Coco, Miniature dachshund - sweet Coco has passed

[addy]

Somtimes the vets look at the obvious that which is standing in front of them and dont think past that, or to use an old cliche, think to look outside the box.

Worms can also be responsible for his poor coat.

I am crossing everything that Coco continues to improve.

[molly muffin]

I think sometimes that once they say Cushings, then they never look beyond cushings for any other problems that might be going on. They just attribute everything to cushings and it's just not always so.
I think this is a lesson for all of us to be reminded of.
I think it's awesome that Coco is already looking better and I hope it just continues on and on and on.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

OMG it was worms!?!? So hope the meds kick them into touch and Coco finally starts to put a bit of weight back on and the tummy settles down xxx

[infoviewer]

Well seems like the worm was not the cause of CoCo's loose stool. One firm stool in the morning and then had two loose stools this afternoon. Just eating Hill's ID food nothing else.I am at a loss what to do and evidently vets know nothing except the ID food. He does not seem sick. It just seems like he would not be getting enough nutrients. Takes the Metronidazole q12h. Is there never a day that we don't have something to be concerned about with these sweet dogs. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

Yep there was a day, but it was about 478 days ago unfortunately :D:D:D

Least he is not feeling sick, is it just due to his cushing meds rather than IBD??

[molly muffin]

Oh fiddle sticks. Well, see how he does tomorrow morning. Still have to get rid of the worms though, as you know they are there now.

How long do you give that medicine for? Could it be upsetting his tummy also?

Hang in there Joanne!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Harley PoMMom]

There is an illness called Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI) when a dog's pancreas loses its ability to make the necessary enzymes to digest food. A dog with this disease will lose weight even though they are eating enough. A dog's stool will look like a "cow patty," here is a site that explains EPI well and has a pic showing how the stool looks: http://www.epi4dogs.com/

Love and hugs, Lori

[infoviewer]

Hey Lori: I read the EPI article. CoCo does not have undigested food in his stool, but it does seem like it is food related. First stool of the day is normal, then has a loose stool several hours later and then another one later on. He seems to feel well and looks like he has gained weight, so it is a real mystery. I feed him small meals throughout the day of the Hill's ID and nothing else. He takes 20 mg of Trilostane. I have withheld it a couple of days, then 10 mg in the morn and 10 mg a few hours later. Nothing seems to matter. The specialist thought he might be B12 deficient and I did notice his vitamin does not have B12 in it, but she was mostly interested in taking him off the Trilostane and starting the Lysodren after 30 days. She also stated he was atypical instead of typical, but his cortisol was 43 when he was first tested, so I don't think so. Oh well, guess I will just continue to research. He is still a happy bossy dachshund. Thanks for the info. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: It was a one time dewormer. I think maybe you can give it monthly. I was so horrified, that I have not really talked to my regular vet about it. Of course dogs eat anything outside they can find and we do have lots of squirrels and rabbits running around, not many cats around that I have seen and he does like to eat dead grass so anything could be in it. He seems to feel and look ok, I just don't like the looks of the stool and I check every one to make sure no hitchhikers in it. Glad all of you got back from your aunt's funeral safe and Molly is looking spiffy with her new hairdo. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Trish: I have thought that CoCo had IBD all along and thought that the Hill's ID would correct it, but has not so far. I had given him FortiFlora earlier and thought I gave him too much and that is what started the upset stomach, but just cannot seem to get a handle on it. Does not seem to bother him. He just goes along his merry way, trying to keep people and cars away from his fenced in area with his loud barking and running up and down the fence, not as fast as when he was a pup, but still like a guard dog. Dachshunds are great hunters and guard dogs, all of his 12 pounds. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Hi Sweetie,

Well, I am sorry to read we are back to square one. Usually the first stool normal, deteriorate throughout the day is typical of colitis. Have you ever tried a fish and sweet potato limited ingredient diet with Coco? The ID is a highly highly digestible food but maybe he needs more fiber. I think Trish gives Flynn some kind of metmucil for extra fiber which may be something you could discuss with your vet. They could never figure out Zoe's issues either but in the beginning, she did not lose weight, it was just when she got really sick that happened. It wasn't until they did biopsies
they found the different bacteria. Since Zoe always responded to Metronidazole she was diagnosed with antibiotic responsive inflammatory bowel disease and helicobacter infection.

Helicobacter can treated with metronidazole, Pepito bisthmal and amoxicllin for two weeks.

There are other more powerful drugs to be tried which I have discussed with our vets and I hope I never have to get there to use them but one steroid which is not absorbed as well so has less side effects compared to other steroids is budesonide.



Dietary changes may be helpful and may limit the amount of medication you need to give your dog. Omega 3 Fatty acids may help decrease intestinal inflammation. There are many highly digestible, hypoallergenic and bland diets available. These diets are free of preservatives, additives and coloring agents, and contain protein sources such as cheese, rabbit, venison, cottage cheese, or duck, or contain proteins that are hydrolyzed into small non-antigenic component molecules. It can take several months to see improvement. Some dogs with IBD see improvement with high fiber diets. Others do better when fiber is reduced. In addition, some dogs have less diarrhea when the fat content in their diet is reduced. It can be hard to tell which is beneficial since high fiber diets (typically designed for pet to lose weight) are also lower in fat.

The other theory is that Cush dogs are prone to infection and the may need better control of their cortisol. It would seem on the surface that may not be the issues as Coco does not respond to the metronidazole.

I hate to say this but the specialist you saw has made some concerning remarks that make no sense so my "vet radar is on high alert".

I'm sorry you continue to struggle so. I walk in the same shoes and the diet Zoe does best on she cant have because of her kidneys so I'm not sure which will end of being the biggest problem in the end.

[infoviewer]

I know Addy, he just seems fine and plays and seems to have gained since the dreaded worm, so if I could get the second or third poop firm, I would not worry that something is wrong. You are right about the specialist, I just tuned her out when she started talking about atypical Cushings and more complicated testing. She sent a report to my regular vet, but he was gone yesterday when I went for more medicine and food, another 200.00. I believe I have spent about 1500.00 in the last week and a half and still do not know what the poop problem is. I do not want him to have the biopsy since he is almost 12 and she did discover the heart murmur. The soft poop does not seem to bother him, just me. I am just waiting and watching for something worse to happen, like all of us do with Cushpups. Glad KoKo's physical and dental went well and Zoe has nothing new to contend with. Have a good week. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

I'm back. I took Koko for a walk and did some thinking, trying to connect the dots.

We do have improvement- we have one firm stool a day. Sometimes the dewormer can cause loose stools. Sometimes it can take a few months with a food change to see results. Coco had the food change and subsequently ran into other issues at the same time which could have affected his stool. We had the lizard, tape worms, dewormer medication, etc. All these things can affect his gastro system. So since we have a bit of improvement, maybe we need to stay the course and hope for no more "bumps in the road" to steer us of course to see where we are in another month or two. If we lose the one good stool a day then we need to rethink it.

Do you keep Coco on Heartguard all year round? If you think back, have you ever noticed his stools get worse after you give the Heartguard? Just thinking back to Zoe, she always got better in the winter and she did not get Heartguard in the winter.

Just my morning walk thoughts, JoAnne.:):):o



It can take several months to see improvement. Some dogs with IBD see improvement with high fiber diets. Others do better when fiber is reduced. In addition, some dogs have less diarrhea when the fat content in their diet is reduced

[addy]

forgot to add to the morning walk post- were you giving the metronidazole and forti flora at least two hours apart?

[infoviewer]

Addy: Thinking back, I think I gave the Metronidazole and FortiFlora together. I had tried the FortiFlora before and had the same outcome, but decided to try in again and accidently gave the whole envelope instead of just a tiny bit and he started actual diarrhea shortly afterwards. Now it is firm stool early, I think everything has had a chance to digest overnight and then maybe a soft stool later and then maybe one more. I have always kept a chart of all his medications, teeth brushing, etc., but did not keep a chart of the FortiFlora since I only gave it the one time. Now I keep a journal of everything from food to poop to medication trying to figure it out since the vets cannot. He does seem to be urinating more, so was thinking maybe higher cortisol or UTI, but he is able to sleep 6-7 hours at night without getting up, so what is up with that. It is challenging like my regular vet says. Thanks so much for your help. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: I don't give HeartGard in the Winter. If fact he is due for it in a few days but after the tapeworm incident and because HeartGard Plus and Drontal Plus have some of the same ingredients I have got ask the vet if it is ok to give it to him. He is very small and don't want to give him something that will be toxic to him. The vet was not in the office Saturday and the tech was not sure. Guess I will ge able to talk to the vet before it is due. So far so good on the poop today. I am addiing stuff one at a time trying to figure what is causing it if I can. Love, JoAnne

[Budsters Mom]

Hi JoAnne,
Seem like that our lives revolve around poop sometimes?:o So far the poop report is good for today. Gotta love that! ;) I hope it stays that way for a long time. How is Coco feeling otherwise? Big hugs,
Kathy

[infoviewer]

Hey Kathy: Yes our lives do resolve around poop control, at least that is the way it is with my Cushpup now. He had a firm stool this morning as usual, but I am always waiting for the rest of the day. Just hoping it does not get out of control. Hope your little buddy is ok this morning. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

HI Joanne, it is such a balancing act getting everything right. My IBD boy seems to have turned the corner and I get such a happy feeling when I see a good poop!! Hmmm I think that is highly unusual, I am nearly at the stage I will let him out on his own, not yet though haha I am too much of a control freak like most of us on here!! Poop patrol is a part of our lives and I don't even care if the neighbours spot me following him with a torch at night :D:D Fingers crossed for a good poop day for Coco! :)

[infoviewer]

Hey Trish: I do the same thing, flashlight in my hand and following CoCo with tongs and paper towel so I can examine it. Shall we say we are paranoid. I know I am. As I have said before, the stool tells a lot. If it is not me with a flashlight it is my husband. We just call CoCo the boss, since we have to watch him so closly now. Glad your furbaby is doing better. Makes me smile to hear good news. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

CoCo seems to be improving, only one soft stool the last two days and he looks like he may have gained a little. He seems to feel okay. He is still the prissy, bossy little dachshund. Eats well and plays with the one toy that he always plays with, a crying dog that he is killing. Still taking the Metronidazole and eating the Hill's ID food which the vet says continue and of course CoCo will eat anything. I am just hopeful he will continue to improve and maybe no castrophes for awhile. This is all we cushmoms can hope for. Reading everyones posts and hoping the best for all, especially Buddy since he seems to be in distress today. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

I am so happy to read that CoCo seems to be doing okay. Maybe even filling out a little bit. Every day is so precious. To see him doing good, is a joy to all of our hearts.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Sharlene. Every day is so precious with our sweet furbabies. We are watching him carefully and just hoping he will improve some every day. Hope Molly is still her sweet self. It is so amazing that she has no problem with the Cushings, I hope she never does. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

He is holding his own, sweet Coco, it seems, which is good to hear, JoAnne. He has been though a lot. A sad day today here on the forum, I hope you are okay.

Holding you close , Coco too.

[infoviewer]

I know Addy, really sad. So sorry Buddy is gone. Sometimes they just cannot pull out of it. My heart goes out to Kathy. It is so hard to lose our furbabies. Hard to lose another one on this forum. I hope you are doing ok today. Hold your babies close. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

CoCo has had a few bad days, too many soft stools. I cannot figure out what is causing it so I am starting back to square1. I am just going to feed him the Hill's ID and stop everything else and add his medication one at a time and see if I can figure out what is causing it if I can. He is so thin, but seems to feel okay. It is a cinch the vets that have seen him do not really know. Want to take him off his Trilostane for 30 days and try Lysodren. He is too weak for that and he is not atypical Cushing so I just dismissed that specialist. She finally did say just keep him on the Hill's and Metronidazole, but that is not working now, so wonder if he has antibiotic diarrhea. I let his stomach rest yesterday (which was horrible since he loves to eat), so just trying Hill's food today and I will add the other stuff carefully and hope for the best. We thought we had lost him, but he was up and ready to eat this morning. Wish me luck. Love, JoAnne

[spdd]

Sure hope Coco starts getting better quickly. I've pulled Keesh off everything and stools are perfect if there is such a thing. My thoughts are with you.

[molly muffin]

Oh JoAnn. I do hope that it helps to just start over.
Did you keep him off food for awhile and then start in real low. Is he able to or will he eat the chicken rice combo?
Poor Coco, he is just a trooper.
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: I started him on the chicken and rice and he got worse after that. He has been eating Hill's ID for 2-3 weeks without much help. I decided to try boiled chicken and rice mush and he really got bad, so now back to square 1, just the ID and no antibiotic or medicine to see if I can check it. Have only tried that today and still a soft stool, but not as bad as yesterday. I seem to have tried everything and the vets seem to have no other ideas. Just hoping for the best the next few days. Thanks for caring. He is really too weak and thin to be put in the hospital without constant care. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Try turkey. Some dogs are sensitive to chicken but turkey seems to work instead. That might be an option. I would just try a little bit to start with to see if he tolerates it. If so that would work well. Nothing else with it, no rice. So we know if it is the chicken or the rice. In fact, if he is sensitive to chicken, then no chicken in any food, including by product chicken.

Since you are going to try to go back to the beginning and see what works and what doesn't. I'd go with something along these lines.
Are you cutting out the trilostane for the time being too?

Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[labblab]

Hi JoAnne,

During the past 2-3 weeks, have you been feeding Coco only the Hill's ID, or had you been adding in other stuff too, like the chicken and rice? If he has never been solely on the ID all by itself, then I'd stick with that for a while and not add in anything else at all. If you add in other things, no matter how bland they may seem, then you are defeating the purpose of the ID food. If a dog is reacting to food sensitivities, then even one mouthful of something else can trigger a response.

Marianne

[infoviewer]

You are right Marianne that is what I tried to do, add the chicken and rice since the ID seems so bad, but it was the wrong thing to do and i realized it about halfway through the day yesterday, but too late, his little colon was already messed up, but he seems better this afternoon since he is back on the ID. He is so thin and bony and the ID just does not seem to have many nutrients, but better to stay away from the diarrhea if possible. Thanks for the info and caring. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Sweetie, I know you dont like that food and I understand why but I am here to tell you that it does have enough nutrients in it. I used it with Zoe for over a year and she gained weight on it and her vet at the time feed it to his IBD dog. I hated the food as much as you do and kept trying to find alternatives for it. Zoe's holistic vet who is also a nutritionist told me the canned ID was not as bad as some of them and Zoe could stay on it if I chose. She did not sell the food, she believed in and pushed raw diets, so she had nothing to gain from telling me that.

It can take 2-3 months after a food change, not 2-3 weeks. Please, please give it a chance or we will probably be looking at much stronger drugs for Coco.

If he is continuing to lose weight, I dont think you can totally blame the ID. I know how you feel, really, I felt the same way, I was obsessed with it.:o:o



Water, Turkey, Egg Product, Pork Liver, Rice, Whole Grain Corn, Rice Starch, Powdered Cellulose, Dried Beet Pulp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Caramel Color, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, L-Threonine, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Tryptophan, Taurine, Iron Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Cysteine, Magnesium Oxide, Beta-Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

Most canned food has water as the first ingredient, the second ingredient is turkey, a protein, egg product, could be worse, pork liver then rice, corn is fourth. Ok powdered cellulose, not that great, it does have salt, not so good, but look, even has some flaxseed.
Really, I have seen worse.:):):)

[infoviewer]

I know Addy, I am just obsessed with trying to get his stools firm and just hate for him to look so emaciated. I have been giving him a can a day, that is what all the vets said and of course he loves to eat so it is happy time for him. He does not seem to feel too bad. He looks much worse than he feels I think. Of course he is so spoiled and I am surprised he can even walk. He has had weakness in his back legs for a couple of years and he really walks slow except when it is time to eat. I know I have to give him the ID. I just wish he would gain a little weight back. He weighed 13 pounds I think when we discovered the Cushings 2 1/2 years ago and has lost every since, now 10 1/2 and that is small for a long dog. Oh well, we all do the best we can for these babies. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

How's Coco doing Joanne? Have you managed to stick to just the ID?? Hopefully he keeps on eating it, I remember when Flynn got put on a similar diet, I think it was Royal Canin GI, I had to stick to that only to let it all settle down and it did! So hopefully it will help Coco by limiting his proteins and letting his little tummy settled! :)

[infoviewer]

Hey Trish: Yes I am sticking to the ID and CoCo will eat anything so that is good. He seems some better, stools are still somewhat soft, but a little firmer and not as often. I am not giving him anything else as everyone has stated. I am just hoping he will gain a little weight, is so bony, but does not seem to bother him. Still tries to run if he happens to see a cat or squirrel in the yard. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

yay, glad to hear that it could be that CoCo is responding to the solo ID diet.
Hope to hear more good updates on his tummy. Poor little guy. It can't be any good to have the runs all the time. Maybe he'll even put on a few pounds.
Keep up the good work JoAnne!
hugs,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: His poop is better some days and worse others. I don't know why. We just are thankful for any improvement. Has not gained any weight yet we don't believe. He loves the ID food so that is good. He has always been a hungry dog. He is playing with a toy now. Does not play too much, just a little while at the time. We are just happy for any improvement in him. Glad Molly Muffin is doing ok and hope she has no more bad poops. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Any improvement is good news, JoAnne. Do you have to quarter his pills with a pill cutter? I do for Zoe. Some days she gets more, some less as I can never get them exact.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Some days, I think she finds more bunny poo on me, or gosh knows what else is in the dang grass, no matter how hard I watch and look.

Yesterday our big dog at work ate part of a plastic bag, I have no idea why and was trying to throw up. He went to munch on a plant in the office which is where I found him after hearing this horrible retching sound. He threw up the bag or at least part of it and my co worker put him out in the courtyard while I dutifully inspected the vomit and then cleaned it up. I went out to the courtyard to go into the factory to throw away the garbage and found him frantically eating a daylilly which I think are poisonous:eek::eek: I freaked out and yelled for someone to call our owner ( his dad) while I tried to pull all 140 pounds away from the plant.:eek::eek::eek:

No one could figure out why I was freaking out:o:o They told me, dont worry, he is fine, he eats junk all the time. I just went home all upset, shaking my head.

When I arrived at work today, big dog was perfectly fine:rolleyes:

[Budsters Mom]

I'm glad that Coco loves the food and that he's actually playing with toys. That s good news! sending you both lots of hugs and healing energy. Go Coco! Xxxxxxx

[infoviewer]

That is so funny Addy. Big dogs can eat anything I guess. My little dog cannot seem to eat anything and he is so hungry. I cannot understand why he is so skinny as much as he eats. It is bound to be something besides the Cushings and thyroid disease. I check his stool to make sure I see no more worms. He is so thin I don't believe he can have any more toxic dewormer even if he has another worm and the Drontal Plus is supposed to kill most worms I think. His abdominal ultrasound only showed all his organs were enlarged, no cancer and the specialist found a heart murmur. I don't think too much of her opinion since she thought he had atypical and wanted to take him off the Trilostane and put him on Lysodren. We just try to feed him every couple of hours and take care of him the best we can. He went to bed at 8:30 last night and was up by 1:30 and had to go out and poop. Of course he finally decided to go back to sleep. I don't think I can give him any nutritional thing with the ID. I just keep hoping and praying he will gain a little. Glad Zoe and KoKo are doing okay lately. You certainly need a break. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Thanks Kathy. We are like Addy, try to find one good thing a day. Really hard sometimes, but a good thing is that he is still here. So sorry you lost Buddy, but so glad you found Rosebud. There is so much happiness with a new puppy. Thanks so much for caring about CoCo. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

It just seems like this Hill's ID food is not working. CoCo still has these large pudding stools and seems to be just wasting away. Absolutely nothing except the ID food. I have been giving him his thyroid medication. The vets do not seem to know anything. I cut his Metronidazole in half and then quit since antibiotics sometimes cause diarrhea. I have tried taking things away and addiing one at a time and cannot figure out what is causing it. It just seems like it is what he eats. No other symptoms, just these large soft stools. He is not drinking much water, but I figure it is because of the water in the food. He wakes up at 1:30 or 2:00 at night and has to hurry outside. I am at my wits end. I feel so bad for the little dog. I think I have been trying to get this solved for 3 months and he occasionally will have a better stool, not good, just not pudding. Sorry, I am just venting. I always get up when he has to go and start all over again the next day. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

Hi Joanne
I wonder if your vets are clueless whether you should seek out a gastroenterologist specialist? When Flynnys tummy was poorly the next step was going to be starting him on meds to reduce any inflammation in his gut like sulphasalazine, I cannot remember if he has had imaging like ultrasound to see what is happening in there? Does he need biopsy to diagnosie what is going on. Would hydrolysed diet help? So many things to think of which is why I would be seeking further help and advice from a specialist if the normal things like ID diet, metronidazole are not helping?
So sorry to hear he is not doing well, hard to watch when they are losing condition too
xx

[infoviewer]

Thanks Trish: I took him to a gastro vet. No help at all. Just ID food and Metronidazole and an ultrasound that really showed nothing and possibly an endoscopic biopsy, but he is too weak to be put under anesthesia and also has an enlarged heart and heart murmur. I just feel so bad for him. He loves to eat and will eat anything you give him. We always go out with him so we know he never eats anything except the ID food. The vet prescribed Centrine, but they don't work and one vet said Lomotil could cause the diarrhea. I just keep thinking something is going to work. I had read something about the protein diet, but who knows if any of the vets I take him to know anything about it. I am just venting and have been up since 1:30 this morning so I am pretty tired. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

Well if the ID is not working then I think I would be going back and asking what else?? You read the articles on bowel problems and there seems to be heaps of different things to try? I appreciate the tiredness, it is awful when you are sleep deprived. Big hugs for you xx

[infoviewer]

Thanks Trish: I just feel like I am fighting a losing battle and cannot understand it. I guess his stool is some better. At times it has been liquid and now it is more like pudding. I have worked in the medical field for 30 or more years and I know humans can give you more information than an animal and it is hard to get a handle on their conditions sometimes.I just want to fix the little fellow and cannot seem to do it. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Did the stools turn to pudding before or after you halved the metronidazole?

There are other drugs that can treat inflammatory bowel disease if in fact that is what Coco has. Are you anywhere near a vet school or could there be a chance to discuss again with the specialist?


http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=724688


Corticosteroids: Prednisone, dexamethasone, and prednisolone are used to decrease inflammation and are very effective in lessening or eliminating the signs of IBD. However, they can have a number of serious side effects, including weight gain, fluid retention, liver changes, and suppressed immune system. A newer corticosteroid showing promise is budesonide (Entocort? EC). This drug is marketed to treat Crohn's disease in people. Budesonide may cause less of the systemic side effects associated with corticosteroid use.

Cyclosporine and azathioprine: These are powerful anti-cancer medications that have been known to cause pancreatitis, bone marrow and liver problems, and should be managed carefully through frequent laboratory tests.

Sulfasalazine (5-ASA, Salazoprin, Azulfidine) a sulfa antibiotic is also used as an immune suppressant. While it has anti-inflammatory effects, it is poorly absorbed so it does not have the level of side effects that steroids have and thus is often tried before resorting to cortiocosteroids. Sulfasalazine can affect the glands of the eyes causing permanent dry eye or keratoconjunctivis sicca (KCS). Similar drugs that may be less likely to cause KCS include Olsalazine and Mesalamine.

budesonide is one we discussed with Zoe's IMS. Maybe you have to throw a really big fit at the vet's office and demand help NOW and make them focus on the loose stool, nothing else.

hugs, sweetie

[molly muffin]

Oh JoAnne, super big hugs. This must be so frustrating for you when all you wish for him is a nice solid stool and some weight back on.
I don't know what the answer is either, but we will certainly be here, racking our brains and doing research to try to help find answers.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy and Sharlene: I am not near a vet school. It seems that all of the vets I have taken him to just continue to do the same thing with every dog. I know it is the same with the medical doctors i have worked for, they do the same thing for all patieints, prescribe the same medication, perform the same tests, especially the ones that make them the most money. Sorry I am just disillusioned with the medical profession lately. I cannot understand why I have to tell them what to do. It seems that CoCo possibly has lost the enzymes in his pancreas to digest the food. He is so thin. His stool is not gray and is brown, but just too soft. I am wondering if anyone has ever used the pancreatic enzymes you can get at the pet store or on line. Just wondering if they would do harm. I have not even been giving him the dog vitamins with the ID food, trying to give it a chance to help and possibly it has, it is just strange the he wakes up at 1:30 or 2:00 at night and has a soft stool. could be habit now. He never uses it in the house. That is something to be thankful for. The weight loss is the most worrisome since he is so small anyway. Sorry for ventiing, just trying to fix him. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: My main vet did discuss Budesonide with me, but we have just been afraid to use it. It just seems everythng that we do makes him a little thinner and weaker. I appreciate all the information and caring I get on this forum. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hope everyone has a great weekend. I always hope the morning will bring some firm poos for my sweet puppy. I guess I just have to keep working with him and his vet. My whole family has been in New York on vacation and they come back tomorrow, so hoping for a safe trip home. My daughter just sent a picture of the 911 memorial
l so I have to put my thoughts somewhere else besides on my sick dog. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

JoAnne, I am so sorry you are having such a difficult time and I totally understand your worry about Coco's weight loss. We saw some improvement a few weeks ago so I am trying to understand the events from then until now. You had changed absolutely nothing and he went to liquid poo?

(((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: CoCo has really just had soft poo for awhile. It was liquid probably two months ago. I really cannot remember. I keep a journal of everything I give him and just cannot put my finger on what is causing it. I thought it was the Metronidazole so I cut it in half and no difference. Yesterday no antibiotic and no difference. I had tried no Cushing medicine, but continued his thyroid medicine and no difference. Yesterday I tried half his Vetoryl and his thyroid and he had a soft stool before bed and got up at 1:45 with a soft stool. That is the last one today and it is 8:00 a.m. and I have fed him a couple of small meals of the ID food this morning. I guess I will just try giving him the food today and no medications. He almost has to have the thyroid since his thyroid was low a couple of weeks ago, but the vet was concerned about increasing it. I know it is something he is taking, but I just cannot figure it out. Sometimes he will just have maybe one soft stool a day, but yesterday he had 3 and one at 1:45, so I just figured we are not going to get a handle on it. Just wondering if maybe he needs digestive enzymes, since maybe his pancreas is not producing the right amount and he has malabsorption I just feel he is too weak to be put to sleep to do an endoscopy. Oh well, just keep trying. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Addy: This is what confuses me so much.mush stool at 1:45 this morning and he has only had the ID food and water since then and had a firm stool at 9:45. Oh well, every firm stool gives me hope. Love, JoAnne

[Tina]

Hi JoAnne,
I'm not sure if I have posted to you before in the past, but I always read and stay up to date on CoCo's thread. I am so sorry that he has been been having so much trouble. My Jasper has had problems with colitis and loose stools off and on, but it became more problematic after he got Cushings. And then with the kidney issues. I remember well when we struggled to get Jasper settled and tolerating a kidney diet that did not cause colitis or just plain loose stools. It was so frustrating and worrisome, and it wasn't anywhere near the amount of time that you and your baby have been dealing with it.

I have been meaning to post to you for so long, and I only have minute now. But I want to go back and re-read your thread to refresh my memory on everything, and will be back later. I am not sure I will have anything to add that others haven't provided, but like I said, Jasper has had many struggles with loose poops. Maybe there is something that I can add that might help your little guy. Just one question that comes to my mind now - does CoCo have any problem with high cholesterol or triglycerides? I remember my vet saying that some of Jasper's issues were exacerbated due to being lipemic.

Ok, I have some things to do, but I will be back after I re-read your thread and compare some things. It might not be until later today. ;)

Hugs from me and Jasper

[addy]

Ok we have a mushy stool in the middle of the night, breakfast and water and now a decent stool.

Do you know how many times and when he pooed yesterday and the consistency of each stool? What did he have tast night, ID and water for dinner? What time was dinner? Did he have anything else?

When you say mushy stool, is it formed? How is it formed? IS it one big mushy cowpie? Does it have any smaller pieces anny kind of tail?What color is it? Does it have any mucus in it? Does it have an odd smell , not a normal poo smell but kind of a bad, strange smell?

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: Friday morning-2 am mushy stool, we call it brown pudding, has all these little white things in it, it is what is in the ID food, not worms, small serving of ID food at 4 a.m. and at 5:30 a.m., and 7:30 a.m., thyroid medicine at 8:00 a.m., Vetoryl 10 mg at 8:a.m. ID 10:30 a.m., ID at 1:30 p.m.,. soft stool at 2:00 p.m., ID at 4:00 p.m., soft stool at 5:00 p.m. bed at 8:00 pm That was all Friday.

Soft stool at 1:45 a.m. Saturday morning, ID at 2:30, 4:30, 6:30 and 9:30 all small servings, good stool at 9:45, ID 11:30 and 1:30, now a mushy stool at 1:45. Stools are brown and mushy and we have to use the hose pipe to wash the grass. No strnge smell. I check every stool to make sure there are no worms. He has had Drontal Plus and also HeartGard, I am really puzzled. Seems like the only thing is the food. I give him small meals at a time since all the vets said give him a whole can of food a day since he is so thin. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Addy: Sometimes it does have a little mucus. It is not a squirty liquid poo, it just comes out soft and with all these little white things in it, I looked at the ID food and they are in the food, so whatever that is he does not digest it. I thought he might have something wrong with the pancreas and needed pancreatic enzymes. They do not have it at my vet's office or pet store. I am sure I can find it on line, but guess they could be dangerous if he did not get the right amount, but all the vets that he sees don't seem to know what is wrong and one is a gastro doctor. Lots of info to digest so to speak. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hi Tina: Any information would be appreciated. I am just completely confused. He has always had a sensitive stomach and had several spells of diarrhea, but Metronidazole always controlled it, just cannot seem to find anything to control the soft stools. It is not diarrhea, just soft cowpie as they say poos, brown, not gray. He is so thin so the bowel upset will get him rather than the Cushing's and he has thyroid disease also. Just not doing any good at all. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

It could be the rice in the food he cannot digest. What was he eating before the ID? How has his stools changed since you stopped his regular food?

Is there a way to try feeding him less frequently? It sounds like maybe he is pooing 3-5 times per day.

I have a question, I know you tried to supplement this food with chicken and rice and I think he got worse, if I remember correctly.

This product has turkey, egg and pork liver for the protein sources. When Zoe was first switched to a raw turkey diet, we could only feed her turkey. We bought a turkey breast at the store, had them debone it, take the skin off of it and we roasted it on a rack in the oven so any fat would drip off. We supplemented that for Zoe's "treats".

I am wondering what would happen if we cut down on the frequency of the ID and tried giving him just cooked white turkey for his snacks. Maybe he cannot tolerate a whole can of the food because of the rice. We would not be introducing a new protein. You would just start out with little tiny pea size pieces, not alot. Maybe figure a piece about the size of a quarter.

I dont want him to get sicker, I dont want to tell you to do something that may hurt him. I guess I am just trying to brainstorm how to get some weight on him without his stools getting worse.

He may be absorbing some of the nutrients in the food, he is not pooing 6-8 times a day of watery squirty poos. Usually if it is IBD with weight loss, they look at the small intestine. By feeding him so frequently we keep pushing that food through and inflaming it more if that is in fact inflamed.

I dont know his full history, JoAnne, so I am just throwing things out there.

[infoviewer]

Well he ate a little ID at 3:15 and had a runny poo at 4:00. Worst he has had in awhile. Guess I will give him Metronidazole and see if that will stop it or make it worse. It has to be the food since that is all he has had today, ID and water. It seems like any food will do it. I am at my wit's end now. Took him to the speciality hospital and the gastro doctor did no more than my regular vets. Just give him Metronidazole and ID. and the last time I gave him the Metronidazole I thought that caused antibiotic diarrhea so he has not had any since Thursday night. Wish me luck. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

He only had the one runny poo and has gone to sleep. I have not given him any of his medication today so evidently it is not the thyroid or Vetoryl that is causing it. No Metronidazole until a few minutes ago since Thursday. So probably feeding him too frequently and the transit time in his gut is too short. So might not be the ID food, could be any if I fed it at such short intervals and probably too much food. He was only eating 1 cup of food before this started and it was kibble. I just asked my husband if we should take him to the emergency hospital, but he said no and he is probably right. He is pretty weak and the stress might kill him. He has never been a free feeder. In fact when he was younger he only ate 1/2 cup of food a day. I so appreciate your thoughts and info. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

You might be right. Too much food at too short of intervals, it is just going right through him.
I hope maybe cutting back on that even while using the ID food, would maybe help with the poops. Are you going to try that JoAnne?

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Simba's Mom]

Hey Joanne, sorry to hear that Coco is having problems with food and poo, poor thing....Simba has tummy issues too, he was on prednisone for while and now he is on his trilostane, seems like his system is chaotic..he would poo every time he went outside, but started getting better once we started the trilostane, now it's worse again, I hope and pray they find something to help our fur babies, take care hon, sending hugs....

[Tina]

Hi JoAnne,
I just went through your entire thread and I'm sorry to say that most of the brainy ideas I had in my head you have tried. I do have a few thoughts and questions though.

It looks like you have been feeding CoCo only the I/D food and nothing else, right? How long has he been getting only the I/D? I'm looking for consecutive days. Also, I read that he had been off the metronidazole since Thursday until today when he had a bad poop. It seems like it has been kind of sporadic with the dosing. Has there been a two week period where CoCo received the metronidazole at the full dose twice a day with no misses or decreased doses? When Jasper was so sick, that is what my vet said, to give it to him for 2 solid weeks with no interruption or tapering of doses.

I also am wondering if maybe feeding CoCo less frequently might help. I was also thinking if the I/D isn't working for him, there are other prescription GI formula diets available that you could discuss with your vet. There is Purina EN, I know it comes in canned and dry kibble. Royal Canin also has a couple of different GI formulas. One of those might be more easily tolerated. When Jasper had all his trouble the last time (before the kidney stuff started), he didn't respond so well to the canned I/D for whatever reason even though it had always worked perfectly before. That time we ended up getting him stabilized on the Hills I/D Low Fat formula (that's another that you might consider). It worked and he did well on that for a while until the kidney problem reared its ugly head, and then we had the struggle of switching him to a renal diet.

I asked if he has elevated cholesterol or triglycerides in my last post. I read early in your thread that he had high cholesterol. Is that accurate, and how high is it? It is possible that this could be a factor also.

As far as the tapeworm, I wonder if he got it from eating the lizard. I am pretty sure that they eat slugs and fleas that carry tapeworms, so CoCo could have got it that way. And does the Drontal need to be repeated to make sure that it kills all cycles of the worms?

As far as the FortiFlora, you mention in several places that you thought you maybe gave too much and it caused diarrhea. How much were you giving? Others mentioned that maybe another probiotic might work better. That may be something to consider.

Does he drink enough water? I worry about dehydration with the loose stools.

Well, those are my thoughts JoAnne. Probably not much help, but I wanted to try. I just feel so bad for your little guy. I remember how awful and worrisome it was when Jasper went through this, and even now I check every poop and probably always will. As Marianne has said, I feel that we are always one poop away from disaster.

Sorry to get back to you so late, I ended up having friends over most of the day and evening.

Big Hugs,
Tina

[infoviewer]

Tina: CoCo has been on the ID food since 6/5/13, started bad diarrhea in 5/13 and has not really cleared up since then. Gave Metronidazole q12h and went to soft stools and has been soft stools since then with the exception of runny poo seems like every couple of weeks and then get it back to soft stools with Metronidazole and Lomotil or Centrine and the ID food. He usually weighed 12-13 pounds, now weighs maybe 10 and is so bony. His cholesterol was 267 in 6/13, not high, but was 520 in 6/12. I had always fed him Eukunuba and he had usually done well on it, but looking back, he did have several bouts of diarrhea over the years. I started looking at the ingredients and the second ingredient was corn, so tried to transition him to Blue Wilderness and he has still seemed to have a few spells of diarrhea, but always got firm again. I tried him on chicken and rice, i think about a month or so ago, same soft poos. The ID has rice and corn in it so I think that is what is upsetting him along with too frequent feeding. He is so thin, I have just been trying to keep him alive. He is so weak, staggers when he walks. I know it is the food that is causing the problem, but where do I go from here. I have tried pumpkin and slippery elm, same results. He just has a sensitive stomach. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne
i

[infoviewer]

Sharlene and Letti: Thanks so much for caring. It seems like we just keep trying to help these sweet pups, but to no avail. Thanks again. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi JoAnne,

I really think Tina's suggestion of getting off the Hill's ID is a good one to try. Try another brand and see if that helps. Try to get one that doesn't contain corn and if what he is eating now is chicken based, get one that is beef or something other than chicken. The ID feed has been the one consistent thing since getting so bad with the diarrhea. If possible, I would hire a nutritional consultant. That is where I would start....and today. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Thanks Leslie: He had the same problem with Eukunuba and Wilderness, just maybe not as bad. I tried chicken and rice, same problem. He is so thin and hungry. It seems most of the dog food have something in it that would upset his stomach. Surely there is a dog food with just a couple of ingredients, or something I can just feed him at home. I have a turkey breast cooking now. He has only had one medium soft stool this morning, of course it was at 2:00 a.m. He did eat a little of the ID a couple of times this morning. He has always been a dog that attacks his food like he is killing it. I have bought so many different kinds of dog food in the last two years and just had to give them to Goodwill. I still have the eukunuba and Wilderness, but am afraid to try anything else right now. I hate for the little dog to starve and that is what he looks like now. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

I actually took him to the biggest vet hospital in Nashville and all she could do was tell me he was atypical Cushing and I finally had to tell her i was only interested in her gastro opinion since she was a gastro doctor, only said Metronidazole and ID. A real disappointment. It seems they are only interested in the money. Sorry to vent. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

It is hard to find limited ingredient food. I go through that with Zoe If Coco is not digesting the rice, and I think he got worse when you fed him chicken and rice so I'm thinking if he is in a flare he cant tolerate the grain.

A question we have to ask when we are in the middle of a flare is: does our dog do better after resting their digestive system? For Zoe, if I skipped a meal when she was flaring, her stool got better. Following that information, I kept her strictly on 2 meals a day, no snacks in between. She was fed twelve hours a part as we slowly worked our way up to her normal amount of food and when we went back to snacks, it was only meat becuase it was the only thing she could pretty much tolerate.

But every dog is different. I read a paper by Monica Segal ( not sure how to spell her name) in which she explains why in her opinion, corn gets a bum rap sometimes. Zoe cant eat grain.

Coco has been through quite a bit the last month or so, the flare, the food change, the tape worms, the lizard, etc.

The other presciption foods all have grain in them, more than the ID and the ID is highly digestible food. When you first started the ID, you were mixing it in with the kibble and Coco had some good poos.

You may be in a place similar to me, where there is no commercial dog food that works best and we either have to accept the limits or home cook.

[Squirt's Mom]

Contact Monica Segal or Catherine Lane for a home cooked diet for Coco.

Monica Segal -
http://www.monicasegal.com/

Monica's discussion group -
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/

Catherine Lane -
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/

Catherine's discussion group -
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ThePossibleCanine-Nutrition/

You may have better luck with Monica....Cat is so very busy with her thesis and other projects it's sometimes hard to communicate with her these days. Either one should be able to help you with a recipe for Coco and Monica's group is quite active - Cat's isn't lately. Prices between the two are comparable for their services.

I keep wondering if he hasn't developed a food allergy or sensitivity to something. If he does well with the turkey, you might try feeding that only for a day or so then add a boiled egg for a day or so. If that goes well, add a few (1-2) green beans for a day or so. Keep slowly adding one food at a time as long as he is handling what he is eating ok so far. Sweet potatoes, lentils, quinoa, brown rice (cooked to a paste), eggs, beef liver, green beans, cod, salmon, organic yogurt (TINY bit) are all things you can add in slowly along with other foods. You can google and learn quite a bit about what is good and what isn't. This may help if you don't or can't work with Monica or Cat. I'm so sorry the gastric vet didn't help more. :( I swear it seems if a vet hears our babies have Cushing's, that is ALL they can see sometimes!

We've been battling diarrhea and loose stools in our house lately, too, but like Tipper, I think ours comes back to the chicken they are all eating so they all being transitioned off of it. Hopefully, they can all handle kibble for a bit while I figure out what to do next...go back to their earlier menus or pay for another one. :rolleyes: Meanwhile, I get peanut butter and crackers, and Ramen noodles! :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Isn't it the truth Leslie. I just say I work for my dog. I have a medical transcription business and I have just let it go to pot so to speak lately trying to help this little dog and I know you have several. It seems to be a 24 hour job just for my one. I am either looking for answers on the internet or taking care of him. I am on a new computer and hope I have not lost a lot of my information. Thanks so much for your information. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Just looked at the wrapping the turkey breast came in, has salt and broth flavoring and something in it. Going to try to find fresh one and see if that has anything in it. It is very good, but don't want to add anything else to CoCo. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

I know Addy, I just told Leslie just looked at the frest turkey bag and it has broth and salt piped into it, going to look for one without anything in it, probably only farmer's market here. Oh well, so far good this morning since 2:00, but I have not fed him much, so I know it is what he eats and could be anything that he eats. I know my gut is like that. I can barely eat anything. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

HA! I know what you mean about not being able to eat much! I never know what's going to set me off. The last two days I've been having a particularly difficult time - I'd swear Trink has given me her colitis! :eek: I woke up several times last nite to find her face to face with me, wide awake. I could just hear her asking me if I needed to go outside! :p The gang tried to crate me last nite but couldn't get my legs in and close the door so they took a chance and let me sleep in the bed again! :D

[infoviewer]

That is funny Leslie, but I know what you mean and it is not funny. I have been to every gastro doctor in Nashville and has not helped at all. I just try to stay close to a toilet when I have a really bad spell, which is most of the time if I ever eat anything. Another thing with me is I am pretty hyper so I chew gum as fast as I can all the time when I am home and working. That is probably not a good thing. I can take care of myself most of the time, our furbabies cannot and depend on us to take care of them. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Yup, that would not be good, cant have broth or salt. You can slice it and wrap it in waxed paper and put in a freezer bag, it freezes well for sandwiches:) We make Zoe's and take it out of the freezer as needed. Maybe a Kosher one would not have the added stuff. We buy organic, costs a fortune but it lasts. I spend more money on her than me. She eats organic turkey breast and I eat rice and veggies:D:D

I could be wrong, I am not so sure it is a food allergy. It seems like from Coco's history we have issues of dietary indescretion and his Cushings possibly exerpating it all with frequent infections because of the dietary indescretion. Perhaps if he did not have Cushings, the dietary indescretion would not be so hard on him, after awhile they just cant fight off the bacteria anymore. Then foods just start bothering him and it ends up a bad flare. I keep wondering if he has a helicobacter infection. But I am basing that on my memory of his thread and I could be off with that:rolleyes: So we need to figure out, which foods bother him the least to help overcome it and calm things done.

Just throwing stuff out there for you to think back over his history.

Yumm, I can smell the turkey, JoAnne.:):):):):)

[infoviewer]

Yes Addy, the turkey is very good. My husband went looking again and no organic turkey or fresh turkey anywhere close around where I live. He did get an organic chicken, 12.00 for a fresh chicken. I think that is pretty high. I usually just buy chicken breasts since I don't like the rest of the chicken. Of course chicken did not help the last time I tried him on it, but I don't remember if I just tried the chicken or also tried the rice for a day or two. I have tried so much in the past 3 months I think I have probably upset his whole system. He has done well today, but he is so thin I can hardly look at him without crying. Of course it is only 12, but we have been up since 2. I think the waking up so early is a habit now. He is a creature of habit and usually comes and lets me know it is time to eat or time for bed. Hope all of you are ok today. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

When did he eat ID and how much did he eat today and last night? What has he pooed so far today? When did you last give him metronodazole and how much?

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy, he has done well today. I probably fed him 1/2 to 3/4 can of food. No runny poos so far. Somewhat firm. He has only had one 125 mg Metronidazole, but I will give him another. Has had all of his Cushing medicine. Have to give him his last thyroid pill before bed. He takes so much that I have to look at my list to see what he has to have. Strange. I just never know what the day wll bring . He is usually so restless most of the day, but sleeps a couple of hours before bed, hence the 2:00 wake up I guess. I did not go back to sleep this morning so I am tired, but I will get over it. How are your furbabies and human babies today. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

CoCo had a great poo Sunday at 7:00 pm and a great one at 2:15 a.m. this Monday morning. I don't really care about getting up at 2 am, but happy about the poo. So happy this morn and so sleepy, Thanks, JoAnne

[Trish]

That's good news for the evening Joanne, so pleased you and Coco have had a good day/night!! Now get some sleep :)

[infoviewer]

Thanks Trish I think I will. Have a good day. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, good! I hope he can keep this up!

[addy]

Great news, so try not to change anything from what you did yesterday but realize you still may see a bad poo here and there.

I know it is really hard to see them so bony and Coco's thinning coat accents it. Zoe's back bone and hip bones were sticking out as well, she looked pretty bad in April. She is just starting to look better now, her hair is starting to fill in, her weight, though less, seems to have stabilized, her poos are better and less frequent. It has been a struggle for her too but she finally adjusted to her food change ratio.

I hope you got some sleep and you have a good day today. I'll check in on you later.

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much everyone. Good poos makes us happy. Does not take much to make us happy does it? I know Addy, just makes me cry to look at my beautiful little black dog and see his back bone and now his ribs, but the hair loss does accentuate all of it, but as long as he is improving I am happy and I know all of you know what I mean. I keep a list of everything so I am just trying to do the same and hoping and praying for the best. Hope all of you have a happy day. Love, JoAnne

[Tina]

Hi JoAnne,
So glad to read that CoCo had a better day yesterday, I sure hope it continues. There's not much better than good poops! ;) Hope you guys have a good day.

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[Budsters Mom]

Hi JoAnne,
Good news with the poo! Love good poop!:) Yes, we are all a little insane! :D That's okay, I fit right in. Maybe stopping all of Coco's meds, then restarting helped her system to settle somewhat? We never really know, do we? Anyway, it's about time you caught a break. Enjoy every minute of it with your precious Coco. Big hugs,

[doxiesrock912]

Good "poo" news JoAnne!
Hopefully the trend will continue:)

Now both of you get some rest.

[infoviewer]

Me too, Valerie. Thanks, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Yay! Good poos! Sounds like it is the frequency of the food. Keep it up Coco!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[Trixie]

Glad Coco had a good day and good poops! Such a huge relief when diarrhea goes away and you see improvement! Hope tomorrow Coco is even better. :)

Barbara

[infoviewer]

Thanks guys. Still ok in the poo department this morning. He is so thin and weak. I guess that goes along with the Cushings, but the bad poo makes it worse I am sure. Just thankful for another day with my little man. Hope everyone has a good day with their furbabies and family. Love, JoAnne

[goldengirl88]

It is nice when you don't have to worry about poo also. When they are already in a weakened state it can be hard on them. I am sorry your baby is so fragile now. Sometimes these things turn the corner when you least expect it. Maybe things will be looking up soon. Blessings
Patti

[molly muffin]

yay for good poops. If he can go for awhile with good poops, then maybe he will also after that be able to retain some more weight.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

Hi Joanne,

I hope today will be another good day.

I do have a question: when you say Coco is weak, what do you mean? Do you mean he is off balance, has trouble standing, walking, staggering, his legs give out?

I noticed on Lettie's thread you mentioned the vet had given you another drug for Coco's diarrhea. I looked it up and it has quite a few side effects. I was just wondering are you still using it and how often?

[Squirt's Mom]

I thought he wasn't taking any meds right now....I'm confused?

[infoviewer]

Hey all: CoCo has been weak in his back legs for awhile, but since the bad spell seems like by bedtime he just seems weak. He has probably lost a pound and a half to 2 pounds, which does not seem like much but for a 12 pound dog it seems like it is. Addy, the medication I got from the vet is Centrine supposed to give 1/2 pill, but I have only given 1/4 pill a couple of times. I did give him Lomotil a couple of weeks ago a couple of times. He seems better today. Did have a firm stool this morning, but it did have a couple of gray places on it, so the liver is not putting out enough bile. I have some milk thistle, 175 mg, I guess i will see how it is in the next day or two. I have only been giving him his medicine the last couple of days. Took him off everything and then started a little at the time and now he is still on 10 mg of Vetoryl in the morn and 10 mg at night instead of the 20 mg in the morn. I know most Cushing dogs gain weight, CoCo has lost weight the last year. I am thinking it is either the Vetoryl or his thyroid which was a little low last month, but the vet did not want to increase the thyroid medicine since he has had the soft poos for awhile. His cortisol was last month and was 6 I believe. He has had so much for a month or so that I think I forgot to get his last testing. I have tried to get the ultrasound report from the specialist for two weeks I think and there is always some excuse with the vet hospital. Needless to say I am not impressed with the hospital. We have actually just been trying to keep him alive for the past couple of weeks so I cannot remember all that has been done. Just taking it a day at the time which all of you know when you have a sick furbaby. He usually gets me up at 2 a.m. I woke up at 2:15 this morning and did not hear him, so i jumped up and turned the light on and touched him and he popped his head up. He has been so sick we have just been expectinig to lose him at any time. Everyone here knows that feeling. Thanks so much for caring. Hope you can read my rambling. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Oh little Coco. I just want him to get better. We all do, right along with you.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

I know Sharlene and now Simba is gone. You know lots of dachshunds have cushings. This is the third one I have had and the only one with cushings. I think more small dogs have it than large dogs. Oh well, it is a bad disease, I wish there was a good remedy and cure. I guess we are lucky there is some medicine that helps some. Hold Molly Muffin close. Love, JoAnne

[doxiesrock912]

I've read that Cushings is more common among smaller dogs.
I hope that Coco gets a good break soon!

Despise this disease!

[infoviewer]

Thanks Valerie, glad your furbaby is doing better. It seems to happen to a lot of dachshunds, who knows why. Guess they have bred then down until they are not part of the original dog. I know this is the smallest one I have had and all of mine were minis, but they are strong little dogs since they were bred to kill badgers and I can believe it. Hope you have a good day. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Hi JoAnne,

Hope you and Coco are ok. I hope I didnt come across too pushy about the meds, just worried about the two of you.:o

[Squirt's Mom]

How is Coco this morning? Still having better poops? I hope you are seeing some improvement!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

On no Addy, you were not pushy, I always appreciate what everyone says on this forum. Everyone is so knowlegable and I have learned so much. I always look on here to see if I can find out what is going on with CoCo. Lots more info and knowledge than from the vet. since we live with the Cushing dog. Hope your puppies are ok today. Coco is still doing ok in the poo department. Did have one soft poo yesterday, but the next was firm. I figured I feed him too much or too frequent. I keep weighing myself and then weighing him in my arms. No weight gain or loss I do not believe. Just looks so long and bony, maybe he will gain some soon, but he is still getting around ok. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Leslie. His poops are doing ok this morning so far. I really have to watch how much and how frequent I feed him and of course I want him to gain weight so I am probably a little heavy handed on the Hill's ID which he loves, but I think he would eat anything, loves the dead grass kicked out from under the lawn tractor so i have to take him out on a leash and we do have squirrels and rabbits, so you know what that means, yikes. I never let him get to that now, but he used to run free in the back, so who knows what a dog will eat . Hope Squirt is walking ok this morning. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Hope that the poops continue good today. Boy, it really does sound like the amount, frequency of feeding has a great deal to do with Coco's poops. It's good to know that is what is going on at least and hopefully the good poops continue so you'll that for sure.

I know JoAnne It is so hard when we lose even one of our forum furbabies. Having a bad month is especially hard on all of us. I am definitely keeping molly close and giving her tons of hugs and belly rubs.

hugs
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey all: CoCo is ok so far this morn. Of course it is only 5:30 and he got up at 2:00. It is a habit now and he is like an alarm clock. Has to be sure my husband and me are both up and has a real loud bark for such a tiny dog. He does have a semi-soft stool still occasionally, but I am sure it is because I feed him too frequently or too much trying to put a pound or two back on him. I started his glucosamine vitamins again, was afraid it might cause diarrhea since it has onega 3 and 6 in it. Seems like his tiny legs are a little stronger. I cannot really tell he is such a stoic little dog. Hope all are okay this morning. It is a sad month, really sad any time a precious dog is lost. Love, JoAnne

[goldengirl88]

I know the glucosamine gives my Tipper a stomach ache. So could that be the problem with the poops? Blessings
Patti

[infoviewer]

Hey Patti: That is an idea, I had not given CoCo any glucosamine for a couple of months and gave him one the last couple of days and he did have a soft stool both days. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Has anyone had a cushing dog on Vetoryl with weight loss. CoCo looks so bony and looks like he is wasting away. No loose stools today. I am confused again. I am such a worry wart. Always thinking there is something else wrong that I need to be working on. Thanks, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

In light of Pia's new diagnosis of low B12 and some reading on that, has Coco had his checked? He does have an appetite but continued weight loss is also a sign of low B12. It might be worthwhile to have his vitamin and mineral levels checked. ;)

[infoviewer]

Hey Leslie I thought of that and one of the vets said something about B12 injections if he had the EPI, but he has had so much stuff done lately, I tried to stop the soft stools first before we started something else. He is better with the stools and I looked on his reports and he has weighed in the 10 pound + for several months. I did read that the Vetoryl can cause weight loss. His main vet suggested I feed him more about 4 months ago because he had been losing weight after he got stabilized on the Vetoryl. Did have the droopy belly, now has lost muscle which I guess is what Cushiings does. He has actually done well since diagnosed in 2011, and I want to help him stay as healthy as I can. Love, JoAnne

[Budsters Mom]

Yes, we all want him to stay as healthy as possible for as long as possible. You are doing a wonderful job advocating for Coco. :) he is blessed to have you on his side. Big hugs,

[Trixie]

Has Coco been on Vetoryl since his diagnosis in 2011? Sounds like you've done a great job. Sorry about his weight loss..but he has a good appetite for his I/D? Maybe you can try smaller but more frequent meals?
I'm a worry wart too! :rolleyes: It's so hard not to be with this disease! So many things to watch and think about. Hate always feeling worried. Hope Coco feels good today, and that his poops stay firm!

Barbara

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much guys. CoCo is wagging his tail and happy today so that is a plus. I really watch how much and how frequent I feed him, but sometimes he is so hungry and I probably give him too much or too often, but he is so much better than a few days ago. I just keep looking for something to get him to gain a pound or so, but he gets around ok for now so I am thankful for that. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Guys today while I was putting groceries up, I missed CoCo and thought he had gone outside with my husband. I went to the door to see if he was out back and had to pass the laundry room on my way and there was CoCo with his head in a bag eating a cantaoupe, rind and all. He ate a pretty big plug out of the cantaloupe. It is 7:25 and he did it about 3:00. I am waiting for the fall-out so to speak. I used to feed him tomatoes and lots of different things, but not since the stomach upsets. I gave him a gas-x. He is bad about eating grass and the grass was cut today and he is still too fast for me to stop him from grabbing things. Wish me luck tonight. He got up this morning at 1:30 to go out and poo, but he did go back to sleep. Who knows what tonight will bring. Sometimes I wonder why I give him this medicine and try to control his stools (Oh yeah, I love the little man.). It was funny to see a 10 pound dog in a sack eating a cantaloupe. I am just hoping I don't have to take him to the ER with a pancreatic attack. Oh well, that was my adventure for today. Hope I don't have one tonight. Love, JoAnne

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh my, the little rascal!!! I did a quick google search and it seems that cantaloupe is ok for a dog to eat, so I will be hoping that no adverse effects will be seen...let us know how Coco makes out.

[addy]

He and Zoe must have signed a pack to find whatever they can think of to eat. The other night Zoe had a mucus stool the likes I havent seen in a while. I just looked at her and said "what did you eat this time?" Luckily for her, a little bit bigger piece of metronidazole sets her right in a day or two.

At least you will know why his stools are bad this time.:(:)

Always something

[infoviewer]

Well CoCo slept until 2:00 a.m this morning and went out and had a firm stool. That was amazing. Who knows why. I just figured especially the rind would really upset him, but not so far. I knew cantaloupe was ok for dogs to eat, but maybe not the rind, especially with his problems. I gave him a gas-x and a Centrine and gave him more Metronidazole and gave him a Melatonin before he went to bed. I was afraid I had given him too much, but he did fine. If he manages to wait 3 or 4 hours after he eats before having a stool it will be firm. Takes at least 4 hours to digest. For some reason he eliminates too often sometimes. I am going to take him back to that speciality hospital and get some more tests done one him, but nothing invasive. Just thankful he is okay. Love, JoAnne

[goldengirl88]

I read the cantaloupe story and laughed like crazy. That must have been some sight to see. Hope Coco continues to do well. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm with Patti! That was funny! :D I can just hear him telling you - "Mom, you eat that prescription stuff for a while and you'd stick you head in a bag for cantaloupe rind, too!" :p:p:p

[molly muffin]

Good point Leslie! CoCo wants flavor mum! LOL Hopefully there won't be any lasting effects from his cantaloupe adventure.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Guys: So good so far, he did have a little mushy stool about four hours after the first. He is kind of draggy today. sleeping a lot, which is good, usually he is restless and sitting behind me wanting me to do something. Hope all are doing well this hot day. Love, JoAnne

[Budsters Mom]

Sending you and precious Coco many hugs and healing energy. I loved your cantaloupe story. Maybe you should put all of his food in a sack and see how it goes?:D Too funny. I hope your Sunday is peaceful. Xxxxxx

[addy]

If he is like Zoe, I dont see it until the second day. Fruits are not so bad, he may just be okay with it.

Crossing fingers and toes

[infoviewer]

Hey Guys: This is Monday morning and he is still doing pretty good on the poo patrol. I am surprised. Just figured I would lose all control of his
poo, but he has done ok. I am still giving him a little Metronidazole. Just hoping it continues. Now got to find something to help him gain a little weight and I may take him back to the speciality hospital for some testing. Hope all furbabies and families are fine this morn. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

big sigh of relief


:):):):):):):)

[molly muffin]

Great news JoAnne. Seems like he is not going to have a reaction to the cantaloupe after all. That is good as you can add it to one food that doesn't give him the runs too.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[doxiesrock912]

"Cantelope because the ladder isn't long enough." That is my fiance's geeky humor:)

Had to throw that in, just HAD to.

Hope everyone is doing well tonight.

[Budsters Mom]

Okay, that's just a bad joke so let's move on!:D

Glad to hear a good poop report. Always happy to hear those! Xxxx

[infoviewer]

HaHa guys. Love it. Love, JoAnne

[goldengirl88]

JoAnn:
I guess that will become a staple in Coco's diet. It has a lot of fiber in it, and is probably good for the vitamins. That has to be a first. A cantaloupe eating dashound. Everytime I think of it,it puts a smile on my face.Blessings
Patti

[infoviewer]

Hey Patti: I thought of that, maybe he needs more fiber. He is doing ok this morning. Did have one soft stool yesterday, not bad. Really amazing that I did not lose complete control of hiis stools. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Yay! This is great news. Almost feels like a record in Coco's life lately to have this many good poops.
Okay, is he doing the kick off afterwards? I always think that is like a real triumphant feeling for them, the way they carry on after a good one. I notice molly isn't as big of a kicker when she is having a bout of the runs.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Budsters Mom]

Still on poop patrol I see! :D I never get tired if talking about poop. LOL I am glad to hear that Coco is continuing to do well.:) xxx

[infoviewer]

Seems like all me and hubby do is poop patrol. "How was it?" is always the question the one in the house asks. Are we obsessed or what. If CoCo could gain a little weight we would not worry so. He has actually been losing weight for awhile. He has stabilized I think, just is not gaining any, which is concerning. I gave him a tiny lick of Nutrical this morning. Hoping it does not upset him. We will just deal with it if it does. Hope all furbabies are happy this morn. Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

Hi Joanne
Glad things have settled down for Coco, hopefully he will gain a little weight once his tummy stays good! Fingers crossed you can get some of that nutrical in him with no ill effects! xx

[goldengirl88]

Hope Coco continues to do well. Maybe that old bite of cantaloupe did the trick, and everything is going up hill now. Blessings
Patti

[Squirt's Mom]

I'm glad Coco is doing a bit better and holding his own with the poop. A thought occurred to me last week about Squirt's diarrhea I can't seem to get stopped for good - since her seizure, she's been off all those meds she was on for so long including the lignans - which are fiber. The fiber in the lignans she was taking was considered in her recipe so when I stopped the lignans, her fiber content went down. :rolleyes: We restarted the lignans last week, slowly building back up to the usual dose as of today so we will see if that helps her or not. If not, I may just get a cantaloupe, stick it in a bag and let her have at it! :p

[infoviewer]

Funny Leslie, I am laughing until tears are running down my face. It is such a mystery when they have soft stools or diarrhea. CoCo's are mostly soft stools when he has one. I have discovered that he will have a soft stool when it has not been long enough for digestion to take place. Don't know if it is EPI or SIBO. I am taking him to a different specialist Monday at the same speciality hospital. After I discovered he had worms the end of June, I suspected that was the cause of weight loss and loose bowels, but he is still so thin and soft stool some. I am hoping for the best Monday and dread it. We have spent a fortune on this sweet dog and don't begrudge any of it. Just hoping they find out what is wrong. Sorry your baby is still having problems. I hate for these furbabies to have something wrong and hate for them to have to have all this stuff done at the vets. Take care. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Any one ever have the tips of their dachshunds ears bleed when they shake their head and hit their ears. I think the ends get necrotic. I have put antibiotic on it. I just noticed a drop of blood on the floor and he was flopping his ears so I figured that was it. I just put vaseline on them and patted flour on them. Maybe that will stop the bleeding. I had been using organic coconut oil on them, evidently did not help, just softened the tips enough to bleed. Shall we say "what else is going to happen". I think he is okay now. Just hope he does not flopping the long ears in the bed. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Guys: I am really concerned now.Took CoCo to another specialist because of his weight loss and soft stools. I found a tapeworm again, i am just horriried since he just had a deworming. I thought sure that was the reason for the weight loss and soft stools, but the vet said no. She also does not believe he is controlled because of his hair loss and other things and thinks he should have a wash out and be started on Lydodren after he is taken off his thyroid medication, does not think he is hypothyroid. I guess these vets think people are made of money this is $1000 in the last 3 weeks besides the medication I have had to buy. I do not regret any of it if it helps CoCo. She is going to try tapering the thyroid down and i have to deworm him again and if he gets no better, then start the washout and change to Lysodren. Oh well, start over again. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Oh JoAnne. I am so sorry that things just don't seem to be improving with CoCo. :(

So now they think the thyroid isn't a problem at all?
It could be that he isn't controlled, but if he doesn't have a thyroid issue, he shouldn't be on thyroid medicine either.

So, are you going to wash out? take him off meds for 30 days?

I can't believe it already has another tapeworm. So maybe there were eggs or something and it didn't get rid of those?

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: I cannot believe that he had another tapeworm either. I was glad when I saw it because I figured that was why he had soft stools and had lost weight , but both vets said tapeworms do not cause a dog to lose weight unless they have a lot. How could he, just treated last month. Treating again. I cannot imagine that he has eaten a flea, he never has fleas, but he will eat grass and is always looking for something in the grass. We have squirrels everywhere so maybe there are fleas in the grass. She did a GI panel in her office and an adrenal panel. I meant for her to do the GI panel and send it to Texas. Wanted to do a GI biopsy, but I do not want him put to sleep. Guess I will see how it goes with the thyroid weaning and deworming and she will do a full thyroid panel in 3 weeks and then I will decide if I do a wash out for a month and try Lysodren. Poor little fellow, we were at the hospital 4 hours, he was starving and shaking when they finally brought him out. Of course he was fine when he snuggled with me. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, first and foremost, the vet "thinking" he may not be controlled isn't gonna get it. ;) He needs an ACTH to see where his cortisol is now if that has not been done. That will tell if he is controlled or not. Same with the thyroid - only testing will show if he is or isn't and if he is under control. But you know that....

From the Dechra brochure -


The most common adverse reactions
reported are poor/reduced appetite,
vomiting, lethargy/dullness, diarrhea,
and weakness. Occasionally, more
serious reactions, including severe
depression, hemorrhagic diarrhea,
collapse, hypoadrenocortical crisis or
adrenal necrosis/rupture may occur,
and may result in death.

From the Lyso brochure (for humans) -


.
Gastrointestinal disturbances, which consist of anorexia, nausea or vomiting, and in some cases diarrhea, occur in about 80% of the patients.

So both can cause digestive upsets. We have seen pups that did not do well on Lyso handle Trilo just fine and vice versa - it just depends on the pup and which works best for them. I'm not very good with Trilo so I will let those that use it look back through Coco's history and see how it was used, how he was tested (monitoring ACTHs), check doses, and so on. They will have better input about switching at this point than I. For what it's worth, based on what the vet told you today, I wouldn't be in a big rush to believe them. ;) You simply cannot "guess" at these things. I think I would be looking into any possible cause for the diarrhea other than the Trilo first - like the SIBO and EPI and anything else they thought could be behind this. THEN if nothing panned out, I would look at switching. If I could believe beyond a doubt that the Lyso wouldn't have the same effect, I would tell you to start the washout today. He might make the switch and that cure the issue BUT he might make the switch and nothing change...or things get worse. So keep looking for a cause separate and apart from the Cushing's or Trilo first is what I would do.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Hey Leslie: That is what I was thinking and I told her we woiuld try the worm medicine first and taper the thyroid medicine and see how that goes. My regular vet had tested t he thyroid and was thinking it might need tapering down thinking that might be the reason for his weight loss. He had done an ACTH in 6/13 and it was pre 3.9 and post 6.7 which was ok. This new vet said then we would do a complete thyroid test and see if he really had hypothyroidiism after we tapered the Soloxine. She said some of his hormones might still be off so did an adrenal study and a GI panel. She actually typed out a two page instruction on everything while I was there. I asked her to do the GI panel, but when I read her instructions I did not see that she had ordered an EPI or SIBO. She is actually supposed to be a Cushiing specialist if there really is one. CoCo really looks bad so that is what they judge the Vetoryl on I suppose. Muscle wasting, hair loss and really bony. She seemed like she was knowledgable, but I am the one that will make the decision on what to do. She said CoCo might need only 1/2 tablet for maintenance on Lysodren after he was stabilized. My regular vet is really the one that wanted me to go to this vet since she is supposed to be an expert. I really hate aggravating my little dog, we were at the hospital 4 hours yesterday. Thanks so much for your info and what you do for these babies. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Hi JoAnne,

Sorry I have not been around, my mom has been in the hospital for a week now.

I totally agree with Leslie. Do you have Coco's stim history? Could you list it here?


Dont be in a rush for anything. They told me the same thing and Zoe is growing hair and caramel colored spots and we are down from yucky green stools six times a day to brown stools 4 times a day and that is from too much food for her.

Every dog is different but you know your dog best and I would venture to say, better than our vets.

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: I was concerned that I had not seen you on the forum, was hoping that everything was ok with your furbabies and family. Sorry your mom has been ill. You are right we all know our dogs better than a vet that sees them for the first time, so I took what she said and digested it and I did decide that possibly he did not have hypothyroidism and I am going to try weaning off the Soloxine. I had already talked about that with his regular vet. It did not take but a minute for the new vet to look at my face to realize that I would listen to her, but make my own decision. CoCo's last ACTH in 6/13 was pre 3.9, post 6.7. The new vet said that even if the ACTH was normal that sometimes Vetoryl did not lower some of the hormones like Lysodren does since it destroyed the adrenals. I don't understand why some of these vets do not like Vetoryl. It is not the money because Lysodren costs less to maintain the dogs than Vetoryl. CoCo does look bad, muscle loss, weight loss and hair loss, so possibly they think Lysodren would help all of these problems. CoCo has had Cushings since 2011. I am just really concerned about taking him off the Vetoryl and starting Lysodren. I am just going to think about it some more, I will go back to her in 3 weeks to have the full thyroid test. She is a Cushing expert and I have read lots of stuff about her and she seems smart, but I love my dog she does not he is just another dog to her. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

The new vet said that even if the ACTH was normal that sometimes Vetoryl did not lower some of the hormones like Lysodren does since it destroyed the adrenals.

With the last ACTH post number of 6.7, you also have to look at how well his signs are controlled. The post can go up to 9.1 but only if all signs are controlled. So I'm not sure 6.7 would be considered controlled or not for Coco.

Studies have shown that Vetoryl / Trilostane can elevate the intermediate hormones even as it is lowering the cortisol while Lysodren will lower all the hormones produced in the adrenal glands. For this reason, UTK does not recommend Trilo for pups that have elevated intermediates but rather recommends lignans, melatonin, and Lysodren. Some feel elevated intermediate are not an issue, some feel they are. I chose a long time ago to follow Dr. Oliver's take on this and chose Lyso when the time came since Squirt does have elevated intermediates.

Lysodren does NOT destroy the adrenal glands so I hope you misunderstood the vet and that is not what she believes. It can have this effect but so can Vetoryl / Trilostane. If either drug is misused, they can both destroy the glands causing the dog to become permanently Addisonian.

Lysodren works by eroding a miniscule layer of the outer cortex of the adrenal glands during the load. This miniscule erosion prevents the adrenals from "hearing" the signal to release more cortisol. Maintenance dosing that follows the load simply maintains that level of erosion. That miniscule layer CAN and WILL regenerate without the maintenance dosing. ;) Just wanted to make sure you understand so perhaps your fear of Lyso will lessen a bit if he does need to switch at some point in the future.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Hey Leslie: I think what she said was if too much of the adrenal gland was destroyed, he would have Addison's disease and Prednisone was the antedote which I already have from my regular vet. I actually had started him on Melatonin and lignans when he was first diagnosed. He really does not have a lot of water drinking now, in fact does not drink enough water since that Hill's food has so much water, I actually add water to it. I slice the canned food and dry it out in the oven since I don't like to touch the slimy stuff and CoCo seems to get it in the roof of his mouth if I don't bake it a little and then add water to it in his bowl. I guess they think he looks so bad with his muscle wasting and hair loss that Lysodren might help him. Maybe he would have done better on Lysodren if I had started it in the beginning. He seems ok to me, does have the few calcinosis cutis on his tail and is very thin and has the soft stools. I am wondering how the GI panel and hormone panel could be accurate since he is on Vetoryl. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

live in the small intestines and vary from less than an inch to several feet in length. The head of the worm fastens to the wall of the gut by hooks and suckers. The body is composed of segments that contain the egg packets. To cure tapeworm infection, the head must be destroyed. If it is not, the worm will regenerate.
The body segments containing the eggs are passed in the feces. Fresh, moist segments are about one-quarter inch (6 mm) long and are capable of moving. Occasionally you may see them crawling through the fur near your dog’s anus. When dry, they resemble kernels of rice. Some dogs experience anal itching from the segments. Tapeworms will drain nutrition from your dog but not to the extent that ascarids, hookworms, and whipworms will.

so maybe that is not rice in his stool as we thought?

The reason I wanted to see all of Coco's stims is to see if he has been consistently over post 5ug/dl because that could be why his symptoms are not controlled.

There is no reason to be afraid of Lysodren and if Coco cannot reach optimal control certainly a switch can be considered.

I know you have spent a lot of money so far but I guess I would want to know a few things and try a few things before throwing in the towel and starting all over but you know Coco best.

I would want a gastro panel done by Texas A&M
I would want a stool recheck on the tapeworms to make sure it is clear after his second treatment
I would want to bring his cortisol down under 5 ug/dl for awhile to see if there is any improvement in Coco's remaining symptoms
I would want to resolve the hypothyroid issues
I would want to know for sure he has no disk or arthritis issues
AND I would want someone to check his skin for any surface bacterial infection or yeast infection.

I am not saying Coco is like Zoe, every dog is different but if Zoe's skin issues would have been dealt with correctly by the derm vet and her IMS last year, she would not have suffered the amount of hair loss she did so I think it something these vets dont even think of. Dechra has a case study about it. The derm vet Zoe saw one time had excellent credentials and let us just say, I thought he was quite lacking; he focused on one thing only because he was influenced by my IMS who is also not up to speed with Trilostane use.

It is a long list and I know it would be tons of money but at least it would be something to discuss with these vets even if you cant do the testing. If you feel that you know the answers to all these questions then perhaps, a switch may be in order down the road. But if I remember correctly, and I may not be, I dont think Coco has ever been under 5 ug/dl and Coco had stool issues prior to starting Trilostane.

hugs

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: The vet is sending the GI panel to Texas A & M. CoCo's ACTH has never been under 5, it was 5.8 in 1/13 and was higher than that in 12/12, then for some reason we did not test him until 6/13 or I did not get the test, but I think the vet said we could wait 6 months after it was 5.8 in 1/13, then was 6.7 in 6/13. He seems to feel worse today since I am weaning him off his thyroid medicine. I don't think these vets know anything and the last one I saw is supposed to be a cushing IM. The problem with tapeworms is if they eat a flea they can get another, CoCo has never had fleas, but squirrels and rabbits are in the yard and I have to watch CoCo or he digs in the grass and eats something, probably squirrel poop or like you said the eggs hatch. I dewormed him again yesterday and have 3 Panacur syringes to deworm him again. This little dog only goes outside now to poop or pee and always with us so strange that he gets worms. The vets seem t o poopoo things because I am so horrified, I guess they see a lot . Glad Zoe is doing better. Hope your Mom is. Thanks a lot Addy. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

CoCo's GI panel was normal. He has had 3 good stool days. This morning it was a little soft. Don't really understand why. Nothing changed. I have not got the hormone levels back yet. He has gained almost a pound, don't know if it is weaning the thyroid or no worms. I am always waiting for something else to happen with him. His dachshund ears look so bad, dry and vasculitis I guess. I got some medicine for the vasculitis, but did not give it to him yet , trying to make sure his bowels were okay before I start something else. Still on the fence about stopping his Vetoryl for 30 days and starting him on Lysodren. I have really studied what the new vet put in her report and she seems competent, but CoCo seems to have had Cushing since early 2011 and has been on Vetoryl since 1/12, really scary to change. His worst symptom is his hair loss and gastro problems and I think Lysodren can cause diarrhea. We have been fighting the weight loss and loose stools for so long and they have been better for a couple of weeks, no Metronidazole for a couple of weeks. Such a worry to try to change things, but the cushing vet seems to think Lysodren would be better. Hope all families and furbabies are well this morning. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

I think you have to do your homework on both drugs and decide based on what symptoms are not controlled.

1- We know that appx 80% respond to Trilostane
2- We know not all dogs will have 100% of symptoms controlled with Trilostane
3- We know the UTK panel will most likely show elevated intermediate hormones since Trilostane will elevate some of them but what that means for Coco- we dont know.
4- We know if Coco has bowel issues we can start and stop Trilostane
5- We do not know the cause of Coco's bowel issues
6- We know the number one side effect of Lysodren is gastric upset
7- We know if Coco does indeed end up with that side effect, we cannot stop the drug or we lose the load


This is the way I see it, and I could be wrong. When someone brings there dog in to a specialist and the dog's Cushing symptoms are not controlled 100% to the satisfaction of the "owner" and the dog still looks like a Cush pup, they are going to say switch drugs, especially, if the drug they prefer is one verses the other.

Does the vet address why Lysodren may help his bowels and if he has problems what is her plan?

Yes, Coco has been on Trilostane for over a year but his stim history indicates he was still showing symptoms, so he may have needed lower cortisol levels. Or maybe Trilostane cannot resolve all of his symptoms.

You have to be comfortable with the vet and with the treatment. What do Coco's labs look like? Do you have any abnormals from his latest blood work? Has he had an ultra sound done? If so was there anything to worry about on it?

I guess what I am asking, are there any other on going health issues besides his thyroid that you know of?

JoAnne, Zoe has so much wrong with her, her GP told me- pick your battles carefully, I cant win them all most likely, there are too many things wrong with her, I can't make her perfect. Zoe was giving us signs that maybe she needed tighter control before we throw in the towel on Trilostane. But that is Zoe.

Follow your heart and your gut. They usually are not wrong.

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Addy I am printing what you said and thinking about it. CoCo does not have a problem with drinking water, he is greedy about his eating, but I can control that. His hair really looks bad, but that is cosmetic, he has about 5 or 6 calcinosis cutis on his tail. Now he has lost the hair on his ears and I have to put oil on them and watch and make sure they do not bleed, but I can handle it if they do. His ultrasound did show some enlarged organs probably due to Cushings, heart murmur or age-related and I don't believe Lysodren would change any of that. I did not really discuss much about Lysodren with the vet because I was not planning on changing him, but have to go back for the full thyroid test in a couple of weeks and I will discuss it with her. CoCo really looks bad because of his hair loss, but I am more concerned about the weight loss and loose stools than the hair loss. Hair loss will not kill him, but weight loss and diarrhea might. We could probably add more Vetoryl since he only takes 10 mg in the morning and 10 mg at night. My regular vet was so concerned about the weight loss is the reason he referred him to the specialist. I am hoping we have that handled. Sorry this is so long, I am just thinking and typing. I so appreciate what you said. Love, JoAnne

[Simba's Mom]

sending hugs and prayers to you and Coco.....

[molly muffin]

Checking in on you and CoCo. Is he still continuing to lose weight do you think? How is the diarrhea, has he had any more? Hopefully that is getting better now.

Thinking of you both
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: CoCo has gained a pound. No more diarrhea. Good stools for about 4 days I think. His thyroid medicine is gone, don't know if that is why or because he was dewormed. Guess we will figure it out when he has a complete thyroid test in a couple of weeks. The cushing specialist wants to start him on Lysodren, but I am really concerned that would be the wrong thing to do now since the worst symptom with Lysodren is diarrhea and CoCo has such a sensitive stomach. If it did not work, he would be off the Trilostane 30 days so would have to start over. Addy gave me some good points to think about. So hard to figure out what to do with these Cushing dogs. Thanks for caring. So glad Molly is doing so well. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

I hope everything is okay where you are. I saw there was some bad weather and flooding down your way. hugs
sharlene and molly muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey Sharlene: Yes we had some really bad weather. Fortunately I live on a hill and not close to a creek so we are okay. Lots of people did lose they home and lots of businesses were full of water. Really sad for people to lose their homes and if you don't have flood insurace it is just terrible. They have lost everything. I have not posted in awhile. I have just been trying to make up my mind about something. The new specialist I am taking CoCo to thinks he would do better on Lysodren. She took him off thyroid medicine. He is so much better and has gained weight, more energy and his stools are normal. He still has the muscle wasting, hair loss, few calcinosis cutis on his tail. No over drinking water or peeing. He was dewormed so I think that is one thing that helped and maybe the thyroid . She is going to do a full thyroid panel next week. This is his hormone panel done last week.
Post ACTH--------------RESULT---NORMAL
CORTISOL--------------90.5--------70.8-108.5
ANDROSTENEDIONE-----4.81--------0.68---7.92
ESTRADIOL-------------72.3*--------30.0---65.6
PROGESTERONE---------3.15*--------0.55---1.70
17 OH PROGESTERONE--8.91*-------0.37----2.87
ALDOSTERONE----------260.4-------72.0---398.5
*ABNORMAL ESTRADIOL, PROGESTERONE & 17 OH PROGESTERONE (I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT) This is the reason the new vet thinks he should be changed to Lysodren. Anyone have any ideas. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi JoAnne,

With the cortisol normal I would start with the lignans and melatonin and see if that protocol brought those elevated intermediate hormones back in line. The Lyso will work on all the intermediates that are produced in the adrenals but cannot touch Estradiol if it is being made outside the adrenals. (Lyso works directly on the glands.) Estradiol is the only intermediate that can be made outside the adrenal glands. The combination of the lignans and melatonin will reach the Estradiol no matter where it is produced. So that is where I would start and I would start asap. It can take up to 4 months for the lignans and melatonin to work their magic. ;)

Get the plain melatonin, not time release or extended wear or any other neat crap - just plain melatonin, 3mg tablets. We use the flax lignans because when I switched Squirt to the spruce lignans, we lost all control of the intermediates so she is back on the flax lignans. I use VitaCost brand but there are other good ones out there.

I'm so glad to hear that the diarrhea has stopped and Coco is feeling better! YAY!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Thanks Leslie: I had already started the Melatonin about 3 weeks ago since he was not sleeping good. I have noit started the lignans yet. I had used the SDG lignans about a year and a half ago, but they seemed to cause loose stools (I could have used too much), so switched to the HMR. For some reason I stopped the Melatonin and lignans after I started the Vetoryl.

This new vet wants to start the Lysodren out low and then raise it until his cortisol level is between 2-5 and then start him on a maintenance level. I am really concerned about the loading. CoCo is so greedy with food, I am afraid we would not know when he was loaded. That is why I did not start Lysodren with his regular vet a year and a half ago, but after six months on the Melatonin and lignans, his cortisol was still high so started him on Vetoryl. His cortisol seems ok now, but other hormones are increased. I don't know why they cannot just start him on a low maintenance dose of Lysodren and the Melatonin and SDGs. I have the SDG flax hull lignan-1/2 Tbs=5 grams, the HMR capsule was 40 mg. CoCo weighs 11 pounds. Thanks so much Leslie. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

CORTISOL--------------90.5--------70.8-108.5

JoAnne, this cortisol level is normal so he does NOT need to be loaded period. I have no idea what the IMS is talking about in wanting the level between 2-5. His cortisol is already normal. I may be missing something here and if I am I hope someone will correct me but based on these labs, there is no way in you know where I would load him. I would add the lignans once a day asap, keep the melatonin going twice a day for a few months, then retest and see where the hormones were. If Lyso needed to be added at that point, it would be maintenance ONLY...unless the cortisol was elevated on the second test.

Trilostane (Vetoryl) has been shown to cause elevations in the intermediate hormones. This is why UTK does not recommend Trilo for pups who already have elevations in any of the intermediates but suggest Lysodren instead as it will address them all, with the possible exception of the Estradiol, as well as the cortisol. HOWEVER, they do not recommend loading a pup who has elevations in the intermediates only, which is the case with Coco. Another thought is this - Coco hasn't been off of the Trilo all that long so it is possible that the elevations showing up now will normalize as the effects of the drug leave his system and his adrenals recover. He may not need anything at all in a few months. I don't know how long it takes for the intermediates to settle once Trilo is stopped, tho.

In light of this current cortisol reading, I am now questioning the CC. It would be extremely rare in my understanding for a pup with normal cortisol levels to develop CC so since Coco's is normal, I wonder if the bumps are really CC. Could there be a connection to the apparent overdose of thyroid meds? Just wool-gathering here... :)

I would question the IMS in depth as to why she wants to load Coco when his cortisol is normal...then come tell us what she says. We may all learn something.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

I'm confused as I thought this test was done while Coco was still taking Trilostane. We are seeing controlled cortisol because of his dose of Trilostane. If we stop the Trilostane, his cortisol will not continue to be controlled so if you add only a maintenance dose of Lysodren, how will that continue to control the cortisol?

[infoviewer]

Hey Leslie: I have not stopped the Vetoryl, since this just happened 6 days ago and I have been just trying to figure out what to do. I think I only restarted the Melatonin 4 days ago. so the hormone level was done when he was still on Vetoryl 10 mg b.i.d. I weaned him off his thyroid after the hormone level was done also. His last cortisol level was 6.7 at his regular vet's office. Every doctor that has looked at the bumps on his tail has said they were calcinosis cutis, they are just bumps, not sores and have not changed since they first appeared. I have not talked to the new vet that much. She just called after the hormone report came back and said his hormones were out of whack. Really confusing. Thanks so much. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Addy, he is still on the Vetoryl so that is why the cortisol was normal, and probably why the other hormones are increased. He is so much better. Maybe it is taking the thyroid away and the deworming. I really think it was the tapeworm, but the vets say no he would have to have a lot of worms to cause weight loss. Maybe they are just protecting themselves for not recognizing that he had worms, of couirse I did not either. Thank goodness he is not a licker and we call him little man because he is so bossy and not a snuckler and will not sit in your lap. Hope Zoe and KoKo and all are fine. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

:o:o never mind :o:o I thought the Trilo had been stopped when the thyroid med was. Teach me to think!

[addy]

Okay, that is what I thought. Your IMS is basically suggesting a protocol similar to the one our old IMS suggested for Zoe, though my IMS was for some reason under the delusion that since Zoe's cortisol was now controlled with Vetoryl, a low dose of Lysodren would control her intermediates and somehow magically, her cortisol would not elevate so we would not have to control it by loading:rolleyes::rolleyes:

So just checking on that.

I am so happy to hear Coco is improving without his thyroid medication. That is a big plus, JoAnne.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[infoviewer]

So he needs to be loaded with the Lysodren and cannot be just started on maintenance? I know I have to stop the Vetoryl for 30 days. I guess he will get the symptoms, although he never had much. He does not drink much water at all now, probably because the ID food has a lot of water in it. This is not an easy disease is it? Love, JoAnne

[addy]

If you do a 30 day wash out, it could be possible that a maintenance dose will control his cortisol, every dog is different. We have not had that many dogs switch on our forum. Usually maintenance doses of Lysodren on Cush pups starting out with treatment are not very successful. That is not to say they never work, we just have not seen that many cases of them here. Dr. Peterson told me he doubted it would work for Zoe when we first were deciding on treatment. Our IMS was not going to do a 30 day wash out and Zoe's cortisol has not exactly been easy to control. Zoe is not Coco:):):)

Did you ask her if she has ever done what she is proposing successfully and if so, how many times?

If you trust what she tells you and it feels right, then consider it. You know your dog, every hair on his head. For me, I did not trust what ours was telling me, I knew it did not sound right but she was telling me a bit different protocol and when I asked her originally if she had every loaded a dog with Lysodren that suffered from inflamatory bowel disease, she admitted no.

Ours is a different situation, JoAnne.:):):)

[infoviewer]

You know CoCo is an intact male and these increased hormones are female hormones I think. I just dpn't understand anything. I guess it is still ok to give him the Melatonin. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: She said she had treated many Cushing dogs and switched them to Lysodren. Who knows, she looks really young to me, but is supposed to be a Cushing specialist. It is a specialist hospital and all the vets are specialist. I am just not real familiar with her like I am my regular vet, but she seems really smart. I am just afraid of the loading since CoCo is so greedy and knows the exact time he is to be fed, even when the time changes. Hugs, JoAnne

[addy]

Had a minute at lunch time to check in on you :)

How are you and Coco?

Thinking of you,

[lulusmom]

Hi JoAnne,

Dechra says that a post stimulated cortisol of 9.1 ug/dl is acceptable as long symptoms have resolved. Coco's post stimulated cortisol is 9.05 ug/dl and since he still has a number of symptoms that have not resolved, I wouldn't call his cortisol normal or within an acceptable therapeutic range that is really working for him. Was the blood drawn for this test within four to six hours of his morning dose of Vetoryl?

I sure do miss Dr. Jack Oliver. He was amazing human being who contributed so much to the study of canine adrenal steroids. He was a plethora of information which he readily shared with members and if only he were still with us to help us try to understand some of the effects of Trilsotane that still remain a mystery since his passing a few years ago. Dr. Oliver knew that while Trilostane decreased Cortisol and to a lesser degree, Aldosterone, he also knew that it increased the steroid precursors. What he didn't know for sure is whether those increased precursors were responsible for the return of clinical signs. Many years have passed since Dr. Oliver shared that information with the public and unfortunately I have been unable to find any studies that prove or disprove his theory. I'm beginning to believe that there are dogs who will never see complete resolution of all symptoms due to the increase in steroid precursors. If you haven't read Dr. Oliver's paper(s), here's an excerpt from his paper entitled " Steroid Profiles in the Diagnosis of Canine Adrenal Disorders":


Trilostane. Enzyme inhibition by trilostane occurs for 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, but also for 11-beta hydroxylase. Thus, 11-deoxycortisol levels build-up in dogs treated with trilostane. It is also apparent that other intermediate steroid levels increase (androstenedione, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and progesterone) in dogs treated with trilostane,which could be due to the 11-beta hydroxylase inhibition, and possibly 21-hydroxylase enzyme inhibition. The reason why only 11-deoxycortisol levels were increased in the above study may be due to the length of trilostane exposure (3-7 weeks), compared to dogs that are exposed to trilostane for extended periods. Trilostane reportedly offers effective control of Cushing’s syndrome, but the long-term effects of the elevated intermediate steroids remain ill-defined. Some dogs do have return of clinical signs of Cushing’s syndrome while on trilostane. Because trilostane seems to pre-dispose dogs to increased adrenal toxicity with mitotane, an acute switch from trilostane to mitotane treatment should not be done.

I don't believe it's possible for your vet to make a decision on Lysodren dosing until Coco's cortisol and symptoms have been assessed after the 30 day washout period. There is a huge difference in how you would approach treatment in a dog whose cortisol levels have soared and overt symptoms have returned at the end of 30 days vs a dog with no movement in cortisol and no change in symptoms. As I recall, my own two cushdogs, who went through a washout period after treating with Trilostane, were perfect examples of how every dog is different. Jojo's cortisol levels rose quickly as did his symptoms in 30 days, while it took two to three months for Lulu's levels to rise and for her to become overtly symptomatic. I kept hearing Dr. Oliver's words in my head so I wasn't comfortable starting any Lysodren regimen until the 30 days was up and were overtly symptomatic again. Both of my dogs eventually looked like the poster dogs for cushing's again but there have been more than a few members who have discontinued treatment and their dogs never became cushingoid again and were declared to be in remission. You just never know.

Glynda

[infoviewer]

Hey Guys: CoCo is doing pretty good. I am going back to my regular vet. I was just not comfortable with the specialist and just not convenient for me to go to it. My regular vet can do everything she can do. CoCo's stools have cleared up. He has gained weight. He still has the muscle wasting and hair loss. I suppose that is from the intermediate hormones. His last cortisol was 6.7. My regular vet is going to do the total thyroid Monday, since we tapered him off to make sure he does not need to start it back. I have read all of Dr. Oliver's papers that I can fiind. My regular vet was taught by him and another vet in the office went to UTK. I will do the 30 day wash out of Trilostane and go from there I guess. I really don't know what the increased hormones cause. I started back with the Melatonin and lignans, don't know why I quit, I had started those when CoCo was first diagnosed in 2011 after reading Dr. Oliver's papers. His Estradiol, Progesterone and 17 OH Progesterone were increased. UT said it indicated presence of increased adrenal and/or gonadal activity. Thanks so much for caring. Hope all furbabies are doing good. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey All: CoCo is still doing okay. Did not take him for the full thyroid panel. His bowel were a little soft on Monday for some reason and then he got diarrhea for a couple of days, so I just decided to feed him and not give him anything else and see what happens. His stool has cleared up and he is doing better. His last Vetoryl was 8/18. He will have the full thyroid panel on 9/9 if all goes well and I guess I will just go from there and see if he needs the thyroid medicine again. I guess he will have the ACTH at the end of 30 days off the Vetoryl. I am just going to take it a day at the time and treat the symptoms if I can. Hope all furbabies are doing well. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Everyone: At the end of 30 days with CoCo off Vetoryl, do I have to give him Vetoryl before the vet does the test for cortisol on him. There are 3 vets in that office, but I know you'll have seen lots more Cushing dogs. CoCo is still about the same, did have a red eye and I took him to the vet and no scratch, just got an antibiotic drop and it was better in one day. His ears have lost all their hair and are slick, but don't seem to bother him. I guess the hair loss is due to the increased hormones. My regular vet usually gives dogs the Lysodren so maybe he knows what to do if I decide to go that route. CoCo is pretty weak and seems to stumble a lot if he tries to chase squirrels and run and bark at people running on the street. He is in an enclosed area so no chance of catching them. I am just really at odds what to do at the end of 30 days. I will get more advice here when that time comes. Love this forum. Love, Joanne

[addy]

Hi JoAnne,

If Coco has been off Vetoryl you would not want to give him a dose before his ACTH test. The point of the ACTH test in Coco's case is to see where his cortisol is currently prior to starting Lysodren after a 30 day wash out period.

As for the ears, it may have nothing to do with his sex hormones. Are you sure he does not have yeast or something else going on with his ears? Maybe a bacteria infection?

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi JoAnne,

Yes, he will need an ACTH before starting either of the meds. If his cortisol is not high and he isn't showing strong signs, I would not start either right now.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Thanks guys. I knew you'll would know. Hoping his cortisol will not be too high. He is not drinking much water yet, does like to eat, but dachshunds are usually greedy and he always has been. He looks bad because of the hair loss, but he seems to be doing pretty good, just minor things like the red eye and he never complains about anything. Poops are actually doing ok, so sure don't want to start Lysodren and cause an upset there, but seems like it clears up pretty quickly if I figure out what is causing it. His 17 OH progesterone was quit high on his hormone panel, don't know what it controls or why, but guess the Trilostane caused it, some vets think it is a problem and others think it is insignificant. He seems to be doing ok without medications for now, but you know these little dogs can change overnight especially when they age as we humans can. I hope your puppies are doing ok, and I feel so lucky to be able to get on this forum and find so much good info. Thanks so much. Love, Joanne

[molly muffin]

Hi JoAnne,

That would be great if CoCo doesn't actually need any treatment right now. A nice break from drugs can do wonders sometimes. Glad to hear his poops are doing pretty good now too. That was such a worry.
Here's hoping for an awesome stim test!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Thanks Sharlene: CoCo seems to be doing better. I am just waiting for the fall out. Just watching him closely. He does not know he is weak and tries to go too fast, especially if he sees a lizard or people jogging and I am afraid he will break his tiny leg trying to catch them. Glad Molly is still doing well and hope the poops have settled down since she is home. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Hi JoAnne,

I saw your question on my thread. I really don't have a lot of experience about skin and hair. I kept asking if Zoe had yeast and even the derm vet just pooed it all. Then after her surgery, I read that when you shave a dog, for surgery for example, the yeast can get under the skin and get bad which is what I think happened to Zoe. Thank goodness our groomer told me she had dandruff scales and yeast because no doctors told me that although I repeatedly asked- just that she had dry skin and oily skin spots. I remember my neighbor saying "who do you believe the groomer or the IMS"? I flatly replied "the groomer" and my neighbor was stunned. So I took matters into my own hands and went on DVM360 website and other sites and started reading and asking questions. Also, Lori had an article of a case study from Dechra that I kept rereading. Once I knew what to look for it was all there- on her skin.

My advice would be don't always assume all hair loss is from Cushings not being controlled. Carefully check their bodies and skin and hair. Cush pups can lose hair from mites, skin infections, yeast, many things can contribute to hair loss. Once I started treating her skin with Ketochlor, it got a lot worse before it got better which was even scarier but I read that could be the case.

Go on DVM360 and read everything you can about skin issues to see if anything matches what you see on Coco.


Hugs

[infoviewer]

Thanks Addy: I guess CoCo could have any of it, although no lesions or bumps, just hair loss and does have a bad smell sometimes and vet said it was hormonal since his hormones are messed up, so could be since no itching or redness, but now his ears have no hair and I guess that could be mites, but he does not shake his head like something in his ears. The only dermatologist is to far for me to go all the time. It does not seem to bother him, just hate he lost a lot of his black shiny hair. DVM60 has a lot of info on it. Another place for me to get information. Again thanks a lot. So glad Zoe is doing well. It is a miracle since she has had a lot of problems. I know it is because you have found out everything to help her. You are the miracle worker. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Zoe had a bad smell, too, JoAnne. She does not have it any more;)

She had no lesions, no oozing, no itchiness, no red spots. But she did have brown crud on her feet and tail and back legs and white scales down at her hair line and dandruff as well, the little hair she had looked greasy. You could see little brown spots on her pink skin and she had small hard what looked like pimples but were not.

She did not itch at all.

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: CoCo did have white flakes for awhile, but does not anymore
and just really has thin hair and it is dry and dull looking, has lost a little on the back of his back legs, thin on his head and torso and barely grew back where shaved on belly and part way up both sides. His hair actually does not have a bad smell. I guess it is hormonal like the vet says and he has it even after he has a bath with conditioner and sometimes dog cologne. I used to use Skin So Soft on him before the Cushings, but not so much now since he hates it so and it is oil and any kind of oil or fat gives him soft stools even on the skin, I guess he licks it. Have to watch everything with these little dogs. Glad Zoe's hair is growing in, that is one less worry for you. Have a happy weekend. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey All: Just got back from the vet. Took CoCo for a full thyroid panel and asked them to go ahead and do a diabetes since they had the blood. He has diabetes, on insulin twice a day. I guess he is going to have every disease there is. Injection twice a day. Has to go for a glucose curve in two weeks to make sure he is getting the right amount of insulin. I guess I will just concentrate on treating the diabetes now. Love, JoAnne

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh my, I am so sorry to hear that Coco has diabetes. We have a sister forum and I am sure that they can help with the diabetes, here's their link: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum

Love and hugs, Lori

[infoviewer]

Thanks Lori, I was just looking for that. I really don't know if I am up for this. He was in such bad shape I stopped all the Cushing medicine and his thyroid medicine. I wonder if that had an affect on his blood sugar. Two months ago his glucose was 131, how could it be in the 400s now. I stopped his Vetoryl and thyroid medicine because the Vetoryl caused his hormones to increase and now this. This is really confusing with him having to have insulin injections twice a day. Peculiar that I stopped the Cushiing medicine 20 days ago and now he has diabetes. I have a new computer so hope I can get on the diabetes forum. Thanks again, JoAnne

[addy]

Oh , JoAnne, I can’t believe it after all the testing he has had. What made you ask them to test for diabetes? I’m at work and saw your post so this is short.

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: He has been so skinny and has not been able to keep weight on so I figured it was diabetes or thyroid so I went for the full thyroid panel and told the vet since he had the blood to test for diabetes and he came back with tears in his eyes and said bad news again. Oh well I am at a loss. I had taken CoCo off the Trilostane and thyroid medicine and wonder if this caused it. His hormones were increased so I figured taking the Trilostane off would help. I think hormones control the blood sugar so I really don't know what to do. Supposed to get Insulin twice a day and goes for the glucose curve in two weeks. I don't know what to feed him. The Hill's ID is probably a low glycemic food, but it has 77% moisture so I figure it is mostly water since water is the first ingredient. I have just been searching the internet to see if I can figure out what to do. CoCo is so thin, looks like he is starving. He had gained a pound, now has lost that. I have given him a few kibble today since he is so hungry, but they are mostly carbs probably. So glad Zoe is doing well. I so appreciate you checking on CoCo. Love, JoAnne

[Boriss McCall]

oh no... I am so sorry. I know that is a lot to take. Hopefully the vet will help you get a handle on this quickly for Coco. :(

[k9diabetes]

Hi JoAnne. I saw your registration at K9D. I will approve your membership now so no need to complete email confirmation.

Natalie

[infoviewer]

Thank you so much Natalie. I am pretty wiped out, CoCo has Cushings, hypothyroidism and now diabetes. Gave him his first insulin shot tonight. Trying to figure out the best food to feed him. We have been feeding him Hill's prescription ID which is probably ok since it is probably pretty low glycemic food, he has stomach trouble and I was hoping to start feeding him something else since he is so skinny. He is pretty beat up, but never complains. I will be glad to get any information that I can since I went to get a full thyroid panel to see if he really needed the thyroid medication and asked them to do a diabetic screen since he was so thin and it was positive. Thanks again, JoAnne

[addy]

Okay, I'm home now. I was so concerned when I saw your post but was having a really hard day at work and could not post much.
Im glad you signed up for our sister site, they are amazing and I know Judi will be along to talk to you.

When Zoe had her ultra sound and the IMS said she had abnormalities in her pancreas she said "we now have to be concerned because diabetes can just show up". I think what she was trying to say is sometimes when the Cush pups have chronic pancreatitis they can be prone to diabetes as well and it just "arrives" so to speak. I have tried not to think about what she said to me along with the other umpteen things wrong with my Zoe:(

Point is- who knows why diabetes now showed up, I guess it can just do that but I do not know much about it.

I know it is a lot to take in.:(:(:(

aww sweetie, I am so sorry you have so much on your plate but I know Natalie can help you.:)

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Addy: I am kind of just wiped out right now. This poor little dog has had so much done to him and he is so tough, never complains. Never even flinches. It is amazing that I stopped all his medications and he gets diabetes, hard to understand. He had a glucose in 6/13 and it was 131, how could this happen in 3 months. Oh well I guess I have my work cut out for me. I so appreciate this forum and I know it will be the same at the diabetes forum. Love, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Oh JoAnne!! Sorry I just finished work and I have really wanted to be able to get on here and give you a big hug all day long.
I am like Addy and Amy, just can't believe after Everything that this has come up now.
I'd say yes, get the diabetes under control first and then go from their. I know Natalie and the gang will help you out too, just like us here.
And this doesn't mean you get to leave us either you know :) We're family! You and Coco, we'll be wanting regular updates too. LOL
I know you must be exhausted and even discouraged with all of this going on.
Coco is just awesome to deal with everything so well, but got to get that weight back up.

Hang in there!
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Sharlene and all. I am going to get on the diabetes forum and get all the information I can. I guess Cushings and diabetes go hand and hand sometimes. Just puzzling that his glucose went up so much in 3 months, but maybe we will get a handle on it and then work on Cushing again. I hope Molly's poops are better. Hope your birthday party went well and Molly is back home safe and happy. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much for your concern Amy. I hope Boris is doing ok on his Trilostane. CoCo has had so many problems in the last six months. He was on the Vetoryl for a year and a half and seemed to do ok, but had a hormone level and his hormones were increased so we stopped the Vetoryl and thyroid medication 20 days ago and now the poor little fellow has diabetes. He had a 131 glucose in June and it was over 400 yesterday so don't know how that happened, but we just have to deal with it the best we can. Now waiting to see if he still has hypothyroidism and it is not as hard to control as diabetes and Cushings. Thanks again for caring. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

Aw, JoAnne,

Poor Coco and poor mom....so much on your plates. I know Natalie and her group will help you a great deal to be the best diabetes mom you can be and they will take very good care of both you and Coco. HOWEVER, you cannot stay away from us now. Nope. We know where to find you on that site so don't even try! :p

My understanding of diabetes is that it often comes on very fast out of the blue. I know two people, brother and sister, who were diagnosed in early adulthood and both of them were fine one day and in the hospital the next, the woman in a diabetic coma. All she remembers of that day is that she felt "off" at work then had a massive headache suddenly and woke up in the hospital. We have seen it come on almost overnight with cush pups here, too.

The thing to keep in mind is that hypothyroidism and Cushing's are both endocrine system disorders.....as is diabetes. It seems when one part of the endocrine system gets out of balance, that imbalance seems to "spread" through the whole system, affecting many organs like the pancreas, thyroid, adrenals at the same time. Squirt developing diabetes is riding at the forefront of my mind these days since she's off all her meds.....and to be perfectly honest, diabetes scares the living crap outta me. Not the disease itself but giving shots. I shake so badly I would cause her pain over and over and over. The members that tackle this condition have my utmost admiration. ;)

Hope he is doing well this morning and you, too, sweetie. You are a wonderful mom and Coco is so lucky to have you on his team.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

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Thanks so much Leslie. CoCo seems ok, I am the one that is a basket case. He has already had his insulin this morning. I am concerned about what to feed him. The vet said just continue to feed him the Hill's ID and it is probably pretty low glycemic since I think it has a lot of water in it. I am really just heartbroken that he has to suffer with this and wonder if I caused it by taking him off his the Vetoryl. He has been off siince 8/18 and then again the Vetoryl may have caused it since it raised the hormones. We will never know, I will just have to try to take care of him the best that I can. He had gotten so thin in the past week and he had gone to the vet for a full thyroid panel so I asked the vet to do the diabetes test on him. He just takes everything in stride, never complains about anything. I just don't want him to suffer and he seems to still do what dogs do. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Just stopping by to give you a hug and to tell you don't get too comfortable over their on K9 Diabetes- we may get jealous:D:D:D

Oh JoAnne, Coco is a trooper for sure and he is one lucky puppy to have you for his mommy.

I would be a basket case too.

[infoviewer]

Thanks Addy: CoCo begs for food most of the day. He did this with Cushings, but it did not seem so hard to figure out what to feed him. He is so thin and the ID food does not have much fat and probably is pretty low glycemic, but I think he needs to gain a little weight and have some food that satisfies him and I have not figured it out yet. With his stomach so easy to get upset it is really a problem and I know food is part of the blood sugar treatment, I just cannot figure out which one, but hopefully I will. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

I bet K9 Diabetes will have suggestions about food. I still am hoping Judy stops by. Her Jenny is diabetic. I'm sneaking in from work;)

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: Does Jenny's dog have diabetes and cushings and CoCo may really have thyriod disease. Very hard to treat a dog with so many things and he is so thin. I am really pretty down with this and CoCo begs for food most of the day and he is never satisfied. I work at home, so very distracting to try to satisfy him, but maybe I will find a solution. Of course the vets at the hospital i take him too think he has no quality of life. Really discouraged, but I know Zoe has had so many things and she has pulled out, so that gives me hope. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Of course the vets at the hospital i take him too think he has no quality of life.

Why- what did they say to you? :(:(

How do they know, do they live with him?

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Hey Addy: Of course he has had his food and insulin and is playing with his crying dog toy. Gives me a little hope when I see him playing. Hugs, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Hey Addy: He looks so bad, no hair and so thin with his spine showing that they think he is almost dead so they are trying to prepare me I guess. They have treated him since he was 6 weeks old and they called him the biter and he had to wear a mussel and most were afraid of him so I guess seeing him like he looks now is quite a shock. You would think they wanted to keep him alive, it was $500.00 yesterday. I guess they know how much more it is going to cost. Who knows, CoCo is so docile when he is there, not anything like he used to be. I just ignore them and tell them I will know if I have to put him down and I may have to if he gets down or suffers, we never know what life hands us. Love, JoAnne

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Hey all: Does anyone know if I can still give CoCo the Melatonin and Lignans since I am giving him the insulin. I tried to find it on line, but was not successful. I think Melatonin and Lidnans are pretty benign and you can give anything with them, just not sure. Love, JoAnne

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Hey all: I just found on the internet that Melatonin could raise blood sugar in diabetics. I guess I won't give it to CoCo. Maybe he will learn to sleep past 3:30. Love, JoAnne

[frijole]

Hang in there. I know it's been a rough week (or two).. Diabetic dogs can lead very happy lives. Are you still off of the cush meds while you treat? It should be interesting to see if the insulin does the trick and you don't need the cush meds - we've seen dogs misdiagnosed before. The fine folks on the other board will get you through all of that thank God.

My brother, mom and aunt all had diabetic schnauzers - treated for years. Ups and downs but way more ups than downs so don't lose the faith. I can't recall whether you are going to an IMS or regular vet but if it truly is a combo of diabetes and cushings you might seek advice from an IMS as it can be delicate to find the right balance.

But just take it a day at a time and never forget to enjoy every day you have with dear Coco. Hugs, Kim

[molly muffin]

I'm no good at the food option issues. :(

You'll know when Coco is ready to not try any more. Playing with his toy though sounds like he is a pretty happy guy still though. Vets don't get to see the whole picture, just the one they get from lab results and vet visits. It's not the whole story or even the majority of the story. So..pffft on that.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[infoviewer]

Hey all: CoCo is doing ok. He begs for food a lot, but I think that is a lot of habit and me. If I am not here he does not beg. He knows I am weak when he looks at me with those sweet brown eyes. I was taking him to a Cushing specialist IM, but we did not like her. Did not consider individual dogs, just the disease and it was a big hospital with lots of specialists, but not convenient for me to get to, most of the time I had to be there all day long and me and the dog were both sick when we got home, so I took him back to his vet that had treated him all his life and Dr. Oliver was his professor at UT and all of the vets at his hospital graduated from UT and CoCo and me were familiar with them and they talked to me not at me. The Cushiing vet also had the opinion dogs only lived 18 months to a year with Cushings so that was a real downer. CoCo really looks worse than he is with his hair and weight loss so most vets think he is at death's door, but I hope I know when he is suffering and I can do the right thing. I am going to try to get his diabetes regulated before I start him on Lysodren. I really don't know what to do about the Cushings. Going to just take it a day at the time. I wish I had just told my vet I would try to see if I could control his blood sugar with food and watching him carefully without starting the insulin, but I was in shock when his vet came in almost crying to tell me the bad news. I guess you have to continue insulin once you start it. Does not bother CoCo, he never flinches. I won't leave this forum, so much information and lovely people and dogs here, it feels like home.Love, JoAnne

[Trish]

Oh dearie me, not diabetes for Coco too... still I think it might be a good thing now you have found it you can go about sorting it out and helping Coco feel better. So frustrated for you Joanne, you guys have been through so much. I hope the insulin gets little Coco regulated quick smart, I am sure you will do it well :):) xx

[infoviewer]

Hey Trish: Yes CoCo has cushings, hypothyroidism and now diabetes, should be a good trip for us, concerned about the food since it can raise or lower sugar. Thanks for caring. Love, JoAnne

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Hi JoAnne: diabetes in dogs is like Type 1 in a human so I'm very glad Coco is handling the insulin shots without flinching and that you are giving the shots.

dogs need the shots unfortunately.

I'm sorry it has been such a rough couple of weeks. I know my vet said it is the cushings that makes my Jenny's spine seem to be more visible. it sucks Judi

[infoviewer]

Yes Judi, it really sucks, I was just sitting thinking of not treating CoCo, the glucose curve is going to be terrible for him, sticking him so many times and then having to stick him all the time to make sure his blood sugar is controlled. He is so thin and sick, I don't know if he can tolerate being stuck so many times. Cushings is mostly just taking a pill. Diabetes is going to be painful for him. I did not think so much about him being stuck so many times when the vet told me, just thinking of saving CoCo and said treat him. Now I am thinking of the sticks to get blood all the time. The insulin injections bother him, but sticking for blood may. Do they have to be suck every day? It is a bummer Judi. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Hey JoAnne,

It is my understanding that while you may attempt to control diabetes in cats by diet, it is not an option for dogs and that they need insulin. The only thing I found so far was a low fiber, high calorie recommendation for dogs just diagnosed that also have weight loss but I am not so sure of the source so hesitate to give you the link.

Gotta run, always thinking of you. I am sure Judi will be back to answer your question

[infoviewer]

Leslie: I am so concerned about treating the diabetes without treating the cushings. I was so shocked when the vet said diabetes and insulin shots, that I just said treat him. The insulin injections are not a problem for him, but I was just thinking of the glucose curve and how many times he will have to be stuck and stuck so many times to get blood to make sure his blood sugar is ok every day. I wonder if he could just have an ACTH and maybe started on the Lysodren maintenance. Stopping the Vetoryl probably caused the diabetes to show up and Vetoryl probably caused the diabetes. I know you know so much about Cushings and medications. I had been giving him Melatonin and I found a site that said it caused blood sugar to rise in humans so stopped that for CoCo. Now that I have thought about everything for two days it is going to be a real pain for CoCo to be stuck so many times. The Cushings and weight loss have really caused him to be weak. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

Addy: It was sprung on me so suddenly although I thought he could have diabetes, I really was not thinking about all the glucose curves and sticks for blood sugar control, unlike Cushing not so many blood draws. I was just thinking of treating the diabetes and not the Cushings, now not so sure what to do. These diseases are not easy and not easy to think what to do. I don't want to hurt CoCo and I know they can go blind with diabetes, he already has nuclear sclerosis and cataracts. I was so brave a couple of days ago now not so sure. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

Vetoryl probably caused the diabetes

Aww sweetie, I don't think we know that. Excerpt from article on DVM 360


Dogs

Dogs tend to develop insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, often referred to as type 1 diabetes, and they require insulin for the rest of their lives. Canine diabetes is thought to result from an immune-mediated destruction of the pancreatic beta cells, which renders them unable to produce enough insulin. A University of Queensland study supports this idea. Researchers found that more than 50% of diabetic dogs tested positive for pancreatic islet cell antibodies, suggesting the response was mediated by the immune system.3 Studies have also shown that about 28% of dogs with diabetes have a history of severe or chronic pancreatitis.3


http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=695179&sk=&date=&pageID=4

A few dogs can develop a noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, or type 2 diabetes, which results from a lack of tissue-cell responsiveness to insulin, leading to beta cell exhaustion. This occurs when the pancreas tries to accommodate the chronic demand for insulin.

Female dogs can also have gestational diabetes during diestrus or pregnancy that may be related to the effects of progesterone. Although this diabetic state might resolve, many dogs still require insulin after giving birth or being spayed.

Canine diabetes is most commonly seen in older dogs, spayed females, and certain breeds with a genetic predisposition for the disease, such as keeshonds, Samoyeds, Australian terriers, and miniature poodles. Standard and miniature schnauzers, spitz, fox terriers, bichon frise, Cairn terriers, and Siberian huskies may also be at elevated risk for developing diabetes.6

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi JoAnne,

If I were you, I would concentrate on getting the diabetes under control first and foremost. We know without a doubt diabetes can and does get very bad very quickly if not controlled with insulin. Of the three conditions Coco is dealing with, the diabetes is by far the more serious and demands your attention now.

Please do not blame yourself for the appearance of the diabetes. The drugs used to treat Cushing's do not, as far as I know, cause diabetes- neither one. If memory serves, tho, one of them is preferred for pups who have both diabetes and Cushing's. K9diabetes can tell you if my memory is right and if so which drug is preferred. BUT do not blame yourself. Coco has been dealt a rotten hand but that is NOT your fault. You are a great mom who is doing all she can to give your baby the best life possible for as long as possible.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[spdd]

Just dropping by to wish you all the best with Coco... these dogs keep us on our toes constantly. One thing it seems after another.

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Joanne: for the curves at the vet I don't think it is so bad to test for the blood sugar. If and when you start using Lysodren you may at least want to test twice a day before giving insulin because that is when my Jenny went to low.

The lysodren lowered her cortisol which meant less insulin was needed and I wasn't testing and didn't know. She went as low as 40 and I'm really lucky she didn't have seizures or die.

I test Jenny on the lip. They have fewer nerve endings there. I tested my own finger a few times. It stung for about 10 minutes then went away. I give Jenny special treats so she tolerates the testing now.

I will tell you that once you get Coco's blood sugar under control he should gain some weight. It is such a roller coaster ride and you are doing great. I remember being a basket case when Jenny was first diagnosed with both. It gets easier. honest. hugs, Judi

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much guys. I have kind of calmed down. It is hard to see these little dogs continue to go down. CoCo never complains. He is such a strong little dog. Is not begging for food as much today.Has only had 5 insulin injections. I am wondering if that is the reason. We watch everything he does. Maybe he will feel better with the insulin. I have to read up on it. I know they can get hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia, so probably need to get some glucose tablets. Hope all furbabies are doing well. Love, JoAnne

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

get some Karo syrup or honey. If dogs go low it is recommended we rub that on their gums. I also let Jenny just lick some off of my fingers.

The syrup or honey gets in the system right away to quick bring the blood sugar up. Then the experienced people recommend a carby treat (like a biscuit) to keep the blood sugar up after the Karo or honey does the trick.

Some dogs almost know if their blood sugar goes too low. Jenny has never come to me but if she reads low and I put some syrup on my finger she laps it right down like she knows she needs it.

[frijole]

Re the pain of the shots. I babysit my mom's dog alot and it becomes 2nd nature and the dog does not flinch at all. Neither does my aunt's and he has had diabetes for about 5 yrs now. Looks great and has his eyesight. It's all about getting the numbers right/insulin amount. Trust me Coco will grow accustomed to the shot. My aunt gives her Baxter a treat after each shot and he reminds her when it's time for his shot. Adorable. Kim

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much for the info, CoCo does not flinch when he gets the insulin injections. I am just dreading the glucose curve for him, he is such a small dog and his ears bleed so freely, all the hair is off them and they look like black leather. He takes a pill for vasculitis. I know that little lancet hurts, just dreading that for him more than the insulin injections. I am sure he will handle it like a trooper, he has so far. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

hugs for you and Coco you will both be fine, you just wait and see.:)

We will hold your hand, give you hugs, anything you need.:):):)

Sometimes we dread things and it turns out, the pups are fine about it. When we first had to give Zoe 12 different eye drops I freaked out, how would I do it, she kept trying to bite me:rolleyes:

After a whole bunch of jack pot rewards, she would stand and wait at the bathroom door for her eye drops and she knew when she should have them. She lifted her little head up for the drops, she did that for 12 medications a day, some of them given 3-4 times a day.
I had to have chart to remember them all. Freaked us out more than it did her after she got used to it.

Coco is food motivated- use it to your advantage.:):)

[infoviewer]

Addy: I know what you mean about the food, that is what we do after the insulin injection. I think the glucose curve lasts 10 hours and he has to be stuck ever 2 hours and I know that little lancet hurts for a second, but he will be ok. Our problem is that he cannot eat until we take him to the vet at 8 and he gets up at 3. He is small, but his bark is loud, poor us. . Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

When I was first diagnosed with Hypoglycemia - which is low blood sugars, the opposite of Diabetes - I had to test my sugar 7 times a day. At first my fingertips got very sore but over time they didn't bother me near as much. I had to learn to prick the sides of the finger, not the pad, and it was much better.

When I have mentioned that canine diabetes scares me, I have been told the same thing about the lips - there are very few nerve endings in the lips so they feel very little pain with the lancet. When I'm told this, all I can think of is how badly it hurts when I bite my lip by accident! :eek::D Humans must have gotten the nerves dogs didn't in the lips! :)

You are doing just fine, Mom. Our sweet little guy couldn't be in better hands.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[infoviewer]

Hey Leslie: I feel pretty distraught and helpless. I just weighed CoCo because he looked so frail and weak. He is eating more and still losing. Has lost down to 10 pounds 4 ounces. I don't believe vets know too much about diabetes or cushings. He just continues to get weaker.I am feeding him more, but does not seem to be helping. He is still eating, but just laying. I am at a loss what to do. He is so weak and frail most of the vets think I should put him down, but I just keep trying to help him. Love, JoAnne

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

duplicate whoops

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

JoAnne: hang in there. Once his insulin is under control he will get his weight back Jenny did. She got her personality back too.

I wanted to reassure you also that at my vet, when they do a curve. They pull the blood with a syringe which I don't think stings a dog like a lancet prick would.

I had a lot of well meaning people suggest I should put Jenny out of her misery in 2011 when she was first diagnosed with both diseases and seemed so frail.

here is my blind girl, growling screeching and playing tug of war with me this winter when I got home from work.

well I can't get it to work, but trust me she is rowdy now, everyone comments on how good she looks and acts.
don't give up

[infoviewer]

Thanks so much Judi, I needed that so bad. I am a basket case, much more than with the Cushings. I have been wonderiing if starting CoCo on Lysodren would bring his blood sugar down and also work on the Cushings. I did the washout from Vetoryl to start on Lysodren and when doctor checked his thyroid, he checked and found the diabetes. Seems like Lysodren would treat both. Monday, so I have not had very long to process everything. The Vetoryl only helped the Cortisol, but Lysodren helps all. I am just so confused and my little dog is so sick. Love, JoAnne

[infoviewer]

It just seems like it would be easier to treat the Cushings than the diabetes. Me and my husband are in our 70s and still work, so the diabetes just seems like it is going to be too difficult for us. I appreciate all the information I get from this forum and the diabetes forum. Thanks, JoAnne

[molly muffin]

Oh JoAnne, sweetie, you need many, many great big hugs. You are trying your best for Coco and I know this is both frustrating and heartbreaking for you. It would be for me too, for all of us.
We love you and we love Coco.
hugs,
sharlene and molly muffin

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

JoAnne: this is very overwhelming I know. But the lysodren won't help the diabetes. Coco has to get the insulin shots.

After he starts on lysodren though you may be able to reduce the amount of insulin he needs.

To me, the diabetes is less scary than the cushings! :) It is a hassle to make sure I am home every 12 hours, but once you figure out their insulin dose the diabetes is very manageable.

You are just taking in a ton of information in a short period of time. Coco will be Coco again. Our dogs are tough! and you are doing just great. hugs, Judi

[addy]

Sweetie, I wish with all my might I could get on a plane and head on down to you and just hold your hand and be there for you.

You have been an amazing mom and have tried so hard and fought so hard for Coco. The last few months have been so hard for you all, you must be exhausted from the worry and then you are handed this. Of course you are a basket case how could you not be?

We do love you and Coco, you both mean a lot to all of us. We are here no matter what.

Maybe it is better to not think ahead. Maybe it is better for baby steps now. What do you need to get through today? What does Coco need to get through today?

Let's break it down in to small, small steps and not think past that for it is too overwhelming.

Let us just do what we need to do today, dont worry about what needs to be done tomorrow okay?

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, JoAnne,

I started a post to you yesterday, after I read your latest post, encouraging you to pursue the diabetes treatment....but I couldn't get through writing it, I couldn't tell you to do something that you may know is more than you or Coco can handle. Instead I was consumed with empathy for you as I am in the same spot with Squirt. All I could do was cry for us both, for Coco, for Squirt, for so many here who are facing the same fears, who are feeling the same helplessness. Like Addy, I wish I could just sit on the couch with you, our arms around each other, and sob together.

Please be good to yourself, JoAnne, and know you have many people right by your side who understand more than we wish what you are going through.
Hugs and gentle belly rubs,
Leslie and the gang

[Trish]

Hi Joanne and Coco!

Like anything, getting used to a new normal can be tricky, upsetting and frustrating! But before long you will be managing this like a pro, :)especially with all the good advice available here and on the diabetes forum.

I hope things are becoming easier for you all, once you see some weight going back on Coco you will feel better, but yes like Addy baby steps are the way to go, manage what is in front of your nose and worry about the future when it gets here!

I hope you have had a good day with your sweetie Coco xxxx

[infoviewer]

Hey all: What would I do without you'll to hold my hands. CoCo is hanging in. He is the same just slower. I was putting groceries up yesterday and put a roast on the bottom shelf of the refrigerator and turned to get something else and left the refrigerator door open. Turned back around and he had the roast and had got it out of the package and was fighting for it with all his strength. It took all my strength to get it from him. I guess he got a bite or two of it. I gave him Pepto and a metronidazole and he had a little soft stool, but is fine so far this morning. It was my fault. He has always been so bad about food. I just have to be more careful, funny that he picked the raw meat, guess there was no cantaloupe. Just a smile for all this morning between the tears. Love, JoAnne

[addy]

LOL JoAnne, I am sitting here with a horrible migraine but I had to see if you posted so when I read this, I'm thinking if Coco is helping himself to pot roast that has to be a good sign:D:D:D:D:D

Made my day:):):):)

[infoviewer]

Hey all: My vet just called and CoCo does not have hypothyroidism now, which is good. And the vet said we might could start a maintenance dose of Lysodren of course after the testing and if we could get everything under control, he might not have to have the insulin shots. Of course he doesn't even flinch when he gets them. The vet was laughing about the pot roast and it was Angus beef so it was probably good, but I will never know. Love, JoiAnne

[infoviewer]

I am just wondering if the Lysodren can be started on maintenance without the loading. I know the longer he is off the cushings medicine, the higher his cortisol will go. I am sure the cortisol rising is because I took him off the Trilostane and the diabetes showed up because of high cortisol, but four vets told me to do it after the hormone levels were so high. 30 days off the Trilostane will be 9/18. This is so complicated. If I start back on cushings medicine, his blood sugar will go down which is scarier than cushings. I guess it would have been better if the vet had not found the diabetes before I started Lysodren. Love, JoAnne

[Squirt's Mom]

It's been done that way, no loading, and it has worked for some but it took a looooong time for the cortisol to come down into range, if it would. The dogs I know of who took this approach had problems that caused concerns with the loading - most of them seemed to have digestive issues if memory serves. It's worth discussing with your vet. It may be better for the diabetes to load and get the cortisol down more quickly. ;)

[infoviewer]

Thanks Leslie. I guess I will just worry about the diabetes for now.
Love, JoAnne