a little over a year ago because of worrying about things like this - I reached the point I could barely stand to eat anything. I played around with my babies diets too, which did not turn out well for any of us and I quickly went back to their regular menus - rice and all. Squirt has been eating brown rice for about 7 years now and white rice is a staple in my diet. So I focus on nutrient needs and try not to think about arsenic, heavy metals, chemicals, abuse, and so on.

[pansywags]

You asked about potato as an alternative to rice. If Peg likes it, sweet potato has a better nutritional profile (my dog wouldn't have eaten sweet potato if you paid her in tiny kittens, but I did try).

I made a batch of quinoa and ground turkey for Pansy once. The small quinoa grains stuck to her boxer jowls and flew off all over the house - some were even stuck to the walls in the hallways where she'd stop and shake.

[Tina]

Oh Marianne, I'm so sorry that Peg is having trouble, it is so worrisome when their tummies act up. And I'm sorry I didn't see this last night when I was finally doing some catch up on the forum. :o It sounds like you are on top of it, as usual. Do you have enough metronidazole to get you through today or tomorrow until you can check in with your vet?

Arsenic in rice??! I was not aware of that issue. I'm going to have to read up on that. Always something more to worry about it seems.

My Angel Dakota had bouts of colitis throughout her life, and as we all know, Jasper has his fair share of upsets also. My vet has said in the past that we could use pasta instead of rice for the bland diet. She didn't specify any special type, so I am assuming she just meant the regular non wheat type.

I don't have much nutritional input, but just a couple of thoughts based on my experiences. Jasper seems to not do as well when chicken is part of the bland diet for some reason, he does much better if ground beef is used. I know it is the other way around for most. And it sounds like Peg does well with chicken, so just a thought. Also, I wonder if maybe Peg needs to be on the bland diet alone for a bit longer consecutively before you try to start mixing the kibble back in? I know a couple of times in the past I think I tried the transition too soon (even though I thought I had given it enough time) and had to start back at square one. Another thought I had was if Peg was taking any probiotics? Once when Jasper had a particularly difficult case that went on for a couple of weeks off and on, the addition of Fortiflora for 30 days did the trick. We have used it on a couple of occasions since then also.

Great news that there has been no more vomiting, and no poo since last evening. I hope that is an indication that things are starting to settle for her. It is so hard to see them not feeling well, and I know the anxiety of waiting and watching for each poop. With all of Jasper's issues, I have resigned myself to the fact that I am on permanent poop patrol. I go out with him on every trip, day or night, flashlight never far from my hand!

I hope you are enjoying brunch with your family and that all is well with your sweet baby when you get home.

Happy Easter to you and your family.

Big hugs,

Tina and Jasper xo

[molly muffin]

How did Peg do today? Did you go do luncheon with your mom?

I hope everything is going okay and the meds kicked in.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Thank you, everyone, for checking in with us! So far, no poop yet today and I am taking that as a good thing. ;)

We did have a lovely lunch at my mom's, so that was also good. I very much appreciate the alternative feeding suggestions to keep in mind, but guess I will leave things alone with the chicken and rice for right now since Peg continues to tolerate that well and I do not want to rock the boat. Tina, I think you may be right that I have been too quick to try to transition back to kibble. Maybe if I just give her some more time on the bland diet, it will help. At least, I hope so...:o

We'll see what tomorrow brings!
Marianne

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

Checking in for the poop report, hope Peg has produced a good one by now!! While I have dealt with IBD with Flynn I really feel like I stumble through what to feed him. I do try and keep him on a single protein source and grain free, with a probiotic and Metamucil for a bit of extra fibre. It seems to work for a while then whammo we need to change again. So frustrating for him and me... he likes food, the meatier the better, not so good on kibble either!! I hope the transition goes better this time for Peg. I have noticed with Flynn he does better for longer on just a little kibble and either a good quality wet food, or novel protein. I don't use antibiotics as I worry about developing resistance and he has settled without them. Often when he has needed antibiotics for other reasons they upset his gut so I don't want to use them if we can possibly get away with it. But as you know all doggies are different and what works for one may not work for the next! Hope you get a handle on what is causing it and I agree transition real slow. xx

[labblab]

Thanks for the well wishes, Trish! Unfortunately, the 6:00 a.m. toilet run is very disappointing. First poop in 36 hours -- it started out fine but ended up not fine :(. I only gave her two doses of the Diawin (kaolin/pectin), one Saturday morning and one Saturday evening, and now I am thinking I need to resume and continue it since the first part of today's stool was actually nicely formed. I had not wanted to end up plugging her up, but I think it must have been helping and I should keep it up for a while. She is still on plain chicken and rice and the metronidazole.

I believe I will just drive back to the vet alone this morning to save Peg the stress since she already had the full exam last week. But I will talk things over and try to get a gameplan in place. As you and everybody else who battles these GI issues knows, though, it is just so puzzling and frustrating to figure out what is going to help vs. what is going to hurt. And especially to figure out what ends up triggering an episode in the first place. This really has me mystified this time, and I do wonder if she could have picked up a bug at the vet's last week since her stool was perfectly fine until I took her in :o.

[Trish]

Darn, how frustrating. Maybe take a poop sample in with you? Might be worth them taking a good look under the microscope. I am presuming Peg is up to date with worming. I would be like you and not want to get her constipated. I am careful with using products like that in people as well, I figure the body is trying to get rid of that poop for whatever reason. Especially if there is an infectious cause, it is better out than in. When Flynn first started with these episodes they did give him a special worming treatment, for the life of me I cannot remember what it was called sorry and also the Metamucil to give him a bit of extra fibre and thereform substance to his poops so that might be worth discussing with your vet whether it would help Peg.

Yeah, you got to wonder where they pick up these bugs. Could be anywhere though, they do love to sniff other dogs messages!! Oh and yep at the vets with all the sick dogs is definitiely a likely source... I like it at my vets as they are always mopping the floors. I try not to let Flynn sniff about there, he is usually more inclined to sniff along the food shelf and not the floor!! Hope the vet has some more advice for you today.

[labblab]

Yes, that was exactly my same thinking about the Diawin, too. But the first half of this morning's "production" was so nice and normal that it is very tempting to resume it for at least another day or so. I'll see what the vet says.

And yes, good thought about the stool sample -- i just headed out to grab a bit to take in (can't remember, should it be refrigerated like pee?). They had checked her stool last Monday, but that was before the diarrhea had started. So we shall see. Of course, it could always be something like giardia that is so difficult to isolate. With as much noodling as my girls do amongst the leaves and around the lake, I am always worried that they are going to pick up something nasty!

[Trish]

Yep, I would put it in the fridge (niiiiiiiiiiiiice! lol) usually if they pick up some run of the mill bug while noodling (I like that saying) I have found it is usually short lived and all over and done with in a day or two. Things like giardia can hang around for ages and can take a while to pinpoint. I was very surprised at the cost of checking poop, it was real expensive here a couple of hundred, hope yours is cheaper! You cannot miss giardia, it is really stinky. But treatment in humans not sure about dogs includes metronidiazole so Peg is already on that

[addy]

How did I miss all of this, Marianne? 'm so sorry for sweet Peg's gastro issues. You had asked about potatoes. Zoe was the queen of white potatoes. For some reason they did not bother her IBD. we bought plain russet potatoes and hubby would cut them up and boil them. No mashing, we just gave her the chucks. Of course, Zoe was small so we broke apart the chunks into small pea size treat pieces but you could just give Peg the chunks. We never changed the type of potato, it was always a plain russet. It worked so well for Zoe and I hope maybe it would work for Peg.

Spring is a hard time, there is so much junk laying around from the winter, helicobacter likes to show up too as well as all the other nasty stuff.

hugs

[labblab]

Thank you, Addy. Now I will keep the potato in mind as another carb option. Peg had another nasty poop during our morning walk, so I drove in to the vet afterwards. He eyeballed the sample, but said he didn't feel as though we yet needed to launch into additional testing with it since last week's sample had been free of parasites, etc. If this doesn't clear up by week's end, we'll look further.

He said I'm doing all the right things, and it may just take some time for her large intestine to settle. Metronidazole for five days, the Diawin only as needed (only after I see a loose stool). Since she has always tolerated the chicken and rice in the past, stick with that for the remainder of the week. Once she starts to firm up, I can add back some kibble, but I am switching back to the lowfat chicken/rice kibble from the lamb. Since her bloodwork was OK, he was very reassuring. And so I feel reassured again -- for the time being. But if I keep seeing those nasty poops, then I can promise you that my twitcher will be right back on high alert again! :o :eek:

[goldengirl88]

Marianne:
You still find time to help others with all this going on!! I hope Peg settles down with her poops. That is one thing that gives all of us the Willy's is a bad poop. My parrot Elvis sometimes feeds Toby some of his food, he knows it is a no no, but does it as soon as I turn away. So sometimes Toby gets a bad poop from eating Elvis's food. You are going to have to mount a camera on Peg and see what she is getting into! Hope you find the cause. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

Oh yes. Our twitchers are fine tuned around here. :-).
It's good to have a plan. Hopefully this will work and she'll be back in 'fine form' in no time at all.
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Trish]

Good Morning Marianne - glad the vet is not too concerned, it sure can take a while to settle down. I hope the swap to chicken kibble does the trick for Peg, very reassuring the labs are all good. Fingers crossed by weeks end this will have totally passed and your twitcher can take a rest!! xx

[addy]

Hope you both had a quiet, restful day.

[Squirt's Mom]

How is Peg this morning? I'm glad the vet didn't find anything concerning!

[labblab]

No poop at all yesterday. Very bad poop again first thing this morning.

This is the longest she has ever gone without intervention helping. This is a week of bad poops, Day Four of the metronidazole, and week three of chicken/rice first due to the vomiting, now the poop.

Since she otherwise doesn't seem "off," I guess I'm most worried about nutritional deficits at this point. I mean, I can't keep her on just chicken/rice forever, especially if it is not helping :(. (Plus, I just had to throw out a whole pan of chicken I had cooked last night just before bed and forgot to refrigerate!).

Regular vet is off today, so I guess I have no choice but to stay the course until tomorrow. I guess I could try shifting to hamburger and a different carb. Or maybe we should bite the bullet and try one of the nasty Rx foods for awhile? Addy, or anybody who has struggled with inflammatory bowel long-term, what do you finally end up doing if you keep on having bad poops? Feed regular food, regardless, so at least there is proper nutrition??

[Squirt's Mom]

I worried about the same with Grace because of the foods we finally found that she could eat and not have diarrhea all the time. She wasn't on a truly balanced diet period the whole time she was here due to her extreme sensitivity. We compensated with NutriCal daily. It was the only "supplement" we could add to the food without a reaction. A friend gave me some Balance It to try and it was a total disaster! :eek: Every single commercial feed I tried with her, including prescription Hill's :eek:, was a disaster for Grace. :(

Since this is hopefully a short term event for Peg, I would add the NutriCal or something similar to her food. Even tho Grace's ultimate diet didn't reach our goal there were improvements to her coat, skin, and in other areas...and she was on it for several months.

Isn't it funny how we change about foods? I grew up eating left over fried chicken, pork chops, roast beef, and other meats that had been left out on the stove overnight but today I'm not sure I would. Oddly, my mother was a germ-a-phobe due to her education in part but leaving food out like that didn't bother any of us then. :rolleyes:

[labblab]

Thanks for the Nutrical suggestion, Les. Looks like I can easily buy that. Yes, I thought long and hard before throwing out the chicken, but then figured how will I know whether maybe it's gone bad and will make Peg even sicker? I would have kept it and eaten it myself, but "ditto" since I've just been getting over this bug that has upset my own stomach!

I don't know, maybe I should go ahead and start adding back a little of the kibble, regardless. Seems like it can't make things worse than they are, now (although maybe it can...?).

[addy]

IBD is different for each dog. Zoe's responded to antibiotics so we knew it was bacteria based. She never threw up from it, though dogs will do both. When Zoe had a flare, I had to stop all food for 12 hours (skip a meal) and then slowly increase the amount of food while giving her metronidazole. I think Peg may need the metronidazole longer than five days if it is day 4 and her poops are no better.

I could not switch to hamburger and rice or chicken and rice because it just made Zoe worse. I continued her regular food, just less of it. I always worried about her weight loss when she had a flare but the only way I could control it was to cut back how much food she was eating and slowly work up. I really dont think a few weeks of an imbalanced diet matters. Sometimes I tried to add fiber to her food, she would improve for a few days and then get worse.

Our experience was Zoe's IBD was antibiotic responsive and I could never change her food or give her anything new without it resulting in a flare.

I hope Peg feels better soon. You might have to bite the bullet and try the prescription food for a few weeks and maybe a probiotic.

[labblab]

Thank you, Addy. Maybe I will go ahead and add a little bit of kibble in with dinner tonight, just to see whether she can possibly tolerate it. As I know you all know, with so many variables it is hard to figure which is the best thing to change at which time.

She has already been on a daily probiotic ever since her first acute pancreatitis attack three years ago, and the vet told me to always give that every day. She had also been getting fish oil and a dietary supplement called "Missing Link" to help with joints and skin/coat. But he suggested holding off on both of those while she is having the inflammatory issue since they both involve fat and it is hard to know whether fat is good or not good for her right now. In a way, I think the kibble is the safer bet because it does have nutrients as well as a bit of fat and fiber. So I guess I may have talked myself into giving it a bit of a try this evening. And yes, I have more Metronidazole, so I can keep giving it, too. The phenobarb decreases its effectiveness, so it may turn out that she needs a higher dose. <SIGH>

[molly muffin]

Oh Marianne, I do hate when they won't settle, it just messes with the nerves big time.
Nutrical sounds like a good way to make sure she is getting the nutrition she needs and I saw you are thinking of adding in some metamucil. Maybe that will do the trick if she just needs a bit more fiber.

Do you have a probiotic too that you can give her? In case her tummy is off balance?

I hope this works and her tummy settles down.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[addy]

Oh Marianne- sometimes we have to switch up the probiotics, they cant always stay on the same one I had to switch Zoe's every year.

It might be after three years Peg may need a new one. Just another thought, I know. Too many changes at once are not good.

I think there was an article about switching on Dogaware. I'll go look.

[Squirt's Mom]

I wondered about that too, Addy, but never took the time to find out why the whistle went off in my head!

[labblab]

Thanks girls. I'll try to research that some more myself.

She just had another small bad poop. Mainly just liquid and mucous. So now I don't know about adding the kibble at dinner or not. :confused:

I've thought about pumpkin or slippery elm, but neither of those things have seemed to help her in the past. Plus, it's hard to arrange giving her other meds around the timing of the slippery elm.

I went ahead and gave her a half-dose of the Diawin. I had been holding off, but decided to go ahead to try to settle her a bit in advance of dinner, whatever I end up giving her. :o

[Trish]

Hey Trish, how much metamucil do you add to Flynny's food? I am still having a hard time with Peg :(, and am wondering whether some fiber might help (seems like it can't hurt! :o).

Marianne

HI Marianne
Bugger the bad poops are continuing for Peg, I know it is so disheartening when you see them. I have never been advised to use Metronidazole for Flynn, but it does seem to help a lot of the dogs with this problem. His is more likely related to allergens than bacteria. I think I would be tempted to have another ultrasound if not done recently to make sure there is nothing else contributing. Scans were beneficial to a degree as it showed some small bowel thickening which they felt likely due to IBD. But it was not until he had the biopsy during the liver surgery the diagnosis was confirmed. I know vomiting in these dogs usually means a problem higher up the bowel, not so common with lower problems. But he generally feels a bit stink when it is flaring, less energy etc. Pumpkin and SEB did not really help him either

So his treatment has been:


Metamucil 1/4 tsp daily - this is for a 30 pound dog. I give it at night dissolved in approx. 30ml of water and poured on his food.
Probiotic - at lowest adult dose, I use Inner Health. They sometimes have a specific IBS support one, I like using that as it is in a capsule but usually just get the powder one and either sprinkle it on his food or mix with the Metamucil
Keep him on a single protein, swap when he has a bad flare. I have tried hypoallergenic food with him - he did not like them, but it did work

Hope this helps :)

[labblab]

Thanks Trish!

For better or worse, I did just go ahead and add a little kibble to her supper. Guess we'll know in the morning if it was a good idea :o.

Peg has actually never had an ultrasound, but yes, that certainly may be in the cards if this doesn't resolve. We may need to go ahead with the bile acids test, too. Her liver enzymes are normal, but what with the phenobarb, there may be some impairment that has not yet translated into abnormal chem readings. If so, we'd need to nip that in the bud and get her switched.

The timing of everything was just very odd. Vomiting the one day, and then nothing for a week. Then the bit more vomiting, and meanwhile her poop was totally normal. Then five days later (and after the vet visit), the bad poop started. From the mucous and blood, the poop issue definitely appears to be in the large intestine.

Thankfully, she otherwise appears well. She was sooooo excited when she heard the kibble bag being ripped open! At least no problem with appetite, that's for sure! :)

[Trish]

If the liver numbers are OK is it worth doing bile acids? Flynn has only had them done once and his ALP/ALT were off the charts but bile acids normal.

Flynn's IBD is definitely small bowel, duodenum and jejunum. His biggest symptom is mucousy covered poops, looks like a sausage at times. But he has had blood just a smear twice. vomiting more likely small bowel too, so it really is hard to pinpoint sometimes.

Pleased she was excited for her kibble!

[addy]

They scoped Zoe and biopsied. That was when her diagnosis became offical IBD. I would have to go find the report for the exact finding. It was then they also found the helicobacter. When I joined the IBD yahoo forum, most of the dogs had been scoped.

Maybe Tylan would work better for Peg if it is ok with her meds or maybe it is more allergy related for her like Flynn or maybe something she had when vomiting bothered her.

Does pumpkin work? I remember the slippery elm did not.

[molly muffin]

I think looking into the tylan if it is compatible might be a option as Addy mentioned. So I'll second that one. :)

hugs, hope Peg does better tomorrow
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

If the liver numbers are OK is it worth doing bile acids? Flynn has only had them done once and his ALP/ALT were off the charts but bile acids normal.

I am not sure about that. Up to this point, the issue really had not arisen for us, but several of the epilepsy sites harp on doing bile acids periodically for dogs on phenobarb in order to be proactive. I dunno if that's really true. Since I think they load the dog with a fatty meal, I'm not eager to subject Peg to the testing if we don't need to, that's for certain.

At Peg's age, I don't know that I'm eager to scope her unless somehow that would change the treatment and I guess I'm not sure that it would even if it turns out that she does have IBD. Seems as though even with the diagnosis, there is still a lot of trial-and-error in terms of food and meds?

Yup, the tylan does seem like another option to discuss, though. At least that would be an easy thing to try. :o

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Marianne,

so sorry to hear that Peg has these problems :( I did however, had to think of Sogno. His case was somewhat different but still, no harm in sharing what finally did the trick for him. Sogno had the biopsy and turned out to be truly allergic to all proteins and so he was put on a hydrolysed food. (where all the proteins are "cut up" so the body doesn't recognise them as proteins) He had tried everything, goatmeat, patatoe, pasta, lots of medications and supplements but nothing worked (because all those ingredients still contained proteins :) ) Anyway, since then I have heard so many people with dogs that aren't even diagnosed with foodallergies but rather IBD or something similar (or something completely unknown...just bad poops and vomitting with no know cause) that made the switch to a hydrolysed food. And most are very happy with the results. I used Royal Canin Veterinary Diet - Hypoallergenic DR 21. But Royal Canin has a large range of Veterinary Diets that might be helpfull just have a look. (I know, don't look at the ingredients list..but if it helps, it helps :) ) http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/royal_canin_vet_diet

Anyway, thought I would let you know. It would be so much easier to find a complete food that works well instead of keep trying to find something that works...

All my best,

Saskia :)

[labblab]

Oh Saskia, I surely do remember all the challenges you experienced with Sogno! And I agree with you -- even if the Rx ingredients don't sound very healthy, sometimes they really, really help to relieve an acute issue. And overall, I think the Royal Canin line is more appealing than the Hill products. When Peg had her pancreatitis attack, I tried to match the profile of her commercial food as closely as I could to the Royal Canin "counterpart." That is the same kibble that I am hoping to reintroduce to her again now. But if this time around it is instead a food sensitivity, then I think your advice about a completely different Rx food makes a lot of sense. She has not pooped yet this morning, so I don't know the result of my kibble experiment :o.

One thing I need to remember to calm myself is that, even though it feels like this has been going on for a year now (!), I don't even know whether the vomiting and diarrhea are connected since they were separated by a week's time. Plus, the bad poops have now only been going on for a week. Peg otherwise appears to feel fine, and it is not that she is having unusually frequent poops -- it's just that the poops she has are not normal. So before getting involved in a lot of involved diagnostics, I do believe I would prefer to try something simple like a Rx dietary change first. Thank you for reminding me of this Royal Canin line. I will look look over the products so I'll be prepared to talk over the options with my vet if things do not improve.

[addy]

Just stopping by to say hi and I am hoping Peg did ok with her kibble.

Big hugs and I dont blame you for not wanting to scope Peg. Zoe was scoped by default, she swallowed a piece of plastic toy I knew was too big to come out the other end. When they went in to get it out they finished by scoping and taking biposies, figuring it would help to figure out her "colitis".

[Budsters Mom]

Dropping in to check on you and Peg? xxxxxx

[Trish]

HI Marianne

How did the kibble experiment go?? Hopefully things are settling down?? x

[labblab]

Thanks for checking on us, guys! Well, there was no poop yesterday until just before bed, and it was basically the same -- but at least no worse. Unless something changes today, I think I will leave things status quo (adding in the bit of kibble) until Monday, because that will have been a full week of this treatment. I just compared ingredients/analysis again, and the food is very much the same as the Rx food that I would be trying to switch to, anyway. I have plenty of Metronidazole on hand, so I can continue that as well. Fingers crossed that a couple more days may do the trick. If not, I'll have to see what our vet suggests on Monday.

[Squirt's Mom]

I hope you see that improvement we are all watching for very soon, Marianne. I know how upsetting this can be when the threat of pancreatitis isn't in the picture and you have that to weigh as well so I can only imagine your angst every time she goes potty. I remember following Trink around for months and constantly lifting her long haired tail to see if her butt was clean in case I missed something. I remember the terror I felt when I saw all that blood the first time and how hard it was to finally get her regulated....and what a relief that was. I pray daily that you and Peg soon have that same relief.

Hugs,
Leslie

[labblab]

Thank you very much, Les. With a visible wound, it's always there for you to see and monitor. So even though it may be bad, there are no surprises. But with this darn GI stuff, you get your hopes up in between the bouts, the suspense mounts, and then...if it's not good you feel so crummy and know you just have to wait again until the next time. At least Peg isn't worried -- only mommy is! :o

[Squirt's Mom]

yeah...but I was talking about when her colitis first flared and bright red blood was all she was passing. The anal gland ruptures are a whole 'nother ballgame! :p

[molly muffin]

Soooooooo Poop Report???? hahahaha

Waiting for that firm report to come in yet! Come Peg, you can do it, just go for it. ;)

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

Morning report: Poop still very soft, but for the first time - no mucous. So I will take that as a victory!

Now the hard part is that I am leaving for an overnight trip with some girlfriends to hit wineries up in the mountains. I welcome the break, but that means hubby is in charge of everything :eek:. He should do fine with the food and meds (he had a training run last night :)). But I'm not as confident about poop patrol. I just don't think he'll follow her every time the girls go outside to play in the yard. But maybe that will be just as well, because I'd probably just stay the course until Monday, regardless. She's getting 1/3 rice, 1/3 chicken, and 1/3 kibble. Right now, at least I can head off thinking she's doing better. :o

I'll have my iPad so I'll still be checking in a bit in the evening and tomorrow morning. In the meantime, let the wine flow! ;)

[Squirt's Mom]

Enjoy your trip! And tell hubby we will be here looking over his shoulder should he need us! :p

[molly muffin]

What great fun!!! You go and have a good time with your friends. Peg will be just fine. Sounds like she is making good progress. You can check poop on Monday. I am pretty sure she'll still be doing poops Monday Tuesday Wednesday etc. loll loll lol.
Do not check your iPad! You check the wine. We'll check the forum. Deal??

Have a great time. You deserve it and more
Hugs
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

Go and enjoy yourself, Marianne, have a few glasses for me! :eek::D

[labblab]

Hi guys, just got back home. Had a lovely time, and Dad did a good job of caretaking -- reported that the poops last night and this morning looked better. Then, thirty minutes before I got home, same-old, same-old :(. Just in my honor, I guess, to keep me on my toes :o. So unless there is an improvement in the morning, I guess I will need to report to our vet tomorrow and see what he wants to do. Since at least it was a little better until tonight, maybe we just keep doing what we're doing? But I figure I need to update him to see about continuing the metronidazole. She's been on it for eight days now. I can also ask about the Tylan, but I have this lurking thought that it is a class of antibiotic that may be a no-no with phenobarb. I'll try to check that in the morning before I call.

Marianne

Edited to add that this doesn't sound like the Tylan may be a good choice...


Carbamazepine (Tegretol), phenobarbital and phenytoin (Dilantin) are commonly prescribed for the management of epilepsy and other disorders. These agents are eliminated through hepatic metabolism. Thus, their effects may be potentiated by drugs that inhibit cytochrome P450 hepatic metabolism, such as macrolide antibiotics [this includes Tylan] cimetidine (Tagamet) and fluconazole (Diflucan).

Maybe she needs a stronger dose of the metronidazole cuz it's the opposite issue with it: the phenobarb decreases its effectiveness.

[Budsters Mom]

Sounds like Dad did a good job! Yay Dad! :p

I'm glad you got out with friends and had a good time. :p It is important to get a break now and then and reconnect with other adults.

You are probably more worried about all of this than Peg is. That seems to be the mother's job. :o she's in great hands and I know you'll get it figured out. Hopefully soon!! Xxxxx

[Tina]

Hi Marianne,

I am just checking to see if everything resolved with Peg? Did you end up checking in with your vet?

I was happy to read that you were able to get away last weekend for some R&R with friends and that things went well on the home front. It sounds like you had fun.

I am thinking about you guys and hope she is feeling better and her tummy has settled now.

Thank you for your support and posting your opinion on vaccines on our thread. Your input was very reassuring, as always! :)

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[labblab]

Aww, thanks for checking on us. I've been hesitant to post for fear of jinxing things ;), but we are making progress. I think that transitioning back to the chicken/rice kibble has been helpful. She is not yet back on 100% kibble and her poop is still softer than normal. But at least it is partially formed, and no mucous for several days. We have stopped the metronidazole, and are hoping to start adding back her supplements soon. So fingers crossed that we'll keep moving forward now!

And Tina, I am really glad to hear that your vet is being reasonable with the vaccination for Jasper. That is just what I would be doing in your situation. Peg was also due for her 3-year boosters of core vaccines over the winter. She is almost ten now, and given her history of medical problems and the fact that she has always received scheduled vaccinations in the past, we opted to first titer-test for the DHPP combo. All her levels are good, so we felt comfortable skipping that vaccination. But we did proceed with her rabies shot and also a leptospirosis vaccination because we live in an area where both diseases are epidemic among the wildlife, and there have been recent instances of dogs being bitten in their own yards by rabid animals in our area. I know these decisions can be difficult and come down to balancing risks and benefits. But I do think it is best done on a case-by-case basis.

Anyway, thanks again for asking about my girl! :)

Marianne

[Trish]

So, has the corner been turned?? Hope so and she is eating and pooping like she should! x

[labblab]

Thanks Trish! As of last night, we finally got a normal poop and she is back on 100% kibble. We shall see what today brings!!!

[Trish]

Yippee!!! Phew we love good poop reports!! Keep it up Peg and glad it has come right x

[mytil]

Good to hear Marianne!

T.

[Squirt's Mom]

Alright! Good poops! Way to go Peg and Mom!

[molly muffin]

Yipppeeee Way to go Peg! Solid poops! Much admired!

hahahaha

Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

I just wanted to add a quick note about rotating probiotics -- we were talking about that earlier in relation to the fact that Peg has been taking the same multi-strain preparation for quite some time. I have no idea as to the credibility of this journal, but here's a 2011 article that downplays the benefit of rotation except when a specific situation/issue has changed and needs to be addressed differently. Apparently rotation was earlier thought to be a good idea, but no studies at the time of this article actually supported any benefit. So FWIW, I'll go ahead and throw out the link for you guys to read and consider:

http://www.klaire.com/images/probiotics_update_summer_2011_2.pdf

Marianne

[addy]

I'll read it with interest, Since rotating always helped Zoe, I thought it beneficial but it could be less important if the pup doesn't have a condition they are taking antibiotics for daily. Koko has no stool or tummy issues and I dont switch his probiotics as much as I did Zoe.

I never did find the article about rotating but must admit, I got sidetracked and did not look too hard. My bad.:o:o:o:o

Hey, if it is not broken, dont fix it.:):):):):)

[Harley PoMMom]

So happy to read that Peg is doing so well!!! YAAAA!!!!

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

How is Peg doing now, tummy still behaving?? I use a probiotic that is specifically for IBD. It comes in capsules and our vet said to give him the child dose. Or lowest adult dose. It is called IBS Support and the company is Ethical Nutrients. It is not always available so I do swap to others when I cannot get this one. I don't think it is totally absorbed though as I do occasionally see white spots in his poop (TMI!) and think it is from this pill.

Anyway, hope Peg is doing just fine now! xx

[paulawhitcomb]

I'm sorry to hear that! I didn't experience like that.

[Squirt's Mom]

Yes, how is Peg doing these days?

[labblab]

Thanks, girls, for asking about Peg. :)

She is doing pretty good right now. Very soft poops, but no outright diarrhea nor apparent discomfort, so I'm satisfied on the GI front.

She does have a little growth on her eyelid and a big lipoma that we just noticed in her right armpit. Or, at least we are assuming it is a lipoma. She's due for labwork, anyway, so I'm sure our vet will do a needle biopsy to make sure :o. But I'm banking on it being a lipoma and hoping that neither growth needs to be removed right away!

Maruanne

[molly muffin]

We are the lipoma family around here aren't we :) Wonder why they all seem to show up under the arm pits.

Glad to hear that Peg is doing well these days. :) excellent news!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[labblab]

So, Peg went in on Monday for her regular bloodwork, and for the most part the news was good. Her phenobarb level was fine, her lipomas really are just lipomas per needle aspiration, and most of her bloodwork was normal per my vet's report (I'll get the copy to pore over today). However, her albumin/globulin combo is a tiny bit outside of normal range. Albumin is just below normal and globulin is just above normal. My vet is not concerned at this stage, and I am trying not to be, either. Later today, I'll pull out her previous labs to do some comparisons and maybe that will put me more at ease.

But...I know that maintaining a normal albumin level is very important for a lot of reasons. And also, there can be various reasons for a low level. One thing that leaps out at me, though, is the fact that we've not done a urinalysis in a good while -- we've been focused on blood results for everything and one thing I'd like to see is whether she may be spilling some protein in her urine. So, for all you UPC experts out there (you know who you are!), here's a question. If you're looking for protein, can you do the testing on a free catch, or is it better to have the vet draw urine via a cysto? I'll take her back in if I need to, but she really stresses at the vet's now after so many years of pokes. I'd rather just go the soup ladle route if I can. :o

Marianne

[molly muffin]

Yes, my IMS said you can do a free catch. What you want is 3 UPC that show abnormally high protein in a row.

If one is normal, then you start again, because you need to have consistency otherwise, it could just be an off chance that it was higher. We have had 2high, one normal, and now we are due another one soon, that I will take in after morning free catch. Much less stressful that way.

A complete urinalysis is a good idea anyway to have and make sure they check it in the office before sending the sample off to the lab. As our last one, everything in the office looked good, but the sample at the lab was ridiculously bad and contrary in almost every way. My vet said that is a throw away result when that happens.

Do let us know what the comparisons show when you get a chance to look at the albumin/globulin.

You know we'll all jump on the research bandwagon with you!!

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

When Bear would have an UPC done, it was a free catch method, the one important thing is that you want the urinalysis done first and then if nothing shows up in the urinalysis than the UPC can be done (on the same urine).

Hugs, Lori

[Tina]

Hi Marianne,

I thought I would chime in here since unfortunately I have experience with UPC's. Not sure I would call myself an expert exactly though. :o

For Jasper, we have done it both ways with obtaining the urine sample, depending on what all was going on with him. However I know it is perfectly fine to bring in a free catch urine sample from home for the UPC, I have done it that way several times per the direction of my vet. And as Lori and Sharlene said, it's important for them to run a regular UA on the sample before sending it for the UPC. They need to check for sediment and bacteria, because if either of those are present it can definitely skew the results. Also they will do a regular check for protein. If this check for protein is negative, I'm not sure that a UPC would be necessary? If I remember correctly, the reason that we started checking Jasper's UPC is because his regular urine checks were showing a high-level of protein on several consecutive checks. I think they were showing 3+ protein. And as we all know, his UPC's were high, so we started treatment.

There are many things that can cause them to spill protein in their urine, so I think I would first want to have a regular check for protein. Hopefully that will be negative Marianne and you won't have to worry about it.

I'm happy to read that Peg's lumps are lipomas. What a relief. Jasper has a bunch of those also, it's hard to keep on top of having them all checked.

I will be interested to see the comparisons with the albumin and globulin also when you get a chance to check.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[labblab]

Thanks so much, guys!

Well, after spending several hours looking everything over yesterday, here's where I'm at. First, I now know much more about albumin/globulin than I did before, but I won't bore you with details unless somebody else comes up with the same issue and wants to chat with me about it. ;)

Secondly, this proves again how important it is to keep copies of lab reports so you can go back and review trends, even when results have fallen within the normal range. Because even though Peg's labwork had all been "normal" recently, I can now track this issue unfolding. Unfortunately, I can't find her 2012 results so I must have pulled them for some reason and put them in a really special place :rolleyes:, but at least I have 2011 results and the last four draws dating back to a year ago.

What I found is that her albumin has been on the low side and her globulin has been on the high side at least ever since last summer -- until now, they just hadn't slipped out of range and been flagged. Also, her BUN has been consistently on the very low side of normal ever since starting the phenobarb during the spring of 2011. All along I've been thinking that was a good thing, but now I'm going "Hmmm..."

There are a number of different possible causes for each of these issues. Some explanations account for each independently, some account for two at a time, some account for all three. Since she's on phenobarb, the most sinister that would account for all three is liver damage. However, her liver enzymes have always been good and remain that way. We can do a bile acids test, and maybe should do so, although I hate to load her with a fatty meal to do the test.

The albumin/globulin combo can also appear with tick-borne disease, but she just had that panel run and it was negative, plus she has no overt symptoms. As we know, the low albumin could be associated with kidney damage and urinary protein loss, but her creatinine is good and her BUN is actually low, so she hasn't got severely compromised kidney function at this stage.

The high gobulin may be independently caused by an inflammatory process such as chronic GI issues, which wouldn't be surprising to me given her periodic barfing and diarrhea along with her pretty consistently soft poops. And one thing I read said that overproduction of globulin may naturally result in underproduction of albumin.

But wait, the low albumin and low BUN could both be a result of a diet that is too low in protein. In my campaign to keep her on a lowfat diet, I've known that her protein intake has also been lower than I'd otherwise like it. Her skin is flaking like crazy and her fur looks dull and is falling out in clumps. In fact, just last week I looked at her and thought to myself, OMG she looks like she is malnourished. What is up with that?? So right there listed as a cause of both low albumin and low BUN is lack of protein and malnutrition :eek:! OMG, I've been knocking myself out trying to find a healthy food for her and instead maybe I've been starving her of nutrients. :o

Sooooo...my head is swimming, but I need a plan of action and "easy" sounds best to me. So the first easy thing is a urinalysis. If that is OK and she isn't positive for protein, I'll feel like I can go ahead and try increasing her protein intake for a couple of months and then retest. If the results are still goofy, then do a bile acids test. And then go from there. Does that make sense?

One last question for my "urine experts" (if you've had the patience to wade through this whole post...), does the sample need to be the first pee of the morning or does it not matter?

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

One last question for my "urine experts" (if you've had the patience to wade through this whole post...), does the sample need to be the first pee of the morning or does it not matter?

Marianne

Since you would want the urinalysis done first the urine should be collected at the first pee of the morning.

I also found an abstract where urine samples were collected in dogs by cystocentesis and with the free catch method and then compared, I will quote just the conclusion:
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The UPC ratio in dogs was minimally affected in urine samples collected by free catch, thus allowing correct grading of proteinuria with this method. The high reliability of the UPC ratio in free-catch urine samples coupled with the ease of collection should increase the use of this value for assessment of proteinuria

Comparison of urine protein-to-creatinine ratio in urine samples collected by cystocentesis versus free catch in dogs (http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.236.11.1221?journalCode=javma)


So the first easy thing is a urinalysis. If that is OK and she isn't positive for protein, I'll feel like I can go ahead and try increasing her protein intake for a couple of months and then retest. If the results are still goofy, then do a bile acids test. And then go from there. Does that make sense?

Sounds like a really good plan to me.

Love and hugs to you both, Lori

[labblab]

Lori, thanks a million for the citation -- and also your post about the pee sample collector! I'm gonna go fish around in hubby's golf bag right now. :D

[Harley PoMMom]

Been doing some google searching for proteinuria and found this article quite interesting:August 2012 | ANTECH Insights | ANTECH Diagnostics (http://antechdiagnostics.com/Main/ANTECHInsights/August-2012-11.aspx)
Introduction
In this issue, we highlight important pieces of the renal disease diagnostic puzzle. While many veterinary hospitals routinely rely on urine dipstick followed by confirmatory SSA testing to screen for proteinuria in both ill and healthy patients, peer-reviewed research published in the past two years has demonstrated the poor overall diagnostic utility of these tests and the importance of pairing them with more sensitive & specific quantitative tests for proteinuria. In particular, these tests have poor sensitivity for detecting microalbuminuria (MA), a key biomarker for the presence of underlying disease with secondary glomerular damage, and the progression of chronic kidney disease (CKD) in both dogs and cats. We hope our discussion of MA testing prompts discussion in your practice regarding its appropriate role in early disease detection and kidney disease screening, monitoring and management.

...Q: How does microalbuminuria (MA) testing compare to the urine dipstick, SSA test, and UP/C ratio?

A: Generally speaking, microalbuminuria testing such as the quantitative MA tests offered by ANTECH (species-specific turbidometric immunoassays) is much more sensitive and specific for albuminuria than the urine dipstick, SSA test or UP/C ratio, per the recent JAVMA study published by S. Lyon et al1 (partial summary of results below).



Hmm, I gather from this article that testing microalbuminuria levels may be a better marker for proteinuria that the UPC.

[labblab]

Wow, thanks so much for this info, Lori, especially in advance of me taking in a urine sample. I will definitely plan to read more about the testing over the weekend and then maybe brainstorm a bit with my vet next week before proceeding further. Given Peg's lab values, this may be a better route to go.

Also, started tinkering with one of hubby's golf clubs yesterday afternoon. As soon as he came in the door from work, he spotted it over in the corner with the clubface draped in blue painters' tape and a little plastic dish. When I told him what I was doing, this is how he looked: :eek: :eek: :eek:, and he said "I can't believe you're gonna let Peg pee on my golf club!!!!!!" But he loves his big little girl so much that I think he'll go along with the plan if I can just make it work. ;) :p

[molly muffin]

Great info Lori!

Marianne, I salute your innovation and creative tendencies.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

I would have loved to see that look on hubby's face!:eek::eek::D:D:D

[molly muffin]

You know Kathy, I wouldn't have minded seeing that either. ;)

Sharlene and molly muffin

[Trish]

LOL girls are so much harder to collect from than boys!! I always get a sterile specimen jar and get Flynn to pee direct into that. I try get a mid stream sample as sediment if present usually in the first part of the stream. Same thing we do with humans. My vet has had told me he has had spurious results and when he has gone into it with the pet owner some of the methods of collection have left a bit to be desired, for example one collected it in the roasting pan and they they were surprised with excessive protein and fat droplets showing up :eek::eek::D:D So I would be really careful, if not able to get them to pee straight into a sterile jar, that you are using something VERY clean so not to contaminate the sample :)

I also collect first morning sample for UPC, I know it is not meant to make much difference but I have found in Flynn it does, when he drinks more it has altered his results, for the worse! I agree normal urinalysis, perhaps lab tested not the simple dipstick to get a better idea of microalbinuria as Loris suggest with that study. If that OK don't think I would persue UPC.

I would try the diet change too, I bet Peg will be happy with more protein!! :)

[labblab]

Sooo...Peg is barfing again :(. Behaviorally she seems perfectly fine including her appetite. Haven't had a chance to check poop yet this morning. But she threw up twice yesterday afternoon and once overnight. So we're back to chicken and rice for a couple of days, which she happily gobbled this morning. I've had a bunch of other stuff going on this week so hadn't yet taken in a pee sample. But I'll try to put the finishing touches on my golf club device over the weekend, and then go in for a chat with the vet next week.

On August 10th, it will be ten years since we released Barkis. And Peg will turn ten in September. Lots of tens. But Barkie didn't make it that far, himself. So I figure every day with Peg now is frosting on the cake! Overall, with all the problems she's had, she outwardly acts pretty darn good. I think for sure she has some kind of smoldering GI issue and maybe that will end up accounting for the protein imbalance, after all. But, you know, I'm not sure how hard I want to press anymore with the diagnostics. Easy stuff, for sure. But other than that, maybe not so much. Especially this time of year, it is really hard for me to make those trips in to the vet, and she now gets so scared herself. I know how diligent you all are about checking things out, so I hope you won't think too poorly of me if I decide to forego involved diagnostics. But I don't want to lose sight of the forest for the trees by turning a microscope on everything that might be wrong. As long as she seems to be feeling like herself, I really want to just enjoy our days together. I know that something is not quite right, but I'd rather not dwell on it if that makes any sense. I'd like to do things differently this time around...

I can clean the carpet and I'm a pro at chicken-and-rice, that's for sure! So hopefully this will be a short-lived issue and I can get that pee sample in, and we can see if there are some easy answers. I like easy. Easy is good. :o

[addy]

It makes perfect sense to me. I hope to do the same with Koko.

I am sorry to hear sweet Peg has an upset tummy and I hope it is short lived. I sure am glad she loves her chicken and rice.:)

We used to purchase sterile plastic urine cups at the hospital supply store. I had a new pie tin that I washed really well and then tried to sterilize it with super hot water. Zoe would pee into the pie tin and then I would transfer it to the sterile cup, refrigerate the cup and also keep it cold until we got to the vet. I took the first urine of the day and made sure her I dropped off the sample within four hours. Sometimes we did draw with a needle too but I tried to keep that to a minimum.

Feel better soon sweet Peg.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,

That is exactly what I would try to do this time around too. More enjoyment and less stress and fretting.;) You have learned so much about what you would like to do differently when the time comes. That was a another gift that Barkis shared with you. ;)

Poor Peg and that sensitive little tummy of hers. I hope it resolves quickly and she's feeling better in no time.

Big soothing hugs,

[Harley PoMMom]

But I don't want to lose sight of the forest for the trees by turning a microscope on everything that might be wrong. As long as she seems to be feeling like herself, I really want to just enjoy our days together.

Marianne, I think focusing on lovin and cuddlin with sweet Peg makes perfect sense too.

Love and Hugs, Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

Marianne, I have read your post several times, usually in tears. And I agree wholeheartedly with spending quality time with Peg. I firmly believe my decision to stop all intervention on Squirt's behalf and simply letting her enjoy her days gave us much more time together. Her stress level dropped dramatically and we were able to truly enjoy each other and our time remaining...tho Peg isn't near as debilitated as Squirt was when I made that decision. ;)

[molly muffin]

Quality time is the best time of all and I fully support your decision to just take it as it comes, do the small things to keep things feeling good for her and focus on the bigger picture.

hugs
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Oh Marianne,

Once I knew that Buddy was terminal, I would burst out crying every time I looked into his eyes. :o I so wish I could have seen beyond my own grief and enjoy him more while he was still with me. Yes, I do think we can get so wrapped up in research and doing intensive diagnostics, that it's easy to lose sight of what is most important. Cuddle time, belly rubs, hiding socks from your hubby ( I remember ;)) and watching TV on the couch together. Yes. all of those things and much more. Savor every moment because we don't get them back and they have to last a lifetime. Our babies are such precious gifts that we only have for a very short period. It is never long enough.

[Trish]

Hi Marianne

It is strange how out the blue they can do a little up chuck, Flynny did it the other day and he had been eating grass. I think for some of these dogs with dodgy tummies it is just par for the course. Plus if Peg is anything like Flynn he would gobble down yuck things on his walks if he gets half the chance so I don't tend to worry too much about the odd puke if they seem OK otherwise. Hope Pegs poops were good.

I agree weighing up the benefits of testing is important, thinking about what you will do if a scan or biopsy etc come back with results that are not positive. If it is not in the pets best interests then totally agree with you to treat with loving :D:) I would not have had Flynn's IBD biopsied but the opportunity came up when he went to have the last liver mass removed. Same with the kidney biopsy. Really with both of those biopsies, it did confirm diagnosis but did not change the treatment we were giving. So no real benefit there in the long run.

I certainly don't think bad of you for your choices Marianne, you know Peg best. It does not sound like she is on any downward spiral so plenty of time to enjoy your girl!! You're actually doing what I would do anyways :D:D so all good, horses for courses my Mum always says!

Oh, I did think that postponing any urine testing until she is good might be the way to go! Have a good weekend Marianne! xxx

[Trish]

Hey Marianne, Peg and Luna!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS XXXXX

Hope you have a lovely holiday season!! xxxx

[labblab]

Aw Trish, thanks so much for the well wishes!

I'm feeling a bit down-hearted this morning, though, as we are not having as good a start to the new year as I would have hoped. I had kind of put Peg's diagnostics on hold these last couple of months because for the most part, she had been doing well -- no GI issues for a while, and most every morning she had been happy and eager for her walks at the lake. Recently, we'd been noticing gradually increasing stiffness and reluctance to climb stairs, but nothing shocking. But this week, she is really hobbling, so something has shifted or worsened. We took her in to the vet yesterday, since it is also time for her phenobarb level/labwork. As is typical, she was not so bad there :rolleyes: and the physical exam didn't show anything remarkable, but she did slide on their slick tile floor and also tripped and fell getting into the car to come home. So today she is again limping horribly. :( :(

We talked with the vet about NSAIDS being a bad combo with the phenobarb, but if her liver results are still OK on Monday, I will start some limited meds on a PRN basis since we are talking quality of life here. We also finally got a urine sample this time, so we will see if that shows anything and also we will be looking at that albumin level in hopes that it is not getting worse. So we will just plod through the weekend and hope that maybe she'll be feeling better with some rest, or at least that I can give her some Previcox on Monday.

I will update when the test results are in. I was going to hold off on posting at all until then, but I know you guys will understand why I am feeling badly for my girl. She does not understand why she is having trouble walking and why she cannot go out and run and play with Luna. This is also my first personal experience with doggie aging issues, because Barkis did not make it that far in his life :o.

Just wishin' this morning that I could turn back the clock, for oh so many reasons...

[molly muffin]

Oh Marianne! Of course you are worried and it is distressing any time we see our precious furbabies not being able to do the things they have always done. We just want to fix it, it's what we do and we want to do it now, yesterday.
So you are thinking this is probably joints, arthritis, age related? It does sound like it.
We'll be anxiously awaiting the test results with you.

Big hugs, hoping for good news on Monday!

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Marianne,

Sorry to hear that sweet Peg is having some problems :( Hoping and praying that our dear girl is feeling more like herself real soon.

Hugs, Lori

[judymaggie]

Marianne -- so sorry to hear that Peg isn't feeling so good. Hopefully, rest will help.

[Budsters Mom]

Hi Marianne,

I am sorry to hear that Peg has been struggling. Have you tried a natural anti-inflammatory such as coconut oil? It can be used both internally and externally. I take it and give it to Rosie daily. She has not had an allergy flareup since we started the coconut a few months ago. Of course, this is not allergy season either and her allergies are not as severe as Buddy's were.

I know that Peg is prone to pancreatitis attacks, that's why you have her on a low-fat feed. Coconut oil would definitely be increasing her fat consumption. I also don't know whether it can be taken with phenobarbital. It would probably be safe to use it externally by rubbing it on her painful joints. It might be worth asking the vet about;)

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

http://everydayroots.com/coconut-oil-uses

Please keep us posted.

[labblab]

Thanks guys, and thanks for the suggestion, Kathy. Certainly I have nothing to lose by trying it externally!

To add to Peg's woes, right now is the height of allergy season for her and she has generated a big lick granuloma on her left leg and I just now found a raw interdigital lump that she has licked on her left paw. I had been trying to keep her leg taped up, but now with the raw paw, I need to revert back to keeping a sock on which is always tough. Some time back, Addy kindly linked me to a site that tells you how to make "leggings" out of socks and an elastic cord that goes across the back. I will try to hunt that up again and this time, actually give it a try. It will definitely be a nuisance because we are in for quite a stretch of rainy weather and so the whole contraption will have to go on-and-off every time she goes outside to relieve herself. But if it will just allow her leg to heal up, that will be huge.

I gotta tell you, it's times like this that I am so jealous of y'all with the tiny doggies that you can just pick up and transport around. Our vet has Labs, too, and yesterday he and I were bemoaning how hard it is to deal with mobility issues with the big dogs. We both agreed that we think our days of having big sporting dogs is drawing to a close -- it's gonna be somebody more "portable" for us both the next time around! :o

[Tina]

Marianne,
I am so sorry to read that Peg is having a tough time right now. I guess my suggestions would include glucosamine and fish oil. You probably already have her taking those things, but just thought I would mention it. I had really good luck with my angel Dakota giving her Cosequin DS along with Welactin fish oil.

While I have not had to deal with lick spots directly, my friends Lab gets those quite a bit and I have tried to help when that happens. Something that I use on Jasper's nose when it has been cracked and bleeding is a balm called Snout Soother. I have also used this from time to time on the pads of his feet when they crack and he was trying to lick. I know that's a different problem than what Peg is experiencing, but I suggested this to my friend whose Lab had the lick spots, and he felt that it helped significantly. Of course you would need to try to keep the area covered as well, but you would probably be doing that anyway. The Snout Soother really helps things heal and it also seems to relieve the pain. And the ingredients are all natural.

http://www.naturaldogcompany.com

It's understandable that you're feeling down in the dumps, it's so hard to see these changes happen, and so hard to see them struggling in any aspect. Hopefully this will just be temporary for Peg. And I so understand your thoughts and feelings about the mobility issues with big dogs, and the benefits in that area of having a small dog that you can carry. I have had to face those issues myself, and have smaller dogs now largely due to that reason. :o

How are you feeling? It seems like I often get ear involvement now whenever I get any type of bad upper respiratory issue, so I feel your pain there. I hope that nasty cold is finally gone and you are feeling better.

And I am hoping Peg feels better with some rest through the weekend. You could also try a hot water bottle or heating pad set on low on her sore joints, that might help if she will lay down long enough to keep it on there for a while. I will be watching for her test results.

Big hugs,
Tina and Jasper xo